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LoTF Luke runs the gauntlet, and gets an hour and a half of rest in between every two matches.

Warm Up:

1. AOTC Anakin
2. AOTC Obi-Wan


Regular:

1. TFU Shaak TI
2. ROTS Dracula/Dooku
3. Galen Marek
4. Darth Malak
5. Darth Revan
6. Darth Bane (Orbalisk)
7. Darth Sidious
8. Yoda
9. DE Sidious

Probably falls to Bane. He'd probably win if not for the orbalisks, but with them I don't really see Bane losing to anyone.

*sigh* should've known

I am an idiot.

^^^

Wow. Mature and eloquent.


And, by the way- reported.

How uncharacteristically badass of you.

That would imply that my one liner was not badass. What did I do wrong? Or is it possible that someone that went through multiple accounts and multiple bannings in one night might not be an authority on badassery? Is it possible that you aren't a reliable source?

(Oh no!)

Originally posted by Gaevus Mesias
LoTF Luke runs the gauntlet, and gets an hour and a half of rest in between every two matches.

Regular:

1. TFU Shaak TI
2. ROTS Dracula/Dooku
3. Galen Marek
4. Darth Malak
5. Darth Revan
6. Darth Bane (Orbalisk)
7. Darth Sidious
8. Yoda
9. DE Sidious
1. Mega-stomp
2. Win
3. Win, with anywhere from moderate to great difficulty.
4. Likely super-stomp.
5. Likely stomp.
6. Win, with great difficulty.
7. Win, difficulty depends on incarnation (RotS = great, RotJ = more than great).
8. Win, with extreme difficulty.
9. Depends on number of wounds accumulated; if relatively unharmed, he probably wins with extreme difficulty. If he's heavily wounded, he probably dies in the attempt.

Originally posted by Fayt Leingod
I am an idiot.

There we go.

That's cruel.

But so in its place.

He clears it. Wow, nebaris is hilarious.

Originally posted by Lethal Rogue
He clears it.

I don't think so, the last 4 fighters are at the very the leas the caliber as Darth Caedus who was able to injure Luke. We have to keep in mind that he only gets an hour and a half rest after every two fights so he will get that after 2,4,6, and 8. There definitely is the chance that Bane could injure Luke (Though Luke would clear him) and I don't see those wounds being healed in an hour and half. Plus he could get some type of injury from Galen Marek via the force.) Then he has to face Yoda and (ROTS or OT?)Darth Sidious back to back with no rest between them. Due to exhaustion and the affect of (possible) previous injuries, Yoda stands a chance to kill him or the very least hurt him more then Caedus did. If he clears Yoda then I don't see him being able to take DE Sidious after that.

So I think Luke falls at DE Sidious(might clear it a couple of times but imo, not the majority) with the chance of falling at 8 and possibly 7 depending on previous injuries, though I would lean towards 8 or 9.

EDIT:Where do the fights take place?

I say Luke would defeat easily most of them. Bane, Yoda and Sidious are the key players here. But I'll throw in a wild card and say Galen Marek too - although not a superb lightsaber artist, he was an insane fighter and was strongly versed in the Force (ripping the SD on Raxus Prime). Bane can be defeated by decapitation, Yoda through the Force and Lightsaber. The only way I see Luke beating Sidious is with a Lightsaber. I'm not sure if Sidious was that skilled with a Lightsaber, but he was a beast in the Force. Luke would be exhuasted by calling on the Force all the time. But then again, stranger things have happened.

Oh, if he only gets an hour and a half between every other fight then he loses to DE sidi or clears it still.

i think it depends on what state of mind look is in for example lotf lumiya injured luke but he wasn't trying to kill her, now when he was going after her just to kill her he did with ease and very quickly.

so if luke is going into this gauntlet with the intention of killing everyone he's up agaisnt right away then he clears this with difficulty.

if he isn't going into the gauntlet with that state of mind then he goes down at either the first sidious, yoda, or DE sids

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
i think it depends on what state of mind look is in for example lotf lumiya injured luke but he wasn't trying to kill her,

You do recall that, at the end of the duel, he shot her about six times with a blaster, right?

Luke's a Jedi. Short of Yoda's planned regicide in the Senate rotunda, no Jedi wants to kill their opponent; but they are willing to. Luke is absolutely no different.



This statement is misleading.

It was a brief duel, but it wasn't because Skywalker exhibited a skill with a lightsaber that suddenly went miles above and beyond Lumiya's own. He was pissed and held her responsible for Mara's death; Sacrifice notes that he kept coming "like a battering ram" towards the end of the cliff and, at the very end, they were locked in a stalemate, each putting great effort into disarming the other.

The book makes it clear: the duel was brief because Lumiya lost her footing and fell off the cliff. Skywalker didn't take two swings and disarm her with "ubar abilitiy!!!1!"



Possibly. But I doubt it.



The fact of the matter is that Skywalker, while certainly an upper tier combatant, is not the most powerful Force user we've seen in the mythos. Not conclusively. I said I'd be willing to concede that he is the best all around combatant, but that is simply by hairs, if at all. Lumiya kicked his ass once through clever use of the terrain and manipulation; he dueled her to a standstill in Exile; and then he defeated and killed her in Sacrifice. While I am not suggesting that the demented, deranged half-cyborg is Luke's equal, she has displayed ability to keep up and pose a major threat to him even in single combat.

He was also critically injured and threatened by Jacen in combat, despite the fact that he had the element of surprise, the benefit of aggressive, murderous feelings, and that his son interfered on his behalf.

How will he fare against someone like Yoda or Sidious who are both incredibly fast and aggressive fighters? Yoda's small size and agility would make for a considerable challenge; Sidious is even worse: not only is he a more seasoned and experienced Force user than Skywalker (and in terms of destructive capability, his offensive Force powers are well above Skywalker's own), he's also an obscenely intelligent and manipulative person. Remember: the tactics waged by Lumiya and Mara, as Emperor's Hands, came from Sidious himself. The difference is that he has more power than either of them to execute said tactics.

Originally posted by Gideon
The fact of the matter is that Skywalker, while certainly an upper tier combatant, is not the most powerful Force user we've seen in the mythos. Not conclusively.

Urm...what?

Excuse me Gideon. But taking the restrictions necessary for good story-telling and attribute them to Luke in the context of a versus fight is simply stupid. We know, that Luke can willingly melt with the force (or root himself within the force - call it what you want) to an extend that turns him into a force of nature capable of decimating armies on his own (TUF), resisting epic force attacks (DN trilogy) or even create infinite lasting force effects (Black Fleet Trilogy). The amount of force powers Luke wields is unparalled and so are his combat abilities.

BUT

The writers in the SW universe usually don't let him use all of that power. There is a plethora of reasons (ranging from emotional involvement to fear of falling to the Dark Side) that prevent Luke from using "all he could" in his regular confrontations. Yet look at the situations in which he acts free of restrictions. He single-handely wipes out all Yuuzhan Vong forces protecting Shimra while in a state of an unstoppable force and being "not there" individually (neither physical nor psychological).

Caedus being close to him? The same Caedus which Luke did simply put into a force stun to walk away right after that, having decided that Ben would potentially fall to the Dark Side if he had killed his nephew right there?

DE Sidious being close to Luke? The same Sidious that Luke defeated saber-wise and force-wise 30 years in the past, when the only aid he received was Leia "unlocking some unknown resources" in him?

Sorry. We almost never experience Luke using all he can, because that would turn the entire series into a joke. There would be no reason to put any duel into the books when Luke is involved, because there can be only one winner. In fact Luke could just be used as Deus Ex Machina in the TUFesque fashion. To prevent that, he is almost always restricting himself by various means (intentionally, unintentionally) or is confronted with situations where the odds are against him anyways (opponents that prepared battle with him, traps, etc.). Without that, every SW story would end in the same second Luke would decide to solve a problem himself.

Yet if we assume him to be in his "top shape" which would mean "TUF combat feat" + "LotF Force control" I don't see anybody coming even close to stopping him.

That's right, you dirty little ****. I said it.

Have you seen Valkyrie, by the way?

S-L-U-T is censored? Are you kiddin' me?



Not really.

Skywalker's feats at the end of the New Jedi Order were dependent upon a Jedi mind meld that he shared with Jaina and Jacen Solo; the Essential Guide to the Force makes it explicitly clear that Jedi mind melds increase the capability and efficiency of all participants beyond normal. To accredit this to solely Skywalker's ability is a falsehood. Likewise, to his Deus Ex Machina moment in the Dark Nest Trilogy, keep in mind that Jacen Solo was able to enter a state of oneness with the Force that, according to the same Essential Guide to the Force, was "the most powerful" on record (the guide being written during the Legacy of the Force series, circa Mara Jade Skywalker's death). Not to mention that Galen Marek was able to do the same thing at devastating consequence. It's hardly unique and, in Jacen's case, a source indicates that he can root himself in the Force to a degree more powerful than Luke.



As has been pointed out, Skywalker's feats during the assault on Shimrra's citadel were the product of a Jedi mind meld with Jaina and Jacen Solo; Skywalker himself cites it as much in the Essential Guide to the Force.



I didn't say that Caedus was close to him; I said that he managed to hold his own against his vastly more experienced uncle, despite the fact that Skywalker was using aggressive feelings (which we all know adds a tremendous advantage), the element of surprise, and Ben intervening on Skywalker's behalf.

Regarding Skywalker's immobilization of his nephew, to quote the passage: Skywalker may have held him there without visible effort, "but it was also true he took Caedus by surprise." It wasn't as if Caedus had time or inclination to prepare his defenses and Skywalker simply overcame them in raw strength.



I don't like this. You're going to attribute PIS to Skywalker's relative restraint and yet use the defeat of a villain as genuine indication of Skywalker's skill? As you're so fond of saying, Skywalker was overcome by Exar Kun's spirit post-DE and he was also defeated by Desann and Lumiya years after that.

Skywalker did not defeat Sidious in a Force fight. It took the combined power of no less than three Skywalkers to temporarily remove Sidious from his Force Storm. Even then, it wasn't as if they defeated him outright.



You can't pick and choose, Nai. The fact of the matter is that even when he is not restrained (see his duel against Caedus), he does not exhibit powers that suggest he is a god, head and shoulders above his peers.

Originally posted by Gideon
Regarding Skywalker's immobilization of his nephew, to quote the passage: Skywalker may have held him there without visible effort, "but it was also true he took Caedus by surprise."Nope.

While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.

Quote it right, *****.

Originally posted by Faunus
Nope.

While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.

Quote it right, *****.

Same thing, you sample of canine excrement!

Originally posted by Gideon
Same thing, you sample of canine excrement! It's really not. Your misrepresentation of the original passage puts emphasis on the fact that Caedus was surprised; the original passage itself puts emphasis on the fact that Luke had pinned Caedus with no visible effort, and was continuing to hold him there with no apparent exertion.

Originally posted by Faunus
It's really not. Your misrepresentation of the original passage puts emphasis on the fact that Caedus was surprised; the original passage itself puts emphasis on the fact that Luke had pinned Caedus with no visible effort, and was continuing to hold him there with no apparent exertion.

And the extent of Caedus's retaliation is that he tried to spring from his chair. Throughout that whole confrontation, he didn't even attempt to fight back.

Nonetheless, my point still stands and you'll never defeat it. Ever. Ever. So suck it.

Originally posted by Gideon
And the extent of Caedus's retaliation is that he tried to spring from his chair. Throughout that whole confrontation, he didn't even attempt to fight back.Because he couldn't:



As it is, he knew resistance would be stupid:



Quiet.

WTF.

Luke hurled Jacen into the chair without gesturing; what makes you think that because Jacen couldn't move physically that he was unable to use the Force against Skywalker?

I didn't mean to spank you that hard.

Originally posted by Gideon
WTF.

Luke hurled Jacen into the chair without gesturing; what makes you think that because Jacen couldn't move physically that he was unable to use the Force against Skywalker?...

Jacen acknowledges that the only thing standing between him and a quick death was his uncle's much-strained sense of decency. The only thing. Meaning that there was nothing else keeping Luke from butchering him on the spot. Since Jacen's Force-power is not the same thing as Luke's much-strained sense of decency, it would be included the "nothing else" category, meaning that it is one of an infinite number of things that were not standing between Jacen and a quick death. Ergo, Jacen could not have used the Force to stop Luke from killing him.

If your contention was that Jacen might still be able to use the Force to get one off, then so be it. If you are trying to imply that Jacen could have used his power to somehow stop Luke, you are wrong.

I told you it was illegal...

Damn. You've got me. But you still can't defeat my argument. Ever. Ever.

Neener neener!

Originally posted by Gideon
That's right, you dirty little ****. I said it.

Have you seen Valkyrie, by the way?

S-L-U-T is censored? Are you kiddin' me?


Awww...the word with the "s" on the beginning is just censored when you attempt to call me names, you degenerated, sorry and lame excuse for a sentient life-form.



Did I somehow miss them being part of the show, considering the fact that the book descripes them as totally astonished by their uncles actions? Seems a little bit off to assume that they had a key role in what Luke did there.



Erm. Nope.
Luke took a force attack fueled by the force potential of the combined Killik hive (which at that point included more than 300 planets) and he simply shrugged it off. That aside his knowledge (and manipulation) of the "White Current" give him access to virtually limitless reserves of force energy. And even if Jacen rivaled him in one particular field of force use (or even rivaled his uncles potential) - Luke is still far more experienced in both force user and lightsaber combat.



Same as Mace Windu calls himself a lesser lightsaber combatant in comparison to Depa Billaba and even Obi-Wan Kenobi? The last one to thrust about certain actions is the one acting. Jacen and Jaina both watch their uncles actions quite unable to belief their own eyes and the omniscient narrator dictates that Luke is "singlehandly" slaughtering the Vong. Hence any role that Jacen and Jaina may have played doesn't seem to be too great.




That is the scenery which we see on first sight. Really Gideon. Luke was fighting one of his own students, on top of that his own nephew. If there was a "conflict" going on in the cold-hearted Darth Vader who had been a Sith Lord for 20 years, fighting his own son that he just "rediscovered" six months prior to that (ROTJ). What do you think how "determined" Luke himself was, fighting his own relative? Using agressive feelings doesn't mean that Luke was really determined to kill and / or defeat his opponent with every fabric of his being.

And when mentioning "aggressive feelings" you should probably keep in mind that Luke was fighting against a Sith Lord here.



I think Faunus has already dealt with that quite nicely.



Yay. And actually everybody can see the different aspects of the situations.

- in the situation with Kun, Luke had to confront one of his own students. Same happening with Desann. Same happening with Gantoris (who almost killed Luke during their lightsaber fight). Luke has never been seen going "all out" against his former students.

- Lumiya? Again: In their final confrontation, Luke couldn't simply go all out against her while holding her responsible for the death of Mara. Too much emotion involved there to allow Luke to accurately judge and act in this situation with all his might. Same with Caedus / Jacen.

What did stop Luke from going all out against the Vong or Sidious. See. Sidious was probably the only being in the saga that Luke did recognize as "not redeemable". In fact the Emperor is one of the only Dark Siders that Luke doesn't even attempt to "turn back to the light". And the Vong were just a collective of warriors that would all "fight to death". No negotiations. No other way to defeat them. No emotions involved.



Oh not this story again. Fact: We have an untrained Leia, an unborn Anakin and Luke. As you probably know, an unborn childs brain is just developed to 25 % at max. How much power could the baby offer there, eh? And Leia? Untrained. And once again: What is said in the comic is that Leia "unlocks" unknown reserves in Luke. Neither is Anakin Solo mentioned, nor is any power from Leia herself mentioned. It's Luke potential unlocked that does the job.

And it doesn't change the fact, that Luke had just disarmed the youngest and most powerful version of Sidious in the saga minutes before that force confrontation happens.



The "not restrained" is your interpretation of the scenario, Gideon. And I'm not going to take that as "fact". Luke simply can't fight his relative and former student without any emotion involved that might prevent him from "going all out". It's simply not possible by Luke's character. Even if he held Caedus responsible for a nice amount of bad-ass actions (including the death of Mara) and even if thinking that going all out would be the right thing to do, Luke won't combat Caedus without any feelings for his relative and student that won't stop him from jumping at Caedus and slaughter him with all might possible (even if that "restraint" might only be there on a subconscious level - see Vader's "There is no conflict.". Which is also implied by Luke force stunning Caedus and being able to kill the Sith without any problem (as Faunus has proven).

You do realize I was joking with the S-L-U-T thing, Nai, right?

Originally posted by Gideon
Damn. You've got me. But you still can't defeat my argument. Ever. Ever.

Neener neener! I actually laughed that throaty, maddening Palpatine laugh when I read this.

I >>> GIDEON!! MWAHAHAHAAH!! YYYESSSS!

The A-Game is back, mother****ers.

EDIT: ****. Shit. Semen.

EDIT2: Huh. Interesting.

Originally posted by Gideon
You do realize I was joking with the S-L-U-T thing, Nai, right?

You do realize, that any sort of name-calling from my side can be considered to be an act of joking, correct? And you also did realize that "Sarcasm" and "Irony" happen to be my middle names, right?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Awww...the word with the "s" on the beginning is just censored when you attempt to call me names, you degenerated, sorry and lame excuse for a sentient life-form.

Not your best.

I was kidding by the way; I don't intend for this to devolve into some insult-hurling match.

Edit: Good. Just didn't want you to think I was trying to personally insult you. The last time I went to banter with someone, he retaliated, and then reported.



That's irrelevant, Nai. Skywalker himself confirms that his actions in the assault on Shimrra's citadel were the product of a powerful mind meld with Jaina and Jacen Solo. That Skywalker was the focal point of this meld and that his niece and nephew were in awe of the power it lent him doesn't mean that the meld was weak; it wasn't.



I'm simply telling you how it is from the Essential Guide to the Force which explicitly states when Jacen Solo rooted himself in the Force during his battle against Onimi, he became the most powerful manifestation of Force power on record, with the guide being written post-DN.



Windu implies that he is "not as great" as Kenobi in the RotS novelization; nowhere does he state it. And you have used the argument that Billaba's sheer swordsmanship eclipses Mace's own, so I don't see what the hell you're talking about.

Nevertheless, the Essential Guide to the Force makes it explicitly clear where Skywalker's strength came from in the assault on Shimrra's citadel. It wasn't the result of his own potency.



That's an incredibly thin argument. Skywalker, to Ben's own astonishment, didn't even give Caedus the chance to surrender. He cloaked himself in the Force and sprang at Caedus without warning, attempting to kill him.

If you have the means to prove Skywalker didn't intend to kill his nephew, provide it.



When Obi-Wan Kenobi faced Darth Maul as a padawan, he used aggression to briefly gain the upper hand. Anakin Skywalker would later use this against Count Dooku. Luke Skywalker would later use it against his father. All cases, a Jedi fights a more experienced and skilled enemy and uses rage to either temporarily or permenantly defeat them.

I'm not sure what you mean to insinuate here.



Except the fact remains that Skywalker caught Caedus off guard.



But only mine is right.



Caedus.



Three times during Legacy of the Force he battled Lumiya. And all three times, he didn't demonstrate vastly superior skill or power.



I'm not sure what you mean to suggest here.



Leia herself confirms that Anakin joined with the two of them to defeat Sidious's Force Storm.

Power in the Force cannot be regulated to training. As Mace himself says in Shatterpoint, Anakin and Yoda possess far greater power than himself. Not necessarily skill, but power. And it took three Skywalkers (one of whom has potential equal to Luke's and one of whom turns out to be more powerful in the Force than either Jaina or Jacen) to stop Sidious's Force Storm.



I appreciate the dodge, but that also doesn't change the fact that Sidious disarmed Luke rather handily in their duel prior to that.



Except you haven't proven any of that. I want evidence that concludes that Luke was not out to kill Caedus and I want evidence that concludes that his feats were not the product of the Jedi mind meld with Jaina and Jacen.

Personally, Nai, I find your argument to be thin. I have cited sources confirming my end. Your rebuttal consists of trying to exploit nonexistent loopholes in my points.

Seriously, I'm not going to go another round with you if this is all you have to offer.

Luke had also learn how to sense the Vong on their plain of the Force by that time, rendering their greatest advantage moot.

And defeating an army of close combat melee combatants is more a showing of endurance than anything else. Luke would never have had to face more than a few at any given time, it's not like he had to parry a thousand blows at once.

Originally posted by Gideon
That's irrelevant, Nai. Skywalker himself confirms that his actions in the assault on Shimrra's citadel were the product of a powerful mind meld with Jaina and Jacen Solo. That Skywalker was the focal point of this meld and that his niece and nephew were in awe of the power it lent him doesn't mean that the meld was weak; it wasn't.


No, no and no, Gideon.
As it seems you haven't understood the effect of the "battle-meld" as the Essential Guide to the Force calls it. The minds are linked, being turned into "one mind" which gives the individual Jedi a better overview over a battle. How does that influence Luke actions as they were perceived by Jacen and Jaina? Luke's speed would be unaffected by the force meld, as would his lightsaber skill be.

And in contrary to the Guides description of a Jedi being able to "sense the destinct personalities and feelings of the persons that make up the meld" Jacen and Jaina just perceive their uncle as "maelstorm of force energy" while he himself "isn't there individually". That feelings didn't spawn from the meld, but from Luke's very own connection to the force.



No. The Essential Guide states that according to the knowledge of Tionne this is the "most powerful manifestation of the force on record". How many people were present to witness the fight between Luke and Raynar? And please...the history section of the "Essential Guide" simply ignores the entire Dark Nest Trilogy, in case you didn't notice.



Oh yes. It was. He was as fast and powerful as he appeared because that's simply the way he is. Of course the battle meld would have furthered his abilities, but that is not the reason why Jacen and Jaina perceived him the way they did right through their "joined minds".



Yes, Gideon. And what exactly would hinder Luke to do the same with every other single opponent present in the mythos? Technically he can just mask his presence in the force, turn himself invisible and assault his opponents - or simply force rape them with a powerlevel that even Caedus wasn't capable of defending against.



If you want to ignore pretty much every single source regarding Skywalker's character, that's your choice. I'm not going to assume that he certainly changed his character to an extend that allows him to combat a former student and relative with the intent to kill his opponent.



And in all of that cases, the "enraged Jedi" is possible a greater force user than the respective Sith Lord opposing them. So if you wanted to tell me that Luke is more powerful than Caedus, you did a nice job. Otherwise that examples don't get you anywhere.



And the fact remains that Luke dominated Caedus without effort after doing this to an extend that didn't even allow Caedus to do anything but sit on his ass. Really. Caedus, with all his force knowledge and power, simply didn't have the means to put anything up against Luke's abilities.



So are we supposed to believe that Lumiya is close to what Lucas himself called the "most powerful force user ever"? Really. The only reason for Luke not dominating anybody at any possible time is, that nobody would touch a Star Wars story featuring Luke Skywalker if that would be the case.



Yes? And where exactly? And since when is Leia more knowledgeable than a third-person narrator?



Yeah. More cool stuff, please. Anakin Skywalker as a child not still in the womb of his mother, with an outburst of his skill, isn't able to overpower Hethrir. So P-L-E-A-S-E. There is and was nothing he could have done. And I must have missed the source that states Leia's potential is equal to Luke's. And where exactly is it stated that they both joined Luke with their power. Source please.



When Luke was still over on the Dark Side and tried to destroy the Emperor from that position? After he just slaughtered dozens if not hundrets of the Emperor's Clone Bodies. Yeah...I wonder why he didn't win.



a) Check every damn SW related release dealing with Luke Skywalker.

b) Go and read the "Essential Guide to the force", p. 79 and compare that to what Jacen and Jaina witness in TUF.



You still ignore the entire character development of Luke Skywalker as well as the fact that he totally dominated Caedus in terms of force abilities and the Sith himself admitted his inferiority to Luke in terms of lightsaber ability (which likely means that the difference between them in that department isn't even "close". And what do you want to tell us. That Jaina Solo has skill on Luke's level, going by the fact that she defeated Caedus not only once but twice? That Lumiya is on one level with Luke? Please.



I don't care. I accept opinions that stand beside the right one (which would be mine). Have fun with your view on the things.

Luke is the most powerful character in the Star Wars mythos, and I think most people on this forum would agree with me. No other force-user has as many force abilities as luke and no one is as good of a swordsman. I mean, look at his powers and abilities on Wookiepedia, it's practically endless!

Did Leia's statement contradict the third-person-narrator? Are you implying that Leia was lying about her actions?

Originally posted by Lethal Rogue
Luke is the most powerful character in the Star Wars mythos, and I think most people on this forum would agree with me. No other force-user has as many force abilities as luke and no one is as good of a swordsman. I mean, look at his powers and abilities on Wookiepedia, it's practically endless!

I do agree that Luke is the most powerful force user in history. I wouldn't say he had the most abilities. Wookieepedia goes into great detail with Luke's abilities, while it don't with many other's.

Do not take wookieepedia for granted(though it is pretty accurate with its sources). It is still an unofficial site.

That was one of the worst arguments I have ever been witness too. Ever. Nebaris is much more convincing when he wants to wave his hand and dismiss canon; at least he provides something approaching a reason or excuse. You seem content just to say "No" and then ignore what canon sources say. I'm going to counter your major points and then we're done, Nai. This was the final straw; you've made a career deliberately cherrypicking what canon you like and what canon you don't. It's not terribly surprising. After all, it's what the Antedulivians did best.

Yes, the ignore function seems ideal for you.

The Essential Guide to the Force makes specific reference that Luke Skywalker engaged in a battlemeld with Jaina and Jacen Solo during the final assault on Shimrra's citadel. That he was the focal point of their meld and the beneficiary of most of their strength, which in turn made him harder to sense, doesn't mean that they weren't in the meld. And, keep in mind, that description of him wasn't used throughout the whole battle, rather one specific part. And in addition to it making specific reference to Luke Skywalker using the battlemeld with Jaina and Jacen Solo, here are some pieces from the entry on the battlemeld that you can spend the rest of your time, not arguing with me, familiarizing yourself with:









-- all from the Essential Guide to the Force, page 79. And for the finishing move:



-- the Essential Guide to the Force, page 80.

In regards to Lumiya vs. Luke, Skywalker engaged Lumiya no less than three times during the Legacy of the Force series. The first time, she quite handily dominated him through clever manipulation of the environment. The second time, though she nearly killed him the first time, and he expressed a willingness to see her dead, he did not overpower her. The duel ended in a stalemate. The third time, he fought her and still did not demonstrate vastly superior skill or strength. Though he was extremely angry and vengeful at the time, the only thing that ended the duel was Lumiya losing her footing. He murdered an unarmed opponent in cold blood, a la Dooku. That was the extent of his rage and yet it didn't give him a suitably phenomenal advantage.

In regards to Caedus vs. Luke, Skywalker assaulted Caedus without direct provocation and without warning -- Ben himself was noted to have been astonished -- Luke simply didn't give him a chance to surrender or stop; he simply sprung, lightsaber ignited, and took a swing at his nephew's back. There was no restraint there. Add to the fact that Skywalker was visibly incensed and murderous and that Ben himself interfered on his father's behalf, Skywalker had several key advantages for the little skirmish and yet still was critically injured and was nearly killed at one point. You can't wave your hand and say "LOLZ Luke didn't want to kill Caedus."

Your rationale is that it defies Luke's character history. That's beyond lame and weak. So did becoming Palpatine's apprentice in Dark Empire when he refused him in Return of the Jedi. That doesn't make the events any less valid or legitimate because "it defies his character."

So, concluding, Luke Skywalker hasn't demonstrated any true strength that puts him leagues above anyone truly extraordinary. It is therefore logical that if he doesn't die at the hands of the first Sidious or Yoda, he will likely die at the hands of Palpatine circa Dark Empire. Though I do make room for the fact that it could go either way. As I said, I have no problem conceding the fact that Skywalker may be the most dangerous combatant in the whole of canon, it is by hairs, not yards.

We're done, Nai. For good. And you've lost.

I really really don't know what to say here. Luke is the strongest Force user that is apparent. But there is something known as controlled rage and uncontrolled rage. When he killed Lumiya, he was in a state of controlled rage, but when he saw Ben in the Embrace of Pain, Luke unleashed almost all of his Force powers. Anyone would be that pissed if they saw their child being tortured. Ben and Jacen/Caedus had never seen Luke use the Force like that before. It scared the hell out of Jacen/Caedus and Ben was amazed.

Caedus wasn't looking forward to his next encounter with Luke because he knew Luke would kill him. He even stated something of the sort that "Luke was using a new fighting style that to his knowledge no one had ever survived to talk about it." I don't think any Force user would want to face the Luke of LOTF.

This was after his duel with Jaina, during which he thought he was fighting Luke. The real Luke was casting a Force illusion to help Jaina (by Mind F'ing Caedus.)

I forgot about that exerpt Red. Thanks for adding it.

But that exerpt was demonstrating how strong Luke is. Caedus was terrified that "Luke" had finally come after him. He was clearly on the defensive because he thought he was fighting Luke not Jaina.

I'm not surprised. Caedus wasn't exactly the most stable of the Lords of the Sith. Don't forget: he did the exact same thing to Luke in the Dark Nest trilogy.

Gideon what you're saying is that Luke used Caedus's own trick against him. But also didn't Luke "enhance" Jaina's Force and fighting abilities at the same time?

Originally posted by Gideon
That was one of the worst arguments I have ever been witness too. Ever
Who're you talking to?

Originally posted by Lethal Rogue
Who're you talking to?

Nai.

You really kicked the shit out of his poor argument. Good.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
You really kicked the shit out of his poor argument. Good.

It really was atrocious. Joking aside, Nai is one of the better debaters I've seen, but the ease at which his argument was dismantled was record breaking.

The ease at how you get everyone here to suck your cock is also amazing. They all just fall into line like wooden soldiers.

Originally posted by Autokrat
The ease at how you get everyone here to suck your cock is also amazing. They all just fall into line like wooden soldiers.

You leave my wooden soldier out of this.

Originally posted by Autokrat
The ease at how you get everyone here to suck your cock is also amazing. They all just fall into line like wooden soldiers.

Antedliluvian? It's not the first time it's happened. haermm

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Antedliluvian? It's not the first time it's happened. haermm

Don't compare me to them. There's no "cock sucking"; the Captain knows it won't get him a promotion.

We have a general consensus here because I'm right. They were popular because they flamed the holy **** out of everyone who disagreed with them.

Edit: By the way, you're a ****. And no one likes you.

Your reading comprehension is lacking in this scenario. haermm

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Your reading comprehension is lacking in this scenario. haermm

Nah, I know what you meant. I just want to deny all shadows of ghosts of a suggestion of an implication that they and I are alike.

I'm a lot sexier.

What is that four letter word that's censored?

"Jerk." Coming from Gideon, it's deadly. Apparently.

S-L-U-T.

Who can swear the best on this forum?