Mortat Kombat vs Marvel

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American Dragon
Shang Tsuang vs Dr. Strange
Jax vs Doc Ock
Baraka vs Venom
Sub-Zero vs Iceman
Sonya Blade vs Elektra
Liu Kang vs Daredevil
Scorpion vs Ghost Rider
Kano vs Cyclops
Raiden vs Silver Surfer
Kitana vs The Prowler

Magee
Raiden vs Silver Surfer? laughing out loud

masterpiece
How about Spider-man in it like versing Johnny Cage. And have Wolverine vs. Baraka instead, as well Elektra vs. Kitana or Li Mei, and Doc Ock vs. Goro, and also have the Thor vs. Shao Kahn. Ooh and Blade vs. Natara (that vampire from Mortal Kombat) smile

masterpiece
Human Torch vs. Blaze and the Vision vs.l Cyborg and the Lizard vs. Reptile and still have Venom in there, I just can't think of who he should verse.

jinzin
Originally posted by American Dragon
Shang Tsuang vs Dr. Strange
Strange

Originally posted by American Dragon
Jax vs Doc Ock
Depends on which version.
Regular Jax probably gets owned. Cybernetic Jax would most likely curb Ock.

Originally posted by American Dragon
Baraka vs Venom Venom. Though if it was Gargon, it'd be a good fight.


Originally posted by American Dragon
Sub-Zero vs Iceman Iceman
Originally posted by American Dragon
Sonya Blade vs Elektra Elektra
Originally posted by American Dragon
Liu Kang vs Daredevil Lui Kang .
Originally posted by American Dragon
Scorpion vs Ghost Rider stalemate
Originally posted by American Dragon
Kano vs Cyclops Cyk
Originally posted by American Dragon
Raiden vs Silver Surfer Dunno. Depends on if Surfer can manip Raiden's energy.
Originally posted by American Dragon
Kitana vs The Prowler Kitana, she's vastly more powerful.

Apolloknight
Originally posted by Magee
Raiden vs Silver Surfer? laughing out loud

Raidens a hella lot more powerful then the games show you. Dont know if he is Surfer level, but he is no chump.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Raidens a hella lot more powerful then the games show you. Dont know if he is Surfer level, but he is no chump.

Maybe buy he still has little to no chance against surfer.

jinzin
Originally posted by Naija boy
Maybe buy he still has little to no chance against surfer. based on what?

ThunderGodEneru
Other than the fact that Surfer is faster, stronger, more durable, more powerful, and more versatile?

jinzin
okay.. once again based on what?

Naija boy
Originally posted by jinzin
based on what?

ThunderGodEneru
Originally posted by jinzin
okay.. once again based on what? What they have done. no expression

Raiden is HUMAN in speed based on his fighting vids, he is not even class 10 in strength, he has been hurt by attacks of less than class 10, he can manipulate lightning(NOT versatile), and has never even destroyed a planet in canon.

jinzin
Originally posted by Naija boy
you're not quite getting it are you. You need to prove unsupported claims to make them valid, just stating them over and over is Ad nauseum not an argument.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
What they have done. no expression

Raiden is HUMAN in speed based on his fighting vids, he is not even class 10 in strength, he has been hurt by attacks of less than class 10, he can manipulate lightning(NOT versatile), and has never even destroyed a planet in canon.

What they have done... hm, Well you see there's a bit of a contradiction between Raiden in game and in canon.
Raiden in canon may not have destroyed a planet, but he was stated to be strong enough to do so whilst fighting on it.
It's because of Raiden's fight with Shinnok that the Ice Age happened. Keeping in mind he was fighting to protect the planet and that he was a newborn god at the time it took place, that's pretty impressive.

He's never been hurt by class 10 strength, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there and his speed is enough to contend with other fast superhuman combatants while in mortal form. Contrary to what people think, SS does not fight with the speed of the flash, or even that of quick silver. His h2h skills are atroceous. His traveling speed is incredible, but so what? Raiden's a teleporter, I hardly see an advantage there.

When it comes to sheer power, strength, and durability. All of those are fairly open ended so it's quite hard to give any legitimate answers regardless of fan association or speculative reasoning. Raiden "should be" close to Surfer in every regard, but there's really no proof that he is aside from a few things and most of it hyporbolic. On the other hand his true limits while as a god have never been seen with the exception of being beaten by the spawn of an elder god.

It's of worthy note that DC felt well enough of Raiden to pit him against Supes in their finale, but given the stroyline that might not also mean much.

I don't care if you guys think Surfer wins, but stating that he's stronger, blah blah blah is really unsupported by any legitimate proof.
Who'd win in a fight is an open ended question indeed.

Though I do agree SS is more versatile.

Naija boy
Well i hardly thought it was a debatable point but ill certainly prove it.





Unlike raiden, SS has actually easily destroyed a planet while holding back. As well as created blackholes as aftereffects of his energy blasts. Far more impressive than anything Raiden has ever actually done or come close to doing.



SS does not fight like flash in the sense that he does not attack physically at high speeds. ( though as weve seen against nova who has FTL refelexes he is easily capable of such). He however has shown that he can launch attacks(blasts) at superspeeds while on his board. His h2h skills are irrelevant in this match as there is no logical reason for SS to get into a purely h2h confrontation with Raiden. Even then he has a huge strength advantage ( overpowered the hulk and multiple others) and and even greater durability advantage. ( fought inside blackhole while weakened, survived supernovas unscathed, taken numerous attacks from galactus level beings etc). further in battle SS actually has been able to actually react ahead of and operate faster than teleportation.





The evidence of SS power output durability and strength is there. If Raiden has no concrete feats comparable to such then by forum rules he loses badly.




Actually saying raiden is comparable to surfer in many ways is what is completely unsupported by any proof. On the forum we use feats when debating characters. Raiden has no feats to put him on SS level period.

iceman24567
Marvel takes a majority. I dont know if Surfer is more powerful than Raiden but I think Surfer would win.

jinzin
Originally posted by Naija boy
Unlike raiden, SS has actually easily destroyed a planet while holding back. As well as created blackholes as aftereffects of his energy blasts. Far more impressive than anything Raiden has ever actually done or come close to doing. The implication is and has been since MK I that Raiden ciertainly has the means to do the same and the only reason he didn't while fighting Shinnok was because he was trying to protect it. Once again, the goal is not to destroy the planet so it's fairly impressive given that it was a younger weaker version of Raiden.



Originally posted by Naija boy
SS does not fight like flash in the sense that he does not attack physically at high speeds. ( though as weve seen against nova who has FTL refelexes he is easily capable of such). He however has shown that he can launch attacks(blasts) at superspeeds while on his board. True. And I would not argue otherwise.

Originally posted by Naija boy
His h2h skills are irrelevant in this match as there is no logical reason for SS to get into a purely h2h confrontation with Raiden. True.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Even then he has a huge strength advantage ( overpowered the hulk and multiple others) That's a baseless assumption on your part, though little evidence exists for Raiden's sheer strength level, no limited has ever been suggested for the character which makes this impossible to determine.

Originally posted by Naija boy
and and even greater durability advantage. ( fought inside blackhole while weakened, survived supernovas unscathed, taken numerous attacks from galactus level beings etc). further in battle SS actually has been able to actually react ahead of and operate faster than teleportation. I agree to the durability point, but it's once again a baseless assumption. If Raiden is fighting at a planet busting level as a newborn one assumes him to have an incredibly high level of durability.

Scans?

Originally posted by Naija boy
The evidence of SS power output durability and strength is there. If Raiden has no concrete feats comparable to such then by forum rules he loses badly. That's just it. There's hardly any evidene to support Raiden. going by games, he's strong enough to bust planets, that much is certain, and his fight with Shao Khan in MKIIIU caused all of outworld to quake, which is hundreds of planets amalgamated together. If the comics are any indication to his power he was able to rip through demensional walls with little effort. There's never been a stated limit to his power output and that's a problem, because we know he's powerful, but we don't know just how powerful.




Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually saying raiden is comparable to surfer in many ways is what is completely unsupported by any proof. On the forum we use feats when debating characters. Raiden has no feats to put him on SS level period. What I said, was, Raiden "Should be"....
That's ideal.
As to if he is, well that's, as I stated an open ended question.

I disagree. I would say flying from his pantheon around the world before Kano could surface from water is an incredible speed feat.
Causing a storm that spread across outworld is an incredible feat while weakened.
ripping through demensional walls, planet busting and outworld quaking are all extremely powerful feats that cosmics do on the daily. So he "should be" around Surfer's level. The only thing is that the game canon doesn't give us much to work with.

What you CAN argue is against his lack of feats, which is fine but you can't keep stating that Surfer better period. Because it's not that simple. He's better until Raiden has similar feats maybe but at the same time we've never seen Raiden's limit to his power at an all out level seeing as the only time he ever went all out was against Shao Khan while he was weakening due to the outworld merger. no expression

So as I asked, based on what. Because it's not Raiden's limitations, but your speculation of them. And that's fine, I just want you to know that.

Naija boy
Originally posted by jinzin
The implication is and has been since MK I that Raiden ciertainly has the means to do the same and the only reason he didn't while fighting Shinnok was because he was trying to protect it. Once again, the goal is not to destroy the planet so it's fairly impressive given that it was a younger weaker version of Raiden.


Concrete feats hold far more sway than off panel occurences. There is way too much context and circumstances which we are unaware of when things happen off panel. SS has actually shown that his full power output is considerably superior to planet busting.



While i understand that no limit has been suggested regarding raidens strength, since he is being compared with another person, we have no choice but to go by what the actually have accomplished and using that Surfer far greater than raiden



In some respect yes it is an assumption but im am basing it on the two characters respective feats. Yes raiden may not have alot to go on and due to that it is probably difficult to determine his true power level. However because in this case he is being compared to another character, the only way to come to a conclusion is to refer to the feats both of them have performed. Raiden supposedly fighting at planet busting level is nice and all but it still does not give us enough info to place his durability close to surfer level . Fighting inside a blackhole and flyin thru stars are feats that are far superior.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6231/silversurfer198902312rp5.jpg

Note this is while he is actually off his board. He is able to calculate the trajectory of a being in midteleportation and attack it on its arrival.(example of surfers uber mental processing speed)





As i said its unfortunate that he doesnt have enough feats for us to really guage his power level. However until he does in a forum fight he has no chance againstt surfer at all.





this hardly puts him on surfer level speed wise. Surfer has searched all of earth before Dr strange could complete a sentence, Travelled to evry capital city on the planet in a second or two, flown five hundred thousand light years in a few seconds etc.




Creating blackholes due to his energy output,outpowering mephisto in his own realm, deactivating all the machines on earth, evolving planets billions of years and many other surfer feats trump the few feats that raiden has. The fact is that based on his accomplished feats raiden actually cant do very much to surfer while based on those same feats surfer can do a whole lot to him.



And that is what i AM arguing against. Due to Raidens lack of feats( the conclusive evidence used in forum fights) i can comfortably say that on KMC he loses badly to surfer until he has the concrete feats to show otherwise.





True it is based on my assumption of raidens limitations based on the feats he has accomplished. Are those his true limitations? I dont know and really dont care. But in regards to who would win a match between he and surfer on KMC, its definitely surfer until raiden accomplishes the feats to prove otherwise.

Kris Blaze
My MK-fanboy sense is tingling.

Jynocidus
Marvel curb stomps with a Rulk foot

jinzin
Originally posted by Naija boy
Concrete feats hold far more sway than off panel occurences. There is way too much context and circumstances which we are unaware of when things happen off panel. SS has actually shown that his full power output is considerably superior to planet busting. Isn't that basically what I'm trying to explain to you? confused

Originally posted by Naija boy
While i understand that no limit has been suggested regarding raidens strength, since he is being compared with another person, we have no choice but to go by what the actually have accomplished and using that Surfer far greater than raiden Uh... I get that... As I said, you can make the argument that Surfer's feats> Raiden until proven otherwise. But you can't make baseless assumptions that he's stronger, faster, more powerful etc etc when Raien's never capped out his limits. You can only argue "until proven otherwise".


Originally posted by Naija boy
In some respect yes it is an assumption but im am basing it on the two characters respective feats. Yes raiden may not have alot to go on and due to that it is probably difficult to determine his true power level. However because in this case he is being compared to another character, the only way to come to a conclusion is to refer to the feats both of them have performed. Raiden supposedly fighting at planet busting level is nice and all but it still does not give us enough info to place his durability close to surfer level . Fighting inside a blackhole and flyin thru stars are feats that are far superior. Once again, it's still a baseless assumption seeing how we've never seen Raiden's limitations... If a character is strong enough to show he's class 100 without effort. It's possible/probable that he might be a 100+ ton lifter too. Without any known limitations it's hard to estimate WHAT a character is capible of. In that regard you can't keep making baseless claims about them. All you can argue is using until proven otherwise arguments... Which is fine.


Originally posted by Naija boy
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6231/silversurfer198902312rp5.jpg. He saw which way the guy was moving while starting his teleporting. pretty crappy teleport.

Originally posted by Naija boy
As i said its unfortunate that he doesnt have enough feats for us to really guage his power level. However until he does in a forum fight he has no chance againstt surfer at all. Based on your assumptions about his unknown limitations. no expression

Originally posted by Naija boy
this hardly puts him on surfer level speed wise. Surfer has searched all of earth before Dr strange could complete a sentence, Travelled to evry capital city on the planet in a second or two, flown five hundred thousand light years in a few seconds etc. fair enough.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Creating blackholes due to his energy output,outpowering mephisto in his own realm, deactivating all the machines on earth, evolving planets billions of years and many other surfer feats trump the few feats that raiden has. The fact is that based on his accomplished feats raiden actually cant do very much to surfer while based on those same feats surfer can do a whole lot to him.. Mephisto's been beaten by the proffesor Hulk in his own real with one punch, by Black Panther, and a couple other mid level heroes iirc. That's not really that impressive. erm
I'm not sure how deactivating all the machines on earth means he's more powerful than raiden. confused
though the black hole feat is impressive.

Originally posted by Naija boy
And that is what i AM arguing against. Due to Raidens lack of feats( the conclusive evidence used in forum fights) i can comfortably say that on KMC he loses badly to surfer until he has the concrete feats to show otherwise. .. But that's not how you represented your argument. You just flat out stated that he was faster, stronger, etc etc.. When no evidence really exists to make that concrete. He's faster by comparitive feats, stronger because of his feats of strength. But it's not because of Raiden's known limitations.





Originally posted by Naija boy
True it is based on my assumption of raidens limitations based on the feats he has accomplished. Are those his true limitations? I dont know and really dont care. But in regards to who would win a match between he and surfer on KMC, its definitely surfer until raiden accomplishes the feats to prove otherwise. You should care because it DOES matter. you can't conclusively state a winner of the fight if you don't understand their limitations, you can quage a speculatory one but that's really all you can do. I'll accept the fact that you don't think Raiden can win based on his lack of feats. But nothing about your first statement on the matter is conclusive... at all.

jinzin
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
My MK-fanboy sense is tingling. How the hell is it fanboyism to state facts?

The way he was arguing was engaged in a logical fallacy. You can't make baseless statements about such matters when there's nothing conclusive to support them.

I'm Bran
Originally posted by jinzin
Mephisto's been beaten by the proffesor Hulk in his own real with one punch, by Black Panther, and a couple other mid level heroes iirc. That's not really that impressive. erm
Mephisto was in a church at the time, and that was said to be a reason he was powerless in the Hulk feat.
BP depowered him through prep in Wakanda.
He hasn't really. I mean, off the top of my head, Adam Warlock due to him absorbing souls in the millions of souls place of Meph, and Thor by being a terrible plot device.

Either way, Hulk and Ironclad (yes, Ironclad) were also said to have rocked a dimension as well.
And in what way did Shinnok and Raiden cause an Ice Age?
And implications of planet busting don't compare to Surfer easily crushing a planet in an attempt to teach Ravenous a leason. erm

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
My MK-fanboy sense is tingling. What was said?

Naija boy
No i didnt get that from ur arguments




No i dont think u do. Evrything i am arguing is based on the conditions of the forum. So me saying surfer is stronger faster more powerful etc is entirely correct within forum conditions. I dont care if raiden has never capped out his limits cuz within the context and conditions of this forum fight, surfer is far superior to him. (If u feel like u can add until proven otherwise)



U see, thats all we can really do with raiden: make assumptions. He doesnt have enough feats to really establish his powerlevel. The few feats he does have, certainly dont put him on surfers level. Further the powerlevel of raiden used on KMC wont be that which he might have but has never shown but will instead be based on what he has achieved. And regarding that surfer is far superior to him all round





Yes surfer saw his energy residue from his teleportation and used it to calculate the trajectory of where he would appear. It doesnt take away from the fact that it was teleportation and that surfer was able to react to it while off his board.



No on the forum we take into account on panel evidence and not vague and unproven potential. If raiden has the feats to match surfer then he will be put on that level, if he doesnt then he simply wont. The fact is he doesnt. end of story







Scans and context of the professor hulk and black panther incident? Cuz im almost sure that it had to do with mephisto not really fighting them but instead using trying to put them in some scheme for their souls. And the deactivating all earths machinery and is an example of global matter manipulation. He basically took away all the energy from earth as well as manipulated the planets photons in order to create perpatual darkness.



I didnt know i needed to mention it but just to make it clear my argument was made in regards to the KMC environment. Which in essence is based on their cocmparative feats. I have no desire to get into discussions about raidens potential which has never been shown.







Actually on KMC it DOESNT matter at all. I can certainly conclusively state a winner here based on his feats. If Raiden is put in fights on KMC all we can do is base his power level off the feats he has accomplished. As i said my first statement on the matter was based on raidens accomplished feats and hence it is very valid on KMC.

Naija boy
Originally posted by jinzin
How the hell is it fanboyism to state facts?

The way he was arguing was engaged in a logical fallacy. You can't make baseless statements about such matters when there's nothing conclusive to support them.

Actually i wasnt engaged in any sort of fallacy at all. It was perfectly logical and infact the ONLY way t determine a winner in a forum match. Fallacious reasoning would be having Raiden involved in matches and basing his entire performance in said match off abilities he has not displayed. Heck the situation can be related to multiple other characters. Neither the hulk nor superman nor thor have really ever shown a limit to what they are able to lift. However in determining the strongest of the three on KMC, we would use the feats they had actually performed. Hence a statement such as " Superman is the strongest out of the three" or "hulk is the strongest out of the three" would be perfectly acceptable as long as it is supported by the feats they have accomplished.

Silent Guardian
Jax wins. Than besides that Liu Kang and Kitana are the only other ones who could win on MK side. Besides them Marvel stomps.

jinzin
Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually i wasnt engaged in any sort of fallacy at all. It was perfectly logical and infact the ONLY way t determine a winner in a forum match. Fallacious reasoning would be having Raiden involved in matches and basing his entire performance in said match off abilities he has not displayed. Heck the situation can be related to multiple other characters. Neither the hulk nor superman nor thor have really ever shown a limit to what they are able to lift. However in determining the strongest of the three on KMC, we would use the feats they had actually performed. Hence a statement such as " Superman is the strongest out of the three" or "hulk is the strongest out of the three" would be perfectly acceptable as long as it is supported by the feats they have accomplished.
"Actually" you WERE/ARE. no expression


You need to bone up on fallacies.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam
Argumentum ad logicam
and Argumentum ad nauseam are all part of what you've been spewing here.

In any case, I don't really feel like continuing to rail this into the dirt as I actually agree that Surfer wins. The point is simply that you can't determine a winner based on Surfer being "stronger faster, more powerful"... etc etc... because that's not true. He has the better feats. But Raiden doesn't really have feats much less ones that are clear which is why it's such an open ended question.

When it comes to what he does have: Planet busting and demension ripping are certainly feats that would put Raiden within the tier range of SS considering how easily he's described as doing them. Does SS have better feats than that? Sure, but does that mean Raiden couldn't do something of SS level? No because we've never seen his limit.... However, since negative's can't be proven I understand and agree with your sentiment, just not the way you're representing it. I thought I was clearer about this in my other post but I can see how you missed it. I read the other post and you're practically stating what I'm trying to communicate to you in the first place (lol) so I won't continue to pester you about this but I don't agree that you can state a conclusive winner between these two as much as you can an argueable one.

jinzin
Originally posted by I'm Bran
Mephisto was in a church at the time, and that was said to be a reason he was powerless in the Hulk feat.
BP depowered him through prep in Wakanda.
He hasn't really. I mean, off the top of my head, Adam Warlock due to him absorbing souls in the millions of souls place of Meph, and Thor by being a terrible plot device.

Either way, Hulk and Ironclad (yes, Ironclad) were also said to have rocked a dimension as well.
And in what way did Shinnok and Raiden cause an Ice Age?
And implications of planet busting don't compare to Surfer easily crushing a planet in an attempt to teach Ravenous a leason. erm Ripped through demensional barriors?
It doesn't say. All that's been stated was Raiden was trying to protec earthrealm, the result of their battle caused the ice age (I'm guessing from the destruction thereafter) and at some point ripped a demensional hole where Reptiles race fled into Zaterra from Earth.

Naija boy
Originally posted by jinzin
"Actually" you WERE/ARE. no expression


You need to bone up on fallacies.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam
Argumentum ad logicam
and Argumentum ad nauseam are all part of what you've been spewing here.

In any case, I don't really feel like continuing to rail this into the dirt as I actually agree that Surfer wins. The point is simply that you can't determine a winner based on Surfer being "stronger faster, more powerful"... etc etc... because that's not true. He has the better feats. But Raiden doesn't really have feats much less ones that are clear which is why it's such an open ended question.

When it comes to what he does have: Planet busting and demension ripping are certainly feats that would put Raiden within the tier range of SS considering how easily he's described as doing them. Does SS have better feats than that? Sure, but does that mean Raiden couldn't do something of SS level? No because we've never seen his limit.... However, since negative's can't be proven I understand and agree with your sentiment, just not the way you're representing it. I thought I was clearer about this in my other post but I can see how you missed it. I read the other post and you're practically stating what I'm trying to communicate to you in the first place (lol) so I won't continue to pester you about this but I don't agree that you can state a conclusive winner between these two as much as you can an argueable one.

I know perfectly well logical fallacies are and within the context of how power levels are determined on KMC, im my argument isnt falling into any at all. You keep saying that i cant conclusively state that surfer is faster, stronger, more powerful etc. The thing is that within the context of battle in this forum i actually can because feats are the supreme evidence used. Within the KMC environment and context, saying that surfer is faster stronger and more powerful than raiden is acceptable because its underlying meaning is that surfer has superior feats to raiden in all these departments. Go to KMCs tier system and u will see that powerlevels are determined to some extent thru powersets but mostly thru the characters accomplsihed feats.

Maybe i shud put it like this, A conclusive winner in actuality cant be decided between raiden and SS because raidens limits havent been tested as u said. However a conclusive KMC winner can be determined because that would be determined by the characters respective feats.

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