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Who wins?

1. Saber
2. Force
3. All Out

Considering the duels Ventress has fought, won, and survived, Zannah doesn't stand a chance in the first category, and will lose the third if she fails to eliminate her opponent with the Force quickly. The second category is probably a little more in her favor, however; as an untrained ten year-old, she telekinetically snapped the necks of two Jedi in a fit of rage. After a decade of Bane's tutelage, I imagine she'd be capable of far more, and her Sith techniques will certainly be completely alien to Ventress.

That said, if we use the CWC, Ventress is capable of hurling tree trunks, tiles, and pillars the size of automobiles at Skywalker on the fly. She appears to be by far the more cunning and efficient combatant, and nearly crushed the heart of a centuries-old and extremely powerful Jedi Master while lying on the ground barely conscious. I'd say this one could go either way, too, but to be honest I'm leaning towards a sweep for Ventress.

Does Zannah's duel with Saro mean so little? Her Soresu would have to be at a reasonably high level to contend with a monster like him. On top of his physical bulk he had a strong mastery of the blade, having devoted his life to Weapons Mastery.

With that exception of that one objection, I fully agree with your assesment, although I'd call the all out section closer than you gave Zannah credit for. She will have to be a smart fighter to have a chance of killing Bane.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Does Zannah's duel with Saro mean so little? Her Soresu would have to be at a reasonably high level to contend with a monster like him. On top of his physical bulk he had a strong mastery of the blade, having devoted his life to Weapons Mastery.Obi-Wan's Soresu qualifies as "reasonably high." Anakin's Djem So qualifies as "reasonably high." Ventress gave both of them fits. Skywalker couldn't defeat her without calling on the dark side in either of their duels.

And IIRC, Zannah only lasted as long as she did because Johun was constantly getting in Sarro's way, and Sarro himself was being amped up by Worror's battle meditation. Those two outside factors make it difficult to analyze either Zannah's or Sarro's respective skills based on that duel alone. Zannah's one duel where there were no outside factors influencing the outcome was against an enraged Bane, and while no one can hold it against her, she got demolished.

What someone will be is irrelevant. Otherwise, Anakin wins everything.

Originally posted by Publius II

What someone will be is irrelevant. Otherwise, Anakin wins everything.

O....k?


Given that we know that she kills Bane, don't we know that she is a smart fighter?


In retrospect, maybe this thread shouldn't have been made until the next Bane book is released.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Given that we know that she kills Bane, don't we know that she is a smart fighter?


Has it been canonically stated how? I mean, she could have killed him in his sleep or somthin'...

Exactly. We need to wait for the next book to determine the details of his death on Zannah's hands.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
O....k?

Given that we know that she kills Bane, don't we know that she is a smart fighter?... No.

We have no idea how she kills Bane. As Blax pointed out, she might have killed him in his sleep. She might have poisoned him, had him blown up ala Valorum, etc. I was being lenient in going along with your postulation that she would kill Bane in direct combat, but I didn't think you'd make the completely baseless assumption that she had to be and was as of RoT an extraordinarily cunning combatant.

I assumed you were using Zannah as of RoT, not the future version of the character of which we know nothing.

Well, I can't explain why it made sense (even to myself) but I was operating on the idea that one does not change significantly with age, so Zannah's 'cleverness' would be just as accessible now as in 5 or ten or however many years. It was idiotic, but there you go.


So to recap:
I am an idiot.

Next up for discussion:
How much farther ahead in Force power is Ventress when compared to Zannah? (I don't know much about Ventress so extra info is always good.)

Originally posted by Publius II

And IIRC, Zannah only lasted as long as she did because Johun was constantly getting in Sarro's way, and Sarro himself was being amped up by Worror's battle meditation. Those two outside factors make it difficult to analyze either Zannah's or Sarro's respective skills based on that duel alone. Zannah's one duel where there were no outside factors influencing the outcome was against an enraged Bane, and while no one can hold it against her, she got demolished.


At the start of the fight yes, Zannah herself acknowledges that Johun is getting in the way and is benefitting her. She even notes that Johun's presence allows her to ward off their attacks easily. However about half-way through Johun leaves to help the others and it's just Zannah vs Sarro. Now Sarro-

* Was bigger and stronger than Bane.
* Had devoted his life to Weapon Mastery (as pointed out) and his Master was the best duellist of her day.
* Was said to be fast enough to "snatch a fly from the air."
* Had his Force powers boosted by Battle Meditation.

Even after Johun left, she was able to fend him off for a while. Now Zannah herself states that it was pushing her skills to the limit, but still, not being cut down instantly by someone who has all that going for him and managing to hold him off for even a few minutes is pretty impressive.

Now I agree that in a 'pure' weapons fight Asajj would win, but it won't be as easy as falling off a log.

Wasn't it because of a Johun distraction(him pushing Warro and Sorro turning to see what had happened) that caused Zannah to use sith sorcery to kill Sorro anyway. And I'm pretty sure that there wasn't more then half way through the duel.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Wasn't it because of a Johun distraction(him pushing Warro and Sorro turning to see what had happened) that caused Zannah to use sith sorcery to kill Sorro anyway. And I'm pretty sure that there wasn't more then half way through the duel.

Yeah, but prior to that distraction Zannah was fending Sarro off on only her own merits.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Now I agree that in a 'pure' weapons fight Asajj would win, but it won't be as easy as falling off a log. I apologize if I insinuated that the duel would be easy for Ventress, but Zannah simply will not win. She stands a much better chance in the Force-only category because of her vastly superior knowledge of arcane techniques and her own considerable raw power, but even that one's a toss-up.

Originally posted by Publius II
I apologize if I insinuated that the duel would be easy for Ventress, but Zannah simply will not win. She stands a much better chance in the Force-only category because of her vastly superior knowledge of arcane techniques and her own considerable raw power, but even that one's a toss-up.

No problem.

Are we forgetting Sith Sorcery? She freaked out the weapon master and killed him. Whose to say that she pulled that trick against Ventress?

1. Sarro was not a Weapons Master.
2. She pulled it off only when Sarro made the impossibly stupid error of turning around in a fight.

I'm not denying Sarro was great, but let's not forget Zannah was not going to win that fight. Sarro was stealing her mobility, he was throwing her off completely and he was just about to kill her. And as good as Zannah's Soresu is, Ventress has faced Obi-wan, the undisputed king of Soresu and driven him to his limits. Zannah has not displayed the proficiency or mastery with Soresu Obi-wan has, nor can she be comfortably capable of taking on the best swordsmen the Jedi have to offer yet.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Sarro was not a Weapons Master.
2. She pulled it off only when Sarro made the impossibly stupid error of turning around in a fight.

I'm not denying Sarro was great, but let's not forget Zannah was not going to win that fight. Sarro was stealing her mobility, he was throwing her off completely and he was just about to kill her. And as good as Zannah's Soresu is, Ventress has faced Obi-wan, the undisputed king of Soresu and driven him to his limits. Zannah has not displayed the proficiency or mastery with Soresu Obi-wan has, nor can she be comfortably capable of taking on the best swordsmen the Jedi have to offer yet.

For the most part I agree. There are two points I'd like to make though;

1. I admit I'm not sure about this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Obi-Wan only achieved his 'de Soresu Master' level towards the end of the Clone Wars (by the time of RotS) and that when he fought Ventress he hadn't yet reached that level.

2. "She pulled it off only when Sarro made the impossibly stupid error of turning around in a fight."

True. However it does show that Zannah can execute the "nightmarish hallucinations mind whammy" very quickly.

I'm wondering, if she can put some distance between them, could she then pull off the mind whammy and use it to distract Ventress long enough to land the finishing blow?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
For the most part I agree. There are two points I'd like to make though;

1. I admit I'm not sure about this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Obi-Wan only achieved his 'de Soresu Master' level towards the end of the Clone Wars (by the time of RotS) and that when he fought Ventress he hadn't yet reached that level.
they fought relatively close to the end of the Clone Wars, I believe. Obsession and the Dreadnoughts of Rendili

She does. But if the opponent is facing away and can't see to mount a defense...it's different than if an enemy is facing you head on.

Zannah probably could get Sarro if she could put enough distance between them. How does one block sith magic anyway? beside Cade's power.

Presumably defense with the Force.

thats specific. xD Would a force shield do the trick? usually Jedi have their force shieds up though, while fighting another force user.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
they fought relatively close to the end of the Clone Wars, I believe. Obsession and the Dreadnoughts of Rendili

I see. Okay, fair enough.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
She does. But if the opponent is facing away and can't see to mount a defense...it's different than if an enemy is facing you head on.

Granted.

I'm wondering though, just how good is Ventress's defence against this kind of psychic attack? In 'Dark Rendezvous' Dooku used some type of mental torture and she was on the floor begging him to stop, clearly in torment. True, Dooku was her Master, so there was a personal connection there that could account for her being more vulnerable (as she herself notes), but still...

Also, Zannah notes that Sarro's obsessive devotion to lightsabre training left him open to other means of attack, suggesting that a more well-rounded Jedi could have resisted the hallucinations. Now while this would surely involve the Force, is it simply a matter of having sufficient power/skill, or does it require specific methods that Ventress may not know?

Originally posted by kotorfan
thats specific. xD Would a force shield do the trick? usually Jedi have their force shieds up though, while fighting another force user.

I doubt that just a Force shield would be enough. While it's noted that Sarro and Raskta were not good at defending against Force attacks, Jedi/Sith are trained to put up Force shields before they even start lightsabre training.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
I see. Okay, fair enough.



Granted.

I'm wondering though, just how good is Ventress's defence against this kind of psychic attack? In 'Dark Rendezvous' Dooku used some type of mental torture and she was on the floor begging him to stop, clearly in torment. True, Dooku was her Master, so there was a personal connection there that could account for her being more vulnerable (as she herself notes), but still...
this IS Dooku, AKA: someone so strong he's literally one of the strongest Jedi ever and is only stronger as a Sith, in the Force, he has to eclipse Apprentice Zannah. That could easily amount for the difference.

And Ventress is apparently a powerful Force User, even if she's not top tier.

For Zannah, this is a HUGE leap on her part as she's only noting it because she feels that Sarro's skill with a blade is from him neglecting everything else-god help her if she made this assumption against Mace Windu, and it's a bit of an assumption. She only hits Sarro when he's exhausted from the BM wearing off and distracted. If she could pull it off, while not do it instead of bracing herself while Sarro whirls his lightsaber to prepare for the strike she knew' would kill her?

Source?

one of the Bane books I think.

Not sure about the Jedi though. But sith are.

Path of Destruction, to be exact.

yeah I think it was when Bane was training to be a sith.

Yep. Force Shields are standard operating procedure

And Shatterpoint.

Originally posted by Publius II
And Shatterpoint.

Nope. I was expecting this, and Jedi are taught to combat Telekinesis from before Lightsaber training. Nothing Mace does in that book implies a Force bubble. He just copes with the way he is thrown around and then uses Kar's own power against him.

No force bubble.

(Of course, the PoD source makes this distinction largely irrelevant, but I thought it needed to be made.)

Ah. Good catch.

Just as a question has any Jedi faced Sith Sorcery?

Back to the main point - IMO Zannah would be able to defeat Ventress. Ventress would pawn her in a lightsaber duel. That's a given. But if Zannah was able to get some distance she would kill Ventress. Zannah at the end of Rule of Two is a nearly fully trained Sith Lord/Lady. Ventress would definitely not have any experience facing Sith Sorcery. She'd freak out and Zannah has an easy kill. Only upper tier Force-adepts might be able to resist Sith Sorcery.

Yeah, she would freak out. It's not like she's had any contact with powerful, scary Sith Lords before.

Oh wait.

Let me elaborate - has any Jedi of Ventress's era faced Sith Sorcery?

Probably not.

Edit: Happy Birthday, btw.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
this IS Dooku, AKA: someone so strong he's literally one of the strongest Jedi ever and is only stronger as a Sith, in the Force, he has to eclipse Apprentice Zannah. That could easily amount for the difference.

And Ventress is apparently a powerful Force User, even if she's not top tier. ]

Good point.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
For Zannah, this is a HUGE leap on her part as she's only noting it because she feels that Sarro's skill with a blade is from him neglecting everything else-god help her if she made this assumption against Mace Windu, and it's a bit of an assumption. She only hits Sarro when he's exhausted from the BM wearing off and distracted. If she could pull it off, while not do it instead of bracing herself while Sarro whirls his lightsaber to prepare for the strike she knew' would kill her?

Farfalla also states "A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force Attacks."

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Just as a question has any Jedi faced Sith Sorcery?

Back to the main point - IMO Zannah would be able to defeat Ventress. Ventress would pawn her in a lightsaber duel. That's a given.

I wouldn't go that far. She'd win a blade-to-blade fight, sure, but it wouldn't be as easy as beating 'Jedi red shirt 15' or whatever.

Thanks Publius II

Against Mace, the Sorcery would probably be nothing more than a distraction and she would escape her eventual fate at the hands of one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in history. But Sith Sorcery against an upper tier Force-user like Dooku, Yoda or Luke & Kyp for that matter wouldn't do much.

It wouldn't even be a distraction for a Mace fully on his guard

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Good point.



Farfalla also states "A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force Attacks."

That was just Raskta, though. 'THE' Weapons Master

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That was just Raskta, though. 'THE' Weapons Master

True. I'd like to point out though that Sarro was stated to have "followed his Master's path," meaning that he had also trained obsessively at lightsabre combat while neglecting other aspects of Jedi training.

Mace Windu (for example) would not have this problem because he did not focus obsessively on lightsabre training only. He didn't need to; he was talented enough to become a master swordsman and still develop all of his other skills. For example in the RotS novel it's stated that his diplomatic skills had averted 'numberless battles.'

Mace was a master diplomat, a swordsman who was borderline peerless and a powerful Force User as well, this is so.

There's a nice story of how he was surrounded by twelve killers, all with blasters trained. Mace just said calmly: "It's your decision" and each of them lowered their weapons.

But yeah, I'll give you that Sarro likely didn't have the greatest defense with the force in general, but even so...Zannah is taking a big leap of faith. If it had been someone like Kit Fisto or Mace Windu and she made the same call? Mistake. Also, would this mean Sarro have neglected ANY skill besides saber training or that he'd just become a saber master?

Kit Fisto's badass.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mace was a master diplomat, a swordsman who was borderline peerless and a powerful Force User as well, this is so.

There's a nice story of how he was surrounded by twelve killers, all with blasters trained. Mace just said calmly: "It's your decision" and each of them lowered their weapons.

But yeah, I'll give you that Sarro likely didn't have the greatest defense with the force in general, but even so...Zannah is taking a big leap of faith. If it had been someone like Kit Fisto or Mace Windu and she made the same call? Mistake. Also, would this mean Sarro have neglected ANY skill besides saber training or that he'd just become a saber master?

Yeah that was so cool. They probably thought they had a chance at first but they got so scared of Mace's lightsaber.. Or was it just that Mace was well known enough that they were scared of Mace himself? because then other jedi could just take out a lightsaber and solve problems like that.