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Luke fights each battle at full strength.

Asajj Ventress
Grievous
Kit Fisto
Maul
Dooku

Yea I don't really see him getting past Ventress.

Seriously. Why is everyone crediting RotJ Luke with so much these days?

I feel ROTJ Luke does not get enough credit. What he accomplished under the circumstances he faced in such a little time is pretty extraordinary. I believe the different views come from the way Luke is depicted in movies in contrast to the way he is depicted in literature.

Movies get precedence. And no one's slamming Luke's achievements, it's the skills and powers people think he has.

If he is able to get past the ugly woman, he will be sliced by the ugly droid.

When the 'people mentioned in the thread' include Darth Maul and F'ing Count Dooku then you are clearly descending into fanboyism. Its a weak fanboyism too- you could worship a DBZ style character instead of a scrawny farm kid... but I digress.

Luke's 'directing firepower' means very little as the only thing he did was let the Force guide his shots. He did not apply the Force. It was completely passive. Accessing the Force under pressure is a good feat but everyone can do it.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Lord Lucien you stated before that no one is trying to take away from Luke's achievements but you just did with your statement above.

Where exactly does he say Luke isn't able to use the Force..?

Luke doesn't make it past Ventress and if by some miracle he does Grievous pwns him.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Lord Lucien you stated before that no one is trying to take away from Luke's achievements but you just did with your statement above.




Those feats listed aren't all that great, nor do they put him on or very the level of Vader, nor of the level of any of the opponents in this duel. Let's take a look

Ventress, I'm not all that familiar but I do know she killed multiple in the cw and gave Anakin tough duels when they fought. The fact that she uses two lightsabers and can connect is a huge advantage since ROTJ Luke has never fought an opponent with them before.

Grievous's style is completely unorthodox, he has shown himself to be able to contend with multiple jedi at once, and has killed numerous jedi in the cw. The fact that he uses 4 lightsabers=Luke getting curbstomped not to mention that he defeated Ventress and Durge at the same time.

Kit Fisto was one of the orders greatest lightsaber duelists ever and he was to push back General Grievous, cutting off one of his mechanical hands, which caused him to call for his manga guards to come to his aid.

Darth Maul is a physical beast, "one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history," he is a master of unarmed combat, juyo, he was able to kill Qui-gon who was "one of the most able swordsman" in the order and he forced Anoon Bondara to try a suicidal maneuver since he couldn't kill Maul.

Count Dooku was the one trained General Grievous, he is master of Makashi(and had a good knowledge of the other forms), he has decades of experience, he was of only two jedi to beat Mace Windu (the other being Yoda) in lightsaber combat, he is more powerful then Luke force. Do I really need to go on?

... And the order of the combatants is not the best, really.

I'd put it this way:

1. Kit Fisto
2. Asajj Ventress
3. Maul/Grievous
4. Grievous/Maul
5. Dooku

Then why did you say he 'takes away from Luke's achievements' if he simply said that he doesn't excel in them?

Excelling does not = achievements.

How the he... Heck did you reach that conclusion? To direct 'firepower' one does not do anything more strenuous than move a joystick and press some buttons. You are still aiming something. It isn't like Luke used a Shadow Bomb to take out the Death Star. There is no difference between aiming a blaster under stress and aiming a torpedo under stress.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I disagree with this statement.

Look at the feats




This is the only one that is impressive but has nothing to do with personal combat nor does it put him above any of his opponents.


TPM Obiwan made two jumps in his duel vs Maul one was while hanging on a pipe, I'm so impressed that Luke can do the basics.



Great, guess what, most jedi can influence the weak minded how does that put above Ventress?


When Vader isn't trying to kill him and he was using his anger since he tried to strike down Palpatine which started the duel. Under normal circumstances he would not use his anger/darkside and vs anyone else Vader would not be holding back.


I mean no offense when I say this but, whoopdie f***in do.




Yes there is, anger/aggression=darkside, Luke=Jedi=lightside.

How about the fact that she temporarily incapacitated Kit Fitso(one of the greatest duelists the order has ever produced , Luke isn't beating either btw), and that she was more then a match vs Luminara Unduli and Ahsoka Tano.


Completely wrong, the fact that Luke has never fought someone who uses jar kai (not to mention she could could connect the blades together) is a huge disadvantage for him, prove that Luke can handle that by ROTJ.


No


I believe there is a quote out there that states he has knowledge in all forms, save for Vapaad maybe.


Your XYZ argument is 100% incorrect. There was circumstances surrounding Luke's victory over Vader. Dooku was "hard pressed" at times to defeat him. Please explain how you want Luke to defeat someone who uses four lightsabers at once and can get them to spin up to "twenty strikes per second" his brain allows to adapt event replicate an opponents fighting technique, such as he tried with Vapaad. Your far from proving that Luke could kill Grievous.


He is right, how could we overlook the fact that he had the emperor was telling him to user his anger, which he did since the very beginning of the duel.

*You're*


How good is Ventress?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
How good is Ventress?

Very.

She's a bit underrated imo. By the time Obsession rolls around I believe she's killed nearly 20 Jedi masters (or was it just jedi in general?).

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
*You're*

Oops,



That is a good question, I'm not qualified to answer that but I do know she is above ROTJ Luke. Maybe we should discuss her in PH, since no one has posted anything new about Marek in it.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Then why did you say he 'takes away from Luke's achievements' if he simply said that he doesn't excel in them?

Excelling does not = achievements.

I thought I explained this already. Simply put Luke excelled in using the force. If there is someone else with little to no training in the force that can direct a torpedo or fire power from a space ship I am all ears. Luke shocked Vader at how quickly and effectively he used the force especially under the circumstances he executed them. To say that Luke did not excelled in them is to say that any force user could have done the same with the same amount of training Luke received.

If there is anyone else who did so, I am all ears.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
How the he... Heck did you reach that conclusion? To direct 'firepower' one does not do anything more strenuous than move a joystick and press some buttons. You are still aiming something. It isn't like Luke used a Shadow Bomb to take out the Death Star. There is no difference between aiming a blaster under stress and aiming a torpedo under stress.

Red Nemesis I definitely disagree with your statement. The statement you made is the same as saying moving a pencil in mid-air is the same as moving a car in mid-air. Directing a pencil in mid-air is the same as directing a car in mid-air. How is a blaster and torpedo the same? One is moving with more force and power than the other and would take more effort with the force.

If you cannot see that there is a difference between the two then there is not more for as to discuss here. Unless you can prove to me how a blaster and a torpedo is the same.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Obi Wan who received how many more years of training than Luke? Yes Luke can do the basics and quite effectively. Please I am ready to be educated. Tell me some who I mention on this thread besides Dooku who did more than the basics with the force.

Guess what they don't have to do more then the basics, Vadr used TK vs Luke in ESB and Luke got owned . Furthermore show us how many times that LUke actually uses the force offensive in a duel.


WTF is your point? Being able to use the force on a weak minded nonforce sensitive isn't impressive.


Too bad your wrong

ROTJ Novel:

From the 1st half of the duel


Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again - much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader's phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously - but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees.

Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so overpowering as to totally obliterate all other considerations.
He had the power; the choice was his.

And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer.

It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil.

He took one step forward.


How they hell is he not using the darkside? And why at this point in the duel would Vader want to kill Luke in a lightsaber duel? It is quite clear that Luke was going all, for the entire duel,save for when he turns off his lightsaber He wanted to turn Luke to the ds so logically he wouldn't land a killing blow if it presented itself to him.



Then please explain how you want Luke to contend with someone using jar kai and it very proficient in it. Your entire reasoning for Luke's "victory" of Ventress is a bad example of an XYZ argument.



And your answer is wrong, Vader has no reason to try and kill Luke the first half of the duel(which is until Luke kicks Vader down the stairs and then turns off his saber) Again your XYZ argument is wrong. Please explain to us, how you want Luke to contend with someone who faces multiple jedi at once , users four f***in lightsabers, whose style is completely unique, who was able to get his blades to spin up to "twenty strikes per second" which "overloaded (ROTS) Obi-Wan's defense," has knowledge in all saber forms, and thanks to his cyborg brain can adapt and even mimic an opponents fighting style. Come up with a real answer not "oh he beat Vader therefore beats character X"


It was because of the Emperor's taunts that the duel even started in the first place, and Vader didn't taunt him in the first half of the duel, which the passage I posted proves he was using the darkside.

Some quotes that show Luke must have been ready to face Vader:

Darth Vader: I see you have constructed a new light saber. Your skills are complete. Indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has foreseen.

Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.

Yoda: No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.
Luke: Then I am a Jedi.
Yoda: No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

No.

Luke is not directing a pencil or a torpedo in midair. He is *aiming* them. If he had used the force to move the torpedo into position then you might have an argument. As it is, the only thing he used the Force to accomplish was to manipulate a set of controls. It took no more effort to move the joystick a millimeter to the left than it would to move a blaster a millimeter to the left.

Got that? He wasn't directly manipulating the shots; Luke only worked with the controls.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
No.

Luke is not directing a pencil or a torpedo in midair. He is *aiming* them. If he had used the force to move the torpedo into position then you might have an argument. As it is, the only thing he used the Force to accomplish was to manipulate a set of controls. It took no more effort to move the joystick a millimeter to the left than it would to move a blaster a millimeter to the left.

Got that? He wasn't directly manipulating the shots; Luke only worked with the controls.

I understand your statement now more clearly. However I never got the impression that you just stated. Luke did not use the targeting system. So how would the controls help him? Do you have a source that proves your point that Luke was only controlling the controls, which makes no sense to me? The controls can only help but so much.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Congratulations, you just won a one way ticket to my ignore list, population you. Someone else can take over because I just can't stand the stupidity in this post.

I'm really hurt. Do as you please.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I'm really hurt. Do as you please. He didn't see that.

I'll give you the benefit of the fact that I can't be bothered to read the entire thread. Could you outline your points and facts in regards to the argument?

Thank you Red, that was basically what I would have said.

@ Cpt, you are correct I'm not saying that others could have done what Luke did if they were place in his situation, what I'm saying is that the feats themselves don't put him above his opponents.

Honestly, Nemesis, one thing that does amuse me about you is that when you conduct your "smug corrections", you tend to mysteriously vanish when one of your targets corrects you. Nearly every instance that you have corrected me, I have corrected you.

Either stop doing it or have the balls to accept that you're hardly an infallible linguist.

Originally posted by Gideon
Honestly, Nemesis, one thing that does amuse me about you is that when you conduct your "smug corrections", you tend to mysteriously vanish when one of your targets corrects you. Nearly every instance that you have corrected me, I have corrected you.
When you corrected me it was a direct contradiction of what Darth Subjekt (or whatever the hell his name is) asserted. I figured that he and my Real World English teacher were a greater authority than you. I didn't think it was worth my time to argue though, because Subject could have been lying about his credentials and I didn't have a link to a source that you would accept.

Originally posted by Gideon

Either stop doing it or have the balls to accept that you're hardly an infallible linguist.

If you didn't notice, Subject (again- what is his name?) brought me to task. I failed hard in that exchange. Faunus is just a crybaby about his responses- I think I got the last word when he tried to argue.

That said, I will admit that I am not infallible. Most of what I know (or care about) has come from third party internet sources- not from formal education.


Addendum: I am smug because I am right more often than not.

Irrelevant.

I don't mind if people sling insults or act smug; Lord knows I'm guilty of much more than my fair share. The difference, however, is that when I am proven wrong, I will not conveniently step into the shadows unlike certain parties are notorious for doing. If you have the temerity to throw fists, you should have the balls to handle and acknowledge the legitimate retaliation.

That is the one thing that limits my respect for you. As far as you being smug goes, that's the rationale that I have. Even against you. You correct my grammar, and yet when we debate, you tend to be on the losing side. Should I be a prick to you endlessly and not acknowledge those times when you are right?

No.

And I believe you meant Subjekt "was" a greater authority than me, not "were." That wasn't the only time that I corrected you.

Originally posted by Gideon
Irrelevant.

I don't mind if people sling insults or act smug; Lord knows I'm guilty of much more than my fair share. The difference, however, is that when I am proven wrong, I will not conveniently step into the shadows unlike certain parties are notorious for doing. If you have the temerity to throw fists, you should have the balls to handle and acknowledge the legitimate retaliation.

That is the one thing that limits my respect for you. As far as you being smug goes, that's the rationale that I have. Even against you. You correct my grammar, and yet when we debate, you tend to be on the losing side. Should I be a prick to you endlessly and not acknowledge those times when you are right?

No.
I have admitted in the past that you have beat me in debates. And after the TJ debacle I have tried to scale it down.

But you know what? You are right. I am a prick sometimes.

That's kind of what the internet is for. When I'm in an actual conversation I try to eliminate it completely. In a debate though, I see no reason not to correct my opponent on every issue in which their position or terminology strays from the truth.


Originally posted by Gideon

And I believe you meant Subjekt "was" a greater authority than me, not "were." That wasn't the only time that I corrected you.

What do you mean?

(I did put 'my RW English teacher' in parenthesis incorrectly. True. But it was bait. I wouldn't have told you except that edit sniping you isn't nearly as fun as getting Faunus.)

Bait. Sure.

You're missing the whole point of this discussion, Red. I'm not faulting you for being a prick. I'm faulting you for being a prick and running off into the darkness after getting your ass kicked.

Stick around and man up. Take your licks, as the rednecks would say.

Originally posted by Gideon
Bait. Sure.

You're missing the whole point of this discussion, Red. I'm not faulting you for being a prick. I'm faulting you for being a prick and running off into the darkness after getting your ass kicked.

Stick around and man up. Take your licks, as the rednecks would say.



O...............K?


Do your worst. I guess.


Edit: Ass kicked? The best you've got is a misplaced set of parenthesis.

Er... you're not getting it, lol.

Well then.

What would be 'getting it'?

What is the correct response?

I'm not threatening to humiliate you here. I'm simply telling you that you need to stop correcting people and then running off when you lose a debate or someone corrects your grammar. You're notorious for it. It irks me and makes me question the respect I have for you. Either stop your "smug corrections" or, at the very least, when you are corrected say: "Damn, you got me. Sorry."

Simple.

Fair enough.

I believe you made a grammar mistake there. ermm

BAIT!

"Damn, you got me. Sorry."


Also: WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT I WAS USING A F*CKING CONVERSATIONAL TONE SO...


Oh. Right.

"Damn, you got me. Sorry."


Edit: ...Yes. It was bait. THAT'S what that was.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
To fire a torpedo (while in an X-wing) one must only pull the 'fire' trigger. The aiming is accomplished (usually) by a 'targeting computer' that fires with much greater accuracy than an unaided human ever could. Luke, during the assault on the first Death Star, chose to turn off his computer and use the Force to aim his shot. It still took no more effort to shoot than pressing a button: the only difference was that Luke let the Force guide his actions. Luke did not apply Force (or force) to the torpedo after it had left his ship, he did not make course corrections or increase the torpedo's speed. The only thing he used the Force for during his flight was to make sure that his hands pressed the button at the right time and while in the correct place. No more, no less. ALL Luke did was 'open himself to the Force.'
Understood. I concede to this point. I give you that one but don't think for a moment I concede to anything else you said.