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1. Tirion Fordring
2. Gul'Dan
3. Malfurion Stormrage
4. Archimonde
5. Medivh
6. Lich King

7. All Above

Originally posted by Lich King
1. Tirion Fordring
2. Gul'Dan
3. Malfurion Stormrage
4. Archimonde
5. Medivh
6. Lich King

7. All Above

1. Tirion Fordring.
Wielding Ashbringer, I assume? As I said in the other thread, he has a very good chance against Kain, since Kain is undead.

2. Gul'Dan.
Gul'Dan was the most powerful mortal warlock to ever have lived. He killed an entire encampment of Arakkoa with a single curse. In fact, not only killed them, but twisted their very souls too. He raised an entire mountain in Shadowmoon Valley and also rose the Tomb of Sargeras from the ocean floor. Even after his death, hit skull remained a very powerful warlock artifact. Just look what it did to Illidan.

Could go both ways, since I'm not certain about Gul'Dan's durability.

3. Malfurion Stormrage.
Oh yes, the Night Elven archdruid. It would depend quite a bit on the battlefield. Say, if the battle took place in a forest, then Stormrage would have a very fair chance at winning, since he could turn nature itself against Kain. Now if the battle took place in a building or something like that, Kain would most likely win.

4. Archimonde.
A horrifically powerful Eredar warlock. He'd just be way too much for Kain. Finger of Death anyone?

(Apparently, Archimonde also has something called Greater Finger of Death. I really don't wanna imagine what this one does.)

5. Medivh.

The last Guardian of Tirisfal. Killed a dragon with a single spell. There is no doubt that he is a very powerful sorcerer. Apparently, however, he seems to have normal human durability. He'd go down if Kain got a strike at him.

This one could go both ways, really.

6. Lich King.
This guy is the focus of everyone's attention these days(both in and out of game) :P.

He's an extremely powerful necromancer, has vast mental powers, wields the legendary blade, Frostmourne, and can apparently make people explode by pointing it at them. Not to mention that he's also very adept at magic. The only weakness he has against Kain is that his body(Arthas) is apparently susceptible to whatever normal humans are susceptible to. On the other hand, the Lich King wears powerful armour and no doubt has very potent enchantments placed around his body/armour for further protection. I mean, he managed to take a hit from Tirion(with Ashbringer). Yes, it wounded him, but any other undead would've surely perished.

I say the Lich King takes it quite handily.

7. All Above.
You mean all of them at the same time? That's just not fair.

Burning Thought wins.

As I see it Kain will most likely begin to have problem already from the first person in the Gauntlet (if we disregard the Time Stop all together), else if it's active then he gets to four and imo gets stomped.

1. Ime not sure, I dont know much actual knowledge on the guy, his sword alone will not help him in this battle, he would need some extremely fast and powerful longer ranged attacks.

Can someone toss a move list at me please, i.e a list of attacks hes been proven to be able to do, AND what they actually do. If you want you could also give reasons why it may be useful or not against Kain

2. I dont think Guldan would be much of a threat since despite his power, I dont think ive heard any durability on him and at the end of the day Kain could teleport/slash pretty damn quickly. If he has a speicifc ability or abilities that you know of ,please mention them if their useful against Kain.

3. Ime not sure I know any major power this guy could wield in quick demand and using nature against Kain I cant imagine to be very useful.

4. imo the hardest one by far in the entire Gauntlet, although I dont think finger of death would win him an immediate victory otherwise he could have used it at other times during his showings if it could indeed rip inside out any and all opponents.

Although like 1. I would like a move list please of the best attacks Archimonde has at his disposal.

5. I would have thought he would be earlier, since I wouldnt put him above Archimonde but "shrug"

A move list for any special abilites please?

6. Powerful but he does indeed have shown he can indeed be harmed, i think he would be massively vulerable to having his soul ripped out

7. Imo easier by far than the single batlte between him and Archimonde but ill probably attempt to debate this one if move lists have been provided for those that I do not know.

Originally posted by Burning thought
4. imo the hardest one by far in the entire Gauntlet, although I dont think finger of death would win him an immediate victory otherwise he could have used it at other times during his showings if it could indeed rip inside out any and all opponents.


I disagree with a few things in your post but since you apparently doesn't believe Kain will get Past Archimonde either no point in pointing them out, so just a piece of information concerning the finger of death, If you have at some point of time made your own maps in Warcraft and customized the spells you will know that the Finger of death (which in warcraft is dealing 500 Damage (bypassing basically everything)) cannot target heroes unless altered, now if we look at it from a RPG point of view Finger of Death when being utilized at someone at Archimondes level is basically equal to instant death, and as Art have already mentioned Archimonde has a even nastier version...

But we need to use canon versions, and not versions using gameplay mechanics, what it actually does in gamepaly is diffrent in a real scenario, when has he used it in canon, i remember him killing a dragon with it but obviously he couldnt just hit any Tom, dick or harry with it to kill any being in warcraft so what can it be gauged by?

I mean gamepalysuch as 500 damage is not gaugable, nor is it viable since its a gameplay mechanic numeric and from the RPG point of view, Kain doesnt have a "level".

Also I think it would be at a disadvantage against Kain who can seeminly on a whim become mist form, and ofc, you cant turn mist "inside out", Kain also has his shield to protect him against physical attacks and reflects magical back onto the caster. And Kain constantly teleporting and misting around Archimonde would make it incredibly difficult to do such a spell which in Warcraft 3, takes the form of red lightning bolt if ime not mistaken.

If I recall correctly Archimonde haven't used finger of death in the Lore, the dragon he killed he used Telekinetic to kill not finger of death.

I just elaborated on what the Finger of death could do.

No but you can spread mist across a very large area using wind. The Finger of Death bypasses that kind of protection at least it did in Warcraft, not sure what it does in WoW. And Archimonde only needs to hit him one time with it, then I don't think Kain will be in a shape that allows him to teleport ore mist.

ah okie, well then I would personally say that its not really a viable spell to use in this debate, its like almost 100% gameplay in base for evidence.

Not sure about that, I dont see why Kain would not be able to transform his body into mist and then to reform with the mist in a more decent matter, but I was meaning that his misting and teleporting would make hitting him with the red bolt massively difficult.

I don't think Archimonde ever used Finger of Death in "canon". It is, however, known that he has this ability and he did use it in WC3 and WoW. I'm sure it's very much canon.

Archimonde has a wide range of abilities besides Finger of Death.

-Powerful telekinesis.
-Ability to turn people to stone.
-Melt skin and flesh off of his target's bones.
-Teleportation. It also incinerates anyone nearby when he teleports.
-Summon Demons.
-Immolate his opponents.
-Expunge fluids from his opponents.
-That spell that he performed on Malorne.

These are ones that I can recall without looking at 'War of the Ancients' or 'Shadows & Light'.

EDIT: Yeah, Finger of Pain is indeed a red bolt, but it happens instantly. I mean, the bolt probably travels at least as fast as lightning.

And I'm sure that majority of things that Kain did, he did in gameplay.

Keep note that Kains body is not his essence however ,blasting him into pieces would be less of a defeat for him than when Raziel rips out Kains heart due to the fact the heart is the main organ for blood (major for vampires) and on a more spiritual note, his soul link. This means that blasting him into bits is not going to likely stop Kain logically or canonically either due to the fact the guy makes himself into a diffrence substance and thousands of tiny diffrence pieces of it when he mists anyway but more importantly his soul (like all vampires) are their essences. Although I think Kain would be considered defeated if forced to become a wraith since Kain I dont think can attack Archimonde in the material world as a spectoral being either.

Now weve also been shown that his soul is untouchable, when Raziel slashes Kain with the reaver Kain does not show any spiritual damage and well, with his heart (his soul as well) being ripped out of him, for some reason against the typical lOK rules and law about vampires raised the way Kain was, he didnt just drop as a corpse like Yanos Audren did, so its likley Kains soul is simply not harmable or removable, not even if its only link to excistence is removed. Also it is shown that a vampires soul is incredibly durable to being ripped out or devoured/mainpulated as the Elder God, a being who since LOK history began has eaten souls, he still cannot take a Nosgoth vampires.

Also note Magic users will be near to useless against Kain, despite having a magic shield powered by infnite magical energy regulated only by Kain which can reflect magic and make physical damage useless, the same regulation of magic that Kain, like all balance guardians before him have allows him to regulate Archimonde, mediv or otherwise, thus, making their magic useless or perhaps making them incapable of using it all together due to regulation powers.

yes he did, and gameplay is fine to gauge how things work on a basic level, ime not saying Finger of pain is not usuable because its only seen in gameplay, thats fine, ime saying its not usable because we cannot gauge its actual power and effeciveness in a real situation and logic points unquestionably to the fact Archimonde couldnt do it to anyone and everyone he pleases, he couldnt point it at Sargeras or Kiljaeden, his power superiors and turn them inside out for example, I woudlnt be surprised if half of the opponents in the Warcraft universe, highest dragons (aspects) for example being among them would resist or outright be immune to being ripped open with such an attack.

Its also possible that it no longer excists, if its not appeared in canon lore and since there are so many types of fiction after Warcraft 3 in the warcraft universe that it may not have appeared in. It just seems curious to me that he did not use it in all the times he could have it was actually usable on any opponent.

Originally posted by Burning thought
ah okie, well then I would personally say that its not really a viable spell to use in this debate, its like almost 100% gameplay in base for evidence.

Not sure about that, I dont see why Kain would not be able to transform his body into mist and then to reform with the mist in a more decent matter, but I was meaning that his misting and teleporting would make hitting him with the red bolt massively difficult.

If that was the way we were meant to look at things in the GAMES versus forum then we would basically have no characters to discuss and kain for instance would have basically nothing to bring to the debate except what he has used in ingame cutscenes, Archimonde would still have the feats attribuated to him from outside the games.

I haven't in the game seen Kain use mist for longer time then transfering himself through bars and even then it requires that his mist keeps fairly close together if a Hurrican for instance where to strick Kain while in the midst of his mist form I see nothing that stats that Kain couldn't be litterally shattered for the winds. Yes Teleporting could make it difficult the Mist however could also function like some sort of a spirit and the Finger of Death has ingame been shown to affect spirits.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Keep note that Kains body is not his essence however ,blasting him into pieces would be less of a defeat for him than when Raziel rips out Kains heart due to the fact the heart is the main organ for blood (major for vampires) and on a more spiritual note, his soul link. This means that blasting him into bits is not going to likely stop Kain logically or canonically either due to the fact the guy makes himself into a diffrence substance and thousands of tiny diffrence pieces of it when he mists anyway but more importantly his soul (like all vampires) are their essences. Although I think Kain would be considered defeated if forced to become a wraith since Kain I dont think can attack Archimonde in the material world as a spectoral being either.

Now weve also been shown that his soul is untouchable, when Raziel slashes Kain with the reaver Kain does not show any spiritual damage and well, with his heart (his soul as well) being ripped out of him, for some reason against the typical lOK rules and law about vampires raised the way Kain was, he didnt just drop as a corpse like Yanos Audren did, so its likley Kains soul is simply not harmable or removable, not even if its only link to excistence is removed. Also it is shown that a vampires soul is incredibly durable to being ripped out or devoured/mainpulated as the Elder God, a being who since LOK history began has eaten souls, he still cannot take a Nosgoth vampires.

Also note Magic users will be near to useless against Kain, despite having a magic shield powered by infnite magical energy regulated only by Kain which can reflect magic and make physical damage useless, the same regulation of magic that Kain, like all balance guardians before him have allows him to regulate Archimonde, mediv or otherwise, thus, making their magic useless or perhaps making them incapable of using it all together due to regulation powers.

yes he did, and gameplay is fine to gauge how things work on a basic level, ime not saying Finger of pain is not usuable because its only seen in gameplay, thats fine, ime saying its not usable because we cannot gauge its actual power and effeciveness in a real situation and logic points unquestionably to the fact Archimonde couldnt do it to anyone and everyone he pleases, he couldnt point it at Sargeras or Kiljaeden, his power superiors and turn them inside out for example, I woudlnt be surprised if half of the opponents in the Warcraft universe, highest dragons (aspects) for example being among them would resist or outright be immune to being ripped open with such an attack.

Its also possible that it no longer excists, if its not appeared in canon lore and since there are so many types of fiction after Warcraft 3 in the warcraft universe that it may not have appeared in. It just seems curious to me that he did not use it in all the times he could have it was actually usable on any opponent.

How is getting blown to pieces a lesser defeat than getting your heart ripped out? I mean, Finger of Pain would blow his heart to bits too.

Whao, are you saying that Kain can regulate/control or deflect infinite amounts of magic? Why didn't you say so earlier? In this case, he could handily defeat anyone on this list, including Archimonde. He's all about magic, he's nobody without magic... well maybe he would still have Telekinesis, but still.

Now, I am sure that Archi couldn't kill Kil'Jaeden, Sargeras or an Aspect, or anybody as powerful as him with Finger of Death... at least not instantly. It would still inflict heavy damage, I'm sure.

Of course it's curious how he didn't use it on everyone he encountered. It's also quite curious why he fled from Malfurion; he had the power to kill Malorne, but not Malfurion? It's curious why didn't he teleport the hell away from the World Tree when he noticed the wisps. It's also very curious how he didn't spot Tyrande when she shadowmelded that time, but was able to see shadowmelded/invisible targets in other missions. It's also quite curious why Dr. Long-Hair didn't stab Cloud through the heart that time. Curiosities abound!

Originally posted by Utrigita
If that was the way we were meant to look at things in the GAMES versus forum then we would basically have no characters to discuss and kain for instance would have basically nothing to bring to the debate except what he has used in ingame cutscenes, Archimonde would still have the feats attribuated to him from outside the games.

I haven't in the game seen Kain use mist for longer time then transfering himself through bars and even then it requires that his mist keeps fairly close together if a Hurrican for instance where to strick Kain while in the midst of his mist form I see nothing that stats that Kain couldn't be litterally shattered for the winds. Yes Teleporting could make it difficult the Mist however could also function like some sort of a spirit and the Finger of Death has ingame been shown to affect spirits.

But its impossible AND illogical to use mechanics put in place for players and balance to use in a real situation where such would not be present, but as i said to Artificial, ime not against him using it, ime simply saying its impossible to gauge its real power from "it does 500 damage" to Kain.

its obvious all the time that Kains mist form has some great power over his control otherwise while exploring all these cold windy landscapes he has done in the LOk games and used mist, or otherwise obviously windy battlements like he does at the beginning of Defiance, he would have been blown over the castle walls and lost to the winds many a time, but this does not happen, this also shows Kains mist form in Blood omen 2:

8FUfRsQi2WE

he can stay this form indefinatley and furthermore the mist form he takes is not blown away either or deformed, its obvious he has control over the form without a doubt. But ime sure a Hurricane would throw around many a solid object as well so mist form has nothing to with a hurricane.

hm ime not sure about that, since its like weather, you wouldnt say Finger of death if fired in a thunder storm would strike a rain drop and turn the rain drop inside out would you?

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
How is getting blown to pieces a lesser defeat than getting your heart ripped out? I mean, Finger of Pain would blow his heart to bits too.

Whao, are you saying that Kain can regulate/control or deflect infinite amounts of magic? Why didn't you say so earlier? In this case, he could handily defeat anyone on this list, including Archimonde. He's all about magic, he's nobody without magic... well maybe he would still have Telekinesis, but still.

Now, I am sure that Archi couldn't kill Kil'Jaeden, Sargeras or an Aspect, or anybody as powerful as him with Finger of Death... at least not instantly. It would still inflict heavy damage, I'm sure.

Of course it's curious how he didn't use it on everyone he encountered. It's also quite curious why he fled from Malfurion; he had the power to kill Malorne, but not Malfurion? It's curious why didn't he teleport the hell away from the World Tree when he noticed the wisps. It's also very curious how he didn't spot Tyrande when she shadowmelded that time, but was able to see shadowmelded/invisible targets in other missions. It's also quite curious why Dr. Long-Hair didn't stab Cloud through the heart that time. Curiosities abound!


Kain has already had his heart torn out, which is what I was saying that his physical form is not so important, blood which is important to a vampire doesnt bother Kain that his heart, the pumper of blood is ripped out and further more, his soul should be lost as well to the underworld since the Heart of Darkness (kains heart) is his link to his vampirism, without it, he should in theory drop dead and his body become just another lifeless corpse, but it didnt, its obvious his soul and his physical form have some sort of innate protection.

indeed, see this as evidence:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/lok/guardians.php



He is a regulator of magic, making most on the list at a disadvantage, however...

but that still doesnt negative Archimonds obvious massive physical abilities over kain, his TK etc etc, not that I would say that alone would give him a win over Kain ofcourse but I would wait for Utriga or others to debate that before I decide myself.

indeed ime sure too

yes, I know, there are a lot of curious events in fictional series which makes debates in VS forums possibly difficult when abilities are left so wide open so that its hard to gauge a real power level or how effective it may be.

also as a side note, the reason why I said Kain fighting all at once would be easier than some of them (like Arhcimonde) one at a time is the fact he has both inspire hate as an actual spell AND an area of effect version from his sword, both make all enemies in the viciinity rather kill eachother than Kain, Kain does get aggro if he goes too close however.

As I said, without his magic he wouldn't have any obvious physical abilities over Kain, I doubt he would have telekinesis either.

hmm I see surely he (as the largest Archimonde) would have strength, since he was enormous.

About the order of the encountered, Burning Thought, I placed Medivh after Archimonde because from my perspective, Medivh would most likely defeat Archimonde. Not for that reason alone, but Medivh is a better foe against Kain than Archimonde for all reasons out there except endurance. Medivh manipulates mist, he sense people where they are and where they move before they even do so. He does not even have to be turned towards Kain to know what he's doing, how he's moving or what spell he will be casting.

Let us not forget that Medivh was able to reflect Khadgar's instant blast while fighting Garona without even looking at Khadgar. Not Archimonde nor even Lich King has shown this level of perception.

In fact, the only reason I have Medivh before Lich King in this fight is because I think Kain Vs. Lich King would be the most epic encounter of these. He will probably have more trouble with Archimonde or Medivh than Lich King, but the LK Vs. Kain encounter would be one to go into history.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Whao, are you saying that Kain can regulate/control or deflect infinite amounts of magic? Why didn't you say so earlier? In this case, he could handily defeat anyone on this list, including Archimonde. He's all about magic, he's nobody without magic... well maybe he would still have Telekinesis, but still.

Don't jump the gun so quickly. Medivh can regulate and control magic as well.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
As I said, without his magic he wouldn't have any obvious physical abilities over Kain, I doubt he would have telekinesis either.

Archimonde's endurance and strength has nothing to do with his magic. Even without magic, Archimonde would be the toughest opponent for Kain to defeat, if at all. Archimonde favor his gigantic size, and if he would be removed of his magic (Which I have my doubts would be doable), he would remain the size he was, which is gigantic. The guy climbed the World Tree like it was one of them babytrees I climbed when I was young.

Originally posted by Burning thought
hmm I see surely he (as the largest Archimonde) would have strength, since he was enormous.

Hehe, do you think he got so enormous by lifting weights? :P

LK, I thought he said regulate infinite amounts of magic? Or is it a hyperbole?

Anyway, I still think Archimonde is the most powerful entity on this list.

EDIT: That video of Kain snapping necks made me lol.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Hehe, do you think he got so enormous by lifting weights? :P

LK, I thought he said regulate infinite amounts of magic? Or is it a hyperbole?

Anyway, I still think Archimonde is the most powerful entity on this list.

EDIT: That video of Kain snapping necks made me lol.

Most powerful is a matter of relativity.

Now, what magic is not "infinite"? In Warcraft, all magic wielders carry infinite magic and Medivh regulates, manipulates and controls magic without breaking the slightest amount of sweat. I would not know if the infinite amount of magic part is hyperbole or not, but it will make no difference in his fight against Medivh. Medivh is the better spellcaster of the two, and on contruare to Kain can tell every move his foe makes before he does it.

Originally posted by Lich King
About the order of the encountered, Burning Thought, I placed Medivh after Archimonde because from my perspective, Medivh would most likely defeat Archimonde. Not for that reason alone, but Medivh is a better foe against Kain than Archimonde for all reasons out there except endurance. Medivh manipulates mist, he sense people where they are and where they move before they even do so. He does not even have to be turned towards Kain to know what he's doing, how he's moving or what spell he will be casting.

Let us not forget that Medivh was able to reflect Khadgar's instant blast while fighting Garona without even looking at Khadgar. Not Archimonde nor even Lich King has shown this level of perception.

In fact, the only reason I have Medivh before Lich King in this fight is because I think Kain Vs. Lich King would be the most epic encounter of these. He will probably have more trouble with Archimonde or Medivh than Lich King, but the LK Vs. Kain encounter would be one to go into history.



Don't jump the gun so quickly. Medivh can regulate and control magic as well.

I dont think hes as hard a foe as Archimonde ot be beaten by Kain, I mean Kain could likely physically defeat Medivh and is very quick when using teleportation, Mediv will see nothing but his own death if he can see attacks before they happen because as far as ime aware, the dude couldnt really do much if Kain appeared and slashed him within less than seconds.


Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Hehe, do you think he got so enormous by lifting weights? :P

LK, I thought he said regulate infinite amounts of magic? Or is it a hyperbole?

Anyway, I still think Archimonde is the most powerful entity on this list.

EDIT: That video of Kain snapping necks made me lol.

No i meant Kain could infnitly increase his own magic because he is the regulator, he could make his magic level whicever he wants because he is the regulator and so he is the one rules out whos magic is what level as regulation means.

Its similiar to regulation against other beings, if you regulate someting you govern and control it thus unless the being itself is a regulator who can govern and rule the magic of other beings like perhaps Malygos is (ime only guessing, since although Malygis is the aspect of magic, he is regulated ime sure by Norgannon, the Titan of magic who is above him) wheras Kain IS the prime regulator.

Originally posted by Lich King
Most powerful is a matter of relativity.

Now, what magic is not "infinite"? In Warcraft, all magic wielders carry infinite magic and Medivh regulates, manipulates and controls magic without breaking the slightest amount of sweat. I would not know if the infinite amount of magic part is hyperbole or not, but it will make no difference in his fight against Medivh. Medivh is the better spellcaster of the two, and on contruare to Kain can tell every move his foe makes before he does it.

No i mean regulating others, does he regulate how other beings can use magic? can he rule out who he wants to use magic or how another being uses magic across a planetary scale like the balance guardians do in LOK?

I mean all magic users can control and regulate magic itself, but what ime saying is that Kain can regulate others and rule over their powers over magic, so theres nothing really stopping him from making all beings magical in this gauntlet inept at using the magic, or simply making them magically powerless. I mean Kain is literally a governer of magic.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont think hes as hard a foe as Archimonde ot be beaten by Kain, I mean Kain could likely physically defeat Medivh and is very quick when using teleportation, Mediv will see nothing but his own death if he can see attacks before they happen because as far as ime aware, the dude couldnt really do much if Kain appeared and slashed him within less than seconds.

Medivh blocked an instant blast before it happened. He would dodge Kain's teleport attack with the same swiftness he had when he fought Khadgar, Garona and Lothar. He starts moving before Kain even knows he is moving.
Getting up close is as futile by Kain as trying to fight him from a distance. Last person to have come up close to Medivh in hostile manner recieved a simple touch, aged 40 years, was drain of all his bodyfluid, was cut of his magic and came to the brink of death, in torment beyond comprehension.

Only with cunning would Kain be able to defeat Medivh, and even that unlikely. Not melee nor spells will save him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No i mean regulating others, does he regulate how other beings can use magic? can he rule out who he wants to use magic or how another being uses magic across a planetary scale like the balance guardians do in LOK?

I mean all magic users can control and regulate magic itself, but what ime saying is that Kain can regulate others and rule over their powers over magic, so theres nothing really stopping him from making all beings magical in this gauntlet inept at using the magic, or simply making them magically powerless.

Just like Kain, Medivh gets to decide who can and who can not use magic in his presence. He is the supreme force of Azeroth and could singlehandedly with ease have ended War of the Ancients, had he been there, in a very short amount of time. If what you are saying is true, and Kain can regulate magic infinitely, then it would be two unstoppable forces clashing with eachother. For the sake of debate, I would suggest we exclude magic regulation from both sides, or this will get us nowhere.

Originally posted by Lich King
Medivh blocked an instant blast before it happened. He would dodge Kain's teleport attack with the same swiftness he had when he fought Khadgar, Garona and Lothar. He starts moving before Kain even knows he is moving.
Getting up close is as futile by Kain as trying to fight him from a distance. Last person to have come up close to Medivh in hostile manner recieved a simple touch, aged 40 years, was drain of all his bodyfluid, was cut of his magic and came to the brink of death, in torment beyond comprehension.

Only with cunning would Kain be able to defeat Medivh, and even that unlikely. Not melee nor spells will save him.



Just like Kain, Medivh gets to decide who can and who can not use magic in his presence. He is the supreme force of Azeroth and could singlehandedly with ease have ended War of the Ancients, had he been there, in a very short amount of time. If what you are saying is true, and Kain can regulate magic infinitely, then it would be two unstoppable forces clashing with eachother. For the sake of debate, I would suggest we exclude magic regulation from both sides, or this will get us nowhere.

But Kain could simply hold Mediv solid with telekinetic power, and remove him of his staff, is the staff not also a important artifact for a guardian of Trisfal? And I think Kains shield powered by his own infnite magic would save him from Medivs attacks, allowing Kain to attack with impunity.

Can you show me some evidence for this please? I mean as powerful as Mediv is, ive never heard that he can regulate other beings magic just by being in their presence, I mean I cant imagine him simply appearing before Archimonde nad Malygos and suddenly they are powerless. Kain is supreme magic over a planetary area, so technically Kain is more powerful in the regulation department.

Well, I can't really imagine Kain stepping in and shutting down Archimonde's powers either. I can't see Medivh doing that to him either.

Another curious thing I noticed is that Kain doesn't use any of this regulation thing when fighting that guy with immolation. Kain hid behind statues instead.

Kain only gains the power at the end of Defiance when Raziel cures Kains inner corruption and restores Kains soul so he couldnt have, Blood omen 2 kain was also the weakest kind of Kain.

furthermore, I dont think Magnus (the guy doing immolation) was using magic, he was using some sort of mind power.

Originally posted by Burning thought
But Kain could simply hold Mediv solid with telekinetic power, and remove him of his staff, is the staff not also a important artifact for a guardian of Trisfal? And I think Kains shield powered by his own infnite magic would save him from Medivs attacks, allowing Kain to attack with impunity.

Can you show me some evidence for this please? I mean as powerful as Mediv is, ive never heard that he can regulate other beings magic just by being in their presence, I mean I cant imagine him simply appearing before Archimonde nad Malygos and suddenly they are powerless. Kain is supreme magic over a planetary area, so technically Kain is more powerful in the regulation department.

Medivh's staff has no effect on his powers at all. He is as powerful with, as without it. And a telekinetic grab goes both ways, you know. With Medivh being a quicker thinker than Kain, I would dare claim it would rather go the other way and Medivh traps Kain with a telekinetic grab.

How do you determine his spell more powerful? Medivh's spell may not reach planetary level, but that does not mean it is not as strong. Why can you not see Medivh prevent Malygos and Archimonde's magic, while you so strongly believe Kain can? Merely because they are lesser Gods and Medivh is a human with magic? If so, you are forgetting that Malfurion defeated Archimonde and they are in way different leagues. I am not certain how magic works in LoK, but the "One Above All" rule does not apply in Warcraft. Medivh must not be above his target in pure power to cancel him out. It is not how magic in Warcraft works.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain only gains the power at the end of Defiance when Raziel cures Kains inner corruption and restores Kains soul so he couldnt have, Blood omen 2 kain was also the weakest kind of Kain.

furthermore, I dont think Magnus (the guy doing immolation) was using magic, he was using some sort of mind power.

Pyrokinesis?

Originally posted by Lich King
Medivh's staff has no effect on his powers at all. He is as powerful with, as without it. And a telekinetic grab goes both ways, you know. With Medivh being a quicker thinker than Kain, I would dare claim it would rather go the other way and Medivh traps Kain with a telekinetic grab.

How do you determine his spell more powerful? Medivh's spell may not reach planetary level, but that does not mean it is not as strong. Why can you not see Medivh prevent Malygos and Archimonde's magic, while you so strongly believe Kain can? Merely because they are lesser Gods and Medivh is a human with magic? If so, you are forgetting that Malfurion defeated Archimonde and they are in way different leagues. I am not certain how magic works in LoK, but the "One Above All" rule does not apply in Warcraft. Medivh must not be above his target in pure power to cancel him out. It is not how magic in Warcraft works.

being a quicker thinker doesnt mean he can do it quicker, it would still take an action, also funny, ive not seen or heard of Mediv able to do TK as well, although its another thing Kains shield protects against, physical.

But where does it say Mediv cancels all magic out? or that Mediv can manipulate/control other beings magical power? ive never heard it before.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Pyrokinesis?

perhaps yes, a mind attack that explodes people with fire, it was certainly not magic, Magnus is a mentally deranged vampire who has never used magic even when he was sane and has never studied it, I think he says something about his mind during his attacks but yes his mind is the source which interestingly could be a useful ability against Mediv, its not magical in nature so it is not easily removed or stopped and its not a projectile or blast so it cannot be dodjed.

Also ime wondering to myself, LichKing when you say Mediv has precognition of some kind, that doesnt mean Medivh knows and understands what to do in each situation. For example if he precogs Kain raising his hands, Kain could be doing TK or immolate.

Originally posted by Burning thought
being a quicker thinker doesnt mean he can do it quicker, it would still take an action, also funny, ive not seen or heard of Mediv able to do TK as well, although its another thing Kains shield protects against, physical.

But where does it say Mediv cancels all magic out? or that Mediv can manipulate/control other beings magical power? ive never heard it before.



perhaps yes, a mind attack that explodes people with fire, it was certainly not magic, Magnus is a mentally deranged vampire who has never used magic even when he was sane and has never studied it, I think he says something about his mind during his attacks but yes his mind is the source which interestingly could be a useful ability against Mediv, its not magical in nature so it is not easily removed or stopped and its not a projectile or blast so it cannot be dodjed.

Also ime wondering to myself, LichKing when you say Mediv has precognition of some kind, that doesnt mean Medivh knows and understands what to do in each situation. For example if he precogs Kain raising his hands, Kain could be doing TK or immolate.

Medivh is quick as in: While fighting Garona, he not only has the time to while attacking Garona, reacted, turned around and deflect Khadgar's instant blast but also countered Khadgar with his own. Narrator stated that Khadgar knew his only chance was with an instant blast since Medivh was focusing attention on Garona, or it would take too long, and yet Medivh was quick enough to deflect the blast after it was shot. He was basically turning the moment Khadgar blasted and still had time to block the attack. Medivh is quick. Very quick. In fact, he comes out quicker than any move I have ever seen Kain do.

TK is a very basic ability in Warcraft. Medivh has used it at very many occasions. Not that he would have had to, in order for us to know he could do it. Minor mages can use TK in Warcraft. Khadgar at utmost rookie-level could wield the power of TK.


It says in Last Guardian, pretty much in exact words that if Medivh does not want you to be able to use spells, you will not be able to use spells. He put these words to actions occasionally as well, but the one that left greatest impact was probably his use of it on Khadgar during the encounter in the end of the book. He simple removed Khadgar's right to use magic and then went on his merry way and defeated Lothar and Garona.


As for Medivh's ability to forsee an attack, it has never been stated, but all evidence point at that he would know what ability to come next: 1. He can sense the future, 2. He can read minds, 3. He will probably know more about Kain's pattern of fighting than Kain himself does the moment the fight starts.

Originally posted by Burning thought
But its impossible AND illogical to use mechanics put in place for players and balance to use in a real situation where such would not be present, but as i said to Artificial, ime not against him using it, ime simply saying its impossible to gauge its real power from "it does 500 damage" to Kain.

its obvious all the time that Kains mist form has some great power over his control otherwise while exploring all these cold windy landscapes he has done in the LOk games and used mist, or otherwise obviously windy battlements like he does at the beginning of Defiance, he would have been blown over the castle walls and lost to the winds many a time, but this does not happen, this also shows Kains mist form in Blood omen 2:

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he can stay this form indefinatley and furthermore the mist form he takes is not blown away either or deformed, its obvious he has control over the form without a doubt. But ime sure a Hurricane would throw around many a solid object as well so mist form has nothing to with a hurricane.

hm ime not sure about that, since its like weather, you wouldnt say Finger of death if fired in a thunder storm would strike a rain drop and turn the rain drop inside out would you?


You asked about it and I elaborated on it no more and no less, I then added that in a RPG conflict the Finger of Death delivered from Archimonde given his level of power would be near impossible to defend against.

But have a Strong Force of Wind EVER been directed towards Kain? Not to my knowlegde, Kain has never been caught in the middle of a Hurrican while in his mist form has he? No so how you can compare the winds in the mountains to the force of a Hurrican seems strange to me. Also somethings that I remember from BO2 is that Kain needs to be in a mist to attain the form and that if he moves infront of a enemy the mist form will vanish.

I'm fully aware of that I'm just speculating if Kain will be capable of holding his form together caught in a Hurrican a Hurrican that delivers roughly 40 m/s. Just like you from my point of view are Speculating that Kain can shut down Archimondes and Medivh etc's magical energy.

No I wouldn't but if Kain is as good as keeping his form together, as you claim then a Magical Attack focused on it would produce a effect.

Originally posted by Lich King
Medivh is quick as in: While fighting Garona, he not only has the time to while attacking Garona, reacted, turned around and deflect Khadgar's instant blast but also countered Khadgar with his own. Narrator stated that Khadgar knew his only chance was with an instant blast since Medivh was focusing attention on Garona, or it would take too long, and yet Medivh was quick enough to deflect the blast after it was shot. He was basically turning the moment Khadgar blasted and still had time to block the attack. Medivh is quick. Very quick. In fact, he comes out quicker than any move I have ever seen Kain do.

TK is a very basic ability in Warcraft. Medivh has used it at very many occasions. Not that he would have had to, in order for us to know he could do it. Minor mages can use TK in Warcraft. Khadgar at utmost rookie-level could wield the power of TK.


It says in Last Guardian, pretty much in exact words that if Medivh does not want you to be able to use spells, you will not be able to use spells. He put these words to actions occasionally as well, but the one that left greatest impact was probably his use of it on Khadgar during the encounter in the end of the book. He simple removed Khadgar's right to use magic and then went on his merry way and defeated Lothar and Garona.


As for Medivh's ability to forsee an attack, it has never been stated, but all evidence point at that he would know what ability to come next: 1. He can sense the future, 2. He can read minds, 3. He will probably know more about Kain's pattern of fighting than Kain himself does the moment the fight starts.

Do you mind giving me the exact quote and page of where you read this please? perhaps just the paragraph or two that the sentence of Mediv battle is.

Yes but not every form of TK is useful, some TK simply moves small objects like rocks and pebbles, some TK can hold a person but not move their weapons or objects, Kain has shown to be able to remove objects nad hold a person and even chain their armsin the air with TK so casting a spell with any real direction would be near impossilble.

But this could be hyperbole, the sentence you just gave me is certainly hyperbole and if his very presence stops magic, then Khadgor nor any of those spellcasters your saying he battled would be able to use magic would they, so its obviously flawed...

Also Kain has shown resistance to mind powers in his weakest form, including mind control itself....ime not sure current Kain would likely be so easily predicted.

Originally posted by Utrigita
You asked about it and I elaborated on it no more and no less, I then added that in a RPG conflict the Finger of Death delivered from Archimonde given his level of power would be near impossible to defend against.

But have a Strong Force of Wind EVER been directed towards Kain? Not to my knowlegde, Kain has never been caught in the middle of a Hurrican while in his mist form has he? No so how you can compare the winds in the mountains to the force of a Hurrican seems strange to me. Also somethings that I remember from BO2 is that Kain needs to be in a mist to attain the form and that if he moves infront of a enemy the mist form will vanish.

I'm fully aware of that I'm just speculating if Kain will be capable of holding his form together caught in a Hurrican a Hurrican that delivers roughly 40 m/s. Just like you from my point of view are Speculating that Kain can shut down Archimondes and Medivh etc's magical energy.

No I wouldn't but if Kain is as good as keeping his form together, as you claim then a Magical Attack focused on it would produce a effect.

A hurricance would knock Kain off his feet and sweep him up as well as a lot of characters in fiction whether he was in mist form or not so its not really reelvent, and wheres most of these characters going to get a hurricane from anyway...

The mist form vanishes only when the enemy strikes you, but enemies can see the mist and attack kain if he stands in front of them.

Ime not speculating, its a fact he could, theres few resistance in any universe that has enough evidence to suggest you can stop Kain from simply turning off your magic like you would a tap, hes just a governer of magic.

He keeps his form as mist together so its not blown about by a slight breeze fairly solid, that doesnt meant a blast would do anything but disturb the mist, not that this is really a releven enough part of the debate, whether or not Kains mist is going to be blown about by Tornados and hurricanes every time he tries to take the form or directly hit by the red bolt, the fact o the matter is, its an extremely quick move that may be useful in defence but in light of Kains magic nullification Archimonde doing spells will certainly be unlikely.

Originally posted by Burning thought
A hurricance would knock Kain off his feet and sweep him up as well as a lot of characters in fiction whether he was in mist form or not so its not really reelvent, and wheres most of these characters going to get a hurricane from anyway...

The mist form vanishes only when the enemy strikes you, but enemies can see the mist and attack kain if he stands in front of them.

Ime not speculating, its a fact he could, theres few resistance in any universe that has enough evidence to suggest you can stop Kain from simply turning off your magic like you would a tap, hes just a governer of magic.

He keeps his form as mist together so its not blown about by a slight breeze fairly solid, that doesnt meant a blast would do anything but disturb the mist, not that this is really a releven enough part of the debate, whether or not Kains mist is going to be blown about by Tornados and hurricanes every time he tries to take the form or directly hit by the red bolt, the fact o the matter is, its an extremely quick move that may be useful in defence but in light of Kains magic nullification Archimonde doing spells will certainly be unlikely.

Summon them? Cenarius can summon one effortless, so can regular druids in World of Warcraft.

So the mist form that you claims would protect Kain from a magical impact vanishes when it got hit by a sword?

Really? Then you wouldn't mind giving me a example of him cutting of the magical power to a mage in LoK, lets not include the Guardians because we already know that he can control theirs, what I would like is proof that he can take any random sorcerer ore mage and cut off his power, You see I see a entirely different situation between a Guardian and Archimonde, A Guardian draws his power directly from the Balance Guardian and the Balance Guardian draws his powers directly from Nosgoth's pillars, that is the magic that Kain is in control of, Archimonde on the other hand draws his magical energy from the Twisted Nether ore from Himself (not quite sure but I'm sure that he doesn't draw it from Nosgoth) theirfore I cannot see how you can claim that the Kain can Control the magic of Archimonde when it's two entirely different sources and two entirely different manifistation of the magic.

I was more seeing it as quick way to reach a BFR ore a Knockout. The Shield? Ore the thing I have asked you to prove?

Originally posted by Utrigita
Summon them? Cenarius can summon one effortless, so can regular druids in World of Warcraft.

So the mist form that you claims would protect Kain from a magical impact vanishes when it got hit by a sword?

Really? Then you wouldn't mind giving me a example of him cutting of the magical power to a mage in LoK, lets not include the Guardians because we already know that he can control theirs, what I would like is proof that he can take any random sorcerer ore mage and cut off his power.

I was more seeing it as quick way to reach a BFR ore a Knockout. The Shield? Ore the thing I have asked you to prove?

What do you mean? in gameplay the druids can summon a small whirlwind that can lift one unit, when do they do it in canon? in book or cinematic form?

No, Kain in BO 2 simply lost mist form if he was discovered, mist form in Blood omen 2 was simply stealth, obviously this is not the case anymore, since Kains evolution hes gained the ability to become mist not only out of a misty area but also while beings can see/detect him.

The same quote that gives Kain the ability to regulate says its for the whole of Nosgoth, theres no reason why you would doubt it, its just an ability, although hes never done it has he because he only has it at the end of Defiance which happens to be the last game in the series

The shieldi s similiary useful to magic and ive already proven it, go back a few pages.

Originally posted by Burning thought
What do you mean? in gameplay the druids can summon a small whirlwind that can lift one unit, when do they do it in canon? in book or cinematic form?

No, Kain in BO 2 simply lost mist form if he was discovered, mist form in Blood omen 2 was simply stealth, obviously this is not the case anymore, since Kains evolution hes gained the ability to become mist not only out of a misty area but also while beings can see/detect him.

The same quote that gives Kain the ability to regulate says its for the whole of Nosgoth, theres no reason why you would doubt it, its just an ability, although hes never done it has he because he only has it at the end of Defiance which happens to be the last game in the series

The shieldi s similiary useful to magic and ive already proven it, go back a few pages.

Malfurion summons a storm that tears the top of a pillar in the first book in the trilogy war of the Ancient.

A ability he doesn't displayed quite well in Defiance of Kain, the only places that he to my knowlegde could use mist form there was when he had to go through bars, if he could escape and be immune to damage in his mist form, why didn't he use it against Moebius during their first confrontation?

The Whole of Nosgoth wasn't last time I checked the Whole fantasy universe. Then surely you have some other example where another Balance Guardian uses that ability to surpress another mage that isn't connected to the pillars? I'm not sure however the thing that Vorador threw at the first Balance Guardian in BO was that a Magical Ability ore a Item that he used...

And as previously mentioned Finger of death bypasses Spell Immunity and Mana Shields so your point would be?

Has Kain ever faced a sorcerer of Archimonde's power?

To my knowlegde? No.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Malfurion summons a storm that tears the top of a pillar in the first book in the trilogy war of the Ancient.

A ability he doesn't displayed quite well in Defiance of Kain, the only places that he to my knowlegde could use mist form there was when he had to go through bars, if he could escape and be immune to damage in his mist form, why didn't he use it against Moebius during their first confrontation?

The Whole of Nosgoth wasn't last time I checked the Whole fantasy universe. Then surely you have some other example where another Balance Guardian uses that ability to surpress another mage that isn't connected to the pillars?

And as previously mentioned Finger of death bypasses Spell Immunity and Mana Shields so your point would be?

Malfurion is hardly a "common" druid tho is he....

Because the staff of Moebius weakened him, the power of the staff is unkown, we simply know it puts constraint on vampires to the degree that their helpless...and he uses mist form whenever you hold down "Auto lock" and dodge....its the only way to dodge, is to turn into mist instantly and he jolts to the side.

Thats like saying Archimonde could not use any of his powers because hes never done it outside of warcraft if your doing what ithink you are and playing on the fact it simply says nosgoth, its not like its going to say anything else since thats the realm Kain is from....no because I dont need to do I? why would I need to find it when the evidence already states what they can do......there is no feat of it happening from what I remember.

It wont bypass much since the shield reflects magic, so Archimonde will then be under the brunt of its power....although ime not sure why Kain has anything to fear, 500 damage doesnt seem like much of a problem to kain...

Finger of Death

Strikes an enemy with the finger of death, inflicting 20000 shadow damage upon them, their children, and their children's children.

This is the official description of the spell from WoW. No kidding.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Malfurion is hardly a "common" druid tho is he....

Because the staff of Moebius weakened him, the power of the staff is unkown, we simply know it puts constraint on vampires to the degree that their helpless...and he uses mist form whenever you hold down "Auto lock" and dodge....its the only way to dodge, is to turn into mist instantly and he jolts to the side.

Thats like saying Archimonde could not use any of his powers because hes never done it outside of warcraft if your doing what ithink you are and playing on the fact it simply says nosgoth, its not like its going to say anything else since thats the realm Kain is from....no because I dont need to do I? why would I need to find it when the evidence already states what they can do......

It wont bypass much since the shield reflects magic, so Archimonde will then be under the brunt of its power....although ime not sure why Kain has anything to fear, 500 damage doesnt seem like much of a problem to kain...

No he isn't but that wasn't what you where asking, you asked for a lore oriented situation where a Hurrican had been summoned and I presened you with one.

Until the heart was ripped out of him. Then it no longer had any effect. LoL never tried to dogde I just hammered away until all around me was dead.

No their is a great difference in the two situations, First we ofcause must assume that both Characters have equal access to their powers hence we place them in a neutral universe, that means that Archimonde draw his power from the Warcraft universe illustration of Magic while Kain draws his powers from the LoK illustration of Magic, the two types of Magic are in nature as well as the illustration given by the owning companies entirely different, One of the illustration can level a planet the other cannot and so on, now to assume that Kain should, when the Battle begin, immidiately and per reflex gain control over a entirely different form of magic from another Universe just isn't making any sense, just as the idea of Medivh shutting down Kains magic to me makes no sense, that would be like asking Galactus to shut down the Power that the Elders of the Universe wields which is entirely different from the Power that he controls, so I doesn't at all see how you can make the justification that Kain can shut down Archimonde. And it stats NOSGOTH magic, not Warcraft Magic, would you say that the both types of magic are exactly the same?

Sorry what in the Words "Bypass Spell Immunity" slipped? And from all we know Kain could die temporarily by being hit by the Sarafan warriors so yes he has something to fear because a swordsmen in Warcraft only does around 13-17 damage.

Originally posted by Utrigita
No he isn't but that wasn't what you where asking, you asked for a lore oriented situation where a Hurrican had been summoned and I presened you with one.

Until the heart was ripped out of him. Then it no longer had any effect. LoL never tried to dogde I just hammered away until all around me was dead.

No their is a great difference in the two situations, First we ofcause must assume that both Characters have equal access to their powers hence we place them in a neutral universe, that means that Archimonde draw his power from the Warcraft universe illustration of Magic while Kain draws his powers from the LoK illustration of Magic, the two types of Magic are in nature as well as the illustration given by the owning companies entirely different, One of the illustration can level a planet the other cannot and so on, now to assume that Kain should, when the Battle begin, immidiately and per reflex gain control over a entirely different form of magic from another Universe just isn't making any sense, just as the idea of Medivh shutting down Kains magic to me makes no sense, that would be like asking Galactus to shut down the Power that the Elders of the Universe wields which is entirely different from the Power that he controls, so I doesn't at all see how you can make the justification that Kain can shut down Archimonde. And it stats NOSGOTH magic, not Warcraft Magic, would you say that the both types of magic are exactly the same?

Sorry what in the Words "Bypass Spell Immunity" slipped? And from all we know Kain could die temporarily by being hit by the Sarafan warriors so yes he has something to fear because a swordsmen in Warcraft only does around 13-17 damage.

I meant to back up that any druid could do something like a hurricane but thats besides the point, most of these opponetns are not druids anyway

Indeed, lol how can you get through the game without tapping it accidently?

Their just magic, in a neutral universe both magics would be similiar or the same, its just "magic", a force of power, there may be diffrent kinds of magic but its without debate that magic in both worlds is similiar, how it works is irrelvent or how there may be diffrent schools of magic is also, the fact its magic means that by the Nosgoth definition, a Balance guardian can regulate "magic", saying "well its in Nosgoth so it would be diffrent" is obviously a fallacy since any power could be diffrent in any universe which is why both characters fight in a neutral universe have access to their powers as if it was from their universe, the fact Kain can negate magic still comes with him since its an ability that works agaisnt magic in his universe.

spell refelction is diffrent from immunity, the spell is not trying to be absorbed or stopped, simply reflected like a mirror, the immunity happens only if the refelection doesnt work id imagine. lol....a swordsmen..




Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Finger of Death

Strikes an enemy with the finger of death, inflicting 20000 shadow damage upon them, their children, and their children's children.

This is the official description of the spell from WoW. No kidding.

"sigh"

Originally posted by Burning thought
I meant to back up that any druid could do something like a hurricane but thats besides the point, most of these opponetns are not druids anyway

Indeed, lol how can you get through the game without tapping it accidently?

Their just magic, in a neutral universe both magics would be similiar or the same, its just "magic", a force of power, there may be diffrent kinds of magic but its without debate that magic in both worlds is similiar, how it works is irrelvent or how there may be diffrent schools of magic is also, the fact its magic means that by the Nosgoth definition, a Balance guardian can regulate "magic", saying "well its in Nosgoth so it would be diffrent" is obviously a fallacy since any power could be diffrent in any universe which is why both characters fight in a neutral universe have access to their powers as if it was from their universe, the fact Kain can negate magic still comes with him since its an ability that works agaisnt magic in his universe.

spell refelction is diffrent from immunity, the spell is not trying to be absorbed or stopped, simply reflected like a mirror, the immunity happens only if the refelection doesnt work id imagine. lol....a swordsmen..

No but most of the Opponents can summon a storm.

Easily I did, but either way it shows that Kain cannot stay in it forever.

Not true, not the slightest to say that Magic in any givern scenario with two characters will just be magic and then assuming that Kain can manipulate it, is simply wrong. Why? Because both Opponents must have equally access to the magic that they draw, it wouldn't for instance help Kain to draw Magic from the Warcraft Universe like it wouldn't help Archimonde to draw from the Lok, that means that the magic that you are assuming both draw their power from is the same, which it cannot be else we would give one a unfair advantage, Kain would have draw the Magic from the Neutral world like it was magic from his Dimension and Archimonde like it was magic from his. How on earth Kain is supposed to stop Archimonde drawing magic when the type of magic that Archimonde is drawing isn't even within Kain scope of Magical influence is beyond me, for instance had Kain been a Energy Manipulater instead of a Magical Regulator that would have changed the Scenario vastly because all things are in some sharp ore form Energy then you could make the claim, Hell had Kain been from Forgotten Realms I would support you, because the Magic that is shown in Forgotten Realms is imo so alike the one used in Warcraft that they could easily be the same, but you cannot claim that Kain will be capable of manipulating a mystical form of energy in a Neutral universe that have no connection what so ever to Mystical energy that he manipulates. Again Galactus contra the Elders, Power Cosmic vs Power Primordial ergo Galactus holds no power over that type of energy sure they roughly does the same but they have a natural difference that exclude Galactus from stripping the Elders of the power Sure he can absorb it but control the access to it? No way.

But the Shield is trying to change and divert the spell from it's original target thus trying to use it's own magic to influence a spell that couldn't care less about other spells and what influence they are trying to use on it. So yeah he would have something to fear from the Finger of Death.

Originally posted by Utrigita
No but most of the Opponents can summon a storm.

Easily I did, but either way it shows that Kain cannot stay in it forever.

Not true, not the slightest to say that Magic in any givern scenario with two characters will just be magic and then assuming that Kain can manipulate it, is simply wrong. Why? Because both Opponents must have equally access to the magic that they draw, it wouldn't for instance help Kain to draw Magic from the Warcraft Universe like it wouldn't help Archimonde to draw from the Lok, that means that the magic that you are assuming both draw their power from is the same, which it cannot be else we would give one a unfair advantage, Kain would have draw the Magic from the Neutral world like it was magic from his Dimension and Archimonde like it was magic from his. How on earth Kain is supposed to stop Archimonde drawing magic when the type of magic that Archimonde is drawing isn't even within Kain scope of Magical influence is beyond me, for instance had Kain been a Energy Manipulater instead of a Magical Regulator that would have changed the Scenario vastly because all things are in some sharp ore form Energy then you could make the claim, Hell had Kain been from Forgotten Realms I would support you, because the Magic that is shown in Forgotten Realms is imo so alike the one used in Warcraft that they could easily be the same, but you cannot claim that Kain will be capable of manipulating a mystical form of energy in a Neutral universe that have no connection what so ever to Mystical energy that he manipulates. Again Galactus contra the Elders, Power Cosmic vs Power Primordial ergo Galactus holds no power over that type of energy sure they roughly does the same but they have a natural difference that exclude Galactus from stripping the Elders of the power Sure he can absorb it but control the access to it? No way.

But the Shield is trying to change and divert the spell from it's original target thus trying to use it's own magic to influence a spell that couldn't care less about other spells and what influence they are trying to use on it. So yeah he would have something to fear from the Finger of Death.

No it doesnt, it shows Kain chooses not to, and Blood omen 2 shows the weakest Kain can stay in it as long as he wishes, combine the two and you find out Kain can stay in mist form while controlling its form.

ofcourse its just magic, what else is it then? its magic and thats the end of it....what your saying can be used for many things and all of them sound ridiculous, for example I could say that the shield Kain uses is formed of Nosgoth magic and so saying Finger of death can bypass a shield made of Nosgoth magic AKA a magic he is not familiar with nor the warcaft magic is familiar with is foolish. Saying just because the magic comes from nosgoth and the other from warcraft doesnt break the fact its still magic.

What the spell cares about means nothing, its just reflected, so it will indeed hit a target and it will not be hit by any spell immunities, it would just blast Archimonde.

On a second thought, who's to say that Archimonde wouldn't simply overpower Kain's protections or regulations? I mean, is there even a spellcaster on Nosgoth that equals Archimonde? What was that book that said that Sargeras blessed Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden with basically unlimited magic? I mean, even if Kain was to somehow prevent Archimonde from casting spells, he could overpower him with physical strength or tear him to shreds with telekinesis. That is of course if Kain wouldn't be able to shut down Archimonde's magic entirely.

Anyway, maybe we should discuss other combatants in the gauntlet as well?

You cannot overpower an infnite source, kain as the regulator would not have his magic power be smaller than anyones in this gauntlet would he? furthermore Archimonde would have to show a feat that he could overpower a regulator.

perhaps but one at a time is easier, debating all at once may get confusing.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No it doesnt, it shows Kain chooses not to, and Blood omen 2 shows the weakest Kain can stay in it as long as he wishes, combine the two and you find out Kain can stay in mist form while controlling its form.

ofcourse its just magic, what else is it then? its magic and thats the end of it....what your saying can be used for many things and all of them sound ridiculous, for example I could say that the shield Kain uses is formed of Nosgoth magic and so saying Finger of death can bypass a shield made of Nosgoth magic AKA a magic he is not familiar with nor the warcaft magic is familiar with is foolish. Saying just because the magic comes from nosgoth and the other from warcraft doesnt break the fact its still magic.

What the spell cares about means nothing, its just reflected, so it will indeed hit a target and it will not be hit by any spell immunities, it would just blast Archimonde.

If he doesn't get spotted (in BO2) and not for a infinite amount of time in Defiance. And again have he ever controlled his form when begin struck by something resembling the winds of a storm ore Hurrican, he gets to MalFurion before Archimonde Remember.

Of Cause it isn't just magic, Magic is depending on the universe inherently different in nature, I would for starters claim that Malygos would have no way to shut down a Malfurions access to magic simply because Malfurion uses nature magic a energy drawn from the earth and all around him where Malygos has pretty much complete control over the arcane that originates from the Well of Eternity created by the Titans, In the Belgarion Sage Magic is given form as a combination between the Will and the Word not as a source originating from the world ore the universe for instance, in Star Wars I would say that the "Magic" would be the force, In Warhammer the power originates from a World of Chaos, In Witcher the Power Originates through signs, In LOTR it is shown in some scenarios as song, so Magic isn't just magic, let take a quick look at DC, There the Magic that Spectre draws his power from Originates from the Logoz a infinite energy source created by the Presence, another type of magic in DC draws it powers from the Source but the two types of magic is entirely different from each other and cannot the placed as equals to one another, but according to you, the fact alone, that it in some ways is related to as magic, would allow Kain to Regulate the Magic even though the LoK version of Magic has absolutely no crediability against the previous mentioned types of magic. Because Kain in LoK regulates the magic that steams from Nosgoth and the Magic from what I have understood flows through the Balance Guardian, that is what Kain Regulates, last time I checked Archimonde didn't draw his magical power through Kain but rather from the Twisted nether where none regulates anything and in a neutral universe he would gain access to his magic like he always does. You see that is another situation entirely because that is two types of magic being used against each other but instead of just loose speculations we actually have a fairly good idea how both spells work and react to other types of magic because we have situations where such things have happened, not just the thought that because Kain can regulate magic in his world then he can automatically negate every other type of magic in the entire fantasy omniverse.

If a spell tries to use magic on another spell that bypasses immunity what do you think the result would be?

Originally posted by Utrigita
If he doesn't get spotted (in BO2) and not for a infinite amount of time in Defiance. And again have he ever controlled his form when begin struck by something resembling the winds of a storm ore Hurrican, he gets to MalFurion before Archimonde Remember.

Of Cause it isn't just magic, Magic is depending on the universe inherently different in nature, I would for starters claim that Malygos would have no way to shut down a Malfurions access to magic simply because Malfurion uses nature magic a energy drawn from the earth and all around him where Malygos has pretty much complete control over the arcane that originates from the Well of Eternity created by the Titans, In the Belgarion Sage Magic is given form as a combination between the Will and the Word not as a source originating from the world ore the universe for instance, in Star Wars I would say that the "Magic" would be the force, In Warhammer the power originates from a World of Chaos, In Witcher the Power Originates through signs, In LOTR it is shown in some scenarios as song, so Magic isn't just magic, let take a quick look at DC, There the Magic that Spectre draws his power from Originates from the Logoz a infinite energy source created by the Presence, another type of magic in DC draws it powers from the Source but the two types of magic is entirely different from each other and cannot the placed as equals to one another, but according to you, the fact alone, that it in some ways is related to as magic, would allow Kain to Regulate the Magic even though the LoK version of Magic has absolutely no crediability against the previous mentioned types of magic. Because Kain in LoK regulates the magic that steams from Nosgoth and the Magic from what I have understood flows through the Balance Guardian, that is what Kain Regulates, last time I checked Archimonde didn't draw his magical power through Kain but rather from the Twisted nether where none regulates anything and in a neutral universe he would gain access to his magic like he always does. You see that is another situation entirely because that is two types of magic being used against each other but instead of just loose speculations we actually have a fairly good idea how both spells work and react to other types of magic because we have situations where such things have happened, not just the thought that because Kain can regulate magic in his world then he can automatically negate every other type of magic in the entire fantasy omniverse.

If a spell tries to use magic on another spell that bypasses immunity what do you think the result would be?

No, but ime not debating he will keep his form, but I highly doubt Malfurion will be casting hurricanes every 5 minutes either...

Just because they get their magic in diffrent ways doesnt mean its a diffrent magic, magic is magic, just because Norgannon made it or w/e in Warcraft doesnt mean it simply cannot be regulated in a neutral universe. My analogy was exactley the same as yours, your saying Kain cannot regulate Archimodne or Warcraft magic becaue it has a diffrent source (which is irrelvent really since its still magic) well ime saying Archimondes spells will not harm or defeat Kains spells or his shield either because they are also a diffrent source and assuming such from your point of view should be ridiculous and hippocritcle, then again I myself think that in a neutral universe (i.e, default battleground if unstated by thread starter) allows the powers of a being to effect others in the gauntlet/battle exactley the same way beings in his own universe would be effected which is why finger of death will retain its powers against a diffrent source of magic (kains shield) and why its fair Kain also has full power over his regulatory abilities.

Well in this case, refelection, so the spell that can bypass immunities will be reflected. Being able to break through immunities doesnt mean it cannot be effected by any other spells in the process.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You cannot overpower an infnite source

That goes both ways, as all magic wielders in this gauntlet is an infinite source.

Originally posted by Lich King
That goes both ways, as all magic wielders in this gauntlet is an infinite source.

No its not, the magic itself as a form of resource is infnite but the use of it is not infnite otherwise Mediv could use infnite energy with his attacks and wipe out Sargeras and likely most other pantheon memebers by himself, although this is untrue.

What I was saying is that Kain can regulate, Archimonde cannot and would not know what to do if he was regulated. His magic would be like a electric circuit, the electricity would infnitly go round, but then Kains magic breaks teh circuit. Archimonde has not got immunity to regulation from evidence ive seen.

So you are saying Kain can one-shot anyone because he has infinite magic?

no not anyone

Tell me why Kain can overpower Medivh, Archimonde and the others by usage of infinite magic, while they can not do the same to Kain. Reading what you say, it seems to me like it is nothing but hypocritic statements biased to favor one over the other.

Because Kain is a regulator and in a way a governer of magic and neither Mediv or Archimonde are.....its a magical trait, its like me asking "why can Archimonde finger of death kain and Kain cannot finger of death archimonde"

Originally posted by Burning thought
No, but ime not debating he will keep his form, but I highly doubt Malfurion will be casting hurricanes every 5 minutes either...

Just because they get their magic in diffrent ways doesnt mean its a diffrent magic, magic is magic, just because Norgannon made it or w/e in Warcraft doesnt mean it simply cannot be regulated in a neutral universe. My analogy was exactley the same as yours, your saying Kain cannot regulate Archimodne or Warcraft magic becaue it has a diffrent source (which is irrelvent really since its still magic) well ime saying Archimondes spells will not harm or defeat Kains spells or his shield either because they are also a diffrent source and assuming such from your point of view should be ridiculous and hippocritcle, then again I myself think that in a neutral universe (i.e, default battleground if unstated by thread starter) allows the powers of a being to effect others in the gauntlet/battle exactley the same way beings in his own universe would be effected which is why finger of death will retain its powers against a diffrent source of magic (kains shield) and why its fair Kain also has full power over his regulatory abilities.

Well in this case, refelection, so the spell that can bypass immunities will be reflected. Being able to break through immunities doesnt mean it cannot be effected by any other spells in the process.

But you are using it as a way for Kain to gain into close combat which his enermies and to dodge them, Malfurion for instance as a contrary to Archimonde will not be interested in killing Kain but rather incapacitate him, and imo he will use a Hurrican to do that.

And your analogy isn't making any sense, I have just given numerous evidence which directly shows that Magic isn't simply magic there are far more aspects in it which I have just mention the situation here looks alot like a situation Doctor Strange from Marvel was in, Agamotto locked Strange out Strange could no longer use the magic that Agamotto provides Agamotto was the regulator, However Doctor Strange could still fully draw magic from other Entities, and that is what I see here sure Kain Regulates the Magic that originates from Nosgoth and Flows from him too the Guardians, but he has no power over a outside magical force like for instance the Twisted nether like he would have no power over the magic that both in the Realm would draw from because Archimonde doesn't draw the magic too power his spells through Kain. Norgannon didn't make Arcane magic, Arcane magic originates from the Twisted Nether it wasn't created by the Titans, but it was brought to Azeroth by the Titans. Nothing in that post can be viewed as the any kind of hypocritisme I'm putting a very Large Questionmark infront of a ability that have never been seen ore used and I think not even mentioned in the games, where we on the other hand have The Finger of Death that have been in contact with other kinds of Magic that doesn't originate from the same place as it does (Nature Magic for instance), theirfore we have a idea on how it behaves against other types of magic the same goes with the Shield, that if I recalled correctly withstood some blasts ore something from the Hylden Lord ore something and he sure as hell wasn't drawing his power from Nosgoth because he was restricted from getting there. If we go by what you view as a useable scenario then Kain will be blow to dust by a Finger of Death ore ripped apart by Archimondes Telekinese. We know that Archimonde in a Battle against the Dragons used that first before applying any spell, what does kain utilize first? Not the Regulation of magic that he cannot from my perspective use anyhow.

Well I would say that when a Spell bypasses Spell Immunity ore a Mana Shield it have shown that it cannot be deflected *srug*

Originally posted by Utrigita
But you are using it as a way for Kain to gain into close combat which his enermies and to dodge them, Malfurion for instance as a contrary to Archimonde will not be interested in killing Kain but rather incapacitate him, and imo he will use a Hurrican to do that.

And your analogy isn't making any sense, I have just given numerous evidence which directly shows that Magic isn't simply magic there are far more aspects in it which I have just mention the situation here looks alot like a situation Doctor Strange from Marvel was in, Agamotto locked Strange out Strange could no longer use the magic that Agamotto provides Agamotto was the regulator, However Doctor Strange could still fully draw magic from other Entities, and that is what I see here sure Kain Regulates the Magic that originates from Nosgoth and Flows from him too the Guardians, but he has no power over a outside magical force like for instance the Twisted nether like he would have no power over the magic that both in the Realm would draw from because Archimonde doesn't draw the magic too power his spells through Kain. Norgannon didn't make Arcane magic, Arcane magic originates from the Twisted Nether it wasn't created by the Titans, but it was brought to Azeroth by the Titans. Nothing in that post can be viewed as the any kind of hypocritisme I'm putting a very Large Questionmark infront of a ability that have never been seen ore used and I think not even mentioned in the games, where we on the other hand have The Finger of Death that have been in contact with other kinds of Magic that doesn't originate from the same place as it does (Nature Magic for instance), theirfore we have a idea on how it behaves against other types of magic the same goes with the Shield, that if I recalled correctly withstood some blasts ore something from the Hylden Lord ore something and he sure as hell wasn't drawing his power from Nosgoth because he was restricted from getting there. If we go by what you view as a useable scenario then Kain will be blow to dust by a Finger of Death ore ripped apart by Archimondes Telekinese. We know that Archimonde in a Battle against the Dragons used that first before applying any spell, what does kain utilize first? Not the Regulation of magic that he cannot from my perspective use anyhow.

Well I would say that when a Spell bypasses Spell Immunity ore a Mana Shield it have shown that it cannot be deflected *srug*


A hurricane doesnt last forever nor woudl it stop Kain from teleporting and its a physical force, Kains shield protects from physical force.

Thats very diffrent, Agamotto is a magical godlike entity is he not? Strange takes power from him but Agamotto turns it off. Kain on the other hand, turns other peoples off even if their not taking magic from him, the blance guardian is not the source of magic itself for example, its not like everyone is connected to magic through a balance guardian the way strange was connected to Agamotto.

In a battle sequence Kain would shield most likely and depending on the opponent use several diffrent spells but regulation would be his main use in this debate, being able to cut off spells is pretty important against the likes of Archimonde, mediv etc etc

It simply shows it is not affected by those types of shields, it does not mean it simply cannot be reflected or dispelled before it hits a target.

I don't think Finger of Death can get stopped "mid-air" since it happens pretty much instantaneously. It also pierces immunities as well as reflections.

When did it pierce reflection? altho thing is, its gameplay feat, gameplay mechanics are taken into account when in gameplay something is struck. Its like saying Kain cannot get targeted because hed be considered a "hero" character.

It's weird. In WoW he can target anyone, and it pierces reflections/immunities. I believe it was also stated in the books.

The books are the best source of canon knowledge.

Originally posted by Burning thought
A hurricane doesnt last forever nor woudl it stop Kain from teleporting and its a physical force, Kains shield protects from physical force.

Thats very diffrent, Agamotto is a magical godlike entity is he not? Strange takes power from him but Agamotto turns it off. Kain on the other hand, turns other peoples off even if their not taking magic from him, the blance guardian is not the source of magic itself for example, its not like everyone is connected to magic through a balance guardian the way strange was connected to Agamotto.

In a battle sequence Kain would shield most likely and depending on the opponent use several diffrent spells but regulation would be his main use in this debate, being able to cut off spells is pretty important against the likes of Archimonde, mediv etc etc

It simply shows it is not affected by those types of shields, it does not mean it simply cannot be reflected or dispelled before it hits a target.

No but I can easily Imagine that Malfurion could keep it us as long as he pleases, Sure he can teleport back in but that requires that he gains control over his mist form in the middle of a Hurrican. Sure he can use a shield but that wouldn't really stop him from being lifted into the air would it?

Agamotto have his own seperate realm, and roughly they do the same, Agamotto prevents Strange from gaining access to the power that he commands Kain does the same by not allowing people to draw magic from Nosgoth through him, and now you have hit the nail on the head and what is my major concern with this type of power, What can Kain do if he runs into a person that draws Magical energy without there being placed a middle section the Regulator Imo not in any sharp ore form control the access to it.

Yes in a debate but if we go into how Kain would engage in a combat situation we must if we use CIS (Character Induced Stupidity) also take into account how the Combatent thinks and what is the most likely way for him to respond to a attack ore defend himself, I don't even know if it's on in the versus forum is it?

What artificial said above.

Originally posted by Utrigita
No but I can easily Imagine that Malfurion could keep it us as long as he pleases, Sure he can teleport back in but that requires that he gains control over his mist form in the middle of a Hurrican. Sure he can use a shield but that wouldn't really stop him from being lifted into the air would it?

Agamotto have his own seperate realm, and roughly they do the same, Agamotto prevents Strange from gaining access to the power that he commands Kain does the same by not allowing people to draw magic from Nosgoth through him, and now you have hit the nail on the head and what is my major concern with this type of power, What can Kain do if he runs into a person that draws Magical energy without there being placed a middle section the Regulator Imo not in any sharp ore form control the access to it.

Yes in a debate but if we go into how Kain would engage in a combat situation we must if we use CIS (Character Induced Stupidity) also take into account how the Combatent thinks and what is the most likely way for him to respond to a attack ore defend himself, I don't even know if it's on in the versus forum is it?

What artificial said above.

From whats shown Kains mist never dispurses, its more stuck to his own form and body as if he was still solid, just made out of mist instead of flesh, so I think the mist would be blown around as if it was still in Kains shape and he would simply have to reform, also whats stopping Malfurion from being sucked up? this would be pretty dangerous id say summoing a hurricane if Kain is going into close combat.

Well the shield stops physical harm coming to Kain, so perhaps it would lift up the shield with Kain inside it like one of those blow up balls people have fun in

But nobody draws magic through Kain, he simply has the authority to turn their magic off and regulate it, so its still very very diffrent, wheras Agamotto is actually the source of the magic Strange is trying to take. its like Agamotto has a cookie jar thats by law his own...strange is taking from it and Agamotto doesnt mind, Strange pisses the guy off so Agamotto puts a lid on the jar....well Kain doesnt really have a jar so to speak, he simply has the authority to shut other peoples lids even though their not his own.

The source of the magic is not being disturbed, its just being stopped, its like having traffic coming in from one section of the road, and then the red traffic light goes on and they stop, traffic still comes on, only ofcourse Kain is unlikely to let the light go green again, at least not while Archimonde is a threat.

What CIS? CIS is not usually taken into account, by default I think its often simply agreed characters have knowledge of eachother, their own spells etc etc and so will fight at the best of their abilities. Although under CIS I doubt Kain would hold back at all when facing the likes of someone so imposing as Archimonde, although with CIS enabled, Mediv and malfurion and other seeminly less imposing beings to look at, may gain an advantage.

hm although ive not seen evidence of it piercing reflections and in the end, your using gameplay mechanics to gauge its power in a real battle, didnt you say it could not target heroes? so then perhaps Kain simply cannot be targeted at all....peronally ive not played WC3 for a very long time, maybe ill try out some of these things myself.

Pardon my ignorance, Burning Though, but if I'm getting this right, Kain can only control magic if it's being drawn from these Pillars?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Define "controlling", since moving it around is controlling, what suggests Malfurion is immune to his own weather condition? nothing ive seen so far.....and the mist is made out of his form, so all youll see is a shape of Kain in the form of mist blowing around in the wind until he reforms, nothing suggests Kains form ever breaks apart and thats not going to help malfurion, if its broken apart then Kain would reform elseware which Malfurion wouldnt want him to do since it could be behind him, you wouldnt notice a stream of mist behind or around you during a hurricane would you....

I dont know, why would it? the mist form is simply Kain still, only mist instead of blood, then again, I dont see why he would mist if he uses his shield instead, he may as well teleport to Malfurion while shielded. Mist is better for stealth because its hard to track and very fast.

So its Agamattos dimension? its still Agamattos cookie jar....he doesnt have to show he can do it, all balance guardians can regulate magic as it says, thats what they do....its like saying all Eredar cannot do magic unless the peticulour eredar in question has feats of casting spells.....Kain doesnt allow, Kain is simply the binding between guardians and their pillars, he cannot afaik turn that connection on and off, that has no connection to our situation here, its nothing to do with Balance guardian regulation so technically Kain has no jar, he merely puts lids on them as I said before. Balance guardians regulate magic throughout the whole of Nosgoth, even without a balance guardian (when Ariel was slain) magic was still useable by all beings including the guardians, they just had no connection to their pillar, thus making them weak but thats nothing to do with the regulatory magic.

Its not a combat or non combat ability is it, its just a passive control to regulate magic. Although to be fair, kain has never had that ability in a combat situation, since as ive said before his corruption and soul are only restored at the end of Defiance, which is the last game.

Gameplay mechanics are not allowed, it says evidence form the games, such as cutscenes and perhaps logical statements. Kain is not affected for example by 20,000 shadow damage.....he has no numbers for his HP and this is a real battle anyway so Archimonde doesnt start with 4 and a half million HP for kain to wittle down for example.

I dont know about that, only Death knights are considered a hero class but enough discussing gameplay.

Lady Vashj quiet easily manipulates a hurrican making it move about as she wills and her control of the forces of nature is far below Malfurions. I was under the impression that if the mist which was his form became seperated then he would no longer be capable of reforming himself because his body had in his mist form been spread across a very large area. If he reformed (as in Balance Guardian I cannot die thing) that would technically count as a Kill ore a knockout and thus a Win.

That it is just like the Nosgoth worlds is Kain's cookie Jar, he allows what amount of magic that should be drawn from it by the Guardians, he according to you have control of the lit, just like Agamotto have control over the Magic that streams from his Dimension and too the mages that invokes his name and very similar from my point of view, Kain can restrict according to you restrict people from drawing magic from Nosgoth how can you then make the claim that he doesn't have a Jar? The Jar appears to be Nosgoth itself. And I will ask again BT please answer this time. Has the Balance Guardian ever cut a off a character not connected to the pillars off from his power? Yes ore No. So hold on a second even if the Balance Guardian are dead, that means that there are completely closed off from the Magic regulation which means that the power the Guardians get from Nosgoth through the pillars is zero because none regulats it as you say, none keep the flow up, but they can still draw magic just not from the Pillars then it looks more to me like the Guardian of Balance are in control of the magic flow from the pillars then in control of the magic throughout the entire Nosgoth because if the Balance Guardian was in complete control and the Pillars where unaccessable then the Magic in the Nosgoth would should have been unable to gain access too with that in mindthen Kain cannot in any way complete shut down Archimonde, he could perhaps if Archimonde required some to regulate the magical flow but he doesn't.

Theirfore we if CIS is active cannot use such a feat because Kain never utilizes it in game ore in a combat oriented situation, we cannot if CIS is active make speculation on what he can do, but will have to look at what he will do, and he will not based on the portrayed given of him in the game use regulation because that wouldn't apply as a natural way for him to depower ore kill a opponent, you see the point? If CIS is active then the entire talk about whether ore not Kain can use that ability will be pointless.

Sorry but the Rules on this site clearly stats otherwise. It says only FEATS seen, not stated ore anything else ANY other source is not to be consideret canon I doesn't agree with the rules but strictly speaking Kain Regulation of magic in a Combat Situation wouldn't be useable. No I'm fully aware of that but that wasn't the point the point was that in the game it pierces reflection etc, then according to the rules presented by Lana, is it?, it counts as doing that.

It was you that brought it up.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Pardon my ignorance, Burning Though, but if I'm getting this right, Kain can only control magic if it's being drawn from these Pillars?

That is what I'm getting too.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Lady Vashj quiet easily manipulates a hurrican making it move about as she wills and her control of the forces of nature is far below Malfurions. I was under the impression that if the mist which was his form became seperated then he would no longer be capable of reforming himself because his body had in his mist form been spread across a very large area. If he reformed (as in Balance Guardian I cannot die thing) that would technically count as a Kill ore a knockout and thus a Win.

That it is just like the Nosgoth worlds is Kain's cookie Jar, he allows what amount of magic that should be drawn from it by the Guardians, he according to you have control of the lit, just like Agamotto have control over the Magic that streams from his Dimension and too the mages that invokes his name and very similar from my point of view, Kain can restrict according to you restrict people from drawing magic from Nosgoth how can you then make the claim that he doesn't have a Jar? The Jar appears to be Nosgoth itself. And I will ask again BT please answer this time. Has the Balance Guardian ever cut a off a character not connected to the pillars off from his power? Yes ore No. So hold on a second even if the Balance Guardian are dead, that means that there are completely closed off from the Magic regulation which means that the power the Guardians get from Nosgoth through the pillars is zero because none regulats it as you say, none keep the flow up, but they can still draw magic just not from the Pillars then it looks more to me like the Guardian of Balance are in control of the magic flow from the pillars then in control of the magic throughout the entire Nosgoth because if the Balance Guardian was in complete control and the Pillars where unaccessable then the Magic in the Nosgoth would should have been unable to gain access too with that in mindthen Kain cannot in any way complete shut down Archimonde, he could perhaps if Archimonde required some to regulate the magical flow but he doesn't.

Theirfore we if CIS is active cannot use such a feat because Kain never utilizes it in game ore in a combat oriented situation, we cannot if CIS is active make speculation on what he can do, but will have to look at what he will do, and he will not based on the portrayed given of him in the game use regulation because that wouldn't apply as a natural way for him to depower ore kill a opponent, you see the point? If CIS is active then the entire talk about whether ore not Kain can use that ability will be pointless.

Sorry but the Rules on this site clearly stats otherwise. It says only FEATS seen, not stated ore anything else ANY other source is not to be consideret canon I doesn't agree with the rules but strictly speaking Kain Regulation of magic in a Combat Situation wouldn't be useable. No I'm fully aware of that but that wasn't the point the point was that in the game it pierces reflection etc, then according to the rules presented by Lana, is it?, it counts as doing that.

It was you that brought it up.

That doesnt prove they cannot be swallowed up by their own hurricanes. Theres nothing to suggest it can be seperated, in every form of mist, Kain stays pretty much in the same area, as if his body itself is still just as solid but in the form of mist, although when Kain goes through bars and seeps through cracks and crannies his body is apart so theres no reason a hurricane would stop him from reforming even if it does displace the mist.

No i mean reformed from mist into flesh.

Because technically Nosgoth is not his, their simply using magic, just like mages in Warcraft use magic yet certain beings can stop them from using magic in Warcraft, that doesnt mean they are manipulating the twisting nether, they are simply stopping that mage from using the Nether, the same would be with Kain, stopping Archimonde from using magic, Nosgoth for instance is not Kains in any way, shape or form (although technically it is in a physical sense since he is its only true ruler now) but in a magical sense its nothing like Agamottos dimension which is actually his magic to give or take away, wheras Kain neither created nor is the source for the magic he is cutting off or regulating. No. The guardians and other sorcorors can still use magic, theres just nobody making them weaker ,stronger, regulaing other beings magic....the magic still excists, the same is with anyone in Nosgoth, yet the balance guardian is regulator over all of Nosgoth, including the magic that is not tapped into through the pillars since only Guardians are tapped into the pillars and they do not represent the entirety of Nosgoth. The fact Balance guardians can regulate magic across Nosgoth itself shows Kain would indeed be capable of shutting off Archimonde since Nosgoths magic doesnt actually belong to, or come from the balance guardian, it always excists, however all the other guardians need their connection to the pillar to be attributed to its power.

How is character induced stupidity anything to do with powers? Characters who are under CIS simply means they may not use all their powers depending on their opponent, but since Kains opponent would be Archimonde in this sense, hes not likely to hold back any power..

Only in a gameplay mechanic does it pierce anything and ive still yet to be shown it not being reflected. And it says its based on feats whether their canon or not in a universe, the LOK series is based sololy on games so I dont really know whta your trying to get at, ive never tried to use anything other than the games for Kain since thats all there is of kain....


It was, but what your discussing is also gameplay about finger of death, which is only used in gameplay and whos only stats are in gameplay...

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Pardon my ignorance, Burning Though, but if I'm getting this right, Kain can only control magic if it's being drawn from these Pillars?

no thats false, only the guardians draw magic from the pillars, these guardians although aslo under regulation control of the balance guardian (atm its Kain) further need the Balance guardian to keep them connected to their pillar, but theres only a handful of guardians connected to the pillars, that does not explain the part that blance guardians regulate the magic throughout Nosgoth

Hmm. So how does it work? Does Kain simply decides who gets to use magic in his presence? Or does simply nobody gets to use magic in his presence? From what I gather it's the former. Does it require Kain to concentrate/think about it all the time? I mean, if Archimonde assaulted Kain with telekinesis, could he break(temporarily) Kain's control over magic? Because Archimonde's telekinetic assault on Malfurion made it "impossible to think".

Might I add, Malfurion demonstrated a very curious resistance to Archimonde's telekinesis. Archi's assault was so powerful that it flayed the flesh from the bones of a nearby nightsaber, who wasn't even the target of the assault, yet Malfurion survived(albeit barely) when something -- can't remember what right now -- interrupted Archi. It would also be useful to know that this assault wasn't even direct, it was executed through a... beetle

On another instance, Archi's telekinesis ripped off all the scales off of a fully grown dragon.

So even if Kain shut down Archimonde's ability to cast spells(and I'm giving this a fair benefit of a doubt), he would still get ripped to shreds by Archi's telekinesis... or by his claws.

Originally posted by Burning thought
That doesnt prove they cannot be swallowed up by their own hurricanes. Theres nothing to suggest it can be seperated, in every form of mist, Kain stays pretty much in the same area, as if his body itself is still just as solid but in the form of mist, although when Kain goes through bars and seeps through cracks and crannies his body is apart so theres no reason a hurricane would stop him from reforming even if it does displace the mist.

No i mean reformed from mist into flesh.

Because technically Nosgoth is not his, their simply using magic, just like mages in Warcraft use magic yet certain beings can stop them from using magic in Warcraft, that doesnt mean they are manipulating the twisting nether, they are simply stopping that mage from using the Nether, the same would be with Kain, stopping Archimonde from using magic, Nosgoth for instance is not Kains in any way, shape or form (although technically it is in a physical sense since he is its only true ruler now) but in a magical sense its nothing like Agamottos dimension which is actually his magic to give or take away, wheras Kain neither created nor is the source for the magic he is cutting off or regulating. No. The guardians and other sorcorors can still use magic, theres just nobody making them weaker ,stronger, regulaing other beings magic....the magic still excists, the same is with anyone in Nosgoth, yet the balance guardian is regulator over all of Nosgoth, including the magic that is not tapped into through the pillars since only Guardians are tapped into the pillars and they do not represent the entirety of Nosgoth. The fact Balance guardians can regulate magic across Nosgoth itself shows Kain would indeed be capable of shutting off Archimonde since Nosgoths magic doesnt actually belong to, or come from the balance guardian, it always excists, however all the other guardians need their connection to the pillar to be attributed to its power.

How is character induced stupidity anything to do with powers? Characters who are under CIS simply means they may not use all their powers depending on their opponent, but since Kains opponent would be Archimonde in this sense, hes not likely to hold back any power..

Only in a gameplay mechanic does it pierce anything and ive still yet to be shown it not being reflected. And it says its based on feats whether their canon or not in a universe, the LOK series is based sololy on games so I dont really know whta your trying to get at, ive never tried to use anything other than the games for Kain since thats all there is of kain....


It was, but what your discussing is also gameplay about finger of death, which is only used in gameplay and whos only stats are in gameplay...


When Lady Vashj can control hers and not being affected by it then yes it does. Yeah it stays in the same area under normal circumstances, a Hurricane isn't normal circumstances therefore I ask yet again in what weather resembling a Hurricane has Kain performed his mist form and kept it? And yes A Hurricane would stop, from what we have seen Kain needs to keep his Form relative close together so yeah it kind of would. Okay.

Let me make this entirely straight NONE in Warcraft has EVER restricted a Demon from Accessing the Twisted Nether. Medivh has stopped Khelgar but that could just as well have been a silenced spell, but even if it wasn't he didn't restrict Khelgar from the Nether Because Khelgar doesn't draw his power from the Nether. But the Pillars from which the Guardians draw their power is? Apparently so and what is the pillars connected to? Nosgoth. If he gives ore take away the magic like you claim then he is also the source of magic, Let me again refer to that the Balance Guardian is said to be the Hub the center of all the Magic flowing from the pillars. I take that No as a Balance Guardian have never used that power. Thanks for the straight answer. You are just forgetting ore perhaps overlooking one tiny little thing, when the Balance Guardian died the access to the Pillars was closed, not to the magic itself, according to this site
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Pillar_Guardians
The Balance Guardian have nothing to do with the entire magic of Nosgoth but rather the magic and the magic alone that originated from the pillars, and again it makes perfect sense, if the Guardians could no longer gain access to the power of the pillars because of the link in between gone then why should they be capable of accessing any magic at all?

Because they doesn't use them as we think they should, for instance when Galactus and Odin is thrown into a battle in the comic section then we apply bloodlust because else Galactus would probably begin to feast on the Planet and Odin would depart, with CIS we take into account the mindset of the Characters, that would mean that Kain for instance will not use his regulation of magic because he has never done that like Archimonde beginning his battle with Finger of Death would be equally unlikely, but Kain Beginning with Telekinetic just like Artificial stated below that Archimonde most likely will do, that will be entirely acceptable to use as a opening from both. therefore I asked is CIS on here?

Well I'm gonna have to take Artificial's word on that because I doesn't play WoW and that would require that we locate a video where we know as a fact that the Character getting hit have a Spell reflect on.. How exactly are we going to do that? I know what the LoK is based on but the feat that we are discussing currently Regulation of Magic have never been used against a Opponent therefore it would like Archimondes Telekinetic not be a usable Feat, according to the rules, which I does disagree with, the reason I brought it up was because of you mentioning that you considered things stated in Lore (normally that would equal outside sources like books) more canon then gameplay but as of these rules it's the other way around.

Yes because according to the rules of this forum then what is used is gameplay is considered canon therefore a Finger Of Death against Kain would be Canon, A Hurricane from Malfurion wouldn't and Kain's regulation of magic wouldn't either.

Originally posted by Utrigita
When Lady Vashj can control hers and not being affected by it then yes it does. Yeah it stays in the same area under normal circumstances, a Hurricane isn't normal circumstances therefore I ask yet again in what weather resembling a Hurricane has Kain performed his mist form and kept it? And yes A Hurricane would stop, from what we have seen Kain needs to keep his Form relative close together so yeah it kind of would. Okay.

Let me make this entirely straight NONE in Warcraft has EVER restricted a Demon from Accessing the Twisted Nether. Medivh has stopped Khelgar but that could just as well have been a silenced spell, but even if it wasn't he didn't restrict Khelgar from the Nether Because Khelgar doesn't draw his power from the Nether. But the Pillars from which the Guardians draw their power is? Apparently so and what is the pillars connected to? Nosgoth. If he gives ore take away the magic like you claim then he is also the source of magic, Let me again refer to that the Balance Guardian is said to be the Hub the center of all the Magic flowing from the pillars. I take that No as a Balance Guardian have never used that power. Thanks for the straight answer. You are just forgetting ore perhaps overlooking one tiny little thing, when the Balance Guardian died the access to the Pillars was closed, not to the magic itself, according to this site
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Pillar_Guardians
The Balance Guardian have nothing to do with the entire magic of Nosgoth but rather the magic and the magic alone that originated from the pillars, and again it makes perfect sense, if the Guardians could no longer gain access to the power of the pillars because of the link in between gone then why should they be capable of accessing any magic at all?

Because they doesn't use them as we think they should, for instance when Galactus and Odin is thrown into a battle in the comic section then we apply bloodlust because else Galactus would probably begin to feast on the Planet and Odin would depart, with CIS we take into account the mindset of the Characters, that would mean that Kain for instance will not use his regulation of magic because he has never done that like Archimonde beginning his battle with Finger of Death would be equally unlikely, but Kain Beginning with Telekinetic just like Artificial stated below that Archimonde most likely will do, that will be entirely acceptable to use as a opening from both. therefore I asked is CIS on here?

Well I'm gonna have to take Artificial's word on that because I doesn't play WoW and that would require that we locate a video where we know as a fact that the Character getting hit have a Spell reflect on.. How exactly are we going to do that? I know what the LoK is based on but the feat that we are discussing currently Regulation of Magic have never been used against a Opponent therefore it would like Archimondes Telekinetic not be a usable Feat, according to the rules, which I does disagree with, the reason I brought it up was because of you mentioning that you considered things stated in Lore (normally that would equal outside sources like books) more canon then gameplay but as of these rules it's the other way around.

Yes because according to the rules of this forum then what is used is gameplay is considered canon therefore a Finger Of Death against Kain would be Canon, A Hurricane from Malfurion wouldn't and Kain's regulation of magic wouldn't either.

When did lady Vashj do this? can you show me a quote of what it says please, perhaps the quote itself your using and 3/4 lines before and after it so I know the background. Nothing points to kain requiring to keep his mist close together, his mist just seems to stay with him where he goes, its likely it couldnt be displaced anymore than kains body would be by a hurricane.

Have any tried? so what does Khelgar draw his magic from? if it was indeed another source nad mediv resistrcted him its the same thing, just a diffrent source.

No, the pillars are not the balance guardians either, its just a passive connection, I dont think the balance guardian can turn on and off the Guardians connection to the pillars. No wrong, hes not the source of magic he simply regulates it...let me clear some things up for you:

-balance guardians are the passive connection to the other guardians, to the pillars...without the connection, they lose the power of thier pillars magic, yet they still have their own, the magic itself of the world still excists, although without their connection its assumed their far weaker since they are losing out on their own pillar power.

-Balance guardains as shown regulate the magic in Nosgoh as a whole, this has no connection to the above

-So in a way, Balance guardians are the hub of the pillars, they are the connection but magic itself does not go out like a light if a balance guardian dies, it simply breaks the link to the pillars and they dont regulate..since their dead.

That website is just a random wikia who anyone can type into, it seems like its a combination of various texts since if you click on the "balance guardian" section on that very page youll find the very quote that can be found on the Dark chroncile website that I use.

And yes, the guardians use magic when the link is gone and Ariel the balance guardian at the time was dead...

CIS is based around as i said before what a character would do in a combat situation, Kains TK has shown to be of little use against larger beings so he wouldnt use that, its more likely he iwll use soul devouring tactics or freeze Archimonde in time with incapacite. The fact Kain has never used regulation in combat (since hes never had the chance, he gaisn it at the end of the final game) is no reason why he wouldnt regulate Archimonde or anyone else, its a perfectly likely course of action if he belives Archimonde to be magic user.

Nothing states a spell or ability has to be actually used in the game/fiction for it to excist or be used in combat....and false, as of these rules, things from the games are canon, it says nothing about gameplay itself, gameplay is a seperate piece of illogicless crap, with gameplay enabled the Paladins shield could indeed survive a full blast from the Living tribunal because in gameplay its immune....its a gameplay mechanic, their never allowed in debates.

No evidence from the games themselves are considered canon, nothing is stated about gameplay, goodluck proving how 20k shadow damage is going to affect Kain who has no health points anyway......

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Hmm. So how does it work? Does Kain simply decides who gets to use magic in his presence? Or does simply nobody gets to use magic in his presence? From what I gather it's the former. Does it require Kain to concentrate/think about it all the time? I mean, if Archimonde assaulted Kain with telekinesis, could he break(temporarily) Kain's control over magic? Because Archimonde's telekinetic assault on Malfurion made it "impossible to think".

Might I add, Malfurion demonstrated a very curious resistance to Archimonde's telekinesis. Archi's assault was so powerful that it flayed the flesh from the bones of a nearby nightsaber, who wasn't even the target of the assault, yet Malfurion survived(albeit barely) when something -- can't remember what right now -- interrupted Archi. It would also be useful to know that this assault wasn't even direct, it was executed through a... beetle

On another instance, Archi's telekinesis ripped off all the scales off of a fully grown dragon.

So even if Kain shut down Archimonde's ability to cast spells(and I'm giving this a fair benefit of a doubt), he would still get ripped to shreds by Archi's telekinesis... or by his claws.

Its just regulation, if you regulate something ,you govern it, so Kain is the judge and government behind Magic. And its not just in his presence, its planetwide, (well Nosgoth wide which may be a continent or a planet, sometimes its unclear). I dont think TK is going to stop Kain from using regulation since its just a physical blast, although ime not sure if Kain has to think about it for it to happen, I highly doubt it, its likely a passive or on a whim, since magic would likely be unstable if he had to think about it constantly to keep it under his control.

As intersting as that seems, it sounds like perhaps if your magically strong enough you have resistance to his TK? ime not sure...

Unless Kain becomes a mist form, shields himself making him immune from both of those attacks and simply does a Blood shower, incapaciate or soul rip. And thats if Kain doesnt just power up all his spells with his own regulation, since its unlikely that he will fight without using the full power of his regulatory powers for himself even if for some odd reason he couldnt regulate Archimonde.

Khelgar? I'm sure he meant Khadgar . Khadgar, like any other mage/sorcerer/warlock/whatever draws magic from the Twisting Nether.

About Malfurion. I'm sure he is pretty much immune to his own weather effects. Remember how he messed up Azshara's palace? The thunderstorm he summoned was so strong that it destroyed the enchanted stone tower where the portal was located. Xavius was mere meters away from Malfurion when many bolts of lightning struck Xavius. Malfurion was in the middle of all this, yet not even a single hair fell off of his head.

About the magical resistance to telekinesis. First of all, Malfurion is a druid, he has little magical power. Druidism has nothing to do with the magic of the Twisting Nether(arcane). Dragons have magical prowess that dwarfs that of many mortal spellcasters, yet it didn't help against Archi's telekinetic assault.

About the mist now. Fine, Kain's mist form is solid enough to not be dispersed by a hurricane, tornado or a storm or whatever. All's good and well, but don't turn around a minute later and say that he wouldn't be affected by Finger of Death, telekinesis or any other spell while in mist.

I must admit it I don't know how this 'shield' works. Can it hold out infinite amounts of physical damage? That's assuming that Archi's telekinesis wouldn't pierce it in the first place. Blood Shower? Is that the ability that makes people poop blood ? Well, Archimonde doesn't have blood, not anymore. Those time stopping abilities better be damn powerful, because otherwise it wouldn't have much of effect against Archi, if at all.

The only way I see it if he could use his regulatory powers to drain Archimonde of his magic. In that case we would see something similar to what we saw at Mt. Hyjal, but the resulting explosion would still kill Kain.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Khelgar? I'm sure he meant Khadgar . Khadgar, like any other mage/sorcerer/warlock/whatever draws magic from the Twisting Nether.

Yeah Khadgar my bad. I would say that the Arcane magic based on the handbook "lands of mystery" originates (mostly) from the well of eternity, not saying that they cannot draw power from the twisted nether but most mages will most likely draw from the Arcane energy that is being spread from the Well.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Khelgar? I'm sure he meant Khadgar . Khadgar, like any other mage/sorcerer/warlock/whatever draws magic from the Twisting Nether.

About Malfurion. I'm sure he is pretty much immune to his own weather effects. Remember how he messed up Azshara's palace? The thunderstorm he summoned was so strong that it destroyed the enchanted stone tower where the portal was located. Xavius was mere meters away from Malfurion when many bolts of lightning struck Xavius. Malfurion was in the middle of all this, yet not even a single hair fell off of his head.

About the magical resistance to telekinesis. First of all, Malfurion is a druid, he has little magical power. Druidism has nothing to do with the magic of the Twisting Nether(arcane). Dragons have magical prowess that dwarfs that of many mortal spellcasters, yet it didn't help against Archi's telekinetic assault.

About the mist now. Fine, Kain's mist form is solid enough to not be dispersed by a hurricane, tornado or a storm or whatever. All's good and well, but don't turn around a minute later and say that he wouldn't be affected by Finger of Death, telekinesis or any other spell while in mist.

I must admit it I don't know how this 'shield' works. Can it hold out infinite amounts of physical damage? That's assuming that Archi's telekinesis wouldn't pierce it in the first place. Blood Shower? Is that the ability that makes people poop blood ? Well, Archimonde doesn't have blood, not anymore. Those time stopping abilities better be damn powerful, because otherwise it wouldn't have much of effect against Archi, if at all.

The only way I see it if he could use his regulatory powers to drain Archimonde of his magic. In that case we would see something similar to what we saw at Mt. Hyjal, but the resulting explosion would still kill Kain.

hm ok

But for all we know thats just luck, lightning does not always strike where you imagine it would, its still not proven that Malfurion is immune to all natural effects that he creates, a hurricane could still indeed harm him or toss him about. It wouldnt make sense if it didnt.

Druidism is still magic, natural magic....and Malfurion is not really much of a mortal.

Why? they are all physical or at least those you listed there, theres no reason why a bolt of energy would destroy mist, it would simply float through, and a telekinetic attack woudlnt do anything to a cloud of mist and I didnt say the mist was "solid" per se, simply never broken, even if kain is moving through bars or seeping through things, the mist doesnt get broken or move apart and as I said before, theres no reason why he doesnt just reform into the mist wherever it may have gone to after the hurricane, it doesnt just cease to be Kain does it.

The shield is powered by Kains magic which is indeed infnite unless he puts regulation on himself but unless kain is playing stupid in this gauntlet I dont see him doing that. But the shield is never broken by anything in LOK, ofc the only time Kain uses the shield he is in his weakest form as well and does not have access to the regulation the balance guardian would possess. Does anything prove he doesnt have blood? why? their just bolts that freeze time, Archimonde has never resistaed being frozen in time before to my knowledge...

Well, the resulting explosion would, unelss Kain is simply a gust of mist or is inside the shield.

Originally posted by Burning thought
hm ok

But for all we know thats just luck, lightning does not always strike where you imagine it would, its still not proven that Malfurion is immune to all natural effects that he creates, a hurricane could still indeed harm him or toss him about. It wouldnt make sense if it didnt.

Druidism is still magic, natural magic....and Malfurion is not really much of a mortal.

Why? they are all physical or at least those you listed there, theres no reason why a bolt of energy would destroy mist, it would simply float through, and a telekinetic attack woudlnt do anything to a cloud of mist and I didnt say the mist was "solid" per se, simply never broken, even if kain is moving through bars or seeping through things, the mist doesnt get broken or move apart and as I said before, theres no reason why he doesnt just reform into the mist wherever it may have gone to after the hurricane, it doesnt just cease to be Kain does it.

The shield is powered by Kains magic which is indeed infnite unless he puts regulation on himself but unless kain is playing stupid in this gauntlet I dont see him doing that. But the shield is never broken by anything in LOK, ofc the only time Kain uses the shield he is in his weakest form as well and does not have access to the regulation the balance guardian would possess. Does anything prove he doesnt have blood? why? their just bolts that freeze time, Archimonde has never resistaed being frozen in time before to my knowledge...

Well, the resulting explosion would, unelss Kain is simply a gust of mist or is inside the shield.

Damn, what don't you know about Kain?

the things that are not shown in the games :P yet....

^Hehe, you know more than the damn creators lol.

I wish

So you're saying that Kain has infinite magic? So he's basically omnipotent? He puts up this shield around himself and nobody can hurt him?

What's to say that telekinesis couldn't affect mist? It's not something intangible, it's dissolved water. Same with spells.

Not omnipotent, you cannot have true omnipotence with access to just a handfull of diffrent magics, Kain has his varied spells, he has his connection to the pillars to empower their aspects within himself, but at most, an omnipotent being would need far more than that, what use is a shielding spell of infnite power when your opponent can think you out of excistence? an omnipotent being would not be defeated like that but Kain could.

Its not intangible but you would have to prove Archimonde can Tk things as small as mist droplets. And not just any spell would be effective, a blast of energy would not help much against such a thin material.

Anyway, I've read that Kain is The Scion of Balance of Nosgoth and that he regulates everyone's magic in Nosgoth. Seeing as how fights like these usually take place on a neutral ground, Kain wouldn't have access to those Pillars or at least wouldn't be able to control Archi's magic(not like he was ever shown to face somebody of Archimonde's magical power and be able to regulate). Yes, he gained it at the end of the game and we must make assumptions. This is starting to look horribly alike to a certain other very active thread on this forum

Where is it said/shown that this shield can absorb infinite amounts of physical damage?

Well, when Archimonde was wounded by Malorne, he "bled" some kinda green, flaming liquid.

About the mist. Well, Archimonde could just make a telekinetic "bubble" around the mist, and then squeeze it. He has never been shown to do this, although such an advanced TK user like Archi should be able to do this. Of course this is just some "creativity" and speculation from my side.

Even though spells like Finger of Death might not be able hit Kain while in mist form, curses would definitely work.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Anyway, I've read that Kain is The Scion of Balance of Nosgoth and that he regulates everyone's magic in Nosgoth. Seeing as how fights like these usually take place on a neutral ground, Kain wouldn't have access to those Pillars or at least wouldn't be able to control Archi's magic(not like he was ever shown to face somebody of Archimonde's magical power and be able to regulate). Yes, he gained it at the end of the game and we must make assumptions. This is starting to look horribly alike to a certain other very active thread on this forum

Where is it said/shown that this shield can absorb infinite amounts of physical damage?

Well, when Archimonde was wounded by Malorne, he "bled" some kinda green, flaming liquid.

About the mist. Well, Archimonde could just make a telekinetic "bubble" around the mist, and then squeeze it. He has never been shown to do this, although such an advanced TK user like Archi should be able to do this. Of course this is just some "creativity" and speculation from my side.

Even though spells like Finger of Death might not be able hit Kain while in mist form, curses would definitely work.


Thats like saying Archimonde is a powerful magic user in Wacraft and he only has cast spells in warcraft and he has only access to the Twisting nether in Warcraft.....ofc it doesnt work does it?

its in the unwritten rules of any debate that by default all characters have access to all their abilities no matter where they are from and that the abilities work the same as if they were in the world they had come from.

Theres no assumption here.

Its just logic, Kains shield is made up of Kains magical energy, Kains magical energy is infnite.....clear enough for you?


so he "bled", so he has blood, the fact its firey, or a strange colour doesnt mean its not blood....

Creativity and specualtion is not usable in a debate, its logicless because Archimonde has never done it, nor would anything point to it being likely considering TK is just telekinetic force, forming a bubble of TK is like a completly diffretn ability all together rather than a blast.

Depends what the curses do, you have to realise Kain is an undead vampire whos soul has proven several times to be untouchable and that he has zero blood in his body....

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its just logic, Kains shield is made up of Kains magical energy, Kains magical energy is infnite.....clear enough for you?

Where does it state he has infinite amount of magical energy?

Originally posted by Burning thought
so he "bled", so he has blood, the fact its firey, or a strange colour doesnt mean its not blood....

Well, if you can call it blood. Definitely not blood like humans or even vampires have.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Creativity and specualtion is not usable in a debate, its logicless because Archimonde has never done it, nor would anything point to it being likely considering TK is just telekinetic force, forming a bubble of TK is like a completly diffretn ability all together rather than a blast.

Yes, it's speculation and I'm not exactly saying that it holds much water here. And while Archimonde can perform TK blasts, it obviously wasn't a 'blast' that Archi was using on Malfurion, Malfurion was getting crushed(more accurately his head/brain 'squeezed'), not blown away.

Depends what the curses do, you have to realise Kain is an undead vampire whos soul has proven several times to be untouchable and that he has zero blood in his body....

Curses that ruin/burn the body, turn his target into stone, melt the flesh and skin from the bones.

Btw, Nosgoth is a world(continent?), Warcraft is an entire universe.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Where does it state he has infinite amount of magical energy?



Well, if you can call it blood. Definitely not blood like humans or even vampires have.



Yes, it's speculation and I'm not exactly saying that it holds much water here. And while Archimonde can perform TK blasts, it obviously wasn't a 'blast' that Archi was using on Malfurion, Malfurion was getting crushed(more accurately his head/brain 'squeezed'), not blown away.

Depends what the curses do, you have to realise Kain is an undead vampire whos soul has proven several times to be untouchable and that he has zero blood in his body....

Curses that ruin/burn the body, turn his target into stone, melt the flesh and skin from the bones.

Btw, Nosgoth is a world(continent?), Warcraft is an entire universe.

When it says he can regulate it, if you govern and control magic itself, your not going to use any less than all of it are you for yourself, especialyy not in a battle that could cost you your life otherwise. Kain in this fight would use all the magic in his shield wouldnt he or w/e other powers he needs to use at the time. And if he can drain Archimondess magic as well, he would have access to the power of the twisting Nether as well, but he wouldnt need it, it would just be interesting to note.

no its not, but Kain kills demons and drinks their blood in Bllood omen with blood shower and their blood is poison for him because its green, you have to avoid it.

Well its similiar, Tk blast, this sounds like less than a blast, its just a pressure of TK. Can does a weaker one on the neck of Moebius.

Everything in warcraft revolves around one world though, you only hear about the others in the short backstory, and regardless how would that change anything? it doesnt, the fact is that your saying just because someone is from a diffrent universe or fiction that he wouldnt use his power, when in this neutral universe, its accepted all characters can use all their abilities otherwise its not logically an all out fight.

So it is simply stated at the end of the last game, correct?

no he gains it at the end, the powers and abilities of the guardians are stated throughout the games, however at the end we see Kain regain this power as interestinly every soul of every Balance guardian to ever live empowers him, the broken corrupted pieces of Kains soul are also restored, they were corrupted I think by Nupruptor if I get my BO 1 correct who corrupted most of the guardians if not all with his Psychic scream across the world, but at the end of Defiance, Kain is healed and becomes fully powered.

Also by logic, Kain also has the powers of his sons due to their souls joining with his at the end of defiance, this means Kain is now immune to damage by water from Rahab, can go completly immaterial from Malchiah etc etc

And how many times has he been shown using these powers?

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
And how many times has he been shown using these powers?

Utrigous answered. why do people ask obvious questiosn after ive said the last game was Defiance...which just happens to be the very end, the final cinematic where kain gains powers.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Utrigous answered. why do people ask obvious questiosn after ive said the last game was Defiance...which just happens to be the very end, the final cinematic where kain gains powers.

It's Utrigita

And you see that is my problem with using Scion Kain, that he is a character that we have absolutely no showings from, what he can do will from my point of view always be speculation. Theirfore BT if CIS is active well again we cannot use him because we doesn't know how he will react.

Now had we had a showing of a Balance Guardian that used his control over the magic of Nosgoth to make sure that another Character couldn't access magic whatsoever, I would be reluctant to use the feat (because of the different magic discussed before) but in the end still accept it, but BT from my point of view we stand with Nothing that supports that. Sure I can see that in some ways the quotes can be seen as Kain with control over all magic but when no proof of it actually exist, then my debate mind jumps right out of the closet and hammers me in the head saying that such a ability used in a combat scenario will always be speculation.

Basically that is what we have spent the last four pages on, arguing over quotes that we analyse and jugde entire differently. We wouldn't get any further then this it will just be running around in circles for the next five pages, imo Kain stops at Archimonde.

So just like Sephiroth was stated to be the most powerful person in FF7 but has never been actually shown to use his powers, Kain was stated to gain these "infinite" powers, regulation or whatever but has never been shown using any of it?

I suggest from now on we use actual feats that were seen, not implied or suggested, or assumed. There are enough double-standards as it is.

Originally posted by Utrigita
It's Utrigita

And you see that is my problem with using Scion Kain, that he is a character that we have absolutely no showings from, what he can do will from my point of view always be speculation. Theirfore BT if CIS is active well again we cannot use him because we doesn't know how he will react.

Now had we had a showing of a Balance Guardian that used his control over the magic of Nosgoth to make sure that another Character couldn't access magic whatsoever, I would be reluctant to use the feat (because of the different magic discussed before) but in the end still accept it, but BT from my point of view we stand with Nothing that supports that. Sure I can see that in some ways the quotes can be seen as Kain with control over all magic but when no proof of it actually exist, then my debate mind jumps right out of the closet and hammers me in the head saying that such a ability used in a combat scenario will always be speculation.

Basically that is what we have spent the last four pages on, arguing over quotes that we analyse and jugde entire differently. We wouldn't get any further then this it will just be running around in circles for the next five pages, imo Kain stops at Archimonde.

Its still Kain, ofc we know how he would react, the only diffrence is that he can hit you with a blast of energy powered by an infnite source to rip through his opponent rather than tossing you about with TK when you piss him off....theres no reason why he wouldnt use an ability, why wouldnt he use regulation? give me a reason why Kain in character would never use regulation when Archimonde is towering above him..magic reeking from every pore...every reason behind Scion Kain is that the guy is logic, crystal clear logic and mostly undeniable fact, he has been stated to have regulation. For example Living tribnual is stated to be omnipotent or all powerful....but you cannot really show omnipotence, yet its still a usable power for LT.

Its regulation, the fact Kain just happens to be in combat doesnt make a diffrence does it, can you explain your logic? if Kain was walking across Nosgoth and some crazed fanatic tossed a spell at him, suddenly just because Kain is in a combat scenario he loses all his abilities hes not used in combat? it doesnt make sense at all....

Kain would not stop on any of them since you brought the rules of this forum to my attension, everything Kain does is in his games and since all canon feats from games for Archimonde and other Warcraft charactes are very few (Archimonde destroying Dalaren) and giving him few varities of powers Kain could probably clear most of this gauntlet with ease and without trouble since most of them canot use a single fact, quote or feat from their novels, RPGs etc etc

for example Kain would just walk up to Mediv and punch through his stomach, end off....add CIS to that and Mediv would prob start jabbering on about prophecy and Kain would just sigh with disgust at a human speaking to him and slice his neck open, drink his blood.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
So just like Sephiroth was stated to be the most powerful person in FF7 but has never been actually shown to use his powers, Kain was stated to gain these "infinite" powers, regulation or whatever but has never been shown using any of it?

I suggest from now on we use actual feats that were seen, not implied or suggested, or assumed. There are enough double-standards as it is.

No because thats logicless, Sephiroth has not shown any reason to be above most of these characters and furthermore, its the very role of the characters, not actually using the power doesnt mean it doesnt excist unlike the huge assumption Sephiroth is above all beings in FF which is logicless. Kains sons have powers they have shown, Kain gains these powers....its crystal clear to me that he doesnt have to actually use them for him to have them, same with regulation, its simply something balance guardians have as part of the LOK universe, it cannot simply be struck out because theyve not done it as part of a feat otherwise most beings in games VS woudnt have any feats at all, since a feat is usually in a cinematic or otherwise, gameplay does not count as feats.

Then kain automatically wins, considering that all Archimonde has shown in fact as a feat is his only cinematic in the games he originates in is when he gets killed OR his destruction of Dalaren...but no thats nonsense, theres too many abilities on either side that have not actually be shown as a feat.

It's not logicless since the creators themselves have been said to have stated that... multiple times.

Yes, Kain's sons... like those 3 dudes that Sephiroth has somehow created?

Anyway, let's use actual feats now. If Kain has never been shown to use regulation or infinite magic, or whatever, then it's not used.

Edit

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
It's not logicless since the creators themselves have been said to have stated that... multiple times.

Yes, Kain's sons... like those 3 dudes that Sephiroth has somehow created?

Anyway, let's use actual feats now. If Kain has never been shown to use regulation or infinite magic, or whatever, then it's not used.

yes it is, the statement itself is without logic...

no its not like that, Sephiroth created his remnants, who have seperate abilities, yet although Kains sons are similiar in design Kain regains their souls and power that he put into them at the end of Defiance along with Raziels healing.

If you want to use feats go ahead, name me a feat of Archimondes.

Originally posted by Burning thought
yes it is, the statement itself is without logic...

Yes, without logic when it's used against you.


Originally posted by Burning thought If you want to use feats go ahead, name me a feat of Archimondes.

Not taking any damage, summoning demons, using Finger of Death if you were stupid enough to aggro him, changing his size, destroyed the whole Night Elven base/army by simply raising his hand. This is just what we've seen from the last mission of WC3:RoC.

I mean, you may say that it's merely game mechanics, but Kain doing 90% of his stuff is game mechanics also.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Yes, without logic when it's used against you.




Not taking any damage, summoning demons, using Finger of Death if you were stupid enough to aggro him, changing his size, destroyed the whole Night Elven base/army by simply raising his hand. This is just what we've seen from the last mission of WC3:RoC.

I mean, you may say that it's merely game mechanics, but Kain doing 90% of his stuff is game mechanics also.

not really...how is the statement logical if you belive its logical? and furthermore actual characters attirbutes of what they can do cannot really be hyperbole or logicless, its simply an ability.

canonically hes not hit by anything in the games, he simply gets destroyed by wisps AKA natures power.

I dont remember him doing that, can you show me him destrying the night elf base by raising his hand.

No its not, not at all, a game mechanic is 20,000 damage defeating someone with 1000 health, a game mechanic is having to pick up shiny stars to increase magic levels, a game mechanic is mainly things that can be identified that make the game possible. In Warcraft, 20,000 damage is part of a game mechanic....

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont remember him doing that, can you show me him destrying the night elf base by raising his hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svH5xe_t0-w

It was then specified later that he did it with raising his hand but in this clip it looks like when he is summoning infernals however the effect produced is different. 7:04

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t2wFPfT4zQ&feature=channel_page

Near the end of the video.

Originally posted by Utrigita
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svH5xe_t0-w

It was then specified later that he did it with raising his hand but in this clip it looks like when he is summoning infernals however the effect produced is different. 7:04

specified later? when later?

Originally posted by Burning thought
specified later? when later?

In WoW I believe in the encounter you have with him there.

He simply did the same animation when summoning infernals(Rain of Chaos) or when being a dick to somebody. Actually, he did it all the time. :P