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no healing factors, and both have an equal level of strength

Sabretooth is a mutated human, Michael is a mutated vampire/werewolf. Corvin pwns, faster and stronger.

Corvin rips Creed's head off.

Creed He takes him higher.

But really, we haven't seen much of Creed's feats. This would be a better topic after X-men Origins comes out. Also remove the assumptions that they have equal strength and HF ... :O

Wolverine versus Corvin would be a better thread.

Hmm... Wolverine would eventually win though.

Sure about that? Wolvie can be knocked out, you know.

Hmm... yes, now that I think about it:

- X1 - Tree branch to head.

- X2 - Bullet to head.

But then again, Michael's HF can't help him if Wolverine slices anything off, like his arm, or head.

True.

Couldn't Michael potentially heal from a missing arm? Maybe not during the fight but eventually?

Still, Corvin would pwn Sabertooth badly.

Originally posted by Madness Hero
no healing factors, and both have an equal level of strength Fifty bucks says this dude's a sock.

Actually, the bullet didn't knock him out, he got up, like a couple seconds later. But, Wolverine and Creed have skeletons made out of unbreakable metal, and claws made out of unbreakable metal, so I don't really know. Wolverine and Creed are definitely better trained fighters than Corwin though.

Creed doesn't have the adamantium skeleton or claws.

HF: Corvin>Creed. Only reason for this is because he comes back after dying. In battle, Creed might actually have a superior HF.

Durability: Corvin>Creed

Strength: ?

Speed/Agility: Creed>Corvin

The feats that come to mind...

Corvin:
- Stabs his hands through Lycans with ease
- Rips the first and most powerful Lycan's head off.
- Regenerates after dying.


Creed:
- Being very agile (Origins Trailer)
- Wacks Wolvie some distance with a big ass tree.
- Recovers quickly after being stabbed by 6 blades into the chest/lungs (at which point he yells in pain which he shouldn't be able to )
- Recovers quickly after being struck by lightning.

Actually, the only reason he really won the fight with William so easily is because he had been confined in a tomb for 800 years with no food, blood, or water.

Although it would be a good fight to see regardless.

Originally posted by KingD19
Actually, the only reason he really won the fight with William so easily is because he had been confined in a tomb for 800 years with no food, blood, or water.


Well, that might be the reason. But its still pure speculation. Afterall, he is immortal, he doesn't need food or water. Lycan's also don't need blood, Vampires do.

Also, it wouldn't be so far-fetched to believe Corvin is powerful enough to take William at his peak anyway if we go with your speculation.

One important thing to remember is that Lycans don't grow more powerful over time like Elder Vampires. So William, after the centuries, is still only a Lycan and theres no real reason to think he can take a Hydrid.

Originally posted by Placidity
Hmm... yes, now that I think about it:

- X1 - Tree branch to head.

- X2 - Bullet to head.

But then again, Michael's HF can't help him if Wolverine slices anything off, like his arm, or head.

What about X3? Juggernaught to the head didn't do squat.

Originally posted by Placidity
Well, that might be the reason. But its still pure speculation. Afterall, he is immortal, he doesn't need food or water. Lycan's also don't need blood, Vampires do. But you're assuming that Werewolves wouldn't be equally weakened by being put in confinement as Vampires as well. Given how weak Victor was, and given the fact that William was tombed up even longer than that, if Werewolves need any food for sustenance and strength then it's not unreasonable to assume that William was messed up somethin fierce.
It'd be a bit illogical to think that they were raiding country sides because they're mean. I would assume it was for food.

Originally posted by Placidity
Also, it wouldn't be so far-fetched to believe Corvin is powerful enough to take William at his peak anyway if we go with your speculation. Uh.. Yeah it is, considering the fact that Victor overpowered Micheal and Victor would be nowhere close to Williams strength if vamp/werewolf strength is proportional between pawns and elders....


Originally posted by Placidity
One important thing to remember is that Lycans don't grow more powerful over time like Elder Vampires. What the hell did you base that crazy assumption off of? They even outright state in the first movie that older Lycans are more powerful...

Originally posted by Placidity
So William, after the centuries, is still only a Lycan and theres no real reason to think he can take a Hydrid. "only a lycan"... yeah that several vampyre elders didn't want anything to do with without their army.
And he isn't a lycan... he's a werewolf... Lycans are the halfbreeds spawned from Lucian I thought that's been made fairly clear by now.

Originally posted by Placidity
Creed doesn't have the adamantium skeleton or claws.

HF: Corvin>Creed. Only reason for this is because he comes back after dying. In battle, Creed might actually have a superior HF.

In battle I don't think "might" even covers it. More like definitely.
Creed took 6 adamantium claws to his chest in the area of the heart, lungs, and aorta all in the same fight and wasn't even phased. Corvin took a pole to the chest and was down for the count.

Originally posted by Placidity
Durability: Corvin>Creed Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Creed got blasted through a train station and got up. He was concious after getting blasted by Cyclops too. Corvin got messed up from a couple Victor punches.

Originally posted by Placidity
Speed/Agility: Creed>Corvin Corvin agility. Corvin speed.

Basing this off X1 because I haven't seen origins.

Originally posted by jinzin
But you're assuming that Werewolves wouldn't be equally weakened by being put in confinement as Vampires as well. Given how weak Victor was, and given the fact that William was tombed up even longer than that, if Werewolves need any food for sustenance and strength then it's not unreasonable to assume that William was messed up somethin fierce.
It'd be a bit illogical to think that they were raiding country sides because they're mean. I would assume it was for food.


Wanting food and needing food is completely different. Vampires are weakened after their slumber because they require blood. Lycans don't. If Lycans require food, then William should've turned into a little skinny werewolf after 800 years, that's exactly what happens to Elder Vampires. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in a position to dismiss your theory, but mine makes more sense to me.

Originally posted by jinzin

Uh.. Yeah it is, considering the fact that Victor overpowered Micheal and Victor would be nowhere close to Williams strength if vamp/werewolf strength is proportional between pawns and elders....


Victor has how many years of experience of fighting compared to Michael? Who pretty much got his powers on the same day. He was not only inexperienced, but I would say he put up a good fight but lost. But I don't understand the point you are trying to make... Your example compares Hybrids to Vampires. Where does William/Lycans come in?


Originally posted by jinzin

What the hell did you base that crazy assumption off of? They even outright state in the first movie that older Lycans are more powerful...


Show me ...


Originally posted by jinzin
"only a lycan"... yeah that several vampyre elders didn't want anything to do with without their army.

Which event are you referring to? I'd like to point out Victor has on two occasions killed a Lycan with a single punch and man-handled one with one hand without effort.


Originally posted by jinzin
And he isn't a lycan... he's a werewolf... Lycans are the halfbreeds spawned from Lucian I thought that's been made fairly clear by now.

No... Lycan is the term for werewolves in Underworld. They different kinds are differentiated by 1st and 2nd Generations.


Originally posted by jinzin
In battle I don't think "might" even covers it. More like definitely.
Creed took 6 adamantium claws to his chest in the area of the heart, lungs, and aorta all in the same fight and wasn't even phased. Corvin took a pole to the chest and was down for the count.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Creed got blasted through a train station and got up. He was concious after getting blasted by Cyclops too. Corvin got messed up from a couple Victor punches.




Originally posted by Placidity

Speed/Agility: Creed>Corvin

The feats that come to mind...

Corvin:
- Stabs his hands through Lycans with ease
- Rips the first and most powerful Lycan's head off.
- Regenerates after dying.


Creed:
- Being very agile (Origins Trailer)
- Wacks Wolvie some distance with a big ass tree.
- Recovers quickly after being stabbed by 6 blades into the chest/lungs (at which point he yells in pain which he shouldn't be able to )
- Recovers quickly after being struck by lightning.


Ok, you're using the feats I listed against me like I didn't already know about them...

But anyway, Corvin deals with all the crap despite having a weaker HF, that has to be attributed to his durability. Creed, has a better HF, but I dunno if his durability is equally high, so I guess I'm just speculating. But after thinking about it, I think you've convinced me...

Durability: Creed>Corvin




Originally posted by jinzin

Corvin agility. Corvin speed.

Basing this off X1 because I haven't seen origins.


I don't recall any real speed or agility feats from Michael. But if you watch the Origins trailer, I think you will change your mind.

Micheal moved so fast he was behind Viktor before he realized he had left. Remember their fight?

And to add more to what Placidity said, a lycan, especially a 1st generation, uncontrollable beast lycan craves food more than it needs it, even though it does need it. They're similar to a zombie. William was trapped for 800 years, and while he was severely weakened when he got out of the cage he was in, he was more than likely strong enough to beat anyone other than a hybrid.

Michael wasn't at full power either, and he still won. Keep in mind whenever Michael isn't at full power his face appears more human, whereas it appears more like a werewolf when he is at full power. But I'd like to think the soldiers William was chomping on was enough to get his power up...guess not.

Originally posted by Placidity
Wanting food and needing food is completely different. Vampires are weakened after their slumber because they require blood. Lycans don't. If Lycans require food, then William should've turned into a little skinny werewolf after 800 years, that's exactly what happens to Elder Vampires. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in a position to dismiss your theory, but mine makes more sense to me. Well I DON'T think it makes sense to insinuate that Werewolves don't need food for hundreds of years or that it would not effect performance.



Originally posted by Placidity
Victor has how many years of experience of fighting compared to Michael? Who pretty much got his powers on the same day. but he wasn't winning based on fighting experience. He was just slugging it out with Micheal, he wasn't using loads of skill like when he fought Lucian.
He was overpowering a hybrid, holding him down, or when he was pushed up against a wall and reversed positions on Corvin.
Corvin did not in the least prove he was more physically capible than an elder other than MAYBE explosive speed.

Originally posted by Placidity
He was not only inexperienced, but I would say he put up a good fight but lost. But I don't understand the point you are trying to make... Your example compares Hybrids to Vampires. Where does William/Lycans come in? I'm fairly certain that it was clearly indicated that William was too powerful for any one vampire to engage in combat with regardless of class.

Originally posted by Placidity
Show me ... Why would I need to show you a movie you're already supposed to have watched?


Selene states in the first 5 minutes of the first movie "Older more powerful lycans are able to transform at will"....

Weaker lycans were going down to a few rounds, Lucian took multiple rounds, pushed them out, and chased Selene down in a car... it's not hard to see the difference.


Originally posted by Placidity
Which event are you referring to? I'd like to point out Victor has on two occasions killed a Lycan with a single punch and man-handled one with one hand without effort. I'm reffering to when they went to capture William... No one wanted to engage him one on one,
Victor fighting pawns is pretty irrelivent to William.


Originally posted by Placidity
No... Lycan is the term for werewolves in Underworld. They different kinds are differentiated by 1st and 2nd Generations.
No... You have an interesting interpretation of these films...

Victor outright states Lucian is the first of his kind, the first Lycan...


Originally posted by Placidity
Ok, you're using the feats I listed against me like I didn't already know about them...
You may have known about them, but you sure didn't analyze them very accurately if you came to the conclusion that Corvin's more durable and Sabes only MIGHT have an advantage in fight...

Wouldn't be the first time.

Originally posted by Placidity
I don't recall any real speed or agility feats from Michael. But if you watch the Origins trailer, I think you will change your mind. He was pushed out of an apartment building upside down and landed on his feet, was vanishing from victor and appearing behind him midfight, and is a hybrid of vamp/werewolf. Selene was zipping around a forest like she was in fast forward in II.

Originally posted by KingD19
And to add more to what Placidity said, a lycan, especially a 1st generation, uncontrollable beast lycan craves food more than it needs it, even though it does need it. They're similar to a zombie. William was trapped for 800 years, and while he was severely weakened when he got out of the cage he was in, he was more than likely strong enough to beat anyone other than a hybrid.

He wasn't at full strength. I don't know how anyone can even begin to think this is debateable or think that he was anywhere close. He was also shot to shit by handgun and chaingun rounds before Michael even engaged him.

That's what I said, you didn't read my post? I said William was caged up for 800 yrs, and he was still strong enough to take anyone other than a hybrid. And he took those bullets like they were nothing.

Yeah I read your post, it insinuates that he was still near top strength. He wasn't.

And he took those bullets and stood up to them, doesn't mean he was uneffected by them as well.

Never said he was full strength, but he was the 1st werewolf, which meant that even drastically weakened like he was, he could probably take anyone less than another elder or a hybrid.

lol okay

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm fairly certain that it was clearly indicated that William was too powerful for any one vampire to engage in combat with regardless of class.



Not really, he was captured by a few vampires back 800 years ago when the Vampire race was still quite new and the "Elders" weren't that old at all, and hence much less powerful.


Originally posted by jinzin

Why would I need to show you a movie you're already supposed to have watched?




Because I'm saying it doesn't anywhere in film say what you're saying. I'm fairly certain, but I could be wrong, that's why I'm asking you to proof it.


Originally posted by jinzin

Selene states in the first 5 minutes of the first movie "Older more powerful lycans are able to transform at will"....

Weaker lycans were going down to a few rounds, Lucian took multiple rounds, pushed them out, and chased Selene down in a car... it's not hard to see the difference.



Actually, the first generation of Lycans, like William, couldn't transform at will... They were forever beasts.

Lucian is "special", also, all first generation Lycans also obey him. He has been the only one to have these special abilities and it isn't because of his age.

Originally posted by jinzin



I'm refering to when they went to capture William... No one wanted to engage him one on one,
Victor fighting pawns is pretty irrelivent to William.



Yea, I've explained this above.


Originally posted by jinzin

You may have known about them, but you sure didn't analyze them very accurately if you came to the conclusion that Corvin's more durable and Sabes only MIGHT have an advantage in fight...

Wouldn't be the first time.


And did I not make the point to explain it as I saw it as a difference between HF's and Durability? It seems you're looking for any chance to trivial argument, even when I've agreed with you on that point.

And when would be the first time then exactly? Quite frankly, I'm trying to have a civil debate with you, but your condescending attitude is hard to tolerate.



Originally posted by jinzin

No... You have an interesting interpretation of these films...

Victor outright states Lucian is the first of his kind, the first Lycan...


Again, if you think William wasn't the first Lycan (not to mention the other multiple factual errors you have made), then please stop debating Underworld topics because you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Didn't Markus help calm William when he was captured? I can't remember for sure, but I remember Markus with a crossbow, and him talking to William.

Originally posted by KingD19
Didn't Markus help calm William when he was captured? I can't remember for sure, but I remember Markus with a crossbow, and him talking to William.

Nar, Marcus was against them harming William. He just arrived after they captured him with the cross-bows and he tried to stop them.

There we go, thanks for clearing that up.

Originally posted by Placidity
Not really, he was captured by a few vampires back 800 years ago when the Vampire race was still quite new and the "Elders" weren't that old at all, and hence much less powerful.
A few? There were about 20 of them using massive harpoons...
William wasn't older either so that's irrelivent.




Originally posted by Placidity
Because I'm saying it doesn't anywhere in film say what you're saying. I'm fairly certain, but I could be wrong, that's why I'm asking you to proof it.
Well you ARE wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPH743Zd18Y

1:53 "Older, MORE POWERFUL Lycans"
This isn't even a reference to Lucian as at this point Selene thinks he's dead.

Originally posted by Placidity
Actually, the first generation of Lycans, like William, couldn't transform at will... They were forever beasts. I never said that they could.
I'm saying that Selene makes a statement that cements the fact that older Lycans are more powerful. So your assertion that they aren't is not only completely baseless but rides agaist existing evidence.

Originally posted by Placidity
Lucian is "special", also, all first generation Lycans also obey him. He has been the only one to have these special abilities and it isn't because of his age. The only ability that Lucian showed which could not be attributed to age was his ability to call on Werewolves. The bullet thing. Raze also shruggs off multiple silver wounds like nothing.


How can you continue to argue that older lycans AREN'T more powerful as well?



Originally posted by Placidity
Yea, I've explained this above.
Yup, and your explaination doesn't change the fact that all insinuations given William> any single Vampire in combat.




Originally posted by Placidity
And did I not make the point to explain it as I saw it as a difference between HF's and Durability? It seems you're looking for any chance to trivial argument, even when I've agreed with you on that point.
And when would be the first time then exactly? Quite frankly, I'm trying to have a civil debate with you, but your condescending attitude is hard to tolerate.
Other debates.... Obviously.






Originally posted by Placidity
Again, if you think William wasn't the first Lycan (not to mention the other multiple factual errors you have made), then please stop debating Underworld topics because you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Oh you mean like how Lycans don't get stronger over time? Oh wait that was you.
No, you must mean how I wasn't aware that Micheal ever displayed mass amounts of speed and agil.... NO that was you too.
Oh wait I know! How about how Werewolves don't need food for hundreds of years and it not effecting performance... Oh no,, you again! I guess the lycans were fighting in their cages for food because the sheer taste of gruel is so great right?

Werewolves are not the same as Lycans. According to the third film Lucian is flat out stated to be the first Lycan.
You can see the sheer difference in their appearance as well as states of mind which is referenced constantly. The difference between you and I is that I'm taking what the films state at face value, your reading in between lines that don't exist and somehow coming to the conclusion that your right. It's as bad as the numbskulls who think the whole hybrid plotline had to do with beating Viktor.

Originally posted by jinzin
A few? There were about 20 of them using massive harpoons...
William wasn't older either so that's irrelivent.


William was not harpooned by 20 Vampires. He got shot probably 3-5 times.



Originally posted by jinzin

Well you ARE wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPH743Zd18Y

1:53 "Older, MORE POWERFUL Lycans"
This isn't even a reference to Lucian as at this point Selene thinks he's dead.


Ok, you win here. I've been openly asking you to show me this for awhile now. So after so many replies, you've finally decided to do it, and in a "OWNED" attitude.


Originally posted by jinzin

Other debates.... Obviously.


I'm not going to ask you to point it out cause that would be off-topic. But I'm just wondering, do you really have to be a jerk?


Originally posted by jinzin

Oh you mean like how Lycans don't get stronger over time? Oh wait that was you.
No, you must mean how I wasn't aware that Micheal ever displayed mass amounts of speed and agil.... NO that was you too.
Oh wait I know! How about how Werewolves don't need food for hundreds of years and it not effecting performance... Oh no,, you again! I guess the lycans were fighting in their cages for food because the sheer taste of gruel is so great right?

Werewolves are not the same as Lycans. According to the third film Lucian is flat out stated to be the first Lycan.
You can see the sheer difference in their appearance as well as states of mind which is referenced constantly. The difference between you and I is that I'm taking what the films state at face value, your reading in between lines that don't exist and somehow coming to the conclusion that your right. It's as bad as the numbskulls who think the whole hybrid plotline had to do with beating Viktor.

I've openly said I could've been incorrect about the Lycans being stronger over time theory, and I was.

I never said Michael wasn't fast. I said I couldn't remember.

Whether or not Lycans need food for hundreds of years is debatable, it is not a "fact". Why aren't they skinny like vampires?

However, you got something basic wrong by saying William is a "werewolf" and Lucian being the first Lycan.

http://i43.tinypic.com/20i74ns.jpg





Also, I'm wondering why you have to be so hostile.

Originally posted by Placidity
William was not harpooned by 20 Vampires. He got shot probably 3-5 times.

I didn't say he was. He was harpooned with 20 vamps there to help hold him down.





Originally posted by Placidity
Ok, you win here. I've been openly asking you to show me this for awhile now. So after so many replies, you've finally decided to do it, and in a "OWNED" attitude.


Not really, just a factual one.




Originally posted by Placidity
I'm not going to ask you to point it out cause that would be off-topic. But I'm just wondering, do you really have to be a jerk?

I'm sorry, I just can't stand it when people try to pass of their speculation as facts and tell other people they're wrong for not conceding to the same speculations...




Originally posted by Placidity
I've openly said I could've been incorrect about the Lycans being stronger over time theory, and I was.

I never said Michael wasn't fast. I said I couldn't remember.

Whether or not Lycans need food for hundreds of years is debatable, it is not a "fact". Why aren't they skinny like vampires?

However, you got something basic wrong by saying William is a "werewolf" and Lucian being the first Lycan.

http://i43.tinypic.com/20i74ns.jpg





Also, I'm wondering why you have to be so hostile.

It's a retcon as far as I'm concerned. Vik says flat out that Lucian is the first Lycan in the third film.
The appearance of the werewolves, is also drastically changed from being of similar appearance to the first movie, to looking more identical to William.

Originally posted by jinzin

I'm sorry, I just can't stand it when people try to pass of their speculation as facts and tell other people they're wrong for not conceding to the same speculations...


Actually, regarding theories about Lycans requiring food, and increasing power over time, I've been quite open about them. I've even said I could be wrong. Your level of hostility is unjustified. But hey, welcome to real world eh.


Originally posted by jinzin

It's a retcon as far as I'm concerned. Vik says flat out that Lucian is the first Lycan in the third film.
The appearance of the werewolves, is also drastically changed from being of similar appearance to the first movie, to looking more identical to William.

Do you remember where abouts in the film he says that?

It wouldn't make sense to retcon something in a prequel though.

Anyway, Viktor is fallible whereas the introduction I posted is accurate, unless in the highly unlikely case that it was retconned, which I would say is an unsubstantiated speculation.

Originally posted by Placidity
Actually, regarding theories about Lycans requiring food, and increasing power over time, I've been quite open about them. I've even said I could be wrong. Your level of hostility is unjustified. But hey, welcome to real world eh. I didn't mean to come off so hostile and offesnive. I'm sorry that I did.




Originally posted by Placidity
Do you remember where abouts in the film he says that?

It wouldn't make sense to retcon something in a prequel though.

Anyway, Viktor is fallible whereas the introduction I posted is accurate, unless in the highly unlikely case that it was retconned, which I would say is an unsubstantiated speculation.

In the very beginning.

I agree that a prequel isn't a good place to make retcons but they did that quite a bit.

Raze's entire backstory for instance, got dismantled and retold completely different from how it was originated.

The intro is accurate up to part 2, if part 3 makes retcons.. well...