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I don't know how others feel, which is why I am starting this topic, but.

I don't think Vader stepping in to save his son from Sidious merits him returning to the light side as a force ghost alongside his mentor and Yoda and Qui Gon Jin, this was always a point of contention with me and the Star Wars Universe.

Disagreement? Agreement?

One could argue that "Vader" didn't do shite. Anakin booted Vader out and he stepped in to save Luke.

Ohhh **** that, I guess one could argue that.
But I am totally opposed to that point of view.
Sometimes Anakin isn't held accountable for his actions because people simply say "well he was Vader then," I don't agree. He is still liable for Vader's actions. Maybe I'm too conservative, but I feel justified in that statement.

You're a fascist is what you are.

The idea of Anakin lieing dormant is supported by GL's decision to install Hayden as Anakin's ghost. One of the few changes to the OT I didn't mind.

A fascist eh,
Well Lucien thank you for revealing your own ignorance and trivializing a word already tossed around to lightly today. Interesting how you can take near any disucssion or piece of info I make and sit there and basically sit on GL's lap.

And here i clicked on this thread thinking I would find something interesting from you.

If this keeps up I will surely quit these forums,
Way to not produce anything of your own.

Originally posted by DarkSideisMeth
A fascist eh,
Well Lucien thank you for revealing your own ignorance and trivializing a word already tossed around to lightly today. Interesting how you can take near any disucssion or piece of info I make and sit there and basically sit on GL's lap.

And here i clicked on this thread thinking I would find something interesting from you.

If this keeps up I will surely quit these forums,
Way to not produce anything of your own. You know what I love about people who take everything they read too literally? They're hypocrites. You come to this forum looking for interesting and intelligence eh? So do we. We have rules here. First and foremost, anything George Lucas says, is law. It's canon.

And you know what I love about ignorance? Every time I've been described as such it's because the accuser is ignorant too. Ignorant in the forum rules that are conveniently stuck at the top of thread list. Ignorant in their staunch resolve that just because they read it in their heads a certain tone, means the writer of the words intended them as such. benefit of the doubt... does no one love democracy anymore? Guess that would make 'em fascist, eh buddy?

Anakin really didn't become Vader until the cleansing of the Jedi Temple and Mustafar. When his body was rebuilt and Sidious told him that he killed Padme, that's truly when Anakin "died" and became Vader. Later on the second DS, he was watching his son being tortured. I think anyone would intervene to save their child.

Look at Darth Revan - he killed numerous Jedi and was responsible for the Jedi Civil War. But he turned his back on the dark side with some help of course from Bastilla and the Council.

Revan isn't a good example since he originally didn't want to be redeemed, it was forced upon him and he was powerless to stop it. Then on Lehon his mindstate has been "contaminated" for a while.

Indeed, Revan isn't a great example of that.

Lucien, Meth, please don't quarrel. It doesn't gain anything. In any case, I think that Lucien is right. Anakin was able to push off his Vader persona and shun the Dark Side when he rescued Luke, a selfless act which redeemed him. We don't really know how the Force ghost works, to be honest, though sacrificing yourself in a selfless act could be part of it. We don't know, nor will we.

True, Revan is not a really good example, since he originally didn't choose redemption.

But, he did have the choice to turn over to the dark side again, and he didn't take it, even knowing what he could become (once more) and the power he could gain. Surely that ought to count for something?

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
True, Revan is not a really good example, since he originally didn't choose redemption.

But, he did have the choice to turn over to the dark side again, and he didn't take it, even knowing what he could become (once more) and the power he could gain. Surely that ought to count for something?

It doesn't count for to much in my book. You have to remember that his new mind was reprogrammed to be loyal to the republic,then you have all of his previous encounters with the sith, his new relationship with the jedi and party members, the lack of his full memories which contained the reason he became a sith in the first place and then we don't how much is personality traits were affected by his new found loyalty.

True.

But, he is still a Jedi, reprogrammed or not. He resisted an incredible temptation.

Although, I can't argue that much, because I don't even how does reprogramming minds work. If the mind reprogrammation only affects his personality traits, and not his loyalty or his morals (since his mind was erased, they may have only reprogrammed his memory and personality, not his loyalty) in my opinion, resisting that sort of temptation was impressive.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Although, I can't argue that much, because I don't even how does reprogramming minds work. If the mind reprogrammation only affects his personality traits, and not his loyalty or his morals (since his mind was erased, they may have only reprogrammed his memory and personality, not his loyalty) in my opinion, resisting that sort of temptation was impressive.

Erm, I believe they did tamper with loyalty heavily. We don't know for sure how this mind reprogramming technique works but I find it difficult to believe that they can alter his personality. My theory (and keep in mind that it is only a theory) is that the kindness traits he portrays in kotor is/was apart of his real personality prior to his fall to the darkside. But some of personalty traits such as tactical skills, defiance(or headstrongness that led him to orignially defy the jedi council) and whatever trait you would attribute his willingness to fall to the ds were altered by experiences since his mind was reprogrammed. I hope I explained my views correctly.

Hmm... Well, I guess we'll never know.

But if they did temper heavily with loyalty, I do not understand why damn Vrook is so phucking worried about him betraying the Jedi and the Republic again... Makes no sense.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Hmm... Well, I guess we'll never know.

But if they did temper heavily with loyalty, I do not understand why damn Vrook is so phucking worried about him betraying the Jedi and the Republic again... Makes no sense.
I believe they still wanted him for memories/sith secrets, mainly the star forge. They were probably scared of him remembering his real identity or that some of his darker personality traits would reemerge. It is really complicated but the main is that Revan is far from a good example of redemption.

So, the Jedi Council used (I'm just going to call it this) selective behavior modification on Revan? I thought that was a trait only used by dark side users - mostly the Sith when one was turned. Cpt. Valerian maybe in KOTOR2 it's was ommitted that the Council tried the same with the Exile, but failed.

Elite, what you are saying does make some sense, but are not some Jedi prone to the darkside like Exar Kun and Anakin? I'm going to name a few: Revan, Exar Kun & Anakin were increbibly strong in the Force. But being that strong in the Force wouldn't you want more power? All three turned for various different reasons, but at the very core was power. When Revan fell he craved power from the ancient Sith. Exar Kun fell to conquer the galaxy & Anakin fell because he wanted to save Padme.

It's kinda ironic that Anakin turned to the darkside because of love, but it was love that saved him. Vader because a Jedi again when Luke was being tortured by the Emp. Luke had Vader at his mercy, but he didn't kill him - that had to have some impact on Vader's psyche.

Anakin died in a gesture of, if not redemption, then at least an attempt at atonement,. Obviously none of this obviates the guilt he has for his crimes and all those that died because of him, but at the same time he finally realised the truth behind all he had done and took action to save many many lioves as well- out of the prue, unattached love for his son, which was the only link back to the good man Anakin had tried to be (though, to watch the PT, he doesn't seem to try that hard).

You would be right to hate Anakin for what he did, you would be right, if he had lived, to imprison him for them, you would be right to curse him through history for it. But you would be wrong to deny hiom that gift of the Force because he did finally come good at the end for totally selfless reasons.

*scratch head*

is what y'all sort of saying is that Anakin is not responsible for what Vader did?

I dunno.. maybe he wasn't Vader when he did lots of those things, but, Anakin still was the one who turned/i], right? so in some sort of way, he was still responsible.. right?

...the way people keep separating Anakin from Vader... he does not have Dissociative Identity Disorder does he?

It's not a bipolar issue, but Vader was the... personification of Anakin's Dark Side. Anakin-based, and Anakin-certified but not Anakin full.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's not a bipolar issue, but Vader was the... personification of Anakin's Dark Side. Anakin-based, and Anakin-certified but not Anakin full.

Dissociative Identity = Multiple Personality Disorder, btw.

so its another one of Anakin's personalities? So does that mean he has the disorder - sort of, anyway?

Well.. If that was the case, then all of the redeemed ex-Sith or Dark Jedi have it. I doubt it's a presonality disorder, it's just one of the many ways in which the dark side corrupts your being.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
Dissociative Identity = Multiple Personality Disorder, btw.

so its another one of Anakin's personalities? So does that mean he has the disorder - sort of, anyway? You're seriously applying Earth-based psychology on characters from a galaxy filled with an ethereal energy field that f*cks with their minds?

Anakin in RoTS said to Padme "only my new powers can save you . . ."
Jacen turned because of his false belief that by becoming a Sith Lord, he could save his daughter.

Using and being of the darkside are two very different perspectives. Zekk turned because he was told that the Jedi feared him because of his power. When he was of the dark he was stronger than Jacen and Jaina, but he couldn't kill his former friends. He turned to the light soon afterwards. Others like Exar Kun and Sidious are consumed with the lust for power. Bastilla saved Revan by bringging before the Council. She and Revan loved each other. Anakin loved Padme and when he saw Luke being tortured by Sidious, he had to save his son. His redemption had to be his death though.

See, I'm not sure about that. What if he had been treated (medically) and he survived? Would he have retained his lightside status or was it a temporary state like Jacen's 'ultimate oneness with the Force' at the end of TUF?

Very good question. I think with Juno, Kota and the Alliance he would have remained lightside Red.

Didn't Kota die? (And who is Juno? I'm still in the dark about most of TFU.)

I'd be surprised if a lifetime (or at least 19 years) of Darkside habits would be so easily forgotten. Have there been any other cases of (non-Revan, he needed reprogramming) darksiders being redeemed and staying redeemed? Especially with someone as powerful with the Dark Side as Vader, I would be astonished if he didn't relapse. His methods would at the very least shock the Alliance.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You're seriously applying Earth-based psychology on characters from a galaxy filled with an ethereal energy field that f*cks with their minds?

*shrug*

I'm bored.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
See, I'm not sure about that. What if he had been treated (medically) and he survived? Would he have retained his lightside status or was it a temporary state like Jacen's 'ultimate oneness with the Force' at the end of TUF?

It was thematically appropriate, which is the override to any debate about the question.

Juno Eclipse - Galen's love intererst. Kota didn't die either. He was one of the initial founders of the Rebellion. I don't know what happened to him afterwards or when he died.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It was thematically appropriate, which is the override to any debate about the question.

We're arguing the validity of the redemption, and I admit that I got side-tracked. Was Vader's betrayal of Sidious (and by extension, the Dark Side itself) enough to warrant a light side conversion? I don't feel like it was- one act doesn't make up for 19 years of oppression- so I wondered if the salvation was a limited time only deal.


Does the fact that Vader died increase the relative 'goodness' of his act?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
We're arguing the validity of the redemption, and I admit that I got side-tracked. Was Vader's betrayal of Sidious (and by extension, the Dark Side itself) enough to warrant a light side conversion? I don't feel like it was- one act doesn't make up for 19 years of oppression- so I wondered if the salvation was a limited time only deal.


Does the fact that Vader died increase the relative 'goodness' of his act? I don't think the issue is whether he was brought back to the light. One does not need an abundance of deeds to prove one's alignment with it, that's an internal, mental thing. The issue is whether the sacrifice redeemed Vader in the eyes of morality and the law. Which it didn't.