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Hello all,
This in regards to some disagreements lately in a few threads, notably the "Why Sam Raimi doesn't like Venom thread". The arguments (on all sides) have primarily boiled down to opinions (including Raimi's) on who looks cool and who, looks aside, is a good character with the only agreement being that Doc Ock, Green Goblin, and Venom are the three main Spiderman villains.

My poll is simple. Which villains look cool (i.e. are eye candy)? If there is enough interest, maybe I'll make a poll asking which of these Big Three have character and substance.

They all look cool, and all have great characters(minus Venom post-80s).

So vote TK! I'm half trying to prove a point to 'Doc Ock' that not only Venom looks cool.

Originally posted by werehawk
So vote TK! I'm half trying to prove a point to 'Doc Ock' that not only Venom looks cool.

My choice isn't up there.

I believe all three of those villains are eye candy. In fact, I'm sure that the main reason why they have young fans is because of their appearances and abilities.

Originally posted by werehawk
So vote TK! I'm half trying to prove a point to 'Doc Ock' that not only Venom looks cool.

I just read the Raimi hates Venom thread. I don't think that was ever in denial. At least not entirely. The villains as they were drawn in Stan Lee's day looked rather goofy. It was Stan's fab writing of them that made them a success.

The arguement was that the main reason Venom is liked is because he's eye candy.

Originally posted by Keehar
I just read the Raimi hates Venom thread. I don't think that was ever in denial. At least not entirely. The villains as they were drawn in Stan Lee's day looked rather goofy. It was Stan's fab writing of them that made them a success.

The arguement was that the main reason Venom is liked is because he's eye candy.

That's it exactly! I mean lets compare the classic looks to the more modern stuff from the last couple of decades:


http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll261/Ocklairscans/droc00.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e345/DoctorOck/WOD3.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll261/Ocklairscans/asm026lastpage.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll261/Ocklairscans/Thunderbolts_120__Green_Goblin_by_S.jpg


The more modern renditions of Ock and Goblin are certainly pleasing to the eye. But nobody could accuse them of being eye candy back when they were created. No way.

Originally posted by Doc Ock
But nobody could accuse them of being eye candy back when they were created. No way.

Actually I can. Or at least my 13-year-old self of when I first got to know Doc Ock can. I really found his character visually appealing right away. Arms especially but costume too. And he was my favorite Marvel action figure (Secret Wars set), even more than Spiderman.

As for Green Goblin, no arguments at all. Except that I still find his costume lame (but not as lame as Raimi's version).

Originally posted by werehawk
Actually I can. Or at least my 13-year-old self of when I first got to know Doc Ock can. I really found his character visually appealing right away. Arms especially but costume too. And he was my favorite Marvel action figure (Secret Wars set), even more than Spiderman.

Well, I can't argue with you there. That is your opinion. Although I think it's rather cool that you liked classic Ock for both reasons. I always loved the tentacles as well, and how he was almost like a giant spider himself. Not many of the villains could fight Spidey on a wall, or follow him up a wall, or building in wall crawling style like that.

The green spandex and orange boots didn't do much for me. But the writing of the character was superb.



I hated Harry's more. He was on a flying surfboard with a paintballer's mask on. Yeeeeesh.

Green Goblins costums was allright with Spider-man 1, But i could'nt see way they did'nt go with his costume from the comics.

My vote isn't on there, but Octupus, Green Goblin, Vulture, Mysterio...

****. Everyone who pretty much started off as some random dude and then turned into a crazy ass New York dude looks goofy as hell.

I'd say that Venom, Carnage, Lizard, and Scorpion are the most "eye candy" worthy. Lizard has a good story though with the whole "Duality" thing... but meh. Venom and Carnage are still the worst though with the latter being the weakest of the two.

you ock and goblin fans can say all that, but i believe venom is more popular with comic fans on a whole, when your new to spidey comics or don't really know alot about it, i'm sure you would think spiderman....o and venom.

Because Venom is such an aesthetically pleasing character that he's more popular. If you ask an eight year old who his favorite Spiderman character is he'll probably say Venom or Carnage. If you ask them the difference between the motifs and damages made by the Symbiotes and say, Green Goblin, they won't understand. Venom is the Halo 3 of Spiderman villains. Nice to look at and easy to understand.

Because of that he's popular, and because he's popular he's put into more mdeia, for example, Marvel vs. Capcom (Spidey for the hero, Venom for the villain). Because he's in more media he's more recognizble and the more eight year olds see him and he becomes more popular...

You're right, Venom's probably the most popular of Spidey's villains in comic fan gorups. But if you ask them why, at least 90% will say "Because he's cool". You ask them to extrapolate. they'll say that he's "Like Spiderman but a black guy".

Very few people like Venom because of what he is underneath or represents. Most fans aren't as intelligent as Darkhalen.

lol i have said in another thread why i like venom, not because if his looks, but because his similarities with spidey, venom was created because of spiderman. I agree with anybody about the venom/mac gargan thing, but eddie brock was great as venom, and i do like the fact that he wasn't actually working in the daily bugle. People get confused with that. Venom is popular because he is always been seen with spidey. Some fans of ock and goblin try to bring down venom, like on this forum. Seriously guys, there's no need. It is all opinion, my opinion is that venom is spidey's greatest enemy, and a thread like 'why sam raimi hates venom' isn't going to change it.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Because Venom is such an aesthetically pleasing character that he's more popular. If you ask an eight year old who his favorite Spiderman character is he'll probably say Venom or Carnage. If you ask them the difference between the motifs and damages made by the Symbiotes and say, Green Goblin, they won't understand. Venom is the Halo 3 of Spiderman villains. Nice to look at and easy to understand.

Because of that he's popular, and because he's popular he's put into more mdeia, for example, Marvel vs. Capcom (Spidey for the hero, Venom for the villain). Because he's in more media he's more recognizble and the more eight year olds see him and he becomes more popular...

You're right, Venom's probably the most popular of Spidey's villains in comic fan gorups. But if you ask them why, at least 90% will say "Because he's cool". You ask them to extrapolate. they'll say that he's "Like Spiderman but a black guy".

Very few people like Venom because of what he is underneath or represents. Most fans aren't as intelligent as Darkhalen.

Exactly.

Well said.

I'm sorry, forget about my post, me and darkhalen have very similair reasons why venom's our favourite. But i defo don't like venom just because he's cool.

I just don't see what's wrong with liking Venom because he's kool anyways. You can say Ock and GG have more interesting stories, but not everyone will agree to that, not because they're stupid and can't understand an in depth story but perhaps because that some readers may not be interested in the particular writing that handles Ock and GG characters. Some readers actually like the Venom stories for the writing being used, regardless of the stories' quality.

There's nothing wrong with it at all... but don't deny it's brought up for discussion.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I just don't see what's wrong with liking Venom because he's kool anyways. You can say Ock and GG have more interesting stories, but not everyone will agree to that, not because they're stupid and can't understand an in depth story but perhaps because that some readers may not be interested in the particular writing that handles Ock and GG characters. Some readers actually like the Venom stories for the writing being used, regardless of the stories' quality. well said mate.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Because Venom is such an aesthetically pleasing character that he's more popular. If you ask an eight year old who his favorite Spiderman character is he'll probably say Venom or Carnage. If you ask them the difference between the motifs and damages made by the Symbiotes and say, Green Goblin, they won't understand. Venom is the Halo 3 of Spiderman villains. Nice to look at and easy to understand.

Because of that he's popular, and because he's popular he's put into more mdeia, for example, Marvel vs. Capcom (Spidey for the hero, Venom for the villain). Because he's in more media he's more recognizble and the more eight year olds see him and he becomes more popular...

You're right, Venom's probably the most popular of Spidey's villains in comic fan gorups. But if you ask them why, at least 90% will say "Because he's cool". You ask them to extrapolate. they'll say that he's "Like Spiderman but a black guy".

Very few people like Venom because of what he is underneath or represents. Most fans aren't as intelligent as Darkhalen.

Well said.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I just don't see what's wrong with liking Venom because he's kool anyways.

I don't think anyone said it was wrong to like him because you think he's cool. I think the arguement was that deeming him cool because he looks great and has similar powers to Spider-Man doesn't make him a worthy character for a movie.

Originally posted by Keehar
The villains as they were drawn in Stan Lee's day looked rather goofy. It was Stan's fab writing of them that made them a success.

The arguement was that the main reason Venom is liked is because he's eye candy.

Yes, one argument was that the main reason Venom is liked is his looks, but along with that was the argument the Doc Ock and Goblin are NOT liked mainly for their looks (as is your opinion). That's why I posted this poll (although almost no one has voted). I know my opinion and yours and a few others, but I wanted to see what the general trend was.

And for the few of you that haven't voted because the poll doesn't have other villains, this poll has nothing to do with the other villains. Actually, my favorite-looking Spiderman villain is Swarm. The discussion (mostly in the Raimi thread) is just about these three big villains and why people like them. Plus there are only a maximum of 10 choices for a poll, so I could have only squeezed one more villain in and we could probably talk all day about top villain #4.

Non of them is an eye candy. You guys honestly believe that Venom is popular because he looks cool?? It is true that many fans like him because he's like a dark side of Spider-man but that doesn't have anything to with the way he looks, its about what he represents. And personally I like him because I like the character, and I do not really like the way he looked when he first appeared. So stop bashing the character just because lots of fans believe him to be Spider-man's arch enemy. You like Ock better? fine. You like Goblin better? Fine. But stop acting childish.

Originally posted by Wade Wilson
Non of them is an eye candy. You guys honestly believe that Venom is popular because he looks cool?? It is true that many fans like him because he's like a dark side of Spider-man but that doesn't have anything to with the way he looks, its about what he represents. And personally I like him because I like the character, and I do not really like the way he looked when he first appeared. So stop bashing the character just because lots of fans believe him to be Spider-man's arch enemy. You like Ock better? fine. You like Goblin better? Fine. But stop acting childish.

Nah.

Originally posted by Wade Wilson
Non of them is an eye candy.

You are right. I should have made a "None of the three" vote. If there are any moderators out there skulking, you could add that. If not, I will mentally tally that.

Originally posted by Wade Wilson
Non of them is an eye candy. You guys honestly believe that Venom is popular because he looks cool?? It is true that many fans like him because he's like a dark side of Spider-man but that doesn't have anything to with the way he looks, its about what he represents. And personally I like him because I like the character, and I do not really like the way he looked when he first appeared. So stop bashing the character just because lots of fans believe him to be Spider-man's arch enemy. You like Ock better? fine. You like Goblin better? Fine. But stop acting childish.

I like what you said here. It seems to me that some Ock and GG fans are just a little bent out of shape because they think lowly of Venom, yet his character is so successful.

Originally posted by werehawk
Yes, one argument was that the main reason Venom is liked is his looks, but along with that was the argument the Doc Ock and Goblin are NOT liked mainly for their looks (as is your opinion). That's why I posted this poll (although almost no one has voted). I know my opinion and yours and a few others, but I wanted to see what the general trend was.

I don't think you'd need a poll to tell you the answer to that. When people talk about the greatness of those two villains, they usually talk about the dastardly deeds they've done. Not their powers or costumes.

With Venom, it's always stuff about how he can kick Spidey's ass, how he has Spidey's powers, and how he looks badass.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I like what you said here. It seems to me that some Ock and GG fans are just a little bent out of shape because they think lowly of Venom, yet his character is so successful.

But that's just it, there is nothing to be jealous of with Venom. He has a lousy history in the comics, he was terrible in the movies. Where is the success?

If you mean his popularity, what good has that done him?

Originally posted by Keehar
With Venom, it's always stuff about how he can kick Spidey's ass, how he has Spidey's powers, and how he looks badass.

And you have a problem with this?



Originally posted by Keehar
But that's just it, there is nothing to be jealous of with Venom. He has a lousy history in the comics, he was terrible in the movies. Where is the success?

The success is with the fans obviously. Like I have said earlier, and I will say it simpler, different writing attracts different people.

Originally posted by Keehar
If you mean his popularity, what good has that done him?

It has earned him alot of media appearances.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
And you have a problem with this?

Of course not. It just reaffirms my opinion about the character.



That's true. But as others have mentioned, Venom seems to mainly attract the kids.



It has? You mean like in movies and cartoons?

Originally posted by Keehar
I don't think you'd need a poll to tell you the answer to that. When people talk about the greatness of those two villains, they usually talk about the dastardly deeds they've done. Not their powers or costumes.

With Venom, it's always stuff about how he can kick Spidey's ass, how he has Spidey's powers, and how he looks badass.


Yet, most of what you said is opinion (well, your opinions on what other people think). A poll goes right to the source and bypasses the vocal minorities (i.e. the Venom fans and the anti-Venom fans...no pun intended).

Originally posted by Keehar
That's true. But as others have mentioned, Venom seems to mainly attract the kids.

You're going to have to define what you mean by "kids"

Almost everything about Spider-Man, nowadays, will attract kids no matter what it is.



Originally posted by Keehar
It has? You mean like in movies and cartoons?

Movies, tv shows, games, and whatever else qualifies as entertainment.

Originally posted by werehawk
Yet, most of what you said is opinion (well, your opinions on what other people think). A poll goes right to the source and bypasses the vocal minorities (i.e. the Venom fans and the anti-Venom fans...no pun intended).

Just going by experiences of myself, and others, too. As someone else mentioned if you ask the average kid what do they love about Venom, they'll give you the basic shallow answers about his powers, how he's a dark Spider-Man, and he looks cool.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
You're going to have to define what you mean by "kids"

The younger generation of Spidey fans, of course.



Yeah, that goes for most of the Spidey villains.

For some bizarre reason Rhino seems to be a favourite to use in practically every Spidey game. I never understood why. Good fodder for a fight, I suppose.

And Venom appeared in only two out of the five seasons of the 90's animated series. And his movie appearance is a joke.

Originally posted by Keehar
The younger generation of Spidey fans, of course.

Of which I can tell you're a part of.



Originally posted by Keehar
Yeah, that goes for most of the Spidey villains.

For some bizarre reason Rhino seems to be a favourite to use in practically every Spidey game. I never understood why. Good fodder for a fight, I suppose.

And Venom appeared in only two out of the five seasons of the 90's animated series. And his movie appearance is a joke.

And some how, joke or not, Venom still ended up on the big screen with still a movie plan in the works in his own name. This is more than what any other Spidey villain has accomplished other than GG, Ock, and Sandman.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001

And some how, joke or not, Venom still ended up on the big screen with still a movie plan in the works in his own name. This is more than what any other Spidey villain has accomplished other than GG, Ock, and Sandman.

Ah well now come on, mate. They've only made three Spidey movies so far. You can only fit so many villains in.

In fact, one of the reasons Spider-Man 3 was so bad is because they had too many villains.

Originally posted by Wade Wilson
Non of them is an eye candy. You guys honestly believe that Venom is popular because he looks cool?? It is true that many fans like him because he's like a dark side of Spider-man but that doesn't have anything to with the way he looks, its about what he represents. And personally I like him because I like the character, and I do not really like the way he looked when he first appeared. So stop bashing the character just because lots of fans believe him to be Spider-man's arch enemy. You like Ock better? fine. You like Goblin better? Fine. But stop acting childish. exactly mate, well said.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I like what you said here. It seems to me that some Ock and GG fans are just a little bent out of shape because they think lowly of Venom, yet his character is so successful.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
And you have a problem with this?


You just contradicted yourself. You first stated that you agreed with his point about Venom not being eye candy, then you just admitted that he is, and asked what was wrong with that.

not for nothing, but Venom's been a fellow protagonist or antagonist in all the recent Spidey videogames

Spider-man 3
Spider-man: Friend or Foe
Spider-man: Web of Shadows

and older games like:
Ultimate Spider-man
Spider-man: Separation Anxiety
Spider-man: Maximum Carnage

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
You just contradicted yourself. You first stated that you agreed with his point about Venom not being eye candy, then you just admitted that he is, and asked what was wrong with that.

I agreed to no such thing. Obviously Venom is great looking, I have agreed to this much. The statement was made that Venom is liked mostly for his appearance and I merely asked that if that is the case with most fans, what's the problem with it?

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I agreed to no such thing. Obviously Venom is great looking, I have agreed to this much. The statement was made that Venom is liked mostly for his appearance and I merely asked that if that is the case with most fans, what's the problem with it?

Looks aren't everything.

Originally posted by harri
you ock and goblin fans can say all that, but i believe venom is more popular with comic fans on a whole

Nope.

Originally posted by SpyCspider
not for nothing, but Venom's been a fellow protagonist or antagonist in all the recent Spidey videogames

Spider-man 3
Spider-man: Friend or Foe
Spider-man: Web of Shadows

and older games like:
Ultimate Spider-man
Spider-man: Separation Anxiety
Spider-man: Maximum Carnage

Because the creators are Marvel workers, and Marvel has become very biased towards Venom lately.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Because Venom is such an aesthetically pleasing character that he's more popular. If you ask an eight year old who his favorite Spiderman character is he'll probably say Venom or Carnage. If you ask them the difference between the motifs and damages made by the Symbiotes and say, Green Goblin, they won't understand. Venom is the Halo 3 of Spiderman villains. Nice to look at and easy to understand.

Because of that he's popular, and because he's popular he's put into more mdeia, for example, Marvel vs. Capcom (Spidey for the hero, Venom for the villain). Because he's in more media he's more recognizble and the more eight year olds see him and he becomes more popular...

You're right, Venom's probably the most popular of Spidey's villains in comic fan gorups. But if you ask them why, at least 90% will say "Because he's cool". You ask them to extrapolate. they'll say that he's "Like Spiderman but a black guy".

Very few people like Venom because of what he is underneath or represents. Most fans aren't as intelligent as Darkhalen.

Originally posted by Toku King
Nope. ummm yes, venom is alot more popular than green goblin and dock ock. Even the most die hard green goblin fan like yourself must see this, looks, what he's done to spidey, stalking spidey.... whatever, venom is incredibly popular.

Originally posted by Toku King
Because the creators are Marvel workers, and Marvel has become very biased towards Venom lately. if you mean comics??? nope. Have u read dark reign or seen it??? Norman Osborn is virtually in charge of the universe, or at least the world. And Venom or mac gargan is his right hand man, how are marvel being biased???marvel is being biased towards Osborn really.
But i will possibly agree with you on the games front, they are making a lot of games with venom in it, but why??? because venom is very very popular.

Nothing you just posted disproves anything I've said.

Originally posted by werehawk
What is the take-home message here?

That those lists are EXACTLY what Sam Raimi was talking about. Did you read what they said about Venom? Cool powers, cool look, cool fighting skills. All the eye candy qualities that the kids lap up like.......candy lol.

Then you see someone like Green Goblin ranked down below him, and they have him listed as killing Peter's gf, his baby etc. And an even bigger atrocity, one of them has Venom ranked above DR DOOM!!!!! Can anyone explain the logic of that?

Idiotic lists. Further proof of how overrated Venom is.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Nothing you just posted disproves anything I've said.

If anything they cement what you said as true.

Yeah, you guys need to chillax. Did you actually read who made the lists? It's not a collaborative list. Each one is made by an individual person.

Take some chill pills, put a smile on your faces, and have a happy new year

Wow, you're defensive.

I don't understand how you can have such trouble comprehending what I'm saying. How has any character been "hated on"?

Originally posted by Final Blaxican


If you only knew the real darkhalen glare