Malak and Kreia vs Dooku

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Kotor3
All Out.

SIDIOUS 66
The duo should take this, if they play it smart, and work good as a team.

Darth Sexy
Dooku has a small chance with a saber here, and I mean small chance. He'd get pwned with the force.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Dooku has a small chance with a saber here, and I mean small chance. He'd get pwned with the force.

Small chance with a saber?

Darth Storm
cmon, dooku loses.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Darth Storm
cmon, dooku loses.

Or not.

Malak isn't a threat, and Kreia (if denied the insta-kill) also isn't much of a threat. He takes the sabers, easy, and then he is left with his "one of the greatest Jedi in 25000 years" and "an even greater Sith" versus KotOR fanboyism. Which do you think will win on KMC? (Or anywhere that uses logic rather than sensationalism?)

Invictus Legio
Malak can atleast hold him for a while and Kreia could assist with teh Triple Purple surprise.

In the force, Dooku goes down, HARD.

Remember, by the time you fully level up Teh Dark Lady, she can not only strengthen her allies tremendously but is also devestating with the force.

Vorpal Ruin
Dooku loses.

Cpt. Valerian
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Or not.

Malak isn't a threat, and Kreia (if denied the insta-kill) also isn't much of a threat. He takes the sabers, easy, and then he is left with his "one of the greatest Jedi in 25000 years" and "an even greater Sith" versus KotOR fanboyism. Which do you think will win on KMC? (Or anywhere that uses logic rather than sensationalism?)

I wouldn't say Malak isn't a threat, but I would say Dooku could dispose of him easily enough, in terms of lightsaber combat. The same goes for Kreia. But, with the Force... The duo win this one.

Invictus Legio
Imagine a lightning duel.
Imagine Dooku filling his old person diapers up while frying.
Imagine the smell of old people and burnt flesh, mixed with pooh.
This ends like WH40K

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Invictus Legio
Imagine a lightning duel.
Imagine Dooku filling his old person diapers up while frying.
Imagine the smell of old people and burnt flesh, mixed with pooh.
This ends like WH40K What detritus.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What detritus.

Ya know, if you quote him, my ignore function can't protect me from his (her?) idiocy. You are ruining KMC for me!

Invictus Legio
Well it not going to smeel like roses.

The Game.
You.
Just.
Lost it.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Or not.

Malak isn't a threat, and Kreia (if denied the insta-kill) also isn't much of a threat. He takes the sabers, easy, and then he is left with his "one of the greatest Jedi in 25000 years" and "an even greater Sith" versus KotOR fanboyism. Which do you think will win on KMC? (Or anywhere that uses logic rather than sensationalism?)

Malak isn't a threat? Prove it. Trying to prove your point by calling the other side "KOTOR fanboyism" does nothing other than destroy your own argument. It also proves that your definition of logic isn't exactly "logical".

If this is SF powered Malak, then Dooku is in for the fight of his life because Kreia is there too. Even if it isn't, It's Malak and Kreia's 3 floating blades against Dooku. Not exactly what you'd call a guaranteed win for him.

In a force battle, Dooku doesn't stand a chance. Malak and Kreia have more force knowledge than Dooku and more offensive techniques. Add the fact that it's a 2 on 1, and Dooku gets donkey stomped.

Invictus Legio
More like donkey-sodomized.

Gideon
Malak has more Force knowledge than Dooku?

Do tell.

Invictus Legio
No, I think he meant that Malak and Kreia(Kreia alone) have more knowledge.

Red Nemesis
DS, I'll deal with your impertinence after I walk my dog.

EDIT: stick out tongue

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
Malak has more Force knowledge than Dooku?

Do tell.

Dark side knowledge. His learnings from Revan, from Korriban. We haven't seen Dooku exercise much variety in dark side abilities and he knows only what Sidious taught him. Then again, the same goes with Malak. But he has Kreia on his side who definitely knows more than dooku.

Invictus Legio
Exactly and the knowledge dilution rule means Dooku wasn't privy to the really cool stuff either.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Dark side knowledge.

You said "Force" knowledge. A wise decision to retract that.



How long was he Revan's apprentice and how much did Revan teach him?



Korriban was also a Confederacy outpost; you're telling me Dooku's never been there?



And we have from Malak? Dooku demonstrates a phenomenal mastery of the Force (including molecular manipulation and precise telekinesis as well as a Force storm of lightning). Sidious doesn't demonstrate dozens of Force techniques, but we know through narrative he has them.



And Sidious is a dark sider whose knowledge of... well... everything exceeds Revan's by an extraordinary amount. And Dooku had over a decade with him.



Yep. Malak was trained for less time by a person with inferior knowledge who may or may not have limited Malak in the same way.



Possibly.

But Dooku has had access to holocrons, Korriban and other locations, and is the most knowledgeable student of his time and of the Jedi Temple.

His knowledge is far and away superior to Malak's.

Darth Sexy
If you notice, I expanded on this fact with the fact that we know as much about that as we do about what Sidious taught Dooku.




Irrelevant. Unless you're telling me there's as much knowledge there during Dooku's time as there was during Revan's plundering of it 4,000 years later.




If you're asking me to prove what Revan taught Malak, then I would ask you to prove what Sidious taught DOoku.




um..So? That's a terrible argument Escape because that means nothing. Vader had 19 years with Sidious and he learned.. What? Hell, it appears Jacen learned more on his 5 year sabbatical than Vader learned with 19 years with Sidious.




And Sidious could have shown Dooku less in 10 years than Revan showed Malak in 1.




Not possibly Escape. It's almost obvious that Kreia's knowledge of the force is superior to anything Dooku knows.


Which means what? He has access to what holocrons? The only one we're certain of is Andeddu. Korriban? What does he have there? Kreia would undoubtedly have had a hell of a lot more access to Korriban's traesure. Other locations? What sith locations has Dooku been to that Malak or Kreia haven't?


This is speculation not defended at all by your argument.

Invictus Legio
That and Sidious never intended to die, so I doubt he taught Vader that much, probably enough to a useful tool but nothing else.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
If you notice, I expanded on this fact with the fact that we know as much about that as we do about what Sidious taught Dooku./quote]

We know less, actually.



That argument is irresistably lame, DS, and not at all worthy of you. Get your head out of Karpyshyn's ass and think for a second: was there as much knowledge on places like Korriban when Sidious was reigning Sith Lord? Probably not; yet his knowledge of the Force and of the dark side is greater than Malak's. And Kreia's. And Revan's. And Ragnos's. And Caedus's. And every Sith Lord who ever existed.

Not to mention you ignore the fact that that knowledge may have been replaced by Sith Lords between Malak and Dooku.



That's not how it works. You made a claim, it's your burden to prove.



It's not a terrible argument; Vader was never a scholar nor were rival Force users enough of a threat to warrant deep Force knowledge.



Which was your contention, clearly, and your job to prove.



You've surprised me with your poor tactics here, so I'm going to abandon pretense of charity and ask you to prove it.



Again, lame argument.

Sidious was never on Malachor V; Kreia and Revan were. And since, by your logic, he's never been anywhere that they haven't and they've been some place he hasn't, his knowledge must be inferior!

Oh, wait...



It is. You've made the claim. Back it up or retract it.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
That argument is irresistably lame, DS, and not at all worthy of you. Get your head out of Karpyshyn's ass and think for a second: was there as much knowledge on places like Korriban when Sidious was reigning Sith Lord? Probably not; yet his knowledge of the Force and of the dark side is greater than Malak's. And Kreia's. And Revan's. And Ragnos's. And Caedus's. And every Sith Lord who ever existed.
I think you are misunderstanding the argument. I claimed places like Korriban simply do NOT have the knowledge that they had 4,000 years ago, which is fact. Sidious having more knowledge is a testament not only to his skill, but his knowledge of these places and his acquisition of sith artifacts that he either found or that were passed down to his master. The simple fact is that you can't claim Dooku would have Malak's knowledge from Korriban simply because he's been there.


May have, but there's no evidence of such, so you'd have to show something of the sort if you are to use this assumption. Furthermore, by Bane's time, Korriban was pretty much useless. I don't know the situation involving Andeddu's holocron, nor Xoxaan's, but if there were sith lords that left their crap after Malak, it appeared that the knowledge was at a minimum by Bane's time.




I don't know what Revan taught Malak, just like you don't know what Sidious taught Dooku.




You asserted that because Dooku had more time with Sidious, he would have learned more than Revan taught Malak. I showed you a case where time=/=knowledge, scholar or not. Furthermore, Sidious wasn't one to teach his apprentices a whole lot. I'm not claiming that Malak knew more but you can't claim that Sidious taught Dooku more simply based on his time spent under his tutelage.




Then my contention is wrong, as is yours that Sidious taught Dooku more in those 10 years.




Poor tactics? Kreia's knowledge in the force being superior to Dooku=fact. Nothing suggests otherwise. You not being able to debate this is evident by your election to call my tactics "poor", and to move on.




Valid argument against Dooku.


All of the knowledge of the past sith lords were passed down to Sidious. Nothing indicates he let Dooku have even 1 iota of that knowledge. ON that basis is where my argument rests, which is more logical than yours.

Oh, wait...




You made the claim that Dooku's knowledge is superior to Malak's. I would suggest you take your own advice and either back it up, or retract it as well.

Gideon
Cease with shifting of the burden of proof. Mine was a counterclaim to your original contention. Prove it or retract it, and then we'll deal with mine.

You made yours first. Period.

Edit: Not to mention that if your logic is to be believed, since every Sith Lord between Malak and Sidious would have had less knowledge from the available worlds than their Masters, it wouldn't make a difference.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
Cease with shifting of the burden of proof. Mine was a counterclaim to your original contention. Prove it or retract it, and then we'll deal with mine.

You made yours first. Period.



Simply saying "it is" isn't a counter claim, nor have you backed up that claim up in any way. I'm not the only one who's apparently making claims without any proof to them. So instead of focusing on me responding first, you should be focusing on backing up your statements as well.

And yes, I AM saying that since Malak, there is less knowledge on Korriban and plundered sith systems. How are you possibly contending this? The fact that sidious is so powerful has more to do with him having access to all of these artifacts.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Malak isn't a threat? Prove it. Trying to prove your point by calling the other side "KOTOR fanboyism" does nothing other than destroy your own argument. It also proves that your definition of logic isn't exactly "logical".
Wow. Such anger. Anyway, I'll deal with substantiation in a bit, we need to deal with your broader attacks.

The way I see it, we have two problems:

"Destroying my own argument"
-and-
My definition of Logic


"My Own Argument"
I don't believe that there is any basis for claiming that Malak is a threat other than KotOR fanboyism. Dooku's greatness is pretty solid: Nebaris's attacks on his skillz haven't been very successful. I don't think that anyone (even you) want to argue that Dooku is weak. This leaves us with the idea that Malak (and, I suppose, Kreia) are strong. What are you basing that idea on? Malak was able to defeat a Revan with none of his memories and some of his connection to the Force blocked while on the Leviathan. That doesn't mean much to me. Later, he used a gimmick to contend with Revan while empowered by the Star Forge. This isn't taking place on the Star Forge. Malak won't have any of the advantages that he used against Revan for this fight. If he did, I might reconsider, but Dooku would get a similar DS Nexus boost, so even that might not help him. Unless I'm missing something from the comics, the only time we've seen Malak in action was while he fought with Revan in KotOR. Neither of his showings put him at Dooku's level.

Destroying My Own Argument
Your claim that pointing out percieved fanboyism effectively destroys my argument hasn't got any merit at all. I (rightfully) noted that there isn't much basis for placing Malak at Dooku's level other than personal preference for the KotOR characters and era. How this would undermine my argument remains a mystery to me, even with several moments of concentrated effort. Does someone else being a fanboy make me wrong?

Logic

As I wasn't conducting a formal proof, I think that definitions 2-5, and especially 4, most accurately fit with your use of the word 'logic'. Could you explain how dismissing baseless assertions (regarding KotOR era characters' power levels) is illogical or displays a misunderstanding or misapplication of logic?
The Battle
Originally posted by Darth Sexy

If this is SF powered Malak, then Dooku is in for the fight of his life because Kreia is there too. Even if it isn't, It's Malak and Kreia's 3 floating blades against Dooku. Not exactly what you'd call a guaranteed win for him.
It isn't SF powered Malak, and if the battle was occurring on the SF, Dooku would get a similar boost.

A minor point, but would Kreia get the floating blades in a strict saber duel? That isn't really swordsmanship, and it isn't her default fighting style. That seems like it would belong in the 'All out' portion of the fight. (Where Dooku would be able to use the Force to dispatch the blades more quickly.)


Originally posted by Darth Sexy

In a force battle, Dooku doesn't stand a chance. Malak and Kreia have more force knowledge than Dooku and more offensive techniques. Add the fact that it's a 2 on 1, and Dooku gets donkey stomped.

Gideon seems to have countered your 'More Force Knowledge' assertion, so I will leave that part alone.

The 2 on 1 might be a factor that I need to re-examine, but Malak hasn't shown any exceptional Force mastery that would put him in a position to threaten Dooku.

Kreia might be a different situation, but her strength is an unknown, while Dooku is confirmed to be near the top in Force mastery. In the absence of facts supporting Kreia (again, assuming that the insta-kill is barred. I would side with the KotOR era team if that attack was allowed.) I think that we have to go with the established top-tier candidate.

Gideon
DS, you're working your way towards my ignore function. Stop being an ass. You made the claim. You've also subscribed to shitty logic. Deal with your claim first (as it was the first claim posted) and then we'll deal with mine.

It's simple. And you know better than to use this retarded Nebaris-logic.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
DS, you're working your way towards my ignore function. Stop being an ass. You made the claim. You've also subscribed to shitty logic. Deal with your claim first (as it was the first claim posted) and then we'll deal with mine.

It's simple. And you know better than to use this retarded Nebaris-logic.

So what you're saying is instead of spending the extra 1 minute to point out your claims, you're focusing on the fact that I haven't proved mine? That seems more like nebaris logic to me. But I'll play your game. What claims do you want proven exactly.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So what you're saying is instead of spending the extra 1 minute to point out your claims, you're focusing on the fact that I haven't proved mine? That seems more like nebaris logic to me. But I'll play your game. What claims do you want proven exactly.

You made the claim. As Nemesis has already reiterated, Dooku has displayed a greater command (i.e. mastery) of the Force surpassing Malak and has narrative supporting the idea that he's near the very top of the food chain in terms of Force mastery. I don't have to prove shit for numerous reasons.

1.) You made the claim.
2.) Your "lulz Korriban" argument is retarded (because it would apply to Sidious as well, who surpasses every other Sith ).
3.) My claim that Dooku is more knowledgeable has already been proven.

Now prove Malak is more knowledgeable.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
"My Own Argument"
I don't believe that there is any basis for claiming that Malak is a threat other than KotOR fanboyism. Dooku's greatness is pretty solid: Nebaris's attacks on his skillz haven't been very successful. I don't think that anyone (even you) want to argue that Dooku is weak. This leaves us with the idea that Malak (and, I suppose, Kreia) are strong. What are you basing that idea on? Malak was able to defeat a Revan with none of his memories and some of his connection to the Force blocked while on the Leviathan. That doesn't mean much to me. Later, he used a gimmick to contend with Revan while empowered by the Star Forge. This isn't taking place on the Star Forge. Malak won't have any of the advantages that he used against Revan for this fight. If he did, I might reconsider, but Dooku would get a similar DS Nexus boost, so even that might not help him. Unless I'm missing something from the comics, the only time we've seen Malak in action was while he fought with Revan in KotOR. Neither of his showings put him at Dooku's level.
You believing there is no basis for Malak being a threat other than fanboyism doesn't make it so. Nor is that any kind of an argument. I never claimed Malak alone could defeat Dooku. However you claimed Dooku would defeat Malak and Kreia, without actually backing it up.


Your argument is that if someone is voting for Malak in this fight, it's because they are fanboyism. In no way do you attempt to argue for Dooku.


I can't believe I have to continue this. Your argument again, is that if someone voted for Malak, it's because they were fanboys. You didn't go into any kind of detail on why Dooku would defeat Malak and Kreia, hence your argument not exactly being logical.


You don't know Kreia's default saber style.





Stating it doesn't make it so.


Her various force techniques make her enough of a threat to Dooku. Her superiority with the force drain as well.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
You made the claim. As Nemesis has already reiterated, Dooku has displayed a greater command (i.e. mastery) of the Force surpassing Malak and has narrative supporting the idea that he's near the very top of the food chain in terms of Force mastery. I don't have to prove shit for numerous reasons.

1.) You made the claim.
2.) Your "lulz Korriban" argument is retarded (because it would apply to Sidious as well, who surpasses every other Sith ).
3.) My claim that Dooku is more knowledgeable has already been proven.

Now prove Malak is more knowledgeable.
I retracted my overall force claim and added "dark side knowledge". He had access to the treasure troves of Korriban, and to Revan. How much this means we don't know exactly. At the same time, Dooku had access to Sidious, and what else exactly?
2. It's not retarded because it does apply to Sidious as well. Him being the most powerful sith of all time doesn't mean he found more knowledge on Korriban than that of Malak. He has collected sith artifacts from various locations, but challenging the position that there are possibly more artifacts on sith planets now than there were 4,000 years ago, is absurd.
3. Again, you stating it doesn't make it so. Simply saying "lolz Dooku trained under Sidious for 10 years!" doesn't prove any kind of a point. You've yet to prove Dooku's superiority in dark side knowledge, which WAS my amended claim. You've also yet to prove how Dooku would defeat Malak AND Kreia, which was my other claim. Try again.

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I retracted my overall force claim and added "dark side knowledge".

Which you have yet to prove.



Dooku has displayed a greater command of the Force and has had narrative support that claim.

But thanks for the concession.



I didn't say there were more artifacts. Nor is Sidious simply stronger than Malak and Revan. His knowledge surpasses theirs as well. The fact that they had "access to treasure troves!!1!" at Korriban doesn't mean shit, because clearly even if they did, it didn't make them any more knowledgeable than the next guy.



I didn't say Dooku could defeat Malak and Kreia. We're not going to do this again, DS.

Prove your contention, retract it, or ignore this thread and move on.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Malak isn't a threat? Prove it. Trying to prove your point by calling the other side "KOTOR fanboyism" does nothing other than destroy your own argument. It also proves that your definition of logic isn't exactly "logical".

Attacking the opposition without having an argument yourself and attempting to lecturing him, that he can't make points like this, while trying to do it yourself - well. What's this, in case his access wasn't very "logical" ?



I neither see the thread-starter saying that this fight happens on the Star Forge, nor do I see any "three blades of Traya" mentioned somewhere. And please. Traya went down against the Exile. An "average Jedi". I don't see her being much of a thread to "one of the most powerful Jedi" in the past 25,000 years. Malak? Died against Revan, who is also potentially less powerful and skilled with a blade in comparison to Dooku - and this while being powered up by the Star Forge.



I wonder how the hell Kreia and Malak would have more force knowledge and offensive force techniques than one of the most powerful individuals in the entire f*cking saga. The same Dooku that owned Ventress by lifting one finger. Especially if you think about what Malak and Kreia have shown in terms of force abilities. A force drain? (Kreia) I doubt that would be effective against somebody capable of hiding his presence in the Force completely (Dooku). Or force lightning (Malak)? I'm sure Dooku can't defend himself against that, despite the fact that he is one of the 3 beings seen to deflect force lightning with his hands in the PT era...

Yeah. He gets totally owned. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
Dooku has displayed a greater command of the Force and has had narrative support that claim.
My claim was dark side knowledge.




They were more knowledgeable because they had artifacts. Sidious is more knowledgeable because he has artifacts. Wtf does Dooku has? It was your contention that Dooku is more knowledable in the darkside. Prove it.




Yet this was my contention. The only other contention I made was Malak>dooku in darkside knowledge.

Darth Sexy
I seem to recall this was Traya's fighting style against the exile. I don't know if it was her default style but you haven't seen her fight in any other way. "One of the most powerful Jedi" means what exactly? Traya went down via lightsaber combat. The Exile was nothing compared to Traya via the force. What does Malak fighting Revan have to do with anyone's lightsaber abilities? I never claimed malak can defeat Dooku with a saber. Learn to read.




See, spouting off crap like "one of the most powerful individuals" does nothing to prove your point. By your contention, Revan could beat Dooku because he's the "heart of the force". It means nothing. Traya's knowledge with the force seems to exceed Dooku's. You doubt a force drain is capable against Dooku? Wow. He's going to hide his presence in the force while he fights Malak and Traya? That makes a lot of sense Nai. What is Dooku going to do against Traya and Malak with the force? What's that? Nothing? Or is he going to kill them because he's "One of the most powerful beings in the saga"? Way to apply a meaningless argument.

Yeah. He gets totally owned. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Gideon
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
My claim was dark side knowledge.




They were more knowledgeable because they had artifacts. Sidious is more knowledgeable because he has artifacts. Wtf does Dooku has? It was your contention that Dooku is more knowledable in the darkside. Prove it.




Yet this was my contention. The only other contention I made was Malak>dooku in darkside knowledge.

You're shifting the goalpost ala Nebaris and expecting me to tolerate it? Wrong.

I was even charitable to address my argument even though you made your contention first. That's over.

We're done. When you pull your head out of your ass, you can have someone private message me.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I retracted my overall force claim and added "dark side knowledge". He had access to the treasure troves of Korriban, and to Revan. How much this means we don't know exactly. At the same time, Dooku had access to Sidious, and what else exactly?


Excuse me? The only being in the SW mythos that had access to Revan's sources is Revan. If you don't want to accept that, then we have to assume that Dooku has complete access to everything Sidious had in the time of RotS. Which would include all knowledge extracted from Revan's holocron...

And siting Korriban (already plundered in Kun's time) and Malachor V (dubious amount of knowledge) as sources for WTFOMG-Dark Side Lore isn't the smartest thing to do when you can't substantiate the respective knowledge stored there. And this is not even mentioning that the only being having access to the complete wealth of that knowledge was Revan himself.



You probably want to do a check of the knowledge source of Sidious. Hint: It includes everything that Bane found (Revan's holocron, knowledge from Nadd etc.) adding another 1000 years of Sith knowledge either generated or found by the various Sith Lords between Bane and Sidious. To state that Malak (Revan) found more knowledge in 6 months than the Ro2 Order in 1000 years is absurd. To assume he shared what he found with Malak - even more. Especially if you consider the fact that KotoR itself displays Sith that don't share their knowledge with their minions.



But stating that Malak trained for 6 month under Revan who had a huge amount of knowledge does prove a point? Right...



Excuse me. You did toss the point into the debate that Malak and Kreia have more Dark Side knowledge than Dooku. So please don't attempt to shift the burden of proof but present your "proof" to turn that statement into a valid point. Until then, I'll take one of the most powerful (and knowledgeable) Jedi in 25,000 years and "an even more powerful Sith" who studied the force for more than 8 decades over Padawan-Gone-Dark-Side-Malak and Librarian-Gone-Darkside-Kreia each time of the day.



Saber rape one of them while force raping the other. As he does with Anakin / Obi-Wan or Bulq / Tholme. Technically, he just has to get one of them out of the fight and then defeat the other. Impossible for Dooku, who seems to be quite the perfectionist when it comes down to direct confrontation? I don't think so.

The Awesomeness
I love it when Darth Sexy gets his debate on.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Gideon
You're shifting the goalpost ala Nebaris and expecting me to tolerate it? Wrong.

I was even charitable to address my argument even though you made your contention first. That's over.

We're done. When you pull your head out of your ass, you can have someone private message me.

Except I retracted my contention that Malak was better than Dooku in force knowledge. My arguments involved Malak being superior in Dooku in dark side abilities, and Malak and Traya beating Dooku in an all out fight. You have yet to refute any of this, instead electing to claim that my "head is in my ass", which basically says "I don't want to refute anything nor back up my claims".

The Awesomeness
Don't worry Sexy, I've got your back.

*sends Gideon that private message*

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me? The only being in the SW mythos that had access to Revan's sources is Revan. If you don't want to accept that, then we have to assume that Dooku has complete access to everything Sidious had in the time of RotS. Which would include all knowledge extracted from Revan's holocron...
You have no knowledge of what Dooku learned from Sidious. Prove what he learned.

Here's the thing. I don't have to substantiate this claim. The fact that Revan plundered "underground cities of korriban full of holocrons and sith artifacts" is good enough, whereas you have nothing for Dooku. The fact that all of these places gave Revan techniques that made Bane shit his pants is evidence enough. Your argument is hilarious. The fact that he gained knowledge and tangible items from there is fact, and enough. The fact that he gained more of that stuff from Korriban than Dooku or Sidious is also more logical than any other explanation. I don't have to prove what he gained because that isn't the argument.




My contention was that Malak found more on Korriban that Dooku or Sidious did. I don't know what it is that you're arguing. But you would have to prove that Sidious found more than Malak on Korriban 4,000 years later.




Since none of that was part of my argment, i'm going to have to assume that you're high on PCP and are therefore, reading something I'm not.




There's your problem. You'd take someone based on a quote, over 2 characters that had access to sith treasures during their hayday. Nor is there anything pointing to Dooku learning a great deal of sith techniques. So I'll take facts and logical inferences over a meaningless quote.




Except Anakin and Obiwan aren't exactly comparable to Traya and Malak in terms of the force. Here, I'll use your logic. While Dooku saber rapes Malak, Kreia force drains him. The end.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by The Awesomeness
Don't worry Sexy, I've got your back.

*sends Gideon that private message*

stfu noobaris. Enjoy the ban.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I seem to recall this was Traya's fighting style against the exile. I don't know if it was her default style but you haven't seen her fight in any other way.

Oh. Cool. You did somehow forget how she was owned by Sion with one strike, correct? You really think that Dooku will stand there and allow her to apply Telekinesis (lifting the swords) against him? You think that, even if she does so, Dooku will have much of a problem pwning the swords in the matter of seconds?



Excuse me. If the Exile was nothing in comparison to Traya, Traya should have owned her. Didn't happen,a s we all know.

And Malak also can't defeat Dooku with the force, which would be the only other way aside from using the saber. The SF powered Malak can't do the job and the usual Malak would most likely be a complete pushover for the guy who owned pretty much every single being in his own time, with the exceptions of Mace, Yoda and Sidious that opposed him directly.



Yeah, right. It would mean nothing, if we hadn't the nice definition of Yoda himself.

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be!"

There you go.



Why not? If that is the only way to survive the "instakill" I would do that in Dooku's case. What are Traya and Malak going to do when Dooku attacks them with force lightning or his other offensive abilities. Die on the spot? Seems to be a nice suggestion.



Oh. You mean he couldn't f*ck them up with his abilities. Like Ventress, whom he almost killed by "popping her blood-vessels like balloons" - this while not even focusing on her and by doing nothing more than lifting his finger? You think he would be unable to force rape them like he did it with Anakin, Obi-Wan, Tholme, Bulq? Then I hope you can provide proof for Kreia and Malak having a force defence that exceed that of PT era Council Members.

Invictus Legio
Dooku shook the ceiling, threw some crapass lightning, and was a Jedi when jedi were taught to restrain there power more than any other time out of fear from things like 7th Ruusan and what happened at Yavin 4 with Exar Kun.

Malak is crap, I'll give you that, but seriously I doubt the Exile stayed average, remember he subconsciously leeched off others( the bonds) and we're not even sure if Traya was fighting to her fullest.

That and her knowledge on Korriban's secrets seem nearly unrivaled.

Srsly, the jedi and sith of the respective eras had vastly different philosophies about combat and battle, and most of the reason we don't see much saber skills is gameplay(srsly, in the sequel there was like no difference in the forms) and as far as the force goes Old Sith Wars era was like the PT era in saber skills if you think about it.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. Cool. You did somehow forget how she was owned by Sion with one strike, correct? You really think that Dooku will stand there and allow her to apply Telekinesis (lifting the swords) against him? You think that, even if she does so, Dooku will have much of a problem pwning the swords in the matter of seconds?
You do realize that she had an agenda the whole time right? You do realize that Sion was still subservient to her throughout the entire game right? Do you really think Traya will let Dooku just attack her? I can use skewed logic all day. And yes, I think 3 of Traya's swords+1 of Dooku's swords=a problem for Dooku.




Have you ever played the game? If you have you know that Traya commanded the exile to kill her, and it was her every intention to die.


Simply stating Malak can't defeat Dooku with the force doesn't make it so. Prove it. Stating SF powered malak can't do it doesn't make it so either. Not exactly an argument for Dooku. "Guy X can't do this and that because I say so, therefore Guy Y wins".



Meaning what exactly? How does this prove anything in an all out fight with Traya and Malak? Oh right, it doesn't.




Really? What offensive abilities? Show me 1 thing Dooku knows that Traya and Malak don't. Force lightning? They know it. Force drain, he doesn't.




You're comparing Ventress with either of the two, which is laughable. You're comparing Anakin and Obiwan's force abilities with Malak and Traya. That's laughable. Prove what force defense? What is dooku going to do to them exactly?>
Btw, by your logic, Traya would pwn Dooku because she destroyed what, 15 or so assassins on Malachor V without moving a muscle?

The Awesomeness
....



By the same token:

You think Traya would be unable to force rape Dooku like she did with Kavar, Vrook, and Zez-Kai Ell, simultaneously? Then I hope you can provide proof for Dooku having a force defence that exceeds that of 3 KotOR era High Council Members, combined.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by The Awesomeness
....



By the same token:

You think Traya would be unable to force rape Dooku like she did with Kavar, Vrook, and Zez-Kai Ell, simultaneously? Then I hope you can provide proof for Dooku having a force defence that exceed that of 3 KotOR era High Council Members, combined.

Interesting. Good point Nebaris. You're still getting banned though.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You have no knowledge of what Dooku learned from Sidious. Prove what he learned.


Omg. You don't have an idea what Malak learned or what Traya learned. Despite of that, you claim that their abilities are superior to that of Count Dooku with - good god - nothing to base this claim on.



You did notice the "Revan" in the sentence you wrote, yes? Revan is not Malak. And Revan is not Traya. Did you get that? So Malak has "whatever Revan liked to share with him" and Kreia has "whatever was left on Malachor V AFTER Revan plundered it". Yes. That sounds like a shitload of knowledge. Lmao.



The fact that your still attributing Malak with Revan's knowledge is the only "hilarious" thing here, Sexy. Obviously, Malak was so far behind Revan in terms of abilities, that he wasn't able to oppose Revan directly when the latter was still the Dark Lord. And hell. He still failed against Revan, when he was amped by the SF. So how in the blue hell, is Malak compareable to Revan in terms of knowledge and Dark side ability? Right. He isn't.




Hello. Wake up, Sissy. Malak found nothing anywhere. It was Revan who did the job. The same Revan that did - obviously - hide his entire knowledge on Lehon and (whoopie) not share it with Malak. You know: Malak and Revan are still not the same person.



Yeah. Right. Once more: Dooku has enough Sith knowledge to pwn Asajj Ventress by lifting one finger. In fact, Dooku was obsessed with learning Dark Side lore from his youth on. In fact, he had access to multiple Sith holocrons.

And, of course, there is still the fact that: Neither Kreia nor Malak had access to any special Sith Lore whatsoveer because Revan did take anything away from their supposed knowledge sources.



Urm? May I point it out for you one more time: All that Kreia has done was force raping three Jedi Masters with a technique that - at her time - there was no defence against. All that Malak has done was force stunning a non-force-user and Revan (surprise action), use some force lightning on Bastilla and some midiocre Jedi and use the SF powers to drain the Jedi he had captured before.

So, I may point this out once more: Two persons, who's major actions are performed against completely defenseless opponents and who then got pwned by people clearly not equipped with Dooku's knowledge, skills and abilities? Hmm.

Invictus Legio
Revan knew how to use Malachor V to forcibly convert every jedi(exile not included) to sith...permanently.

He learned how to use places strong in the darkside to his DIRECT advantage, coupled with shit that, as stated, made Bane think twice about using some of the knowledge(some of it he ignored entirely) out of fear of the consequences.

Yet, he thought that the Thought Bomb was SAFE ENOUGH TO USE in comparison with the other stuff.

Then again, Borby, unless you see what a 12-gauge shotgun does to someone's forehead(leaving the nose and mouth intact) while being press against their head and fired, you won't believe that said blast will kill them.

By the logic of "It must be shown for it to be possible and it must be shown for it to be canonical abilty" then you must have the brain of a toddler or a fundamentalist.

Seriously, if Bane thought that the freakin thought bomb was safe and okay compared to the other stuff, then what abominable knowledge did Revan truly posess?

Invictus Legio
Remember Kreia has EVEN MORE knowledge than Revan.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Borbarad
Omg. You don't have an idea what Malak learned or what Traya learned. Despite of that, you claim that their abilities are superior to that of Count Dooku with - good god - nothing to base this claim on.
I know that they had more obvious access to sith artifacts. Traya knows a ridiculous force drain at the very LEAST. Unless you can show what Dooku knows that they don't, that's one in my favor.




A shitload more than Dooku lmao. Not to mention at the very laest, she picked up the force drain on Malachor. Again, 1 for me.




The fact that you claim Dooku has more darkside knowledge than these two without a single iota of proof is hilarious.





Malak still had access to Korriban. Dooku had access to what.. Oh that's right, you dont know, homo.




Explain to me how what Dooku did to Ventress even begins to equate to sith knowledge? You mean a force choke? WOW! Access to multiple holocrons? Aside from Andeddu's holocron that Vos stole, what else?


Yes, Revan packed up the sources from the entire planet of Malachor V and took them in his ship. That sounds legitimate. Oh wait. Special sith lore? Again, during Revan and Malak's reign, they were still plundering Korriban. There's no evidence Dooku had anything special other than Andeddu's holocron.




There's no proof that there's a defense for it now Nai. What Kreia did far surpasses what Dooku has done.


ROFL. Right. The Council Masters Traya pwned were completely defenseless. Your argument gets more pathetic with each new excuse. Dooku's knowledge? What knowledge? What abilities? Oh that's right. Typical Nai argument. "I'm right because I say so, backing up arguments are for chumps!"

Borbarad
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You do realize that she had an agenda the whole time right? You do realize that Sion was still subservient to her throughout the entire game right? Do you really think Traya will let Dooku just attack her? I can use skewed logic all day. And yes, I think 3 of Traya's swords+1 of Dooku's swords=a problem for Dooku.


The 3 swords are just moving around in the air, apparently without performing any complex manouvers. Dooku would need three swings and be done with them. Nice infight their. That is, if he doesn't desite to just enter melee combat with Malak and shoot a barrage of force lightning at Traya, which will result in either her losing her concentration (attempting to defend herself from the force attack) or her being knocked out.



Being killed by a superior opponent. Otherwise their would be no need to fight the Exile at all...



Excuse me: You are the one here that keeps talking about Malak's force super powers without presenting one single line of proof that he has any. By what we know, Dooku just has to be able to defend himself against lightning, telekinesis and a force drain (he can do all of that) to defeat Malak - SF Powered or not.



Did I already mention the "baloon popping blood vessels"?
Yeah. I could swear I did that. And Dooku doesn't know force drain? Well. He can just rip it out of their minds - because that is a technique he does know.



Excuse me. I just have to lecture you once more: Malak is a Padawan who went out to war and then went Dark Side. Traya is a Librarian who went Darkside. Effecitively, you're dealing with Anakin Skywalker (Malak) and a Dark Side Jocasta Nu (Traya) here. On the other hand, you have one of the most resourceful Jedi Council Members (Kenobi), da Chosen One (Anakin) and a Dark Jedi that was a match for both of them in direct confrontation (Ventress). And you have Dooku, who force raped all three of them.

Face it: Malak and Kreia, while their displays seem to be quite nice, are just what they are: Some people that went Darkside for a brief period of time. Their major actions are performed against people without defense (force attacks) or in an amped state (SF Malak). Dooku, in turn, was obsessed with the Darkside since his youth (so...for more than 6 decades) and has been descriped as one of the most knowledgeable and most powerful force users around - even before he went to receive a decade of training by the person that is descriped as most knowledgeable and most powerful Sith Lord in history. And he performed his feats on equal footing with his opponents.




What force defense?
May I remind you that Kreia owned them with a technique "against which their was no defense", hmm? If there was no defense against it, they couldn't put up any defense against it - meaning: Kreia owned three people that weren't able to put up any defense against her force attack. An attack Dooku can defend himself against. So, I'm sorry: YOU FAIL.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I know that they had more obvious access to sith artifacts. Traya knows a ridiculous force drain at the very LEAST. Unless you can show what Dooku knows that they don't, that's one in my favor.


How did "they" have more access to Sith artifacts? Dooku accessed two Sith Holocrons and had access to another one (through Sidious). How many Sith Holocrons did you see being used by Malak and Traya? Oh right. None.

And sorry. Blood vessel popping: Not known by them. Force lightning? Never used by Traya, thus probably not known to her. Qey'Tek - not known to either of those two. Force flight - not known to them. And so on, and so forth...



Dooku was capable of ripping informations out of people's mind. And he can defend himself against that "force drain".



See above. He performs everything they could do, then the counter to the only ability they have that he - maybe - doesn't have, adding a shitload of other techniques (that they don't have). And this is just what Dooku demonstrated.




Wow. Malak had access to a planet that was plundered by Kun first and then by Revan later? I wonder how much knowledge would be there after the planet was plundered two times. Especially if you consider that the only one finding knowledge there in the times of Revan and Malak was - oh god - Revan again, who plundered the last tombs that he hadn't plundered when he was there for the first time. Yes. Sounds like a shitload of information was left there for Malak.

Especially when compared to the knowledge of Andeddu, training from Sidious and so on...



A force choke makes the blood-vessels in your lung "pop like balloons"? I didn't know that, Captain Smartass. The second Holocron would be the one that Dooku stole when he was a Padawan. The third one would be in Sidious possession that Dooku left some informations on.



Can I point it out once more:
Malachor V was a freaking training facility, installed by people that are known for not sharing their knowledge. Do you expect that you can find any priceless knowledge in Elementary School? Apparently, yes. Because this is what you're suggesting here.

And again: Their was no reign of "Revan AND Malak". Revan reigned. And he reigned so supreme that his own apprentice (Hint Malak) had to shoot him with a turbolaser and still failed to kill him with that. Then he returned with weeks of training and destroyed an SF powered Malak in a duel. Huh? Where are those two compareable in terms of knowledge and ability? I don't see it. In fact, all that I see seems to suggest that Revan is by far superior to his own apprentice.



It attacks one's presence in the force, as demonstrated when it fails against the Exile (who doesn't have such a present). Thus anybody able to mask his presence in the force can't be attacked with that ability - due to lack of a target...



WTF? Kreia killed them with a technique "there was no defense against". By the very nature of the attack those Jedi Masters were defenseless. That's like me shooting you with a bullet and then state that I have "overpowered your bullet dodging abilities" - which weren't there in the first place.



Typical Darth Sexy aka TDTD bitching and trolling. "I don't have an oppinion, I don't have an argument, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about - still I think that you suck. ROFLOLBBQ." Doesn't fly here, Dave. Next please.

Lightsnake
Given Dooku apparently had access to the freaking Telos Holocron, AKA: THE single greatest Sith knowledge trove in existence, suffice to say he knows a bit. Quinlan Vos also noted Dooku was 'proficient' with Sith Holocrons like Andeddu's as he'd accessed them before.

Unless Palpatine personally added Dooku's knowledge there like Bane did with Revan and presumably Qordis, then...

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Borbarad
How did "they" have more access to Sith artifacts? Dooku accessed two Sith Holocrons and had access to another one (through Sidious). How many Sith Holocrons did you see being used by Malak and Traya? Oh right. None.
Prove he accessed anything other than Andeddu's holocron. Here's another one. Malak and Traya had access to Korriban's tombs while they were being plundered, and Malachor V, Dooku didn't. You lose.


Except FL was incredibly common in that time by the sith. Revan and Malak knew it, Traya's apprentices Nihilus and SIon knew it. But according to Nai's logic, if we don't see it, it didn't happen! Prove Dooku knew force flight. Prove Qey'tek is applicable in a fight.




Rofl. Typical Nai. Passing off his opinion as fact without any argument. Guess what, Revan can rip information out of people's minds too! Explain how this would be applicable in a fight.




ROFL. Logic according to Nai. Guy A and B, therefore he can do EVERYTHING the other guy can do. Except you can't prove he has ANY techniques that they don't, that are relevant to a fight. Also continuing this claim that he does, doesn't make it so.





You've consistently proven that you're an idiot Nai, but arguing with you is hilarious, so I'll indulge you. First, Kun never plundered Korriban. Kun never did anything on Korriban. Kun left as soon as he was healed by the dark side. The end. Secondly, Revan can't plunder all of korriban. That's why he recreated an acadamy and had everyone else gather stuff he didn't yet, or didn't get to.


Knowledge of Andeddu? What knowledge exactly? Sidious? What knowledge exactly? I love the double standards. I have to prove what knowledge the duo gained from Korriban and Malachor, but Nai doesn't have to prove what knowledge Dooku gained from sidious and Andeddu. Nice try, jackass.




Do you have any proof that Dooku accessed the holocron he stole? And what is this 3rd holocron?




Except it was said that Revan found underground cities of sith artifacts and holocrons. So yes.



Except no. The only apparent defense for this technique is being a WOUND in the force. Hiding one's presence=/=Wound. And you've still yet to prove anything Dooku knows that would be useful in a fight.




Great, so she would kill Dooku as well since there's no defense and therefore, Dook is defenseless.





Rofl. Typical Nai. When his argument doesn't fly, he projects his incompetence and bitching on other people. If that's not enough, he makes more baseless accusations. Way to go Nai, you've proven once and for all the stupidity of people that let emotions get in the way of an argument laughing out loud here you go Nai

http://www.ofertondelibros.com/images/large/isbn978047/9780471799412-l.jpg

Invictus Legio
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Given Dooku apparently had access to the freaking Telos Holocron, AKA: THE single greatest Sith knowledge trove in existence, suffice to say he knows a bit. Quinlan Vos also noted Dooku was 'proficient' with Sith Holocrons like Andeddu's as he'd accessed them before.

Unless Palpatine personally added Dooku's knowledge there like Bane did with Revan and presumably Qordis, then... Who is this TDTD that the motormouth of nearsighted nonsense speaks of.

Invictus Legio
From what I've seen of Borby ans to a certain extent Escape, they don't have intuitive reasoning or theoretical deduction skills any greater than a child's. Granted, this obscured by intelligence and simple logic,keyword simple, but all the same. These are the type of people who didn't believe that a dog wouldn't nurse a kitten because it hadn't been shown everywhere, but we all know now don't we.

Guys like this simply cannot fathom that the Kotor era Jedi were superior in any way simply because we have only seen gamplay.

Basically, they think that because Malak has shown what his lightsaber really were they assume that he sucked balls or was average.

Publius II
Yeah, Gideon's a dumbass. Nai even moreso.

It's not like their arguments just fly right over your head or anything.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Invictus Legio
From what I've seen of Borby ans to a certain extent Escape, they don't have intuitive reasoning or theoretical deduction skills any greater than a child's. Granted, this obscured by intelligence and simple logic,keyword simple, but all the same. These are the type of people who didn't believe that a dog wouldn't nurse a kitten because it hadn't been shown everywhere, but we all know now don't we.

Guys like this simply cannot fathom that the Kotor era Jedi were superior in any way simply because we have only seen gamplay.

Basically, they think that because Malak has shown what his lightsaber really were they assume that he sucked balls or was average.

Dude shut up

Publius II
Nemesis would have a field day with this.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Dude shut up

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Ya know, if you quote him, my ignore function can't protect me from his (her?) idiocy. You are ruining KMC for me!

Srsly.

But on a related note, why is this n00b calling Gideon 'Escape'? (s)he shouldn't know/use his old username unless its a sock.

Invictus Legio
Originally posted by Publius II
Yeah, Gideon's a dumbass. Nai even moreso.

It's not like their arguments just fly right over your head or anything. 1.Holy shit, we agree on something
2.Where's Faunus and Enyalus?
3.For that matter, EVERYBODY, I used to come here all the tim about4-3 1/2 years ago and it was packed and had discussions about proposed battle scenarios that were almost good enough to imagine yourself there.
4.Swirly Girl and a assload of others are missing, and seriously guys, what the hell happened?Apocalyps/Armegeddon/Chuck Norris?
5.Yeah I had an account about the same time but got stationed in Germany for a while, then they sent to desert hellhole...I don't want to talk about it but suffice to say I forgot the exact name and password so **** it I have a new one.

Gideon
Originally posted by Publius II
Yeah, Gideon's a dumbass. Nai even moreso.

Well, as long as you clarify that Nai is dumber than I am, I can handle that.

Darth Sexy
Enjoy the ban Invictus

Invictus Legio
Originally posted by Red Nemesis



Srsly.

But on a related note, why is this n00b calling Gideon 'Escape'? (s)he shouldn't know/use his old username unless its a sock. When you click on someone to view their profile, you get to see all sorts of amazing things.

Publius II
Why would he get banned...?

Invictus Legio
Yeah, I'm keeping the language around PG-13 and in case you haven't notice, I'm on your side.

Srsly, someone pm about #3

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Publius II
Why would he get banned...?

Well, he has admitted to being a troll (in an early post in the battle bar) and has the markings of a sock.

Publius II
@Invictus: Well, it has been 3.5/4 years. Some people left, others are on different boards.

Edit: REX has been lax as of late.

Invictus Legio
Yeah but all great (insane yet intelligent) have gone.

Give some of those boards.

Maybe he wants this place to get repopulated.

Borbarad

Borbarad
I could swear I said "was no defence" because that's exactly what I meant. You could go and check every source about the KotoR era. You would find one interesting thing there: Apparently, something like "force defence" didn't even exist in those days. In fact, every dumbass using a force attack does also hit with that force attack. The only way to get around that is resisting the attack (such as Kun did when Odan attacked him with a Wall Of Light). And here we're facing a nice problem. We don't know how the force masking techniques would affect the force drain ability. Apparently we have to assume that masking your presence in the force enable you to survive / resist a force drain. Thus Dooku does have a counter measure to that technique.

And, going by your own standards: Prove that this technique can even be used in a fight. I never did see anybody using it in actual combat.



Let me go through the reality check with you:

a) You lack knowledge about the topic you want to debate. You fail.
b) You have to change parameters of an argument or use double-standards to even be able to post something. You fail again.
c) When I kick the living shit out of your argument, the only thing you can do is attempting to immitate me and toss another childish insult attempt at me. You fail once more.




In you wet dreams, Gideon.

Invictus Legio
so that's why the Antedilluvians have disappeared...

Borby, just by existing you have cleared this mystery up for me.

You are the last of a dead breed, die already, your kind are always associated with numan and his antics anyways.

Cpt. Valerian
Right...

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Borbarad
Hooray, dummy.
If you don't do your homework, then don't come here and attempt to "debate" with the heavy hitters of SW Lore. Dooku stole a Sith Holocron together with Lorian Nod. And of course he did access it, which everybody with a decent amount of knowledge about the SW universe would know. Of course you don't and because of that you don't qualify as opponent in a debate in this forum here. Second: There is a record of Dooku stored in the Telos Holocron so, apparently, he did access that one too. Again: Do your homework or stop talking. I'm not here to give you an overview over every damn bit of SW canon. You should get the knowledge before attempting to argue against people who have it.
Heavy hitters? Humility isn't your strong suit Nai, nor are you realistic. Really? He accessed it? Everybody with a decent amount of knowledge? So you go from arguing from stupidity to appealing to the majority which doesn't even exist? Nevermind the fact that the majority of sith holocrons can only be accessible by a DLOTS or a sith lord? Secondly, even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume Dooku accessed it and not Palpatine who put in Dooku's words, that proves exactly what? I sincerely doubt you know everything about sw canon because if you do, then your inferences are horrible. And if you're a heavy hitter, then this forum is sorely lacking.




You totally owned me? Translation: I have said nothing of substance so instead of attempting to revamp my arguments to make some kind of logical sense, I'm going to end this debate with the idea of denial. You lose again Nai. Dooku gets tooled.





Are you ****ing serious? I sincerely hope that you've somehow attained a considerable sense of humor (even for a German), and are just trying to entertain me. You're asking me how ripping out how ripping out a language is NOT applicable in a fight? SO basically you've proven that your IQ is ridiculously below a "frozen lobotomized starfish".




Idiot country? This coming from a German who can't spell? Oh right, lets use the crutch that you're not around here so you're not expected to write properly, nor read properly. So since you've embarrassed yourself with irrelevant opinions and overall bitching, you're basically going to stop attempting to debate. Got it. Owned again.


So basically nothing that's applicable in a fight that the other two can't deal with. Unless you're assuming Malak and Traya plan on standing there dumbfounded while Dooku dishes out force maneuvers ala Harlem Globetrotters.


Hey look, something Dooku doesn't know! And it's applicable in a fight! Score one for malak.


Hey, Kreia knows something Dooku doesn't that's applicable in a fight. Score another for the duo. I wouldn't argue with you much if it was 1 on 1 but you're hilarious in trying to debate a losing argument for 1 on 2.


Except you've yet to prove as such, and in fact you've offered contradictory evidence. Way to go dipshit.




Says the comics big boy, unless you have alternative proof. Don't act like Kun's psychologist just because your argument is shot to shit. Kun left without anything. But it's cute how you try to use another method for your debate. Now it's KUNS followers who could have possibly taken something from Korriban, not Kun. Make up your mind, you putz.

Darth Sexy
Show me where he calls it empty. And KOTOR 1, and various other sources would disagree with your piss poor assessment.




Again you've proven that you're worse than Darth "Can't debate for shit" sexy. Embarrassing yourself like that doesn't help you. It's my job not yours? Really? Because you also made the assertion that Dooku>Malak AND Traya? You know Nai sometimes I think you're playing dumb and sometimes I think you're really an idiot. How many different tactics do you have to use in 1 debate? You ARE using a double standard. If I can't substantiate what Malak and Traya learned from Korriban and Malachor, then you can't substantiate what Dooku learned from the holocrons or Sidious.




Nai's last resort to a dying argument. Call himself king shit and accuse the other party of trolling. This would make sense if you weren't getting curmbstomped with your retarded posts and various failing tactics.


Except I didn't see either one back you up. Try again.


I never claimed every centimeter was full of knowledge. I love how you take a post, and add your own extreme meaning to it, and pass it off as something I said. Do they teach reading comprehension in Germany? It was an ancient storehouse full of various sith artifacts and holocrons.




Uh yea numbnuts. The whole attack was based around wounds in the force. Nihilus would survive such an attack as would any wound in the force, since KOTOR II suggests such.


ROFL. I love how you translate it to try and fit your meaning. There's absolutely no evidence that Dooku would defend against it. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Borbarad
And, going by your own standards: Prove that this technique can even be used in a fight. I never did see anybody using it in actual combat.
Good comback. Now prove any of dooku's techniques could be used in actual combat.



Let me go through the reality check with you:


I've destroyed your pitiful attempts at arguing. I win.

I've already accused you of using double standards. Using the "I know you are but what am I" logic makes you look dumber than you already are.

Seeing as how i've destroyed your argument and you began the namecalling, I'd say you're making a fool out of yourself yet again.

Invictus Legio
Triple Post...
The ultimate weapon...

Borbarad

Borbarad
Excuse me? All we have seen so far from you is one pity ad hominem following the other. But you won't be able to drive the attention away from the fact that you're doing nothing here but dodging my points and trying to insult me, which simply doesn't work, because I don't care about the personal opinion of a person, that just happens to be alive because euthanasia is against the law in our Western Civilization. Lucky you.



Shall I quote you again?
"Except it was said that Revan found underground cities of sith artifacts and holocrons."
Huh?

If I toss a "bucket of shit" at you, would you expect being hit by a bucket filled with shit, or just a bucket that mainly contains air and a few atoms of shit? I wonder. Because apparently, you must suggest the latter when "cities of Sith artifacts and holocrons" (source of that quote still missing, as I predicted - lol) are not filled with artifacts and holocrons.



Wow. You totally IGNORED the point. Sion is not a wound in the force. Kreia is not a wound in the force. Both survived the attack. Therefore your "you have to be a wound in the force to do so" craptastic argument doesn't work.



Once more: It attacks the connection between the living thing and the force. Qey'Tek masks that very connection. Therefore, their would be nothing to attack here. That aside, the technique has still never been used during combat, so it won't be useable in this duel anyway, right? Again Sexy gets defeated by his own standards. Lovely.



Look how Sexy managed to dodge the point again. So as a matter of fact, Sexy admits that neither Malak nor Kreia can use the force drain in combat, limiting them to force choke (Malak) and force lightning (Malak) + oh damn - levitating some lightsabers - for Kreia. Good god, people. Dooku will be totally overwhelmed with that stuff...



You're not only failing to come up with own points, your also totally failing to address any of mine. You're simply dodging them. You lose (like always. Current count Nai VS Sexy = 3.5 billion to zero).



Wow. Another one of those grammatical constructions that not even god would be able to understand. So you admit you use double-standards but that's cool, as long as you accused me (notice: not provided proof for it) that I do that, too. Nice tro...erm..."debating" their, you shithead.



Seeing as how you've dodged the argument entirely, made shit up, used double-standards and, despite of that, still not managed to come up with anything that could even be remotely considered an "argument", I have to state that you simply suck. Therefore, you will now be able to experience the fun of talking to my ignore function, because I don't have enough time to waste it talking to lifeforms like yourself.

And with "lifeforms like yourself" I mean slime-licking worms, who can do nothing but skim off the drool of the other "kick-ass debators". People that have archieved nothing here but an unusual symbiosis of their hands with their pants, and the dried meat rotting inside of them. People that are, in general, just slimy, sleazy laughing stocks. And now you can go and talk to the hand, since the face doesn't listen any longer, Darth TDTD.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Borbarad
Welcome back, horrible excuse for a debater. Let me correct my previous statement: Every dumbass capable of reading "Legacy of the Jedi" would know that Dooku did access the holocron he stole with Lorian Nod. The Telos holocron? Right. How the hell would somebody store the voice record (and holographic image) of another person in a holocron. You fail.
Again. Stupid ass. Prove that he had access to the holocron. Don't just type the source. You make an assertion, you prove it. Otherwise you'll be the same dumbass debater you are now.


Hey, if you can post, even a blind squirrel can find a nut.




Translation: I have not proved my argument nor disproved TD but since I like to play I know you are but what am I, I will continue to do so. I will berate DS concerning everything he critisizes me. I love projection because I am a tool. You fail





So my contention is that you lack reading comprehension skills. Your rebuttal is..."No you lack comprehension skills lolz!" Good one dumbass. And your argument following this is an assumption based on....Nothing? And your assumption as usual proves..Nothing? Good job stupid.




It doesn't take any effort to outdebate a dumbass like you Nai. You haven't offered any evidence. Just the bitching of a 10 year old trapped inside a 25+ year old foreigner's body. Still no common sense, still no argument.




So because they haven't shown to demonstrate force defense, they can't?!!! What does Dooku have that will make them have to block it? Better question is, what does Dooku do when he gets his ass drained?


ROFL. I guess Traya's command of beast language will make it Dooku vs. beasts! See the stupidity you're spouting?




Oh right. Back to double standards and Nai continuously embarrassing himself. I guess then Traya and Malak have access to korriban, malachor, and more ridiculous rituals that pwn Dooku. Btw, prove Sidious knew the force drain technique, seeing as how there's nothing suggesting it. And the embarrassment continues.




The evidence states nothing of the sort. Just because you say so doesn't make it fact. Your argument is "I say Dooku has more therefore he does MUAHAHA". Sorry Nai, you lose again. You lose again.




Translation: DS has a point I can't counter so I'm going to type up some ludicrous crap and then accuse DS of not having the material because I'm a moron. You have no point as usual Nai.


A is fact according to the sources. You lose. B would make sense except that Revan plundered the treasures there and then had his sith posse plunder more, so that's two points you're trying to make that argue against canon. C would make sense if there was ANYTHING that proves it or even backs up it. Seeing as how there's nothing that does and Kun went to Yavin 4 immediately, your little game of "I'm going to interpret the sources anyway that fits my argument because I'm a moron", fails. D would make sense if B didn't happen.


You're rolling your eyes because you're retarded. It's ok Nai I forgive you. Malak was with Revan when they went into the cave on Dantooine. I guess logically, because Malak was Revan's apprentice, Revan shared an X amount of knowledge with him, assuming they BOTH weren't on Korriban together. Way to prove my argument dumbass.




Yes. 2 years after Revan and Malak plundered Korriban, the sith were STILL finding things. Destroys your argument.




ROFL. Yes. All of Malachor V and Korriban is shit, but lets assume Darth Sidious taught EVERYTHING to Dooku. I think that you're too stupid to understand that everything Sidious had included artifacts from Korriban and Malachor. There is NO argument for Dooku>the duo, as you are continously proving.


Every bit of SW canon points against you Nai. Embarrassing yourself with constant denial won't change that. Stop lying to yourself. Pwned again.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me? All we have seen so far from you is one pity ad hominem following the other. But you won't be able to drive the attention away from the fact that you're doing nothing here but dodging my points and trying to insult me, which simply doesn't work, because I don't care about the personal opinion of a person, that just happens to be alive because euthanasia is against the law in our Western Civilization. Lucky you.
I wish you knew what ad hominem was, otherwise you wouldn't be committing it. Instead, you're committing it, to which I'm responding, to which you're too dumb to realize you're committing it. Since you have no points to dodge in that weak excuse for an argument, I'll just continue to destroy whatever is left over. You are a prime example of why abortion should be allowed in this country.



Are you even trying anymore or have you given up?




Except there was no such attack on Sion, nor on Kreia. I know the route you're going with the "omgz its the same attack lolz!" It's basically a sad attempt from an incompetent foreigner who lacks debating skills.




Awww poor Nai. He has no argument so he's going to try and claim that being a wound in the force is the exact same thing as a Qey'Tek. You're really embarrassing yourself Nai.




ROFL. Even if they can't use it, which all evidence points to them being able to, that doesn't leave much for Dooku and his.. Wait what's he going to do again? Poor Nai. all out of options.




Seeing as how you've been defeated on virtually every point, your denial is as predictable as it always is when you're getting your ass kickedsmile




Nope, I admit to accusing you of using double standards then proving it. Then I call you a dumbass because you spout off the "I know you are but what am I" rhetoric without backing anything up. Like all of your arguments.




Translation: I've really embarrassed myself here but since i can't admit defeat because I have terribly low self esteem, I will accuse DS of doing everything i've done via projection.



Translation: I am a tool that has been owned by DS. Since I have no dignity left, I'm going to ramble on incoherently like an angry little schoolgirl.

SIDIOUS 66
Nai, i agree with you that Dooku takes this, and would most likely survive Kreia's force drain, due to his greater power in the force. But, i don't think Qey'Tek is a defense against force drain. Qey'Tek just masks the force, but the force is still there, just not noticed.

Kotor3
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nai, i agree with you that Dooku takes this, and would most likely survive Kreia's force drain, due to his greater power in the force. But, i don't think Qey'Tek is a defense against force drain. Qey'Tek just masks the force, but the force is still there, just not noticed.

How much greater is Dooku than Kreia in terms of force power? What does it take out of a person to resist such an attack? Especially from someone who may be close in power level to them? When it was executed Kreia she was not strip but she was left defenseless. If executed on Dooku and he is able to resist he has to do so quickly enough that Malak does not kill him while he is distracted. Is there a record of someone being able to do so? We also have the fact that we have no idea if Dooku is familiar with such an attack and can block it.

The only way I see Dooku wining is if he able to engage them in a saber battle as quickly as Sidious did the Jedi council members that went to arrest him. I do not see Dooku being able to compete in a force battle.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Kotor3
How much greater is Dooku than Kreia in terms of force power?


What? You know that Kreia's supposed "greatness" in terms of force abilities comes from the fact that she owned people with a force technique that said people didn't have a defence against, right? She was tooled by an average Jedi who's only specialty was to resist said attack. So. Kreia's skill - that technique aside - doesn't seems to be very special.



Urm. As mentioned before. You suppose that Dooku will stand there and let himself be attacked from two different positions without doing anything? Dooku has demonstrated the ability to cope with enemy force attacks - unlike Kreia and Malak. He also has demonstrated the ability to simply kick the living shit out of some of the best force users / duellists of his own era - with apparent ease.

So. Let's for the fun assume that Dooku attacks his opponents with force lightning and they attempt to use something against him. What would happen? Do they all die? Does the duo die and Dooku survives (lack of force defense on their side)? I don't know. But simply assuming that Kreia will come up with "da instakill" when she never performed the action in actual combat is a little bit off, don't you think so?



There aren't seperate stages of a confrontation between force users. There will be neither a pure "force battle" nor a pure "saber battle". Dooku could still simply charge one of them and melee attack while using a force attack as back-up. The result would be a knocked out / defeated opponent. Plain and simple. He could also just start the fight with force lightning on both of them simultaneously. Like to see what would happen then.

Come in and go: "Oh well. They are two and he's alone. He can't do that" doesn't work. That would still assume that Dooku simply stands there and waits until both opponents attack him simultaneously. You consider that a likely situation, considering Dooku is known for taking it up with multiple force users and come out on top?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Kotor3
How much greater is Dooku than Kreia in terms of force power? What does it take out of a person to resist such an attack? Especially from someone who may be close in power level to them? When it was executed Kreia she was not strip but she was left defenseless. If executed on Dooku and he is able to resist he has to do so quickly enough that Malak does not kill him while he is distracted. Is there a record of someone being able to do so? We also have the fact that we have no idea if Dooku is familiar with such an attack and can block it.

The only way I see Dooku wining is if he able to engage them in a saber battle as quickly as Sidious did the Jedi council members that went to arrest him. I do not see Dooku being able to compete in a force battle.

See that is why i said the duo would most likely win.

Kreia has never used the drain on a force user on Dooku's level. Dooku was a master of TK, and would probably use it on her before she can use the drain. I am pretty sure Dooku is aware of the drain since he had access to restricted knowledge from the Jedi Temple.

Publius II
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nai, i agree with you that Dooku takes this, and would most likely survive Kreia's force drain, due to his greater power in the force. But, i don't think Qey'Tek is a defense against force drain. Qey'Tek just masks the force, but the force is still there, just not noticed. This is definitely true. Note that Traya herself killed an entire squad of masked, invisible Sith assassins with the severing technique; if she can sense someone through the Force, she can almost certainly try to hit them with it.

Likewise, Dooku has never gone up against a dark-side practitioner on her level in combat. He has thoroughly decimated about three-quarters of the major characters in the Republic line, as well as several of his own minions, but none of them compare to Traya in mastery of the Force. She herself killed a trio of battle-ready High Council Jedi Masters with a wave of her hand, after casually flooring one of them with a Force-push twice in a row.

That said, I would probably put my money on Dooku in a fight between the two. While his ability to defend against the severing technique is dubious at best, it is likely that he's more than powerful enough to hold his own against the rest of her arsenal; telekinesis is his specialty, and he is one of four individuals in the mythos to deflect or contain Sith lightning with his bare hands. Of the others, one was arguably the most powerful Force-user to date, another had become "one with the Force," and the third was... badass.

If Dooku can get around Traya's signature move and work his way past her Force-defenses, he'll slaughter her with his lightsaber. I don't know how Darth Sion would fit into this, though.

Kotor3

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Publius II
This is definitely true. Note that Traya herself killed an entire squad of masked, invisible Sith assassins with the severing technique; if she can sense someone through the Force, she can almost certainly try to hit them with it.

Likewise, Dooku has never gone up against a dark-side practitioner on her level in combat. He has thoroughly decimated about three-quarters of the major characters in the Republic line, as well as several of his own minions, but none of them compare to Traya in mastery of the Force. She herself killed a trio of battle-ready High Council Jedi Masters with a wave of her hand, after casually flooring one of them with a Force-push twice in a row.

That said, I would probably put my money on Dooku in a fight between the two. While his ability to defend against the severing technique is dubious at best, it is likely that he's more than powerful enough to hold his own against the rest of her arsenal; telekinesis is his specialty, and he is one of four individuals in the mythos to deflect or contain Sith lightning with his bare hands. Of the others, one was arguably the most powerful Force-user to date, another had become "one with the Force," and the third was... badass.

If Dooku can get around Traya's signature move and work his way past her Force-defenses, he'll slaughter her with his lightsaber. I don't know how Darth Sion would fit into this, though.
While I agree with basically all of your assessment faunus, this is a fight featuring both Traya AND Malak. There's just no real argument for dooku overcoming the two in a force battle.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Publius II
This is definitely true. Note that Traya herself killed an entire squad of masked, invisible Sith assassins with the severing technique; if she can sense someone through the Force, she can almost certainly try to hit them with it.


Actually, you're mentioning the two main points here yourself.

a)
That anything noticeable Traya has done was accomplished via a technique that there was no defense against in her own time. If I tell you that I killed an entire SWAT team (equivalent: killing the Jedi Masters / Sith Assassins), that sounds impressive. If you find out that the SWAT team was tied up and I merely used them as targets , that certainly makes the former feat appear less impressive - in fact utterly worthless, correct?

b)
The other keyword: "If she can sense somebody through the force". Yes, that would be helpful and it's exactly what Qey'Tek would prevent. So the first question would be if Kreia can successfully use the technique against Dooku. The next question would be, if she can even use it instantly. In all situations the technique was applied, the user had several minutes of preperation time. In fact: If Kreia could do that at will, 90 % of KotoR II doesn't make any sense. She should just run around and WTFforcerape anybody in her way. And the last thing would be: Even if she would be able to use the technique in a fight, you really want to assume that Dooku will just stand there and drink a Martini while Kreia attacks him with the force?



Well. What is "her level" in terms of combat if we just exclude the drain thingy. Oh yes: Without it, she has her ass handed to her by the likes of Sion or the Exile. And you really think she can go 1vs1 against Dooku and live to tell the tale?



Urm? We have seen Dooku force-raping several Dark Jedi, two Jedi Masters, the Chosen One and one Jedi Council Member. The action that Traya pulled of against the Masters just work because they couldn't put up any defense against the technique. Dooku destroyed individuals quite capable of defending themselves with the force. It didn't help them too much, did it?



Fine with me.
It's Malak and not Sion by the way. But I wonder. What force defenses are you talking about? You can look into any source present about the KotoR time. Once a technique is fired, it hits. Those people apparently don't care or don't have any actual "force defense" in the sense of "force bubbles to protect them" like the later generations. Apparently, they just survive force attacks out of sheer luck (e.g. Kun resisting the Wall of Light) or because being head and shoulders above their respective opponents.

Otherwise it doesn't make much sense to enable Malak to actually put Revan into a force stun. Or that force attacks actually always hit. Now you can ask yourself what Traya, defeated by an average Jedi, and Malak - who couldn't even take down Revan when powered up by the Star Forge - would be able to put into a battle against Dooku. Theire uber cool force abilities - or their mega lightsaber skills? This against an opponent who, I may point it out once more, did smoke several Jedi duos.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Kotor3
That is the point Nai. Can you prove that there is a defense to the technique? As far as I know not that many people knew of the technique at all. If you remember the Jedi Masters were using a Jedi form of the technique on the exile. So they were not ignorant of the technique. Which means one of the two or both, Kreia is either quite powerful or the Jedi knew how to use the technique as Kreia did but could not defend against it as Kreia could not against her pupil when he used the attack on her.


They were not using a light side variation of the technique. The force sever they used against the Exile is a technique that "traps" a force user inside his own self, not seperating the living being from the force.

The thing Kreia used literally rips apart any connection between the living thing and the force and THEN drains whatever kind of mystical energy released by that process. Two entirely different things here.

And please: You think that the Jedi simply didn't care about a technique as potent as that in the hand of her enemies. Especially considering we're talking about a Jedi order here that was rebuilt by people witnissing the technique in action first hand? Then, on top of that, you also assume that the Sith - at least from Bane's time on (he had Revan's holocron) wouldn't use such a devastating attack in combat if they could do the job? I neither saw Bane, nor Zannah nor Sidious using such a technique in combat.



I called the Exile an "average Jedi" because this is the judgement that Vrook give about her. Anakin? Oh. He is just the Chosen One, the most powerful force user ever, and happened to need his entire potential, unleashed by using the Dark side, in order to defeat Dooku. Who just force raped him twice before. Dooku has been mentioned directly as on of the most powerful being in history, an even greater Sith and - sorry - had Dooku confronted the "regular" Anakin not unlocking his complete potential against him, the young Skywalker would have died a miserable death. Simply watch Dooku fighting him on Geonosis, Tatooine and in the first part of the RotS duel. There isn't even a contest.



What? Kreia doesn't waste time? She sad in front of the academy on Dantooine and waited for minutes until the Exile was about to get her force connection stripped. Kreia acted in the last moment. Drama, baby. And on Malachor V - basically the same. She walks into a bunch of Sith Assassins before killing them. The end fight? Just the same. First action with Sion on Telos - the same.

She does hesitate far more than Dooku does, and I didn't know that character traits have impacts on VS-fights now.



Kreia doesn't have a lightsaber and just putting the lightsaber in the way also doesn't work. Even if you manage to do the job, you could still end up with the blade being pushed into your face - especialy when up against somebody like Dooku who force-multitasks on a regular basis (e.g. = lightning comes with a force push - ouch).



Once more. Dooku is capable of deflecting lightning with his bare hands. Neither Malak nor Kreia has demonstrated such ability at all. Dooku is capable to perform multiple force manouvers simultaneously. So who is going to be the last man standing - most likely - if they all fire force lightning at eachother?



Urm. Tell me how Malak and Traya a "very knowledgeable" in the force department particularly darkside techniques. None of them uses more than the basic techniques in actual combat. And since when are fights in the SW universe decided by "knowledge"?



You notice that Dooku also wiped the floor with any Darksider he encountered with the exception of Sidious himself, right? And WTF? Dooku, as you have mentioned, was a Jedi Master. Note: He belonged to a group of beings that focused on defensive uses for the force. He had access to the Great Holocron which has enough knowledge in it that it has been said not even Yoda could have mastered all of it over his entire lifespan. That's the same Dooku that main interested was the art of duelling (so he would most likely attempt to learn anything that could be an advantage for him on that field) and the same Dooku who is one of three beings (with the other two being the most powerful Dark Sider / Light Sider in the saga up to that point) to deflect force lightning with his bare hands.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Borbarad
And please: You think that the Jedi simply didn't care about a technique as potent as that in the hand of her enemies. Especially considering we're talking about a Jedi order here that was rebuilt by people witnissing the technique in action first hand? Then, on top of that, you also assume that the Sith - at least from Bane's time on (he had Revan's holocron) wouldn't use such a devastating attack in combat if they could do the job? I neither saw Bane, nor Zannah nor Sidious using such a technique in combat.
Here's the problem. Your argument solely rests on "you think" or "it's unlikely that..," or "I don't think". You have nothing to back up any of these claims. These are just opinions you are stating to fit your argument. And your ridiculous notion that the KOTOR Jedi had no force shields.. Prove it. I don't recall any kind of force shield that would work against Kreia's attack, nor Nihilus' attack. They weren't defenseless, there is just no defense for this technique, not then not now unless you can prove it. Not to mention this technique was apparently learned through two methods.
1. Becoming a wound in the force
2. Malachor V. The reason that the mentioned characters didn't use this technique is because they didn't know it. Furthermore, you have no idea what Revan included in his holocron and there is nothing suggesting that Revan poured his entire knowledge in it. Even if you suggested as much, Revan's knowledge is worth a few weeks while Nadd's is worth 10 years? Right.




Except Anakin's potential is completely irrelevant. In time he would be the most powerful force user ever. During Dooku's time, he was hardly an above average force user. I wouldn't even go into your assumption that Anakin needed his entire potential to defeat Dooku, because this is so absurd I doubt it's going to get a response from anybody on this forum. So your conclusion is based on a set of false premises that YOU created. Not very smart. Also, constantly parading around those quotes about Dooku, doesn't do anything in a versus fight.




no


Then I guess you can't include your argument of "Do you think Dooku is just going to stand there drinking a martini".




Except apparently most sith during the JCW and after knew force lightning. Malak certainly did. And you're suggesting Traya didn't? Evidence and inference point against you.




Deflecting lightning with his bare hands? You mean the deflection of Yoda's deflection? Furthermore, are you suggesting he could deflect Bane's lightning, or Sidious? I'm not saying Malak and Traya are on their level, but there's nothing to suggest he can deflect someone else's lightning, nor break through their defenses with his own.




Captain double standards, tell us what Dooku knows? "The ability to multitask"? Doesn't work. Traya knows the drain. There's absolutely no evidence that Dooku could block it, despite your repeated pleas.





Terrible argument. Any darksider? There are only 2 sith, and a bunch of pretenders. Not exactly comparable to Malak's time when there were thousands of sith. You're trying so desperately to make an argument that's due to fail, that you're including ridiculous premises, absurd opinions, and just flat out terrible logic.

Kotor3
Originally posted by Borbarad
They were not using a light side variation of the technique. The force sever they used against the Exile is a technique that "traps" a force user inside his own self, not seperating the living being from the force.

The thing Kreia used literally rips apart any connection between the living thing and the force and THEN drains whatever kind of mystical energy released by that process. Two entirely different things here. Nai I usually respect your arguments but I do not know what you are trying to do here. I know what the techniques do. The point is both render the user defenseless to the force and unable to use it. However those who used it were unable to defend themselves against the technique.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And please: You think that the Jedi simply didn't care about a technique as potent as that in the hand of her enemies. Especially considering we're talking about a Jedi order here that was rebuilt by people witnissing the technique in action first hand? Then, on top of that, you also assume that the Sith - at least from Bane's time on (he had Revan's holocron) wouldn't use such a devastating attack in combat if they could do the job? I neither saw Bane, nor Zannah nor Sidious using such a technique in combat. You mentioning this proves what? What an assumption to imply that the technique was of no concern since future Siths did not use it. Perhaps is simply means they had no knowledge of it since it may have not been passed down. You are assuming Revan passed that knowledge down or perhaps it was one of the techniques that scared Bane.

For the record seeing and experiencing does not mean you know how to replicate.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I called the Exile an "average Jedi" because this is the judgement that Vrook give about her. Anakin? Oh. He is just the Chosen One, the most powerful force user ever, and happened to need his entire potential, unleashed by using the Dark side, in order to defeat Dooku. Who just force raped him twice before. Dooku has been mentioned directly as on of the most powerful being in history, an even greater Sith and - sorry - had Dooku confronted the "regular" Anakin not unlocking his complete potential against him, the young Skywalker would have died a miserable death. Simply watch Dooku fighting him on Geonosis, Tatooine and in the first part of the RotS duel. There isn't even a contest.
Your point! Vrook comments mean what? At the end of the game the exile was much more powerful. Anyway DS answered this already.


Originally posted by Borbarad
What? Kreia doesn't waste time? She sad in front of the academy on Dantooine and waited for minutes until the Exile was about to get her force connection stripped. Kreia acted in the last moment. Drama, baby. And on Malachor V - basically the same. She walks into a bunch of Sith Assassins before killing them. The end fight? Just the same. First action with Sion on Telos - the same.

She does hesitate far more than Dooku does, and I didn't know that character traits have impacts on VS-fights now.
What?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Kreia doesn't have a lightsaber and just putting the lightsaber in the way also doesn't work. Even if you manage to do the job, you could still end up with the blade being pushed into your face - especialy when up against somebody like Dooku who force-multitasks on a regular basis (e.g. = lightning comes with a force push - ouch). You only need one to block and she uses three. Without going through everything else you said. I gave a reasonable way in which Dooku could engage the fight and win. You have shown nothing that points to Dooku being superior to the combine might of both of them in the force department or being able to block a force drain. Thus Dooku gets force rape. End of discussion.

Publius II
Originally posted by Borbarad
Actually, you're mentioning the two main points here yourself.

a)
That anything noticeable Traya has done was accomplished via a technique that there was no defense against in her own time. If I tell you that I killed an entire SWAT team (equivalent: killing the Jedi Masters / Sith Assassins), that sounds impressive. If you find out that the SWAT team was tied up and I merely used them as targets , that certainly makes the former feat appear less impressive - in fact utterly worthless, correct?

b)
The other keyword: "If she can sense somebody through the force". Yes, that would be helpful and it's exactly what Qey'Tek would prevent. So the first question would be if Kreia can successfully use the technique against Dooku. The next question would be, if she can even use it instantly. In all situations the technique was applied, the user had several minutes of preperation time. In fact: If Kreia could do that at will, 90 % of KotoR II doesn't make any sense. She should just run around and WTFforcerape anybody in her way. And the last thing would be: Even if she would be able to use the technique in a fight, you really want to assume that Dooku will just stand there and drink a Martini while Kreia attacks him with the force?



Well. What is "her level" in terms of combat if we just exclude the drain thingy. Oh yes: Without it, she has her ass handed to her by the likes of Sion or the Exile. And you really think she can go 1vs1 against Dooku and live to tell the tale?



Urm? We have seen Dooku force-raping several Dark Jedi, two Jedi Masters, the Chosen One and one Jedi Council Member. The action that Traya pulled of against the Masters just work because they couldn't put up any defense against the technique. Dooku destroyed individuals quite capable of defending themselves with the force. It didn't help them too much, did it?



Fine with me.
It's Malak and not Sion by the way. But I wonder. What force defenses are you talking about? You can look into any source present about the KotoR time. Once a technique is fired, it hits. Those people apparently don't care or don't have any actual "force defense" in the sense of "force bubbles to protect them" like the later generations. Apparently, they just survive force attacks out of sheer luck (e.g. Kun resisting the Wall of Light) or because being head and shoulders above their respective opponents.

Otherwise it doesn't make much sense to enable Malak to actually put Revan into a force stun. Or that force attacks actually always hit. Now you can ask yourself what Traya, defeated by an average Jedi, and Malak - who couldn't even take down Revan when powered up by the Star Forge - would be able to put into a battle against Dooku. Theire uber cool force abilities - or their mega lightsaber skills? This against an opponent who, I may point it out once more, did smoke several Jedi duos. I had a good response to this, when I was on the preview page, pressed backspace without realizing I'd just gotten a pop-up. My post died.

I'll get back to this when I'm less annoyed.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nai, i agree with you that Dooku takes this, and would most likely survive Kreia's force drain, due to his greater power in the force.
Dooku is powerful enough to take on and defeat two powerful Dark Lords of the Sith simultaneously? Am I missing something? roll eyes (sarcastic)

If Dooku was that damn good than Sidious would'nt have to look for a more powerful apprentice. Dooku would be sufficient to carry Sidious' agenda.

Dooku was good and all but he wasn't a "Force Titan" like Darth Sidious, as some people here are trying to portray him to be. I am willing to bet that even George Lucas will agree with me on this.

And how Dooku will be able to block Traya's Force Sever attack? Being "powerful" is not enough. Please do mention a defensive technique, which Dooku can use to block the Force Sever attack (if he really knows one such).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But, i don't think Qey'Tek is a defense against force drain. Qey'Tek just masks the force, but the force is still there, just not noticed.
I agree with you here!

DorianYates
And why would lucas agree with you legend?

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku is powerful enough to take on and defeat two powerful Dark Lords of the Sith simultaneously? Am I missing something? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Really? So all individuals who attain a title have similar skill levels? I guess that Johun Othone (Jedi Knight) could take RotS Anakin (who was also a Jedi Knight). The truth is, titles mean very little during a versus match. Ventress wasn't a Sith, yet she killed ~17 Jedi masters. That Kreia and Sion are DLotS is largely irrelevant.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

If Dooku was that damn good than Sidious would'nt have to look for a more powerful apprentice. Dooku would be sufficient to carry Sidious' agenda.
O...K? I'm not sure why this is relevant. Dooku was good, Anakin had the potential to be better. Sidious wanted the best. Of course he would trade up.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Dooku was good and all but he wasn't a "Force Titan" like Darth Sidious, as some people here are trying to portray him to be. I am willing to bet that even George Lucas will agree with me on this.
Wow! You can make assertions! Good Job! eek!

no expression

Do you have any evidence that Lucas would agree? Evidence that has a higher canonicity rating (I think I just made that term up but you know what I mean) than the RotS novelization that was approved by Lucas himself? I don't think you do.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And how Dooku will be able to block Traya's Force Sever attack? Being "powerful" is not enough. Please do mention a defensive technique, which Dooku can use to block the Force Sever attack (if he really knows one such).
Nai has been over this. If Kreia can't find a connection to sever, then she can't attack. Dooku's mastery of Quey'tek will prevent him from being targeted by the insta-kill.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


I agree with you here!

How does one attack something that can't be noticed?

Darth Sexy
No RH, Nai has not been over this. The Quey'tek technique won't stop an instakill.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No RH, Nai has not been over this. The Quey'tek technique won't stop an instakill.

My initials are 'RN'.

Also, it may not stop an instakill but it will avert an instakill. Dooku can't have his connection to the force destroyed (or consumed or annihilated or whatever) if it can't be found. That's what the Quey'tek technique will do.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku is powerful enough to take on and defeat two powerful Dark Lords of the Sith simultaneously? Am I missing something? roll eyes (sarcastic) I said i think the two of them can probably pull it off. TOGETHER!

No. Sidious wanted an apprentice potentially more powerful than he was, and Dooku was not. That does not mean Traya is more poweful than Dooku, unless you are saying she is Sidious's equal?



Who portrayed him to be "like" Sidious? Traya is also on a way lower level than Sidious.

Well as Faunus said, that is dubious. We never see Traya use the drain on an individual as powerful as Dooku. I don't think Dooku would give her a chance. He can use TK or lightning just as fast as she can use her drain.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
My initials are 'RN'.

Also, it may not stop an instakill but it will avert an instakill. Dooku can't have his connection to the force destroyed (or consumed or annihilated or whatever) if it can't be found. That's what the Quey'tek technique will do.

The only way this arguement works, is if you are saying Dooku walks into this battle pretending not to be force sensitive. Quey'tek is usually used when a force user does not want their presence known. As long as she knows Dooku is a force sensitive, she can most likely use the drain on him.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only way this arguement works, is if you are saying Dooku walks into this battle pretending not to be force sensitive. Quey'tek is usually used when a force user does not want their presence known. As long as she knows Dooku is a force sensitive, she can most likely use the drain on him.

exactly

DorianYates
And has it been proven that kreia can simply wave her hand and kill any jedi or sith, especially those on the levels of dooku?

That technique is seriously overrated, it drops 3 nobodies in the force who happen to be masters and then some people assume it can cause force users like dooku to drop easily as well.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by DorianYates
And has it been proven that kreia can simply wave her hand and kill any jedi or sith, especially those on the levels of dooku?
This is irrelevant. First, you'd have to prove there's a defense for this technique. Secondly, you'd have to prove DOOKU had a defense for this technique. Finally, if this is the route you're going to go, then I'd like for you to prove any of Dooku's techniques would work on someone as powerful as Traya.



Hilarious logic. These were 3 masters of the high council. The fact that you'd call them nobodies because they died from a force drain is laughable. I'll use your logic. Dooku pwned nobodies like Ventress and force neophytes like Skywalker and Obiwan, so people automatically assume he could do it to someone of Traya's abilities. Or rather, Traya AND Dooku.

You have absolutely no argument.

Red Nemesis
DS, these arguments are surprisingly weak. Some of them are simply not so.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This is irrelevant. First, you'd have to prove there's a defense for this technique.
Well, to do that one would first need to define the attack. For the majority of the thread I think that the attack being discussed is one with no defense ("There are techniques in the Force against which there are no defense..."wink at the time of KotOR2. For the purposes of the thread it has been defined as an attack on the Force connection of an individual. By rapidly closing (severing?) the target's connection to the Force, severe mental (this was a psychologically based attack) strain or trauma can be caused.


While we cannot simply assume that there was a form of protection invented, it seems very likely (as the advent of any form of protection may have rendered the technique worthless anyway).

That's one way to look at it.

My view is that an attack must have a target. Any assault on a Force connection must first find that Force connection. I wonder... is there a technique that hides one's connection to the Force?
Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Secondly, you'd have to prove DOOKU had a defense for this technique. Finally, if this is the route you're going to go, then I'd like for you to prove any of Dooku's techniques would work on someone as powerful as Traya.
The answer was 'Quey'tek' and Dooku is definitely familiar with it. So, Dooku does have a defense for it.

As far as Dooku's attacks landing on his opponents, we have to look at the types of attacks Dooku uses. The most common ones are direct assaults using some force (non-mystical, although powered by the Force) of nature. Lightning, TK manipulation and Force Choke (which is essentially TK, I guess) are all corporeal attacks that operate on physical matter. The target's personal power level doesn't seem to have any effect on the outcome unless the target is actively defending. Kreia and Malak haven't been shown to be able to catch/handle Force lightning, or even mount a simple Force-based defense. At all. For the purposes of Force fights they are absolutely defenseless except for their lightsaber(s) (to catch lightning).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy


Hilarious logic. These were 3 masters of the high council. The fact that you'd call them nobodies because they died from a force drain is laughable.
They are nobodies because they haven't done anything. Nothing suggests that they were on Dooku's level (who was "one of the greatest Jedi in 25000 years" blah blah blah... this is a direct comparrison: Dooku is one of the greatest in an order to which they belonged. Therefore, he is one of the greatest in their order. Has anything called Kavar one of the greatest anything?) or that they were even particularly powerful.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy

I'll use your logic. Dooku pwned nobodies like Ventress and force neophytes like Skywalker and Obiwan, so people automatically assume he could do it to someone of Traya's abilities. Or rather, Traya AND Dooku.
Dooku will now be pwning Traya and Dooku? What an unfortunate time to develop multiple personality disorder. laughing

Anyway, this is a faulty analogy: The people you mentioned weren't nobodies. To jump from 3 unknown (and unaccomplished) masters to a top-tier combatant like Dooku is entirely different from jumping from some of the PT era's finest to an unsuccessful Sith Lord and a runner up.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

You have absolutely no argument.

You say that a lot, to a lot of different people. Repetition won't make it true, nor will it make the mirror any kinder.


(That was a rubber/glue burn. For the record, I am rubber and you are glue, so whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.)

((Childish insults don't get you anywhere or make your argument any stronger. I hope you've understood this.))

(((I am rubber, though...)))

EDIT: My bad, I accidentally quoted you as Forum Ninja a troll.

Publius II
Why are we assuming that two of the most prominent Force-users of the era are incapable of doing something that younglings are taught before even touching a lightsaber (countering telekinesis)?

Whether they can actually dissipate Dooku's telekinetic attacks is another story, but the two are almost certainly capable of at least mounting a defense.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Publius II
Why are we assuming that two of the most prominent Force-users of the era are incapable of doing something that younglings are taught before even touching a lightsaber (countering telekinesis)?

Whether they can actually dissipate Dooku's telekinetic attacks is another story, but the two are almost certainly capable of at least mounting a defense.


Because it makes them look bad...

In all seriousness, the Force bubble defense/TK coping mechanisms aren't ever shown in the VERY early parts of the Saga. Is there any evidence that the technique exists yet?

Publius II
Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Because it makes them look bad...

In all seriousness, the Force bubble defense/TK coping mechanisms aren't ever shown in the VERY early parts of the Saga. Is there any evidence that the technique exists yet? Nope. But to state otherwise is to assume that they all waded into battle completely incapable of defending themselves against a telekinetic attack, telepathic suggestion, or any variant of lightning or drain.

And keep in mind that Traya specifically notes that the technique employed by Nihilus (and herself?) is one against which "there is no defense." This implies that it is at least unusual for there to be no defense to a given technique, and considering how basic telekinesis is, that's far too much of a stretch.

Red Nemesis
Mental attacks (Force Suggestion) would be defended against simply by will. But you're right- it would be ridiculous. I will have to reconsider.


True dat. Is it possible that instinctive resistance accounts for their defenses?


...

I'm saying stupid things now, what with all the conjecture n' stuff. Still, the likelyhood of Kreia/Malak's defenses to be superior (in nature, ignoring the amount of power used to fuel them) to Dooku's is exceedingly unlikely.

Publius II
Edit

Publius II
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Mental attacks (Force Suggestion) would be defended against simply by will. But you're right- it would be ridiculous. I will have to reconsider.


True dat. Is it possible that instinctive resistance accounts for their defenses?


...

I'm saying stupid things now, what with all the conjecture n' stuff. Still, the likelyhood of Kreia/Malak's defenses to be superior (in nature, ignoring the amount of power used to fuel them) to Dooku's is exceedingly unlikely. Okay.

And you misspelled "likelihood."

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Publius II
Okay.

And you misspelled "likelihood."

I've gotta go. *hangs head in shame*

To the movie room!

(swing vote FTW?)

Publius II
Huh?

(Too much Truculent/Invictus/Kotor3. My brain cells are slowly withering away.)

DorianYates
Seeing how RN already made a rebuta;, i am only going to address a minor part of your post.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This is irrelevant. First, you'd have to prove there's a defense for this technique. Secondly, you'd have to prove DOOKU had a defense for this technique. Finally, if this is the route you're going to go, then I'd like for you to prove any of Dooku's techniques would work on someone as powerful as Traya. I don't have to considering your the one thats claiming it(the "ub3r" drain) will drop anybody down.

If anyone that needs to do the proving, it is certainly you DS, im not trying to be hostile or anything, just want to make that clear.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy

Hilarious logic. These were 3 masters of the high council. The fact that you'd call them nobodies because they died from a force drain is laughable. I'll use your logic. Dooku pwned nobodies like Ventress and force neophytes like Skywalker and Obiwan, so people automatically assume he could do it to someone of Traya's abilities. Or rather, Traya AND Dooku.

You have absolutely no argument. Very hilarious actually considering that those 3 masters had nothing to substantiate their power, ohhhhhhhh they were jedi masters, which means absolute jack.

Going by your logic i guess ventress is a ub3r l33t dark jedi seeing she has killed at least what? A large numbwer of jedi masters(going by what RN and publius II said if i didn't read it wrong).

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Publius II
Huh?

(Too much Truculent/Invictus/Kotor3. My brain cells are slowly withering away.)

Swing Vote is the name of a movie. I was going to go watch a movie. Now I am going to resume watching a movie. Adios.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
DS, these arguments are surprisingly weak. Some of them are simply not so.
Repeatedly stating this doesn't make it so.


Excuse me? Define the attack? Again, you and other people are offering weak rebuttals for this. "Oh that was then but this is now", is NOT a valid argument. One has to PROVE that he can counter the technique in some way, because so far the evidence is against you. And don't start with Quey'tek.



Sure. Here's mine. Your assumption isn't based on anything really. My argument stems from the fact that she downed 3 of the high council members with the wave of her hand, and 10+ sith assassins without moving. I am not going to state that there is no defense for that because while it may be the case, I don't have much proof of that and it doesn't hurt my argument. What my contention is, if there IS a defense, does Count Dooku know it? There hasn't been any kind of proof that there is a defense for this technique so how can one ignore that part of the argument and skip right to the idea that Dooku has a defense because (enter verbal fellatio of dooku quote here_.


You do realize that the Quey'tek works when one isn't looking for a specific force connection from a specific user in a specific vicinity? This is a 2 on 1 fight where the opponents are facing each other. Are you claiming that the sith will "see" dooku but they won't "feel" him in the force? I'll entertain this idea but it's laughable at best. Lets say Dooku makes the first move. That opens him up to the force. After that, it would take a wave of the hand to severe Dooku from the force. Dooku would have to take out Kreia first with some kind of force attack or with the stroke of his saber if he's to survive. But then again, the Quey'tek technique isn't sufficient for what Traya has.


They were on the high council, they were the best of their time. Calling them nobodies is ridiculous. You're looking for fellatable sources for your argument. IT won't work. Sources like that won't determine a versus fight unless they establish some sort of hierarchy. And again, this is Dooku vs. Malak and Traya. While I doubt Dooku could defeat Traya in the force, that is questionable. What is hardly questionable is Dooku's ability against traya AND Malak.



The point was to diminish their statuses to further my argument, as Dorian Yates attempted.



I'm still waiting on a valid argument as to how Dooku would defeat Traya and Malak. Let me guess. Because he's (insert quotes here)?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by DorianYates
Seeing how RN already made a rebuta;, i am only going to address a minor part of your post.
No, it wasn't a rebuttal, it was an attempt at one.


While I'm not a debating extraordinaire like Escape or Faunus, I do know the basics. For instance, my contention is that she has the force drain which, according to sources, there is no defense for. YOU are claiming Dooku can defend against it so the burden of proof shifts to you.


Deflection. I've been guilty of it repeatedly. You're doing the same thing.



High Council members, the best of their order. Still, the fact that Traya says there is no defense. Whether this technique is borne of the ancient sith, malachor V, or of being a would in the force, you have no proof that it can be defended against.


I never claimed Ventress was trash. I was just showing you how you're attempting to weaken certain characters to strengthen your argument, unsuccessfully.

GenomeFrozener
Dooku dies painfully.

Forum Ninja
I agree. Dooku is considerably skilled but these two are quite powerful by themselves, let alone fighting together.

DorianYates
Originally posted by Darth Sexy



While I'm not a debating extraordinaire like Escape or Faunus, I do know the basics. For instance, my contention is that she has the force drain which, according to sources, there is no defense for. YOU are claiming Dooku can defend against it so the burden of proof shifts to you. All i asked was that if it was proven that traya can simply drop any one with that force attack DS, where exactly did i even claim dooku could block it?

How about the fact that a 4000 year gap between the two eras would in time a defence be developed for? Didn't advent point this out before?

And please name the "sources" that state that technique has no defence for it, let me guess, ms ugly kreia?

Right lets not forget she is highly fallible considering she made claims about the ancient sith making revan and friends look like children in combat despite never seeing them in combat(and the fact that naga sadow, one of the most infamous ancient sith had his amulet aiding him in pulling out a brick on a dark side empowered world).

Name another source and ill shut up.


Originally posted by Darth Sexy

High Council members, the best of their order. Still, the fact that Traya says there is no defense. Whether this technique is borne of the ancient sith, malachor V, or of being a would in the force, you have no proof that it can be defended against.
I don't get it, if her technique severs peoples connection and if ones connection is mask, how do you sever something you cannot see?

Doesn't que'tek mask your force connection? And the fact that dooku is sort of good in this technique?
Originally posted by Darth Sexy

I never claimed Ventress was trash. I was just showing you how you're attempting to weaken certain characters to strengthen your argument, unsuccessfully. I'm not even trying to weaken any characters, i mean why should i even have the thought of doing that when there is absolutely nothing to substantiate their powers or combat prowess?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by DorianYates
All i asked was that if it was proven that traya can simply drop any one with that force attack DS, where exactly did i even claim dooku could block it?
Seeing as how anytime she used that technique, her opponent died, I believe I have an argument and you don't. It is up to you to prove that Dooku has a defense for it.


Stop riding other people's arguments. Even if she pointed it out, doesn't mean it's right. Stating an assumption without any sort of proof isn't a valid argument.


Yup. Kreia has no reason to lie. And in KOTOR there was no defense for it. Again if you plan on saying that after 4,000 years there IS a technique for it, then prove it.


I don't have to. She may be a fallible 3rd party character in regards to ancient sith, but that doesn't make her statements any less true. Furthermore, there's nothing fallible about her describing a technique to the Exile seeing as how throughout the game, it's been proven true. You've yet to provide an argument. Simply challenging mine doesn't help you.



This is a 2 on 1. You're bringing up the technique in the case of someone not looking for the force user. Remember, Obiwan was looking for Dooku specifically while Dooku was using the technique and he found him. That technique is not infallible as it's been proven, especially when it's 2 against one, looking at each other.

DorianYates
I'll respond to that bag of dirt later, i got serious work to do.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by DorianYates
I'll respond to that bag of dirt later, i got serious work to do.

Translation: I have no rebuttal

Darth Exodus
Qey'tek isn't an unbreakable defence as some people consider it to be, considering (damn, no synonyms, brain freeze) that Obi-wan was able to brake through it (on Tythe) because he knew where to look. With Dooku standing right in front of I'm sure the duo could do the same. They're not bli-.......... well, Malak's not blind you know.

Darth Exodus
BOOOORRRRRIIIIIINNNNNGGGGG!!!!!!!

Bump.

Borbarad
Sorry. Due to my ISP totally screwing my connection, I didn't have any I-Net access during the last days / weeks.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Nai I usually respect your arguments but I do not know what you are trying to do here. I know what the techniques do. The point is both render the user defenseless to the force and unable to use it. However those who used it were unable to defend themselves against the technique.


The question is what is attacked by the technique. As far as we know, the "instakill" attack is aimed against the force connection of a living being. Now: What do you want to aim the attack it, when the force connection is hidden (Qey'Tek)? There would be no target. And just have a look at how Dooku himself descripes Sidious using that technique. He calls him a "black hole" in the force. Sounds familiar?



This is stupid. We know that the knowledge was passed down, given that Sidious does actively use the force drain technique. Furthermore: Bane had Revan's holocron. How could Revan not have had any knowledge about the technique? And I don't see any reason for Revan not passing it down (as he did give away stuff like the thought bomb), nor do I see why Bane would have been afraid of it (given that it doesn't cause any harm to it's user).



In case of that very technique this is exactly the case, as Traya mentions that it's learned through experiencing it.



DS is so full of shit that I moved him to my ignorelist. Sorry. I'm not here to feed that troll any longer. And the Exile is much more powerful? You base that on what exactly?

The Exile lost all of her memories (and powers) and recovers them through the game. Why would she be considerably more powerful than she was in her early Jedi days? Because you or DS say so? That doesn't work. That aside: Her powers in the game are spawning from her force bonds to others - Vrook mentions that as exceptional ability of the otherwise average Jedi.

And you really want to compare the Exile to Darth Tyranus aka Count Dooku? That seems to be a little bit laughable.



Excuse me? You really want to tell us that you need nothing but a lightsaber to block force lightning? Do you want to assume that those lightning arcs - for no apparent reason - are drawn towards the lightsaber? Then I wonder how Sidious managed to disarm Yoda with that ability.

Apparently you need the force to focus the lightning onto the blade - then you need enough physical power (either raw strength or force aided strength) to keep your lightsaber where it is. You want to tell me that Kreia would be able to levitate the lightsabers, focus the lightning on one (or all) of those sabers using the force and then keep said sabers where they are against the power of the lightning? I find that rather unlikely.



What "combined might" are you talking about? Do I have to point out the facts once more: Malak is a freaking Padawan with a maximum of 2 years of Dark Side studies. Kreia is a Jedi Librarian who just had the fortune of learning one pretty nice Dark Side technique.

Dooku, on the other side, is one of the most powerful beings ever appearing in the SW universe, an accomplished Jedi Master, a master duellist and a Sith Lord who studied the Dark Side extensively for a decade and here and there for 6 decades.

So where is the "might" that will force him down? Much less any "combined" might. They are just fighting the same opponent at the same time, which doesn't mean they would come up with any decent teamwork. In fact: If you consider their showings, we would have to assume that Malak attempts to cut Dooku down, while Kreia focusses on her defence, and levitates some lightsabers around in order to stop Dooku from entering melee combat. What exactly stops Dooku from force raping those two (or at least one of the duo) on the spot? Their never-demonstrated ability to defend themselves against attacks of persons on Dooku's level - when Kreia can't manage to do that against the Exile and even an SF powered force attack immune Malak got his ass handed to him by a single Revan? Doesn't sound very likely. And if you consider their usual m.o., Dookus just has to either outduell or force rape Malak before cutting through Kreias 3-levitating-lightsabers defense and kill her too. Not much of a problem, I suppose.


@Faunus


Look at the sources and find me one instance in which a character has defended himself against a force attack prior to the days of Darth Bane. Sorry to tell you: Sadow manages to hit Kressh with a telekinetically thrown stone. Kun just "resists" the Wall of Light attack, yet he is still thrown around by Odan's attempt to cut his connection to the force off. Arca Jeth gets owned by a single attack of King Ommin (the same for Nomi and her friends). And so on, and so forth. There is not a single instance in which one Jedi or Sith manages to defend themselves against a force manouver.

And this is quite logical if you think about it: There wasn't any conflict between force users for millenia. So why should they develop techniques that would enable them to defend themselves against force attacks anyway? Or do you have any other explanation for, just an example, Malak simply force stunning Revan and Bastilla, when the first was - possibly - already more powerful than him? Doesn't make sense.



What Kreia actually says is that there are techniques against which there is no defence, which actually implies that there are multiple techniques that they don't have any defence against. How many techniques have you seen in the PT era that people didn't even know any defense against? That aside: Even if you want to give them the regular defense of the PT era characters (which would imply that the Jedi didn't improve their force defense over 4,000 years with one millenia of constant battles against Sith forces): There is hardly a being in the PT able to counter force attacks of Dooku, no matter if it's force lightning or TK. In fact, Dooku levels everybody he attacks with the force - with Yoda being the only exception.

Do you really think that Malak or Kreia, even assuming they have the ability to defend themselves against force attacks, would be able to defend themselves against force attacks coming from Dooku? Especially considering that Dooku uses different attacks simultaneously? I don't think they would be able to do the job if Dooku really attempts to overwhelm one of them with the force.

Luke Fon Fabre
Actually, the Tales of the Jedi Companion confirms that the Jedi of the period were capable of shielding themselves with the Force as well as simply resisting attacks. Both are listed as basic Jedi abilities.

Also, may I ask where Dooku's shown to actually use the Force to overpower a prepared Jedi of note? In most cases he uses the Force in a sudden manner in the settings of a fast paced, close combat lightsaber battle (where it's likely that they get caught off guard and are unable to apply their defences to meet his attack) or, as was the case with Asajj, against non hostile Force Users at a moment's notice without any real warning or justification (why would you have your defences ready against an ally who doesn't appear to have any reason to attack you?).

In fact, when is Dooku shown doing anything truly of note with the Force?

Publius II
Originally posted by Borbarad
Sorry to tell you: Sadow manages to hit Kressh with a telekinetically thrown stone.Is it inconceivable that Kressh was simply caught unawares?

And this is a bad example, anyway. If Sadow can telekinetically move a brick, then Kressh, who toppled a rather large stone statue with a gesture, should be able to as well. Moving on...

And that couldn't possibly be indicative of a raised defense?

What exactly did Ommin do to Arca?

The Hundred Years War? The Exar Kun War? The very existence of the Sith?

He caught them by surprise. You realize that Master Farfalla managed to momentarily lock Bane in stasis, right?

The idea that opposing groups of Force-users would exist and clash in combat while employing an array of offensive techniques and not develop any sort of defense for them is absolutely absurd.

The fact that she specifically notes that there are "techniques" for which there is no defense would imply that it is unusual for a given technique to have no defense, which means that the majority of techniques can be defended against.

How many techniques have we even seen used in the PT? Off the top of my head, I can count variants of telekinesis, lightning, telepathy, and whatever it was Dooku did to Ventress.



Well, he is being double-teamed by two at least exceptional Force-users.

Of course, this is where unknown syndrome pops in; there is no way to truly quantify their combat capabilities relative to those of Dooku, so really, there's no point in arguing it.

Red Nemesis
Malak is "at least exceptional" now?

Darth Sexy
Ommin uses force lightning on Arca Jeth. Although I guess back then it was called "Dark side energy".

Publius II
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Malak is "at least exceptional" now? Well, exceptional for the era. Second most powerful in an organization of hundreds?

Borbarad
Originally posted by Publius II
Is it inconceivable that Kressh was simply caught unawares?


A rather powerful Sith Lord who is clearly capable of prediction is getting "caught unawares" by the opponent he just fights with an action like that. You suppose that Kressh is somehow inable to sense the force movement Sadow is applying to move the brick and toss it right against his head?



Apparently not, because that technique is equally "unblockable". And why would a defence stop the original purpose of an attack (strip one from the force) just to generate some secondary effect (knocking Kun backwards)?



He knocked him out with a blast of Dark Side energy. He did the same when Nomi and her friends came to rescue Arca later, with the only being resisting that effect was Ulic Qel-Droma who simply jumped right through the attack.



Urm. May I remind you that the Sith had almost forgotten the Jedi prior to Sadows invasion of the Republic. Otherwise Ragnos wouldn't need to lecture Kressh and Sadow on the topic, correct? One could conclude that the Jedi would have forgotten the Sith as well to a certain extend. And the Exar Kun war? Well...not much of a need to develop defences against Dark Side techniques there, also not much time, considering that Kun killed anybody he faced directly.

The very existance of the Sith? What Sith? Once again: The first Sith where Exiles and it's not even certain that the Jedi knew about them. Then they drove them to extinction in their very first conflict with them (Sadow's invasion and following events). The next time, a Sith was popping up, happened a thousand years later. And again the Jedi solved that conflict with the almost total extinction of the Sith. So why would they spent their time developing techniques that they - pretty much never - needed. And even if they had those techniques, why would they focus on them?



The keyword is "momentarily" as you can shake off force stasis - normally. Atton, Bastilla and Revan keep standing there for quite some time when one should expect that at least Revan would be able to shake it off - at least faster than Bastilla.




Once more, Faunus: What opposing groups of Force-users? The only constant war between Jedi and Sith happened in the 1000 years before the Ruusan reformation. Before that, every conflict of that kind, ended with the fast extinction of one of both sides - often in a single act of violence.
And the only defense mentioned in all sources dealing with the KotoR era is battle meditation used by Nomi Sunrider to stop the illusions of Aleema Keto. Anything else that happens in terms of force defense seems to be "resist an effect due to your own power" - nothing else.



The point is that there are multiple techniques against which there is no defense - in the time of KotoR. What techniques? Oh. I don't know. Because there doesn't seem to be a single technique that they use active defense against (with the exception noted above). So there is the possibility that they didn't have any defense against any more complex force technique (which would include the like of force lightning). Which means, in turn, that Dooku could simply force rape them - while it's entirely possible that the PT era knows a defense against the noted techniques.

Again: This is assuming that they did refine their force defense over the time span of 4,000 years. An idea that you seem to support yourself.



Yes. And every of that techniques was countered at a certain point in the PT era. Did you see somebody in the KotoR era blocking force lightning? Did you see them blocking even telekinesis?



Exceptional? By what standards?

Malak was the #2 out of the Jedi that rebelled against the Council when they went into the Mandalorian Wars. He still was a Padawan and he still just went Dark Side for 2 years. Yet all his showings are happening on the Star Forge which boosted his abilities. Despite of that, he still doesn't demonstrate anything special. In fact he utterly fails with his attempt to defeat his former master.

Traya is just one of the few Force Users being left in the entire Galaxy. Is she powerful? Who the hell knows? Her only demonstration of power is owning people with a technique that those people couldn't defend themselves against. That I can put a bullet through your head doesn't mean I would be able to defeat you in a game of Chess, does it?

So where are their "exceptional" showings? Where did they show anything that would allow us to place them even remotely close to one of the most powerful individuals the Jedi Order has produced in his 25,000 year history. A guy that force raped Jedi Masters and Sith Acolytes for fun. You may want to consider Dooku's showings in the Clone Wars series too - which are hilarious here and there.



Well...in that case, there is no reason to argue any fight at all, unless it has actually happened so that we can quantify the abilities of the opponents - but, of course, in this case we would already know the outcome of the fight, which would make the entire "debating" thing rather boring, right?

Publius II
I'll get back to the rest tomorrow, but this apparently requires clarification.Uh, no. The vast majority of KotOR-era character have been given either such minimal exposure or so few detailed "feats" that we have no way of accurately gauging their power relative to individuals who have their abilities fully fleshed out. Nihilus, who pulled a starship out of a gravity well, would probably come closest to being a character with "quantifiable" abilities.

If that was at all illegible, I apologize.

Borbarad
Urm. No. I apologize for apparently getting you entirely wrong there.

Publius II
Ich, gewinne Dummkopf. Sie sind schwach.

Borbarad

Publius II
STFU *****.

Red Nemesis
Wut? Faunus's post looks like he traded positions (now he's arguing against the team's basic competence) and Nai's translation butchers English syntax. The autotranslator clearly lost something, eh?

(English statements in German seem curiously ominous- far more than in the romance languages.)

Publius II
I thought I said "you" are weak.

Red Nemesis
I wouldn't know. Tell it to the website

Publius II
I used a different one...

Borbarad
Originally posted by Publius II
I thought I said "you" are weak.

Essentially, you did. But well. That's why German is a language for people who are completely badass.

"Sie" can refer to a group of people ("they"wink, a single female person ("she"wink but it's also the formal way to adress a single person ("you" - where you would address a relative or friend with the word "Du"wink. It depends entirely on the situation and the form of the verb included in the sentence. For example:

Sie lacht. ("She laughs."wink
Sie lachen. ("They laugh."wink

And what I wrote down would translate into:
"You should better not start with that kind of jokes. I'm better with that than you will probably ever be. May the force be with you."

@Red Nemesis:
German is one of the more complex languages (as far as grammar is concerned). A nice example would be the article "the". In English, you have just "the". In German you have "der" (male), "die" (female), "das" (objects) - which things being assorted to the male, female and object sheme in an entirely random manner (e.g.: the coat = der Mantel; so that object is male...). And then the article is even further changed through various grammatical causes ("des", "dem", "den"...).

In fact, that language is so complex that even 90 % of all native speakers aren't able to use the subjunctive correctly and try to circumvent it. Compared to that, English is rather easy to learn - and that's also the reason for the fact that you can't get any accurate translations out of the Internet. wink

Lord Lucien
I've heard from a couple of native French that learning German was relatively difficult, and then they learned English. Said it was hell compared to German.

kotorfan

kotorfan

Publius II
Verbal Mandarin is so much easier than any language I've ever tried to learn before. The complete lack of complex grammar is perfect.

Writing is a different story entirely.

kotorfan
yeah I'm cantonese but I still have to learn mandarin. lol

Mandarin only has 4 tones and imo is alot easier than other dialects.
and there is kinda a lack of grammar and tenses. there are not past, imperfect, future tenses. It would instead be

yesterday I have done this.
I am doing this
I will be doing this tomorrow.

or u could say the time first like

我六點半要買票

I need to buy a ticket at six.

but its literally translated as I six o clock want buy ticket.

so i guess there is alittle grammar, just that I somehow don't pay any attention to it whatsoever.

EDIT: sry its supposed to be six thirty not six

crap i didn't realize I posted two times the same thing. lol

I meant the same thing two times. thinking in chinese is getting to me..

Borbarad
Originally posted by Publius II
I'll get back to the rest tomorrow

The audience is waiting.

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>