I need debating help

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xxxpoppunker182
K plz don't close this thread. I need help with my argument of why vader would beat voldemort in fight.

this debate is going on at my work and I need some help mainly because I don't own all the harry potter books and getting citations for why voldemort wouldn't use the aveda kedavera right off the bat because he would try and torture vader first .

any way i need your guys's help so if you would help me i would appreciate it.

Publius II
Assuming no PIS, then Voldemort wouldn't try to torture Vader first; he'd try to kill him right off the bat.

Gideon
Originally posted by Publius II
Assuming no PIS, then Voldemort wouldn't try to torture Vader first; he'd try to kill him right off the bat.

Honestly, I don't know how well a Force user would do against someone of Voldemort's calibre. Part of me still thinks the man could defeat the likes of Sidious and Luke.

DorianYates
Depends where this fight is taking really, put vader in the harry potter universe and he would fall on his own because theres no "force" in that universe and therefore volde wins.

Place voldemort in the SW universe and then thats where vader has the major advantage.

Gideon
Presumably, they exist in the same universe. The only way I can see a Force user winning is through superior reflexes; Voldemort's physically only human.

Publius II
Vader should be able to snap his neck before he can blink, to be honest. But should he fail to do so, Voldemort has an infinite number of ways to kill him.

DorianYates
Can vader grip his balls and then squeeze them hard enough to kill voldemort?

Gideon
Originally posted by Publius II
Vader should be able to snap his neck before he can blink, to be honest. But should he fail to do so, Voldemort has an infinite number of ways to kill him.

That's what I mean. Voldemort isn't limited in the ways that Vader are, in terms of both scope and scale.

Not to mention the whole possession thing.

Publius II
Originally posted by DorianYates
Can vader grip his balls and then squeeze them hard enough to kill voldemort? Only someone on steroids would think of that.

I'm telling on you.

Edit: And you'd have to be Harry Potter to be "possessed" by Voldemort if he isn't physically dead (which would be a TKO, as far as I'm concerned).

Gideon
Are you sure you have to be Harry Potter in order to be possessed by someone?

Edit: That was completely retarded. What I meant was "are you sure Voldemort can only possess Harry Potter if he isn't physically dead?"

DorianYates
Naaah i only take growth hormones messed

And i told your mom big grin

But on the serious matter i can't say who wins for sure and i don't know jack about voldemort so i'll concede.

Publius II
Originally posted by Gideon
Are you sure you have to be Harry Potter in order to be possessed by someone?

Edit: That was completely retarded. What I meant was "are you sure Voldemort can only possess Harry Potter if he isn't physically dead?" Reading is good. I meant that if the target isn't Harry Potter (it isn't), Voldemort needs to be in corporeal form to possess it (as with Quirrel, the animals, etc.).

Gideon
Originally posted by Publius II
Reading is good. I meant that if the target isn't Harry Potter (it isn't), Voldemort needs to be in corporeal form to possess it (as with Quirrel, the animals, etc.).

He wasn't corporeal when he possessed Quirrel.

Publius II
Originally posted by Gideon
He wasn't corporeal when he possessed Quirrel. ****. Color me embarrassed.

Incorporeal.

This thread is doing things to our grammar.

Gideon
I give up. This thread is cursed.

Cpt. Valerian
Well, as Lucas puts it, if Jedi existed in real life they'd move 'faster than the eye can see'. Think of Mace Windu in the Clone Wars against the thousand droids. You think Volde can take something like that?

Final Blaxican
Well, that's the point I think.

It's at least 5/5 for both combatants with it going 6/10 in Vader's favor, methinks.

Basically whoever attacks first wins.

Icy Ninja
I think Vader would win this Voldemort still has to say the spell doesn't he? In that time shouldn't Vader be able to force choke him or rip his wand out of his hand?

xxxpoppunker182
I think that vader would immediately choke him or move in with a lightsaber and cut him in half. where as voldemort would try and torture him because in book 5 i think snape says how voldemort woul torture his opponents until they begged for him to kill them.

also since the force is in all things it would be in magic too if they were to be in the same univers or at least I would say that the force would be an equal "force" in the sense that say they cast a spell a force push could push the spell back.

also vaders force defenses i'd say would prove useful in this fight.

as to voldo's possesion i think he can only possess people who arent too powerful like i doubt he could possess the likes of dumbledoor or mad eye

also i think he could only possess harry because of their bond since harry was a horocrux of volomorts

Allankles
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
I think that vader would immediately choke him or move in with a lightsaber and cut him in half. where as voldemort would try and torture him because in book 5 i think snape says how voldemort woul torture his opponents until they begged for him to kill them.

also since the force is in all things it would be in magic too if they were to be in the same univers or at least I would say that the force would be an equal "force" in the sense that say they cast a spell a force push could push the spell back.

also vaders force defenses i'd say would prove useful in this fight.

as to voldo's possesion i think he can only possess people who arent too powerful like i doubt he could possess the likes of dumbledoor or mad eye

also i think he could only possess harry because of their bond since harry was a horocrux of volomorts

Yeah any spells that work like a projectiles can probably be neutralized by a force shield but I don't know if the death spell works like other spells in that regard.

However as you said, If Volde needs to utter words to use the spell Vader could easily crush his vocal chords with a choke.

xxxpoppunker182
No he doesnt have to say the spells just think them. it was a major theme in book 6 about how harry would always be behind snape or voldemort because he had to verbally say the spells he used.

also can anyone provide me with the eact quote and source where Lucas says that Vader is 80% as powerful as the emperor?

Allankles
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
No he doesnt have to say the spells just think them. it was a major theme in book 6 about how harry would always be behind snape or voldemort because he had to verbally say the spells he used.

also can anyone provide me with the eact quote and source where Lucas says that Vader is 80% as powerful as the emperor?

That would be a problem for Vader unless he snapped Voldie's neck first. Since Voldie has no force shield Vader can easily crumple his body to death with the force.

In Rise of Darth Vader Palpatine muses that Vader could still surpass him even after Mustafar if he let go of his self loathing and fully embraced the dark side.

I know it has nothing to do with your request but it gives some perspective of where Vader could be if he overcame the psychological wounds he sustained from Mustafar.

Lord Lucien
Assuming the otherwise insurmountable problem of Force vs. Magic is solved by "the Force can't deflect Magic and Magic can't dispel the Force" is present, I'd say that Vader would have no idea as to what Voldemort can do and what that wand of his can do. Likewise, Voldemort is ignorant of the properties of Vader's Force-powers and his lightsaber.

That said, assuming it's from the get-go a no hold's bar duel, both aware that their mysterious opponent possess dangerous powers unknown to them, then...

If Voldemort gets in the first move, Vader will die. End of story.

If Vader manages to grip Voldemort with TK, Voldemort can apparate out of it and Magic Vader away, Avada Kedavra him, Cruciatus him, Imperius him, magically immobilize him etc etc. Vader's finished unless he suddenly becomes an expert on Magic and his already inhibited physical capabilities exceed the speed and radius to which Voldemort's spell can reach. I'd give that to Voldemort too.

I see Vader's only chance of winning is to catch Voldemort by surprise by TK'ing him to the ground or in to a wall, quickly moving in with his saber or by crushing Voldemort's body. Another possible scenario for Vader is if Voldemort attempts to block or shield the saber with Magic---not good for him. But the saber's blade being a beam of energy and not the Force does not fall subject to my above rule. If Voldemort has the ability of blocking pure, unadultered energy, then Vader's again beat.

Darth Exodus
Vader can dodge blaster bolts and stuff, I'm sure he can dodge whatever Volde throws at him (precog helps) untill he can rip his spine out with the Force or somethin'

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Vader can dodge blaster bolts and stuff, I'm sure he can dodge whatever Volde throws at him (precog helps) untill he can rip his spine out with the Force or somethin' We don't know the extent of Voldemort's powers, if hes has anything that covers a radius... And blaster bolts as seen in the movies appear to travel at the speed of spells, so get enough of them going, he can't dodge them all.

DorianYates
Doesn't volde have to mumble a bunch of mumbo jumbo before casting a spell?

Jaeh.is.Awesome
...i think this is a case of who attacks whom first. If Voldie goes first, Vader is pwned - Avada Kedavra and Vader is one with the Force.

If Vadie goes first, on the other hand - I think Force Choke should be enough to disorient Voldie and eventually kill him - if he is disoriented enough.

at least, that's what i think.

xxxpoppunker182

Lord Lucien
True say on Voldemort's aim. Though a lot of his misses are do to intervention ala Dumbledore or others. But if you're looking for a definitive answer, it's who gets the first strike really. And be sure to tell the guys you're arguing with that Magic vs the Force is pure supposition.

Allankles
Originally posted by Lord Lucien


If Voldemort gets in the first move, Vader will die. End of story.

If Vader manages to grip Voldemort with TK, Voldemort can apparate out of it and Magic Vader away, Avada Kedavra him, Cruciatus him, Imperius him, magically immobilize him etc etc. Vader's finished unless he suddenly becomes an expert on Magic and his already inhibited physical capabilities exceed the speed and radius to which Voldemort's spell can reach. I'd give that to Voldemort too.



The idea is that Vader can crumple Volde's body instantly with his TK.

No reason why - with the force of his TK - he can't instantly kill Volde. Vader has been known to turn reenforced steel to patty he could easily crush someone who lacks a force bubble.

In Labyrinth Palpatine crumpled a Storm troopers body instantly with TK.

xxxpoppunker182
and vader could just stop his heart or take his wand away

Publius II
Originally posted by Allankles
In Labyrinth Palpatine crumpled a Storm troopers body instantly with TK. That was the work of two Geonosian drones with their sonic guns. Palpatine didn't do anything aggressive in LoE.

Icy Ninja
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
No he doesnt have to say the spells just think them.
Has Voldemort ever used the killing spell without uttering the words? He can probably do weaker spells with out speaking though.

xxxpoppunker182
yes he has in book 5 he says it once but casts it like 5 or 6 times without saying anything

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Allankles
The idea is that Vader can crumple Volde's body instantly with his TK.

No reason why - with the force of his TK - he can't instantly kill Volde. Vader has been known to turn reenforced steel to patty he could easily crush someone who lacks a force bubble.

In Labyrinth Palpatine crumpled a Storm troopers body instantly with TK. Exactly. If Vader stuns him with such a move, Voldemort's screwed. But should it not work or be fast enough, Voldemort could teleport, say, behind Vader.

Gideon
Yarr.

Nactous
Tough one...

Publius II
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Exactly. If Vader stuns him with such a move, Voldemort's screwed. But should it not work or be fast enough, Voldemort could teleport, say, behind Vader. The point is that if Vader isn't quick enough to just crush Voldemort outright, he's done. Apparating would just give Vader more time; turning him into a frog or simply using the Killling Curse on him would be more efficient.

DorianYates
LOL turn vader into a frog.

I wonder how is he going to do sidious bidding by then because the only thing he can show to sidious is inflate his double chin.

xxxpoppunker182
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Exactly. If Vader stuns him with such a move, Voldemort's screwed. But should it not work or be fast enough, Voldemort could teleport, say, behind Vader.

I think you are overlooking how all force users fight.....precognition they all of it and it is used in lightsaber combat all the time in fact everytime aside from when Ulic fought vima when he was stripped of the force.

so if voldemort were to teleport wouldn't vader know where he is going to be?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
I think you are overlooking how all force users fight.....precognition they all of it and it is used in lightsaber combat all the time in fact everytime aside from when Ulic fought vima when he was stripped of the force.

so if voldemort were to teleport wouldn't vader know where he is going to be? Ah that's a Deus ex. It gives Vader and every Force user the presumed ability to instantly know everything that's coming their way. But as we've seen, they don't always.

I don't think Vader would be able to instantaneously react to instantaneous teleportation, especially if it's right behind him. A scenario I imagine is Vader not using his full power of TK right away. Many instances have shown him engaging in light TK (choke) or engaging in saber combat. I think for him to outright squash Voldemort's body in one quick movement he'd have to have witnessed Voldemort's destructive powers, and by then it may be too late for Vader. Lol, imagine him trying to use his saber or his glove to block a spell.

xxxpoppunker182
well voldemort wouldn't go in with aveda kadevra right off that bat either he says himself that he likes to torutre people until they beg him to kil them

Bardock42
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
K plz don't close this thread. I need help with my argument of why vader would beat voldemort in fight.

this debate is going on at my work and I need some help mainly because I don't own all the harry potter books and getting citations for why voldemort wouldn't use the aveda kedavera right off the bat because he would try and torture vader first .

any way i need your guys's help so if you would help me i would appreciate it.

Because....no, he wouldn't.

Though, maybe you'd like to check out these 'ere threads for arguments on both sides.

Palpatine vs Voldemort

Yoda versus Dumbledore (the Force versus Hogwarts magic)

Though those do not include the EU.

xxxpoppunker182

SIDIOUS 66
A better comparison would be Sidious vs Voldemort.

Pure evil vs pure evil.

Gideon
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
A better comparison would be Sidious vs Voldemort.

Pure evil vs pure evil.

Alas, Voldemort is turned into a retard in Book 7.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Gideon
Alas, Voldemort is turned into a retard in Book 7.

What do you mean?

kotorfan
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ah that's a Deus ex. It gives Vader and every Force user the presumed ability to instantly know everything that's coming their way. But as we've seen, they don't always.

I don't think Vader would be able to instantaneously react to instantaneous teleportation, especially if it's right behind him. A scenario I imagine is Vader not using his full power of TK right away. Many instances have shown him engaging in light TK (choke) or engaging in saber combat. I think for him to outright squash Voldemort's body in one quick movement he'd have to have witnessed Voldemort's destructive powers, and by then it may be too late for Vader. Lol, imagine him trying to use his saber or his glove to block a spell.

well.. the same goes for Voldemort also. He might not just kill Vader, because he doesn't know the extent of his capabilities.

And this really does depend on who attacks first. If voldemort hits with the killing curse, Vader is screwed, and if Vader implodes Voldemort, Volde's screwed.

I would tend to say that Vader would win 7/10 because he is faster than Voldemort, has precog to sense that Voldemort would try to teleport or something.

If Voldemort teleports, Vader could sense where he was before he was there. (this all depends really..) If he didn't sense fast enough, he would die, obviously. but then there is the case where Voldemort always misses for some retarded reason. Vader, being faster than Voldemort would likely be able to dodge the spells.

Also can the Force be used to block spells? and can Voldemort's shield be used to block lightsaber energy?
Clarification needed to continue talking about this stuff.

maybe i'll change it to 5/10 times.. lol

EDIT: well I recently read a really little bit of one of the other threads posted here, and some people said that magic can be used to turn people into animals, freeze time teleport etc. If you think about it, the Force can do that also. well not the freeze time part, although they could seemingly slow down falls, and time but not freeze it. maybe some powerful sith could but idk. There was someone who was immortal, not yoda, and sith magic can be used to turn people into rakaguols or whatever those things were in the Original KotOR, which would qualify as transforming people into animals. There was also another instance where some sith lady used sith magic to make these abominations out of metal and humans or something like that. I don't quite remember very well. I'll go look it up. Oh ya and Cade skywalker was able to Revive the dead, and Medical Jedi such as Barriss Offee was able to heal large wounds etc.

and another question: Would Force Lightning be considered a type of magic?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by kotorfan


Also can the Force be used to block spells? and can Voldemort's shield be used to block lightsaber energy?

and another question: Would Force Lightning be considered a type of magic? We don't know. Nobody knows. It's comparing two unique and defining aspects of two different universes. They're not comparable.

And no.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
We don't know. Nobody knows. It's comparing two unique and defining aspects of two different universes. They're not comparable.

And no.

Then, putting Voldemort against Vader is pointless.

because they're not comparable...

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
Then, putting Voldemort against Vader is pointless.

because they're not comparable... Ergo the rules of the Versus forum.

Publius II
QED.

Final Blaxican
I thought I answered this thread on the first page.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ergo the rules of the Versus forum.

Originally posted by Publius II
QED.

right.

Publius II
We realize.

CadoAngelus
they'd both sit down and get to know each other first. old volde would say how he can't smell without a nose, and Vader would say he can only smell burning.

on that note Vader can smell...1-0

darthbane99
Two different worlds,but technically all magic is,is the force,and all,the force is,is energy,which is the force. Long winded yeah.

I would lean more to vader,simply because vader can choke him befor voldo whips out is magic wand. Vader can even tk **** up voldo at a distance,even on anotehr planet. Remember there is nmo limitation for how far someone is to use the force on them.

Where as voldo needs to project his power from close range,itll be a matter of time,and vader would just force rush on over and sere him in half.

Its very likely that if both where in each others world,that the main character of that universe would have the advantage. EG;like voldo in harrys world vs vader,voldo would win,and vise versa.

In the same world,yeah vader. Some would say voldo but i dont agree. Trinket spells are o mach for the power of the force.

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