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Marv confronts the joker at the Farm he fought kevin at. The Joker has 10 henchmen all with standard equipment. Marv has a hatchet and the element of surprise. Can he do it?

of course he can! when was the last time Joker could fight anyway? the guy had this ONE PIS-RIDDEN incident where he turned around and fought Batman. but aside from that he's always been a wimp.

guns?

Originally posted by Sado22
of course he can! when was the last time Joker could fight anyway? the guy had this ONE PIS-RIDDEN incident where he turned around and fought Batman. but aside from that he's always been a wimp.

... ah, yes, Sado. Didn't we already go through this "Joker is a wimp" notion when we debated Joker vs. Punisher?

Even if we through scenes from the film, he's definitely not. As thus:

1. Displays reflexes, strength, and even potential martial arts skill when he twists a physically imposing thug's arm behind his back and slams his head, directly so his eye sticks into a pencil.

2. With the help of his thugs, manages to hold Batman off for a bit and even injures him, when he stabs him with a knife emerging from his boot.

3. Displays absolute resistance and immunity to pain when Batman beats on him during the interrogation scene. In fact, he laughs and displays a masochistic pleasure at being hit with Batman's full strength, which includes slamming him into a window with enough force to crack it.

4. Beats and takes control of a police officer who was sent to guard him (knowing the Joker's danger level, this would imply that his guard had to be well-trained). Note; taking control of your opponent is more difficult than just beating them into submission.

5. This is a minor one, but when Harvey is in the hospital, Joker releases him from his restraints. Harvey attempts to grab him. Joker, with no apparent effort, restrains him and stops him from moving.

6. Yeah, as you can clearly see from the above mentioned posts, the final fight is not PIS. In fact, there is absolutely nothing to suggest it is PIS. Using trickery and preparation, Joker manages to attack Batman with enough force to stop him from launching a sufficient counterattack. All while not trying to kill him.

Not saying he's the best fighter ever (he's definitely not), but he's smart, resourceful, and at least good enough to not be considered a 'wimp'.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
guns?

Ya, the henchmen have guns

Then Marv is pwned.

i was talking about the movie one actually. isn't this Heath Ledger Joker we're talking about?


do you know how many times Marv was shot in the hardgoodbye? they counted it and there were 60+ shots fired at Marv and lots of them hit him too. the SWAT he took down at the beginning and when Lucile died were armed with MP5's )takes 30 seconds for a clip to be emptied) and he still pwned them......with a Machette.

Marv>>>Joker

~Sado

Is it documented how many times he wss hit, if any, by the machine gun wielding SWAT team?

Originally posted by Sado22
i was talking about the movie one actually. isn't this Heath Ledger Joker we're talking about?

It is, but you used the phrase 'he's always been a wimp'. Always would imply out of the specific movie.

'Sides, Heath's Joker was actually more of a fighter than the typical comic book Joker.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
It is, but you used the phrase 'he's always been a wimp'. Always would imply out of the specific movie.

'Sides, Heath's Joker was actually more of a fighter than the typical comic book Joker.

He wasn't much of a fighter, not at all. He surprised one thug who completely underestimated him, ie a guy in a clown suit. Subdued a fat older cop, somehow. Wildly swung a pipe and kicked at Batman. He does have brains though.

I would have thought the TDK sillyness would have died out by now, then again, the DVD came out recently.

It really depends if Marv falls for the "How about a magic trick" trick.

Originally posted by Placidity
It really depends if Marv falls for the "How about a magic trick" trick.

Joker lacks the physical strength to man-handle Marv; even if he did, a pencil wouldn't take him out.

Originally posted by Robtard
.

I would have thought the TDK sillyness would have died out by now, then again, the DVD came out recently.

What Sillyness are you refering to ?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Is it documented how many times he wss hit, if any, by the machine gun wielding SWAT team?

They opened fire and riddled him with machine-gun fire and they hit him enough to take him down, though not kill. Considering Marv has some degree of super-levels of durability, it had to be more than just a few bullets.

Originally posted by Kazenji
What silliness are you refering to ?

The TDK silliness that was rampant in here right after the film came out. Did you miss it?

Originally posted by Robtard
They opened fire and riddled him with machine-gun fire and they hit him enough to take him down, though not kill. Considering Marv has some degree of super-levels of durability, it had to be more than just a few bullets. I am talking about the fight at the farm, not at the church.

Originally posted by Robtard
He wasn't much of a fighter, not at all. He surprised one thug who completely underestimated him, ie a guy in a clown suit. Subdued a fat older cop, somehow. Wildly swung a pipe and kicked at Batman. He does have brains though.

I would have thought the TDK sillyness would have died out by now, then again, the DVD came out recently.

Not saying he's the best fighter ever (definitely not implying he could take on Marv in a direct fight), but he's a good fighter. At least that.

I was just replying to Sado's claim that Joker is a 'wimp'. Throughout the film, he repeatedly displayed that he has some skill. Besides, being able to attack Batman with enough power (granted; just through aggression and physical strength) to prevent him from launching a counterattack is at least somewhat impressive.

IIRC Bats was busy getting his balls bit by the dogs to really concentrate on Joker.
@Crimson: just cuz he fought bats ONCE in like what 20 years of being a baddie makes it pretty much always in my books. if you run away 99 times out of 100, even if you win that one time it still makes you a wimp.

Decide. Are we debating TDK or comic Joker? I've shown you feats and reasoning proving that both are, at the very least, good fighters.

We're using TDK Joker, since this is the Movie VS.

movie.
Joker in TDK took on distracted bats and only had the element of surprise because of the dogs that were simultaneously attacking Bats.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I am talking about the fight at the farm, not at the church.

Memory cloudy, but he took out several armed cops with a hatchet, taking out Joker and his goons should be no harder.

Originally posted by Robtard
Memory cloudy, but he took out several armed cops with a hatchet, taking out Joker and his goons should be no harder. Marv had incredible luck there. If the last cop's machine pistol hadn't jammed, Marv would have been dead.

Originally posted by Sado22
movie.
Joker in TDK took on distracted bats and only had the element of surprise because of the dogs that were simultaneously attacking Bats.

Even after that (when Bats got up after knocking him on the floor), Joker attacked Batman with enough force to prevent him from launching a counterattack. He also managed to knock him down and pin him to the ground helplessly. In fact, he could have killed him had he wanted to.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Marv had incredible luck there. If the last cop's machine pistol hadn't jammed, Marv would have been dead.

Doubtful, he survived multiple machine gun fire, it stands to reason a pistol round or two wouldn't kill him, unless maybe a head-shot; that's neither here nor there, though.

You do realize that Miller wrote Marv as a nigh-indestructible killing machine on purpose, right?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Even after that (when Bats got up after knocking him on the floor), Joker attacked Batman with enough force to prevent him from launching a counterattack. He also managed to knock him down and pin him to the ground helplessly. In fact, he could have killed him had he wanted to.

Hahahahaahaahahahaaa, good one.

Originally posted by Robtard
Doubtful, he survived multiple machine gun fire, it stands to reason a pistol round or two wouldn't kill him, unless maybe a head-shot; that's neither here nor there, though.

You do realize that Miller wrote Marv as a nigh-indestructible killing machine on purpose, right?

Originally posted by Robtard
Hahahahaahaahahahaaa, good one.

Umm... thanks...?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Even after that (when Bats got up after knocking him on the floor), Joker attacked Batman with enough force to prevent him from launching a counterattack. He also managed to knock him down and pin him to the ground helplessly. In fact, he could have killed him had he wanted to.

Actually the fight went like this

Batman fights off dogs while Joker beats him with a lead pipe. Batman knocks Joker away. Batmans sonar cowl thingy goes on the fritz and while he's distracted, Joker shoves Batman into a net and then gets him into a lock him under a plank of some sort

Originally posted by Prime#
Actually the fight went like this

Batman fights off dogs while Joker beats him with a lead pipe. Batman knocks Joker away. Batmans sonar cowl thingy goes on the fritz and while he's distracted, Joker shoves Batman into a net and then gets him into a lock him under a plank of some sort Joker did what he had to to gain the upper hand. If it hadnt been for the knife thingies in Batmans gauntlet, he would have been killed/defeated/whatever.

... if Joker didn't have two massive dogs at his disposal he would have gotten his ass kicked.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Joker did what he had to to gain the upper hand. If it hadnt been for the knife thingies in Batmans gauntlet, he would have been killed/defeated/whatever.

Just pointing out the lack of any actual combat competance

ditto. he never had anything on Bats. Ever.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
... if Joker didn't have two massive dogs at his disposal he would have gotten his ass kicked. And if Batman didnt have all his gadgets and armor Batman would have been killed. Point?

If the Joker and Batman fought each other and neither had any gadgets or help at all Batman would kill Joker 10/10 times. So what's your point?

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
If the Joker and Batman fought each other and neither had any gadgets or help at all Batman would kill Joker 10/10 times. So what's your point? I'm just saying that all movie characters bring their shit to a fight. Bat brought his armor and gadgets, Joker brought his dogs and a knife. "If this person hadn't had this or that" is bullshit.

I agree. Besides, if Joker was an incompetent sissy, he wouldn't have been able to do anything to Batman. He's most definitely not.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I'm just saying that all movie characters bring their shit to a fight. Bat brought his armor and gadgets, Joker brought his dogs and a knife. "If this person hadn't had this or that" is bullshit.

You're missing the direct issue; is Joker a bad-ass fighter or just a sloppy brawler who knows how to wildly swing a pipe and lift his leg for a kick? From what we see in TDK, he's more the sloppy brawler.

Originally posted by Robtard
You're missing the direct issue; is Joker a bad-ass fighter or just a sloppy brawler who knows how to wildly swing a pipe and lift his leg for a kick? From what we see in TDK, he's more the sloppy brawler. Like John McClaine.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I agree. Besides, if Joker was an incompetent sissy, he wouldn't have been able to do anything to Batman. He's most definitely not.

We're talking about his fighting skills, not his intelligence in planning out crimes and whatnot. His insane-genius is what makes him Batman's arch-nemesis, not his ability to physically kick-ass.

Originally posted by Robtard
We're talking about his fighting skills, not his intelligence in planning out crimes and whatnot. His insane-genius is what makes him Batman's arch-nemesis, not his ability to physically kick-ass. That and his keen sense of fashion.

Originally posted by Robtard
We're talking about his fighting skills, not his intelligence in planning out crimes and whatnot. His insane-genius is what makes him Batman's arch-nemesis, not his ability to physically kick-ass.

I completely agree. But the thing is, he's smart enough to figure out ways to match Batman in combat. Or, if necessary, to avoid it. While it's mostly intelligence, if he was a 'wimp' with a total lack of fighting skills, he wouldn't have been able to accomplish his feats. During the movie, he's did display above-average fighting skills.

The idea of "Joker is a wimp" is just as silly as the idea that he's an ubwr unbeatable martial artist.

Yeah Joker has some fighting knowledge he's by no means great, but he could take down the average fighter. Unfortunately for him Marv is not an average fighter. Marv can take a few with his hatchet before they even notice him steal a gun, take a few shots in the process but in the end gun the rest of them down.

Originally posted by Prime#
Marv confronts the joker at the Farm he fought kevin at. The Joker has 10 henchmen all with standard equipment. Marv has a hatchet and the element of surprise. Can he do it?

Marv murders the Joker and his useless henchmen within minutes. There is just nothing that they could to do Marv, especially as he is blitzing them and dropping fists on their heads.

Why do people keep saying that the Joker has fighting knowledge? What in the Dark Knight suggests that? His display of hand to hand combat in that movie resembled nothing more than average fighting skill. Yeah, he was able to get some hits in on Batman but he always had Trained attack dogs or Henchmen with him.

dude, McClane would pwn Batman. he had glass in his feet. nuff said.

Originally posted by Sado22
dude, McClane would pwn Batman. he had glass in his feet. nuff said.



ass

chair

Marv stomps the Joker (and his shitty henchmen) if he has the surprise... will the TDK fan boys please beating off to the Joker already?

ditto. the man took down heavily armed swat teams and even oneshotted a carnivorous dog with a back hand. the guy would oneshot the dogs and shove the iron rod up joker's ass and then toss him outta the window while smoking a cigarette.