Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

All out

Dooku and Maul. Seriously.

Very debatable. Because of Kreia's drain and her human immortal shield, it won't be easy. Seriously.

I'd love to see a lightsaber battle between Sion and Maul though, two supposedly scary looking characters fighting while Dooku and Kreia are having a tea party.

I have to say I'm sick of hearing about the KotOR era's Drain. It seems to function on several different levels and like almost all of that era, we have nothing to gauge it's effects and strength in comparison to those of other era's.

And both Kreia and Sion's lightsaber skills have niente on Dooku and Maul's.

Kreia's isn't actually a drain, it's more like a force sever thingy.

I don't really care about Kreia because she only took down three unknown Jedi masters, it's Nihilius who annoys me with his excessive use of drain powers.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Kreia's isn't actually a drain, it's more like a force sever thingy.

I don't really care about Kreia because she only took down three unknown Jedi masters, it's Nihilius who annoys me with his excessive use of drain powers.

Why would you say Kreia ability is not really a force drain? She did use it and killed three jedi masters with it. I do not think you can use the other method unless you are on the light side and I don't believe it kills anyone.

The shock of being severed could kill someone, though I don't think it ever has. And I think... think Kreia's attack was a drain. It was Nihilus' Ka-me-ha-me-ha Death Attack of Doom that was the ambiguous one. Something about him feeding on or absorbing the sensation of mass death, the mass death itself caused by a drain of unknown statistical origins.

God I hate KotOR for that.

I think people take to much into Nihilus's ability. He used it on Kreia and it did not kill her only temporarily disable her use of the force. Someone more powerful than Kreia might be able to resist it. Even Sion resisted Nihilus attack.

That was cut content though, it's not canon. But yeah I still don't like Nihilus' attack, his giant version kills planets, but either it takes time to "charge" or he's just stupid. And his smaller version seems to suck, he didn't even try to take out Mandalore or Visas.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That was cut content though, it's not canon. But yeah I still don't like Nihilus' attack, his giant version kills planets, but either it takes time to "charge" or he's just stupid. And his smaller version seems to suck, he didn't even try to take out Mandalore or Visas. His "smaller version" crippled Traya and allowed Sion to physically beat her senseless, and he can't kill Visas because they have a Force-bond; that's why the player has the option to sacrifice Visas during the middle of the duel to further weaken Nihilus. If anything happens to her, he takes a big hit.

God, WHYNE MOHR.

Originally posted by Publius II
His "smaller version" crippled Traya and allowed Sion to physically beat her senseless, and he can't kill Visas because they have a Force-bond; that's why the player has the option to sacrifice Visas during the middle of the duel to further weaken Nihilus. If anything happens to her, he takes a big hit.

God, WHYNE MOHR. Say my name vain in again.

Did he actually use the Drain on Kreia? If you mean the cutscene, he doesn't seem to be doing much other than standing there. If it's some other place... I haven't played the game in a while. And I maintain that Nihilus is still a moron.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I think people take to much into Nihilus's ability.
Yes.

Originally posted by Kotor3
He used it on Kreia and it did not kill her only temporarily disable her use of the force.
Not so much. All we know is that he used a technique "against which there is no defense." It is very unlikely that he used his drain/sever deely, for the obvious reason that she did not die.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Someone more powerful than Kreia might be able to resist it. Even Sion resisted Nihilus attack.
I believe that that was cut content. Also, once again, it is unlikely that it was N's UBERLEATDRAINPWR attack because Sion did not die.

EDIT: My points apply to your arguments too, Faunus.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Say my name vain in again.

Did he actually use the Drain on Kreia? If you mean the cutscene, he doesn't seem to be doing much other than standing there. If it's some other place... I haven't played the game in a while. And I maintain that Nihilus is still a moron. Well, I don't know that it was "the Drain," but he certainly did something to her that rendered her unable to use the Force; it was either a technique that directly affected her connection to the Force or it was an extremely strong telekinetic attack. I mean, she couldn't pull off something - moving a lightsaber hilt - that a barely conscious neophyte Luke Skywalker managed to do while hanging upside down in an arctic cave with his face slashed open. Whatever Nihilus did was clearly effective.

In terms of lightsaber prowess, Maul and Dooku likely own the uglies.

In terms of Force power, Dooku pwns Sion. But Traya pwns Maul.

In my book, draining the life of three Jedi Masters simultaneously is pretty impressive.

You mean three no named jedi.

Nevermind the likes of Dooku's Force-prowess and Maul's endurance.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
In terms of Force power, Dooku pwns Sion.

Please substantiate that crap.

LOL. No.

You substantiate why is it crap.

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
LOL. No.

You substantiate why is it crap.

No man, don't give him an opening to cry about TEHBURDENZOFPROOF1111

It is an easy enough task: Dooku has been called 'One of the greatest Jedi in that order's 25000 year history' and 'an even greater Sith.'


Sion has never shown an offensive Force power. To my knowledge he can't even use FL. His only power we know of is his regenerative capabilities, which can be disrupted by Dun Moch. The Count excels at Dun Moch.


Problem solved.

I know. I just wanted to see what type of crap he came up with.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
No man, don't give him an opening to cry about TEHBURDENZOFPROOF1111

It is an easy enough task: Dooku has been called 'One of the greatest Jedi in that order's 25000 year history' and 'an even greater Sith.'

That's wonderful, now substantiate what being "one of the greatest" in a 25,000 year old, Galaxy wide organisation actually means. Does this put Dooku in the top 100? 1,000? Until you can actually quantify the statement, it means nothing in this scenario. Especially when it's made quite clear that Sion's a virtual anomaly, displaying abilities in the Force that are quite simply unprecedented. Dooku in comparison replicates feats that have been performed countless times before and after; his most notable ones usually involve using the Force to overpower distracted Jedi. Most overrated combatant in all of SW canon. By virtue of what Kreia and Sion have displayed, their command of the Force is lightyears beyond his.



Is there a point to this or can I label it an irrelevant misdirection?



Do you not mean he hasn't shown the ability to use it? Given that your average Sith apprentice of the era could summon it, it would be extremely unlikely that somebody with the position and experience of Sion was incapable of it. Not that he actually needs it. Was there actually a purpose in pointing out the minute possibility that he doesn't know it?



No, he can actively choose to disable his regenerative capabilities; all that Dun Moch has been shown to do (in a very specific and unique scenario involving individuals and circumstances of an intimate nature to Sion) is break his will to live - without that, he actively chose to let himself die.



Ignoring the fact that this statement clearly demands evidence, without any real history or connection to Sion, it's unlikely that there would be anything that could be said to break Sion's will in combat. Dooku has absolutely nothing on him; he could make fun of him but I'm guessing all that would do is piss him off.



In the immortal words of Darth Sex Therapy, "try again."

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
crap

^Copycat.

Stop copying me.

Nebaris, you have disabused me of the illusion that basic proficiency in the English language leads to improved thought patterns. While I find it difficult to admit that someone so clearly able to communicate can be so dense, I feel that I have no choice. Rejoice, for you have managed to do what Gideon couldn't: you have (mostly) cured me of Grammar Nazism. If such idiotic and thickheaded ideas can be communicated through (generally) correct English then maybe it is possible for good ideas to be presented in atrocious English. BOOG might have had the right idea- he was at least closer to the truth than you are.
Originally posted by Claude C. Kenny
That's wonderful, now substantiate what being "one of the greatest" in a 25,000 year old, Galaxy wide organisation actually means. Does this put Dooku in the top 100? 1,000? Until you can actually quantify the statement, it means nothing in this scenario. Especially when it's made quite clear that Sion's a virtual anomaly, displaying abilities in the Force that are quite simply unprecedented. Dooku in comparison replicates feats that have been performed countless times before and after; his most notable ones usually involve using the Force to overpower distracted Jedi. Most overrated combatant in all of SW canon. By virtue of what Kreia and Sion have displayed, their command of the Force is lightyears beyond his.
No.

Quite frankly, Sion has shown no command of the Force. He is able, by sheer force of will, to compel his body to continue operations. By all accounts (mostly Kreia) this is an instinctive technique. As such, it does not count as an indicator of Force mastery.

Kreia's Force mastery is clearly greater than Sion, but to what degree is impossible to tell. Her greatest (only?) feat is the murder of 3 no-name Jedi Masters with a Force Sever/Drain. That one accomplishment is not enough to put her near, let alone above, the level of Count Dooku.

The PT era has been described as 'the prime of the Jedi.' It contains masters like Depa Billaba, Kit Fisto, Yoda, and Mace Windu. By no stretch of the imagination are any of these characters weak, nor is there any question of their mastery over the Force. During this time period, Yoda, the Grandmaster of the Order and the 'most powerful Foe the Darkness had ever known' declared Count Dooku to be the strongest, best and most learned in the Force of all of the Jedi of the Clone Wars:

That you are attempting to cast doubt on Dooku's mastery shows just how strongly your bias (against a fictional character) influences your reasoning. I shudder to think what will happen in five or six years when you are old enough to vote.

Dooku has shown incredible mastery over the Dark side of the Force, even with his relatively short amount of training. Even if we were to ignore the multitude of accolades and praise from both in and out of universe sources, even you shouldn't be able to ignore feats:


Without any obvious effort Dooku is able to utterly neutralize Asajj Ventress, someone able to challenge (early) Anakin Skywalker and who was able to kill ~30 Jedi, including masters before the conclusion of the Clone Wars.


Really, you want to argue that this guy, the one who, only a few years ago, went toe to toe with Yoda is not as capable with the Force as a couple of no-name Sith head cases?

Originally posted by Claude C. Kenny

Is there a point to this or can I label it an irrelevant misdirection?
The point is that in a battle with two relative unknowns (Sion and Kreia) you have to work with what you've got. You've got nothing. Sion doesn't even use the Force offensively, let alone competently.

Originally posted by Claude C. Kenny

Do you not mean he hasn't shown the ability to use it? Given that your average Sith apprentice of the era could summon it, it would be extremely unlikely that somebody with the position and experience of Sion was incapable of it. Not that he actually needs it. Was there actually a purpose in pointing out the minute possibility that he doesn't know it?
Fact: Darth Sion has never shown the capability to use the technique 'Force Lightning' or, indeed, any type of Force Attack.
Speculation: Darth Sion can use Force Lightning just 'cause.

Which one seems like it cuts closer to the truth?

EDIT: Can someone check the video of Sion's escape from the Bacta tank in KotOR 2? That might have had a Force Choke...

Originally posted by Claude C. Kenny

No, he can actively choose to disable his regenerative capabilities; all that Dun Moch has been shown to do (in a very specific and unique scenario involving individuals and circumstances of an intimate nature to Sion) is break his will to live - without that, he actively chose to let himself die.
Did we play the same game? I seem to remember a long lightsaber duel during which the Exile had to talk Sion down using a 'lightside dun moch' that worked similarly to the Dark Side variant. But maybe that was just me.

Originally posted by Claude C. Kenny

Ignoring the fact that this statement clearly demands evidence, without any real history or connection to Sion, it's unlikely that there would be anything that could be said to break Sion's will in combat. Dooku has absolutely nothing on him; he could make fun of him but I'm guessing all that would do is piss him off.

Sounds like Dun Moch to me. Also, Wookieepedia classifies this as an instance of the technique.

Dooku is charismatic enough that his insight into other beings' desires/needs will allow him to break Sion's will. After all, that is what the technique does, and Dooku is very good at it.

Originally posted by Claude C. Kenny

In the immortal words of Darth Sex Therapy, "try again."
You aren't nearly as close to competence as he is, therefore you aren't allowed to use that.

Rofl. Good read RN

What exactly has sion done with the force? Right nothing! So how is that "utterly ridiculous"?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Well, this is factually false.
Agreed

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
And this is factually true. Darth Sion has never shown himself able to use the Force intentionally at all- his 'will to live' is an instinctive use of the Force. We don't actually have a case (that I know of) where he uses the Force intentionally, aggressively or otherwise.

Actually this is factually false. This instinctive use of the force (which is obviously a technique) as you call it has never been replicated to the degree that Sion did that I know of by anyone in the star wars universe. Sion could hold his own decomposing body together with the dark side of the Force. He is using the force all the time, if he stops he dies. How does that not show powerful command of the force? You make is sound as if could have been done by any force user.

You are referring to outward displays of force technqiues. Well, Sion was a Sith lord taught by Kreia who learned from the same place that Revan did. To say that Sion, just because you have not seen it, could not perform basic force techniques that were displayed by the Sith at that time is totally illogical.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Agreed



Actually this is factually false. This instinctive use of the force (which is obviously a technique) as you call it has never been replicated to the degree that Sion did that I know of by anyone in the star wars universe. Sion could hold his own decomposing body together with the dark side of the Force. He is using the force all the time, if he stops he dies. How does that not show powerful command of the force? You make is sound as if could have been done by any force user.

You are referring to outward displays of force technqiues. Well, Sion was a Sith lord taught by Kreia who learned from the same place that Revan did. To say that Sion, just because you have not seen it, could not perform basic force techniques that were displayed by the Sith at that time is totally illogical. By that exact same rationale, just because we think Sion may have known those techniques, doesn't mean he did. Even if we did, it being KotOR means there's no gauge.

Sion used a Force wave to break out of the Bacta tank. Take That Nemesis' beliefs!

Originally posted by Kotor3

You are referring to outward displays of force technqiues. Well, Sion was a Sith lord taught by Kreia who learned from the same place that Revan did. To say that Sion, just because you have not seen it, could not perform basic force techniques that were displayed by the Sith at that time is totally illogical. I think nemesis meant displaying force usasge beyond basic means(choking, using TK etc etc) and on a level that would rival dooku.

When was the last time that sion tooled a force user with one finger while ripping steel platforms apart?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
By that exact same rationale, just because we think Sion may have known those techniques, doesn't mean he did. Even if we did, it being KotOR means there's no gauge.

I can't argue with that line of thought. If everyone went by that logic we would have to take away from many characters within the stars wars universe.

Originally found in Yoda Dark Rendezvous
"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!"


"Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."

That you are attempting to cast doubt on Dooku's mastery shows just how strongly your bias (against a fictional character) influences your reasoning. I shudder to think what will happen in five or six years when you are old enough to vote.

Dooku has shown incredible mastery over the Dark side of the Force, even with his relatively short amount of training.

No. His feats are monumentally unremarkable. We see them repeated time and time again. People like Darth Bane, or Exar Kun, or Darth Sion, or Darth Traya, or Darth Nihilus, are people who've displayed a truly remarkable mastery over the dark side. They've all displayed unprecedented abilities of a huge scale. Dooku's feats are all street level, involving demonstrations of an entirely ordinary nature. Small scale regularly displayed feats do not put him on the same level of people like Traya and Sion. He's completely outclassed here.



Nobody is, the only person who's ignoring anything is you when I pointed out just how unquantifiable these out of universe accolades are. Here, I'll post it again for you:

That's wonderful, now substantiate what being "one of the greatest" in a 25,000 year old, Galaxy wide organisation actually means. Does this put Dooku in the top 100? 1,000? Until you can actually quantify the statement, it means nothing in this scenario.



Without any obvious effort Dooku is able to utterly neutralize Asajj Ventress, someone able to challenge (early) Anakin Skywalker and who was able to kill ~30 Jedi, including masters before the conclusion of the Clone Wars.

Well this has got to be a first. I don't even know what to label it, it appears to be a combination of a One Sided Assessment Fallacy and a Fallacy of Division. I'm gonna call it the One Sided Assessment Fallacy of Division.

First off, Dooku attacks Assaj at a moment's notice without any warning or justification, meaning that it's probable that her defences weren't up and ready, in which case she would have been - for all intents and purposes - defenceless in the situation. It would be the equivalent of overpowering a random non Force-Sensitive thug with the Force.

Secondly, Assaj's ability and deadliness as a lightsaber duelist =/= her ability with and how effectively she can defend herself with the Force. Her Force ability only makes up a part of her overall effectiveness as a lightsaber combatant (and even then it manifests itself in speed and strength and reflexes and such, hardly perfectly testament to how effectively she can defend herself with it), and to assert that her overall deadliness with a lightsaber (the whole) is testament to her ability with the Force (a part) would be a Fallacy of Division.

Originally found in Revenge of the Sith (novelization):
Chairs leapt up from the situation table and whirled toward Anakin's head. He slashed the first one in half contemptuously, but the second caught him across the knees and the third battered his shoulder and knocked him down.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

It's a good thing that that entire scene completely contradicts the movie's depiction then, isn't it? The novelisation is secondary by nature, if it contradicts the movies, it gets retconned. And that's exactly what it does in this case. That entire quote is completely inadmissible as evidence.



If you're referring to Kreia and Sion, then yes, he's not even close. As I said, until he displays anything that isn't entirely ordinary or beyond a street scale, all available evidence would suggest that he's nowhere near two beings who've not only displayed ability on a massive scale, but of a completely unprecedented nature.



No. In the face of the unknown, you logically deduce that what's up for question remains fully consistent with what we already know. Sion, a Dark Lord of the Sith with an enormous knowledge base to work with (Malachor V, a planet sized storehouse of information), who's minions were capable of offensive Force powers, is almost assuredly going to be able to use the Force offensively. There's literally a 0.001% chance he wouldn't be able to, and we can use Occam's Razor to rule that minute possibility out given the subjective nature of these versus fights.



Again, Sion's minions and random newbies at the Sith Academy were capable of using the attack. Given how relatively basic the attack is, and his position among the Sith and his access to knowledge, it would be absolutely ridiculous to assume that he wasn't capable of using it.



He uses Force telekinesis explosion.

Alright clearly you're having trouble getting this. What I was saying was that Dun Moch itself does not disrupt the ability. In The Exile's case, it allowed her to erode Sion's will, in which case he actively chose to die. That's it. Dun Moch has no direct effect on Sion's ability.



Sounds like Dun Moch to me. Also, Wookieepedia classifies this as an instance of the technique.

For the less accomplished readers:

Jolly Jim: The Count excels at Dun Moch.

Claude C. Kenny: Ignoring the fact that this statement clearly demands evidence

The assertion that he excels at it demands evidence. All that you provided evidence of is that Dooku's capable of a taunt that somebody with the creative and perceptive mind of a ten year old could come up with. As the passage itself states, "a simple taunt was all that had been required" - it outright labels the taunt as a "simple" one and that as much was "all that had been required". The point wasn't so much about the Count's ability with Dun Moch but rather how easy it was to unbalance Anakin's frame of mind.



Except he possesses no insight into Sion's desires/needs, and his purported charisma isn't capable of exploiting what he doesn't even know about.



No, what it does is upset the balance of an opponent's state of mind; in Sion's case, in a very specific and unique situation involving circumstances of a very intimate nature, it resulted in him giving up the will to live. However, that is not what the technique naturally does, and Dooku is in no position to replicate what The Exile was capable of.



Because he can play mind games with an emotionally disturbed moron? Again, the assertion that Dooku is "very good" or "excels" at it demands proof, which you've failed miserably at providing.


Also, because you ignored it, in big letters: without any real history or connection to Sion, it's unlikely that there would be anything that could be said to break Sion's will in combat. Dooku has absolutely nothing on him; he could make fun of him but I'm guessing all that would do is piss him off.

Nobody cares Noobaris

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nobody cares Noobaris

QFT

That's just stupid of you.

I just wanted to say this to Neb: "You tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try."

For the final time, ignore Nebaris. He relies on misdirection, lies, and double standards. Do not respond to any of his arguments. Period.

Edit: Dooku and Maul tool the shit out of Traya and Sion for reasons already mentioned, but if Traya is allowed use of her 'instakill', she would likely win the Force competition. As for Dooku's proficiency at Dun Moch, it's been pretty much mentioned in every damn source in which he's been featured. He's unleashed it against Anakin Skywalker on three occasions, Obi-Wan Kenobi twice, Asajj Ventress, etc. The Count is legendary for charisma, which is only enhanced with his impressive command of the Force.

You can't tell me what to do ! I will do it though.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
You can't tell me what to do ! I will do it though.

By responding to him in perpetuity, you give him the "victory" he seeks. Deep within him, he recognizes that he's unable to apply basic logic without twisting it and contorting it into the double standards that meet his ends. Nebaris subscribes to the publicist's code: there's no such thing as bad publicity. Due to overabundant time and a lackluster social life, he's dedicated to becoming something of repute on the forums for tenacity and feigned arrogance. Using phrases and expressions like "gangster", "the man", and other shit that aren't funny in the slightest. He isn't witty, he isn't a skilled debater.

All he wants is attention. Own him once, and if he disagrees, simply ignore him. Period. The end. Don't be idiots and fall into his trap.

So it has been written, so it shall be done.

You did kick his ass fairly hard, though, Red.

I may even start to feel sorry for him.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I may even start to feel sorry for him.

Pity is good, empathy as well, but don't give him mercy. The ban should be upheld and there simply isn't any way out for him- this is the life he chose.