The Galactic Empire vs. The Covenant and Yuuzhan Vong

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TheEskimo
Hey everybody thought I would make my first post on this forum in here. Mainly since I had just had a discussion with a friend who feels that if the Covenant and Vong combined forces they would take out the Empire. In his scenario Overlord Shimmra is the leader of the new covenant and the prophets have become his advisers. I am inclined to agree, however i am not very well versed in my knowledge of the Empire, so hopefully this discussion will be a learning experience for me. Oh, almost forgot this is the Empire as of ROTJ.

Cpt. Valerian
LOL, the prophets his advisers? They'd betray the **** out of him and then they'll lose the war with their idiotic philosophies.

Lord Lucien
The Empire as of RotJ was the Empire at its peak. 25,000 Imperator-class Star Destroyers and countless support craft, two Executor-class Star Destroyers, most of the galaxy under Palpatine's fist, an incomplete yet operational Death Star, and of course Palpatine himself.

The Covenant is a non-factor. As numerous as they are, their plasma based technology doesn't yield a power outage great enough to combat the outage of Star Wars technology. E.g.: The Clone Wars era Acclamator-class troop transport's main batteries had energy output in the millions of gigawatts. Remember, that's a troop transport, not a capital ship, and it's 20 odd years behind the highly advanced Imperial technology. The Covenant technology, while superior, could still be damaged and destroyed by Earth technology which strangely still focused on projectile weaponry even in the 26th century. The damage and penetration of their shielding and armor by physical projectiles is testament to the gargantuan disadvantage the Covenant faces in the wake of near-pure energy beams.

And no one bother bringing up any possible ground advantage the Covenant has (it does have them, the AT-ATs, despite their reputation as being elite assault units lack energy shielding so it is possible the plasma of the more maneuverable Wraith could burn through the metal armor). The Imperial fleet, faced with a possible defeat on the surface will resort to executing a Base Delta Zero operation, that is to say, the orbital bombardment of ground units from space. The Covenant does not have the capacity to resist it either.

That illegal topic covered, the Vong were hesitant to attack a divided and severely weakened Imperial Remnant circa 17 years following Endor (I may be wrong, but that date is close). Needless to say, a full operational and organized Empire under Palpatine's command will defeat the Vong.

Darth Rex
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The Empire as of RotJ was the Empire at its peak. 25,000 Imperator-class Star Destroyers and countless support craft, two Executor-class Star Destroyers, most of the galaxy under Palpatine's fist, an incomplete yet operational Death Star, and of course Palpatine himself.

The Covenant is a non-factor. As numerous as they are, their plasma based technology doesn't yield a power outage great enough to combat the outage of Star Wars technology. E.g.: The Clone Wars era Acclamator-class troop transport's main batteries had energy output in the millions of gigawatts. Remember, that's a troop transport, not a capital ship, and it's 20 odd years behind the highly advanced Imperial technology. The Covenant technology, while superior, could still be damaged and destroyed by Earth technology which strangely still focused on projectile weaponry even in the 26th century. The damage and penetration of their shielding and armor by physical projectiles is testament to the gargantuan disadvantage the Covenant faces in the wake of near-pure energy beams.

And no one bother bringing up any possible ground advantage the Covenant has (it does have them, the AT-ATs, despite their reputation as being elite assault units lack energy shielding so it is possible the plasma of the more maneuverable Wraith could burn through the metal armor). The Imperial fleet, faced with a possible defeat on the surface will resort to executing a Base Delta Zero operation, that is to say, the orbital bombardment of ground units from space. The Covenant does not have the capacity to resist it either.

That illegal topic covered, the Vong were hesitant to attack a divided and severely weakened Imperial Remnant circa 17 years following Endor (I may be wrong, but that date is close). Needless to say, a full operational and organized Empire under Palpatine's command will defeat the Vong.

The Empire may have been evil and everything
But its army and navy rocked
Totally agree with Lord Lucien
Nice answer mate

TheEskimo
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The Empire as of RotJ was the Empire at its peak. 25,000 Imperator-class Star Destroyers and countless support craft, two Executor-class Star Destroyers, most of the galaxy under Palpatine's fist, an incomplete yet operational Death Star, and of course Palpatine himself.

The Covenant is a non-factor. As numerous as they are, their plasma based technology doesn't yield a power outage great enough to combat the outage of Star Wars technology. E.g.: The Clone Wars era Acclamator-class troop transport's main batteries had energy output in the millions of gigawatts. Remember, that's a troop transport, not a capital ship, and it's 20 odd years behind the highly advanced Imperial technology. The Covenant technology, while superior, could still be damaged and destroyed by Earth technology which strangely still focused on projectile weaponry even in the 26th century. The damage and penetration of their shielding and armor by physical projectiles is testament to the gargantuan disadvantage the Covenant faces in the wake of near-pure energy beams.

And no one bother bringing up any possible ground advantage the Covenant has (it does have them, the AT-ATs, despite their reputation as being elite assault units lack energy shielding so it is possible the plasma of the more maneuverable Wraith could burn through the metal armor). The Imperial fleet, faced with a possible defeat on the surface will resort to executing a Base Delta Zero operation, that is to say, the orbital bombardment of ground units from space. The Covenant does not have the capacity to resist it either.

That illegal topic covered, the Vong were hesitant to attack a divided and severely weakened Imperial Remnant circa 17 years following Endor (I may be wrong, but that date is close). Needless to say, a full operational and organized Empire under Palpatine's command will defeat the Vong.

Actually according to Frank O'Connor former Bungie PR Head, there may be something more to The Covenant's weaponry, that the actual technology is not plasma as we know it, but something far more dangerous, arcane, and destructive.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by TheEskimo
Actually according to Frank O'Connor former Bungie PR Head, there may be something more to The Covenant's weaponry, that the actual technology is not plasma as we know it, but something far more dangerous, arcane, and destructive.

Oh well I guess that settles it then. OH wait, you haven't really told us anything. Lucien is 100% correct.

Elite Hunter
The Covenant don't even know how use their own technology to its full potential. In Halo First Strike, Cortana notes that the Covenant is "imitative not innovated." If humanity had proper time and access to Covenant technology Cortana thought they could out think the Covenant and stood a chance to win the war against the Covenant. And I'm talking about a straight up war with no CCW or Flood activity that we see in Halo 2 and 3.

Then another problem is the mistrust inside the Covenant itself such as the fact that the Elites don't trust the brutes so any ship captained by a brute is stripped of many vital systems.

Gideon
I would be careful to cite the internal weaknesses of the various factions as a detriment; remember, if Palpatine is somehow assassinated during this battle, the Empire would collapse instantly into warlordism. That is how fragile their affairs are. Fortunately for them, they fear the old bastard far too much to openly defy him.

The Empire wins due to vastly superior militaristic, naval, productional, and numerical advantages. However, I'd say that with the exception of higher-end Imperial infantry and their support vehicles, the Covenant and Vong would dominate ground engagements.

By the way, Lucien, the Empire held "dozens" of Super Star Destroyers if Han's comment about "command ships" in RotJ is to be taken as fact.

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by Gideon
I would be careful to cite the internal weaknesses of the various factions as a detriment; remember, if Palpatine is somehow assassinated during this battle, the Empire would collapse instantly into warlordism. That is how fragile their affairs are. Fortunately for them, they fear the old bastard far too much to openly defy him.
What about Darth Vader? I was always curious as what would have happened if Palpatine somehow how bit the dust and Vader was still alive.


The Covenant situation is more tense imo. There are two separate species rivalries in the Covenant. Grunts and Jackals, + Elites and Brutes, then you have the phrophets role in that rivalry.


btw we can you post the stuff from that new sw encyclopedia?

Gideon
What 'stuff'? You have to be slightly more specific.

As far as Darth Vader is concerned, he was universally loathed by most of the upper echelons of the Empire's service. Unlike Palpatine, who spent decades cultivating a cult of personality around him. The Empire literally could not last without Palpatine as the Emperor; he specifically designed the system so that any attempt to kill him would ultimately meet with failure. You saw what happened when Carnor Jax tampered with the Emperor's genetic material that ruined his clone supply; Jax was left with a pitifully small fragment of the Empire and was killed by a Palpatine-loyalist.

Without Palpatine, the Empire fragments. There is literally no one who could stop it.

Final Blaxican
Yeah... the Covenant would get the shit kicked out of them.

TheEskimo
Although the Vong by themselves would lose to the Empire I do not see it being a one sided conflict. Remember that although not as powerful as the Empire, the Chiss Defense Force had a surprisingly difficult time dealing with a small advance force of the Vong. So if you were to factor in the Covenant to this encounter I could very easily see the tide turning. Actually you would also need to factor in Onimi who could have possibly infiltrated the Empire and possibly killed Palpatine. Now I very well could be wrong but I do not see this being a walk in the park for either side.

Gideon
Onimi kill Palpatine? LOL.

Nom Anor knew for a fact that a united Empire would have "crushed utterly within the first encounter." Comparing the Chiss to the Empire might as well be comparing an anthill to a skyscraper.

TheEskimo
Originally posted by Gideon
Onimi kill Palpatine? LOL.

Nom Anor knew for a fact that a united Empire would have "crushed utterly within the first encounter." Comparing the Chiss to the Empire might as well be comparing an anthill to a skyscraper.

Well Onimi is a force sensitive shape shifter and correct me if I'm wrong but he is quite a bit more powerful than Shimmra is he not? And where did Anor say that? This is the first I have heard of that quote.

Elite Hunter
The quote is in "Traitor" when Anor is talking to Lah.

Edit, here it is:


"Jacen Solo is also the eldest son of the galaxy's leading clan. His mother was, for a time, the New Republic's Supreme Overlord..."

"For a time? How is this possible? Why would her successor let her live?"

"Does the warmaster truly wish a disquisition upon the New Republic's perverse system of government? It has to do with a bizarre concept called democracy, in which ruling power is given to whoever is most skillful at directing the herd instincts of the largest masses of their most ignorant citizens..."

"Their politics are your concern," Tsavong Lah growled. "Their fighting strength is mine."

"The two are, in this case, more closely related than the warmaster might suspect. For a quarter of a standard century, the Solo family has dominated galactic affairs of all kinds. Even the warmaster of the Jedi is none other than Jacen Solo's uncle. This uncle, Luke Skywalker, is popularly considered to have singlehandedly created the New Republic by defeating an older, much more rational government called the Empire. And, I might add, it is fortunate for us that he did; the Empire was vastly more organized, powerful, and potently militaristic. Lacking the internal divisions we have exploited so successfully in the New Republic, the Empire could have crushed our people utterly in their first encounter."

Tsavong Lah bristled. "The True Gods would never have allowed such a defeat!"

"Precisely my point," Nom Anor countered. "They didn't. Instead, Luke Skywalker, the Solos, and the Rebel Alliance destroyed the Empire, leaving the galaxy in a state of disarray, a power vacuum that we could exploit--for even then, the Solo clan served the True Gods without ever knowing it!"

For the first time, Tsavong Lah began to look interested.

"Now, imagine," Nom Anor said, scenting blood, "the effect on the morale of the remaining New Republic forces when this Jedi, this hero, this scion of the greatest clan of their entire civilization, announces to all his people that they have been deceived by their leaders: that the True Gods are the only gods... that the True Way is the only way!"




@Gideon I was wondering what the Encyclopedia says about Plaugeis other then he was "one of the most powerful sith in history" as you mentioned before.

TheEskimo
Hmm...very well then I concede my point. Although I did learn valuable information about the Empire through this.

Gideon
And Onimi would be annihilated by Palpatine.

Darth Truculent
Onimi would be more than annihilated Gideon - he would be the apitizer before the main course for Sidious/Palpatine. The ultimate Sith Lord vs The Covenant and YV? It wouldn't even be a serious fight. The Empire at it's height with both Sidious and Vader at the helm would overrun the invading forces in a matter of weeks.

Onimi and Shimrra even fighting side-by-side would be no match for Sidious. One blast of FL and both are pieces of toast - quite litterally. The Galactic Navy and Army would stop them and The Covenant and YV wouldn't advance.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Gideon
By the way, Lucien, the Empire held "dozens" of Super Star Destroyers if Han's comment about "command ships" in RotJ is to be taken as fact. Too arbitrary for my liking. Is there a statement somewhere in that new Star Wars Bible of yours about the amount of Executors circa RotJ?

Darth Truculent
Executors were large ships, expensive to build and took way to much resources.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Executors were large ships, expensive to build and took way to much resources. 19 km ships would be expensive and suck up a lot of resources............... now lets pan the camera to the 900 km ball of death.

Darth Truculent
A superior weapons platform against the YV and TC? We have to assume the 2nd DS was more advanced and didn't have the same flaws as the first. If it was completed, not a single worldship much less YV fleet would be able to advance against that much firepower. Did we forget to mention the Sun Crusher? No way YV and TC would advance against the galaxy. Sidious and Vader would say to the Rebellion "don't worry we got this - we got it covered. We'll deal with you in a few weeks."

Gideon
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Too arbitrary for my liking. Is there a statement somewhere in that new Star Wars Bible of yours about the amount of Executors circa RotJ?

Just that they were limited in number to other types of Star Destroyers. I don't see what the problem is. Simple logistics: the Empire is more than capable of producing dozens of Super Star Destroyers and Han's comment is proof of it.

Darth Truculent
Gideon, then why didn't The Empire stop building the Imperial class? Why not just build Executor's because they were superior than the Imperial class. Better shields, better armor, more firepower, more TIE fighters? Executor's took too much resources and were way too expensive to build. Sidious wasn't dumb - he understood economics because in order to maintain an empire, you have to keep track of what you can do and what you can't do.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Gideon
Just that they were limited in number to other types of Star Destroyers. I don't see what the problem is. Simple logistics: the Empire is more than capable of producing dozens of Super Star Destroyers and Han's comment is proof of it. You sure? I'm more inclined tot take Han's comment the same way we take his talk about taking "1000 ships with greater firepower" yada yada yada.

I've wondered though why the Empire, with all the galaxy under it, didn't produce hundreds--thousands of Executors. For that matter, 25,000 ISD's seems too small a number for millions of planets.

VinCon01
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that 25,000 comment in reference to the "standard" Imperial-I/II Class Star Destroyers? If that's the case, then they probably had quite a few of the other classes out there as well.

Though I have to admit that I haven't a clue why they wouldn't try to pump out more Executor-Class SSDs. The only excuse I can think of is that, since it was only in the process being produced for the first time shortly before the OT takes place, they might have wanted to see what were essentially prototypes in the field a few more times before going in to mass production. That, or they were cocky.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by VinCon01
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that 25,000 comment in reference to the "standard" Imperial-I/II Class Star Destroyers? If that's the case, then they probably had quite a few of the other classes out there as well.

Though I have to admit that I haven't a clue why they wouldn't try to pump out more Executor-Class SSDs. The only excuse I can think of is that, since it was only in the process being produced for the first time shortly before the OT takes place, they might have wanted to see what were essentially prototypes in the field a few more times before going in to mass production. That, or they were cocky. ISD=Imperator-class Star Destroyer a.k.a. "Imperial."

VinCon01
Gotcha. I don't exactly recall the context of the comment, so I wasn't sure if that was literally referring to a specific class, or if they were just using it as a general reference. Thanks for the clarification.

Lord Lucien
There were as of RotJ, 25,000 Imperators, I and II. That doesn't include Victory's or remaining Venator's or the Lancet-class frigates.

Darth Truculent
Han's comment about command ships is taken out of context. Flagships don't have to be large vessels. It may be a cruiser, frigate or a SD. I can't figure out why so many have to think, that a flagship has to be the meanest nastiest warship. The Chimmera wasn't an Executor - it was an Imperial class SD.

sigma-ct42
probably because of the time it would require to build a massive fleet of 19 km warships. just saying. with a galaxy containing billions of worlds i don't see resources being too big a problem.



correct me if i'm wrong. but wasn't that just the number stationed at endor?

TheEskimo
After learning just how powerful the Empire really is, it makes me wonder how the Rebels lasted as long as they did, let alone win the war.

Gideon
The RotJ script and novelization call for a film that isn't bound by minimalism; the novelization, at least, details that the Rebel fleet at Endor was larger than the visible spectrum. As is the case with other things (i.e. moving faster than the eye can see), there are simply some things that could not, cannot, and should not be presented into the movie. Han's comment was valid; he didn't see anything special about the Executor because there were "dozens" of ships of its class.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Gideon
The RotJ script and novelization call for a film that isn't bound by minimalism; the novelization, at least, details that the Rebel fleet at Endor was larger than the visible spectrum. As is the case with other things (i.e. moving faster than the eye can see), there are simply some things that could not, cannot, and should not be presented into the movie. Han's comment was valid; he didn't see anything special about the Executor because there were "dozens" of ships of its class. Calling it a command ship is a little strange though. Could he not have been referring to a ship in command?

Darth Truculent
Lucien raises a point - "ship in command." According to naval doctrine and this includes all navies, if the flagship is destroyed and the fleet admiral is killed, the senior captain in the battlefleet is the commanding officer. That's why he or she is named "flag captain."

The Executor was basically one big bullseye. Everyone knew at Endor that it was the fleet's command vessel. I would have chosen a less conspicous looking ISD instead. The Executor along with the DS would be the Rebels primary target. If only the Emperor allowed the fleet to attack the Rebel's and uterlly annihilate them, then Luke probably have been turned.

Gideon
Super Star Destroyers were commonly used as command vessels for the highest ranked officers in sector fleets, et cetera, Tangible. He looked at the Executor and was unimpressed, telling Luke that there were dozens of command ships. He wasn't referring to your generic ISD.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Gideon
Super Star Destroyers were commonly used as command vessels for the highest ranked officers in sector fleets, et cetera, Tangible. He looked at the Executor and was unimpressed, telling Luke that there were dozens of command ships. He wasn't referring to your generic ISD. I'll accept this gladly if I can have some proof of there being numerous ESD's around and proof that Han's nonchalant attitude wasn't a farce.

kotorfan
Originally posted by Gideon
And Onimi would be annihilated by Palpatine.

well yeah. if shitty Jacen (well not really shitty since he was pure lightside) annihilated Onimi...

Darth Truculent
Agreed Lucien. Any enemy ship is a serious threat to your vessel. And where is it stated that The Empire had numerous ESD at their disposal? If it does, please refer it to me.

Kotorfan, Onimi would be no match for Sidious/Palpatine - even if Onimi did fully develop his Force abilities, not one YV had ever faced a Sith Lord and a Sith would rip them to pieces.

Gideon
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'll accept this gladly if I can have some proof of there being numerous ESD's around and proof that Han's nonchalant attitude wasn't a farce.

Christ, you all are kidding me.

"The Super-class Star Destroyers were many times as powerful as its predecessors. Because they were built in limited numbers, these ships were used mainly as command vessels, guiding fleets and serving as headquarters from which to conduct planetary assaults and space battles." -- Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Gideon
Christ, you all are kidding me.

"The Super-class Star Destroyers were many times as powerful as its predecessors. Because they were built in limited numbers, these ships were used mainly as command vessels, guiding fleets and serving as headquarters from which to conduct planetary assaults and space battles." -- Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. Do you have numbers circa RotJ?

Gideon
No...

Lord Lucien
'Kay-p.

Gideon
Happy?

Lord Lucien
Fairly.

Darth Truculent
Then in battle, your primary target would be the ESD. Destroy that ship and the fleet loses coordination. Was the Chimmera a ESD? By the way Gideon, thanks for the info where I can get stats on The Empire's fleet.

Lord Lucien
Wookieepedia probably. And the Chimaera was an ISD, it was at Endor.

Ah, there we go. Wookieepedia offers references to other ESD's from 3-4 ABY. The passage: During the early years of the Galactic Civil War, several other Executor-class ships were built and fielded. A Rebel strike destroyed an Executor-class ship, upgraded with cloaking technology, while still under construction at Fondor in 3 ABY. Another Star Dreadnaught with cloaking capability, the Terror, was already operational by 3 ABY. The Vengeance lead a task force around this time. Towards the end of Palpatine's glory days in 4 ABY, other Executors were noted as well. The Guardian was tasked with protecting Coruscant, the Annihilator served in close vicinity to Kuat,, the Reaper led Scourge Squadron on its patrols in the Outer Rim Territories and the Brawl was given to Admiral Zsinj by Palpatine himself.

Final Blaxican
I wuld just like to note that the Tyranid would wipe out the entire Imperial, CIS, and Republic fleet by itself. no expression

Lord Lucien
Ad it is... what?

TheEskimo
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ad it is... what?

A nomadic alien race from Warhammer 40K, comprising many genetically engineered forms (see Tyranid genetics) created from harvested bio-mass.

Darth Truculent
That's why I don't like a ESD - overgunned and too ripe of a target. One big bullseye that draws the most fire. Thank's for the info on the Chimaera Lucien.

Lord Lucien
Wookieepedia is our friend. But I like ESD's because they're such a great target. They can defend themselves well enough to attract attention, allowing its escorting ships freer reign.

Final Blaxican
Originally posted by TheEskimo
A nomadic alien race from Warhammer 40K, comprising many genetically engineered forms (see Tyranid genetics) created from harvested bio-mass.

You totally wikipedia'd that. no expression

The Tyranid share similarities to the Vong in that everything they have is biotic, alive. They would win mainly because they have fleets that range in the upper billions (One grand fleet contains 3 and a half billion warships), and each fleet can double it's population in 2 and a half days. no expression

Lord Lucien
Wow, how boring.

Final Blaxican
It's ridiculous.

I love the Tryanid. smile

They got their asses kicked by the Imperium though. sad

Lord Lucien
Yay, go humans.

Final Blaxican
Humans always in the end,

People need to mix it up a little.

Lord Lucien
Yeah. Star Wars really should have ended with Vong wiping out the galaxy.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah. Star Wars really should have ended with Vong wiping out the galaxy.

Agreed.

TheEskimo
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
You totally wikipedia'd that. no expression

The Tyranid share similarities to the Vong in that everything they have is biotic, alive. They would win mainly because they have fleets that range in the upper billions (One grand fleet contains 3 and a half billion warships), and each fleet can double it's population in 2 and a half days. no expression

Yeah, but I decided to find out myself rather then wait for an answer.

Darth Truculent
But Lucien, an ESD has vulnerable areas like the standard ISD. The external shield generators and target those, you have a ship without shields. Perfect target for capital vessels to concentrate all fire on for a few minutes. Take a look at history - how the British sunk the Bismarck. The Bismarck was the ESD of it's day and it was sunk despite it's superior firepower. My question is, why not build an improved ESD with internal shield generators? Much better protection.

On to the Tryanid - why not use a WMD like Alpha Red or some other bio agent? That'll even the odds - you have to think what can cause the most maximum damage. Cept I don't think the Jedi or the GA would authorize the use of a WMD. Maybe the Chiss would, but not the GA after the debacle with Alpha Red and Zanoma Selkot.

Final Blaxican
Who's to say Alpha Red would even affect the Tyranid?

But it doesn't matter. Genestealers take the genetic code of any species they kill and add it to the Tyranid's branch of options and in a couple of days they can mass create an army of hybrids mixed up of Tyranid and whatever creature the Tyranid have fought. That being said, the Empire would have to concoct an agent that is lethal to hundreds of different types of species. And inevitably they're going to assimilate humans and any other species in the star wars galaxy ,meaning they'd have to change the formula so it affects human Tyranid and the like... meaning it'd be harmful to humans as well.

It's like trying to find a cure to a disease that's constantly mutating. It would take a lot of time, and it's time that the Empire wouldn't have when they're being attacked by a force that numbers in multiple billions.

Darth Truculent
Hmm - assimilate. That sounds like the Borg a little bit.

Unless The Empire develops a strain similar to Alpha Red, but constantly mutates and adapts to whatever is being used to counteract the virus. Sounds sinister yes, but Sidious/Palpatine would authorize it's use.

Final Blaxican
But how long would it take for the Empire to make such a thing? How long did it take for the GA to create it originally? The Empire doesn't have months.. they don't even have weeks.

Gideon
If there's one thing that LotF has shown us, it's that the Empire has an amazing talent for biological warfare. I refer you to the nanokillers they produced at the very end of the GA-Confederation war.

Final Blaxican
... that didn't answer my question. no expression

Can the Empire create quite possibly the most advanced and complicated biological weapon that they've ever created (considering the Tyranid can mutate a resistance to it) in a few days?

Gideon
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
... that didn't answer my question. no expression

Can the Empire create quite possibly the most advanced and complicated biological weapon that they've ever created (considering the Tyranid can mutate a resistance to it) in a few days?

Um. Yes.

Final Blaxican
I doubt it.

Gideon
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
I doubt it.

Well, you're black.

The Remnant had no trouble creating tons of nanovirus for specific genes and dropping it on Mandalore. The Empire at its height? Don't go down that road, dude.

Final Blaxican
B-but you ignored my post above. And how long it did it take to create those viruses? How long were they sitting in a freezer somewhere before someone had a use for them?

Unless you can provide proof that they were not even invented yet and the concept not even thought of, and then they just did it all in a couple of days, you don't have a case.

And even if you did, you'd have to explain how they could invent this, then mass-distribute it, then transport it across the thousands of planets across the galaxy that are under siege, then they'd have to augment it to be used in a vacuum (considering Tyranid don't need to breathe), then they'd have to re modify it every couple of days every time the Tyranid assimilated a new alien species into their gene pool, each time becoming harder and harder because as they share traits with the host gene the poison would then affect those who share that gene, meaning that as human tyranids are affected by it humans themselves would be susceptible, etc. etc. And every time they modified it they'd have to re mass distribute it etc.

And again... the Tyranid can double their forces in 2 and a half days... so day one they have 3 billion forces, you gas them, two and a half days there's a billion more with a resistance to the bio-weapon you just created, two and a half days later there's a billion more with a new resistance, and this is of course happening with only one fleet; there's multiple grand fleets in the Tyranid armada mind you which means that the Empire would basically have to create and distribute a poison for each type of life form in the galaxy, as the Tyranid have enough forces to assault multiple star systems and can thus assimilate multiple life forms into the gene pool... and the Empire would have to do all of this while keeping up with the Tyranid's incredible reproductive rates...

Gideon
Did I say that they could take this Tyranid thingy?

Final Blaxican
You did say that they could create a virus capable of defeating them or at least affecting them in a few days... which would be incorrect because you can't make a "one-size-fits-all" vaccine for something that mutates constantly, hence mankinds failure to defeat AIDS and the ever increasing danger of the common cold.

Gideon
No, I said that they could create the most complicated biological weapon they've ever created in a few days. I didn't say they could beat the Tyranid thingy.

Final Blaxican
But even on that note, on what are you basing the Empire being able to create "the most complicated biological weapon they've ever created" in a few days? They managed to make nano-machines, something they could have had worked out on paper for who knows how long before hand, some bioweapon they created at the end of a war, etc. If the Empire could create incredibly powerful technology that tops anything else they'd made prior they'd have more than just the five or six superweapons they've made over the years.

Gideon
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
But even on that note, on what are you basing the Empire being able to create "the most complicated biological weapon they've ever created" in a few days? They managed to make nano-machines, something they could have had worked out on paper for who knows how long before hand, some bioweapon they created at the end of a war, etc. If the Empire could create incredibly powerful technology that tops anything else they'd made prior they'd have more than just the five or six superweapons they've made over the years.

The Remnant wasn't involved in the GA-Confederation war until the end. And half of that was under Pellaeon's leadership; do you actually think the Moff Council would create a nanovirus to unleash upon their enemies with him in command?

Final Blaxican
And when did they start the actual research of this virus? Can you prove that it was only days before completion?

Gideon
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
And when did they start the actual research of this virus? Can you prove that it was only days before completion?

I'll pour through Invincible for the timeframe. Still, Blax, you've made a couple of really bad assumptions throughout this debate.

Final Blaxican
I'm sure I have. But in the end I've got all of my points on lock. You go do your fact checking.

Gideon
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
I'm sure I have. But in the end I've got all of my points on lock. You go do your fact checking.

I am.

And no, you don't. You claimed that I said the Empire could destroy the Tyranids. You were wrong. You also claimed that it took the entire war for the Remnant to develop the nanovirus. And you were wrong. No offense, it kinda irks me that you have the audacity to say "you have no case" when you're literally on your last leg.

Final Blaxican
Originally posted by Gideon
And no, you don't. You claimed that I said the Empire could destroy the Tyranids. You were wrong.

Except that's not a "point". And you misunderstood my enitre question anyway.



No I didn't. Learn to read. I said who knows how long they'd been researching it and thinking up the concept. You've yet to provide any light on the matter.



Right, right. Whatever. Again, go do your fact checking. I've debated with enough Antediluvian to only be bored by pseudo-intellectual badassery. Come back when you have something to say that actually relates to the topic at hand. I'm not some registered in '07-08 newblet who can be cowed by your bullshit. No offense, but I've been around much longer than that, Escape88.

Gideon
WTF, dude? Who is getting psuedobadass with you? I outright said "no offense" to pre-empt ill feelings on this.

Likewise, who are you to lecture on reading when you came out of nowhere putting words in my mouth and ignoring shit like "I mean no offense."

Pull your head out of your ass.

Final Blaxican
I didn't ignore your "no offense". Take note of the fact that I probably would have responded in a much more aggressive way had you not posted a "no offense". And if you'd notice, I said no offense as well. Just because I didn't put it at the beginning of my statement doesn't mean it's just there for fluff. I don't have any ill-will toward you, sorry if that's how my post made you feel. I love you.

I've yet to put any words in your mouth. I've only replied to the message you yourself have put out. Calm down.

Fan Skywalker
Blaxican you mentioned that the Humans beat the Tyranids, how did this happen?

Gideon
Edit. Dealt with.

Fan Skywalker
Originally posted by Gideon
Edit. Dealt with.
me?

Gideon
Nope.

Final Blaxican

Red Nemesis
Like Ender's Game...



NOT like Ender's Game. At all.


Executor much? (I hope... what was the final number on that?)



How much better than Stormtroopers are these 'space marines'?

Final Blaxican
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Like Ender's Game...

I thought the EXACT same thing. laughing out loud




I don't know how long they are exactly.




I would say much more. One squad of 4 space marines is supposedly equal to about 10 or 20 Tyranid... their armor allows them to survive being tossed 50 feet into the air and can survive being knocked off cliffs... they can survive shots from tanks... they can tank shots from their own weapons, bolters. In the 40K universe, instead of using regular machine guns and the like they use bolter rifles. A bolter rifle is a missle launcher, but it's an automatic weapon that has a high firing rate. So in affect it's a machine gun that fires missles instead of bullets, but at the same high RoF. no expression

In addition to that space marine armor is designed to allow them to fight demons who use hellfire and magical attacks and the like. So I can't say for sure.

The thing that you have to keep in mind about Warhammer is that it's not "realistic", I mean it doesn't even try to be, pretend to be, not even within it's own universe. Some of the machniations are so ridiculous and deliberatly over-the-top that it's just goofy.

The Space Orks, don't know how to properly create weapons. None of their weapons actually work. If you were to take an Ork rifle and pull the trigger nothing would happen because it's a broken peice of scrap metal, but if an Ork takes the same rifle and pulls the trigger it will fire just fine. Space Orks don't know how to pilot space ships and don't know how to build space ships but they have the largest population out of any other in the galaxy and have colonised thousands of worlds ... It's not designed to make any sense. no expression

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
But Lucien, an ESD has vulnerable areas like the standard ISD. The external shield generators and target those, you have a ship without shields. Perfect target for capital vessels to concentrate all fire on for a few minutes. Take a look at history - how the British sunk the Bismarck. The Bismarck was the ESD of it's day and it was sunk despite it's superior firepower. My question is, why not build an improved ESD with internal shield generators? Much better protection. Um... okay, and what if we build Star Destroyers out of Vibranium?

My point was that the ESD provides such a great target to enemy ships that the ESD's escorting ISD's will have an easier time of attacking the distracted enemy. Not to mention the ESD will dish out a handful before it gets destroyed (or not).

And I swear I read somewhere that the bridge domes weren't shield generators but communication towers---it's destruction making it clear that the bridge shield was down. Something about a scene in between the dome blowing up and the Imp. officer's remark was taken out... or something.

Darth Truculent
I see. Thanks for the info Lucien. On to the Tryanids:

About bio weaponry in the SW universe. The Chiss and The Remnant used bio weapons against the Killiks rights and it basically killed on contact. Now, The Remnant and the Tyranids are fighting for a major piece of real estate that controls hyperlanes, trade routes or a vital base. Introduce a strain of something similar that killed on contact then the Tyranids got a problem. Or, introduce a virus that remains dormant for a few days and is spread throughout their forces. Suddenly hundreds of thousands if not millions of Tyranids begin dying. The war is now a whole new ballgame.

Lord Lucien
In theory. My brief skimming over of the the Tyranid in Wikipedia mentioned that they have a extremely rapid rate of evolution as a result of their assimilation of so many different strains of biomass. And virus a SW faction comes up with be a last ditch effort and if they didn't somehow manage to account for that sudden change in their biological make-up, then SW dies.

Darth Truculent
Say Sidious/Papatine develop a strain the mutates to include the Tyranids evolution would destroy them . . . in theory. A coventional war is out of the question because even the Sith Lord would know that he couldn't replace the losses fast enough. A DS or a SC wouldn't do the trick because there are only just one of each. The only solution is a bio weapon.

Lord Lucien
Given the Tyranid ability to so quickly consume their enemies and replenish their numbers, a bioweapon may not even be enough. And then there's always the wonderful problem of actually creating the disease.

Final Blaxican
A friend and I spent a class period trying to think of ways the Empire could survive a Tyranid attack, and to be honest the only feasible plan we could think of is mass-evacuating (which would be impossible obviously) lost Imperial planets, then glassing them with a fleet. Tyranid transform all of a planets natural raw materials (crust and the ocean and plants and the atmosphere) into a food source that they use to survive... and they become weaker the longer they go without eating.

So, by destroying all of the planets that they lose the Imperials could score a victory by simply starving the Tyranid to death, or at least into such a weakened state that one or two all-or-nothing blitz's of Imperial forces wipe them out before they can create new generations of fighters.

Fan Skywalker
Have the Tyranid realized FTL travel?

Final Blaxican
Yes.

Darth Truculent
Blaxian are you talking about a scorched earth policy?

Lord Lucien
Essentially yes. But more of a scorched galaxy policy.

Darth Truculent
That would work, but there are so many systems in the galaxy that it would be difficult to leave a scorched galaxy. I think a better action would be a Stalingrad type battle on a planet.

Publius II
Don't take things so literally.

Darth Truculent
Kinda hard when you wargame too much.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
That would work, but there are so many systems in the galaxy that it would be difficult to leave a scorched galaxy. I think a better action would be a Stalingrad type battle on a planet. Against an enemy that would simply consume Stalingrad?

Darth Truculent
Lucien, inflict so many casaulties that the enemy wouldn't want to take that system anymore. As soon as the amount runs up into the hundreds of thousands then into millions, I think any government would cease their offensive operations.

Final Blaxican
Considering that, in the course of two days, the Tyranid fleet would go from 2.5 to 5 BILLION soldiers...

No.

Darth Truculent
I'll throw this at you. What if Palpatine and Vader had the SF at their disposal?

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I'll throw this at you. What if Palpatine and Vader had the SF at their disposal?

Then they could use outdated, obsolete technology to slightly curb the disparity between production capabilities of the two organizations. It wouldn't really make much difference though.

Final Blaxican
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I'll throw this at you. What if Palpatine and Vader had the SF at their disposal?

Unless the Starforge can output billions of ships in two days, which it can't, and unless the Empire has billions of pilots just laying around to fly those ships, which it doesn't, it won't matter.

Darth Truculent
Clones or AI.

Final Blaxican
It took twenty years for them to make a few million clones. no expression

Darth Truculent
So the Tyranid would be able to defeat the Sith? I'm not so sure about that, but stranger things have happened.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
So the Tyranid would be able to defeat the Sith? I'm not so sure about that, but stranger things have happened. Seriously, the Force only goes so far. Billions and billions of units in days. DAYS! Made out of consumed planets. No one in Star Wars in standing against them.

Final Blaxican
With ease, yeah.

The Empire has she strongest fleet in galactic history. There is no fleet in Star wars history that has ever been stronger than the Empire. Thus, if the Imperials can't defeat the Tyranid then no other force can.

Darth Truculent
A theory - what if another character comes along like Revan who is able to easily turn Jedi to the darkside and use them for his will and use them in the war?

Final Blaxican
Um... how will that help turn the tide against a force containing billions of beings?

Darth Truculent
Just thinking - mass Thought Bombs across the galaxy at key systems in the galaxy.

Publius II
Would do jack shit.

Cpt. Valerian
Because, the Vong are immune to the Force, in case you did not know.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Just thinking - mass Thought Bombs across the galaxy at key systems in the galaxy. Why don't they just build a Halo array?

Gideon
Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Because, the Vong are immune to the Force, in case you did not know.

This is a misconception. The Vong could not be sensed in the Force by the Jedi; most of the metaphysical attacks -- telekinesis, Force lightning, ect. -- worked on them just fine.

By the way. here's some new information about the Remnant's nanokiller courtesy of Invincible: it took the Remnant less than a day to develop one for Tenel Ka and Allana (and the Hapan family). They were able to manufacture tons of it and instructed the Galactic Alliance to dump it on Mandalore; the entire planet was infected and is lethal to the entire Fett family.

Best advantages of the nanokiller: according to Moff Lecerson, it doesn't have to be tailor made to one specific set of genes -- the nanokiller for the Hapan family was derived from samples taken from the imprisoned Prince Isolder (Tenel Ka's father) and it would work just as lethally on the rest of his family, despite the fact that their genetic structure isn't identical. Lastly, as long as the nanokiller is exposed to sunlight every few days, "it can last forever."

Publius II
Originally posted by Gideon
This is a misconception. The Vong could not be sensed in the Force by the Jedi; most of the metaphysical attacks -- telekinesis, Force lightning, ect. -- worked on them just fine. In Traitor, Jacen Solo's lightning bent away from the Vong targeted, and his telekinesis only battered them with rocks and debris, not the Force itself. I only recall one instance in which the Force was applied directly against the Vong, and that was Luke's technique.

Gideon
Jaina torched the holy **** out of the Vong with Force lightning, IIRC.

Publius II
Is there any other such instance?

Gideon
Originally posted by Publius II
Is there any other such instance?

I dunno. But it happened in extreme rage/grief upon learning of Anakin's death.

Publius II
Weird.

Cpt. Valerian
Originally posted by Gideon
This is a misconception. The Vong could not be sensed in the Force by the Jedi; most of the metaphysical attacks -- telekinesis, Force lightning, ect. -- worked on them just fine.

True, true. Honestly, I don't know much about the Vong. But I remember reading somewhere they were immune to the Force, somehow. I probably misinterpreted the meaning.

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