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This is TFU vader against ventress.

1)Sabers
2)Force
3)All out

1.) No idea.

2.) ROFLstomp.

3.) Stomp. He is far too powerful for her to contend with for long.

Wasn't she able to at the least fight mace windu and survive?

This isn't a spite thread or anything, i thought from what i read in the other threads, ventress should at ledast give vader some challenge.

But as for sabers i think she will.

Early on in the war, she backpedaled and jumped off a cliff to get away from Windu. She's easily one of the top ten in the era as of Obsession, but Vader could probably crush all but three or four of the PT greats using the Force alone.

That said, I can definitely see Ventress winning the duel. I'm leaning towards her, in fact. But she has absolutely no chance in an all-out scenario.

She has superb skill in sabers, and agility that outdoes Vader by a long shot. But his TK is DAMN.

Yea im thinking she wins the saber duel too, but not for easy for sure.

A little off topic, but do you believe, then, that Ventress could defeat General Grievous or Kit Fisto?

To quote Labyrinth of Evil and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Grievous surpassed all of Dooku's disciples in swordsmanship in "weeks." And he did defeat her and Durge together.

Originally posted by Gideon
A little off topic, but do you believe, then, that Ventress could defeat General Grievous or Kit Fisto?

To quote Labyrinth of Evil and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Grievous surpassed all of Dooku's disciples in swordsmanship in "weeks." And he did defeat her and Durge together.

Didn't she once nearly defeat Kit Fisto, but Obi Wan interfered?

Originally posted by Gideon
A little off topic, but do you believe, then, that Ventress could defeat General Grievous or Kit Fisto?She's already defeated the latter, and within the first year of the war at that. Grievous? Eh. It's conceivable, but only because TCW has knocked him down four or five notches.

Again, at the beginning of the war, and also with the necessary advantages of fear, surprise, and intimidation. Grievous is capable of taking down just about anyone if he starts the battle with those on his side, but without them he isn't quite as dangerous; look at the nature of the battles he's won versus that of those he's lost.

Like I said, Labyrinth of Evil and the Encyclopedia make it clear that Grievous is a better swordsman than Ventress. He surpassed her in mere weeks.

Originally posted by Gideon
Like I said, Labyrinth of Evil and the Encyclopedia make it clear that Grievous is a better swordsman than Ventress. He surpassed her in mere weeks.

Interesting. Grievous couldn't defeat Obiwan and Obiwan couldn't defeat Ventress.

Yeah, as well as Yoda couldn't defeat Palps while Mace could. There are other factors to consider, not only who's the better swordsman.

Like what? Mace's victory could be attributed to Vaapad and shatterpoint. What would the circumstance be between Grievous, Ventress, and Kenobi?

For Kenobi and Ventress, the fact that Kenobi is the master of soresu probably had a huge impact on the duel.

As for Ventress and Kenobi... What about it? He might've never defeated Ventress, but, as far as I know, Ventress never defeated him, either. Although, in all honesty, I don't know the occasions in which Kenobi and Ventress fought, apart from the CW movie, so I can't really argue much about that.

Originally posted by Gideon
Like I said, Labyrinth of Evil and the Encyclopedia make it clear that Grievous is a better swordsman than Ventress. He surpassed her in mere weeks. The passage from LoE represents the beliefs of Grievous himself; it's from his perspective. I've never seen the one from the Enyclopedia.

And assuming Grievous is the superior technical swordsman - the LoE passage makes specific note of Dooku training him in "lightsaber technique - then Ventress's defeat of Fisto needs to be explained. Granted, she had observed his unarmed fighting style for several minutes prior to dueling him, but Grievous had already gone against up Fisto once, and he had already been trained in Shii-Cho by Dooku. There's no mention of Ventress using the Force against Kit, either, and I have immense trouble believing that she has a more unorthdox combat style than the four-armed cyborg who can rotate his wrists and fight with his feet.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
For Kenobi and Ventress, the fact that Kenobi is the master of soresu probably had a huge impact on the duel.

As for Ventress and Kenobi... What about it? He might've never defeated Ventress, but, as far as I know, Ventress never defeated him, either.I have no idea when the CWC movie takes place, but The Cestus Deception is set a year into the war, and she completely outclasses him then. She has him on his back in literally two exchanges, and he only survives because the heavily wounded Fisto cuts the supports for the dock they're on and drops them both into the water.

Damn, I've been really underestimating Ventress then. She's now replaced Kenobi in my top tier list.

Yeah, Ventress is good. Still, she was little more than a tool for Dooku and Palpatine, who describes her as an 'occasionally capable warrior. Nothing more or less.'

Everyone was a tool for Palpatine. It doesn't mean anything.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Interesting. Grievous couldn't defeat Obiwan and Obiwan couldn't defeat Ventress.

Same with Fisto. Grievous couldn't best Fisto, but Ventress could.

The series represents a higher place in canon authority than the rest of the Expanded Universe.

And I have a hard time believing that General Grievous was somehow inferior to Asajj Ventress, since every piece of literature either says, shows, or implies otherwise.

Originally posted by Gideon
The series represents a higher place in canon authority than the rest of the Expanded Universe.

And I have a hard time believing that General Grievous was somehow inferior to Asajj Ventress, since every piece of literature either says, shows, or implies otherwise.

Didn't Grievous force Obi Wan to flee in the series, while Obi Wan forced Ventress to flee in the movie?

Originally posted by Gideon
The series represents a higher place in canon authority than the rest of the Expanded Universe.Perhaps I'm reading this wrong. Are you implying that the duel in CD has been rendered invalid?

Labyrinth of Evil and even the TCW each have Dooku lecturing Grievous on his fallibility as a combatant.

LoE:
"'Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters.'

called into hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air - - a Makashi flourish.

'Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?'

He flicked his blade quickly, ridding two of the guards of their staffs, then placing the glowing tip a millimeter from Grievous's death-helmeted visage.

'Finesse. Artfulness. Economy. Otherwise, my friend, I fear that you will end up beyond the repair of even the Geonosians. Do you take my meaning?'"

TCW:
"Don't let your pursuit of trinkets cloud your reality. Remember what I taught you, General. If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. But if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory and have your trophy."

Dooku also makes mention of Ventress twice in LoE in that same section; once to note how he deplored the habit of collecting lightsabers, as she, Grievous and the "lesser" Aurra Sing did, and again when musing that he had allowed Grievous to fill himself with hatred, as had Ventress and Darth Maul before him. Neither Dooku nor the narrator ever note Grievous to be a superior warrior to Ventress.

In LoE, though, Grievous pretty much butchers skilled Jedi head on, including a Council Member/Former Council member. The indications are that Grievous is the best of the Count's servants....based on what we know, I'd personally place Ventress below Grievous and Sora Bulq.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In LoE, though, Grievous pretty much butchers skilled Jedi head on, including a Council Member/Former Council member.Who?

I'd probably put her below Bulq. But at this point, the General's ability in regards to upper-tier duelists is suspect.

Originally posted by Gideon
The series represents a higher place in canon authority than the rest of the Expanded Universe.

And I have a hard time believing that General Grievous was somehow inferior to Asajj Ventress, since every piece of literature either says, shows, or implies otherwise.

which series? I think you are referring to the new CW cartoons and if you aren't maybe you and others can shed some light on this question.

how cannon is the new CW series? I'd say it beats out the novels and comics and the other CWC series because didn't Lucas have more influence in the new CW series?

It's either equal to or right under the movies.

All I gotta say is that Kenobi made Ventress look like a goth punk in the CW movie.

Ok, so vader "stomps" her with the force assuming he unleashes everything he had like he did on galen, but i see ventress giving vader a hardtime with sabers though i am inclined to believe vader wins as he fights with an unorthodox style.

Ventress takes this in a lightsaber duel. Vader wins brutally in a contest of the force. All out? Considering the variables, I'd say it's difficult to tell.

My error, Faunus. I'd thought Pablo Jill was a council member for a bit-albeit he was included in the rescue team, which speaks a bit to his skill.

And no. Ventress most certainly does NOT win in a saber duel.

Considering that as a relative neophyte, she took down one of the greatest swordsmen the Order had ever produced, and would later give Vader's faster, more agile self fits in multiple encounters, I don't see the reasoning there.

Against an Anakin who is, by nature tapping into his dark side, is a greater saber master than he was as a Knight, probably surpassing a level when he was able to duel and kill people as Dooku and Cin Drallig...Vader's demonstrated substantial prowess with a saber and his lack of agility aside, he's certainly down with his saber skills.

Don't forget that Anakin was able to outduel and kill Cin Drallig with one hand while devoting some his attention to force choking Bene.

Hmm... I have a hard time believing Vader is an improved swordsman version of ROTS Anakin.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Against an Anakin who is, by nature tapping into his dark side,And yet, he still frequently mourns his comparative lack of power. When he used the dark side as Jedi he would tap into his essentially unlimited reserves of power; he no longer has that advantage as Vader.

See the above.

Better than he was in RotS or earlier? Doubtful.

First off, he was he choking Bene with his hand, not the Force. Second, we never saw how that fight ended. Third, that was Vader before the suit; this isn't.

We do know how the fight ended, actually:

"Drallig tried to fend off Vader with the help of two of his students, Whie and Bene, but Vader cut them down."

-- the Complete Encyclopedia, Cin Drallig's entry, page 205.

The fact that he was fending the fabled swordsmaster off while grappling with the Bene speaks of casual mastery over Drallig who, I reiterate, is a fabled swordsmaster.

The Rise of Darth Vader also points out that Vader was able to use elements of all seven lightsaber forms into a unique style that led to the deaths of several Jedi Knights in single combat. While he certainly isn't as agile or as quick, there's no reason to assume that his mastery of both the lightsaber or the Force diminished or that he couldn't have focused on improving both of them, despite his anatomical state.

But what about facing off against someone as agile as Ventress?

Originally posted by Lightsnake

And no. Ventress most certainly does NOT win in a saber duel.

Listen, I know Vader looks bad ass and all of that but come on. Ventress would floor Vader due to mobility alone. She's agile, powerful and has considerable skill. Vader's skill has decreased quite considerably, especially after his incident on Mustafar.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But what about facing off against someone as agile as Ventress?

Didn't he evade (while unarmed) an enraged bounty hunter?

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
Listen, I know Vader looks bad ass and all of that but come on. Ventress would floor Vader due to mobility alone. She's agile, powerful and has considerable skill. Vader's skill has decreased quite considerably, especially after his incident on Mustafar.

No, vader's SPEED has decreased. If anything his skill has increased. I would never claim that he is ROTS Anakin's equal in swordsmanship, but lets not make wild claims about his skills actually diminishing after the injury. He just had to "change" his skills.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Didn't he evade (while unarmed) an enraged bounty hunter?

Yes he did, it was jedi killer Aurra Sing. To add to that he also trained with dueling droids that were faster then a ordinary man

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Yes he did, it was jedi killer Aurra Sing. To add to that he also trained with dueling droids that were faster then a ordinary man

QED

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
QED

huh?

Wiki it.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, vader's SPEED has decreased. If anything his skill has increased. I would never claim that he is ROTS Anakin's equal in swordsmanship, but lets not make wild claims about his skills actually diminishing after the injury. He just had to "change" his skills.

I'm sorry but it's bluntly visible that his skill decreases after the Mustafar incident. Don't be so naive. He clearly did not just lose speed. He lost mobility as well. He can't utilize the Shien form as successfully as he used to. Have you seen Vader's saber mobility after the incident on Mustafar?

Originally posted by Publius II
And yet, he still frequently mourns his comparative lack of power.
He is eighty percent of his master's power. Do you think Ventress, in any way, shape or form, can compare to that?

As Vader, he already has substantial and significant dark side power, however

As Gideon provided, there are sources indicating otherwise

Errr, I'm pretty sure he was Forc e Choking her, and if he was using his hand, then he's fending off the Jedi Order's Saber instructor while being grounded in place.
And we know how the fight ended. Vader quickly outmaneuvered Cin and sliced through his shoulder, killing him.

As Gideon pointed out, Anakin as Vader proceeded to utterly refine his style. And in Crimson Empire, he displays some very talented feats of Acrobats against the best of the Royal Guard trainees.

Ventress might give Vader a slightly difficult time, but he'd kill her.

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
I'm sorry but it's bluntly visible that his skill decreases after the Mustafar incident. Don't be so naive. He clearly did not just lose speed. He lost mobility as well. He can't utilize the Shien form as successfully as he used to. Have you seen Vader's saber mobility after the incident on Mustafar?

He never used Shien. And I saw Vader's saber mobility when he was fending off multiple Jedi masters and knights in Purge. Which REALLY kills your point.

Vader, btw, used Djem So and proceeded to incorporate other elements into it, making him even more formidable.

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
I'm sorry but it's bluntly visible that his skill decreases after the Mustafar incident. Don't be so naive. He clearly did not just lose speed. He lost mobility as well. He can't utilize the Shien form as successfully as he used to. Have you seen Vader's saber mobility after the incident on Mustafar? Lack of mobility and agility, while certainly an inhibitor, doesn't necessarily correlate to decreased skill. Not all the saber forms required total dexterity.

It's more than likely that Anakin was already familiar with most of those styles before his duel with Obi-Wan. The Sith novelization and, according to you, the Ultimate Visual Guide both explain that during the beginning of the duel, Anakin and Obi-Wan were using alternate styles to throw Dooku off; I believe they were Shii-Cho and Ataru, respectively. We already know from the half a dozen or more descriptions of the bond between the two that Anakin knew Obi-Wan's style inside out and vice-versa, so there's Soresu. I believe the Attack of the Clones visual guide notes that Anakin utilized Ataru himself until the advent of the Clone War, but don't hold me to that.

So that's three of seven that he is at least familiar with, and possibly four. One might assume that he was trained in Niman as a youth, and took to studying critical aspects of Makashi after his first duel with Dooku, but those are assumptions.

I should get to the rest of your points in this.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He is eighty percent of his master's power. Do you think Ventress, in any way, shape or form, can compare to that?Did you not read my first post?
I make it very clear that a duel is the only place in which Ventress can contend with Vader on equal footing.

And by your logic, no one this side of Yoda, Luke, and Caedus should be able to lay a finger on him. Vader's duel with the Dark Woman sort of takes the steam out of that argument.

The Revenge of the Sith novel has Vader reflecting on his own loss of power; no later source implies that he gained back that power. It isn't what he could consciously do that I'm debating, it's what unconsciously tapping into his unlimited reserves of power while under the thrall of the dark side allows him to do. Ventress? Dooku? He couldn't take beat either of them without giving in to the rage, but once he did there was basically no stopping him.

Hell, even before Count Dooku makes Anakin angry, the novel - and the script - note that Skywalker's power makes him stronger as the fight progresses. Vader? Not so much. His duel with Roan Shryne didn't see him gaining power, nor do his duels with any Jedi afterwards, including his final battles against Galen and Luke. He doesn't have that kind of power available to him anymore, and it's not about acquired power; even Yoda and Palpatine tire after long, intense battles. It's about the reserves of power afforded to Anakin by his peerless potential. Vader no longer has that, or at least he can't touch it.

Those sources never once suggest that he is a superior swordsman overall to his younger self. Not a one. Gideon noted that there is no evidence to suggest that Vader didn't work on his agility; I realize that. But unless I am mistaken, the TUF novel still has him using a relatively slow and measured - if powerful and precise - style of combat against Galen. He never turns into some sort of catlike speed demon.

Watch it again, LS. He's holding Bene with his left hand while he and Drallig circle around one another.

They're both moving.

No offense, but is your memory of the scene really that foggy?

I assume you get that from the scene in in DN; that's what had confused me in the first place. Thanks for the clarification.

That said, you're only furthering my point; we never see suited Vader do anything with a lightsaber that is comparable to the things he did when he was "whole."

I realize. But the refinements were meant to compensate for the loss of speed and agility

Nothing that would impress a Jedi.

"Slightly" difficult? That's a ridiculous assertion.

You realize he got bitched in Purge, right? Not the best example.

That said, OT Vader is most definitely a more technically skilled duelist than his younger incarnation.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He never used Shien. And I saw Vader's saber mobility when he was fending off multiple Jedi masters and knights in Purge. Which REALLY kills your point.

Vader, btw, used Djem So and proceeded to incorporate other elements into it, making him even more formidable.

That has to be one of the most incorrect statements I've seen in my duration here so far.

Shien and Djem So go hand in hand. They're both included in Form five and it's training process. Anakin used it against Dooku three times. He later adopted more styles but saying he never used it is outright ignorant.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Djem_So

How does that kill my point? If you're referring to the Purge comic book, Darth Vader is cornered and outmaneuvered by Potkin. Potkin used a sword to do this, by the way. He has to use the force in order to gain the upper hand.

This is why I mentioned that Ventress may win in lightsabers and lose in the force. If some nobody can do that to Vader with a sword, Ventress won't be able to? Seriously? Also, he gets his hand severed in a duel furthermore and surrenders at the mercy of the Jedi. Vader gains the upper hand again using the force but is cornered for the third time. Then, he gets his clone trooper friends to save his ass from getting murdered.

Is that the one? Is that the comic you're referring to? Did I make a mistake?

You see, facing 7 jedi knights after merely 3 weeks of barely any dark side training and recovering from the injuries at mustafar isn't exactly advisable to do.

Of course he is going to get "tooled".

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
That has to be one of the most incorrect statements I've seen in my duration here so far.

Shien and Djem So go hand in hand. They're both included in Form five and it's training process. Anakin used it against Dooku three times. He later adopted more styles but saying he never used it is outright ignorant.

No, they don't, any more than Jar'Kai goes 'hand in hand' with Niman. Anakin also, you'll notice, only assumes it against Dooku to fool him, as noted on the ROTS novelization. Shien is derived from Djem So, but Djem So is almost different entirely and that is Anakin's true strength.

If by 'cornered and outmanuevered' you mean 'took advantage of him being hemmed in from all sides by skilled Jedi to get him to strike a cortosis sword and was immediately killed afterwards...

Huh, there's a word for this and it's 'dishonest.' Shadday used a CORTOSIS BLADE so Vader's saber would be deactivated whereupon he snapped her neck and even used his severed arm to kill another of the Jedi after tricking him into murdering Bultar Swann.
He 'cornered' and badly losing at the very end when three Jedi masters took advantage of his injuries-from, y'know, fighting numerous masters and knights simultaneously- to begin pelting him with rocks

Ohhh, so Ventress wil be carrying a weapon that renders a lightsaber useless for several minutes, now. I suppose by your logic, Bok the Morgukai is freaking incredible for carrying a gauntlet of Cortosis now.

Again, there's a word for this and it's 'dishonest.'
Vader gets his hand severed because his saber is useless and he's somewhat distracted by needed to snap Shadday Potkin's neck. He doesn't 'surrender at their mercy,' either, he takes advantage of one of them and gets him to murder another and promptly dispatches him as well.

Mistake? I hope so. Otherwise, you were pretty much just twisting facts.

At what point has Vader shown that he will be outmatched by people with manueverability and agility? he kind of compensated for the suit, you'll notice, otherwise anyone with Ataru could've killed him.

One would think, in the words of Palpatine, the 'Greatest Jedi Killer' would have long compensated.

Originally posted by Publius II
It's more than likely that Anakin was already familiar with most of those styles before his duel with Obi-Wan. The Sith novelization and, according to you, the Ultimate Visual Guide both explain that during the beginning of the duel, Anakin and Obi-Wan were using alternate styles to throw Dooku off; I believe they were Shii-Cho and Ataru, respectively. We already know from the half a dozen or more descriptions of the bond between the two that Anakin knew Obi-Wan's style inside out and vice-versa, so there's Soresu. I believe the Attack of the Clones visual guide notes that Anakin utilized Ataru himself until the advent of the Clone War, but don't hold me to that.


As we can see, by the time of ROTS, Anakin has surpassed Ventress's level. I sincerely doubt he is diminished to the level where Ventress can contend with him there

Not only was An'ya a highly powerful and experienced Jedi Master, she was using the environment to her advantage all the way through the fight and noticably not standing to fight. She had the advantage of being very familiar with where she was fighting and using it to her advantage.

Vader's potential and growth were certainly stunted, but he's still a monster in the Force as Vader. With years of training, there's a good bet he doesn't need to subconsciously give himself to rage when he is capable of using his rage very effectively in a fight.


You're forgetting Dooku's comments of Ani having 'hate and anger' but not using them. Vader is always living with hate and anger and he IS using them. It's hard to gain more power than being over half the power of the most powerful Dark Lord ever. I believe there's a quote about Vader's skills with a saber honed even further during the Jedi Purge but even that was secondary to his 'incredible mastery of the Force.'


See above there. Vader compensated for his losses, incorporated more styles into his fighting style and most certainly honed his abilities

I never suggested he was. However, he demonstrates ample speed to, with little Sith training, fend off and keep from being sliced to ribbons by numerous opponents and run a Jedi Knight through before she was even capable of defending herself

Apparently so, but my point remains. With one hand he is fending off and defeating Cin Drallig with attention devoted to strangling another Jedi

Actually, the Jedi in Dark Nest is apparently someone different. The Order 66 Article from Insider had info on Drallig's death

As I don't have time to really search my sources, I'm relying on a bit from Wookie right now, but it's usually very accurate. We know Vader regained some of his old agility, and adopted a very crisp, precise and unpredictable style that focuses on making every strike count and honed that very well through the Purge. His skills are very likely comparable, if they haven't grown, loss of his agility aside. He traded that for precision and power

And compensate they did. If Vader would've been easily dismantled by just speed, someone would have done it many times

Of course not, but he demonstrates talent there

Possibly difficult then, but I do not see Ventress winning. Especially not against Vader several years into the Purge when he finds his game

I realize he fought numerous Jedi simultaneously and was only in real danger when he lost his saber thanks to the cortosis blade

A point I was trying to make

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Interesting. Grievous couldn't defeat Obiwan and Obiwan couldn't defeat Ventress.

well ventress couldn't defeat obi wan either.. it was mostly stalemates. at least this one time, I recall reading about them holding their breaths underwater and she wasn't willing to die, and left. It was kinda like a contest or something.. lol

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As we can see, by the time of ROTS, Anakin has surpassed Ventress's level.Look.

Six months before Sith, the Battle of Rendili. Ignoring the fact that Skywalker attacked her in a rage to begin with, she mocks and toys with him for almost the entirety of the duel. Even when furious, he can barely touch her. I highly doubt that he's advanced that much in six months.

The faster, more agile, more powerful Anakin could hardly contend with her to begin with.

Fair enough.

I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp. What Anakin could subconsciously tap into in moments of dire need is something that was completely unique to him; Vader can't do it. It isn't about progressive mastery of the Force, it's about what Anakin's limitless reserves of power allowed him to in moments of rage. And make no mistake, almost all of his greatest showings are done under the thrall of the dark side.

No, I'm highlighting the fact that when he did use them, he could call on power reserves that he simply doesn't have as an older Vader.

He's never as fast, he's never as agile, he's never as powerful. The compensation only goes so far.

Been over this. You're furthering my point.

How many accomplished swordsman lived past the purge and went on to fight Vader? Obi-Wan? Sacrificed himself to let Luke escape. Maul clone? Killed only when Vader stabbed through himself. Starkiller? Kicked his ass.

He appears to make most of his leaps early on, in RoDV. I've seen little indication of any notable increase in agility or efficiency past that point.

You need to take another look.

His skill doesn't make up for the lost power. He never regained the ability to grow stronger as a duel progresses, which is what won him several critical battles as a Jedi.

Originally posted by Publius II
Look.

Six months before Sith, the Battle of Rendili. Ignoring the fact that Skywalker attacked her in a rage to begin with, she mocks and toys with him for almost the entirety of the duel. Even when furious, he can barely touch her. I highly doubt that he's advanced that much in six months.
He is able to fight and kill Dooku and Cin Drallig. The latter can be debatable, but Ventress was never someone who could stand to Dooku.


At his peak, Anakin was more than contending with her better.


I get it. He can't go 'in the zone' and tap into that anymore due to physical or mental limitations. What he CAN do is call up the vast Dark Side power he has as Vader

And he has power and experience to compensate for that.

He's more skilled, more experienced and consistently his prowess is commented upon, Palpatine even calls him his finest creation and his greatest Jedi Killer who'd ever lived, in comparison to his viewing of Ventress as merely capable. There is a reason why Ventress, in no uncertain terms, is never once seen as a Sith Apprentice.
The compensation goes quite far enough, especially when Vader has this tendency to consistently rise to the occasion.

An'ya Kuro? Rannik Solusar? Kento Marek and his master, Brand...there were quite a few survivors and Vader is known for having killed the vast majority of them.

Just commenting on the quotes I've seen.

At the very worst, he takes a blow from Jastus. The battle isn't Vader getting overwhelmed until he loses the lightsaber

Look how powerful Vader is. He's had 18 years of study as a Sith Apprentice, has had time to adjust to his flaws and in power, he's eight tenths of Palpatine and that's apparently not inconsiderate in the slightest. His skills with a saber, which you yourself have noted are technically better than when he was unburnt, are said to pale next to his mastery of the force, and this apparently without the Sith Amulet he has under his right glove to bolster his power. (Source: Evil Never Dies: the Sith Dynasties)

Vader's shown himself capable of defending against maneuverable and agile opponents and his precision has shown to be a great advantage.

If it was so easy to take Vader out, any number of fighters would have done so. Keep in mind, he's also fast enough to reduce a full assassination squad of stormies to chopped limbs and smoking armor before their commander can even flee to the door in Empire

What do you mean Vader kicked Starkiller's ass? Rather, Starkiller kicked the Emperor's and Vader's asses.

In the book and the game. Canon ending anyways.

Originally posted by kotorfan
What do you mean Vader kicked Starkiller's ass? Rather, Starkiller kicked the Emperor's and Vader's asses.

In the book and the game. Canon ending anyways.

Faunus was calling Starkiller a competent swordsman who kicked Vader's ass. I think.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
He is able to fight and kill Dooku and Cin Drallig.Yeah, with the rage, which is what he needed to take Ventress, too.

The duel closest to their respective peaks had Skywalker getting humiliated until he snapped.

Which isn't remotely the same. This is the fourth time I'm saying this now, LS. Show me any scenario that depicts Vader growing stronger as the fight progresses. Go ahead.

Being able to use acquired power is not the same as Anakin being able to draw on his peerless potential.

Nothing compensates for that in a duel, LS.

His only other creation was Maul, so this is a given.

This is arguably one of the worst arguments I've ever seen you make, and it also happens to be completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. We're discussing a duel, not the overall merits of each respective character. Again, I refer you to my initial post on the matter:

Such as...?

When any of them are remotely comparable to Kit Fisto, Obi-wan, or Ventress, you let me know.

At which point he flees, kills the Jedi with the blade, deactivates most of the other lightsabers, and gets punked to the point that he has to stall by pretending to surrender while the others debate what to do with him. Then, he goes down again at the end when the three surviving Jedi Masters completely overwhelm him with the Force.

Again, not his best showing. His mission to Kashyyyk in RoDV is much better, simply because he actually wins, and under his own power.

Hurray for relevance.

You're indulging yourself in kotor3 and Truculent-class filler.

Very few of whom were comparable duelists to Ventress, and the two that were - Starkiller and Maul - were basically too much for him to handle. The former was simply better than him in every way, and the latter overwhelmed him with, you guessed it, Jar'Kai.

Granted. But not nearly enough to compensate fully for what he lost at Mustafar.

Go find where I said it would be "easy."

I won't tolerate you misconstruing my argument. This will probably be my last post on the matter, because the idea of a relatively obscure and unpopular character being good seems like a difficult concept for you to grasp.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Faunus was calling Starkiller a competent swordsman who kicked Vader's ass. I think. Yep.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, they don't, any more than Jar'Kai goes 'hand in hand' with Niman. Anakin also, you'll notice, only assumes it against Dooku to fool him, as noted on the ROTS novelization. Shien is derived from Djem So, but Djem So is almost different entirely and that is Anakin's true strength.

No, it isn't almost different entirely. Also, don't change your statement. You said he never used it and he actually used it frequently before changing. He didn't only use it to fool Dooku. Ridiculous.



That's my whole point. Even before his wounds, he had "unlimited potential" as a Sith Lord. Why did that stop after his wounds? What made him less powerful as a duelist and a Sith Lord?

Well, I suppose losing all four limbs does the trick? He has clearly lost finesse, mobility and cannot perform certain lightsaber maneuvers. Look at the pattern and manner he fights with in the original trilogy and then look at him in the previous trilogy.

And yes, he was taken advantage of. These Jedi are suddenly skilled?

Yes, killed with the force. Not a lightsaber. Do you know why?




I understand but my problem is that you made it sound like he owned. He didn't. Also, he did not show extensive maneuverability in Purge like you claim. It's a lie like what you said about Shien.



I included that as a joke. Take this seriously, though:

All of these unknown masters and knights can do this to Vader but a trained Sith Assassin cannot?


And? Why should someone of such skill get "somewhat distracted" like that? He was at their mercy at one point. Did you not read the comic? They had opportunities to kill him but they needed him to fulfill their plan.



Wrong. I don't talk shit, I state facts. You've twisted it to suit your debate. You know how it is.



Watch the original trilogy. It seems you're missing a few things in these movies.

What you're arguing is preposterous. A fully functional and uninjured Anakin could barely defeat Asajj in combat. How is a less flexible, slower version of him defeat her?



The words of Palpatine make everything true now, huh? Good to know! The "Greatest Jedi Killer" had trouble putting down his son who had less than a year of Jedi training. I think this MAY have been due to maneuverability. Also, he wasn't holding back. It's BS. Read the novel and the script. He only began to defend his son when Palpatine began to shock him. I know you'll pull that out of your ass next.

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
No, it isn't almost different entirely. Also, don't change your statement. You said he never used it and he actually used it frequently before changing. He didn't only use it to fool Dooku. Ridiculous.
In the context I stated it, I meant that it was NOT his main style as your post implied. His main stance was Djem So.
And to paraphrase the ROTS novel: "Dooku realized the Shii-cho and Shien stances were but a ruse. The boy had become a Djem So specialist, as fine as any Dooku had ever seen."


According to Palpatine, the mental trauma and self loathing.

Such as? And 'lost finesse and mobility?' At what point does he have trouble moving, now?

Look at his fights with any of the numerous beings he turns into tiny flesh colored ribbons as Vader, even when he hasn't even compensated for the suit yet. Notice numerous sources harp on and on about his martial prowess for a reason? Why, exactly, did none of Palpatine's powerful and power hungry servants as Sedriss, Cronal, Jerec and many others simply kill the slow, immobile Vader? Let's think, now.

Every last one of them was a war veteran, Tsui Choi was apparently considered for the Jedi Council, Ma'Kis was a former Morgukai described as 'unstoppable' in combat...and one of them at least was a survivor of Geonosis and all were good enough to survive Order 66.
Yeah. That says skill

Actually, he grabbed her and broke her neck.
Vader didn't use the Force there.




If you're going to be this utterly anal, then yes I was wrong. He had a knowledge of Shien. It was not, however, his main form, or anything close to it.
And yes, while Vader was being hemmed in on all sides by quite a few Jedi, he was not only fending them all off, he'd killed two of them.



1. Ventress is not a Sith Assassin. She is a Dark Jedi as well as an assassin to boot.
2. One Dark Jedi vs. numerous Jedi masters all at once, one of whom is armed with a Cortosis sword? Unless Ventress has a weapon for the sole purpose of deactivating a saber and a bunch of buddies to take advantage of this, what will she do in the same situation?


I'll say this as you clearly have NEVER READ THE COMIC
He was 'somewhat distracted' because he needed to disarm Shadday and break her neck. He was killing an opponent and had just lost his weapon.
And Vader 'surrendered' only to provoke them to fight amongst themselves


Yeah, there was no fact twisting from you at all.
Yeah, bullshit.



Question still applies, kiddles.

If by 'barely defeat' you mean 'Anakin using the Dark Side utterly crushed her' and this is an Anakin who became skilled enough to defeat DOOKU, someone so far above Asajj's level, trying to compare them is laughable.
Not only did Vader compensate for his damage, but has demonstrated extreme levels of skill, speed and ability that...yes, he could take Asajj



Oh, surely this had nothing to do with all the conflict in him and not wanting to hurt his, you know. SON.

Strange how you forget Vader's mind is in utter conflict and Luke even says he feels the conflict in him. And let's not forget Luke's potential is comparable to Anakin's and that by giving in to his rage, he's unleashing a lot against his dad.

And having read the novel and the script? Funny how you get so snappish and whiny all of a sudden

OH, and you THINK it may have been due to maneuverability? Pardon me if I don't give a damn what you think. Prove up or shut up.

As I pointed out, several times, Vader in the EU has demonstrated skill and ability that show he amply compensated for his loss. He wasn't weak, or unskilled in the slightest and if you think he was, you're ignoring all the evidence from the EU that smacks your argument in its ass.

Oh, I trust Palpatine on the matters of assessments of Dark Jedi that work for him, by the by.

I've reported you. I have a reply ready when you decide not to be rude and tell others to "shut up."

When you learn how to debate without allowing your emotions to control you, PM me and I'll be glad to provide a stable rebuttal.

I'm sorry. I must have figured you for something other than a whiny, dishonest troll.

You have my sincerest apologies, the respect I had shown for you initially will end.

OMFG...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm sorry. I must have figured you for something other than a whiny, dishonest troll.

You have my sincerest apologies, the respect I had shown for you initially will end.

So I wasn't crazy.

Originally posted by Publius II
OMFG...

Hm?

Internet people frustrate me.

The "Can you handle the Truth?" thread in the Religion forum, "Prime vs. Kong" in the Movie Versus forum, whatever I get into with DS next... it's bad for my health.

Gosh ppl. Not to be an as$ or offend anyone here, but why do debates always end like this? It gets pretty annoying after awhile. If u loose, its ok. its just a freakin debate. and its common courtesy to be polite and not to tell people to "shut up"

I said 'prove up for shut up.' There's a difference

Originally posted by kotorfan
Gosh ppl. Not to be an as$ or offend anyone here, but why do debates always end like this? It gets pretty annoying after awhile. If u loose, its ok. its just a freakin debate. and its common courtesy to be polite and not to tell people to "shut up" Some of us don't like dealing with the dense, especially when they reward our patience and respect with more... density(?).

i thought u said Prove up, or Shut up

?Originally posted by Lightsnake
I said 'prove up for shut up.' There's a difference

thats what i mean

or rather thats what I don't get

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
I've reported you. I have a reply ready when you decide not to be rude and tell others to "shut up."

When you learn how to debate without allowing your emotions to control you, PM me and I'll be glad to provide a stable rebuttal.

Your response to Lightsnake at the top of this page was littered with sarcasm and hostile statements and assumptions that he would "pull out of his ass."

I think I'm going to report you. If Lightsnake, who is a respected and legendary member in these parts, doesn't reserve the right to throw out a casual "shut up" or barb, then you certainly don't.

Originally posted by kotorfan
thats what i mean

or rather thats what I don't get What about it don't you get?

Originally posted by Publius II
What about it don't you get?

For him, I believe he's unfamiliar with the entire concept of proof.

"prove up for shut up"

i thought it was prove up or shut up

then he said prove up for shut up and theres a difference, so ya.

He probably meant Prove up or shut up. but its slightly confusing

most likely a typo

Obviously a typo...

Originally posted by Publius II
Yeah, with the rage, which is what he needed to take Ventress, too.
In the raid on the Jedi temple, was he giving in to 'the rage' like he was with Dooku, though? Anakin was ALREADY a monumentally powerful Jedi before his fall

To be fair here, Faunus, they played a game of cat and mouse. Asajj wasn't dominating them-they had not fully engaged until Anakin heard her threaten to murder Padme

Alright, in that context, no, I'll fully admit I misunderstood. My point is, however, that Vader's command of the force and his own power exceeds Anakin's

Yes, I realize

Vader has consistently shown that he had hold his own against numerous opponents, many of whom who should apparently best him in speed and ability. Starkiller needed to rely on tactics to get the better of him rather than sheer saber skill, Vader made short work of a traitorous Emperor's Hand...I mean, seriously, the guy's something.

I hope we're not going to argue that Ventress is superior to Maul. Maul, who decimates an entire army of the galaxy's finest killers without a scratch or takes down the Jedi Order's battlemaster...
And Palpatine did create a lot of things. Byss was his personal little laboratory and he did have a passion for alchemy.

My point here is, if Ventress was to the level of people like Vader, even in the suit, very likely she wouldn't have been seen as a disposable pawn who Dooku casually ordered SHOT in Obsession.

His battles against Sa Cuis and Sheyvan-both Emperor's Hands, against Trachta's plot to kill him, against the Dark Woman, his striking down Ma'Kis like it was nothing when Ma'Kis was first mentioned, he was called a fusion of the abilities of Morgukai and Jedi and called 'unstoppable,' recognized as a threat enough to put a direct price on his head by Palpatine....and he doesn't do too shabbily against Celeste Morne or her Rakghouls, I've heard. Also, doesn't he kill a few Jedi in Rise of Darth Vader as well?

Vader was consistently sent on life threatening and dangerous missions. He had this habit to come through

They're not. However, I'm saying it speaks to Vader's abilities here. Vader was named by Palpatine as the greatest Jedi killer in history. He mentions Ventress in the same section. As I told Forum Ninja, I put some stock in Palpaitne's assessment of Darksiders working under him

Well, they are pelting him with rocks rather viciously, that's a bit difficult to defend from, when one enemy is a council level master assisted by two other masters and Vader is still fresh in the suit. When it came to a saber, however? Without Shadday having prepared the Cortosis Blade, it's doubtful Vader would've been in that trouble.

I'm afraid my experience of RoDV is limited to what I've searched briefly. I do know he kills several Jedi there, but I was wary of using it as a source

I'm merely indicating Vader's prowess and ability there

Maul outclasses Ventress in every way, it's not even a contest there. Starkiller does as well. And for Starkiller, from the game, Vader was a pretty tough opponent and Starkiller wins by distracting him with a thrown pillar and then blasting him when he moves to throw it aside, then seizing advantage. He doesn't best him in straight up saber combat.
And Maul is another example of environment coming into play, plus skill. Maul's a beast with a saber and in the end, Vader does still win. Unconventionally, yes.

Enough to make sure Ventress, by virtue of being maneuverable and fast won't overwhelm him there. He's most certainly more skilled than she is as a fighter, he's remarkably talented, he's demonstrated some exemplary speed and power at times...he's a monster

That might've been my irritation from Forum Ninja

Faunus, come off it, there's a difference between me not thinking Ventress is good-because I most definitely think she is. The fact she took on three Jedi at once and it took MACE WINDU to chase her off, that she killed two masters together, that she's consistently given Obi-wan a good fight, nevermind what she's shown in Clone Wars- and me not thinking she can best Vader in a sword duel.

Don't misconstrue my argument, either. I dislike Ventress's character, but she's a talent for certain. I imply do not think she would take Vader in a saber fight.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In the raid on the Jedi temple, was he giving in to 'the rage' like he was with Dooku, though?

Anakin was ALREADY a monumentally powerful Jedi before his fallHe appears to have been in the same mindset there as he was against Dooku, yes. How else, aside from PIS, do you explain the disparity in his showings? At one point in LoE (I think) he can't even get past a durasteel door without the clones planting explosive charges; in the Temple, he topples, lifts, and hurls a several dozen-meter stone statue.

That was the first thing she did; whip out the holodisc she intercepted, break it, and threaten to kill her. That's why Anakin started the duel by screaming "First I'll kill you!"

That's a given. However, it doesn't make up for what he's lost in the confines of a duel.

Those two feats alone hardly put Maul above Ventress, but I won't argue this.

You're still missing the point. Vader being "his greatest creation" has no bearing on his overall ability as a duelist.

You're judging value based on swordsmanship, now?

I sincerely hope that's not why you think Vader, Bulq, or Grievous were important.

None of those people should have been threats to him to begin with, and they certainly wouldn't have been able to take Ventress in a duel.

Several, actually. After being wounded by a relatively unimpressive Knight early on in the book, he regains composure and "grace" and eventually maims and slaughters several Padawans and Knights in a very cool scene, then takes on Roan Shryne, a "master of the sword."

Of course, he ends up defeating Shryne with the Force, and Shryne couldn't even telekinetically move a fallen super battle droid... but I digress.

You can hardly hold it against them for being comparatively prepared, considering he walked right into an ambush.

I beg to differ. While I most definitely won't argue that she is the superior technical duelist or is remotely as conditioned and well-trained, he would have a very difficult time with her.

Not as a swordsman. Sixteen years after RotS, Shaak Ti was a better duelist than he was.

The Databank notes that she almost "perfected" her dual-bladed style, so the disparity between the two as far as technical skill goes cannot possibly be significant enough to make or break the fight. She is significantly faster and more agile than he is, she was almost too much for Anakin near his peak to handle - even with his rage being in play from the beginning of the fight - and quickly defeated one of the greatest swordsmen the Order had ever produced when she was still a relative neophyte. I still think it could go either way, but I'm definitely favoring her here.

Sorry about that. I'm usually not one to let other people get to me, but JesusIsAlive in the Religion forum and Robtard and Girth in the Movies Versus forum really got on my nerves.

I'm not.

I still have no idea why.

In hindsight, this was a very disjointed rebuttal. I don't think I be debating anymore today...

Ventress obviously isn't as buff or as fast as maul, and Vader took Maul's clone (with a little difficulty), and defeated Maul. I would put Maul pretty far above Ventress. And Vader's command of the Force surpasses Ventress's by alot.
Ventress wouldn't be able to contend with Vader's brute physial strength, or unorthodox style. (not sure If I spelled that correctly.)

Maul is not above Ventress.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm sorry. I must have figured you for something other than a whiny, dishonest troll.

You have my sincerest apologies, the respect I had shown for you initially will end.

No, you're being outrageous. I didn't troll you. Did I utilize my psychic powers and predict you were going to reply to me so I could troll you? My first post in this thread addressed the topic at hand. What aren't you getting? If you cannot debate without allowing your emotions to control you, I simply refuse to even discuss things with you.

There's a difference between being an aggressive debater and outright bashing someone. Here is the deal, alright? You've insulted me and I did not appreciate it. Despite that, I'm just going to take it as a quick jab. You may have had a bad day or something. Regardless, I forgive you. I will reply to your debate soundly and hope this event does not occur a second time in the future.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here. I ask you not to abuse that. Please.



Yes, he had. I agree. How does this prove he was not a Shien practitioner? If he used it as a ruse, he has knowledge of it. He had become a Djem So form user. I don't disagree. What do think he utilized before this?

Also, this is what bothers me the most. It's clear you meant he never used Shien. Not once. Should I regurgitate the post?



What part of your own mistake arent you understanding, Lightsnake? Let's say for arguments sake that you're right and he only did use it as a ruse that one time. This means he did use it. That eliminates "never", okay?



I doubt that's all. Burning at the bottom of a scolding hot hill with your limbs gone might halter lightsaber speed and maneuverability. Also, why do you continue to mention Palpatine? He's manipulative and is a liar. Am I suppose to believe everything he says? I'm sure that's not all that damaged his physical performance with a lightsaber. Come on.




I never said he had trouble moving. If anything, you can use rhetoric quite well, Lightsnake. Due to his cybernetic change and loss of organic limbs, he cannot do the maneuvers he could before. There is a noticeable change. He cannot contort himself to the lengths he could when he was anatomically full. For example, he can spin his lightsaber around, perform extensive twists and is considerably faster.

Observe:

Anakin Skywalker fighting before
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

After, as Darth Vader
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjCyZ2P9bCA&feature=related
What part of this isn't sticking? He clearly cannot do things he could do before. This shortens his ability as a duelist. Simple. Even using "Purge" as an example, you stated earlier this showed his maneuverability. No, it didn't. He didn't even fight with a lightsaber for more than a few seconds.




Why didn't they just kill him? He's powerful. No one is denying his power. This is what you're missing. He's simply not an accomplished duelist like he was in the PT. Also, I'm sure those servants fear his force powers as well. Or let me guess, to suit your argument, they must just be shivering at his lightsaber skills. Lol.



Surviving Order 66 doesn't make you uber with skill. A quick example would be Maris Brood, apprentice to Shaak Ti. Apparently, Morgukai was unstoppable considering Vader could not disable him with a 'saber. Vader did dispose of them and he is skilled. This does not prove anything when it comes to lightsaber combat. He had to turn their sabers off. He probably knew he'd lose in a duel. Hell, even in force, the three masters overpowered him near the end. And yes, he did surrender. He needed to buy time. Sad.




My apologies. I thought he used the force to do that. Damn, that mother has some deadly hands.





Where in Christs name did I say that? Thank you for admitting that. I appreciate it. I don't understand why you didn't in the first place. People make mistakes. Pushing your pride and pretending you didn't just makes you look arrogant.



That's nice. We were discussing lightsaber speed and maneuverability. If he didn't kill those two Jedi with a lightsaber or barely used it in the fight, how is it relevant?




Actually, she is a Dark Acolyte, to be specific. I usually refer to her as a Sith due to her nature and training under Dooku. Sorry for that. She is similar to a Sith. Dooku points this out as well:
"A bold claim, but you are not Sith. You wear the trappings of the Sith, you fight like the Sith, but this can be imitated, however. You lack a vital quality found in all Sith. Sith have no fear, and I sense much fear in you."

She's a fraud. Lol.



Oh no! One Jedi is armed with a sword?! Do you remember the incident on Rattatak in the Cauldron? She fought several seasoned aliens and gladiators armed with all sorts of weaponry. I'm almost guaranteeing she'd last longer in lightsaber combat against these masters than Vader would, simply due to the fact that she is not a walking tin can.

I own Purge. What the hell are you going on about? If he was pretending to surrender, he was at their mercy. If they just decided to strike him down, he'd be done with. Don't worry about it. His troopers came and saved the day.

I read the comic. He was somewhat distracted because he was cornered and had his lightsaber disabled. He used the force because he could not overwhelm her with lightsaber skill. Have you LOOKED at the illustrations in the comic instead of just examining text?




Er, no. I made a few mistakes that I've taken responsibility for. You're still distorting the entirety of the debate.





I don't know how many different ways I need to answer it before you understand or how much things I need to show you.




Yes, he did. What does that have to do with cybernetic Vader fighting Ventress? Oh gee, Obi Wan took down Anakin after he defeated Dooku and Asajj defeated Obi Wan. Comparing them is laughable. No one is laughing at failing logic, Lightsnake.

Just because Jedi Knight Anakin can defeat Dooku doesn't mean that Ventress cannot defeat cybernetic Vader. Yes, he has demonstrated skill with the force and even considerable skill with a lightsaber. Vader would defeat her generally. In a lightsaber duel? No. Absolutely not.




Well, I agree. People don't normally wish to hurt their own son. Unfortunately, we're discussing a Sith Lord, not Mother Teresa. He had no emotions towards his son prior to that moment. Of course, he eventually came through and saved his life but he tore his SONS hand off with ease and asked him to join or else he'd kebab him with a 'saber.





I agree with you. I totally understand. After Vader had threatened his sister, he totally geared into batshit Jedi mode. That's not the point. Vader genuinely attempted to defend himself and disarm Luke. He was unable to. He did not have the skill to. His son had defeated him. He did not hold back. It says that NOWHERE despite the eternal conflict. No evidence suggests he was holding back. I could understand this being a possibility on ROTJ but not on ESB. Luke even had an open opportunity to nick his father on his arm. This is when Vader flipped his lid.

I'm not trying to completely demean Vader's skill in general here. He is a considerably powerful force user. There is no doubt about that. From what I've seen, his swordplay has deteriorated after the Mustafar incident. This is clear in his mobility. Look at the prequel trilogy.



You have? Oh really?

Luke ignites his lightsaber and screams in anger, rushing at his father
with a frenzy we have not seen before. Sparks fly as Luke and Vader
fight in the cramped area. Luke's hatred forces Vader to retreat out of
the low area and across a bridge overlooking a vast elevator shaft.
Each stroke of Luke's sword drives his father further toward defeat.

The Dark Lord is knocked to his knees, and as he raises his sword to
block another onslaught, Luke slashes Vader's right hand off at the
wrist, causing metal and electronic parts to fly from the mechanical
stump. Vader's sword clatters uselessly away, over the
edge of the platform and into the bottomless shaft below. Luke moves
over Vader and holds the blade of his sword to the Dark Lord's throat.
The Emperor watches with uncontrollable, pleased agitation.

Source: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Return-of-the-Jedi.html

Speaking of evidence, where does it suggest that Vader was holding back before he had turned against Palpatine? Oh wait. Luke, the Jedi with less than a year of training, thought he sensed that his father had a little slice of good in him. Is this why Vader used the force to find information about his sister to use against him? In an effort to turn him to the dark side? You beg me for evidence but cannot provide any yourself? Do not practice such bold hypocrisy, Lightsnake. It will not go by unnoticed.



Prove? What is there to prove? In the EU material and in the films, It is obvious his skill has deteriorated after the injury. Get with reality.



The evidence? Are you talking of events that you twisted? Just like Vader shows his maneuverability (You said that) in Purge when he lost the short lightsaber duel that he had?



Yes, I do as well. He sure counted on getting put into a generator shaft.

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
No, you're being outrageous. I didn't troll you. Did I utilize my psychic powers and predict you were going to reply to me so I could troll you? My first post in this thread addressed the topic at hand. What aren't you getting? If you cannot debate without allowing your emotions to control you, I simply refuse to even discuss things with you.
Doesn't take that much effort to troll, so cut the crap. If you're going to whine and moan like this, you're not worth my time, especially when you've been nothing but a sarcastic little brat your entire time here


Hey, here's me not caring and let me make this clear:
I'm responding because I feel letting such a shitty, pathetic argument from you going unanswered would be nothing short of a failure on my part. Only this time, I am extending you no respect or courtesy. You don't like it? Tough.

he was using two minor stances to fool Dooku. He had become, since Geonosis a Djem So practioner. At what point in the Clone Wars, is he noted to not use Djem So as his main form? That was where his talent lay.

Should I explain what I meant by it again? Or are you going to be the dishonest child we all know you to be?



What part of 'You were wrong over him using Shien as his main stance' doesn't register either? You implied it was his main form and he couldn't use it effectively as Vader



So...in his own personal Holocron and notes, Palpatine was lying about his apprentice's ability? Is Palpatine such an amazing liar, he felt the need to lie to himself in his own journals now?
Especially when sources say Vader compensated for his short comings and apparently became even more proficient when he honed his skills in the Purge. Want me to post the quote again? Want To read Gideon's post?




Such as? How does being placed in the cyborg body hinder his Djem So? If anything, it enhances it, given Vader focuses on quick, fast strikes.
What part of 'precision and skill being a massive part of Vader' do you not understand?

'Contort himself?' To what purpose? And 'spin his saber around?' If by 'totally useless maneuver' probably not. On the other hand, we've seen him spin it with one hand before. and again, we've seen extensive speed from Vader, why do I hold the evidence higher than your useless opinion?

You're aware in the EU, we see a great deal of showings from Vader, right? And as Vader, he useless far less extraneous and useless moves and goes right for a kill with his style? I mean, is this escaping you at all? Or did you miss the books where we see Vader's prowess?
No, don't answer. You'll only lie about it.



So, all the Jedi were just attacking for a few seconds? Before any other Jedi is able to react, he impales one, slices her hand off, withdraws the blade and meets the others.
Sorry, kiddo. That's speed. Defending oneself against multiple opponents? That's also skill and speed at work and requires maneuverability.




Strange how he seems to prefer the saber duel when he kills his opponents. He engaged Sheyvan, a powerful Emperor's Hand in one.

And as the EU materials directly state:
You are wrong. What is hard about this? Why do you refuse to yield your position when materials directly state Vader's exceptional dueling abilities? Is it pride? What the hell do you have to be proud of?
Fightsaber describes Vader's immense dueling ability. The Force Unleashed Novel nots his mastery and comments in addition to Form V, he also utilized Makashi and Juyo. Dark Lord, the rise of Darth Vader, has him butcher several Jedi when he finds his game. He starts off as clumsy and stiff in the suit. This changes almost in the first month.
What part of this is difficult for you?

Considering he KILLED several of them with his saber skills when they went after him without ever utilizing the Force? The only laughter isn't with you, it's at you



Prove how she survived, thank you. Some survived by virtue of being nowhere NEAR Clone Troopers. Ma'Kis, on the other hand, like others, had to fight his way out.


Ok, now we all KNOW you're a liar.
Ma'kis was said to be unstoppable in combat and was among the greatest of the Morgukai before becoming a Jedi, combining both skills to become a feared master and one so dangerous, he was one of the Jedi survivors personally wanted by the Empire. Vader cut him down without effort, while hampered in the suit before he compensated for it on Kashyyyk, while outnumbered. And he did it BEFORE Shadday brought the Cortosis blade in.



Yes, being slow and clunky, he was able to disarm her, seize her by the neck and snap it.
One would think a Jedi master could avoid this if he was so slow





"He couldn't use Shien anymore! He was so much worse!"
This'd be so crippling if Shien and not Djem So was his main form...

Someone hasn't read Purge, considering he KILLS SIAN AND MA'KIS with...what's that glowing red thing in his hands?!



Yeah, she's not a Sith. one can usually tell if they read stuff with her in it



What part of 'cortosis' escaped you, now? Yes, the Jedi is armed with a sword. A sword that, once struck, given Vader meant to slice through it-and her, INSTANTLY DEACTIVATES YOUR ****ING LIGHTSABER.
She meant to render him helpless so the other five Jedi knights and masters would finish him off on the spot. I'll say it again, since you have trouble processing information:
The sword. Deactivates. Lightsabers. It makes them totally useless for minutes. How would she 'do better' than Vader when hemmed in from all sides by battle hardened warriors, now?

You turn ignorance into an art form.


Considering you have no idea WTF happens in it, why should I believe you?
He was pretending to surrender so they would fight amongst themselves, whereupon he got Bultar killed, killed Koffi Arana and got Bultar's saber while his own was useless.

Oh, no, Vader uses intelligent tactics when he's outnumbered.

When did he 'use the Force' now? He. snapped. Shadday's neck with his HAND. The one time he used the force was preventing Tsui Choi from escaping so she'd be gunned down.
And when couldn't he 'overwhelm her with saber skill?' I'll say it for the last time. His saber was deactivated. It's hard to fight with a saber when the damn thing won't turn on.




Liar.





Liar.




Golly gee, could it have anything with the quote saying that Vader's technical skill being above his younger incarnation, Mr. Peabody? The technical skill that was killing Ventress''s betters?
Hmmm...Oh, and OBi-wan kind of taught Anakin to fight and knew every move he made inside and out. And IObi-wan has taken Ventress before. In fact, what fights did Ventress win against Obi-wan while he was fresh, exactly? Most often, Obi-wan was trying to redeem her, or nowhere near his best. The first time they fought, His skull had been cracked open by Durge and he was barely able to stand from the poison gas around them. Second time, there was hardly contact between them. Third time, Obi-wan was escaping because he'd been tied up and tortured for a while.
I haven't read Cestus Deception, so please do inform me of this time


Yes, absolutely yes, and you're doing a horrible job proving your case.




The Sith Lord who desperately wants his son on his side, missed that?

Uhhh, he took Luke's hand years back and only meant to incapacitate him so he would join Vader there and reveal to him the truth. Vader always loved Luke and all points to that. Luke even says he feels the conflict





he was notably not trying to kill Luke. Luke was borderline unstoppable there to anyone just trying to disarm him.

Despite Vader's emotional turmoil, the desire to have Luke join him, despite Luke throwing himself into the Dark Side just as surely as Anakin did against Dooku...
Yeah, this is all totally a fair representation to use to bash Vader with.
Yeha, you're SO honest

And as I've provided several times, the sources say you're wrong.
Or just a liar.




How does any of that contradict what I said or support your points? ANY of it? It's describing the action, we all know what happens


"I feel the good in you, the conflict!"
I really can't believe Ninja here is distorting a huge part of Star Wars for his argument here

Because taunting someone is really an indication that all of the good they sensed about you is wrong.
Why do you think Vader turned on Palpatine in the end? Why the hell do you think Vader's DYING WORDS were 'you were right.'

This is just sad and hilarious.



"I say so! I DO! I'M SMART! I AM!"
Sorry, kiddo. Evidence is firmly against you from the EU. Need I cover the bit where Vader massacres a squad of stormies and is on their commander before he can RUN TO THE DOOR?



I've answered this stupidity


You know what's amusing? You using something haveing nothing to do with Palpatine's assessments of his subordinate's abilities. He names Vader the most skilled and greatest Jedi Killer of all time.

Given Palpatine knows about Ventress and DERIDES HER IN THE SAME SECTION, what does that tell you? Is Palpatine lying to himself about his subordinates' abilities?

Liar Liar.. lol u sound like Anakin

Tsui Choi's a guy.

I think.

I think they've changed Choi's gender like three times.

This post is epic in its stupidity; what a lousy argument. Comparing the speeds of characters relative to the prequel or original trilogies is stupid. Palpatine, who is established through various supplement sources as being the most powerful and deadliest Lord of the Sith in galactic history, squares off against four Jedi Masters in his office during the events of Revenge of the Sith. Various visual guides and canon entires distribute accolades to all four swordsmen, the consensus being that they were all "celebrated swordsmen" and among the greatest bladesbeings in history. Yet if one were to gauge strictly the movie, one would likely not conclude as much, given that the movie depicts four Jedi and a Sith Lord with surprisingly slow reactions and acting like, quite frankly, old men banging one another with sticks.

I don't disagree with your premise, but using strict movie interpretations without supplement or corroboration is pointless and asinine.



Canon (specifically, Skywalker himself) disagrees.

During the events of the Courtship of Princess Leia, Skywalker is attacked by a powerful Nightsister by the name of Gethzerion. During the assault, he is overpowered and tortured, where he muses that "this is what it would have been like if Vader had tried to kill me."

Skywalker seems to be under the impression that his father never really tried to kill him within the context of a duel.



While Palpatine's statements should arouse suspicion on most topics, his beliefs on Vader's status post-Mustafar were thoughts communicated during Rise of Darth Vader. He was not telling or censoring anything, unless you believe that Palpatine was trying to deceive the reader through manipulating the omniscient narrator.

On the whole of it, your sarcasm, juvenile demands, and own jabs reveal you to be a hypocrite, Forum Ninja, who (when losing a debate) will try to put emphasis on etiquette as misdirection and then report those who fail to cooperate (even though you're acting like a bit of an ass yourself).

That doesn't fly. You're going on ignore and I can guarentee that if this keeps up, I won't be the only one who casts aside your little comments and moves onto the next troll in line.

Holy crap, this guy is the GREATEST liar ever. He's so good, he even fools the readers.

yeah Palpatine probably didn't really die. He's just floating around, waiting for the Darth Revan+Bane+Ajunta Pall combined talisman which allows him to rule the Earth by controlling the autors of the books. Then he becomes immortal and vader gets pissed in the force, appears in spirit form and destroys palpy with his limitless power.

Maybe I didn't like him because I saw the similarities. Man, do I look that bad when I start struggling?

Worse, because we have high expectations.

Need I remind you of the "Zannah is a smart fighter because she kills Bane" fiasco?

Originally posted by Publius II
Worse, because we have high expectations.

Need I remind you of the "Zannah is a smart fighter because she kills Bane" fiasco?

That was just a bad day. A very bad day. And no you do not need to remind me. At all. I meant, do I look that bad when I go all "GRAMMAR NAZI" (and then usually make an equally stupid mistake) as this guy does.

Gideon spelled "guarantee" wrong. *wins*

Edit: Also, the next troll in line is apparently me.

I demand to be dealt with!

To be fair, Zannah probably is going to kill Bane. The set up at the end of Rule of Two all but sealed that

I realize. I was making fun of his ineptitudemomentary lapse of judgement.

Originally posted by Publius II
I realize. I was making fun of his ineptitudemomentary lapse of judgement.

Jerk.

Troll.

Sock.

No, I never said and isn't mine, and you faked . So you fail, and I call you a sock, and you're a troll, and I win because my cheap entertainment is too... cheap... for you to give up.

Troll.

Originally posted by Publius II
No, I never said and isn't mine, and you faked . So you fail, and I call you a sock, and you're a troll, and I win because my cheap entertainment is too... cheap... for you to give up.

Troll.

That logic is flawless. I cannot argue any more. You have bested me sir.

Originally posted by Publius II
No, I never said and isn't mine, and you faked . So you fail, and I call you a sock, and you're a troll, and I win because my cheap entertainment is too... cheap... for you to give up.

Troll.

Awww that's so cute. Still obsessing over me. Way to go Faunus!

Stop trolling.

nein

Ja.

I suppose Vader could defeat Ventress, with the evidence that Lightsnake has provided. I still continue to believe that Vader is not as quick nor as maneuverable as he was before his injuries. This is visible in the EU and in the films. Also, I never said that Vader was a mediocre duelist nor a terrible one. Don't get me wrong. I know he has skill. It's undeniable after viewing the EU material. I never said that.

I'd like to clear up a few things before I move on:


You need to stop worming your way out of this mistake when you already admitted what you did wrong here:




This is a lie as well. I did not troll in this thread. My initial response was relevant to the primary topic of this thread. That's not trolling. Getting enraged during a debate doesn't automatically turn your opponent into a troll. As I said previously, unless I'm claravoient, I didn't troll you.



I never implied it was his main form. I had agreed with you when I stated Djem So was his primary stance AFTER he'd used Shien in his younger days. Go look at my post.



In this post, I acknowledge that he uses it as a ruse and I also state he becomes a Djem So practitioner. Pay closer attention next time.

When it comes to my statements of him being less skilled now than he was, I have lost. You've reminded me that he is not. I simply believe he uses precision and power more now because of the loss of his limbs and his damage. I still believe he is not as quick nor is he as flexible.

Next time we debate, I'd encourage you not to become so angry. I did nothing wrong and even compromised to ignore you insulting me during the beginning of this debate. I have nothing against and you I don't know you well enough to place hate against you. If I seemed to come across as sarcastic or demeaning, I apologize. I can get passionate when I debate.

Ta. For now.

1) She contends for just a little bit before being destroyed
2)No Contest. She Loses immediatly. TFU Vader is Uber in the force
3)Vader wrecks her

hey everyone, this is the first time I've posted in here for who knows how long. I'm not coming back, I was just bored. Anyways, I read the first page and a half of this thread, not the whole thing, so I don't know if this has been stated yet, but in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Dooku states that Grevious is more powerful than Asajj Ventress. It's in the last 2 pages or so.

Can you provide the actual quote?

Sorry but no, because I'm at college and the book is at home.

Originally posted by Publius II
Can you provide the actual quote?
Originally posted by Advent
As well, from Dark Rendezvous - "Possibly Asajj Ventress, his protegee, would be there, clamoring to be made his apprentice. He had a meeting scheduled with the formidable General Grievous, who was even more powerful than Ventress, but a great deal less interesting as a dinner-table conversationalist."

I was hesitant to use that quote because it could have been a reference of relative rank in the Confederacy, but the context -- "apprentice" and "formidable" -- seem to suggest otherwise.

i know im a little late to the game here (ok fine really late)
but i just had to register after reading this.

i personally think that ventress would be blown away by vader.
and just because shes faster doesnt mean vaders helpless, far from it.
vader's not an idiot. all he would have to do to defeat her is force grip her and throw his lightsaber through her heart.
doesnt even need to fight if he did it fast enough which he could easily do

and vader was definitely a better duelist than anakin.
he retained all of his knowledge of how to fight with a lightsaber and as vader he was far more experienced after having fought and defeated a countless number of jedi. sure he's not as fast as he used to be but he doesnt always need speed to defeat his enemies. when he gets tired he relentlessly throws objects at his foes with the force.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
which series? I think you are referring to the new CW cartoons and if you aren't maybe you and others can shed some light on this question.

how cannon is the new CW series? I'd say it beats out the novels and comics and the other CWC series because didn't Lucas have more influence in the new CW series?

Originally posted by Eminence
It's either equal to or right under the movies.

The new "Clone Wars" series should be considered non-canon. There's too much stuff that doesn't fit with what's established.

Best to think of it as an 'Elseworlds.'

Vader would pwn on all three accounts including more. I don't even think that she would even put up much of a fight. She did when he was Anakin and holding back but Vader would be no holds barred.

she would win against vader in sabers due to jar'kai. He is terrible at defending against it as shown with his fight against maul.

Vader. He throws her out of a window and stabs her. He would pwn her in force, but her Jar'Kai is a problem for him. He would still win........

Originally posted by bane's heart
she would win against vader in sabers due to jar'kai. He is terrible at defending against it as shown with his fight against maul. Ventress isn't darth maul nor is she as skilled as him, so yeah vader wins + the fact that vader as anakin has fought her numerous times already.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Ventress isn't darth maul nor is she as skilled as him, so yeah vader wins + the fact that vader as anakin has fought her numerous times already.


While i agree she doesn't have the skill of maul, she was personally trained by dooku, and was skilled enough to kill dozens of jedi. I see her winning the majority of the time in lightsabers. In the force and all out battle she would get curbstomped.

Skilled enough to kill jedi that vader would have easily tooled. And so what if she was trained by dooku? Vader was trained by sidious so does that make him a demi god? No.


Besides, vader knows her fighting style, he fought with her several times during the clone wars and with vaders new style which is described to be unpredictable, he is going to have an edge against ventress.

what has maul done that makes him more skilled then ventress by the way?

Is there actually a debate going on here? Vader kills Ventress.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
what has maul done that makes him more skilled then ventress by the way? He has been described as one of the deadliest sith apprentices in the entire SW mythos, been stated that his physical body and skills were pushed "beyond the limit".

He also defeated anoon bondara whose saber skills were second to none at that time(including yoda i think) and somewhere it states that maul would have fought alot better and possibly killed both qui gon and obi wan had his stamina been full(he was involved in some fight before the duel).

He was also able to tank force lightning and taking no damage to it and of course, despite vaders remarkable force powers and saber skills, he nearly kills vader in a strict saber duel.

The part with the stamina thing should be verified with someone that has the source material because i only remember members brining it up a while ago.


I think theres one more(unverified but i think i remember it) that he nearly killed sidious in a fit of rage in a strict saber sparring session.

Yeah, he acually almost did kill Sidous, but Sidious wasnt using the force. Only a training saber.

even if vader couldn't kill her with a lightsaber he would eventually kill her with the force. This batlle lasts 3 minutes tops.

Ventress=Jar'Kai, something Vader isnt so good against, as shown in his fight against Maul. He had to STAB himself to kill Maul. Vader=Shien+Djem So, and a whole ****loead of brute strength. He would be able to batter thro-ugh unless she is a master of Jar'Kai. Force, he wins All out, mostly him.

The only battle Ventress has a remote chance in is sabers and I still think Vader would have her there.

Originally posted by Incanus
Ventress=Jar'Kai, something Vader isnt so good against, as shown in his fight against Maul. He had to STAB himself to kill Maul. Vader=Shien+Djem So, and a whole ****loead of brute strength. He would be able to batter thro-ugh unless she is a master of Jar'Kai. Force, he wins All out, mostly him.

Right just that ventress isn't as skilled as darth maul in jar kai and vader would still trash her in a saber duel considering he knows her tectics and she doesn't.

Umm...

proof? You have knowledge about Maul's clone that we do not? Or knowledge that Ventress follows Maul's style exactly and is simply an earlier (and inferior) version of him?

you don't


Quantify nao plz.