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Location where Vader and Luke fought.

Vader stated that Luke skills were completed. Luke was able to defeat Vader in saber combat who is 80% of ROTJ Sidious a more powerful version of Sidious. Luke also was able to take Sidious force lighting long enough for Vader to betray Sidious.

I say Luke and Vader takes this.

I'll second that. However one point, I hear so often Vader is 80% of Sidious ect ect, but thats his potential force power or realized force power it dosn't mean he inherently wins the fight based on that.

But I do think Luke + Vader would have it, although Vader would most likely get gravely wounded if not killed

Originally posted by Kotor3
Location where Vader and Luke fought.

Vader stated that Luke skills were completed. Luke was able to defeat Vader in saber combat who is 80% of ROTJ Sidious a more powerful version of Sidious. Luke also was able to take Sidious force lighting long enough for Vader to betray Sidious.

I say Luke and Vader takes this.

Wrong, Luke was able to defeat Vader in saber combat by using his anger (which he did in the first half of the duel as well) Vader did not want to kill Luke. The reason that Luke was able to take a lot of Sidious's force lightning is because Sidious wanted Luke to suffer before death since he rejected the dark side.

Just because Vader says doesn't make it true, Luke had barely any training, his skill were not complete.

Sidious takes them both due to his superior...well everything.

That's terrible logic. Dooku's rage wasn't the reason he defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin on Geonosis; his superior swordsmanship was. On the other hand, it is documented via novelization, dialogue, or screenplay that Luke's victory over Vader wasn't through superior skill or talent but by capitalizing on the advantages provided by aggressive feelings. It's really simple. Likewise, Sidious was visibly not trying to murder Skywalker on-screen. He was torturing him and, yes, death would have been the end result.

Sidious is far more powerful, faster, and more experienced in swordsmanship and Force mastery than either of his opponents. He takes this.

Originally posted by Gideon
That's terrible logic. Dooku's rage wasn't the reason he defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin on Geonosis; his superior swordsmanship was.

Gideon I am confused by your statement above. Who stated that because I did not?

Originally posted by Gideon
On the other hand, it is documented via novelization, dialogue, or screenplay that Luke's victory over Vader wasn't through superior skill or talent but by capitalizing on the advantages provided by aggressive feelings. It's really simple.

No one disagrees with fact that Luke defeated Vader using his aggressive feelings. The same way Anakin defeated Dooku. The point is Luke won.

Originally posted by Gideon
Likewise, Sidious was visibly not trying to murder Skywalker on-screen. He was torturing him and, yes, death would have been the end result.

I already agreed that initially Sidious was torturing Luke. I also provided the quote by Sidious which shows that Sidious was now ready to kill Skywalker and had finish with the torture.

Originally posted by Gideon
Sidious is far more powerful, faster, and more experienced in swordsmanship and Force mastery than either of his opponents. He takes this.

The most skilled, powerful, and experienced do not always win. Yes it gives a great advantage but does not produce an automatic win for Sidious.

Originally posted by Gideon
That's terrible logic. Dooku's rage wasn't the reason he defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin on Geonosis; his superior swordsmanship was.I don't think he said otherwise.

He isn't far more powerful than Vader, not as of Revenge of the Sith.

Originally posted by Kotor3
No one disagrees with fact that Luke defeated Vader using his aggressive feelings. The same way Anakin defeated Dooku. The point is Luke won. He won through aggression, but your assuming the exact same thing will happen again.


Originally posted by Kotor3
The most skilled, powerful, and experienced do not always win. Yes it gives a great advantage but does not produce an automatic win for Sidious. Not always, but usually. Again, don't assume that just because it lies within the realm of the possible that the least likely thing is what will happen. Using "maybes" and "perhaps" doesn't work. In an unadulterated combat scenario, Sidious will win.

...

Are you kidding me? "Teh most powrful du note alwayz win." Well let me be the first to thank you for letting loose this nugget of information. You'd think I would have gotten that from the numerous battles throughout the saga -- from the lightsaber duels to the whole tiny-rebellion-versus-Galactic-Empire civil war that engulfs the plot. I guess it must have slipped into some neurological wormhole present within the very fabric of my brain.

Now, as a token of my appreciation, I'll share a nugget of knowledge with you. Welcome to the Star Wars Versus Forum. Here, the combat mentioned in the threads here are purely hypothetical, with various settings and circumstances. In order to account for all of them, we go by simple logic: we argue whomever is more powerful and/or more skilled, and traditionally, that person wins. Exceptions are made in cases such as Mace Windu, who, say, is not more powerful than the likes of Darth Sidious, but due to special circumstances and attributes (Vaapad and the shatterpoint charism) is able to compensate for his inferiority.

In this thread, we have two combatants who aren't a productive or time-tested theme. One of them is a relatively untrained neophyte who is only remotely effective against a powerful adversary when he is a.) possessed by the spirit of a dead mentor, b.) filled with an overpowering aggressive emotion, or c.) the opponent is restraining himself. The second is a mighty Sith Lord who possesses a glaring physical and psychological vulnerability against the third combatant, a being who is far more powerful, far more experienced, far more skilled, and far smarter than either of the first two combatants. Simple logic: on the average day, he'd win.

Sidious > Vader and Luke. He wins this match. Your argument blows.

Not that I disagree, but Vader's by all available evidence the far superior technical swordsman. He's directly stated to employ individual elements from all forms of combat in his very own custom fighting style, and as such is arguably the most versatile and complete swordsman in the mythos.

Also, and not to be nitpicky or anything, but is there a particular reason you repeatedly refer to Mace's Shatterpoint ability as a "charism?" Because it's not God-Given, and neither is it unique to Mr Windu.

But its is something of an influence on what's going on around him, and the God-given characteristic is an analogy considering the rarity of and god-like nature of the ability.

Originally posted by Darth Luna
Not that I disagree, but Vader's by all available evidence the far superior technical swordsman. He's directly stated to employ individual elements from all forms of combat in his very own custom fighting style, and as such is arguably the most versatile and complete swordsman in the mythos. But not the most able.

When one feels inclined to nitpick, one should feel obligated to at least be right. A 'charism' (to quote the dictionary) can be defined as one of three things:

1. Theology. A divinely conferred gift or power.
2. a spiritual power or personal quality that gives an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people.
3. the special virtue of an office, function, position, etc., that confers or is thought to confer on the person holding it an unusual ability for leadership, worthiness of veneration, or the like.

The shatterpoint charism can be identified as either of the first two definitions. Nowhere is it stated to be something exclusive to one person.

By the way, not to be nitpicky or anything, but is there a particular reason why you repeatedly (and illegally) double post? Or why you capitalize the 'S' in shatterpoint? If you're referring to the novel, italicize it. And, lastly, there is a period at the end of 'Mr.' It is an abbreviation.

Edit: 'Charism' is also defined as a miraculously given power. Nowhere is Jehova or God Almighty or however else you want to style Him mentioned.

QUOTE=11486508]Originally posted by Gideon
...Are you kidding me? "Teh most powrful du note alwayz win."

That is such a ridiculous untrue statement and it pretty much sums up your argument. I am not surprise since in a previous thread you stated that DE Sidious would take out four of the top Jedi in the PT era. There are two many examples to prove that statement wrong.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Originally posted by Gideon
...Are you kidding me? "Teh most powrful du note alwayz win."

That is such a ridiculous untrue statement and it pretty much sums up your argument. I am not surprise since in a previous thread you stated that DE Sidious would take out four of the top Jedi in the PT era. There are two many examples to prove that statement wrong.

Right. Did you even read the rest of the post? The rest of the thread? Your argument has no merit to it. None. Zilch. Zero. You lose.

I still maintain Luke and Vader would overcome sidious, I do not believe you can compare ROTJ Sidious to ROTS Sidious in terms of power, his body has been getting owned by he dark side for some time. Again, I think Vader would likely be grievously wounded, but together I seriously doubt Sidious could take them both on in a ROTJ context.

Some points,

Sidiou swas deifnitley torturing luke that was very obvious

Howev, in the book (I believe?) Luke was able to somewhat block or minimize the effects of the lightening with his hands initially, something only Yoda has ever done (i could be wrong this is what I recall however) this alone should point obviously to how epic Luke is. Also Luke was holding back against Vader for almost the whole duel and Vader was not holding back against Luke after he got knocked down the stairs (then Vader got pissed) Vader wanted a strong Luke, but not stronger than him (at least not obviously).

Vader could even attempt to choke (and he is the established choker master) to distract Sidious from his lightening to protect himself-while Sidious certainly would protect himself these precious moments at the very least would enable Luke to seriously injure Sidious off the bat. From there I believe it would be a natural progression.

Honestly I don't know you can rep for Sidious in this situation. Not ROTJ Sidious, his powers aren't so physical at that point.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He won through aggression, but your assuming the exact same thing will happen again.

There is no reason to believe that Luke would not use aggression against Sidious.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Not always, but usually. Again, don't assume that just because it lies within the realm of the possible that the least likely thing is what will happen. Using "maybes" and "perhaps" doesn't work. In an unadulterated combat scenario, Sidious will win.

That is the point Lucien, not always and the usually applies to one on one situations in which this is not one of them. The point of my argument was to show that Luke would be enough of a factor for Vader and him to defeat Sidious. If Luke is not a factor then the fight would most likely go to Sidious.

Sidious, like Yoda or any other Force user who is physically weak, can compensate for his deficits with the Force. And he had only grown even more powerful in his two decades of ruling the galaxy.

Again, Sidious wins.

Originally posted by Gideon
When one feels inclined to nitpick, one should feel obligated to at least be right. A 'charism' (to quote the dictionary) can be defined as one of three things:

Don't you mean to say "a" dictionary? There is not one universally correct dictionary, and as such the use of the definite article "the" was completely misplaced.



Divine. Emanating from God. While that's just one definition, it's the most appropriate one, and none of the others listed from the many dictionaries of the World would relate to Mr Windu's Force given power.



Last time I checked, it wasn't Mr Windu's Shatterpoint ability that granted him such influence and authority.



Entirely irrelevant, as you yourself note.



Which is exactly what I'd expect to hear from someone who apparently believes Google Definition to be the only existing dictionary. There are multiple definitions that describe it as a unique ability.



Because, as ever, I am the biggest gangstar on the intrawebs. By the way, is there a particular reason you chose to use the word "illegally" in a situation of such a trivial nature? If it was an attempt to appear clever, you failed miserably.



Yes, I was referring to the novel, which is why I labelled it an "ability." And as Mr Windu notes in Shatterpoint, "Shatterpoint" is the name he personally gives his ability. Not a universally recognised word, but the name he personally gives it. As a name, it would be grammatically incorrect to not capitalise the "S." Really, basic stuff.



An abbreviation universally recognised that the period is quite unnecessary and not at all required from a grammatical point of view.



Which Mr Windu's Shatterpoint ability clearly isn't. It's something he naturally receives through his connection to the Force granted by the midi-chlorians in his blood.



Except through the words "theology," "divinely," and "spiritually." Perhaps you should have inputted those words in your little wiktionary.

"That's just one definition." Thank you.

That was to point out that a divine being is clearly being referenced in the definitions that you provided. As i said, all of the other definitions don't apply either.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

He meant the dictionary. In this case it was being used as an abstract concept- as it often is in interpersonal communication. As neither of you is a linguist, any dictionary counts as a higher authority (or at least one that is correct) that can stand in for the concept of the dictionary. I understand that abstract thought can be tough for those under 13, but try to keep up, won't you?

Except for the fact that there is nothing conceptual about the dictionary, and as such it cannot be used in that manner. Try again Red Noobesis.



Mace's power is instinctive, innate. It is like a gift from the Force.

Except you're taking the completely literal meaning of "gift" when Mr Windu is quite clearly speaking metaphorically. Much like when Gideon makes references to my "gifted mind" (his words). Notice how he doesn't follow it up with the word "charism." It's Mr Windu's gift in the sense that he was "gifted" with the natural talent in the Force that allows him such an amazing level of ability with the technique. It wasn't literally given to him.



Reading the entire debate would be nice. Gideon was the one who brought up that definition, and he later claims that it applies. It does not. I was explaining that.



Which is why I labelled it irrelevant.



Which has everything to do with his natural talent with the ability, which at its core stems from simple biology. His midi-chlorian count determines just exactly what kind of connection to the Force he possesses, which is what allows him such affinity with the ability. There's absolutely nothing divine or supernatural about it. He wasn't given it in a literal sense, he was biologically born with it.





Whom is boog?



You completely mixed up the two terms. The shatterpoints in that case would be the universally recognised word, as in the "spots where a precise application of carefully measured force- no more than a gentle tap- will break it into pieces." Mr Windu's Shatterpoint ability, what allows him to detect these shatterpoint, possesses an entirely different meaning.



No, it implies that through means of their own ("years of study, an intimate understanding of crystal structure, and rigorous practice to train the hand", they too can detect the shatterpoints he speaks of. Again, completely different meaning to the actual ability to detect weaknesses with the Force. You're committing a Fallacy of Equivocation.



Which would be because you can't distinguish between the two different meanings.



No, it is

not! The period is only absolutely necessary when the abbreviation isn't universally recognised. Know what you are talking about, fool.



There is no "might" about it. It's a Force ability that allows the detection of weak spots, named after the vulnerable spots within a crystalline matrix.



Mace possesses a unique affinity with the ability, which is what enables him to instinctively use it (much like Cade and his own personal ability). It's his own unique connection to the Force that grants him such affinity with the technique. It wasn't gifted to him directly by the Force with purpose or intention, and as such the use of the word "charism" is completely misplaced.



He mentions that he could personally sense that other Jedi around him were capable of the same, just not to the same degree he was. Whether they learnt it or it came naturally to them is something Mr Windu never elaborates on.



Context is nice sometimes? Explain. That made absolutely no sense to what you were responding to.



Whut?! Where the hell did you get that idea from? Nowhere in canon has the existence of a divine being been established.



His affinity with the technique, which is granted to him by his specific connection to the Force. Try again fool.

Also, weren't you were going to respond to this thread here?

killermovies.kom/forums/f86/t500444.html

Chop Chop.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Nowhere that I know of especially not the movie does it show Vader holding back. It does so in one of the expanded EU novels.
Originally posted by Kotor3

Further, not having your heart into a battle is not the same as an unwillingness to kill. Vader twice mention to Luke that he would kill him if that was his destiny. He also went to strike Luke down when Luke disable his saber. Vader also threw his saber directly at Luke in an effort to kill him. Vader was willing to kill Luke. You seem to forget that Luke was trying to bring Vader back to the light side and it was never his intention to kill Vader. That also shows what Luke did as extraordinary.




And how was vader going all out when that battle was crap compared to the vader vs galen duel in TFU which was incredibly epic slamming one another into walls and then seizing telekinetic storms at one another?

Once again luke mentions how his father was holding back against him in one of the EU novels.

Really mr kotor man, if vader was intending to kill luke, why couldn't he simply replicate what he did in TFU, which was to own him via the force?

Originally posted by Kotor3
If you are going to address an argument how about you read the person statement you are addressing. I and others have already addressed your statements. Give me proof that Vader was holding back through the entire battle. \

I will give you proof: "And there was a further matter. In his battles with Darth Vader and the Emperor, Luke felt he had never truly tested his powers to the limits. Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive. Yet Luke had no illusions that Gethzerion would be so lenient."

Nice job, Nemesis. It's always been enjoyable demolishing Nebaris in a logical arena; it's almost as fun to see him get crushed in a grammatical one as well.

Kotor3, Vader did hold back on Luke. He was not going all out; he was mentally conflicted. He did say Luke would die if it was his destiny, but he did not truly believe that, or he would not have killed Palpatine.

Originally posted by DorianYates
Wow, you are an idiot, STILL arguing even when concrete proof has been slammed into your face, so hard that it literally disfigures your already ugly face.

I think its time for you to wave the white flag, shut up and gtfo.You're definitely going to get banned again at this rate. Calm down.

And the novelization supports the idea that Luke, in his "moment of dark clarity," was indeed overpowering and "humiliat" Vader in their duel. That said - this is for you, kotor3 - Vader was not doing everything he could to kill his son. That doesn't necessarily mean that he was throwing the fight, but had he brought his vastly superior power in the Force to bear with the intent to kill he would have crushed Luke. It's almost an exact parallel to Vader's own duel with Count Dooku in RotS; the older combatant should have won through use of his Force abilities, but ended up being overpowered when the younger combatant with greater reserves of power surrendered to his rage.

SIDIOUS 66 I agree with your statement. Please read my initial post, DarkSideisMeth post and Publius II.

Publius II I used the same examples that you stated in my initial post. I have stated and agree that Vader initially was trying to make Luke angry. The point as you stated is that the fight was not a give away by Vader. Thus I believe Luke is enough of a factor to give him and Vader enough of a chance to win against ROTS Sidious.

Here is another topic for discussion. Can ROTS Sidious simply force choke Luke? Luke was able to muster enough force power to overpower Vader. If Sidious can do so, can he do it before Vader is able to kill him or simply break the force choke? I believe it would come down to a saber battle.

Originally posted by BOOG II
Except for the fact that there is nothing conceptual about the dictionary, and as such it cannot be used in that manner. Try again Red Noobesis.
Noobesis? Was that supposed to be clever?

The concept of a storehouse of all words (including the correct spellings and currently accepted definitions) is the basis for the expression 'The Dictionary.' This storehouse obviously does not exist in real life- we are dealing with the a priori concept of a dictionary. That we do not use an abstract concept to correct each other shows that you are either
a). being spitefully pedantic
-or-
b). woefully incapable of even the most simple abstract thought.
If it is option 'A' then you are a jerk (and therefore not worth my time) and if it is option 'B' then you are an idiot (and therefore not worth my time).


Originally posted by BOOG II



Except you're taking the completely literal meaning of "gift" when Mr Windu is quite clearly speaking metaphorically. Much like when Gideon makes references to my "gifted mind" (his words). Notice how he doesn't follow it up with the word "charism." It's Mr Windu's gift in the sense that he was "gifted" with the natural talent in the Force that allows him such an amazing level of ability with the technique. It wasn't literally given to him.
No. Your "gifted mind" (Gideon are you sure?) is a result of heritable traits' interaction and the upbringing you received. There is no reason to believe that it was a gift from your imaginary friend. Mace Windu has an uncommon ability that stems from his relationship with the Creator/Higher Power of Star Wars. His 'gift' is neither heritable (none of the other natives of Harrun Kal- even the Force sensitive ones- are noted to have this ability) nor learned (he was never trained to know shatterpoint). The best, most elegant explanation is that the ability is a gift, a charism that stems from the Force. Although it is a mystical energy field, it is personified throughout the series- all the talk about 'the will of the Force' isn't just pseudo-philosophical fluff. It is an integral part of our understanding of the SW universe.


Originally posted by BOOG II

Reading the entire debate would be nice. Gideon was the one who brought up that definition, and he later claims that it applies. It does not. I was explaining that.
It could apply. Not only did it help Mace achieve the influence over Galactic affairs that he wields during the Clone Wars, it allows him influence and control over individuals- he can find the weak spot in one's psyche or character. As he says in Shatterpoint: "I can see where you break." So we have a power that grants influence on both the galactic and personal scale. This power was bestowed by divine fiat. Sounds like a textbook definition of 'charism' to me.

Originally posted by BOOG II

Which is why I labelled it irrelevant.
So we all agree that this definition is not applicable. Why are you still talking about it?

Originally posted by BOOG II

Which has everything to do with his natural talent with the ability, which at its core stems from simple biology. His midi-chlorian count determines just exactly what kind of connection to the Force he possesses, which is what allows him such affinity with the ability. There's absolutely nothing divine or supernatural about it. He wasn't given it in a literal sense, he was biologically born with it.
No. If it was just a matter of midichlorians then someone else during the fifty thousand year history of Star Wars would have been born with the same exact MC count and therefore had the same power. We know of no such individual- making Windu unique. Logic dictates, then, that his skill with the shatterpoint technique arises from some other factor. The best explanation for his instinctive grasp of this skill is that it was a gift from the force. We have no reason to suggest that it was hereditary (the narrator never suggests that his parents/family know the technique) and it is confirmed that he was not trained in the technique.

In case that block of text wasn't enough:
MACE HAS THE SHATTERPOINT CHARISM ONLY BECAUSE OF THE FORCE'S INTERVENTION.

Originally posted by BOOG II

Whom is boog?
You know who BOOG is. Even if you don't recognize the name, his thread is on the front page of the Lit/EU forum. Use your eyes.

Also: Your credentials are slipping further into doubt; you have misused the objective case of the word 'who.' Copy/pasting from Merriam-Webster's dictionary:
used as object of a verb or a preceding preposition or less frequently as the object of a following preposition.
Neither of those usages applies to this situation. You should quit now. To borrow Darth Sexy's phrase: "You are embarrassing yourself."

Originally posted by BOOG II

You completely mixed up the two terms. The shatterpoints in that case would be the universally recognised word, as in the "spots where a precise application of carefully measured force- no more than a gentle tap- will break it into pieces." Mr Windu's Shatterpoint ability, what allows him to detect these shatterpoint, possesses an entirely different meaning.
As far as I could tell, the word 'shatterpoint' was never capitalized. If you have an example of the word 'shatterpoint' ever being used to describe Mace's ability please give us the page number. I have the book right here so I can post any page you would like me to.

Note: The case of 'shatterpoint' as a proper noun must take place away from the beginning of a sentence so that we can accurately determine what the cause of capitalization was.


Originally posted by BOOG II

No, it implies that through means of their own ("years of study, an intimate understanding of crystal structure, and rigorous practice to train the hand", they too can detect the shatterpoints he speaks of. Again, completely different meaning to the actual ability to detect weaknesses with the Force. You're committing a Fallacy of Equivocation.
With years of study someone without the Force can learn the technique. Someone with the Force (Luke, Jaina... apparently Caedus) can learn the technique in a reasonable amount of time. The technique is not always innate. What makes Mace's gift special is that his is innate. If Gideon was to call Jaina's shatterpoint ability a 'charism' he would be mistaken. I do not believe that he has ever done so, and I trust that no one else has either. The fact remains: Mace's shatterpoint gift is a charism and your quibbling over terminology won't change the fact that Mace's ability was god-given (or at least Force given) and his method of mastering the technique was unique.

Originally posted by BOOG II



Which would be because you can't distinguish between the two different meanings.

There are two explanations for that: either 'shatterpoint' is only ever used as a noun referring to the shatterpoints found in objects or people
-or-
When shatterpoint is used to refer to Mace's particular ability it is indistinguishable from its alternate form.

If it is the former then you will have to give up, and if it is the latter then you will have to explain this:



Either it isn't there (and you are making shit up) or it isn't there (and you are simply wrong). Take your pick.

Originally posted by BOOG II

No, it is

not! The period is only absolutely necessary when the abbreviation isn't universally recognised. Know what you are talking about, fool.
Watch who you call a fool. Jerk.

The only honorific that I could find that does not receive a period was 'Miss', mostly because it is not an abbreviation. In fact, the only rationale that I could find for excluding the period was that (and this is only in the UK/France) the 'Mr' is considered to be a contraction of the word 'Mister.' As you called it an abbreviation I'm sure that can't be your excuse. So not only are you wrong, you are even wrong in Europe. (To be wrong on two continents is serious business indeed.

Originally posted by BOOG II

There is no "might" about it. It's a Force ability that allows the detection of weak spots, named after the vulnerable spots within a crystalline matrix.
It is obviously not only a force ability since non-Force sensitives can learn it. As Mace uses it, yes, it is a Force ability. It does not rise solely out of his ability to use the Force though, or else all Jedi could do it instinctively and it wouldn't be worth talking about.


Originally posted by BOOG II




He mentions that he could personally sense that other Jedi around him were capable of the same, just not to the same degree he was. Whether they learnt it or it came naturally to them is something Mr Windu never elaborates on.
The other Jedi had not received the ability as an innate understanding of the world. His instinctive use of the technique is the only relevant point here.


Originally posted by BOOG II

Context is nice sometimes? Explain. That made absolutely no sense to what you were responding to.
You said, basically, "ITS NOT FROM TEH GODZ" in response to Gideon's assertion about the gift from the divine. I was pointing out that in Star Wars there really is a divine spirit and that the power did come from that source. (The Force)

Originally posted by BOOG II


Whut?! Where the hell did you get that idea from? Nowhere in canon has the existence of a divine being been established.
The Force.

Also: You misspelled 'What' in the above segment of your post. I'm sure that your use of 'u' instead of the correct letter 'a' was an accidental keystroke. Even you aren't so ignorant as to be unaware as to the correct spelling of as simple a word as 'what.' Right?

Originally posted by BOOG II




You know, I thought that you would have more fight in you. You've gotta be past your prime. Anyone Gideon calls 'smart' shouldn't be this pathetic.

This argument is beyond retarded. Sidious is simply beyond both of these two.

Misquoting my posts now? Just whom in the hell do you think you are? That kind of behaviour is most certainly not on. Reported. Jerk.

'Not on' what, if I may be so bold as to ask? It is generally not considered good form to end a sentence with a preposition. You might want to watch out for that. (That is something for which you might want to watch out.)

Besides. I wasn't 'misquoting' your responses, I was responding to some socially crippled idiot named 'BOOG II.' He was really pretty dumb.

Originally posted by Publius II
You're definitely going to get banned again at this rate. Calm down.

And the novelization supports the idea that Luke, in his "moment of dark clarity," was indeed overpowering and "humiliat" Vader in their duel. That said - this is for you, kotor3 - Vader was not doing everything he could to kill his son. That doesn't necessarily mean that he was throwing the fight, but had he brought his vastly superior power in the Force to bear with the intent to kill he would have crushed Luke. It's almost an exact parallel to Vader's own duel with Count Dooku in RotS; the older combatant should have won through use of his Force abilities, but ended up being overpowered when the younger combatant with greater reserves of power surrendered to his rage.

Alright faunus, i just better control myself when i argue with people that are stubborn.

But its weird that luke was able to overpower vader at one point with his rage while galen couldn't and had to achieve a state of clarity to whoop vader/

Individuality's a b*tch, eh?

Originally posted by Jimmify
Misquoting my posts now? Just whom in the hell do you think you are? That kind of behaviour is most certainly not on. Reported. Jerk.

Shut the hell up.

Sidious dosn't win,

Gideon you haven't made much of an argument. I would say Sidious' powers did not get any more considerable from ROTS to ROTJ and while force users can compensate for physical lackings using the force, this is very draining.

Therefore Sidious would have to first of all

1) heavily compensate for his physical deterioration, he is very corrutped at this point, and would have to cross blades with Luke Skywalker, and also

2) stop Vader's force grip, which is a very powerful technique for the V man.

For arguments sake Palpatine manages to do this, he successfully defends against Luke and shields himself from choke. He still has to kill Luke with a saber since he has engaged him, and Vader and Luke are both Form V, odds are Vader runs in with Form V and starts trampling the shit out of Palpatine while Palpatine fights with Luke.

Palpatine contest them both? both these duelists simultaniously? I think not.

Originally posted by DarkSideisMeth
Sidious dosn't win,

Gideon you haven't made much of an argument. I would say Sidious' powers did not get any more considerable from ROTS to ROTJ and while force users can compensate for physical lackings using the force, this is very draining.

Therefore Sidious would have to first of all

1) heavily compensate for his physical deterioration, he is very corrutped at this point, and would have to cross blades with Luke Skywalker, and also

2) stop Vader's force grip, which is a very powerful technique for the V man.

For arguments sake Palpatine manages to do this, he successfully defends against Luke and shields himself from choke. He still has to kill Luke with a saber since he has engaged him, and Vader and Luke are both Form V, odds are Vader runs in with Form V and starts trampling the shit out of Palpatine while Palpatine fights with Luke.

Palpatine contest them both? both these duelists simultaniously? I think not. Do you have proof that Palpatine's age and appearance has hindered his physical prowess? And do you truly believe that Vader's TK and Luke's 3 weeks of training are gonna stand up against him? A Force grip is the single most deadly TK move... one can use against Admiral Motti. Use it against the your master and most powerful Dark Lord (the same guy who trained you to accommodate for your electrical hazard of a body), is a different story.

The man took on the most celebrated and talented swordsmen the Order ever produced, and you think a kid who swings his saber around like it's a baseball bat is gonna be a problem to him? And with free reign over the entire galaxy, the Emperor's gonna have leave to go and learn from any well of knowledge he so chooses.

#1 it was self evident about Sidious' weaker physical state, but I believe it was also mentioned, and was discussed recently in a thread. Yes his body was thoroughly corrupted by the dark side and weaker, it is a sympton of his deep immersion and is valid. Also Luke Skywalker has the unrealized potential of his father, and holds a multitude of achievements as a testament to this fact even in ROTJ, his few weeks of training irregardless. Vader also honed his skills continually (that we have proof of in novels) during this interlude, we do not have the same evidence Sidious did, or felt the need to.

Obviously he took on Windu, and yes the sky is blue. But his past achievements do not translate from ROTS Sid to ROTJ Sid in terms of physical prowess.

Originally posted by DarkSideisMeth
#1 it was self evident about Sidious' weaker physical state, but I believe it was also mentioned, and was discussed recently in a thread. Point the way.

Originally posted by DarkSideisMeth
Yes his body was thoroughly corrupted by the dark side and weaker, it is a sympton of his deep immersion and is valid. Also Luke Skywalker has the unrealized potential of his father, and holds a multitude of achievements as a testament to this fact even in ROTJ, his few weeks of training irregardless. "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday..." What he might become means nothing here.

Originally posted by DarkSideisMeth
Vader also honed his skills continually (that we have proof of in novels) during this interlude, we do not have the same evidence Sidious did, or felt the need to. And yet we still know that Vader was only 80%.

Originally posted by DarkSideisMeth
Obviously he took on Windu, and yes the sky is blue. But his past achievements do not translate from ROTS Sid to ROTJ Sid in terms of physical prowess. And so thus, his immensely more accomplished Force prowess falls by the wayside.

Haha if you don't know that sidious was weaker in ROTJ physically than ROTS I can only shake my head. Pretty sure lucas dosn't need to outline the obious points in crayon.

And I was arguing, if you actually read what I said, about Luke's achievements up to that point that demonstrate his unrealized potential. That isn't about what he may become, its a statement justifying that you can't be so black and white about him and Sidious, and that he very well could have held his own in ROTJ.

Originally posted by DarkSideisMeth
Haha if you don't know that sidious was weaker in ROTJ physically than ROTS I can only shake my head. Pretty sure lucas dosn't need to outline the obious points in crayon.

And I was arguing, if you actually read what I said, about Luke's achievements up to that point that demonstrate his unrealized potential. That isn't about what he may become, its a statement justifying that you can't be so black and white about him and Sidious, and that he very well could have held his own in ROTJ. Um, yes, we actually do need GL to spell it out for us. Can you imagine the endless cycle of debates if he hadn't explicitly said Dooku lost fair and square, Vader's 80%, etc.?

And seriously, buddy, throw me a bone here. I'm a hungry dog--STARVING for some sources! I can't scrounge around with a belly full of supposition and opinions.

Well this is discussion, opinion is going to be a lot of it. I don't have the books in front of me to draw from, I will mention what i recall from reading, usually also stating with a (?) if I'm incorrect or say as I recall. But if your just going to hover around needing an edict from Pope GL on every subject, I can't really run much by you.

Star Wars universe, to a degree is open to debate on a variety of issues. It is still expanding, every changing, and dynamic, while the outcome of certain events are written in stone we are always allowed to voice our opinion on any given idea with support. And that dosn't need to constantly be from a piece of writing, although drawing upon sources of examples is a good idea.

But I'm done, you've pretty much played devils advocate to everything I've posted tonight, without really putting much an argument up yourself or producing anything for discussion. If this is the way this forum is run generally, then I do not belong here and will probably retire to the Expanded Universe one.

Peace out Lucien, perhaps see you in future discussion.

Originally posted by DarkSideisMeth
Well this is discussion, opinion is going to be a lot of it. I don't have the books in front of me to draw from, I will mention what i recall from reading, usually also stating with a (?) if I'm incorrect or say as I recall. But if your just going to hover around needing an edict from Pope GL on every subject, I can't really run much by you.

Star Wars universe, to a degree is open to debate on a variety of issues. It is still expanding, every changing, and dynamic, while the outcome of certain events are written in stone we are always allowed to voice our opinion on any given idea with support. And that dosn't need to constantly be from a piece of writing, although drawing upon sources of examples is a good idea.

But I'm done, you've pretty much played devils advocate to everything I've posted tonight, without really putting much an argument up yourself or producing anything for discussion. If this is the way this forum is run generally, then I do not belong here and will probably retire to the Expanded Universe one.

Peace out Lucien, perhaps see you in future discussion. Will someone fill this guy in for me?

Originally posted by Captain REX
Shut the hell up.

Lol ! The poor guy only got one post in before being banned again.

Anyhow, are we talking about RotS Sidious or RotJ Sidious, because I'm getting confused about that.

Says right in the title, RotS.

Yes for the record we are talking about ROTS Sidious. Also Lord Lucien were do you get that Luke only received three weeks of training?

When Luke went for more training by Yoda, Yoda stated that there was nothing more to teach. Yoda also stated that Luke would have to defeat Vader to become a Jedi showing that he recognize that Luke was ready to battle Vader.

Vader stated that your skills are complete. Luke also mustered up enough force power to overpower Vader. Vader who is 80% of a ROTJ Sidious. Even Sidious provoke Luke into a battle with Vader. You also have Obi Wan who express his confidence in Luke. So you have two Jedi Masters and two Sith Lords who all express that Luke was ready to fight Vader.

Since the only proof that has been provided that Vader was not giving his all is Luke's own feelings on the matter and Vader was legitimately defeated by Luke, how is Luke not a factor in this battle?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Yes for the record we are talking about ROTS Sidious. Also Lord Lucien were do you get that Luke only received three weeks of training?

When Luke went for more training by Yoda, Yoda stated that there was nothing more to teach. Yoda also stated that Luke would have to defeat Vader to become a Jedi showing that he recognize that Luke was ready to battle Vader.

Vader stated that your skills are complete. Luke also mustered up enough force power to overpower Vader. Vader who is 80% of a ROTJ Sidious. Even Sidious provoke Luke into a battle with Vader. You also have Obi Wan who express his confidence in Luke. So you have two Jedi Masters and two Sith Lords who all express that Luke was ready to fight Vader.

Since the only proof that has been provided that Vader was not giving his all is Luke's own feelings on the matter and Vader was legitimately defeated by Luke, how is Luke not a factor in this battle? "Your skills are complete," certainly can't be an attempt at persuasion by Vader. "Nothing left for you to learn (or whatever)" certainly can't be the words of a dieing master trying to boost the confidence of the only possible person who can pull a win out of his hat.

Skills are complete... and yet Luke goes from down here *gestures with hand near ground*, to up there *points to the summit of Mount Olympus*.

Hmm, something doesn't mesh... what could it be?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
"Your skills are complete," certainly can't be an attempt at persuasion by Vader. "Nothing left for you to learn (or whatever)" certainly can't be the words of a dieing master trying to boost the confidence of the only possible person who can pull a win out of his hat.

Skills are complete... and yet Luke goes from down here *gestures with hand near ground*, to up there *points to the summit of Mount Olympus*.

Hmm, something doesn't mesh... what could it be?

Ok. So Vader wanted to persuade someone who already came there to either fight him or submit himself to the Emperor. Yoda also wanted Luke to commit suicide and gave him some encouraging words, even though he knew Luke had no chance. Also Obi Wan knew Luke had no chance. This is not ESB Luke.

I have no more agrument on this one. You feel that Luke is not a factor then fine. I do feel he is a factor and provided examples and quotes to support my reasoning. You can translate them into whatever fits your argument if you wish.

Originally posted by Kotor3


Since the only proof that has been provided that Vader was not giving his all is Luke's own feelings on the matter and Vader was legitimately defeated by Luke, how is Luke not a factor in this battle? Good god, read what faunus posted then, he simply resaid everything i said, just that its shorter.

Vader wasn't going all out period fullstop.

Uh-huh.

Listen, I realize you're new around here, so I'm not going to berate or reprimand you for your retarded opinion. The fact of the matter is that you are woefully ignorant of the majority of sources that indicate that Palpatine's powers and skills exceed even the combined strength of Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker; so I will attempt to deal with you once and only once. If you continue to remain obstinate, then I'll simply put you on Ignore and move on.



Well, as we have seen, you know essentially jack shit about the continuity. So I shall explain for you. When Palpatine ascended to Galactic Emperor, he delegated the majority of his responsibilities to aides and acolytes such as Sate Pestage. His role was simply to be supreme; he had others handle the day-to-day operations of the Empire while he secluded himself on Coruscant to further his study of the Force. According to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, Palpatine gathered the greatest works of Force knowledge in over a million worlds and mastered the Force in all its guises. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia goes on to say that Palpatine collected a wealth of holocrons -- Sith and Jedi alike -- to study. The fact of the matter is that due to greater resources and a greater scope of study, he did increase in power, considerably.

So, yeah, you're wrong.

Palpatine's physical state isn't a handicap; ancient and withered creatures like Yoda are able to compensate using the Force. Is Sidious any different? No. He is faster, far more powerful, and far cleverer than either opponents. They don't have a prayer.

I don't think PT Palpatine isn't "far" more powerful than OT Vader.