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Everyone in Marvel and DC universes EXCEPT TOAA and Presence.

Well, Beyonder's only challenges would be from Thanso/HOTU...if he has it....or the GEB from DC.

beyonder wipes them all out

Black Adam solos

Wheres the Molecule Man now? Seriously, I have lost touch and forgotten what happened to him. (I suppose I could look it up, but i'm lazy)

Originally posted by I'm Bran
Black Adam solos

wtf is black adam gonna do besides get slaughterd?

Beyonder kill them all accidentally when he think about the fight too much..

Originally posted by Nestical
wtf is black adam gonna do besides get slaughterd?

He beat Lord Marvel. ::shrugs::

Superman one-shots him.

Kang and maybe Prime.

Originally posted by Bentley
Kang and maybe Prime.

Are you being serious? I'm not arguing, I would just like to know how.

Speed blitz.

Originally posted by tkitna
Are you being serious? I'm not arguing, I would just like to know how.

Prime would likely be powered by the energies from Beyond, and Kang already escaped the Beyonder once by using his time-reviving tech, he is well beyond the scope of his omniscience.

Originally posted by Bentley
Kang and maybe Prime.

Superman with Cosmic Armor, Great Evil Beast should be enough

Cosmic Armor Supes gets one-shotted.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Cosmic Armor Supes gets one-shotted.
Nope! he adopt instantly to any threat. Even the biggest one

What's he adopting?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Nope! he adopt instantly to any threat. Even the biggest one

PR Beyonder would destroy him before he had the chance to adapt.

Originally posted by Mindset
What's he adopting?
Beyonders power duhhh

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
PR Beyonder would destroy him before he had the chance to adapt.
to you understand the word instantly?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Beyonders power duhhh He will adapt the power to adopt?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
to you understand the word instantly?

Do you understand that concepts like that don't matter to supreme beings?

Originally posted by Mindset
He will adapt the power to adapt?
Not only that but he will adapt again and again.

FYI; Fixed

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Do you understand that concepts like that don't matter to supreme beings?
Actually it does! What is your proof

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
Everyone in Marvel and DC universes EXCEPT TOAA and Presence. His on panel feats dont' amount to much when you think of actual fights. He has like none. Molecule man. Who has like, None. LUlz.

Originally posted by fangirl101
His on panel feats dont' amount to much when you think of actual fights. He has like none. Molecule man. Who has like, None. LUlz.

Molecule Man hit Beyonder with a blast powerful enough to waste thousands of dimensions....

Molecule Man fought the Beyonder and they warped the multiverse, giving 2D beings a third dimension etc.

Moelcule Man casually rebuilt an entire galaxy.

Molecule Man has loads of feats.

Also, Pre Retcon Beyonder beat down all the Celestials in H2H, thats pretty impressive.

And killed Death etcc

Originally posted by fangirl101
His on panel feats dont' amount to much when you think of actual fights. He has like none. Molecule man. Who has like, None. LUlz. You didn't read Secret Wars 2.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Molecule Man hit Beyonder with a blast powerful enough to waste thousands of dimensions....

Molecule Man fought the Beyonder and they warped the multiverse, giving 2D beings a third dimension etc.

Moelcule Man casually rebuilt an entire galaxy.

Molecule Man has loads of feats.

Also, Pre Retcon Beyonder beat down all the Celestials in H2H, thats pretty impressive.

And killed Death etcc
Nothing compared to GEB

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Nothing compared to GEB

I wasn't argueing that, just Fg stated Beyonder and MM had no good feats..

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
I wasn't argueing that, just Fg stated Beyonder and MM had no good feats..
Well they have little to actually say that they are supreme beings.

Originally posted by fangirl101
His on panel feats dont' amount to much when you think of actual fights. He has like none. Molecule man. Who has like, None. LUlz.

thanks for adding nothing to the thread.geb isnt doing sh@t to disco stu

Originally posted by Mindset
What's he adopting? an ass whipping.

psycho gundam
My blood.....it rages....

Gender: Male
Location: Celestial Being HQ

Restricted

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Actually it does! What is your proof

He'd be destroyed before he can adapt. What about that is hard to understand?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Well they have little to actually say that they are supreme beings. Other than writer statements and on-panel statements?

Superman Cosmic Armoured is fvcking overrated as hell.

You can't adapt to something that destroys you the very moment you are hit by it.

PR Beyonder didn't have many fights, because no one could really fight him.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Other than writer statements and on-panel statements?

Superman Cosmic Armoured is fvcking overrated as hell.

You can't adapt to something that destroys you the very moment you are hit by it.

PR Beyonder didn't have many fights, because no one could really fight him.
The fact that it states that Superman's Armor is created to defeat ANY THREAT by adapting to any situation instantly. Why is it so hard to understand??

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He'd be destroyed before he can adapt. What about that is hard to understand?
Again did you read Superman Beyond?

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Other than writer statements and on-panel statements?

Superman Cosmic Armoured is fvcking overrated as hell.

You can't adapt to something that destroys you the very moment you are hit by it.

PR Beyonder didn't have many fights, because no one could really fight him.

Oh come on. Couldn't Pre crisis supes invent an "anti Beyonder power"

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Again did you read Superman Beyond?

I did, did you?

CA Supes ain't beating a guy who shitstomped a planet of Celestials with his bare hands.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
CA Supes ain't beating a guy who shitstomped a planet of Celestials with his bare hands. There were like eight Celestials, iirc.

Yea, after he got done beating a planet full of them! awesome

ha-son

Originally posted by Galan007
There were like eight Celestials, iirc. Well to be fair, wasn't that planet fvcking puny?

That planet was full of Celestials since they took up most of its space. 131

Michael and Lucifer togther...and GEB...all you need!!!

beyonder wipe out everything and everyone..then he created it all back just for fun..

Cosmic Armor Superman should be more then enough to counter this threat

But he's not.

Originally posted by Mindset
But he's not.

how do you know ?

Originally posted by Mekrob
Black Adam solos
agreed

Originally posted by skygunner41
how do you know ?

Because he's the Shadow.

Originally posted by skygunner41
how do you know ? Because I just said so, didn't you see my post?

GEB, MJJ, Mr. Mxy, Franklin Richards, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange, LT, Spectre,
Anti-Monitor, Molecule Man, The Ultimator, HOM Wonda

These guys alone could beat Pre Retcon Beyonder.

It seems as everyone likes to go by feats.

Mr. Mxy feats are just as good as the Beyonder's IMO.
When you can jump out of the comic book and talk to the writers.
IMO, that probably means you are capable of doing anything you want.

I love it how everyone thinks that the Beyonder is like GOD or something like that, BUT in looking at things he is NOT GOD.

He may be outside of the "Mainstream" universe, but these guys I mention abover working together would not lose to Beyonder.

It wouldn't be a one shot and these guys are gone.
If that was the case, then the Molecule Man would have been one shotted himself and it would have been over with.

The MM didn't beat the Pre Retcon Beyonder, but if I recall correctly, he handled his own for awhile.

I am sorry Beyonder fanboys and fangirls, but I will NEVER agree that the Beyonder is God himself. Since that is true to me, than it is possible to get rid of him just like everyone else.

Originally posted by SouthSpawn

It wouldn't be a one shot and these guys are gone.
If that was the case, then the Molecule Man would have been one shotted himself and it would have been over with.

The MM didn't beat the Pre Retcon Beyonder, but if I recall correctly, he handled his own for awhile.
That's all you needed to say.


Anyway, Elaine Belloc FTW

Originally posted by SouthSpawn


I am sorry Beyonder fanboys and fangirls, but I will NEVER agree that the Beyonder is God himself. Since that is true to me, than it is possible to get rid of him just like everyone else.

You are absolutely right. We are still trying to figure out which of these is God...Cosmic armor Superman, Superman Prime, or Pre Crisis Superman.

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
You are absolutely right. We are still trying to figure out which of these is God...Cosmic armor Superman, Superman Prime, or Pre Crisis Superman.

Superman isn't God either.

Unless they reveal that it was actually The Presence posing as Superman.

Which is very much possible, and wouldn't be too bad of a idea.

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
Superman isn't God either.

Unless they reveal that it was actually The Presence posing as Superman.

Which is very much possible, and wouldn't be too bad of a idea.

And you call the Beyonder fans fanboys?

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
And you call the Beyonder fans fanboys?

LOL, Dude, I actually HATE Superman with a passion.
Ask SpawnWest, he would know, he is my brother.

We argue all the time about Superman.

They reason why I said it wouldn't be too bad of a idea.
Is because I will and always will think that Superman is Overrated.

So revealing that it was the presence controlling him or something like that would at least take away some of the overrateness that me and others like me think.

Originally posted by Mindset
What's he adopting?

The BIGGEST threat.

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
GEB, MJJ, Mr. Mxy, Franklin Richards, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange, LT, Spectre,
Anti-Monitor, Molecule Man, The Ultimator, HOM Wonda

These guys alone could beat Pre Retcon Beyonder.

It seems as everyone likes to go by feats.

Mr. Mxy feats are just as good as the Beyonder's IMO.
When you can jump out of the comic book and talk to the writers.
IMO, that probably means you are capable of doing anything you want.

I love it how everyone thinks that the Beyonder is like GOD or something like that, BUT in looking at things he is NOT GOD.

He may be outside of the "Mainstream" universe, but these guys I mention abover working together would not lose to Beyonder.

It wouldn't be a one shot and these guys are gone.
If that was the case, then the Molecule Man would have been one shotted himself and it would have been over with.

The MM didn't beat the Pre Retcon Beyonder, but if I recall correctly, he handled his own for awhile.

I am sorry Beyonder fanboys and fangirls, but I will NEVER agree that the Beyonder is God himself. Since that is true to me, than it is possible to get rid of him just like everyone else.

HOM Wanda is the most overated chareter in comics. she at best has the power of a small cosmic cube and only then in limited times of extreme stress. but per ret Beyonder would destroy everyone on the list in a heartbeat.

Originally posted by complexbrother
HOM Wanda is the most overated chareter in comics. she at best has the power of a small cosmic cube and only then in limited times of extreme stress. but per ret Beyonder would destroy everyone on the list in a heartbeat.

I disagree, but we all have our opinions.

It's comic books.

There is no real way to find out anyways

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
GEB, MJJ, Mr. Mxy, Franklin Richards, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange, LT, Spectre,
Anti-Monitor, Molecule Man, The Ultimator, HOM Wonda

These guys alone could beat Pre Retcon Beyonder.

It seems as everyone likes to go by feats.

Mr. Mxy feats are just as good as the Beyonder's IMO.
When you can jump out of the comic book and talk to the writers.
IMO, that probably means you are capable of doing anything you want.

I love it how everyone thinks that the Beyonder is like GOD or something like that, BUT in looking at things he is NOT GOD.

He may be outside of the "Mainstream" universe, but these guys I mention abover working together would not lose to Beyonder.

It wouldn't be a one shot and these guys are gone.
If that was the case, then the Molecule Man would have been one shotted himself and it would have been over with.

The MM didn't beat the Pre Retcon Beyonder, but if I recall correctly, he handled his own for awhile.

I am sorry Beyonder fanboys and fangirls, but I will NEVER agree that the Beyonder is God himself. Since that is true to me, than it is possible to get rid of him just like everyone else. I agree with much of this post. The Pre Retconned beyonder is a wet dream to millions of fanboys. He's not real. He has less impressive feats than Mxy or The LT and he was a noob. No way a noob who dresses Like Micheal Jackson is god. He didn't even know what the Marvel Multiverse was. How can he be God and he's ignorant? WTF.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I agree with much of this post. The Pre Retconned beyonder is a wet dream to millions of fanboys. He's not real. He has less impressive feats than Mxy or The LT and he was a noob. No way a noob who dresses Like Micheal Jackson is god. He didn't even know what the Marvel Multiverse was. How can he be God and he's ignorant? WTF.

You know, your post shows just how "antifanboy(or girl)" someone can be about a character but who am I to judge, I feel the same way about the infinite versions of Superman.

You say "he isn't real", but please tell me what comic book character is.

Feats? It's pretty hard to put ANYONE up against a character of this level.
As Pre Retcon Beyonder was intended by the writers the only one/ones who could possibly beat him would be TOAA or Prescence though I sure wouldn't put it past DC to create some version of Superman that could though that hasn't happened....yet.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I agree with much of this post. The Pre Retconned beyonder is a wet dream to millions of fanboys. He's not real. He has less impressive feats than Mxy or The LT and he was a noob. No way a noob who dresses Like Micheal Jackson is god. He didn't even know what the Marvel Multiverse was. How can he be God and he's ignorant? WTF. This post is full of nothing but just a wasted attempt to demean preretcon beyonder which for the purposes of this thread he exists.

Everyone Doom and Gloom? Pre-retconned, Dead, Depowered etc?

Originally posted by Utrigita
Everyone Doom and Gloom? Pre-retconned, Dead, Depowered etc?

Read Secret Wars I and II. Yes, everyone, except TOAA or Prescence.

Now maybe if Wolverine started dressing like Michael Jackson....

Marvel and DC for the win then.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Marvel and DC for the win then.


Based on what?

You are including GEB, Pre Recton Brothers, Spectre in all his different incarnations (two of them arguably equal to God) Thanos With Heart of the Universe, Michael and Lucifer, Ultimator, COIE Anti Monitor, Mandrakk, etc.

Originally posted by SouthSpawn

GEB, MJJ, Mr. Mxy, Franklin Richards, Dr. Fate, Dr. Strange, LT, Spectre,
Anti-Monitor, Molecule Man, The Ultimator, HOM Wonda

These guys alone could beat Pre Retcon Beyonder.
... I mean ... Fate/Strange? dur
Originally posted by SouthSpawn

It seems as everyone likes to go by feats.

Mr. Mxy feats are just as good as the Beyonder's IMO.
When you can jump out of the comic book and talk to the writers.
IMO, that probably means you are capable of doing anything you want.
In that case, She-Hulk can stalemate Mxy and also stomp Beyonder.
Originally posted by SouthSpawn

I love it how everyone thinks that the Beyonder is like GOD or something like that, BUT in looking at things he is NOT GOD.
Everyone doesn't think that,
and really, who cares who thinks that,
the fact is,
it's what Jim Shooter (Writer of SSI & II) literally stated in an interview,
and on panel.
Originally posted by SouthSpawn

He may be outside of the "Mainstream" universe, but these guys I mention abover working together would not lose to Beyonder.
HAHAHA!

The LT was trembling in fear of the Beyonder,
and since no one on your list is a supreme being, (perhaps the GEB)
they all get stomped.
Originally posted by SouthSpawn

It wouldn't be a one shot and these guys are gone.
If that was the case, then the Molecule Man would have been one shotted himself and it would have been over with.
Pre-MM > the LT

Don't know if you knew that,
besides this, MM lasted like 2 panels before nearly getting annihilated,
but beyond even this,
Beyonder never really wanted to kill Owen or marvel,
this is why he faked his death as a baby at the end,
in order to go in peace back into the Beyond Realm.
Originally posted by SouthSpawn

The MM didn't beat the Pre Retcon Beyonder, but if I recall correctly, he handled his own for awhile.
For two panels.

Which is a monsttrous feat considreing he was battling a supreme being.
Originally posted by SouthSpawn

I am sorry Beyonder fanboys and fangirls, but I will NEVER agree that the Beyonder is God himself. Since that is true to me, than it is possible to get rid of him just like everyone else.
Well I don't mind being labelled a "Beyonder fanboy"
heck, haters will always post some bull shit like that, you're not the first.

But I would mind getting criticism from ignorance,
so please, read the Secret Wars saga before commenting on it.

Originally posted by complexbrother

HOM Wanda is the most overated chareter in comics.
she at best has the power of a small cosmic cube
and only then in limited times of extreme stress.
You're very wrong brother.

Wanda tore the entire Omniverse to pieces via her chaos wave,
then she re-built the entire Omniverse via a spoken thought.
Originally posted by complexbrother

but per ret Beyonder would destroy everyone on the list in a

heartbeat.


Originally posted by fangirl101
The Pre Retconned beyonder is a wet dream to millions of fanboys. He's not real. He has less impressive feats than Mxy or The LT and he was a noob. No way a noob who dresses Like Micheal Jackson is god. He didn't even know what the Marvel Multiverse was. How can he be God and he's ignorant? WTF.
durlaugh

You never cease to make us laugh.

Originally posted by Utrigita

You are including GEB, Pre Recton Brothers, Spectre in all his different incarnations (two of them arguably equal to God) Thanos With Heart of the Universe, Michael and Lucifer, Ultimator, COIE Anti Monitor, Mandrakk, etc.
No one but the supreme being of a company has any chance against Beyonder.

And Spectre was never equal to God,
he was given insight into what it was like to be God,
but that's inconsequential
since he couldn't even handled the momentary experience.

Originally posted by Mr Master
... I mean ... Fate/Strange? dur

In that case, She-Hulk can stalemate Mxy and also stomp Beyonder.

Everyone doesn't think that,
and really, who cares who thinks that,
the fact is,
it's what Jim Shooter (Writer of SSI & II) literally stated in an interview,
and on panel.

HAHAHA!

The LT was trembling in fear of the Beyonder,
and since no one on your list is a supreme being, (perhaps the GEB)
they all get stomped.

Pre-MM > the LT

Don't know if you knew that,
besides this, MM lasted like 2 panels before nearly getting annihilated,
but beyond even this,
Beyonder never really wanted to kill Owen or marvel,
this is why he faked his death as a baby at the end,
in order to go in peace back into the Beyond Realm.

For two panels.

Which is a monsttrous feat considreing he was battling a supreme being.

Well I don't mind being labelled a "Beyonder fanboy"
heck, haters will always post some bull shit like that, you're not the first.

But I would mind getting criticism from ignorance,
so please, read the Secret Wars saga before commenting on it.

I don't care what you say, I really don't.

The Beyonder isn't going to beat everyone.

Like someone else said, this would include GEB, Pre Recton Brothers, Spectre in all his different incarnations (two of them arguably equal to God) Thanos With Heart of the Universe, Michael and Lucifer, Ultimator, COIE Anti Monitor, Mandrakk, etc

It's simple, HE AIN'T WINNING AGAINST EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
That's all you needed to say.


Anyway, Elaine Belloc FTW

Elaine basically is The Presence now, who is excluded from this thread.

I do think DC/Marvel wins, though. HOM Wanda, MJJ, Mxy, GEB, LT, etc.

I'm not counting external powerups like Thanos w/ HOTU 'cause that'd be cheap. But yeah...

Originally posted by Mr Master
No one but the supreme being of a company has any chance against Beyonder.

And Spectre was never equal to God,
he was given insight into what it was like to be God,
but that's inconsequential
since he couldn't even handled the momentary experience.

Pre Retcon MM did a good job of keeping Pre Retcon Beyonder at bay when they battled. He is included.

I said arguably equal on two occasions, one would be against COIE Anti Monitor, the other would be Spectre that battled GEB, and again Imo Dc and Marvel has when taking into account all of there long history with everyone included enough Fire Power to take down Pre Recton Beyonder.

Marvel/DC win this..this is spite

Originally posted by Mr Master
You're very wrong brother.

Wanda tore the entire Omniverse to pieces via her chaos wave,
then she re-built the entire Omniverse via a spoken thought.

.

She did not tear the omniverse or even the universe she just (like this is a small feat) affected the earth.

show my one piece of truth on panel where she did something as grand as everyone claims, and that's not hyperbole. (like saying "his punches are so hard he could split heaven in half"

Originally posted by complexbrother
She did not tear the omniverse or even the universe she just (like this is a small feat) affected the earth.

show my one piece of truth on panel where she did something as grand as everyone claims, and that's not hyperbole. (like saying "his punches are so hard he could split heaven in half"

You didn't read House of M did you?

Originally posted by starlock
Marvel/DC win this..this is spite

it is spite,beyonder is tearing them all a new ass

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
You didn't read House of M did you?

yes I did, every issue and if I knew how to scan and post pages, I could show you that her power was restricted to earth.

by all means.

Originally posted by Utrigita

Pre Retcon MM did a good job of keeping Pre Retcon Beyonder at bay when they battled. He is included.
Yea, he held his own for two panels,
then got stomped.

Meh, we later learned Beyonder wasn't even trying to kill him or the Multiverse,
he just wanted to leave & return to the Beyond Realm,
so he allowed himself to be supposedly killed as a baby,
but we know he was never killed.

Why he chose this type of exit is a Shooter plot device imo.
Originally posted by Utrigita

I said arguably equal on two occasions, one would be against COIE Anti Monitor, the other would be Spectre that battled GEB
Anti-Monitor was taking out the DC Multiverse which was everything DC in 85'
Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the Marvel Multiverse,
which was everything Marvel in 85'

Imo, based on this, Beyonder >>> AM

As for Spectre,
when he was shown what it was like to be DC's God,
he couldn't handle it and screamed in pain and did nothing with the power.
In the GEB incident, he did nothing special to my recollection.
Originally posted by Utrigita

and again Imo Dc and Marvel has when taking into account all of there long history with everyone included enough Fire Power to take down Pre Recton Beyonder.
All honest opinions are respected by me.

Concerning Marvel,
only the supreme being (THOTI status) can hope to stalemate Beyonder,
and only TOAA can crush him, but placing anyone against TOAA is spite,
since TOAA only needs to stroke his pencil across paper to stomp.

Concerning DC,
the same imo, although, I could care less since that's another company.

Beyonder stomps. If he ever brought his full power to bear on the Marvel and DC Universe, well, we'd be all reading Image right now.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, he held his own for two panels,
then got stomped.

Meh, we later learned Beyonder wasn't even trying to kill him or the Multiverse,
he just wanted to leave & return to the Beyond Realm,
so he allowed himself to be supposedly killed as a baby,
but we know he was never killed.

Why he chose this type of exit is a Shooter plot device imo.

He still did rather well concerning that apparently no others could even hope to get near the beyonder in terms of power.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Anti-Monitor was taking out the DC Multiverse which was everything DC in 85'
Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the Marvel Multiverse,
which was everything Marvel in 85'

Imo, based on this, Beyonder >>> AM

Plus he had the Anti Matter Universe which was equally as large as the DC multiverse at that time, and you cannot imo take what was the case in one company and begin to apply it to another to another The Anti Monitor devoured almost every single universe out of a infinite amount of universes how large was this supposed infinite amount? None knows perhaps it was the size of the Marvel Multiverse perhaps it was the size of the Beyond Dimension, perhaps it was bigger then both, to my knowlegde we have no information that support ore disregard either.

Originally posted by Mr Master
As for Spectre,
when he was shown what it was like to be DC's God,
he couldn't handle it and screamed in pain and did nothing with the power.
In the GEB incident, he did nothing special to my recollection.

It was shown on panel that he couldn't handle the direct merging, I however wasn't refering to that, but two other incidents were arguably Spectre would be equal to the presence, GEB mostly because Spectre managed to stalemate GEB thumb. In the other Incident with Anti Monitor he supposedly had backing from the Presence along with the amp of multiply Magicians amping his powerlevels even further.

Originally posted by Mr Master
All honest opinions are respected by me.

Concerning Marvel,
only the supreme being (THOTI status) can hope to stalemate Beyonder,
and only TOAA can crush him, but placing anyone against TOAA is spite,
since TOAA only needs to stroke his pencil across paper to stomp.

Concerning DC,
the same imo, although, I could care less since that's another company.

And Thanos would from my point of view be included, so would the GEB which is from what I know a supreme being. We Disagree on what the Brothers are, but I think that they too would be capable of handling beyonder. Then there is Mxy that jumps around from all levels from clown to Near Supreme Being and the Ultimator etc.

Originally posted by Utrigita

He still did rather well
concerning that apparently
no others could even hope to get near the beyonder in terms of power.
Absolutely, I've said it before, it's an incredible feat,
but I was just being precise lest we mislead others unintentionally.
Originally posted by Utrigita

Plus he had the Anti Matter Universe which was equally as large as the DC multiverse at that time, and you cannot imo take what was the case in one company and begin to apply it to another to another
We all or most agree that all companies are equally large,
it just so happens to be that Beyonder
was created to be ridiculously larger than the Marvel totality.

That's unfortunate that there's no direct statements of their Universal scope,
but Marvel did get technical, and it is known, when you compare the two,
Beyonder was an ocean, Marvel was a drop of water.
Originally posted by Utrigita

The Anti Monitor devoured almost every single universe out of a infinite amount of universes how large was this supposed infinite amount? None knows perhaps it was the size of the Marvel Multiverse perhaps it was the size of the Beyond Dimension, perhaps it was bigger then both, to my knowlegde we have no information that support ore disregard either.
So if there's no direct gauge then we have to apply "Occam's razor" on this point,
and go for what's most probable,
and that's that the Marvel totality & DC totality is the same size.
Originally posted by Utrigita

It was shown on panel that he couldn't handle the direct merging,
I however wasn't refering to that,
but two other incidents were arguably Spectre would be equal to the presence
Spectre was never equal to the Presence,
because no one in DC could ever be equal to the Presence.
Originally posted by Utrigita

GEB mostly because Spectre managed to stalemate GEB thumb.

Originally posted by Utrigita

In the other Incident with Anti Monitor he supposedly had backing from the Presence along with the amp of multiply Magicians amping his powerlevels even further.
Some backing ... you gotta admit, that makes no sense,
not what you said, but the thought.
Originally posted by Utrigita

And Thanos would from my point of view be included, so would the GEB which is from what I know a supreme being. We Disagree on what the Brothers are, but I think that they too would be capable of handling beyonder. Then there is Mxy that jumps around from all levels from clown to Near Supreme Being and the Ultimator etc.
That's like the fifth supreme being in that one company.

That aside, let me ask you something:

Who was the supreme being of the Marvelverse in 1985?

Originally posted by Mr Master
We all or most agree that all companies are equally large,
it just so happens to be that Beyonder
was created to be ridiculously larger than the Marvel totality.

That's unfortunate that there's no direct statements of their Universal scope,
but Marvel did get technical, and it is known, when you compare the two,
Beyonder was an ocean, Marvel was a drop of water.

So if there's no direct gauge then we have to apply "Occam's razor" on this point,
and go for what's most probable,
and that's that the Marvel totality & DC totality is the same size.

I would just like to add to this that regardless of whether the '85-'86 DCU was as large as '84-'85 MU is irrelevant. Why? Because AM didn't absorb/destroy an infinite number of universes. Early in COIE, Pariah mentions he's seen the destruction of over 300 universes at the hands of the Anti-Matter wave. Much later, when there are only the three universes left (plus the two in that pocket realm), Barry Allen mentions that AM has destroyed a thousand universes. And IIRC, in the same issue, while AM is still in his universe getting set to absorb the power of the Anti-Matter universe, he says he's destroyed 'a thousand and more' universes. Marv Wolfman, the writer of COIE, lists the official count at 3,000 universes in the reprinted HC edition of COIE in....1999, I think. Which yeah, is absolutely impressive. But clearly, there is a number given and that can be measured.

Originally posted by Enyalus

I would just like to add to this that regardless of whether the '85-'86 DCU was as large as '84-'85 MU is irrelevant. Why? Because AM didn't absorb/destroy an infinite number of universes. Early in COIE, Pariah mentions he's seen the destruction of over 300 universes at the hands of the Anti-Matter wave. Much later, when there are only the three universes left (plus the two in that pocket realm), Barry Allen mentions that AM has destroyed a thousand universes. And IIRC, in the same issue, while AM is still in his universe getting set to absorb the power of the Anti-Matter universe, he says he's destroyed 'a thousand and more' universes. Marv Wolfman, the writer of COIE, lists the official count at 3,000 universes in the reprinted HC edition of COIE in....1999, I think. Which yeah, is absolutely impressive. But clearly, there is a number given and that can be measured.
Excellent find,
that puts to rest the mis-information that's been dancing around here for a while.

Originally posted by complexbrother

She did not tear the omniverse or even the universe

she just (like this is a small feat) affected the earth.


==============================================

The Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp (the Chaos Wave)

==============================================


Meggan (attuned to the Timestream) saw Wanda's Wave of power coming:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5373/w1tu6.th.jpg

"It is the End ... of All that is ... of All that will ever be"


..................................................................................................


The Wave passes through:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4232/w2fn0.th.jpg

"I was hoping, praying with all my heart ... that is was just a bad dream"

..................................................................................................

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6573/w3pm3.th.jpg

"In the fullest sense of the word, we live totally ordered lives.
Time & Space, our every perception of Reality,
is defined, governed, by what we call natural laws.
They provide the foundation & structure of our very existence.

Now, imagine them totally stripped away.

No more boundaries,
what quantum physicists like to call Branes, between Dimensions"


http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9250/w4qb8.th.jpg

"No coherence to Causality.
Only Primal Chaos,
beyond the comprehension of any sentience
no matter how grandiose its opinion of itself

And this is just the beginning"

..................................................................................................


Roma's Starlight Citadel (an Omniversal nexus) crashes also,
and since it is an access point to All Realities:

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/7106/r2ef3.th.jpg

"from this venue,
the Guardian of Reality can view events on EVERY PLANE of the OMNIVERSE"

..................................................................................................

..................................................................................................


We witness Wanda's power crashing All Realities in the Omniverse into one:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6324/w5we4.th.jpg

"At the Center point of Creation is the Starlight Citadel of Brian's ultimate boss,
Roma, the Celestial Guardian.
Her power is all that her title implies and more.
Doesn't matter ... doesn't save her.

..................................................................................................


Finally all the UniverseS accessible through the Starlight Citadel are warped together:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9060/w6aw0.th.jpg

"Her great Hall would fit entire Planets, with room to spare.
But when her Citadel falls,
that impossible vast space is suddenly crowded worse than rush hour ...
with an inconceivable variety and number of species,
as ALL the Dimensions there are suddenly crash together into one."
Nothing makes sense anymore, especially not who's supposed to be dead. (MJJ)


==============================================






As we can SEE!!!

The Chaos Wave resurrected Mad Jim Jaspers!

..................................................................................................

The Chaos Wave is literally Wanda's power:

..................................................................................................


PROOF!!! (or rather official Marvel Handbook confirmation)



In THREE separate Bios



1.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/119/mjjrw8.th.jpg

"During the Scarlet Witch's 'House of M' Reality Warp,
Jaspers Reformed alive merged with the Fury"



2.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8717/w10rk2.th.jpg

"Mad Jim Jaspers has also returned,
brought back to life by the Scarlet Witch's recent Reality Warp"




3. Wanda even gave Layla the power to "Perceive Divergent Realities" with her Chaos Wave:

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/5967/w10ej7.th.jpg

"Layla showed Cage glimpses of his life prior to the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp"

========================================

Wanda warped the Omniverse!


............................................................................


The ENITRE Marvel Universe was Wanda's playground:

According to Marvel.com!


House of M

http://www.marvel.com/universe/House_of_M

"Marvel Universe was transformed into the House of M" (Earth-58163)


The Marvel freakin Universe baby ... Wanda warped it ALL!!!

.................................................................................................


ON PANEL Verification:

.................................................................................................


http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3397/newexcalibur08page20ra5.th.jpg

With the line "No More mutants",

Wanda managed to shift Reality "causing cracks across ALL Realities."

Allowing the Shadow King to slip back into the 616 universe.


............................................................................


Balasco says,

"Two Siblings" (Wanda & Pietro)

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/2091/newxmenkryptoniawezz037vi5.th.jpg

"Force ALL of Reality to CHANGE"


............................................................................


Carol (Ms Marvel) says,

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8204/wandainmsmlq7.th.jpg

"She changed the World once huh?"

"Yes, ... but She Altered ALL of Reality"


NOT just the World, but ALL of Reality"


............................................................................


Again, more Bio confirmation:


............................................................................


Ms Marvel's mini-2008 Spring bio, (on panel) states,

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/7143/wandawarpedallrealityld5.th.jpg

"When an insane Scarlet Witch warped All Reality"


............................................................................


Indeed:


http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/2121/68053692tt1.th.jpg

"Not long ago, the Omniverse was swept
by a Temporal Reality Wave of unimaginable power,
that literally tore the Continuum to bits and Re-arranged it"


............................................................................


Indeed again!


http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/4163/cwzn9.th.jpg

Nightcrawler tells Cyclops,

"Rachel mentioned something from her dream
about a powerful 'Chaos Wave'
Scott, what's going on Just what are we dealing with here? ... "


Scott responds,

"Good Lord, Wanda, what else have YOU done to us?"



========================================


So to this day, still right now,

Wanda's feat is recognized as affecting All of Marvel's Reality. (everything)


.................................................................................................


*****

HOM Wanda tore the Omniverse to pieces, she morphed everything into one,
only 616 was left, which was itself, totality warped into her Mutant paradise.

She then with a thought rebooted everything (omniverse) to normal,
with the exception of erasing the mutant gene from 90% of all Mutants,
seemingly across all Timelines.

That's one of the epic feats in Marvel, there are others

swank

Originally posted by Mr Master

Anti-Monitor was taking out the DC Multiverse which was everything DC in 85'
Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the Marvel Multiverse,
which was everything Marvel in 85'

Imo, based on this, Beyonder >>> AM



I think you have just found the right way how we can end all disagreements between the DC and Marvel cosmic fractions .

For this to be possible we have to treat the companies as equals.
We have to take the cosmic beings by the time they appeared in and what influence they had in this particular period. Like the Pre-Rec Beyonder. Who was the most powerful being in his time.

Though, no offense, but your analogy is wrong in one important point.
If you say DC Multiverse 85 is like the Marvel Mutliverse 85 and Beyonder is much more then the 85 Marvel Multiverse, which is true, you also state that the Beyonder is much more then the DC Multiverse, which is wrong.

To be fair, and to treat both companies as equals one has to accept that the
85 Marvel Multiverse (the drop of water) and the Beyonder Realm (Ocean) = all that is in Marvel.
85 DC Multiverse = all that is in DC.
it's as simple as that.
From this we can now see that AM in COIE who destroyed almost everything in the DC Multiverse (the number doesn't really matter) except 5, was the equal of the Pre Rec Beyonder. The Antimatter Universe was the Ocean and the Remaining DC Multiverse was the water drop.

So Pre-Rec Beyonder = COIE AM = Mxy in World Funnest = Thanos THOTU = CA superman (in superman Beyond(er) = Parallax

It's just important to stick to those times, because with quotes from different comics some statements will be just misleading and favor ones interpretation and not the truth

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

I think you have just found the right way how we can end all disagreements between the DC and Marvel cosmic fractions .

For this to be possible we have to treat the companies as equals.
We have to take the cosmic beings by the time they appeared in and what influence they had in this particular period. Like the Pre-Rec Beyonder. Who was the most powerful being in his time.
Cool.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Though, no offense, but your analogy is wrong in one important point.
If you say DC Multiverse 85 is like the Marvel Mutliverse 85 and Beyonder is much more then the 85 Marvel Multiverse, which is true, you also state that the Beyonder is much more then the DC Multiverse, which is wrong.
I disagree.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

To be fair, and to treat both companies as equals one has to accept that the
85 Marvel Multiverse (the drop of water) and the Beyonder Realm (Ocean) = all that is in Marvel.
85 DC Multiverse = all that is in DC.
it's as simple as that.
From this we can now see that AM in COIE who destroyed almost everything in the DC Multiverse (the number doesn't really matter) except 5, was the equal of the Pre Rec Beyonder. The Antimatter Universe was the Ocean and the Remaining DC Multiverse was the water drop.
Wrong.

All of Marvel was the infinite Multiverse,
the Beyonder was from a separate/disconnected creation called the Beyond Realm.

AM wasn't any ocean, both Universes were the same just opposites,
while Beyonder was the ocean, and all of Marvel was a drop of water.

Even though Beyonder was obviously created from withIN the same company,
it doesn't matter, that's how the character was set up to be by SHooter.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

So Pre-Rec Beyonder = COIE AM = Mxy in World Funnest = Thanos THOTU = CA superman (in superman Beyond(er) = Parallax

Thanos + HOTU

Originally posted by Mr Master
Cool.

I disagree.

Wrong.

All of Marvel was the infinite Multiverse,
the Beyonder was from a separate/disconnected creation called the Beyond Realm.

AM wasn't any ocean, both Universes were the same just opposites,
while Beyonder was the ocean, and all of Marvel was a drop of water.

Even though Beyonder was obviously created from withIN the same company,
it doesn't matter, that's how the character was set up to be by SHooter.



So you say that the Marvelverse which was the Beyonder Realm and the Marvel Multiverse (which was everthing there is in Marvel comics 85) is > the DC Multiverse 85 (which was everything there is in DC) ???



This sounds very biased and honestly I expected better of you...

BTW the Antimatter Universe grows with each Universe it destroyes, so when only 5 U were left it really was the ocean and the remaining 5 the last drop standing

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Thanos + HOTU

I know sry for the typo

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So you say that the Marvelverse which was the Beyonder Realm and the Marvel Multiverse (which was everthing there is in Marvel comics 85) is > the DC Multiverse 85 (which was everything there is in DC) ???



This sounds very biased and honestly I expected better of you...

BTW the Antimatter Universe grows with each Universe it destroyes, so when only 5 U were left it really was the ocean and the remaining 5 the last drop standing

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So you say that the Marvelverse which was the Beyonder Realm and the Marvel Multiverse (which was everthing there is in Marvel comics 85) is > the DC Multiverse 85 (which was everything there is in DC) ???



This sounds very biased and honestly I expected better of you...

No. What he is saying is what you essentially agreed to previously before changing your stance in the very same post. '85 Marvelverse and the '85 DCU are equal. You agree to this point. Here's where you're getting lost:

The Beyond Realm isn't a part of the MU. It is, as the name implies, Beyond it. The Beyonder was millions of times stronger than all of the MU. The Beyond Realm was like an Ocean to the MU's drop of water. So if we include our previous premise, that the DCU was equal to the MU in size back in '85 prior to the AM-Wave, then by substitution the Beyonder and the Beyond Realm would also be millions of times larger than the DCU.

If you're committed to holding the two companies as equal, which you said you wanted to do.

Like this:

'85 DCU = '85 MU in size.

Beyond Realm >>> '85 MU.
Beyonder = Millions of times more powerful than '85 MU.

Thus, we can say that:

Beyond Realm >>> '85 DCU
Beyonder = Millions of times more powerful than the '85 DCU.

If you hold to them being equal. And if you don't...well, who looks biased then?

Originally posted by Enyalus
No. What he is saying is what you essentially agreed to previously before changing your stance in the very same post. '85 Marvelverse and the '85 DCU are equal. You agree to this point. Here's where you're getting lost:

The Beyond Realm isn't a part of the MU. It is, as the name implies, Beyond it. The Beyonder was millions of times stronger than all of the MU. The Beyond Realm was like an Ocean to the MU's drop of water. So if we include our previous premise, that the DCU was equal to the MU in size back in '85 prior to the AM-Wave, then by substitution the Beyonder and the Beyond Realm would also be millions of times larger than the DCU.

If you're committed to holding the two companies as equal, which you said you wanted to do.

Like this:

'85 DCU = '85 MU in size.

Beyond Realm >>> '85 MU.
Beyonder = Millions of times more powerful than '85 MU.

Thus, we can say that:

Beyond Realm >>> '85 DCU
Beyonder = Millions of times more powerful than the '85 DCU.

If you hold to them being equal. And if you don't...well, who looks biased then?

I see you just misunderstood me

Marvel Multiverse 85 = DC Multiverse 85

When the Beyonder was introduced to the Marvel Multiverse his Beyonder Realm has also become an part of the Marvelverse (all that is in Marvel comics) which makes it equal to the DC Multiverse. simple isn't it, I said we have to stick to the point, the time, where someone has appeared and judge it. So when AM came and expanded his Antimatterverse, the Antimatterverse and the DC Multiverse was equal then to the Marvelverse.

You see, I just try to treat both as equals

I would never say that the DC Multiverse and the Antimatterverse are > the Marvel Multiverse from 1980, on the contrary. But saying that the Beyonder Realm + the Marvel Multiverse (all that is an part of marvel comics) is > the DC Multiverse (or the DC Multiverse and the Antimatterverse) which also is all that is in DC comics, is just biased.

here my quote from an previous post maybe you will understand now better what i mean.

We have to take the cosmic beings by the time they appeared in and what influence they had in this particular period. Like the Pre-Rec Beyonder. Who was the most powerful being in his time.

So is someone going to measure the size of every universe from every company...start a grid and measure distance?...hey why dont we pick a favorite company and find every instance from every writer..and find all editors notes...and lets try and come up with which universe/multiverse/megaverse is bigger.?..hey maybe 3000 universes are really bigger than 3000 universes from another company..hey i know i have seen a poster actually try and measure a drop of water in ratio to a ocean... ..you know the more i read this thread...the more my respect for the debating at KMC drops....its getting sad people..real sad

Originally posted by starlock
So is someone going to measure the size of every universe from every company...start a grid and measure distance?...hey why dont we pick a favorite company and find every instance from every writer..and find all editors notes...and lets try and come up with which universe/multiverse/megaverse is bigger.?..hey maybe 3000 universes are really bigger than 3000 universes from another company..hey i know i have seen a poster actually try and measure a drop of water in ratio to a ocean... ..you know the more i read this thread...the more my respect for the debating at KMC drops....its getting sad people..real sad



Exactly

If we stop treating the different companies as equals and comapre only the terminology without accepting that both work with different universal concepts, we end up having such discussions.

If DC would decide to introduce the Bongoverse and say it consists of an infinite number of Omniverses (which is an contradiction but comics are no science and contradict each other pretty often. It wouldn't mean that the Bongo DC Verse is > the Marvel Ominverse or the Marvel Multiverse from 85. It's still just the DC verse and it's as big as the Marvelverse.

Though Starlock I have to admit that I have my fun in this thread

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I see you just misunderstood me

Marvel Multiverse 85 = DC Multiverse 85

When the Beyonder was introduced to the Marvel Multiverse his Beyonder Realm has also become an part of the Marvelverse (all that is in Marvel comics) which makes it equal to the DC Multiverse.

And I'm telling you, and Mr. Master probably has the scans to back it up, that that isn't the case. The Beyond Realm was outside of the Marvel Universe. Regardless of whether it was introduced in a Marvel comic. It was not a part of the MU. It was outside of it. The MU itself was already infinite. And the Beyond Realm you already know is vastly larger. Therefore seeing as how the Beyond Realm was bigger than the MU, it would also be larger than the DCU of that time.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So when AM came and expanded his Antimatterverse, the Antimatterverse and the DC Multiverse was equal then to the Marvelverse.

That's not what happened, either. The Anti-Monitor used his Anti-Matter Wave to destroy and absorb universes. That was what expanded. The Anti-matter Universe did not. In fact, a number was given for how large the AM Universe is in an issue of COIE. Know what it was? 32 zillion lightyears across. No, I didn't make a typo. The writer said 'zillion.' Stupid guy, apparently. But anyhow, clearly the AM Universe was not infinite, the number of universes AM ate was not infinite, and therefore you can't possibly unbiasedly say that someone's power who was not infinite (AM) was the equal of someone who had millions of times more than infinite power (Beyonder...and yes, I know the wording is stupid. But blame Shooter, not me.)

Originally posted by Enyalus


And I'm telling you, and Mr. Master probably has the scans to back it up, that that isn't the case. The Beyond Realm was outside of the Marvel Universe. Regardless of whether it was introduced in a Marvel comic. It was not a part of the MU. It was outside of it. The MU itself was already infinite. And the Beyond Realm you already know is vastly larger. Therefore seeing as how the Beyond Realm was bigger than the MU, it would also be larger than the DCU of that time.


I don't doubt that the Beyonder Realm is > Marvel Multiverse nor that it is outside it, nor that it is vastly superior to the Marvel Multiverse. BUT it is still an part of marvel comics, of the marvel verse. Which in turn makes it equal to the dc verse (which is all that is in dc comics).

Originally posted by Enyalus

That's not what happened, either. The Anti-Monitor used his Anti-Matter Wave to destroy and absorb universes. That was what expanded. The Anti-matter Universe did not. In fact, a number was given for how large the AM Universe is in an issue of COIE. Know what it was? 32 zillion lightyears across. No, I didn't make a typo. The writer said 'zillion.' Stupid guy, apparently. But anyhow, clearly the AM Universe was not infinite, the number of universes AM ate was not infinite, and therefore you can't possibly unbiasedly say that someone's power who was not infinite (AM) was the equal of someone who had millions of times more than infinite power (Beyonder...and yes, I know the wording is stupid. But blame Shooter, not me.)

When COIE would happen in the Marvel Ominverse and AM would pawn everything leaving only 616 and 4 others, would you consider him then more powerful then the Pre-Rec Beyonder who only pawned an Multiverse? This kind of logic, as almost all logic in comics, can't work, because it's no logic at all, just an waste of brain cells. To make this pseudologic more simple an less stupid one should consider treating the companyverses as equals, regardless which universal terminology or concept it uses.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I don't doubt that the Beyonder Realm is > Marvel Multiverse nor that it is outside it, nor that it is vastly superior to the Marvel Multiverse. BUT it is still an part of marvel comics, of the marvel verse. Which in turn makes it equal to the dc verse (which is all that is in dc comics).

That's not correct. But I'm not going to keep going around in circles, because now I'm just repeating myself.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
When COIE would happen in the Marvel Ominverse and AM would pawn everything leaving only 616 and 4 others, would you consider him then more powerful then the Pre-Rec Beyonder who only pawned an Multiverse?

Yes, PR Beyonder would kick COIE AM's ass.

Originally posted by Enyalus


That's not correct. But I'm not going to keep going around in circles, because now I'm just repeating myself.



Yes, PR Beyonder would kick COIE AM's ass.

I know what you try to tell me. That Marvel Comics (in this time represented through the Beyonder Realm and the Marvel Universe) are > DC Comics (represented through the DC Multiverse)



And honestly this is just biased in the truest meaning of the word.

It's like talking with fundamentalists of an religion, Jew, Islam, Christ etc. All have differen't concepts and laws (though sometimes they seem similar), each one of them thinks it superior to all others, that it is the only one which is right. They won't accept that they are all brothers, all equals, praying all to the same god.

So if an Marvel fundamentalist wants to believe that "his" Comicverse is superior to another Comicverse, I won't mind or argue anymore. They can believe what they want, as wrong as it is

It's comics, it doesn't really matter, in an Crossover the results will always be the same. That's why in those Crossovers Kismet was = Eternity, LT = Spectre.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I know what you try to tell me. That Marvel Comics (in this time represented through the Beyonder Realm and the Marvel Universe) are > DC Comics (represented through the DC Multiverse)



That isn't what I'm trying to tell you. I'm trying to tell you that the '85 MU = the '85 DCU. AND that the Beyond Realm was larger than the MU, so naturally it might be larger than the DCU.

You're the one who switched the conversation and the language to 'comics' instead of 'universe.' I'm not playing the word games.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That isn't what I'm trying to tell you. I'm trying to tell you that the '85 MU = the '85 DCU. AND that the Beyond Realm was larger than the MU, so naturally it might be larger than the DCU.

You're the one who switched the conversation and the language to 'comics' instead of 'universe.' I'm not playing the word games.

I preferred DCverse and Marvelverse, I just used Comic instead of verse to make myself more clear, but i see it's useless, nevermind

Let's change the subject

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I preferred DCverse and Marvelverse, I just used Comic instead of verse to make myself more clear, but i see it's useless, nevermind

Let's change the subject

Okay.


....I forgot my original stance. But it was probably that PR Beyonder loses.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Okay.


....I forgot my original stance. But it was probably that PR Beyonder loses.



See we agree

but youre both wrong,lol,pr beyonder wins

The Beyonder get anal probed.

Originally posted by iceman24567
The Beyonder get anal probed.

You offering?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

So you say that the Marvelverse which was the Beyonder Realm and the Marvel Multiverse (which was everthing there is in Marvel comics 85) is > the DC Multiverse 85 (which was everything there is in DC) ???

This sounds very biased and honestly I expected better of you...
Of course it sounds biased,
because you're twisting facts, and truth with fallacies and fantasies.

"expect better from me?"



If you wannba challenege me in this particular debate,
bring it,
but don't bring your unsupported delusional rendition of how/what Marvel was/is,
bring on panel proof, if backed up byu Handbooks good,
if backed up by the writer himself even better.

Bring it .. anytime dogs.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

BTW the Antimatter Universe grows with each Universe it destroyes, so when only 5 U were left it really was the ocean and the remaining 5 the last drop standing
Yea, whatever you say.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

Though I have to admit that I have my fun in this thread
"fun?"

I guess, although there's nothing funnier than that troll
fondling my jewels in his mind after nearly 3 years.

ps. You're not the troll btw.

Meh, it's not like his post gets even a second look, so ... who

Originally posted by Mr Master
Of course it sounds biased,
because you're twisting facts, and truth with fallacies and fantasies.
who

I think it's just an misunderstanding, I don't twist facts, why should I and how could I? We talk about two different Universal concepts of two differen't companies that should be considered equal.
There can be no facts in such discussions because those two don't work together, and if they did, like in DC vs Marvel, where they treated each other as equals, even as Brothers, we won't and can't consider it canon because one or both companies won't consider it canon either.

Originally posted by Mr Master

"expect better from me?"


who

Yes, most of the time you bring informative post with nice scans. The only problem I see in you art of poasting is the way you use smileys. Some of them might be a little offensive to some people. Because of them you post change from informative to arrogant or offensive and it's hard to read them without some antipathy. Though you don't use them as often anymore you should consider to omit them in the future.
I know that there are enough people who use them and that it isn't easy. But one has to ask himself on which level he wants to post .

Originally posted by Mr Master

If you wannba challenege me in this particular debate,
bring it,
but don't bring your unsupported delusional rendition of how/what Marvel was/is,
bring on panel proof, if backed up byu Handbooks good,
if backed up by the writer himself even better.

Bring it .. anytime dogs.
who

See I'm no Dog nor am I delusional, and if you read my posts you will see that I never doubted your or Enys definition of what Marvel IS or WAS. On the contrary, I dpo believe you. The discussion is not about what Marvel is, it's about what Marvel is in comparison to DC, and there the answer should always be equal, else one becomes biased. It's that simple. Something like this doesn't need scans just one or two quick and honest logical thoughts .

Originally posted by Enyalus


And I'm telling you, and Mr. Master probably has the scans to back it up, that that isn't the case. The Beyond Realm was outside of the Marvel Universe. Regardless of whether it was introduced in a Marvel comic. It was not a part of the MU. It was outside of it. The MU itself was already infinite. And the Beyond Realm you already know is vastly larger. Therefore seeing as how the Beyond Realm was bigger than the MU, it would also be larger than the DCU of that time.



That's not what happened, either. The Anti-Monitor used his Anti-Matter Wave to destroy and absorb universes. That was what expanded. The Anti-matter Universe did not. In fact, a number was given for how large the AM Universe is in an issue of COIE. Know what it was? 32 zillion lightyears across. No, I didn't make a typo. The writer said 'zillion.' Stupid guy, apparently. But anyhow, clearly the AM Universe was not infinite, the number of universes AM ate was not infinite, and therefore you can't possibly unbiasedly say that someone's power who was not infinite (AM) was the equal of someone who had millions of times more than infinite power (Beyonder...and yes, I know the wording is stupid. But blame Shooter, not me.) Given that the current estimates of our universe are something like 90 billion lightyears and growing, 32 zillion is pretty big.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I would just like to add to this that regardless of whether the '85-'86 DCU was as large as '84-'85 MU is irrelevant. Why? Because AM didn't absorb/destroy an infinite number of universes. Early in COIE, Pariah mentions he's seen the destruction of over 300 universes at the hands of the Anti-Matter wave. Much later, when there are only the three universes left (plus the two in that pocket realm), Barry Allen mentions that AM has destroyed a thousand universes. And IIRC, in the same issue, while AM is still in his universe getting set to absorb the power of the Anti-Matter universe, he says he's destroyed 'a thousand and more' universes. Marv Wolfman, the writer of COIE, lists the official count at 3,000 universes in the reprinted HC edition of COIE in....1999, I think. Which yeah, is absolutely impressive. But clearly, there is a number given and that can be measured. http://dccomics.com/dcu/heroes_and_villains/?hv=history_of_dcu/4&p=1

"At the time, there was infinite number of Universes. The Anti-Monitor's attack, termed by some as the Crisis on Infinite Earths--left just one."

http://dccomics.com/dcu/heroes_and_villains/?hv=history_of_dcu/3&p=1

"You think of Earth as a singular planet. In fact, it was anything but. For this is not the story of a universe, but a multiverse. Where universes and planets such as Earth were replicated and mirrored across a vibrating infinite plane. Some barely different than the next, others drastically so. It was life beyond tibulation, beyond limit."

"Until the End came."

"The Anti-Matter Wave."

"Yes, a great wall of Anti-Matter energy that surged through universes, erasing everything in it's path."

Originally posted by Mr Master
Excellent find,
that puts to rest the mis-information that's been dancing around here for a while. You should know better, bro.
Anyways, it's been corrected.

Originally posted by Mr Master
No one but the supreme being of a company has any chance against Beyonder.

And Spectre was never equal to God,
he was given insight into what it was like to be God,
but that's inconsequential
since he couldn't even handled the momentary experience. Correction. Jim Corrigan couldn't handle the experience. A simple minded man from a simple time, who died and became an anchor to reality for a literal part of God.

This thread is an epic fail. The beyond wrealm ispart of what is now the marvel omniverse. Period. The beyond wrealm isnrt some seperate from marvel reality. Cuit that crap bs out. It is owned by marvel and thus part of marvel.

Dc still has multiple multiverses as each of the 52 is in and of itself a multiverse. And there is still hypertime and vertigo. The antimatter universe is still out there somewhere. As are the higher dimensions. Thus every thing published by dc is part of the omnireality of dc.

That means both companies are equal. Dc even explained that one unviverse still housed the power of a multiverse. And hal jordan as parrallax reiterated this when he showed that even with the power of just one reality, he was able to create more and more.

The beyonder to date still has no record of defeating any omniversal being. We don't know how mich power his universe held either since it had no abstracts. A bog void universe with no power. Yeah it's bigger than the main marvel multiverse but in no way better.

And I'm sick of this crap where people try and use the feats of the currwnt LT to somehow boost the beyonder's status. Crap. A load of crap. The lt wasn't over the beyond wrealm which is part of marvel and also owned by toaa. So yeah get that sillyness outta here. At best the classic beyonder is as powerful as mxy. And I don't even give him that much credit. At least mxy on panel has fought gods wrath. He's retconned. Something only editors can do. He's destroyed all reality. He's remade it. He taken blast from the sum total of everything and created his own version of the endless. Hell he even owns comic realities.

PR Beyonder more or less = Mxy

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
PR Beyonder more or less = Mxy Much more than Mxy imo. He made Lt shit his pants.

Originally posted by Enyalus
But anyhow, clearly the AM Universe was not infinite, the number of universes AM ate was not infinite Not exactly. Recently, the Monitors specifically stated there were an infinite number of universes during the time of the first crisis. So, as dumb as it sounds, AM destroyed/absorbed all but 3 of an infinite amount of positive matter universes.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
PR Beyonder more or less = Mxy

Beyonder wins

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
PR Beyonder more or less = Mxy

That is like saying PC Superman= The Hulk.

LT was nothing compared to Beyonder and LT>>>>>Mxy

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
That is like saying PC Superman= The Hulk.

Yeah.

He's probably more around Batmite's level.

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
That is like saying PC Superman= The Hulk.

LT was nothing compared to Beyonder and LT>>>>>Mxy yeah cuz beyonder has anywhere near the lvl of mxy's feats. Beyonder has very ambiguous feats. And the only crap people use is that he was more powerful than the lt. And then use current lt showings as a measuring stick. Pure retarded crap thinking.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Beyonder has very ambiguous feats. Such as?

Originally posted by Mindset
Such as? no actual battles against any beyond multiversal beings. the moleculeman himself never perfromed actual multiversal feats. just a few repairs. and the hybwerbolish descriptions of thier blast is a whooo ha.

Originally posted by fangirl101
no actual battles against any beyond multiversal beings. the moleculeman himself never perfromed actual multiversal feats. just a few repairs. and the hybwerbolish descriptions of thier blast is a whooo ha. What is a beyond multiversal being?

Beyonder killing and bringing back Multiversal Death isn't impressive?

Oh, ok, you choose not to accept the description of his fight with Molecule Man as a feat because?

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
That is like saying PC Superman= The Hulk.

LT was nothing compared to Beyonder and LT>>>>>Mxy

Are you sure it isn't more like

Beyonder 1985 >>>> LT 1985

LTs reputation has grown since then I guess

Protege?

Originally posted by fangirl101
no actual battles against any beyond multiversal beings. the moleculeman himself never perfromed actual multiversal feats. just a few repairs. and the hybwerbolish descriptions of thier blast is a whooo ha.

FC Darksied doesn't even have a single battles feat..all he got is some hybwerbolish..u guys seem to have no problem giving him the win against anyone he face..

Originally posted by Slaanesh
FC Darksied doesn't even have a single battles feat..all he got is some hybwerbolish..u guys seem to have no problem giving him the win against anyone he face.. not true. And his lackey's did have some battle feats. So by proxy u can summize how powerful he trulyb was.

Originally posted by fangirl101
not true. And his lackey's did have some battle feats. So by proxy u can summize how powerful he trulyb was.

so..u assume how powerful he is from his lackey's battle feat..but when we assume how powerful beyonder is from him beating someone who is a multiversel being..it doesn't count?? nice

Originally posted by Slaanesh
so..u assume how powerful he is from his lackey's battle feat..but when we assume how powerful beyonder is from him beating someone who is a multiversel being..it doesn't count?? nice no. U guys give beyonder god status which is crap. He hadn't beaten anyone with megaversal or omniversal status.

the DC fanboy give Darksied a god status too..saying that he is everything there is..all the thing in the multiverse is Darksied..we haven't seen his true form and all kinda other crap..when did he actually show all that??don't say that it was state on panel..cuz it was also state on panel that beyonder is god..

Originally posted by Juntai
http://dccomics.com/dcu/heroes_and_villains/?hv=history_of_dcu/4&p=1

"At the time, there was infinite number of Universes. The Anti-Monitor's attack, termed by some as the Crisis on Infinite Earths--left just one."

Would it make any difference at all to you if I were to post several of the screenshots which I was referring to?

Besides, the account used in the History of the DCU as you know is overly simplified. Case in point: it didn't randomly go from infinite to one, like that Monitor recording said. What that thing is implying is that AM ate all but one universe out of an infinite number. Which we know isn't true because we know how the Earth-1 universe came to be.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not exactly. Recently, the Monitors specifically stated there were an infinite number of universes during the time of the first crisis. So, as dumb as it sounds, AM destroyed/absorbed all but 3 of an infinite amount of positive matter universes.

Well no kidding. In the COIE issues it mentions several times about how there's an infinite amount of universes....and then it goes on to state crap about him destroying a thousand universes after all that is left are the three remaining ones. And the writer saying, after completing COIE, that AM destroyed 3,000 of them.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Well no kidding. In the COIE issues it mentions several times about how there's an infinite amount of universes....and then it goes on to state crap about him destroying a thousand universes after all that is left are the three remaining ones. And the writer saying, after completing COIE, that AM destroyed 3,000 of them. The most recent information (which is also the most accurate/canonical,) stated there were an infinite number of universes during the first crisis. So unless it's contradicted by more recent information, then AM destroyed/absorbed all but a couple, of infinity.

this kinda ties in to another thread that currently is going on

Originally posted by fangirl101
no. U guys give beyonder god status which is crap. He hadn't beaten anyone with megaversal or omniversal status.
he defeated everyone. he beat the entire celestial race. and everyone else. pretty omniversal there if you ask me.

Team two.
Beyonder's a pussy.

there is no other comic char that show power on Beyonder level..Beyonder is the most powerful char that have ever been created..no one can win against him..only TOAA can..

Originally posted by Slaanesh
there is no other comic char that show power on Beyonder level..Beyonder is the most powerful char that have ever been created..no one can win against him..only TOAA can..
Somewhere, Mr. Master just smiled.

Originally posted by tsscls
Team two.
Beyonder's a pussy. This.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Somewhere, Mr. Master just smiled. He did something, but I'm not sure it was smile.

Originally posted by Mekrob
Black Adam solos

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He'd be destroyed before he can adapt. What about that is hard to understand?

He also would never be able to adapt to PR Beyonder no matter what.

I don't consider The Presence equal to PR Beyonder or THOTI, if The Presence has equal in GEB. It doesn't work that way. Except if GEB is The Presence expansion, so the same person but in a different role.

Hmm i was just thinking about something but ill try to put it the best i can.

Back then jim shooter wanted beyonder to be the powerfulest (and im pretty sure he would want him to be the most powerfulest no matter what changes happen, including the new verses that would get added and such and any other changes, it was his intent afterall), in the comics the highest that existed was the multiverse (if im wrong about this please let me know so i can just end this discussion now lol). Say had he not created beyonder back then but now, with the same intent (Im sure he would have the same intent) had he done this now instead of back then, wouldn't the drop in the ocean be now added with whatever the highest verse is available now? instead of the multiverse, since his character would adapt to whatever is the highest now?. It is really difficult to explain but hopefully someone might know what i mean by this.

Just something to think about, nothing more.

ORION written by me

Originally posted by Darr
Hmm i was just thinking about something but ill try to put it the best i can.

Back then jim shooter wanted beyonder to be the powerfulest (and im pretty sure he would want him to be the most powerfulest no matter what changes happen, including the new verses that would get added and such and any other changes, it was his intent afterall), in the comics the highest that existed was the multiverse (if im wrong about this please let me know so i can just end this discussion now lol). Say had he not created beyonder back then but now, with the same intent (Im sure he would have the same intent) had he done this now instead of back then, wouldn't the drop in the ocean be now added with whatever the highest verse is available now? instead of the multiverse, since his character would adapt to whatever is the highest now?. It is really difficult to explain but hopefully someone might know what i mean by this.

Just something to think about, nothing more. No one will know what you mean, EVER.