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So many of you may be aware that one of the biggest antisemitic websites is jewwatch.com. I signed a petition to have it removed and now my name is pops up on google under a hit list of every single person who signed the petition under a website called "shitler's list" that claims it wants to catalog 120,000 jews for use by right wing hate sites by name and by as much personal information that can be obtained about them.

thats what you get for getting involved and having an opinion about ppl who have a right to post websites whatever they may be.

The master race haermm

incitement to violence is not protected speech

It should not be removed because people disagree with them, who are the real fascists in that situation.

Nah I disagree.

The opposing argument would be "How free are you if you cannot post a peaceful petition without condemnation and your details being given to people with a background in murder."

And your argument only works when the website people are not in fact.... ....ring wing fascists who represent an organisation is has a history of genocide.

Would you also call opposers of pedophile websites facists too...?
Its not facism, but the result of democracy.

You do know you can't remove a website from the internet? Who exactly is this petition aimed at? Who ever hosts the site could remove it but then they will just find another one, a never ending pointless cycle because people can't ignore some thing they don't agree with on the internet.

Yes. But not pressuring such sites to close is seen by most as condoning it. And Ive never been the type to support ignorant racists.

Would you make such an argument if it were you or your family, who were the focus of the site's hate/incitement..?

Ignoring them is better than killing them.
Although taking action against those sites is hardly ignoring them.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yes. But not pressuring such sites to close is seen by most as condoning it. And Ive never been the type to support ignorant racists So you only care about this because most people would label you as accepting it? What about the thousands of other racist websites and much worse?



Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Would you make such an argument if it were you or your family, who were the focus of the site's hate/incitement..? I have not seen this website so I have no idea what it's content is. However there is a big difference between ignorant hatred of millions of people when they have no power to actually do any thing and focused hate on a few individuals.

even criminals have the right to face their accusers in court and get their names and address from the police report as well as the arresting officer.
seems to me you expected to hide and make a change without being discovered i find such things a cowards way of thinking.

ppl should stand up for what they believe, instead of hiding in the shadows. may not always be safe but nothing in life should be gained without risk.

jewwatch...haha how lame...wonder if any black folk have a whitewatch site...do we have a latinowatch site also....I have to quote a milk bar buddy here ....the nightmare never ends...I need a beer

Originally posted by Magee
So you only care about this because most people would label you as accepting it? What about the thousands of other racist websites and much worse?



I have not seen this website so I have no idea what it's content is. However there is a big difference between ignorant hatred of millions of people when they have no power to actually do any thing and focused hate on a few individuals.

No whatever other people think isnt a deciding factor, its an observation that it is a popular concensus in a democratic society..


Whether or not you've seen it, all you need to know is that those that run it are accumilating peoples personal details and giving them to the other sites. Hate sites. Violence. A lot of places with lots of people.

And in the numbers game that is life, it only takes one of those many people to snap. Then you have armed nutter angry with someone whos personal details they have. And more people are supplied, the more likely it is that more nutters are more likely to have a go at you.

So if were on that list, how'd you feel about that...?

Incitement of hate/violence= Wrong/illegal/pain in the ass.
Data/privacy infringement= Wrong/illegal/pain in the ass.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
even criminals have the right to face their accusers in court and get their names and address from the police report as well as the arresting officer.
seems to me you expected to hide and make a change without being discovered i find such things a cowards way of thinking.

ppl should stand up for what they believe, instead of hiding in the shadows. may not always be safe but nothing in life should be gained without risk.

No I just believe that organised racist hate gangs are twats, who sometimes get a little too much power and bad things happen.

If Jello wanted to not be passed round to every Jew hating Tom and Dick and Harry in the internet owning world, thats his business and we shouldn't oppose him on that.

BTW As much as all that is true, I think also that you were right in your initial post, but I think the grief that he might now get for it outweighs the 'crime' of naivety.

You make that last statement without having given us your name address and details though. Not very risky, is it?

i am a military man. i see things in black and white, follow orders or disobey. either way their are consequences.

stand up and be counted or sit down and be ignored.

whether i agree with ppl or not they all have the right to voice their believes.

thats the country i live in and thats the country i fight for.

Then get behind your ethicry and post your name address and details. :P All those anti Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq will no doubt in your view have a right to know where you and you family are along with anyother random nutters that might like to have a pop.

Really though.

You wouldn't.

I wouldn't.

Nobody would really expect us to, either.

i am not the one who is trying to shut down anyone here by signing a petition, but if i were i would sign the forms. i have in the past filed form for incompetence of my higher ranking officers and staff Nco's in the past with my name and personal information. i have gone in front of the base commander and answered his questions in front of the ppl i was accusing of incompetence and illegal behavior. knowing full well that many of my fellow marines were against me, but i did want i felt was right and i got in a few fights after wards. i would not change my chose if i had to do it again.


you also have a pretty immature way of looking at an argument.
thinking i have to give out information about me just to give credit to my argument.

i already have shown iraqi ppl my name and rank as well as to my location that is the point of of my uniform. as well as paper work they are process they have as much right to see who was the person responsible of conviscating items from them. as well as military personal being able to track me down in case of information.

to be honest sometimes doing the right thing tends to leave you alone in the cold against everyone else it aint easy but sometimes its about principle.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i am not the one who is trying to shut down anyone here by signing a petition, but if i were i would sign the forms. i have in the past filed form for incompetence of my higher ranking officers and staff Nco's in the pass with my name and personal information. i have gone in front of the base commander and answered his questions in front of the ppl i was accusing of incompetence and illegal behavior knowing full well that many of my fellow marines were against me, but i did want i felt was right and i got in a few fights after wards. i would not change my chose if i had to do it again.


you also have a pretty immature way of looking at an argument.
thinking i have to give out information about me just to give credit to my argument.

i already have shown iraqi ppl my name and rank as well as to my location that is the point of of ny uniform. as well as paper work they are process they have as much right to see who was the person responsible of conviscating items from them. as well as military personal being able to track me down in case of information.
Firstly, good on you for the first bit if you did do that. My hat is off to you for that. But if you had retribution, it would be very obvious to the authorities who it was who would have whacked you.
But this case is different that it could be any one or three of millions and millions of "equally cowardly" nazis with internet access..

Immature...? Nope. Im the one making the effort to listen.

It would've been merely getting behind what you believe according to your earlier post.
Doing it would be no problem for someone who seriously lived their life by such ethicry as you stated to be yours, thats all.
And I knew you wouldnt, which is fair enough.
I was merely making a point about Jello's right to not have his personal details handed to organised hate groups.

Fair enough but you wouldnt support them being given your address and personal details. Would you...? Nor should you, for very good reason.

Also on the personal info poster's rights thing.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
incitement to violence is not protected speech

They aren't passing it to Mother Theresa or Ghandi here.

if ppl wanted personal info about military personal and address it is very easy to find online it would be random names of ppl with address. if a hate group of whatever region wanted to they could just go on myspace which certain ppl have done to harass military members, i hate to think what else has happen but their it is. i am also on their if ppl wanted to find me.

i am not one to worry about "what ifs" or "could be". not to say i will simply walk up to a stranger and hand my address that it is just foolish and i would have no reason to do it.

your last statement is the government does not hand over personal information to most ppl who ask for it. as much as i wish it didnt it makes it quiet easy for military personal to be found. while i was in iraq, i was easily tracked down to answer questions or accusation by non military personal. they may not be allowed to roam free unescorted on base but that is a security issue that out weighs the situation we are talking about here.

ITs not hard to make a list of of jews is it; Israel!?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
So if were on that list, how'd you feel about that... I would never put my name and address any where on the internet except when buying some thing which is private. If Jello did and any one else who signed the petition then they just have to accept it, they made there personal details public and available for any one to use in any way they want.

Right. Thats legal.

What isnt is incitement to hatred/violence.

The hate groups and the people deliberately supplying the hate groups are responsible.

Im not saying that what Jello did wasnt naive, but these folk in these organisations are more the villians here.
Its an excellent argument against over centralisation of data, however.

in order for the site to incite violence it has to actually state to go and commit crimes. if anything legal disclaimers should be enough to keep them out of trouble when ppl sign in. saying that ppl are solely responsible for their opinion and the site does not in any way enforce or agrees with ppl's comments that are posted.

either way has anyone been in the site in the first place to at least see what it is that is inciting violence? the hate part i could give two squats about because ppl have the right to hate.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
in order for the site to incite violence it has to actually state to go and commit crimes. if anything legal disclaimers should be enough to keep them out of trouble when ppl sign in. saying that ppl are solely responsible for their opinion and the site does not in any way enforce or agrees with ppl's comments that are posted.

either way has anyone been in the site in the first place to at least see what it is that is inciting violence? the hate part i could give two squats about because ppl have the right to hate.

Sure. I hate Michael Bay.

But theres a big difference between me hating someone and wanting to kill them.

Nazi sites are well... Nazis and their track record has not been the most peaceful.

Its like your children's personal info being passed without your consent to Michael Jackson and his buddies. You'd resent that principle, wouldn't you...?

to be honest i dont have kids, and i am pretty apathetic to that reference. either way it is just information that anyone can obtain regardless of the type of ppl who are searching for it.

you are basically playing the "what if" game that you feel should excite ppl to do something against. that kinda thinking tends to jeopardize ppl's freedom more often then not and step on ppl's civil rights.

fear should never be the answer to pass any law.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i am a military man. i see things in black and white, follow orders or disobey. either way their are consequences.

stand up and be counted or sit down and be ignored.

whether i agree with ppl or not they all have the right to voice their believes.

thats the country i live in and thats the country i fight for.
feel for ya if you just see things in black and white...when the va denies your benefits you will hit the grey area....and dont try it..my mother spent her whole adult life volunteering to help vets b4 her death up until the week she died...my father still works for the va 30 years....and was a vet b4 that..to many grey areas brutha

Originally posted by Jack Daniels
feel for ya if you just see things in black and white...when the va denies your benefits you will hit the grey area....and dont try it..my mother spent her whole adult life volunteering to help vets b4 her death up until the week she died...my father still works for the va 30 years....and was a vet b4 that..to many grey areas brutha

yeah, i know their is a grey area in life but it shouldnt be that way ever in military life, ppl take an oath then they should follow it where it leads. my problem is liar murderers and thieves who wear the uniform.

i hate superiors who take advantage of their subordinates...... i'll leave it at that.


VA sucks man i have copies of copies of copies just to keep the VA from F' ing me over.

kewl fer u man! I feel better now I will go away..lol..peace!

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth

Nazi sites are well... Nazis and their track record has not been the most peaceful.

guilty before proving themselves innocent?

being a nazi or owning a nazi website are not equal to inciting violence.

making a list of publicly available information is not illegal. There is no evidence (that I have seen, I'm open) of this group promoting violence against these people, and the fact that "nazis are bad" is not legitimate evidence to prevent them from doing something that is not illegal.

Oh I wouldnt go as far as to say that they were guilty before they did anything, but if any of the information is exploited, then its not gonna be in a positive way towards the people the information is about.
I doubt that they'll be sending 'em flowers.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i am not the one who is trying to shut down anyone here by signing a petition, but if i were i would sign the forms. i have in the past filed form for incompetence of my higher ranking officers and staff Nco's in the past with my name and personal information. i have gone in front of the base commander and answered his questions in front of the ppl i was accusing of incompetence and illegal behavior. knowing full well that many of my fellow marines were against me, but i did want i felt was right and i got in a few fights after wards. i would not change my chose if i had to do it again.


you also have a pretty immature way of looking at an argument.
thinking i have to give out information about me just to give credit to my argument.

i already have shown iraqi ppl my name and rank as well as to my location that is the point of of my uniform. as well as paper work they are process they have as much right to see who was the person responsible of conviscating items from them. as well as military personal being able to track me down in case of information.

to be honest sometimes doing the right thing tends to leave you alone in the cold against everyone else it aint easy but sometimes its about principle.

Is it really neccesary to attach pictures to every single post?...I'm sure the Admins don't really want you using up unneccesary bandwith for no reason.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Oh I wouldnt go as far as to say that they were guilty before they did anything, but if any of the information is exploited, then its not gonna be in a positive way towards the people the information is about.
I doubt that they'll be sending 'em flowers.

It could be a massive campaign to say "sorry for the hatred".

Yeah that would be nice of 'em.

But Id doubt that to be their intent.

I actually didn't put any personal information on that list other than my name. There's a lot of shit people can dig up on someone based solely on a name and IP address. and why does being in the military make you a moral absolutist? That's just retarded.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
I actually didn't put any personal information on that list other than my name. There's a lot of shit people can dig up on someone based solely on a name and IP address. and why does being in the military make you a moral absolutist? That's just retarded.

Seeing the world in black and white makes it much much easier to follow order. Good vs Bad. Us vs Them. Obey vs Disobey.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Oh I wouldnt go as far as to say that they were guilty before they did anything, but if any of the information is exploited, then its not gonna be in a positive way towards the people the information is about.
I doubt that they'll be sending 'em flowers.

thats fine

obviously I'm not supporting nazis, all I'm saying is that actual evidence of a crime needs to be shown before anything by the state can be done about it.

Technically, I am allowed to gather as much intel as I want about pretty much anything. I can't act on or distribute a lot of it, but like, censoring that list would be much like forcing people to take the subway blindfolded, because they are going to be able to see potential places to bomb.

Originally posted by inimalist
thats fine

obviously I'm not supporting nazis, all I'm saying is that actual evidence of a crime needs to be shown before anything by the state can be done about it.

Technically, I am allowed to gather as much intel as I want about pretty much anything. I can't act on or distribute a lot of it, but like, censoring that list would be much like forcing people to take the subway blindfolded, because they are going to be able to see potential places to bomb.

Can't argue with any of that.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Can't argue with any of that.

Fair enough.

inimalist: 1

Sadako: 0

I win on aggregate.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I win on aggregate.

apparently I'm punching above my weight

I signed it. I didn't use my real name or e-mail.