Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Kenshiro fights the androids, in this fight he masters the ability to fly and he learns the Kaio Ken attack and can go up to x20. So now he can push his body twenty times its limit and he can stay in that mode until the fight is over. No energy blasts, strictly H2H.

Fight 1: He fights them seperately.
Fight 2: He fights them both.

Who wins?

17 and 18 beat him solo and stomp him hard together. Ken isn't as fast as the Z fighters during the android saga even at the saiyans base levels. Kaioken x20 is nothing to ssj's increase of 50 times also and Vegeta was still useless against 18.

Is this the anime or manga Kenshiro?

Originally posted by Kento
17 and 18 beat him solo and stomp him hard together. Ken isn't as fast as the Z fighters during the android saga even at the saiyans base levels. Kaioken x20 is nothing to ssj's increase of 50 times also and Vegeta was still useless against 18.

But the thing is that Kenshiro has never had a problem with speed. Souther was way faster than him and was probably the only character to everr speedblitz someone. Kenshiro took the attack and absorbed his style and was able to counter his moves. He also has insanely fast reaction time and reflexes and already knew how to teleport. I think that if you amplify Hokuto Shinken times 20 then he should not only be able to keep up, but also be able to surpass their speed.

He already showed us that he had the brute strength to destroy a tank, he has showed us that he could fight so fast that it looks like he is just standing there, he has some insane strength and durability feats. Like I said speed shouldn't be a problem.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Is this the anime or manga Kenshiro?

I thought they were the same, but I'll go with his strongest version. He also has Musou Tensei.

Well in that case, I think Kenshiro could win. I mean, the only advantage they got is flying, unlimited stamina, fire power (which Ken can obviously dodge). Up close, he's a very dangerous opponent with a style like the Hokuto Shinken and that alone could end the match since he's no slouch to speed too (heck, he once punched 17 times in less than a second but of course, he's got other speed feats too). And with the Musou Tensei, yeah, I gotta say this goes to Ken.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
But the thing is that Kenshiro has never had a problem with speed. Souther was way faster than him and was probably the only character to everr speedblitz someone. Kenshiro took the attack and absorbed his style and was able to counter his moves. He also has insanely fast reaction time and reflexes and already knew how to teleport. I think that if you amplify Hokuto Shinken times 20 then he should not only be able to keep up, but also be able to surpass their speed.

He already showed us that he had the brute strength to destroy a tank, he has showed us that he could fight so fast that it looks like he is just standing there, he has some insane strength and durability feats. Like I said speed shouldn't be a problem.



I thought they were the same, but I'll go with his strongest version. He also has Musou Tensei. 17 and 18 have a larger gap between there speed and Ken than Souther had. And yes Ken fought so fast people thought he was standing still but 17 and 18 fought people who can fight just as fast as they can fly, and who can fly around the Earth in minutes. 17 and 18 also don't really have any style for Ken to learn and they are robot so Hokuto Shinken is automatically void. They are also a whole lot stronger than any tank. Gokou as a child was able to headbutt himself through advanced robots. That is better than destroying some ancient tank when DB world is a lot more advanced. Kaioken wouldn't change anything. He'd get a major speed, and strength boost sure but he would still be leagues below them. He'd probably be in the leagues of saiyan saga with Kaioken if anything. Against the androids his chances are down greatly because the major part of his fighting style is useless, and I don't see Nanto Saken being of much use. IF he can use Nanto styles and cut the androids then he may have a chance in a one-on-one but not against both at once.

Originally posted by Kento
17 and 18 have a larger gap between there speed and Ken than Souther had. And yes Ken fought so fast people thought he was standing still but 17 and 18 fought people who can fight just as fast as they can fly, and who can fly around the Earth in minutes. 17 and 18 also don't really have any style for Ken to learn and they are robot so Hokuto Shinken is automatically void. They are also a whole lot stronger than any tank. Gokou as a child was able to headbutt himself through advanced robots. That is better than destroying some ancient tank when DB world is a lot more advanced. Kaioken wouldn't change anything. He'd get a major speed, and strength boost sure but he would still be leagues below them. He'd probably be in the leagues of saiyan saga with Kaioken if anything. Against the androids his chances are down greatly because the major part of his fighting style is useless, and I don't see Nanto Saken being of much use. IF he can use Nanto styles and cut the androids then he may have a chance in a one-on-one but not against both at once.

Kenshiro has way better combat speed and reaction than the androids. Some guy was whipping him so fast that no one could even see exactly where he was hitting him and Ken stood there, took the whips and tied them together before the dude even realized it. Kenshiro was already insanely fast on his own, amping him times 20 makes him even faster, way faster. Also there is no proof that they can fly around the earth in minutes. Kenshiro doesn't need you to know a set stlye to be able to predict your moves. He learned Souther's moves from just one attack, and I don't care what you say they aren't 100% robots seeing as 18 was able to spit out a baby, but that is besides the point. I chose them so Ken couldn't go for the instant kill, he still has the strength to damage and kill them. Those robots he destroyed may have been more advanced but that doesn't mean they were made out of something more durable than the metal used to make a tank nor was it ever said if they were made from some special DB metal. Guy was already destroying tanks and lifting rocks over 100 tons before, now with Kaioken he should be insanely stronger and more durable.

Kenshiro can also use Nanto Seiken styles, he has been shown using Shuu's move on Souther perfectly and he used one of Rei's moves after learning Musou Tensei, so instead of saying he can do everyone he ever fought I'll just include the ones from the people that helped him learn MT which include Souther, Shin, Toki, Rei, and Ryuuga, where three of those use Nanto Seiken and one of them is the strongest of the 108 schools of Nanto. NS alone should be able to cut them, without the Kaioken. How does only "May have a chance" when he has Musou Tensei?

Well actually, 17 and 18 aren't really robots. They're cyborgs.

Does he get Muso Tensei or not?

Yeah, Wei said he gets Muso Tensei.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Does he get Muso Tensei or not?

To make it mroe interesting we'll say he fights one round without it, and one with.

..17 wins easy, 18 wins easy.. Just because Kenshiro has moved so fast even multiplyign that speed by 100X doesn tmake him as fast as even earlier DBZ character like Burter, or Saiyan Saga Vegeta, gezz Gokus has been moving so fats that people coudlnt see him sinc ehe was a kid, and he gets fast and faster till even people who can move at those inda of speeds cant see him and he increase sover and over, seriously, Kenshiro would be as helpless as a normla human agaisnt the power of 17 and 18

Originally posted by BradBalboa
..17 wins easy, 18 wins easy.. Just because Kenshiro has moved so fast even multiplyign that speed by 100X doesn tmake him as fast as even earlier DBZ character like Burter, or Saiyan Saga Vegeta, gezz Gokus has been moving so fats that people coudlnt see him sinc ehe was a kid, and he gets fast and faster till even people who can move at those inda of speeds cant see him and he increase sover and over, seriously, Kenshiro would be as helpless as a normla human agaisnt the power of 17 and 18

He has Musou Tensei, so how do they beat that? Kenshiro can fight so fast that it looks like he is just standing still, the androids have never done that. You don't know what Kenshiro can fully do so of course your opinion is biased. He can punch you over 100 times in less than a second. Pushing Hokuto Shinken 20 times his limit gives him a huge boost in this fight.

Piccolo from Freeza Saga would still be faster. And how is he going to activate Musou Tensei when he's speedblitzed to kingdom come. 20x his own speed isn't going to be enough to even know they moved before he's beaten. And I know he knows Nanto Saken. But that doesn't mean he can cut them with it. I was just saying IF he can cut them with Nanto he may have a chance one on one to damage them. But he wouldn't ever hit them. And they will never tire while even though he's got some ungodly stamina he will tire eventually and without being able to hit them. Even if he is intangible how will he hit them?

.Mate iv watched Fist of the North star and really enjoyed it, but jeez your seriously over estimating his power if you think he can take a couple of Androids so powerful they beat super saiayns to a pulp for fun!! the androis will end Kenshiro !!!Plus DBZ character have done stuff liek that for ages, are you forgettign when Goku was moving so fast it looked like he was just standign still, and thats to guys like the ginyu force who can see fast movements much easy than humans. an how will musoi tensei beat the androids ??

Originally posted by Kento
Piccolo from Freeza Saga would still be faster. And how is he going to activate Musou Tensei when he's speedblitzed to kingdom come. 20x his own speed isn't going to be enough to even know they moved before he's beaten. And I know he knows Nanto Saken. But that doesn't mean he can cut them with it. I was just saying IF he can cut them with Nanto he may have a chance one on one to damage them. But he wouldn't ever hit them. And they will never tire while even though he's got some ungodly stamina he will tire eventually and without being able to hit them. Even if he is intangible how will he hit them?

Kenshiro has godly reaction speed, and multiplying that by 20 would allow him to keep up. Even if they do hit him first, he will still be durable enough to take the attack and quickly learn all of their moves and predict their next attack and counter. He would be fast enough to use his MT. Nanto Ho-O Ken would be way more than enough to cut these androids, and Kenshiro is strong enough to use brute force to hurt them.

Originally posted by BradBalboa
.Mate iv watched Fist of the North star and really enjoyed it, but jeez your seriously over estimating his power if you think he can take a couple of Androids so powerful they beat super saiayns to a pulp for fun!! the androis will end Kenshiro !!!Plus DBZ character have done stuff liek that for ages, are you forgettign when Goku was moving so fast it looked like he was just standign still, and thats to guys like the ginyu force who can see fast movements much easy than humans. an how will musoi tensei beat the androids ??

Exactly when was he moving so fast that he appeared to be standing still? You really don't have to answer that since it is irrelevant seeing as goku isn't here. The androids can't touch something that is intangible so they can't beat him. Kenshiro is possibly the greatest Martial Artist in Anime/Manga history and he adapts to his enemy's fighting style and learns their moves. If you can counter your enemy and predict their moves then speed means nothing as he did to Souther.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Kenshiro has godly reaction speed, and multiplying that by 20 would allow him to keep up. Even if they do hit him first, he will still be durable enough to take the attack and quickly learn all of their moves and predict their next attack and counter. He would be fast enough to use his MT. Nanto Ho-O Ken would be way more than enough to cut these androids, and Kenshiro is strong enough to use brute force to hurt them.



Exactly when was he moving so fast that he appeared to be standing still? You really don't have to answer that since it is irrelevant seeing as goku isn't here. The androids can't touch something that is intangible so they can't beat him. Kenshiro is possibly the greatest Martial Artist in Anime/Manga history and he adapts to his enemy's fighting style and learns their moves. If you can counter your enemy and predict their moves then speed means nothing as he did to Souther. Kenshiro isn't stronger than Vegeta and he couldn't hurt them with brute force before the Spirit and Time Room. And his godly reaction speeds is against people who are slower than him and weaker than him in every way. Android Saga Z Warriors are above any of the Hokuto or Nanto users by leagues. When has Kenshiro ever reacted to somebody faster? He always lets himself get hit then reacts to them after he's read them but he's always faster than the people to begin with. He just tests them.

Gokou moved so fast he wasn't able to be seen by Burta, Jeice, Krillen, Vegeta, or Gohan when he first gets to Namek.

i will answer that, when he was fighting Burter and Jeice form the Ginyu force, noone knew goku had even been moving, till they saw the grass around his feet was flat, and he would just apear behind burter, the self proclaimed fastest beign in the univer, alot fatser than kenshiro he saw krillin asif he was moving in slow motion when he went to throw a dragonball away!!Kenshiro is fast but multiplyign his strength speed durabiltiy everythign by 20 isnt gonna help him agaisnt opponetnts as powerful as the androids, hell vegeta from the saiyan saga cud beat him.

Wei Pheonix rember Androids 17/18 = Apocolypse !!

Kenshiro is an amazing fight ill give you that, but multiplying his power however many time sisnt gonna be enough to stop those too, not a chance

Souther was leagues above him in speed and got him. After that initial attack Kenshiro was able to counter him.

Here are some of his speed feats. Some include striking his brother's pressure points while blinded in less than a second.

wi38Q5_79Q0

zPVaWN6PvfA

Originally posted by BradBalboa
i will answer that, when he was fighting Burter and Jeice form the Ginyu force, noone knew goku had even been moving, till they saw the grass around his feet was flat, and he would just apear behind burter, the self proclaimed fastest beign in the univer, alot fatser than kenshiro he saw krillin asif he was moving in slow motion when he went to throw a dragonball away!!Kenshiro is fast but multiplyign his strength speed durabiltiy everythign by 20 isnt gonna help him agaisnt opponetnts as powerful as the androids, hell vegeta from the saiyan saga cud beat him.

SS Vegeta could not beat Kenshiro with KKx20. Hell Kenshiro would just instant kill him.

Jagi is full of fail. Using him being beaten by Ken even when Ken was almost like a pacifist isn't that great. And Ken could still SEE Souther's moves. Souther wasn't that much faster, Ken still was able to dodge and see his attacks. He won't be able to see that at all against the androids who will, and can blitz him before he can see them move.

SSJ Vegeta gets hit yea Ken can win but the odds of that happening are slim to none. Vegeta is stronger, faster, and more powerful. Ken may be the better fighter but when the enemy is so much more faster, and powerful is doesn't really matter. At best Ken could beat Krillen possibly at normal levels. 20x that still isn't a chance against ssj Vegeta when he fights 19.

Originally posted by Kento
Jagi is full of fail. Using him being beaten by Ken even when Ken was almost like a pacifist isn't that great. And Ken could still SEE Souther's moves. Souther wasn't that much faster, Ken still was able to dodge and see his attacks. He won't be able to see that at all against the androids who will, and can blitz him before he can see them move.

SSJ Vegeta gets hit yea Ken can win but the odds of that happening are slim to none. Vegeta is stronger, faster, and more powerful. Ken may be the better fighter but when the enemy is so much more faster, and powerful is doesn't really matter. At best Ken could beat Krillen possibly at normal levels. 20x that still isn't a chance against ssj Vegeta when he fights 19.

I meant SS as in Saiyan Saga. I'll post the rest but I gotta run.

Im wlel aware of kenshiros feats, but he cant compare to the awesome power of the androids, hell piccolo fused with the god of earth was barely even with 17, Kenshiro-" You two cant possibly contened with the power of Hakto Shinken"..17-"18 Just who does this guy think he is".18-"i dont knwo 17, whattya say we teac him a lesson" 17-"hmph good idea"..... 10 second later 17-"well what a surprise, another weakling"...

You do realize that none of the guys that the Androids fought had a fighting style that was like the Hokuto Shinken, right? And what are the actual speed feats of the Androids anyway? You're just simply naming other fighters' feats but seriously, the androids haven't shown anything that can compete with the Muso Tensei.

Originally posted by Kento
Jagi is full of fail. Using him being beaten by Ken even when Ken was almost like a pacifist isn't that great.

Of course it is. This was way back when they were only in training. It's not like Kenshiro was far above him like he was later on.

well the androids where considerably fast than all of the z fighters, all of whom are vastly superior to kenshiro in speed!! plus hakto shinken wont work on the androids for any reasons !!

It actually will work since they're technically not androids.

I don't think just simply saying they're faster is enough. I am well aware of the the Z fighters speed feats that happened before they fought the androids, but that doesn't mean everybody after that can do the same thing.

..there far faster stronger, yes they can, and true the androids where humn but they are mostly human and pressure point attacks from a human wont do shit. seriously all increaing kenshiro strength will do is ensure that kenshiro brakes his arm when he hits 17 or 18....u need to go bak and re-watch or re-read sum Dragonball manga, goku flys from oen side of the planet namek to the other in seconds!! and thats before he starst actually tryign and before sjj, before 3 years of traning for the androids, and 17/18 are still far fast than him !!!

Originally posted by BradBalboa
..there far faster stronger, yes they can, and true the androids where human but they are mostlymechanical, barley any human left in them apart from from the evidence shown the reproductive organs, and pressure point attacks from a human wont do shit. seriously all increaing kenshiro strength will do is ensure that kenshiro brakes his arm when he hits 17 or 18....u need to go bak and re-watch or re-read sum Dragonball manga, goku flys from oen side of the planet namek to the other in seconds!! and thats before he starst actually tryign and before sjj, before 3 years of traning for the androids, and 17/18 are still far fast than him !!!

Originally posted by BradBalboa
..there far faster stronger, yes they can, and true the androids where humn but they are mostly human and pressure point attacks from a human wont do shit. seriously all increaing kenshiro strength will do is ensure that kenshiro brakes his arm when he hits 17 or 18....u need to go bak and re-watch or re-read sum Dragonball manga, goku flys from oen side of the planet namek to the other in seconds!! and thats before he starst actually tryign and before sjj, before 3 years of traning for the androids, and 17/18 are still far fast than him !!!

But how far did Goku fly? And since when did the androids suddenly get this super durability that you're speaking of? I don't recall such a thing.

As for them being "far" faster, stronger, well what actual speed feats show this? I've never seen them do Goku's speed feat when he was fighting Burter and Jeice but it makes no sense to say they could somehow do it too. I wish you would mention feats for the androids themselves, as I've yet to see them show any combat speed Kenshiro shows. If they end up fighting him close, they would definitely lose, as they leave themselves open for Kenshiro to hit their pressure points (which WILL do something, by the way).

It states in the Mnag that frieza vegeat gohan krillin and piccolo where on the other side of the Planet and goku flew ther practically instantly !! well since the androids are far faster/ stronger they can do those things a DBZ feat is usually someone speedblitzing someone which the adroids cna do easy. Watch android 17 vs piccolo again, that might jog ur memory of the androids power...

I've seen it and that's still not enough. The only thing that was really worth mentioning was when he was in the water. The other times when they were fighting up close, 17 got tagged by surprise at times. If he was to screw up that much while fighting Kenshiro, he'd be dead in no time.

In the translation I'm reading, Goku said that they weren't far so that may explain why he got there pretty fast.

Originally posted by SmashBro
You do realize that none of the guys that the Androids fought had a fighting style that was like the Hokuto Shinken, right? And what are the actual speed feats of the Androids anyway? You're just simply naming other fighters' feats but seriously, the androids haven't shown anything that can compete with the Muso Tensei.



Of course it is. This was way back when they were only in training. It's not like Kenshiro was far above him like he was later on. Ken was always way above Jagi even then. He just didn't want to fight his brothers. That's why Ken could hit all his pressure points in a pass without Jagi even realizing it, why Jagi didn't realize Ken was the reason he couldn't move before Ken wailed on him. Jagi wasn't anything to any of the Nanto or Hokuto users. He was useless.

Ken hasn't fought anybody with the speed or power of the Androids. Doesn't mean anything. Kenshiro's fighting style won't get him the win if he can't even see to do anything.

Lets see...Can't use feats from vastly weaker characters from a series that are all the same exact powersets? And Ken still has to be able to activate Musou Tensei..and hit the androids.

Originally posted by Kento
Ken was always way above Jagi even then. He just didn't want to fight his brothers. That's why Ken could hit all his pressure points in a pass without Jagi even realizing it, why Jagi didn't realize Ken was the reason he couldn't move before Ken wailed on him. Jagi wasn't anything to any of the Nanto or Hokuto users. He was useless.

Ken hasn't fought anybody with the speed or power of the Androids. Doesn't mean anything. Kenshiro's fighting style won't get him the win if he can't even see to do anything.

Lets see...Can't use feats from vastly weaker characters from a series that are all the same exact powersets? And Ken still has to be able to activate Musou Tensei..and hit the androids.

At that time Kenshiro wasn't way above Jagi, he was still learning and still below Toki and Raoh. Don't try to downplay the feat because the person who did it grew up to be a jobber of HNK. He wasn't totally useless, he did start off the whole story of HNK. Fact is that he was still able to hit someone's points while blinded. Like I said even if they do hit Ken first he is durable enough to take the blows and absorb their style. He has actual better strength feats than the androids. He has been seen lifting way more than any android has.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
At that time Kenshiro wasn't way above Jagi, he was still learning and still below Toki and Raoh. Don't try to downplay the feat because the person who did it grew up to be a jobber of HNK. He wasn't totally useless, he did start off the whole story of HNK. Fact is that he was still able to hit someone's points while blinded. Like I said even if they do hit Ken first he is durable enough to take the blows and absorb their style. He has actual better strength feats than the androids. He has been seen lifting way more than any android has. All the flashbacks prove Ken was always was above Jagi. Ken not wanting to beat his brother was the only reason he seemed weaker. Just because Ken was weaker than Toki and Rao doesn't mean he was in the same league as Jagi.
He was useless. He wasn't a good fighter, always resorted to cheating, and was the weakest user of the Hokuto or Nanto's by a lot. Vegeta has better strength feats than anybody else in Z during the android saga but his strength was useless against 18 and she easily broke his arm with a kick while not even trying. Even IF Ken had the strength to harm them, which is doubtful, he'd still never touch them. Everything Ken has done in speed Gokou has done when vastly weaker than the androids. Moving so fast while fighting nobody noticing him move, Gokou did against Recoome when he attacks, and then again against Burta and Jeice. And the Androids have the exact same power set so anything a weaker Gokou, Vegeta, or any other Z fighter or villain has done they can easily replicate. They may not have the finesse that Ken has when it comes to fighting but what they lack in style they make up for in pure speed, and power.

I've seen Vegeta's strength feats prior to his fight with 18 but I don't recall any of them being more impressive than Ken's.

One finger pushups in 400x Earth Gravity beats Ken imo.

Kenshiro's strength feats. Some of them aren't that impressive, some of them are extremely impressive seeing as he is a human.

fnuNWKudq0s

Those rocks were like incredibly heavy, like over 500 tons, maybe even 1000.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Kenshiro's strength feats. Some of them aren't that impressive, some of them are extremely impressive seeing as he is a human.

fnuNWKudq0s

Those rocks were like incredibly heavy, like over 500 tons, maybe even 1000.

even after lifting such a heavy boulder didn't tire him. and he can stop a train without even touching it(only with his aura). and lots more. Kenshiro is badass. I wonder what will happened if he can use kaioken 20x...

Originally posted by SmashBro
I've seen it and that's still not enough. The only thing that was really worth mentioning was when he was in the water. The other times when they were fighting up close, 17 got tagged by surprise at times. If he was to screw up that much while fighting Kenshiro, he'd be dead in no time.

In the translation I'm reading, Goku said that they weren't far so that may explain why he got there pretty fast. they werent far yeh, he said im closing in meaning he was trackin their Ki to find them, DBZ volume 10, it says on the bak "on the other side of the planet goku awakens within his healing capsule and streaks to the battlefield to turn the tide"..Plus your forgettign even gouk feats as a child where on kens and Above kens level multiplying kens power by 20, isnt gonan make a difference when fighting 17 and 18...

Originally posted by BradBalboa
they werent far yeh, he said im closing in meaning he was trackin their Ki to find them, DBZ volume 10, it says on the bak "on the other side of the planet goku awakens within his healing capsule and streaks to the battlefield to turn the tide"..Plus your forgettign even gouk feats as a child where on kens and Above kens level multiplying kens power by 20, isnt gonan make a difference when fighting 17 and 18...

Well they could have just been referring to that specific area when they said "on the other side of the planet", as we know that they weren't too far away.

As for kid Goku's feats, I wouldn't be so sure of that if I were you. Sure Goku did have a lot of impressive feats as a child but to say they were all on par with Kenshiro's, that's something you might wanna rethink, especially in terms of strenght feats.

You do realize that Goku himself said "it's not very far off", and in the manga I've read it never said anything about being on the other side of the planet. Not to mention that no timeframe was ever given anyway so it's kind of pointless.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You do realize that Goku himself said "it's not very far off", and in the manga I've read it never said anything about being on the other side of the planet. Not to mention that no timeframe was ever given anyway so it's kind of pointless. do you have the manga on your computer ?? or do you have the actual manga book, caus ethats what i have and thats what it sasy on the back, that frieza and the others where on the other side of the planet for goku and he gets there in a few frames, even in the anime he gets there in seconds..

As for Gokus childhood feats, in the firts issue of the Manga before any real trainging Goku lifts bulmas car above his head and throws it, lifts boulders out of the ground bigger than himelf and crushed them with wide open arms. Yamcha even lifted a tower of emperoer pilafs castle of bulma, anywho i cnat see kenshiro lasting agaisnt the androids, they took out all the z fighters with little effort eahc of which is far more powerful than kenshiro even if his powers are multiplied 20X

Originally posted by BradBalboa
As for Gokus childhood feats, in the firts issue of the Manga before any real trainging Goku lifts bulmas car above his head and throws it, lifts boulders out of the ground bigger than himelf and crushed them with wide open arms. Yamcha even lifted a tower of emperoer pilafs castle of bulma, anywho i cnat see kenshiro lasting agaisnt the androids, they took out all the z fighters with little effort eahc of which is far more powerful than kenshiro even if his powers are multiplied 20X

Kenshiro stopped a train with his aura, stop a giant with his backhand, make a waterfall flow upward with his aura, strike 708 times in a second. and IIRC little Goku lifted Bulma's motorcycle. not her car. even he struggled. Kenshiro's power is still above little Goku. so many power feats for Kenshiro and I think they are all above little Goku's feats.

I still have no idea if he can survived against androids if he can use kaioken 20x since I never see Kenshiro used kaioken.

Kenshiro gets raped. Their mechnical androiads. the only real once krillen wishs it. Also. These are the same people who tank blows from people who were Class 100 strength back in the Namek saga. These androids are the same androids that when struck by a sword from soemone who is around class 100 it broke.

Androids dominate

Originally posted by Csdabest
Kenshiro gets raped. Their mechnical androiads. the only real once krillen wishs it. Also. These are the same people who tank blows from people who were Class 100 strength back in the Namek saga. These androids are the same androids that when struck by a sword from soemone who is around class 100 it broke.

Androids dominate

Kenshiro is way above class 100 and that same sword would break on his body as well. Kenshiro will learn their body movements and counter easily. Without this upgrade he was already lifting 1000 ton rocks and a whole gang of people with ease. You also have no proof that any Z fighter can lift over 100 tons. When have they ever been seen lifting anything?

Originally posted by BradBalboa
As for Gokus childhood feats, in the firts issue of the Manga before any real trainging Goku lifts bulmas car above his head and throws it, lifts boulders out of the ground bigger than himelf and crushed them with wide open arms. Yamcha even lifted a tower of emperoer pilafs castle of bulma, anywho i cnat see kenshiro lasting agaisnt the androids, they took out all the z fighters with little effort eahc of which is far more powerful than kenshiro even if his powers are multiplied 20X

I really wish you would debate the androids and only use the androids feats instead of using Goku to do your battle. We are only accepting feats from each combatant. Also Kenshiro has done things that Goku will never be able to do like fighting while in a coma so you can't say that Goku has completely surpassed him.

Originally posted by Csdabest
Kenshiro gets raped. Their mechnical androiads. the only real once krillen wishs it. Also. These are the same people who tank blows from people who were Class 100 strength back in the Namek saga. These androids are the same androids that when struck by a sword from soemone who is around class 100 it broke.

Androids dominate Krillen wished the bombs out of them because they were already real.
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Kenshiro is way above class 100 and that same sword would break on his body as well. Kenshiro will learn their body movements and counter easily. Without this upgrade he was already lifting 1000 ton rocks and a whole gang of people with ease. You also have no proof that any Z fighter can lift over 100 tons. When have they ever been seen lifting anything? Kenshiro wouldn't be able to see them to counter. He was able to dodge Souther, barley but still able. That is the only reason he could read Souther's moves. The Androids are far above Ken in speed that he won't have that chance to see them to read their attacks. Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
I really wish you would debate the androids and only use the androids feats instead of using Goku to do your battle. We are only accepting feats from each combatant. Also Kenshiro has done things that Goku will never be able to do like fighting while in a coma so you can't say that Goku has completely surpassed him.

Gokou's feats are perfectly usable for the androids. Because everybody in the series have the same exact powerset. Anything Gokou has done from the android saga down to the start of DB is also within anybodies abilitiy who is stronger. Which include the androids. Anything from Cell Saga Gokou and up isn't usable for the Androids but that's besides the point because Gokou is stronger.

Kenshiro was able to see Han's movements and fists before that it was said that no one could see the shadows of Han's fists. He also saw Uighar's whips and tied them up together without anyone knowing or seeing it. Kenshiro has pinpointed a target from a mile away and hit him with a spear with extreme accuracy. Once again this is Ken with an upgrade so all of his skills and abilities are amped. Saying he can't keep up with them is like saying base goku can't see the androids. The androids haven't even exhibited great combat speed above the norm that Ken usually fights. He has blocked the whole image fists fighters with ease and he has fought and blocked while he appears to be standing still. Show me one scene where the androids fight faster than that. Even if you can show me that then it only means that Kenshiro can do what the androids can do without his upgrade.

Originally posted by Kento
Gokou's feats are perfectly usable for the androids. Because everybody in the series have the same exact powerset. Anything Gokou has done from the android saga down to the start of DB is also within anybodies abilitiy who is stronger. Which include the androids. Anything from Cell Saga Gokou and up isn't usable for the Androids but that's besides the point because Gokou is stronger.

Not really. If they actually display all the other feats, then maybe but we can't just apply everybody's feats to anybody stronger. Plus, you also forget that many characters also have their own unique abilities.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Not really. If they actually display all the other feats, then maybe but we can't just apply everybody's feats to anybody stronger. Plus, you also forget that many characters also have their own unique abilities.

Which is why I don't give Andriod 20 or 19 the title of a planet buster. I hear a bunch of talk of them being class 100 strength but they never shown anything at that level, never lifted it or anything where Kenshiro has been shown lifting over 1000 tons.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Kenshiro was able to see Han's movements and fists before that it was said that no one could see the shadows of Han's fists. He also saw Uighar's whips and tied them up together without anyone knowing or seeing it. Kenshiro has pinpointed a target from a mile away and hit him with a spear with extreme accuracy. Once again this is Ken with an upgrade so all of his skills and abilities are amped. Saying he can't keep up with them is like saying base goku can't see the androids. The androids haven't even exhibited great combat speed above the norm that Ken usually fights. He has blocked the whole image fists fighters with ease and he has fought and blocked while he appears to be standing still. Show me one scene where the androids fight faster than that. Even if you can show me that then it only means that Kenshiro can do what the androids can do without his upgrade. Kenshiro wouldn't even be as fast as base Gokou during the androids saga so that's pointless.

At the start of Gokou's training with Korin, Korin was able to steal Gokou's DB without Gokou even knowing, and Gokou was already as fast as Roshi who can catch machine gun fire easily, and in just three days Gokou caught up to that speed of Korin. Tao Pai Pai was able to kill a guy with his tongue. Gokou easily surpassed his strength as a child. Gokou's body as a kid, before any of his training from Roshi or Korin, was already strong as steel and his durability has only increased. During the first tournament Tien is in Gokou is able to move so fast Roshi nor Krillen can see him during his fight with Krillen. And at the same tournament was able to steal Roshi's glasses before Tien could finish the Solar Flare, and get back to the spot he was in without Roshi even noticing.

Kenshiro is at the most in leagues with Saiyan Saga when it comes to speed and that's giving him the benifit of the doubt. Making him 20 times faster isn't going to put him even close to Androids speed. He isn't going to be able to see them, he isn't going to be able to dodge them, and he isn't going to be able to counter them. The androids may not have the speed feats themselves like the fighters from DB but they fact that they are faster than the Z fighters during the android saga means they can do everything to a much, much higher level than the DB fighters did.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Not really. If they actually display all the other feats, then maybe but we can't just apply everybody's feats to anybody stronger. Plus, you also forget that many characters also have their own unique abilities. That anybody else can learn. They have the same exact powerset. Them using different attacks don't mean anything at all. It's all about power scaling in DB.

Originally posted by Kento
Kenshiro is at the most in leagues with Saiyan Saga when it comes to speed and that's giving him the benifit of the doubt. Making him 20 times faster isn't going to put him even close to Androids speed. He isn't going to be able to see them, he isn't going to be able to dodge them, and he isn't going to be able to counter them. The androids may not have the speed feats themselves like the fighters from DB but they fact that they are faster than the Z fighters during the android saga means they can do everything to a much, much higher level than the DB fighters did.

He's ABOVE the Saiyan Saga. Nobody in that saga has ever shown the speed Kenshiro showed during his fight with Han and even before that, Kenshiro was doing so many things in less than a second.

Originally posted by Kento
That anybody else can learn. They have the same exact powerset. Them using different attacks don't mean anything at all. It's all about power scaling in DB.

They can fly and shoot ki blasts but that's it. Just simply beating someone doesn't mean they can do everything the other characters did. All do know is that they're strong enough to beat certain characters and what they do during the fight. Saying that the androids can inherit every single feat prior to that is just an assumption.

Originally posted by SmashBro
He's leagues ABOVE the Saiyan Saga. Nobody in that saga has ever shown the speed Kenshiro showed during his fight with Han and even before that, Kenshiro was doing so many things in less than a second.



They can fly and shoot ki blasts but that's it. Just simply beating someone doesn't mean they can do everything the other characters did. All do know is that they're strong enough to beat certain characters and what they do during the fight. Saying that the androids can inherit every single feat prior to that is just an assumption. Roshi and Krillen did plenty of things in less than a second also during the first tournament.

The higher their ki is why they are able to blitz people, get faster than other people, and get more powerful. While strength may not be able to go to everybody speed feats, and blasting feats can go to anybody with a higher ki. Freeza would be able to blitz Reccome, Burta, and Jeice faster than Gokou did. But we don't see Freeza have any speed feats. Because Gokou was on his level when they fought, and every time Freeza powered up a new hero came that was on his level. That and Freeza liked toying with people and not use his full power. Majin Vegeta could blitz Cell Jr's just as easy as Gohan did but we never see Vegeta blitz anybody because he only fought stronger opponents.

I'm sorry Kento, but Kenshiro's reaction speed and combat reflexes are insane. The androids can be faster than him but he can still see them. As I have said Han and Uighar's whips appeared to move faster than them and he was able to see Han's fist so why couldn't he see them when they have no speed feats like that? Kenshiro will be durable enought to take blows from them and all it takes is one attack for him to learn their moves and counter accordingly.

Originally posted by Kento
Roshi and Krillen did plenty of things in less than a second also during the first tournament.

Which was probably just a joke moment.

Originally posted by Kento
The higher their ki is why they are able to blitz people, get faster than other people, and get more powerful. While strength may not be able to go to everybody speed feats, and blasting feats can go to anybody with a higher ki. Freeza would be able to blitz Reccome, Burta, and Jeice faster than Gokou did. But we don't see Freeza have any speed feats. Because Gokou was on his level when they fought, and every time Freeza powered up a new hero came that was on his level. That and Freeza liked toying with people and not use his full power. Majin Vegeta could blitz Cell Jr's just as easy as Gohan did but we never see Vegeta blitz anybody because he only fought stronger opponents.

Actually, Freeza did display some speed feats when fighting SS1 Goku. If I recall correctly, King Kai couldn't even keep up with them. As for Maijin Vegeta, yeah he could but then again, other than attacking a worn out Goku and the other weaker guys, Cell Jrs never really did anything all that impressive themselves.

oh my god.... seriously think ho far in the Dragonball mythos the androids are, each saga someone gets so powerful that no1 can see them, it happanes again and again ther always surpas their prior selves, the androids speeds and much much fatser than Kenshiro even 20X...

So in otherwords, you're saying every fight after the Krillen and Roshi fight was less than a second?

Originally posted by BradBalboa
oh my god.... seriously think ho far in the Dragonball mythos the androids are, each saga someone gets so powerful that no1 can see them, it happanes again and again ther always surpas their prior selves, the androids speeds and much much fatser than Kenshiro even 20X...

Where did you get that info from? What proof do you have that no one can see them? We can see them actually moving and fighting in every fight I saw. In Ken's fight with Han they were standing still and only moved like an inch but they appeared to be standing still. Look at the speed feats video I posted.

Well for one since Dragnball theyve been moving so fast that people couldnt see them, then they get to the point where more powerful people cant see them, as they all improve, no1 saw goku move agaisnt burter and jeice, not even vegeta after he had improved since his and gokus fight, you need to re watch DBZ alot of the time they just dissapear and all you can see is shockwaves...

Videl saw Gohan and didn't Hercule see Buu and Cell? Fact remains the same that Kenshiro can still move without being seen as well and he can teleport, something that androids can't do. He can also become intangible something the androids can't do.

your forgetting once gou and cell started fighting hurcule and the others couldnt see them, only the z fighters could, and gohan was so quick noone could see him...

To crush your argument that no one normal or human can see them fight.

Hercule watches the Buus fight.
a1cS8UBLETM

Bulma watches Vegeta and Zarbon.
57iPQa9wDe0

Even Dende, a non fighting Namek with no combat experience at all watched Frieza and even saw the blast coming that killed him.

Was the person who made this thread serious? Vs. both androids?

at 2:30 Hercule dodges Kid Buu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu1Yc4RDOeI&feature=PlayList&p=661C246EBAD409B1&playnext=1&index=42

Originally posted by Alan Kyder
Was the person who made this thread serious? Vs. both androids?

Yeah, seeing as I gave him an upgrade and he fights both of them in a separate round. I asked how he would do against them seperately as well. Do you know who Kenshiro is?

My bad, I didn't read the 1st part of the thread, I thought he was takin'im at once.

Originally posted by Alan Kyder
My bad, I didn't read the 1st part of the thread, I thought he was takin'im at once.

No if this was regular old Kenshiro then this would be a stomp in their favor, but I genuinely think that amplifying HSK by 20 times gives him the ability to win. He has already been shown lifting over 1000 tons and destroying a tank without a weapon or blast. He has already been shown surviving a grenade to the face with no pain, having tons of rocks fall of him with no bleeding or scars, a speeding train ran into him with no pain or flinching, the guy even fought while in a coma.

Oh dude you're a Jet Set fan?! Thought we were all dead.

Sure there are moments when normal people see the Z Fighters fight. But there are also moments when people see Ken fight also. And Ken seeing Han move doesn't mean he'll be able to see the androids. He was able to fight Han evenly of course he'd see him move.

And Mr. Satan never dodged Kid Buu. Fat Buu stopped Kid Buu from hitting Satan. That's why Fat Buu is spit out. And then before Kid Buu can attack Fat Buu saves him.

Also to mention most of the times that the Z fighters are seen fighting they aren't going all out because it's a tournament. All the Z Fighters were barely able to follow Cell and Gokou and they have higher reaction times than normal. The only time people seen them is when they were fighting in one place or blasting. Just like when Gokou got to Namek nobody could see him move at all. And against Krillen nobody could even see Gokou except Tien with his third eye because he was moving so fast and he was only 15 and vastly weaker than what he becomes. The more ki the more speed a person has. The amp may be unknown sure but 15 year old Gokou isn't going to be able to blitz 7 year old ssj Goten just because we seen 15 year old Gokou disappear from view while most of Goten and Trunks fight seemed to be seen. Mostly because they were both holding back. Radditz has blitzed both Gokou and Piccolo iirc. Gokou was able to punch faster than anybody but Tien could see also in the tournament Tien shows up in. To think he can't do that when he's 30 and vastly superior in skill and power is insane. He did it at least twice during that tournament. The only reason they knew he punched is because he held the stance and the person flew back so they assumed it was once when it was more.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Oh dude you're a Jet Set fan?! Thought we were all dead. Nope, some of us live on. I even signed a petition to Sega to make a JSR 3...that was 3 years ago.

Originally posted by Alan Kyder
Nope, some of us live on. I even signed a petition to Sega to make a JSR 3...that was 3 years ago. really your my here off topic
what your favorite jet Set song

Originally posted by IppoDLuffy
really your my hero off topic
what your favorite jet Set song

Originally posted by Kento
Sure there are moments when normal people see the Z Fighters fight. But there are also moments when people see Ken fight also. And Ken seeing Han move doesn't mean he'll be able to see the androids. He was able to fight Han evenly of course he'd see him move.

There were like only a FEW times when normal humans see Kenshiro move. Most of the times when he hit a pressure point, he's hardly ever seen.

Originally posted by Kento
And Mr. Satan never dodged Kid Buu. Fat Buu stopped Kid Buu from hitting Satan. That's why Fat Buu is spit out. And then before Kid Buu can attack Fat Buu saves him.

Also to mention most of the times that the Z fighters are seen fighting they aren't going all out because it's a tournament. All the Z Fighters were barely able to follow Cell and Gokou and they have higher reaction times than normal. The only time people seen them is when they were fighting in one place or blasting. Just like when Gokou got to Namek nobody could see him move at all. And against Krillen nobody could even see Gokou except Tien with his third eye because he was moving so fast and he was only 15 and vastly weaker than what he becomes. The more ki the more speed a person has. The amp may be unknown sure but 15 year old Gokou isn't going to be able to blitz 7 year old ssj Goten just because we seen 15 year old Gokou disappear from view while most of Goten and Trunks fight seemed to be seen. Mostly because they were both holding back. Radditz has blitzed both Gokou and Piccolo iirc. Gokou was able to punch faster than anybody but Tien could see also in the tournament Tien shows up in. To think he can't do that when he's 30 and vastly superior in skill and power is insane. He did it at least twice during that tournament. The only reason they knew he punched is because he held the stance and the person flew back so they assumed it was once when it was more.

It would make sense to think that a 15 year old Goku can't blitz a 7 year old SSJ Goten but at the same time, we can't base that on actual feats either. As you said, he, along with Trunks, were just holding back so we don't know the full extent of his abilities. Plus, you also gotta keep in mind that just because he's a SSJ doesn't mean you can apply all of SSJ Goku and Vegeta's feats to him as each of them all got a certain level in their SSJ forms.

Originally posted by SmashBro
There were like only a FEW times when normal humans see Kenshiro move. Most of the times when he hit a pressure point, he's hardly ever seen.



It would make sense to think that a 15 year old Goku can't blitz a 7 year old SSJ Goten but at the same time, we can't base that on actual feats either. As you said, he, along with Trunks, were just holding back so we don't know the full extent of his abilities. Plus, you also gotta keep in mind that just because he's a SSJ doesn't mean you can apply all of SSJ Goku and Vegeta's feats to him as each of them all got a certain level in their SSJ forms. And there are only a few times normal people see the Z Fighters. When they were much weaker or when they have held back.

Speed and power you can apply to Goten. Goten just has no skill but he's still just as powerful as Android Saga Vegeta at the very least. Weaker physically sure but just as fast and powerful. Anybody who is more powerful than Buu is going to be able to one-shot a planet without the chain reaction Namek had, and if you count Bardock movie as canon, the chain reaction Vegeta had. Which would include SSJ3 Gokou, and Mystic Gohan, not counting fusions. Because they have the same exact power. Trunks may have had to go ssj to move around in 100x earth gravity but that's because he's weaker physically than Gokou in the Namek Saga but he had the speed to actually land a hit on Vegeta and to take a hit from Vegeta who reacted on reflex though Vegeta wasn't at full power and Trunks was. Master Roshi was able to catch machine gun fire like it was nothing. 15 year old Gokou would be able to do that same thing yet the only other person we see do that is Gohan iirc when he was Great Saiyaman. Does that mean that GSM Gohan is only as fast as Roshi since Gohan doesn't really have any speed feats except that and blitzing the Cell Jr's? And because Gohan did it but Gokou or Vegeta haven't does that mean they can't even though they are more powerful in the Buu Saga than Gohan was when he did it? It's all power scaling. It's like Superman and any other Kryptonian that is weaker. Whatever they have done Superman could do the same thing while the reverse wouldn't be true.

Didn't somebody earlier say Cell Jr's only fought weakened people and did nothing impressive? Cell Jr's never fought weakened people. They were beating up on people who didn't even fight Cell and were perfectly fine, and Gohan blitzed them easily at ssj2, and punched right through them.

Originally posted by Kento
And there are only a few times normal people see the Z Fighters. When they were much weaker or when they have held back.

Depending on how weak they were.

Originally posted by Kento
Speed and power you can apply to Goten. Goten just has no skill but he's still just as powerful as Android Saga Vegeta at the very least. Weaker physically sure but just as fast and powerful. Anybody who is more powerful than Buu is going to be able to one-shot a planet without the chain reaction Namek had, and if you count Bardock movie as canon, the chain reaction Vegeta had. Which would include SSJ3 Gokou, and Mystic Gohan, not counting fusions. Because they have the same exact power. Trunks may have had to go ssj to move around in 100x earth gravity but that's because he's weaker physically than Gokou in the Namek Saga but he had the speed to actually land a hit on Vegeta and to take a hit from Vegeta who reacted on reflex though Vegeta wasn't at full power and Trunks was. Master Roshi was able to catch machine gun fire like it was nothing. 15 year old Gokou would be able to do that same thing yet the only other person we see do that is Gohan iirc when he was Great Saiyaman. Does that mean that GSM Gohan is only as fast as Roshi since Gohan doesn't really have any speed feats except that and blitzing the Cell Jr's? And because Gohan did it but Gokou or Vegeta haven't does that mean they can't even though they are more powerful in the Buu Saga than Gohan was when he did it? It's all power scaling. It's like Superman and any other Kryptonian that is weaker. Whatever they have done Superman could do the same thing while the reverse wouldn't be true.

Except there's a key difference there: all Kryptionians have the same abilities, unlike the Saiyans and anyone else in DBZ.

As for the other things you said, if they show speed that requires to do such things such as catch bullets or did something similar, yeah that would show that they could but that still not an excuse to say they're "faster" when they haven't done anything that shows it or that it was said by someone else. Plus you also gotta remember that power levels don't equal speed (like USSJ Vegeta and Trunks for example) or stamina (like SSJ3 Goku, which was after the Androids saga). Not saying that you said the latter but that's just an example.

Originally posted by Kento
Didn't somebody earlier say Cell Jr's only fought weakened people and did nothing impressive? Cell Jr's never fought weakened people. They were beating up on people who didn't even fight Cell and were perfectly fine, and Gohan blitzed them easily at ssj2, and punched right through them.

So what's so impressive? And I said they took out the "weaker" fighters, not weakened. Goku was the only one weakened but still, all of that wasn't really impresssive.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Depending on how weak they were.



Except there's a key difference there: all Kryptionians have the same abilities, unlike the Saiyans and anyone else in DBZ.

As for the other things you said, if they show speed that requires to do such things such as catch bullets or did something similar, yeah that would show that they could but that still not an excuse to say they're "faster" when they haven't done anything that shows it or that it was said by someone else. Plus you also gotta remember that power levels don't equal speed (like USSJ Vegeta and Trunks for example) or stamina (like SSJ3 Goku, which was after the Androids saga). Not saying that you said the latter but that's just an example.



So what's so impressive? And I said they took out the "weaker" fighters, not weakened. Goku was the only one weakened but still, all of that wasn't really impresssive. Everybody in DB has the same abilities. There power source is the exact same. The only difference is the attacks used. It's not like they can only use there attacks and the others are unusable. Everybody stealing Solar Flare, and flight prove that. Or Tien being able to see a move done once and being able to replicate it twice as powerful. They were all just trained in different fighting styles so learned different attacks. The only difference between Humans and Saiyans is durability and that saiyans are more powerful in general. Power level does equal speed though. Trunks amped his strength loosing speed which means they could amp strength but they don't. You never see a weaker character blitz a more powerful character ever in DB. Piccolo was beaten effortlessly by 17 and when he increases his ki by fusing with Kami they are equal. Ki has always be a speed amp. Strength also but speed was always the major thing that amped because they always train with things that amp it. Gravity, weights, and all that stuff. F. Trunks was the only time the speed and power were not together. Though I never understood Gokou's stamina thing because both Kid Buu and Gohan were more powerful but could control their energy. Unless it's just because it was a ssj transformation while the other two was regular levels.

All the human characters have their own incredible speed feats in DB when they were weaker and were blitzed by the Cell Jr's only to be in turn blitzed by Gohan. And Vegeta and Trunks are faster than any of the humans and still unable to defend themselves.

Originally posted by Kento
Everybody in DB has the same abilities. There power source is the exact same. The only difference is the attacks used. It's not like they can only use there attacks and the others are unusable. Everybody stealing Solar Flare, and flight prove that. Or Tien being able to see a move done once and being able to replicate it twice as powerful. They were all just trained in different fighting styles so learned different attacks. The only difference between Humans and Saiyans is durability and that saiyans are more powerful in general. Power level does equal speed though. Trunks amped his strength loosing speed which means they could amp strength but they don't. You never see a weaker character blitz a more powerful character ever in DB. Piccolo was beaten effortlessly by 17 and when he increases his ki by fusing with Kami they are equal. Ki has always be a speed amp. Strength also but speed was always the major thing that amped because they always train with things that amp it. Gravity, weights, and all that stuff. F. Trunks was the only time the speed and power were not together. Though I never understood Gokou's stamina thing because both Kid Buu and Gohan were more powerful but could control their energy. Unless it's just because it was a ssj transformation while the other two was regular levels.

Everyone didn't steal Solar Flare or flight. They had to be taught how to do those, just like they had to be taught how to do the other techniques. Not everybody can just copy attacks. The point about Trunks is that despite having a higher ki level than what was previously shown, he was still pretty slow. Same also went for Cell, who used a similar ability. If ki=speed, then such a situation wouldn't have happened. That's exactly why they do have to train with the heavy gravity and weights. Just ki alone won't cut it.

Originally posted by Kento
All the human characters have their own incredible speed feats in DB when they were weaker and were blitzed by the Cell Jr's only to be in turn blitzed by Gohan. And Vegeta and Trunks are faster than any of the humans and still unable to defend themselves.

None of them displayed any type of speed that they previously showed. That and they weren't really prepared for this in the first place.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Everyone didn't steal Solar Flare or flight. They had to be taught how to do those, just like they had to be taught how to do the other techniques. Not everybody can just copy attacks. The point about Trunks is that despite having a higher ki level than what was previously shown, he was still pretty slow. Same also went for Cell, who used a similar ability. If ki=speed, then such a situation wouldn't have happened. That's exactly why they do have to train with the heavy gravity and weights. Just ki alone won't cut it.



None of them displayed any type of speed that they previously showed. That and they weren't really prepared for this in the first place. Just like you have are taught a style. It's within all their powersets to do the same thing. They just use different attacks because they were taught them by their masters, or in Vegeta's (and probably Future Trunks) case created their own ki attacks. It's because they bulked up. Not one other case has been like that. Every amp of ki has always been speed. Vegeta was owned easily by Zarbon. Him being beaten and healed amped his ki and was able to in return own Zarbon. Gohan got angry during the Radditz part of the Saiyan Saga and his ki skyrocketed and he was able to hit Radditz who was owning Piccolo and Gokou in speed. Gokou went from being Ginyu's level before getting hurt to being able to keep up with Freeza after healing and his ki amp from that no training at all. Vegeta went from loosing to Recoome to fighting Jeice evenly who was even faster than Recoome. Then there is also Piccolo fusing with Kami. That ki amp from being beaten effortlessly to being able to keep up with 17 without any training just a ki amp. Out of all the times ki amping has equaled speed amping twice by people who just bulked up to get strong doesn't negate that ki does equal speed. While how much faster is unknown I think it's safe to say their speed increases at least half of what their power increases. At the very least since they go from being blitzed to being able to blitz after getting more powerful.

Originally posted by Kento
Just like you have are taught a style. It's within all their powersets to do the same thing. They just use different attacks because they were taught them by their masters, or in Vegeta's (and probably Future Trunks) case created their own ki attacks. It's because they bulked up. Not one other case has been like that. Every amp of ki has always been speed. Vegeta was owned easily by Zarbon. Him being beaten and healed amped his ki and was able to in return own Zarbon. Gohan got angry during the Radditz part of the Saiyan Saga and his ki skyrocketed and he was able to hit Radditz who was owning Piccolo and Gokou in speed. Gokou went from being Ginyu's level before getting hurt to being able to keep up with Freeza after healing and his ki amp from that no training at all. Vegeta went from loosing to Recoome to fighting Jeice evenly who was even faster than Recoome. Then there is also Piccolo fusing with Kami. That ki amp from being beaten effortlessly to being able to keep up with 17 without any training just a ki amp. Out of all the times ki amping has equaled speed amping twice by people who just bulked up to get strong doesn't negate that ki does equal speed. While how much faster is unknown I think it's safe to say their speed increases at least half of what their power increases. At the very least since they go from being blitzed to being able to blitz after getting more powerful.

Vegeta really had no idea that Zarbon had a second form so he wasn't really prepared for that. The second time they fought, Vegeta was more than prepared since he knew what to expect and he was stronger. And yeah, Gohan was able to hurt Raditz who was faster than Goku and Piccolo, however, that doesn't mean he was faster than Raditz (who was still in shock anyway). Also, if I recall correctly, despite hurting Raditz, Gohan's power level was still lower. And what's so impressive about beaten Jeice? He could have been weaker than Recoome. As for 17 and Piccolo, they barely even fought the first time. 17 got in like, what? Two hits? And it sure wasn't very fast since Krillen was able to see him do them too. That's why we need to go by what we see instead of speculating.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Vegeta really had no idea that Zarbon had a second form so he wasn't really prepared for that. The second time they fought, Vegeta was more than prepared since he knew what to expect and he was stronger. And yeah, Gohan was able to hurt Raditz who was faster than Goku and Piccolo, however, that doesn't mean he was faster than Raditz (who was still in shock anyway). Also, if I recall correctly, despite hurting Raditz, Gohan's power level was still lower. And what's so impressive about beaten Jeice? He could have been weaker than Recoome. As for 17 and Piccolo, they barely even fought the first time. 17 got in like, what? Two hits? And it sure wasn't very fast since Krillen was able to see him do them too. That's why we need to go by what we see instead of speculating.

http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.15974/page.4/

Radditz was 1200 and he was able to dodge Special Beam Cannon after being surprised by it but Gohan was able to hit him.

Recoome was the fourth slowest in the Ginyu and fourth weakest. Jeice was much faster and he was able to blitz Vegeta when he actually tried. Jeice and Burta even say Recoome was weaker.

Piccolo was put down in two hits, and easily dodged while attacking from behind to fighting evenly and not being effortlessly dodged.

Originally posted by Kento
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.15974/page.4/

Radditz was 1200 and he was able to dodge Special Beam Cannon after being surprised by it but Gohan was able to hit him.

Recoome was the fourth slowest in the Ginyu and fourth weakest. Jeice was much faster and he was able to blitz Vegeta when he actually tried. Jeice and Burta even say Recoome was weaker.

Piccolo was put down in two hits, and easily dodged while attacking from behind to fighting evenly and not being effortlessly dodged.

1. Okay, so? Raditz wasn't really all that surprised by Piccolo's attack. He did have that "What the..." look on his face but it's not like he was in total shock by it.

2. When did they say that?

3. Piccolo only threw out just one hit that was easily dodged. It's the hits alone that really put him out, not the speed.

Originally posted by SmashBro
1. Okay, so? Raditz wasn't really all that surprised by Piccolo's attack. He did have that "What the..." look on his face but it's not like he was in total shock by it.

2. When did they say that?

3. Piccolo only threw out just one hit that was easily dodged. It's the hits alone that really put him out, not the speed. He was in shock by it's power just like he was in shock of Gohan's power because Piccolo was weak but could make such a blast and Gohan suddenly got powerful.

Hmm I misread Jeice's comment. Still doesn't change the fact that they were all around the same level and speed and Recoome was blitzing Vegeta and with his ki amp Vegeta was able to beat Jeice.

Piccolo attacked him from behind after 17 hit Trunks rushing at him was kicked away without any effort then hit him again after dodging Piccolos second attack easily.. And I never said speed was what put him out just that Piccolo wasn't able to even get any hits in or have a chance against 17 until his ki amp by fusing with Kami.

KI=Power

a Guys power(Ki)reading is their speed,strength,durability,stamina...

Originally posted by Kento
He was in shock by it's power just like he was in shock of Gohan's power because Piccolo was weak but could make such a blast and Gohan suddenly got powerful.

Hmm I misread Jeice's comment. Still doesn't change the fact that they were all around the same level and speed and Recoome was blitzing Vegeta and with his ki amp Vegeta was able to beat Jeice.

Piccolo attacked him from behind after 17 hit Trunks rushing at him was kicked away without any effort then hit him again after dodging Piccolos second attack easily.. And I never said speed was what put him out just that Piccolo wasn't able to even get any hits in or have a chance against 17 until his ki amp by fusing with Kami.

1. He wasn't in shock of Piccolo's power. His reaction to it was much different from how he reacted to Gohan's.

2. I don't see how they were all around the same level. They each had something unique about them that the others didn't.

3. Well that kind of sounded similar. My mistake.

Originally posted by BradBalboa
KI=Power

a Guys power(Ki)reading is their speed,strength,durability,stamina...

No it doesn't, especially if you look at SSJ3 Goku, who could only keep his form for a few minutes.

Originally posted by BradBalboa
KI=Power

a Guys power(Ki)reading is their speed,strength,durability,stamina...

Burter was the fastest of the Ginyu force and Ginyu was stronger than him.

Originally posted by SmashBro
1. He wasn't in shock of Piccolo's power. His reaction to it was much different from how he reacted to Gohan's.

2. I don't see how they were all around the same level. They each had something unique about them that the others didn't.

3. Well that kind of sounded similar. My mistake.



No it doesn't, especially if you look at SSJ3 Goku, who could only keep his form for a few minutes. It was pretty much the same. He was surprised by the power they were generating. He looked at both in shock. Though Piccolo's attack was more powerful than Gohan's own ki was. With Piccolo he was in the middle of fighting Gokou and with Gohan he was just talking.

Recoome, Burta, and Jeice all seemed pretty much the same in what they showed. Gokou blitzed them all easily, and Burta didn't move any faster than Jeice for his so called being the fastest person in the universe. Which was a lie anyway because Gokou wasn't able to blitz Ginyu that well while he was able to do it to Jeice and Burta both easily.

for god sake , kenshiro is not just slower, he is also weaker and has much less stamina(the androids never get tired) . Also, many of kens strongest moves aim at the vital points of a human body...does an android have taht kind of thing???of course not, that is why they dont even have ki/chi. Against the androids pressure points and that kind of stuff are useless, but ken doesnt know that

Ken wouldnt last long, hes no Future Gohan :P

Future Gohan wouldn't last against the present times androids either.

Still Gohan fought of both Androids with only one arm, considering 17/18 here consided the most powerful 2 in the universe at the time thats pretty good feat

He only fought them once with one arm didn't he? And thats when he lost.

Still he lasted, and overpowered them and got the better of them at times....

Well I actually think Gohan > Them individually since they weren't that much more powerful than Future Trunks when he first came to the past.

Originally posted by Kento
It was pretty much the same. He was surprised by the power they were generating. He looked at both in shock. Though Piccolo's attack was more powerful than Gohan's own ki was. With Piccolo he was in the middle of fighting Gokou and with Gohan he was just talking.

His expression looked very different to me.

Originally posted by Hoshi
for god sake , kenshiro is not just slower, he is also weaker and has much less stamina(the androids never get tired) . Also, many of kens strongest moves aim at the vital points of a human body...does an android have taht kind of thing???of course not, that is why they dont even have ki/chi. Against the androids pressure points and that kind of stuff are useless, but ken doesnt know that

Again, they're not really androids. That's why 18 was able to have a kid.

Did you see any of the strength and speed feats that were posted here? Don't underestimate Kenshiro.

http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.15972/page.13/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.15973/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.15973/page.2/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.15973/page.3/


http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.15974/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.15974/page.2/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.15974/page.3/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.15974/page.4/
http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.15974/page.5/


Dunno all looks the same to me. Attacking Gokou, huge power increase from somebody weak, and him looking straight at them.

Well now that I see it again, there are some similarities but during the Piccolo part, it seems like he was attempting to do something and even had a somewhat cocky look for a moment. During the Gohan part, he didn't do anything but looked shocked.

Well it's from two different issues. So it shows Piccolo fire it twice and his reaction twice while cutting out dialogue. Because he turns his head surprised and then looks scared as it's coming before it hits.http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.15973/page.4/

Though I wonder if Akira forgot stuff between that issue or just didn't show Radditz move. Because he's standing over Gokou in the first issue and then he's far away from Gokou when Piccolo fires in the next issue.

Originally posted by Hoshi
for god sake , kenshiro is not just slower, he is also weaker and has much less stamina(the androids never get tired) . Also, many of kens strongest moves aim at the vital points of a human body...does an android have taht kind of thing???of course not, that is why they dont even have ki/chi. Against the androids pressure points and that kind of stuff are useless, but ken doesnt know that

Ken gets Kaio Ken times 20 here and what is stopping Kenshiro from cutting the androids into pieces?

True they have limitless stamina but Kenshiro has more than enough stamina to stay in this fight and win. Toki was able to survive a nuclear holocaust for two weeks without food water or shelter.

Originally posted by BradBalboa
Ken wouldnt last long, hes no Future Gohan :P

Gohan didn't have training in Hokuto Shinken.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Ken gets Kaio Ken times 20 here and what is stopping Kenshiro from cutting the androids into pieces?

True they have limitless stamina but Kenshiro has more than enough stamina to stay in this fight and win. Toki was able to survive a nuclear holocaust for two weeks without food water or shelter.



Gohan didn't have training in Hokuto Shinken.

Whats stopping Ken from doing anything to the Androids is speed. They have easily more than enough speed to keep away from him and they can do it forever as they will never run out of energy or tire. And the fact that they can and will beat him senseless.

Kaio Ken should give him the speed boost needed and MT and his already insane durability should help keep them from beating him senseless.

Kaioken would NOT give him the speed to do anything at all. MT would only save him from being hit...but would be useless to actually hit them. And the fact he still doesn't have time to activate it before they would beat him senseless means he gets beaten. There is nothing putting him on the level of anything past saiyan saga if even that. And 20x that speed isn't going to help.

I still can't say that. Ken's done way more faster things than the Saiyan Saga and with the many kind of speed feats he has, he definitely can tag the Androids with the Muso Tensei. None of their speed feats are comparable to Ken's.

Except Kenshiro's speed feats are pretty much on par with DB speed feats, and the androids have proven themselves above them by being above the people who did said speed feats who themselves in Z have shown that they get faster as they get stronger.

And yet hardly any of them have shown how much faster they are since DB and the Androids lack any speed feats of their own.

Except Radditz was able to blitz them like they were nothing even after all their speed feats in DB. And then Gokou went from having to use Kaiokenx3 to blitz Vegeta to being able to move so fast Vegeta couldn't even see him moving at all. Vegeta then went from being blitzed easily by Recoome to fighting Freeza's first form. The fact that they get faster each time they get more powerful and they've gotten millions of times more powerful literally and the villains of the time are still able to easily beat them before some power-up or something shows they have gotten a whole lot faster. More than 20x...Gokou wasn't barley able to keep up with half power Freeza using 20xKaioken, and was still on the beating end.

Except that Raditz's own speed feats weren't any more impressive than theirs and that even weaker fighters have been able to tag stronger ones. Plus, I don't recall them literally being millions of times stronger.

I don't really get the appeal of this thread.

"Would Kenshiro beat 17 and 18 if he was stronger?"

Kinda defeats the purpose of a vs thread.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Except that Raditz's own speed feats weren't any more impressive than theirs and that even weaker fighters have been able to tag stronger ones. Plus, I don't recall them literally being millions of times stronger. Yea weaker fighters have..When the villain get cocky. Like Radditz against Gokou and Piccolo. Yet he's still able to blitz them easily. The fact that he can blitz them with their speed feats they had means he was faster speed feats or not.

Gokou and Piccolos power when Radditz came were like what 400 at most. SSJ Gokous against Freeze was like 120 million or 150 Million.

Originally posted by Kento
Yea weaker fighters have..When the villain get cocky. Like Radditz against Gokou and Piccolo. Yet he's still able to blitz them easily. The fact that he can blitz them with their speed feats they had means he was faster speed feats or not.

That doesn't mean his own speed feats were faster than theirs. And villains weren't cocky all the time when they got hit.

Originally posted by Kento
Gokou and Piccolos power when Radditz came were like what 400 at most. SSJ Gokous against Freeze was like 120 million or 150 Million.

Is this based on power levels? Because those are kind of inconsistent.

Originally posted by SmashBro
That doesn't mean his own speed feats were faster than theirs. And villains weren't cocky all the time when they got hit.



Is this based on power levels? Because those are kind of inconsistent. Vegeta was weakened when he was hit by weaker being, or Gokou had to amp his power 3x with Kaoikenx3. Radditz was cocky and tricked. Fat Buu wasn't paying attention. Cell was caught of guard by a large attack each time he was hit. 18 fooled around with Vegeta. And Nappa was ganged up on, and tricked. So there was always some kinda circumstance where a weaker being was able to hit a stronger, faster one. And it's mostly because they didn't know they were around or because they got to cocky.

Never said they got millions of times faster. Though it's safe to say they've gotten at least hundreds of times faster as SSJ is 50x multiplier of their speed, and power. I just said they got millions of times stronger..which they have. Power level = their power.

Originally posted by Kento
Vegeta was weakened when he was hit by weaker being, or Gokou had to amp his power 3x with Kaoikenx3. Radditz was cocky and tricked. Fat Buu wasn't paying attention. Cell was caught of guard by a large attack each time he was hit. 18 fooled around with Vegeta. And Nappa was ganged up on, and tricked. So there was always some kinda circumstance where a weaker being was able to hit a stronger, faster one. And it's mostly because they didn't know they were around or because they got to cocky.

What about Goku's fight with Ginyu? And with Freiza? Also, Raditz wasn't cocky or tricked when Gohan hit him. He was well aware of what was going on.

Originally posted by Kento
Never said they got millions of times faster. Though it's safe to say they've gotten at least hundreds of times faster as SSJ is 50x multiplier of their speed, and power. I just said they got millions of times stronger..which they have. Power level = their power.

In terms of ki power?

Originally posted by SmashBro
What about Goku's fight with Ginyu? And with Freiza? Also, Raditz wasn't cocky or tricked when Gohan hit him. He was well aware of what was going on.



In terms of ki power? Ginyu and Gokou were about the same level, and the fight stopped after Gokou powered up fully. And Freeza was cocky and holding back power, and Gokou was amping himself with Kaioken, and he also used some tricks during that fight. And Gohan was above Radditz in power.


Yea. And just like Kaioken amps speed and everything, SSJ does it to a higher degree and does it without the strain on the body. Until ssj3 comes along apparently.

Originally posted by Kento
Ginyu and Gokou were about the same level, and the fight stopped after Gokou powered up fully. And Freeza was cocky and holding back power, and Gokou was amping himself with Kaioken, and he also used some tricks during that fight. And Gohan was above Radditz in power.

Freeza was cocky but was still ahead of Goku. And seeing that so many fights involve both fighters fighting at the same speed, it just shows that they aren't THAT much faster than their opponents.

Originally posted by Kento
Yea. And just like Kaioken amps speed and everything, SSJ does it to a higher degree and does it without the strain on the body. Until ssj3 comes along apparently.

I still can't necessarily say that they got "millions of times stronger". Just sounds like speculation to me.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Freeza was cocky but was still ahead of Goku. And seeing that so many fights involve both fighters fighting at the same speed, it just shows that they aren't THAT much faster than their opponents.



I still can't necessarily say that they got "millions of times stronger". Just sounds like speculation to me. Not by much he wasn't. At least not by how much Gokou was amping his speed and how much Freeza was holding back. And no matter how fast you are you can't dodge something you don't see coming like what Gokou did to Freeza and coming up out of the water from far away, and using ki blasts to distract Freeza into thinking he was coming up from under him.

Weaker people can fight at the speed of stronger but only if they aren't much weaker. That's like saying Freeza wouldn't be blitzed by Cell. Or ssj2 Gohan would fight evenly with ssj Freeza Saga Gokou. It just wouldn't happen. Any time there is people fighting the same level there is a circumstance or the two people are close in power.

Originally posted by Kento
Not by much he wasn't. At least not by how much Gokou was amping his speed and how much Freeza was holding back. And no matter how fast you are you can't dodge something you don't see coming like what Gokou did to Freeza and coming up out of the water from far away, and using ki blasts to distract Freeza into thinking he was coming up from under him.

Weaker people can fight at the speed of stronger but only if they aren't much weaker. That's like saying Freeza wouldn't be blitzed by Cell. Or ssj2 Gohan would fight evenly with ssj Freeza Saga Gokou. It just wouldn't happen. Any time there is people fighting the same level there is a circumstance or the two people are close in power.

You sometimes gotta look at what kind of advantages and disadvantages they have. Speed isn't always the reason why they win. It could be strength or skills or firepower or simply another transformation.

Originally posted by SmashBro
You sometimes gotta look at what kind of advantages and disadvantages they have. Speed isn't always the reason why they win. It could be strength or skills or firepower or simply another transformation. Another transformation is usually why someone wins. But said thing boosts power and speed.

Since DB who has ever won because skill? And since Radditz who has won by firepower alone? Even at end of DB people were weight training and winning because of speed. Z is pretty basic. Higher power level = higher power, strength, and speed. With one exception Future Trunks who specifically sacrificed speed for strength.

Originally posted by Kento
Another transformation is usually why someone wins. But said thing boosts power and speed.

Since DB who has ever won because skill? And since Radditz who has won by firepower alone? Even at end of DB people were weight training and winning because of speed. Z is pretty basic. Higher power level = higher power, strength, and speed. With one exception Future Trunks who specifically sacrificed speed for strength.

Usually in DBZ fights, they start off as though they're fighting evenly until one of them gain the upperhand. That doesn't mean one was faster than the other. That could either be skill or the other person simply getting tired (as shown in Vegeta's fight with 18). As for the firepower, they usually either have an energy beam struggle or just a specific type of energy beam that eventually weakens or outright destroy their opponent, which is again, different from speed.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Usually in DBZ fights, they start off as though they're fighting evenly until one of them gain the upperhand. That doesn't mean one was faster than the other. That could either be skill or the other person simply getting tired (as shown in Vegeta's fight with 18). As for the firepower, they usually either have an energy beam struggle or just a specific type of energy beam that eventually weakens or outright destroy their opponent, which is again, different from speed. And those are usually done by people who are around the same level. Mostly the main villain at the time, and the hero that's the most powerful at the time. And then a stronger villain comes, and then Gokou or Gohan shows up.

I thik well al know by now, 17 and 18 or seperatly own kenshiro easyily

No they wouldn't.

17 solo and people just dont realize that all of the fights that dbz had, it was always slowed down for us to see it. Goku and frieza made 40 episodes off of a 5 minute fight. Tien punched yamcha as a teen 45 times in a second. Goku while fighting his puppet self as a child out raced a kamehameha. Goku during his fight with junior is stronger and more faster than ken. Didnt goku after his training with popo punch a tank across a desert and move bolders and was trained by popo to move faster then lightning. Didnt gokus fight against frieza, didnt his punches seperate clouds and didnt frieza punches create shock waves that was felt for miles and sent bulma flying. Didnt goku kick frieza through two mountains.

Ken wouldnt last a millisecond against a android, let alone krillin or nappa. This is a lop sided fight even though ken IS a beast.

Originally posted by carver9
Goku and frieza made 40 episodes off of a 5 minute fight. Episode lengths that shows other things, and has like scenes over again in the next episode does not a case make.

Originally posted by carver9
17 solo and people just dont realize that all of the fights that dbz had, it was always slowed down for us to see it. Goku and frieza made 40 episodes off of a 5 minute fight. Tien punched yamcha as a teen 45 times in a second. Goku while fighting his puppet self as a child out raced a kamehameha. Goku during his fight with junior is stronger and more faster than ken. Didnt goku after his training with popo punch a tank across a desert and move bolders and was trained by popo to move faster then lightning. Didnt gokus fight against frieza, didnt his punches seperate clouds and didnt frieza punches create shock waves that was felt for miles and sent bulma flying. Didnt goku kick frieza through two mountains.

Ken wouldnt last a millisecond against a android, let alone krillin or nappa. This is a lop sided fight even though ken IS a beast.

Actually it was only like 10 episodes most of which was them standing around talking,lots of long pauses and cutting back and forth to earth,king kai,gohan,bulma and so on and so on,them actually fighting really didn't take up that much time.

Originally posted by carver9
17 solo and people just dont realize that all of the fights that dbz had, it was always slowed down for us to see it. Goku and frieza made 40 episodes off of a 5 minute fight. Tien punched yamcha as a teen 45 times in a second. Goku while fighting his puppet self as a child out raced a kamehameha. Goku during his fight with junior is stronger and more faster than ken. Didnt goku after his training with popo punch a tank across a desert and move bolders and was trained by popo to move faster then lightning. Didnt gokus fight against frieza, didnt his punches seperate clouds and didnt frieza punches create shock waves that was felt for miles and sent bulma flying. Didnt goku kick frieza through two mountains.

Ken wouldnt last a millisecond against a android, let alone krillin or nappa. This is a lop sided fight even though ken IS a beast.

Eh Popo just said be as calm as the sky and move faster than lightning which is just a figure of speech and certainly doesn't mean he is anywhere near lightning speed as he doesn't have the feats for it,you might say he dodged lightning in the anime but it was in some crappy filler that contradicts other things.

Originally posted by carver9
17 solo and people just dont realize that all of the fights that dbz had, it was always slowed down for us to see it. Goku and frieza made 40 episodes off of a 5 minute fight. Tien punched yamcha as a teen 45 times in a second. Goku while fighting his puppet self as a child out raced a kamehameha. Goku during his fight with junior is stronger and more faster than ken. Didnt goku after his training with popo punch a tank across a desert and move bolders and was trained by popo to move faster then lightning. Didnt gokus fight against frieza, didnt his punches seperate clouds and didnt frieza punches create shock waves that was felt for miles and sent bulma flying. Didnt goku kick frieza through two mountains.

Ken wouldnt last a millisecond against a android, let alone krillin or nappa. This is a lop sided fight even though ken IS a beast.

The fact that you think Krillin or Nappa can beat Kenshiro is laughable.

And since when did the fights in DBZ "slowed down"? This might can be argued for a few scenes but this can't be said about all fights.

Man... are you serious. DBZ shits on Kenshiro. Since The Saiyan Saga came about.

That depends on which characters. Not all of them can beat Kenshiro, that's for sure.

Originally posted by carver9
17 solo and people just dont realize that all of the fights that dbz had, it was always slowed down for us to see it. Goku and frieza made 40 episodes off of a 5 minute fight. Tien punched yamcha as a teen 45 times in a second. Goku while fighting his puppet self as a child out raced a kamehameha. Goku during his fight with junior is stronger and more faster than ken. Didnt goku after his training with popo punch a tank across a desert and move bolders and was trained by popo to move faster then lightning. Didnt gokus fight against frieza, didnt his punches seperate clouds and didnt frieza punches create shock waves that was felt for miles and sent bulma flying. Didnt goku kick frieza through two mountains.

Ken wouldnt last a millisecond against a android, let alone krillin or nappa. This is a lop sided fight even though ken IS a beast.

Fights were never slowed down and it was never said that they were. Ken can punch way faster than Tien or Yamcha. Look at his fight with Han. No one could see their fists, it looked as if they were standing still. They actually slowed that fight down afterwards.

A Kamehameha was never known for being a fast move. It is usually shot slow and it doesn't move incredibly fast.

Kenshiro destroys tanks with his bare hands and he has lifted rocks well over 1000 tons.

Frieza nor Goku separated clouds with punches and Nappa and Krillin go down hard especially seeing as this is Kenshiro with Kaio Ken.

No Z fighter is too fast for him when it comes to combat speed. If he can keep up with Han then he can keep up with them. Han's fists were practically invisible. Kenshiro will also learn all of their moves after the first punch and he'll kill Krillin with one punch or a finger.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Fights were never slowed down and it was never said that they were. Ken can punch way faster than Tien or Yamcha. Look at his fight with Han. No one could see their fists, it looked as if they were standing still. They actually slowed that fight down afterwards.

A Kamehameha was never known for being a fast move. It is usually shot slow and it doesn't move incredibly fast.

Kenshiro destroys tanks with his bare hands and he has lifted rocks well over 1000 tons.

Frieza nor Goku separated clouds with punches and Nappa and Krillin go down hard especially seeing as this is Kenshiro with Kaio Ken.

No Z fighter is too fast for him when it comes to combat speed. If he can keep up with Han then he can keep up with them. Han's fists were practically invisible. Kenshiro will also learn all of their moves after the first punch and he'll kill Krillin with one punch or a finger.

What are you talking about, dbz has been fighting at invisible speed since dragon ball. Ken is good but he's not even CLOSE to being as fast as goku, even during the saiyan saga.

LOL, at him punching a tank, that aint shit.

This kamehameha was fast and child goku outraced it.

Krillin would KILL ken, ken is good but he's nowhere close to being anything a z fighter is.

During frieza and gokus fight they were busting up namek houses and destroying mountains. Krillin>>>>ken

Originally posted by carver9
What are you talking about, dbz has been fighting at invisible speed since dragon ball. Ken is good but he's not even CLOSE to being as fast as goku, even during the saiyan saga.

LOL, at him punching a tank, that aint shit.

This kamehameha was fast and child goku outraced it.

Krillin would KILL ken, ken is good but he's nowhere close to being anything a z fighter is.

During frieza and gokus fight they were busting up namek houses and destroying mountains. Krillin>>>>ken

I've always seen them fight regularly. Nothing looked invisible to me and it was never stated that they were fighting that way. Speed means nothing when your opponent knows your every move and knows how to counter everything you're going to do.

He destroyed a tank and lifted over 1000 tons of rock with ease.

Kamehameha isn't fast.

How does Krillin counter Musou Tensei?

Kenshiro can destroy houses and mountains as well.

no ate, goku and freiza where destroying houses and mountains with shockwaves alone!!! Your really are completely biased to ken, your giving the guy way to much credit. You need to go back watch DB then DBZ..maybe it will sink in that Goku an the others ahev been fighting like Ken since DB and have far surpased that level.

Someone obviously don't know squat about Kenshiro or Hokuto No Ken if they think Krillin can beat him. Come on, cut the crap!

Originally posted by BradBalboa
no ate, goku and freiza where destroying houses and mountains with shockwaves alone!!! Your really are completely biased to ken, your giving the guy way to much credit. You need to go back watch DB then DBZ..maybe it will sink in that Goku an the others ahev been fighting like Ken since DB and have far surpased that level.

If they surpassed it then it needs to be shown. You can't just look at one speed feat and assume every single feat after that is faster.

Is it wrong to want to change my vote to Ken because of Carver and Brad?

Seriously Krillen beating Ken? That's next to impossible. Much less if Ken has Kaiokenx20 to help.

Still though it's been stated many times that the DBZ characters fight faster than normal people can see.

So can Ken. Not that he'd win but still.

Originally posted by Kento
So can Ken. Not that he'd win but still.

His hands move that fast but his body is still present. Everything about dragonball character is speed, not just there hands.

This right here will prove to you all that the androids is over a 100 tonner in strength and will shut all of you the hell up.

Android 17 will kill him in seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5KRusr_I6U&feature=related

This should also prove that regular dragonball goku is faster than ken, the guy was fighting so fast that he turned to a living tornadoe.>>>> any speed feat ken ever did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-yu2-wxoiA&feature=related

Fast forward to 5 min 18 sec

Originally posted by carver9
His hands move that fast but his body is still present. Everything about dragonball character is speed, not just there hands. I remember it stating they were FIGHTING to fast to be seen. Han's fist were stated to be to fast to be seen also but that has nothing to do with Ken and Han fighting faster than anybody could see. Or Ken being able to move faster than anybody he usually fights being able to see.

And you would think you'd stop using anime feats, and just look up the manga, and post stuff from that since a lot of stuff in the anime never happens in the manga. At least in HNK the feats in teh anime and manga are usually the exact same.

Originally posted by carver9
This should also prove that regular dragonball goku is faster than ken, the guy was fighting so fast that he turned to a living tornadoe.>>>> any speed feat ken ever did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-yu2-wxoiA&feature=related

Fast forward to 5 min 18 sec

He wasn't fighting when he did that. He was just simply moving around and as you know, he wasn't really a tornado.

Kenshiro can also move so fast, normal people can't see him. The reason why his body is present at times is because he doesn't constantly move around. Even though that doesn't change the fact that he does things at high speed and goes back to the same position he was at first as if nothing happened.

ok u just seen a vid showing goku using speed on if not abov kens level..and thats Goku as a kid, before training with Kami, King Kai...

Actually that's Goku as a teenager when he was fighting Tien in their second fight.

What did he do then that was above Kenshiro, I have no idea.

When he fought Piccolo Jr. he moved so fast Kami's divine eyes couldn't follow him.

And your point? Many people other than regular humans weren't able to follow Kenshiro either.

DBZ definitely has the movment speed edge on Ken and the punching force (though based on feats, Kenshiro can definitely lift more than Goku oddly). Most of this may be because they can fly, but it's hard to tell. They were on Ken's level with more consistent "teleporting" before flying.

There was a lot of invisible movement in DBZ, but not that many invisible strikes (apart from the fact that they could fly at many thousands of miles per hour and thus be invisible to the human eye). When you see them trading blows in DBZ, you can see their moves clash. When Ken was fighting Han, no one could see their fists flying for a lot of the fight. DBZ moves faster though and their strikes are more powerful.


As for what will actually happen. I think Ken will lose. Look at the brute force fighters in Hokuto no Ken. Juuza was able to hurt Raoh's shoulder with his kick. The attacks in DBZ are of a much higher magnitude. The energy attacks are just off the chart, but even the physical strikes are more powerful than in DBZ (though again, this could be because of flying). Kenshiro may get his bones broken like Vegeta did.

Musou Tensei is his only hope of countering the androids (and since only 16 had a ki scouter, there's no chance of them locating him). He can pick up life from nothingness and he appears to have no distinct location. Only Kai-Oh was able to stop this by distorting space and blocking Ken's ability to tap into the void. As a result, Ken's own ki gave him away, but the androids won't know this and can't sense ki as well as having no ki signal of their own. Musou Tensei should allow Ken to survive. It activates as a death blow is about to strike. It means Nil-Thought Reincarnation after all.

Having said that Ken would lose, with Musou Tensei, speed is largely meaningless. The Artificial Humans will have some power points to hit, so it's possible for Ken to win this way, especially with his power up.


No Musou Tensei? I think Ken loses.

He is using Musou Tensei in this fight.

Musou Tensei is a pretty damn broken technique as you can attack while intangible. It looks like quantum physics (lol) because he has no definite position during the attack and he picks up life from nothingness, which is like the concept of virtual particles.

I'm not sure if speed can be used to counter it. Warping space works though.

Originally posted by SmashBro
He wasn't fighting when he did that. He was just simply moving around and as you know, he wasn't really a tornado.

Kenshiro can also move so fast, normal people can't see him. The reason why his body is present at times is because he doesn't constantly move around. Even though that doesn't change the fact that he does things at high speed and goes back to the same position he was at first as if nothing happened.

You cant show me ANYTHING of ken moving faster than what I showed you with goku turning into a live tornadoe. Counteract my feet and show me something ken has done thats better than that. Ken body is always visible when he fight, the only thing that disappears is his hands and feats which would alway leave for an open attack.

What if ken fought nappa and nappa just lift his hands and nuke the entire area, what is ken going to do. Show me ken surviving a nuke.

Hell goku as a child was throwing people almost out of orbit and across cities.

The android is on a different level and ken is on the level of goku during his fight with king picollo.