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Muhammad Ali (with feats from "The Greatest", "Ali" and his fights which were shown in theatres back in the day as releases) finally is pitted against Bruce Lee, (Feats of the "The dragon" movie and documentaries released at the theatres and anything else in which he has played himself in.)

Scenario A:
Both fighters fight inside the tournament rules of their form.
Last to be sparked out unconcious on the floor wins.

Scenario B:
Both fighters are free to employ any unarmed attack they wish.
To the death.

Oh hell. I'm not even touching this one again. I remember a few years ago. This same thread popped up in the Sports forum and again in the General Discussion forum. I still haven't recovered from the fatigue suffered during those ever-lasting arguments.

I will, however, still stand by my decision...,Bruce Lee.

This will be interesting though because, unlike, the previous Ali Vs Lee threads this is only on Bruce Lees' movie feats. Considering that, it should be easier to persuade people in believing that Lee would rock Ali but im still not touching this one.

A hundred times Bruce Lee

Film or not Bruce Lee would win hands down every single time. Ali may have had the power and the endurance, but Lee's technique and knowledge would have taken down Ali no problem.

"Size matters not..." A great being once said.

A great puppet once said.

Playing devil's advocate in response to that:

Im afraid that just applied to force users using the force and mental attitude. (Not in situations where you are in danger of being destroyed by a 6ft3 220-235 pound proven champion.)

I wasnt saying all Lee's films, but any feats recorded in any theatre released film based on documentary movies and "The Dragon".

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
A great puppet once said.

Playing devil's advocate in response to that:

Im afraid that just applied to force users using the force and mental attitude. (Not in situations where you are in danger of being destroyed by a 6ft3 220-235 pound proven champion.)

I wasnt saying all Lee's films, but any feats recorded in any theatre released film based on documentary movies and "The Dragon".

Indeed.


Size DOES matter.


Since Bruce is the learned MMA fighter, he wins movie world and real world. Hands dizzown an any case. Ali will be one tough mofo to knock out...but kill?...Bruce should be the only one with traiing to actually pull that off.

Unproven MMA fighter, comparatively.

People die in fistfights all the time, and remember that Ali bare knuckle'd only have to catch the much smaller Lee once, maybe twice and its all over.

Unless you can prove that Lee took blows from men of Ali's size/speed, this puts Ali as favorite as with that speed and power, his reach is longer than Lee's leg reach in kicks...

I'd like to see Lee survive an uppercut or straight right hand to the throat, also, for example.

(Keep in mind that there'll be no compliance/choreography in this fight.)

Ali knocks his ****ing head off in real life and otherwise.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Unproven MMA fighter, comparatively.

People die in fistfights all the time, and remember that Ali bare knuckle'd only have to catch the much smaller Lee once, maybe twice and its all over.

Unless you can prove that Lee took blows from men of Ali's size/speed, this puts Ali as favorite as with that speed and power, his reach is longer than Lee's leg reach in kicks...

I'd like to see Lee survive an uppercut or straight right hand to the throat, also, for example.

(Keep in mind that there'll be no compliance/choreography in this fight.)


This is movie versus, really. So you can argue that all day...but you've already done that. We've argued about this tirelessly in that real world thread. Since this is to the death, Lee would win in the real world, too. Does Ali have training on how to kill a person? Does Ali have any MMA training anywhere on level with Bruce?

Since this is movies, Ali gets raped with extreme vengence. When has Ali ever kicked a person off the groun, several feet? (Ali has done that many times in real life, not just movies.)

Boxers these days are signifantly better than Ali. Let's put a tope heavyweight MMA fighter up against a top Boxer. Better yet, let's put a top free style martial artist (he can use any style he likes...) against a top MMA fighter. Compare those. Who would win out of that?


Since I'm fairly sure an MMA fighter is best suited to win any street fight against anyone, that doesn't work too well. However, a free style martial artist may not fair as well against a top notch boxer. Of course, I could be wrong and be really retarded and a Martial Artist would make short work of a boxer....but I find that unlikely.

Bruce Lee will win every single time...


Ali may have stamina and all that, but can Ali block Lee's kicks, I highly doubt it..

Bruce also had great punching power as well which he displayed

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
Bruce Lee will win every single time...


Ali may have stamina and all that, but can Ali block Lee's kicks, I highly doubt it..

Bruce also had great punching power as well which he displayed


Indeed.


From what I understand, boxers get their arses handed to them at freestyle and MMA tournies.

Not a midget versus someone of Ali's size.

But maybe a midget that can break concrete with his head.

Which isn't something all that impressive. Six-year old Muay Thai fighters can do the same thing.

His head will need to be resiliant against the rapid, brain bouncing onslaught of punches that will be constanly on him, I guess.

Movie Bruce Lee took blows from a guy who could bend a big ass steel pole (The Russian in Chinese Connection) . The Russian was no skinny wimp and weighted about has much as Ali. The Dragon took on a whole school of Black Belt bushido karate practicioners and won. The Dragon can leap feet into the air and kill a man with one kick (Chinese Connection). The Dragon can kill a man with one punch (in First of Fury). The Dragon can pick up 2 grown Japanese men and fling them around like rag dolls (Chinese Connection). The Dragon is so fast a Kung Fu master threw a knife at him and Dragon kicked it back into the throwers stomach. Anybody who thinks movie Ali wins has not seen any Bruce Lee movies.

I said "the dragon movie" and any other of those old documenatries, particularly any released at the theatres.

Movies: Lee wins with one flying kick.

Real Life: Ali punches the little man in the face and he goes down.

Thats more like it.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I said "the dragon movie" and any other of those old documenatries, particularly any released at the theatres.

Haha. Sorry dewd, I got excited and jumped the gun.
Lee wins either way, he is much more versatile.

Against the greatest, who is twice his size...?

Ali was pretty versatile too, and Bruce's versatility just means more ways for Bruce to be put violently to sleep...

Ali has size and strength on his side.

Lee has his mastery over his chosen martial arts plus incredible agility.

I definitely have to go with Lee on this. Bruce could jump and dodge most any hit that Ali could dish out.

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
Bruce Lee will win every single time...


Ali may have stamina and all that, but can Ali block Lee's kicks, I highly doubt it..

Bruce also had great punching power as well which he displayed


People seem to forget, also, Bruce Lee trained year round, 5-6 days a week. He didn't train like a boxer but rather, an olympian.

Ali most definitely has great reach on Lee. Alis' size is also something to consider but again, Lee is not only a trained and highly skilled boxer but a master martial artist. Bruce Lees' Jeet Kune kune do shows the type of practical application that Bruce employed in his training. Ali is not trained to counter grapples or the types of attacks that Bruce has at his disposal. Bruce liked to interchange his stances and fighting philosophy on the fly. At any time he could be executing a move from one style while switching stances and countering with a move from another style (MMA). Bruce will know exactly what he needs to do in order to negate Alis' boxing style.

I will admit though, one good shot from Ali and Bruce is down for the count but the door swings both ways, one good shot from Lee and Ali is down.

Bruce Lee.

Ali.

Fact is, Ali has much greater force in his punches, along with size, weight, and reach.

Lee is massively overrated, he is no MMA master, shit, an above-average MMA guy would beat his ass.

Lee will grapple him? Name one grapple he has ever used that you can prove he used other than a poorly executed front headlock.

As for Boxing being a joke in MMA, um, lol? Alot of good MMA fighters incorporate boxing into their style, it is a powerful MMA style, IMO, the only striking style better suited in MMA is Muay Thai/Kickboxing.

In fact, all of those wanked Oriental Martial Arts such as the ones Bruce Lee practices, they are obsolete in MMA.

Although to be honest, this fight is not a stomp. Bruce Lee definately has speed and agility over Ali, and quite possibly is stronger with his style. So it will not be a stomp.

Ken Shamrock in his prime would take both out though. He's 1337.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru




Lee is massively overrated, he is no MMA master, shit, an above-average MMA guy would beat his ass.
. Dude you are kidding right?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Dude you are kidding right?

Sadly he probably isn't. Can't blame him for being ignorant though.

Originally posted by Blinky
Sadly he probably isn't. Can't blame him for being ignorant though. DAMN.......just DAMN......

He's mostly right though.

Whoever said boxing sucks in MMA needs there heads checked. Boxing, along with wrestling, is one of the most widely used and crucial MA's you can learn if you're in an MMA environment. You'd have a better chance in an MMA torunament if you entered knowing ONLY boxing, then if you entered knowing, for example, ONLY Tae-Kwon-Do.

I'm very much right.

The top styles in MMA are Wrestling(All the different variations of it), Boxing, and Kickboxing.

Lee has not done shit to put him on this status as the world's most super 1337 fighter.

Is the fight going to be a striahgt toe-to-toe affair or Lee going to go be allowed to manuever around Ali. Lee's agility and knowledge of stree points on fracture points would have Ali's shins in splinters in the first 3 seconds. Boxers aren't much use if they can't stand.

Lets not forget the 1 Inch Punch.

And size does not matter in movie land. Rocky versus Clubber Land (Mr T), Rocky versus Ivan Dragov (Dolph Longdren), Dutch versus the Predator...the list goes on. Sometimes skill and heart can count for more than size.

"Its not the size of the dog in the fight...its the size of the fight in the dog"

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru


Lee will grapple him? Name one grapple he has ever used that you can prove he used other than a poorly executed front headlock.




Jeet Kune Do

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Ali.

Fact is, Ali has much greater force in his punches, along with size, weight, and reach.

IF Ali had greater force in his punch, it is minimal. However, Ali IS taller, greater reach with his ARMS, weighs more (making it diffcult for Bruce Lee to employ is "knock the person the eff over" moves.)

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Lee is massively overrated, he is no MMA master, shit, an above-average MMA guy would beat his ass.

I think you're a bit confused. MMA is not a fighting style, per se. Rather, it is a rule set of fighting.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Lee will grapple him? Name one grapple he has ever used that you can prove he used other than a poorly executed front headlock.

It's possible. I really don't know.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
As for Boxing being a joke in MMA, um, lol?

This line of thought would be strawman. I did not say boxing was a joke in MMA, I said, "From what I understand, boxers get their arses handed to them at freestyle and MMA tournies."

Do you understand what is indicated there?

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Alot of good MMA fighters incorporate boxing into their style, it is a powerful MMA style, IMO, the only striking style better suited in MMA is Muay Thai/Kickboxing.

You probably mean kickboxing rather than just straight boxing.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Although to be honest, this fight is not a stomp. Bruce Lee definately has speed and agility over Ali, and quite possibly is stronger with his style. So it will not be a stomp.


Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Ken Shamrock in his prime would take both out though. He's 1337.

This, I agree with.

Ali is great, but compared to current top notch boxer, he'd get as arse handed to him. In addition, MMA fighters these days would utterly destroy someone like Ali and Bruce.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
People seem to forget, also, Bruce Lee trained year round, 5-6 days a week. He didn't train like a boxer but rather, an olympian.

Ali most definitely has great reach on Lee. Alis' size is also something to consider but again, Lee is not only a trained and highly skilled boxer but a master martial artist. Bruce Lees' Jeet Kune kune do shows the type of practical application that Bruce employed in his training. Ali is not trained to counter grapples or the types of attacks that Bruce has at his disposal. Bruce liked to interchange his stances and fighting philosophy on the fly. At any time he could be executing a move from one style while switching stances and countering with a move from another style (MMA). Bruce will know exactly what he needs to do in order to negate Alis' boxing style.

I will admit though, one good shot from Ali and Bruce is down for the count but the door swings both ways, one good shot from Lee and Ali is down.

Plus Lee was defeated by an asprin.

Ali is much bigger, faster and more elusive than an asprin.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Plus Lee was defeated by an asprin.





Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ali is much bigger, faster and more elusive than an asprin.

No. We've been over this already. Lee punches much faster than Ali...and with his hands down at his side as the starting position, not at the ready like Ali's fastest punches were measured as. This is fact. We have documented video on both of them punching. Ali is fast, but no where near the speed of Lee.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
1) People seem to forget, also, Bruce Lee trained year round, 5-6 days a week. He didn't train like a boxer but rather, an olympian.

2) Ali most definitely has great reach on Lee. Alis' size is also something to consider but again, Lee is not only a trained and highly skilled boxer but a master martial artist. Bruce Lees' Jeet Kune kune do shows the type of practical application that Bruce employed in his training. Ali is not trained to counter grapples or the types of attacks that Bruce has at his disposal. Bruce liked to interchange his stances and fighting philosophy on the fly. At any time he could be executing a move from one style while switching stances and countering with a move from another style (MMA). 3) Bruce will know exactly what he needs to do in order to negate Alis' boxing style.

I will admit though, one good shot from Ali and Bruce is down for the count but the door swings both ways, one good shot from Lee and Ali is down.

1) People seem to forget the training that Ali used to do.
He trained like an olympian AND beat everybody he fought in the olympics. Did Lee...?

2) Thats speculation about Alis grappling. He controlled and grappled a raging Joe Frazier in the TV studio for example. Fancy having a crack at restraing Joe Frazier...? He was tying up George Foreman all night. WAY bigger and stronger than Lee.
People tend to forget that despite Bruce Lee's training in various forms that his philosophy was to stick to effective practical stuff like a good effective bollock kick if he needed to, because like 80% of flashy "martial arts" arent really reliable in a hot situation on the streets.

3) How will he do that...? (Beyond 'not-showing-for-the-fight', obviously or staying so far outside of Ali's range that he cant actually go in against him..)
Alis Jab would be bouncing Lee's brain around before he has seen it coming. Let alsone him coming in with fast combinations of boxing flurries -Something that all guards in non-boxing-MMA are strangely unable to deal with.- these would rock the much smaller man and he would be destroyed.

Originally posted by dadudemon






No. We've been over this already. Lee punches much faster than Ali...and with his hands down at his side as the starting position, not at the ready like Ali's fastest punches were measured as. This is fact. We have documented video on both of them punching. Ali is fast, but no where near the speed of Lee.

Bags dont hit back. Whereas Alis punches are so fast that they are equal to welterweight speed, (not much slower than fighters in Lees' own boxing weight.) And they travel greater distances in that time, having more impact on the hit.

Here we go again, whimsical Lee Fanboys... Bruce Lee is both a good athlete and a movie star, Ali was one of the worlds best boxing champions who's taken hits from guys three times Lee's size and who were expertly trained in delivering punches made to knock mother****ers out.

Lee's movies are awesome, great entertainment, that.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Bags dont hit back.

Depends on how kinky you want to get.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Whereas Alis punches are so fast that they are equal to welterweight speed, (not much slower than fighters in Lees' own boxing weight.)

I do not deny that Ali was one bad mo fo.


Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
And they travel greater distances in that time, having more impact on the hit.

No, they don't travel greater distances. That measurement Lee did was from his arm at complete rest.

Lee was measured kicking faster than many of Ali's punches. You and I already had this discussion in great detail. We arrived that Lee was faster than Ali. We don't need to go through this again....do we?


Now, punching power, I've got to give it to Ali. Lee had absurdly powerful punches for his size, but I don't think they were greater than Ali's. Is there measurements for those somewhere on the internet? We could do a comparison and arrive at a conclusion. It's possible that I'm mistaken and Lee actually has a more powerful punch than Ali. I am quite certain that my upper body strength is greater than Ali's at his peak, but I probaby can't generate the force that Ali did because I'm not really trained. However, Lee had stronger upperbody strength than I do, can punch rediculously faster than I can, and trained like a madman day in and day out. To think that Lee could have a stronger punch than Ali wouldn't be rediculous at all.

I'm sure Bruceskywalker would agree with me as he does martial arts much more often than I do.



However, we can say with 100% certainty that

Lee is faster.
Ali has greater reach.
Ali is tried and true, harder to knock out.
Ali has more official fighting experience.
Lee has better street fighting experience.
Lee has a stronger upper body.
Lee can kick better.
Lee is better trained in MMA.
Lee has excellent grappling experience.
Ali has the weight advantage.
Ali has height advantage.

Do you agree?

We could edit this list, if you'd like...untl we reach a mutally agreed upon list.



My coworker, 2nd degree Korean Tai Kwon Do black belt (American Tai Kwon Do is rather watered down compared Korean schools), said that Lee's punching power would have to be stronger based on his ability to generate so much power with so little space. This would be his professional opinion, which counts more than mine...so I don't know who to give the stronger punch to. If we could get more professional opinions on this, we could arrive at a better conclusion.

Lee is faster Marginally, at best, in regards to striking.
Ali has greater reach. yes
Ali is tried and true, harder to knock out.yes
Ali has more official fighting experience.yes
Lee has better street fighting experience. this is heresay
Lee has a stronger upper body.doubtful, at least in regards to punching power
Lee can kick better.yes
Lee is better trained in MMA.yes
Lee has excellent grappling experience.untested grappling experience, movies don't count
Ali has the weight advantage.yes
Ali has height advantage.yes

Originally posted by dadudemon
Depends on how kinky you want to get.



I do not deny that Ali was one bad mo fo.




No, they don't travel greater distances. That measurement Lee did was from his arm at complete rest.

Lee was measured kicking faster than many of Ali's punches. You and I already had this discussion in great detail. We arrived that Lee was faster than Ali. We don't need to go through this again....do we?


Now, punching power, I've got to give it to Ali. Lee had absurdly powerful punches for his size, but I don't think they were greater than Ali's. Is there measurements for those somewhere on the internet? We could do a comparison and arrive at a conclusion. It's possible that I'm mistaken and Lee actually has a more powerful punch than Ali. I am quite certain that my upper body strength is greater than Ali's at his peak, but I probaby can't generate the force that Ali did because I'm not really trained. However, Lee had stronger upperbody strength than I do, can punch rediculously faster than I can, and trained like a madman day in and day out. To think that Lee could have a stronger punch than Ali wouldn't be rediculous at all.

I'm sure Bruceskywalker would agree with me as he does martial arts much more often than I do.



However, we can say with 100% certainty that

Lee is faster.
Ali has greater reach.
Ali is tried and true, harder to knock out.
Ali has more official fighting experience.
Lee has better street fighting experience.
Lee has a stronger upper body.
Lee can kick better.
Lee is better trained in MMA.
Lee has excellent grappling experience.
Ali has the weight advantage.
Ali has height advantage.

Do you agree?

We could edit this list, if you'd like...untl we reach a mutally agreed upon list.



My coworker, 2nd degree Korean Tai Kwon Do black belt (American Tai Kwon Do is rather watered down compared Korean schools), said that Lee's punching power would have to be stronger based on his ability to generate so much power with so little space. This would be his professional opinion, which counts more than mine...so I don't know who to give the stronger punch to. If we could get more professional opinions on this, we could arrive at a better conclusion.

Ali. Its simple. He speed and size ensured that he punched bags and opponents with more bag swinging, head spinning force and more regularity than Lee could generate without having to load up like Lee would to generate the same power.

I dont care how at rest he was, Ali's longer reach dictated that his shots travel greater distances due to basic physical mechanics.
Im not talking about running in wioth shots to cover the extra distance its about natural range.

Imagine this scenario.
Both Ali and Lee face each other 2 and a half feet from each other.
Their feet are stuck to the floor and they are rooted to the spot.

Who do you now favor to be able to reach their opponent's head/face...? Y'know what I mean...?

Your friend is talking about economy of movement.
But that wouldnt give Lee superhuman powers.
With all due respect to your buddy, Tai Kwon Do guys shouldnt be taken in matters of punching power, over common boxing knowledge. You put a boxer in a phonebooth with a Tai Kwon Do guy and keep it to punches, the boxer'll be the one walking out concious.

Tai Kwon Do does look great to see performed and I'm fairly certain a black-belt could kick my ass, but there's a reason why it isn't really incorporated into modern MMA styles.

If huge advantages in size and power are nothing to do with the equation, imagine yourself fighting you, then a mini-me version of yourself.

Is there a difference in the outcome in your imagined scenarios...?

There should be.




Originally posted by Robtard
Tai Kwon Do does look great to see performed and I'm fairly certain a black-belt could kick my ass, but there's a reason why it isn't really incorporated into modern MMA styles.


Absolutely, Robtard.
Its not effective enough to be employed against successful fist-merchants.
(The best and most reliable are boxingpunches/elbows)

And if you were well trained in boxing, in given scenario, you'd be odds on to kick the guy's ass all up and down that street..

Sounds logical, but I fight dirty, so a mini-me me would just be that much closer to gunny-sack.

A terrifying prospect right there...!

But as a boxer, you'd back off, allowing the shorter guy to run on to you, taking his nutsack hating ass out with low hooks and uppercuts...
Enabling you walk around for the rest of the day with a real warm sense of smugness.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ali. Its simple. He speed and size ensured that he punched bags and opponents with more bag swinging, head spinning force and more regularity than Lee could generate without having to load up like Lee would to generate the same power.

Did you see that video of Lee knocking around that 75lb bag?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I dont care how at rest he was, Ali's longer reach dictated that his shots travel greater distances due to basic physical mechanics.
Im not talking about running in wioth shots to cover the extra distance its about natural range.

Distance traveled by Lee's punch at rest is much great then Ali's. That's pretty simple. You can measure for yourself, if you doubt. Bring your arms up, step away from an object, similar to what you'd do in a boxing match, bring your arms up in a guarded position, and measure the actual distance between your starting punch position (tip of the fist) and the object you're hitting...you may want to record to see the distance treaveled because your fist may travel slightly left or right from starting position, actually increasing the distance traveled (It's not Euclidean geometry in this scenario because it is the distance the tip of the knuckle travels, not the linear distance between the tip of the knuckle and the target. This is significant because it measures actual distance required to travel due to the differences in how the punches are thrown.

Then do the same with your arms down at your side. You will have to record a video to actually measure where your knuckle goes as you am draw your hand back slightly and move in two seperate arcs of motion due to a pivot at the shoulder and a pivot at the elbow. Not only is the linear distance for the "at rest" punch greater than the boxing guarded position, but the difference between the actual distances traveled by the knuckle is greated at the side, too...adding to the point I made about actual distance traveled. It's even an even greater feat than you realize.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Imagine this scenario.
Both Ali and Lee face each other 2 and a half feet from each other.
Their feet are stuck to the floor and they are rooted to the spot.

Who do you now favor to be able to reach their opponent's head/face...? Y'know what I mean...?

The boxer, obviously. He is taller, and has a longer reach. But what is reality?

Let's make another one, just like yours except in Lee's favor, this time.

Imagine they both stand right in front of each other, right out of each other's pnching range. They can only use their feet. Who is more likely to get the first strike in on the other oppoenats head/face?


Now, here's reality. Lee kicks...a lot. He would never just plant his feet.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Your friend is talking about economy of movement.
But that wouldnt give Lee superhuman powers.

Lee was quite genius. I didn't think much of Jeet Kun Do until I started studying it, more and more. No doubt that he is quite a formidable fighter. I certainly wouldn't want to take a hit to the face from him when he was in his prime. Same goes for Ali. Now, I'm still of the opinion that Ali has the greater punching power, I was just adding the opinion of someone more qualified to judge punching power.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
With all due respect to your buddy, Tai Kwon Do guys shouldnt be taken in matters of punching power, over common boxing knowledge. You put a boxer in a phonebooth with a Tai Kwon Do guy and keep it to punches, the boxer'll be the one walking out concious.

Personally, I don't give much credence to Tai Kwon Do. I think it's mostly lame and an antiquated fighting style. However, from what my coworker says, a fifth degree american black belt wouldn't even make orange in Korea. He said it is much more strenuous and the difference in fighting ability is night and day.


Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
And if you were well trained in boxing, in given scenario, you'd be odds on to kick the guy's ass all up and down that street..

This, I agree with. The punches and kicks from a brown belt, that I sparred with, were weak sauce. True, that he was fast and it looked pretty...but it was worthless, imo.

Ok. In the reversed scenario. Ali still because of the powerful, longer range of legs might have Lee coming up short if from like 3 and a half feet away, at closer range, Lee would be able to get one in, but he will have had to take Ali's Kick first..
If you meant Ali sized Lee and Lee sized Ali, then Lee crucifies Ali.

Yeah I know, Lee'd not be glued in reality it was merely a model for proving ranges.

By the time Lee is in kicking range, being that much smaller than Ali, he will be in Ali's punching range.

Jeet kun Do is formlessness. But incorporated into it are boxing strikes.
But no small guy no matter how hard he punches, could punch as hard as Ali at Ali's size.

And Bruce Lee's smaller frame/physicality would not be built to withstand Sledgehammer blows that would be all over him.

Im glad we are on the same page. But statement conflict has got me all confused:
You say you deferred to someone who knew more about punching power than yourself, yet you assessed brown belt level practitioners on his form as using worthless technique...
If you judged his shit to be less impacting than usual punch standards, then 'he might not have the answers' would have been my first suspicion.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ok. In the reversed scenario. Ali still because of the powerful, longer range of legs might have Lee coming up short if from like 3 and a half feet away, at closer range, Lee would be able to get one in, but he will have had to take Ali's Kick first..
If you meant Ali sized Lee and Lee sized Ali, then Lee crucifies Ali.



You're joking, right?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yeah I know, Lee'd not be glued in reality it was merely a model for proving ranges.

I know, I know. As long as you've got balls, I be bustin' 'em.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
By the time Lee is in kicking range, being that much smaller than Ali, he will be in Ali's punching range.

Proof? If you show me some numbers on this, I'll believe you and stop doubting that reach could be given to Ali. (Because Lee's kicking ability is quite legendary.) From what I would guess, Lee's kicking range should be longer than Ali's punching reach.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Jeet kun Do is formlessness. But incorporated into it are boxing strikes.
But no small guy no matter how hard he punches, could punch as hard as Ali at Ali's size.

I disagree. There are many, these days, at his size and similar weight that can punch much harder than Ali can. There are probably those Lee's size and weight that can punch just as hard as he can. To some martial artist out there, they might call me a complete idiot for even saying such a thing.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
And Bruce Lee's smaller frame/physicality would not be built to withstand Sledgehammer blows that would be all over him.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Im glad we are on the same page. But statement conflict has got me all confused:

We are...for the most part. We disagree on range and punching power for Bruce Lee, apparently.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
You say you deferred to someone who knew more about punching power than yourself, yet you assessed brown belt level practitioners on his form as using worthless technique...

I'm quite the diverse "martial artist" myself. However, I am no where near a Korean level black belt, much less a second degree. If you had the chance to ask a question like this to a second degree black belt from a nice Korean Marital arts school, would you not do it?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
If you judged his shit to be less impacting than usual punch standards, then 'he might not have the answers' would have been my first suspicion.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. My point was dual purposed.

1. To show how useless American Tai Kwon Do in a fight is.
2. To show how shitty American Tai Kwon Do users are.

This brown belt was actually a state tournament winner. They fight to make hits and not knock out. They just want to score points to win, so they don't really practice.

The brown belt and this black belt are two different people. And, no, I haven't had "punching power" training, per se. Since this guy is really big into martial arts and MMA, I figured he could give me a better assessment on the Ali - Lee conversation we were having.

You don't know this person, so he cannot be presented as expert opinion into this discussion. I don't expect you to do that. I quite clearly, before mentioning his opinion on the subject, indicated that I couldn't see Lee having more punching power than Ali. I added his comments as an aside. If you'd like, I could do a video interview and have him present his credents for us. I just called him and left a voicemail. We'll see if he can get back to us.

No that wont be neccessary, I believe you, but the point I was making was that basically its not effective.

As for the guard thing Ali was well know for a very low guard/keeping his hands down..and therefore travels the "From rested position" too. Only with longer reach/ therefore range.

a 74kg bag...? Wow.
See what Ali would does to ones full of sand.
Also look at what Foreman used to do to heavy sand bags..
Bruce wont be able to punch like that. And Ali to took it and beat Foreman.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Jeet Kune Do Was that supposed to refute what I said?

Because the only grapple I have ever seen him do, was a front head-lock, and a poorly executed one at that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
IF Ali had greater force in his punch, it is minimal. However, Ali IS taller, greater reach with his ARMS, weighs more (making it diffcult for Bruce Lee to employ is "knock the person the eff over" moves.)



I think you're a bit confused. MMA is not a fighting style, per se. Rather, it is a rule set of fighting.



It's possible. I really don't know.



This line of thought would be strawman. I did not say boxing was a joke in MMA, I said, "From what I understand, boxers get their arses handed to them at freestyle and MMA tournies."

Do you understand what is indicated there?



You probably mean kickboxing rather than just straight boxing.






This, I agree with.

Ali is great, but compared to current top notch boxer, he'd get as arse handed to him. In addition, MMA fighters these days would utterly destroy someone like Ali and Bruce. 1. I disagree, Ali is noticeably a harder striker.

2. ?

When did I say it was a fighting style?

3. 'Tis true, in any of his real fights, his only grapple was a poorly executed front-headlock.

4. You are arguing semantics, both convey the same point, that boxing sucks in MMA, which is not true.

5. No, it was even stated on this UFC TV thing I was watching of a guy preparing for the fight(can't remember who honestly), and he was saying that you need a good BOXING coach as well as kickboxing to really make your upper body strikes effective.



6. Yeah, the top MMA fighters are in a whole other ball-park.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Personally, I don't give much credence to Tai Kwon Do. I think it's mostly lame and an antiquated fighting style. However, from what my coworker says, a fifth degree american black belt wouldn't even make orange in Korea. He said it is much more strenuous and the difference in fighting ability is night and day.


Well most TKD stuff you see these days is all about throwing a few cool kicks. But the true masters, as you've pointed out can take care of themselves in a close-up H2H just fine.

I'd just like to point out that most rankings given out by dojo's in western societies don't mean anything at all. Many just go there treating it as exercise, play around for a few years and get a blackbelt.

Long ago, in oriental countries, there were no computers, internet, consoles aka technological entertainment. All the kids used to do were play sports and many of them trained in martial arts. They were poor and didn't really have anything else to do in their spare time and would train alot of the time. The training was also much harder than modern dojo's. There were no "lightly does it" methods. For example they would punch till their knuckles bled every day to harden them, use a open handed jab on boxing bags etc. You did whatever your master said and that was it, there was no complaining. Those young people would also sometimes fight on the streets and actually had REAL fighting experience.

Now, contrast it to today, most of the training is piss poor. Any slacker can get a blackbelt after a few years. They don't train nearly as much, nor will they ever have the will to subject themselves to the strenuous and painful training I talked about.

But the main thing is that the level of the Masters/Sifu/Sensei's have degraded alot and will continue to do so for the reasons I've pointed out above. Also, I would think people are more civilised these days, they actually don't have any real fighting experience outside of their sparing training. In a real fight, if you don't have experience, everything will go out the window. The adrenaline takes over and they just throw random punches that are anything but martial arts.

I guess an exception would be Muay Thai, but I wouldn't say because it is more effective but because they actually have real fights even during competition, unlike something like TKD where the are just allowed to do a few kicks (boriest thing to watch BTW).

So overall I would say the status of oriental MA at this point in time is a joke. But I do believe there are still a few real masters out there.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Was that supposed to refute what I said?

Because the only grapple I have ever seen him do, was a front head-lock, and a poorly executed one at that.


Most of Jeet Kune Do involves grapples.

I thought it was worth mentioning because he did incorporate Jeet Kune Do in some of his choreography. I know it's a stretch but still

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Most of Jeet Kune Do involves grapples.

I thought it was worth mentioning because he did incorporate Jeet Kune Do in some of his choreography. I know it's a stretch but still Right.

And the only grapple he ever performed was a basic one, and he sucked at it.

Evidence points to him not being an efficient grappler.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
1. I disagree, Ali is noticeably a harder striker.

The Ali fan side of me agrees and, in fact, I have stated twice now that I think Ali is the stronger striker. However, I don't think it's that much of a difference between the two. It isn't like the striking power difference between the average welterweight versus the average super heavyweight.

Now, the physics side of me screams the Bruce Lee was the stronger puncher. Just thinking about what Lee did with his punches...it makes me think that he was a much more powerful striker than Ali. hmm If we were to do a force analysis of Bruce Lee's "power" punches, I'm quite sure the math would be in Lee's favor, relative to Ali.




However, in a real world fight, I have to give it to Ali. I just can't deal with the idea of tiny little Bruce being a stronger puncher. Ali was one of my childhood heroes. My TWD coworker thinks it's retarded that people even debate it (because he favors Lee's striking power, by a landslide). But, for me, you have someone who is bigger in all dimensions, that was one of the greatest boxers ever.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
2. ?

When did I say it was a fighting style?

Glad you asked:

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Lee is massively overrated, he is no MMA master, shit, an above-average MMA guy would beat his ass.

You heavily implied it here. An MMA master, hmm? Now, you could say, jiu jitu master, mui thai master, but there's no such thing as a MMA master because MMA is a rule set, not really a discipline. Now, many styles can be used in MMA, but MMA is not a style. Capisce?

On a second thought, I think the way you're wanting to treat it, wouldn't it really be called a hybrid style? (the combination of two or more techniques being used as one technique...)

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
it is a powerful MMA style,

And you directly said it here. You see, boxing would be a style used in MMA; it is not a powerful MMA style because it is actually a martial art style. Do you understand what I'm illustrating?

Had you not said the first thing, I would not have even cared about what you said here. Anyway, you DID say "it" was a style right here, even if you didn't want it to mean that.



However, I knew what you meant and was just being a smartass. doped

In fact, there are MMA "schools" that teach "MMA", but even in those environments, they are actually several styles taught in an MMA school.


Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
3. 'Tis true, in any of his real fights, his only grapple was a poorly executed front-headlock.

k

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
4. You are arguing semantics, both convey the same point, that boxing sucks in MMA, which is not true.


No, my friend, you missed the original point and it was never semantics.

The original point is...

A plain jane boxer gets his ass kicked in MMA matches. In fact, I would submit to you that when "boxing" is used in MMA matches such as K-1 or UFC, it isn't really boxing. Rather, it is kick boxing. Throw a straight-up trained boxer who is better than average into a street fight against a fighter is is above average in the MMA world, and guess who wins? There, you will find my point.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
5. No, it was even stated on this UFC TV thing I was watching of a guy preparing for the fight(can't remember who honestly), and he was saying that you need a good BOXING coach as well as kickboxing to really make your upper body strikes effective.

You're going off on a tangent, again. I don't not deny that boxing can be used in MMA fights. However, I do say that someone who only trained as a boxer would get his ass handed to him in an MMA tournie. That's it.


I was also watching a video on a little known UFC fighter named Randy Couture and he said that "fights are won on the ground". Go figure.

Each fighter has his or her strengths and weaknesses. For a while there, the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fighters were the top dogs. Now, there has been a trend of more rounded fighters winning matches. I don't know what the future holds for MMA trends...but I would think the most well rounded will continue to be the best.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
6. Yeah, the top MMA fighters are in a whole other ball-park.

Yet successful MMA fighters employ boxing strikes. Go figure...

Actually Lee wasnt as heavy as a welter, even if he did throw shots hard for a little guy, he still gets all kinds of shit in his grill from Ali that he wouldnt be able to cope with.

And Ali would be able to deal with constant kicking? The leg sweeps and what not?

At any time Lee crouches low enough to maximise his leg reach while attempting to sweep, he'll be stationary, in the non rules situ, Ali could just steam forward and punt Lee's head Baxter style...

And I dont think Sweeps for a little man like that are gonna work with a olympian athlete of Ali's dimensions/weight Ali.

And the kicks wouldn't be constant. As Lee wouldnt be able to compose himself to kick while being a battered would be soon dispatched. Kicks sacrifice balance and rapid attack. Itd be unwise to put all his eggs in one basket against Ali as he is coming in. For when he misses, he'll be totally f***ed.

But if he connects, CRACK, broke knee, or dislocated, or whatever.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
But if he connects, CRACK, broke knee, or dislocated, or whatever.

Ali probably has more wallop in his fist than Lee has in a kick, and remember this is a fight, Ali isn't going to be just be hanging motionless so Lee can take his time to windup and deliver his strongest kick right to a vulnerable area.

Most logical outcome, Ali uses his time and again tested dancing about while punching to KO the much smaller man, who doesn't have an actual fight record and for all technical purposes, an untested chin.

Edit:Look at this fight, negro might as well be teflon, nothing sticks.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ali probably has more wallop in his fist than Lee has in a kick, and remember this is a fight, Ali isn't going to be just be hanging motionless so Lee can take his time to windup and deliver his strongest kick right to a vulnerable area.

Most logical outcome, Ali uses his time and again tested dancing about while punching to KO the much smaller man, who doesn't have an actual fight record.

Look at this fight, negro might as well be teflon, nothing sticks.

All I am saying is that it's not unthinkable for Lee to succeed in taking one of Ali's legs out.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
All I am saying is that it's not unthinkable for Lee to succeed in taking one of Ali's legs out.

He has the "punchers chance", or in his case, the 'kickers/strikers chance', as do you and I (in a lesser degree).

Logically though, Lee gets punched in the face and goes down, which wouldn't take more than one or two, considering Ali has taken down a 220lbs Foreman in his prime while wearing gloves.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yet successful MMA fighters employ boxing strikes. Go figure...

Right. Obviously because ground and pound is a boxing method, right?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Actually Lee wasnt as heavy as a welter, even if he did throw shots hard for a little guy, he still gets all kinds of shit in his grill from Ali that he wouldnt be able to cope with.

Here's some more information for you. Something I forgot about.

Ali has been knocked out. No record of Lee ever having been knocked out. If we want to get to "coping", really, Ali wouldn't cope with something as foreign as Lee.


Also, it is not a secret that Ali was a fan of Lee. I wonder why...

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ali has been knocked out. No record of Lee ever having been knocked out.


ermm

Lee wins in the real world, hands down.

He is much faster than Ali...and is better at fighting in the real world. Bruce Lee was called the father of MMA by Vice President of the UFC.

The answer to your statement is "no".

You think a good UFC fighter would know the answer?

Maybe we should ask one...or two...or three.

What do you guys say?

Lee's feats could be listed here, but they would be dismissed as "heresay."

DDM & RJ,

If Lee could do in a real fight everything he did on camera against people as easily, then he would be the world's best combatant, he'd be on par with fictional characters such as Batman and The Punisher.

Fact is, Lee has no real fight record and everything we know of him (fight-wise) is anecdotal or old footage of him taking out body-bags and doing two-finger push-ups, which is really, really neat, but won't win a fight against a tested (very) top fighter.

If you're willing to put anecdotes and side-show feats such as two-finger push-ups ahead of a renowned champion's fight record, so be it, but it's silly. (unless you have some actual proof of him kicking ass?)

If it was Bruce Lee Vs. The Worlds Toughest Drunken Bar-Room Brawler, then Lee's anecdotes and neat little feats might have precedent; even then it'd be a stretch, as that guy is probably one seriously tough opponent.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You think a good UFC fighter would know the answer?

Maybe we should ask one...or two...or three.

What do you guys say?

If you could find us some UFC fighters that have actual facts on Bruce Lee's fighting abilities; not two-finger push-ups, kicking body-bags and the other neat little feats we all know about, sure, that would be great.

OK I can post this:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/85928-bruce-lee-and-jeet-kune-do-paving-the-road-for-mma-as-we-know-it

http://www.mikementzer.com/blee.html

http://www.geocities.com/mister_jack_dawson/kungfu.html

Or even this:

http://www.fightingmaster.com/masters/brucelee/brucelee.htm

But hey, it's all heresay, he never fought professionally, so he MUST be inferior to Ali.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Right. Obviously because ground and pound is a boxing method, right?



Here's some more information for you. Something I forgot about.

Ali has been knocked out. No record of Lee ever having been knocked out. If we want to get to "coping", really, Ali wouldn't cope with something as foreign as Lee.


Also, it is not a secret that Ali was a fan of Lee. I wonder why...

Of course not. The Jujitsu usually wraps things up on the nonstriking ranges. But now you mention it, Hooks and elbows are used on the ground. Yes.

Well heres the basic problem with the information you present:
Ali was never knocked out and theres no record of Lee doing shit.

And vice versa.... so much so that he had John Saxon stick and jab in enter the dragon to show the prob that MA practioners have against it.
Not to mention the other dude with the Afro was based personality wise on Ali.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ali probably has more wallop in his fist than Lee has in a kick, and remember this is a fight, Ali isn't going to be just be hanging motionless so Lee can take his time to windup and deliver his strongest kick right to a vulnerable area.

Most logical outcome, Ali uses his time and again tested dancing about while punching to KO the much smaller man, who doesn't have an actual fight record and for all technical purposes, an untested chin.

Edit:Look at this fight, negro might as well be teflon, nothing sticks.

QFT

No way Lee can follow that without getting popped left right and center.
Lee'll be eating leather from so many directions the motherf**ker'll think hes surrounded. Like you say, with that untested chin, it'd be 'curtains' pretty early for Mr.Lee.

Yeesh....

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Of course not. The Jujitsu usually wraps things up on the nonstriking ranges. But now you mention it, Hooks and elbows are used on the ground. Yes.

Elbows are NOT boxing.


Boxing, kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Kenpo, and amature wrestling are the styles used in UFC and K-1.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well heres the basic problem with the information you present:
Ali was never knocked out and theres no record of Lee doing shit.

Ali was knocked out and there's plenty of information, fights, of Lee doing stuff. He was certainly in a lot more street fights than Ali.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
And vice versa.... so much so that he had John Saxon stick and jab in enter the dragon to show the prob that MA practioners have against it.
Not to mention the other dude with the Afro was based personality wise on Ali.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Expand on this.




I really like the idea of asking a UFC fighter his opinion. I will actually work on that this weekend. This will be like a homework assignment.


Since we don't have anyway of actually being definitive, expert opinion is just about the only thing we have.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK I can post this:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/85928-bruce-lee-and-jeet-kune-do-paving-the-road-for-mma-as-we-know-it

http://www.mikementzer.com/blee.html

http://www.geocities.com/mister_jack_dawson/kungfu.html

Or even this:

http://www.fightingmaster.com/masters/brucelee/brucelee.htm

But hey, it's all here-say, he never fought professionally, so he MUST be inferior to Ali.

It is all here-say, for every post you can find of Bruce Lee supposedly being able to destroy everyone, there are counter post saying 'he was a gifted athlete and a actor, not a real world fighter'.

Google "Bruce Lee Myths", you'll get plenty of hits.

Joe Lewis, a kickboxing and Karate world champion who trained under Bruce Lee for some time once said: "Bruce Lee was not a fighter. He was an actor and a teacher. He was a great teacher."

So considering one guy has legends/myths backing him up and the other has facts, why would you think he isn't an inferior fighter?

Edit: There's no question that Lee wasn't physically gifted, he was incredibly fast and could do amazing feats of strength for his size (or any size?), but that alone doesn't win a fight. He also was a bit of a philosopher, there's an interview of his that is a must-see for any Lee fan.

Here it is, highly recommend it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5705518582839508545

See?

See, what?

That everything said about Lee is heresay, and there is no way in hell you will believe otherwise. All his feats and accomplishments are nullified to you because he never strapped on a pair of boxing gloves.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
That everything said about Lee is heresay, and there is no way in hell you will believe otherwise. All his feats and accomplishments are nullified to you because he never strapped on a pair of boxing gloves.

There is no reason to believe all those amazing things are anything but myths built around an a gifted actor who's legend has avalanched with the passing of time, as these things tend to do.

Tell me, why do you believe those myths of him being able to kick anyone's ass as fact? Because he kicked a lot of ass on film, or?

Like I said, being completely ripped, doing two-finger push-ups, kicking body-bags and holding 125lbs dumbbells at arm's length is all very impressive, but it doesn't win fights and take precedence over an actual fight record. You know this.

This is a good interview Joe Lewis did back in the day, it's good because he actually knew Bruce Lee and trained with the guy. He goes into boxing, grappling etc, concerning Bruce Lee.

http://www.mikemiles.com/lewis.html

Originally posted by Robtard
There is no reason to believe all those amazing things are anything but myths built around an a gifted actor who's legend has avalanched with the passing of time, as these things tend to do.

Tell me, why do you believe those myths of him being able to kick anyone's ass as fact? Because he kicked a lot of ass on film, or?

Like I said, being completely ripped, doing two-finger push-ups, kicking body-bags and holding 125lbs dumbbells at arm's length is all very impressive, but it doesn't win fights and take precedence over an actual fight record. You know this. A boxing match has rules, there will be no rules in this fight. Ali trained as a boxer who fights by a certain set of rules, he has never faced anyone as fast as Lee.

Jeet Kun Do also incorporates boxing skills, and Lee was a former boxing champion, you know.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
A boxing match has rules, there will be no rules in this fight. Ali trained as a boxer who fights by a certain set of rules, he has never faced anyone as fast as Lee.

Jeet Kun Do also incorporates boxing skills, and Lee was a former boxing champion, you know.

Ali is still a champion fighter, just because he normally can't punch below the belt, doesn't mean he doesn't know how to.

Bruce Lee was a boxing champ? Have something to support this?

Silly how you gimp Ali because of "no rules" and the like, yet refuse to see that Lee was an actor first and didn't really fight, so a fight without rules would be worse for him. Ali knocked a 230lbs Foreman (in his prime no less) while wearing gloves, imagine what he would do to a 135lbs Lee with bare knuckles/

Did you read that Joe Lewis interview, dude is regarded as one of the greatest martial artist full-contact competitors of all time, should give you some insight into the real Bruce Lee. Even Chuck Norris couldn't touch him.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ali is still a champion fighter, just because he normally can't punch below the belt, doesn't mean he doesn't know how to. Well all we ever see Ali do is box above the belt.

Its....all over the internet, google it.

And how long did it take Ali to KO Foreman? And I am not gimping Ali.

Oh so his word is law? The interview is fact, but the things said about Lee are heresay?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Well all we ever see Ali do is box above the belt.

Its....all over the internet, google it.

And how long did it take Ali to KO Foreman? And I am not gimping Ali.

Oh so his word is law? The interview is fact, but the things said about Lee are heresay?

And what do we see Lee doing fight-wise? Nothing.

Tried, didn't find anything about Bruce Lee being a "boxing champion." Care to post it?

Ali in round 8. Foreman, like Ali, was a world class boxer who was known for his devastating blows and his concrete-like head. This just speaks well for Ali.

Well, Lewis was a martial arts champion, is regarded as one of best and he both knew and trained with Bruce Lee. While it may not be law, it certainly has leagues over all these Bruce Lee myths you desperately cling to. Did you read the interview? It's good and if you're a fan of fighting sports, there's many good insight in it.

In regards to Lee being able to kick anyone's ass, yes, they are all here-say. You're hilarious, I show you the opionion of both an expert and a guy who actually knew Bruce Lee and you blow it off, but you'll accept bloated-up fantasies written by movie-fans as fact.

Originally posted by Robtard
And what do we see Lee doing? Nothing.So more "Lee never fought professionally?" Thats pretty dense, dude. Look below for proof that Lee has a documented fighting record.




http://mobile.answers.com/topic/bruce-lee?curtab=2750_1

At age 12, Lee entered La Salle College and later he attended St. Francis Xavier's College. In 1959, at the age of 18, Lee got into a fight and badly beat his opponent, getting into trouble with the police. His father became concerned about young Bruce's safety, and as a result, he and his wife decided to send Bruce to the United States to live with an old friend of his father's. Lee left with $100 in his pocket and the titles of 1958 Boxing Champion and the Crown Colony Cha Cha Champion of Hong Kong. He relocated to the United States through his citizenship to earn an education. After living in San Francisco, he moved to Seattle to work for Ruby Chow, another friend of his father's. In 1959, Lee completed his high school education in Seattle and received his diploma from Edison Technical School. He enrolled at the University of Washington and studied philosophy, drama, and psychology, among other subjects. It was at the University of Washington that he met his future wife Linda Emery, whom he would marry in 1964.

So Ali wore him down, then KO'd him.

After reading the interview, Lewis is an arrogant prick.

Hey, the people who say the things about Bruce knew him, trained with him, just like Lewis. Why is that whatever Lewis said is valid, but what they say is not?

And this:

http://mobile.answers.com/topic/bruce-lee? curtab=2750_1#1964_Long_Beach_International_Karate
_Championships

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
So more "Lee never fought professionally?" Thats pretty dense, dude. Look below for proof that Lee has a documented fighting record.

http://mobile.answers.com/topic/bruce-lee?curtab=2750_1

At age 12, Lee entered La Salle College and later he attended St. Francis Xavier's College. In 1959, at the age of 18, Lee got into a fight and badly beat his opponent, getting into trouble with the police. His father became concerned about young Bruce's safety, and as a result, he and his wife decided to send Bruce to the United States to live with an old friend of his father's. Lee left with $100 in his pocket and the titles of 1958 Boxing Champion and the Crown Colony Cha Cha Champion of Hong Kong. He relocated to the United States through his citizenship to earn an education. After living in San Francisco, he moved to Seattle to work for Ruby Chow, another friend of his father's. In 1959, Lee completed his high school education in Seattle and received his diploma from Edison Technical School. He enrolled at the University of Washington and studied philosophy, drama, and psychology, among other subjects. It was at the University of Washington that he met his future wife Linda Emery, whom he would marry in 1964.

So Ali wore him down, then KO'd him.

After reading the interview, Lewis is an arrogant prick.

Hey, the people who say the things about Bruce knew him, trained with him, just like Lewis. Why is that whatever Lewis said is valid, but what they say is not?

Dude, you said "Bruce Lee was a boxing champion", then you post a record which has: 2 Exhibitions, 4 Amateur boxing bouts, 2 street fights, 1 disputed and 1 Martial Arts fight, three of which are "unknowns". Are you dense?

Ali's fight record: 56 Wins (37 knockouts, 19 decisions), 5 Losses (4 decisions, 1 retirement), 0 Draws

Okay, does that KO not count as a KO?

Why is he arrogant? He certainly has the accolades to back up what he's saying.

Those people speak well of Bruce Lee in regards of his physical conditioning, his speed and his teaching ability, as does Joe Lewis. But as I said before, kicking bags and doing two-finger push-ups doesn't win you a fight; especially against one of the greatest fighters.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And this:

http://mobile.answers.com/topic/bruce-lee? curtab=2750_1#1964_Long_Beach_International_Karate
_Championships

And?

Originally posted by Robtard
Dude, you said "Bruce Lee was a boxing champion", then you post a record which has: 2 Exhibitions, 4 Amateur boxing bouts, 2 street fights, 1 disputed and 1 Martial Arts fight. Are you dense? YEESH.....The fight record I showed are the ones that are DOCUMENTED. And you put alot of faith in what Lewis says, what;s wrong with me putting alot of faith in what is said about Bruce? If anything, what is said about Bruce is far more relevant because more than one person said it.

OK, so would Lee and Ali go 8 rounds? Doubtful.

Are you telling me that the guy doesnt sound like an arrogant self righteous prick? Wait, forget I asked that.

They also speak of how Bruce was regularly challenged on the set and how he never lost.



Shit, wrong link, lemmee find it again.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is movie versus, really. So you can argue that all day...but you've already done that. We've argued about this tirelessly in that real world thread. Since this is to the death, Lee would win in the real world, too. Does Ali have training on how to kill a person? Does Ali have any MMA training anywhere on level with Bruce?

Since this is movies, Ali gets raped with extreme vengence. When has Ali ever kicked a person off the groun, several feet? (Ali has done that many times in real life, not just movies.)

Boxers these days are signifantly better than Ali. Let's put a tope heavyweight MMA fighter up against a top Boxer. Better yet, let's put a top free style martial artist (he can use any style he likes...) against a top MMA fighter. Compare those. Who would win out of that?


Since I'm fairly sure an MMA fighter is best suited to win any street fight against anyone, that doesn't work too well. However, a free style martial artist may not fair as well against a top notch boxer. Of course, I could be wrong and be really retarded and a Martial Artist would make short work of a boxer....but I find that unlikely.

Listen.

I love lee I lot.
He brought Martial Arts to the limelight in America and for that we should be forever greatful.
But while Lee was making movies, guys like Rolls Gracie were proving the worth of Gracie Ju-Jitsu in Brazil.
Just because a guy studies more than one Martial Art,does not mean he is a mixed martial artist.
Lee is a pioneer and a legend, but I think calling him a "Mixed Martial Artist" is more of an honorary title and not something we should take literaly.

What makes an MMA fighter more dominant than most, is partialy because they train in all phases of combat day in and day out.
Then they apply those skills in the ring.
Muhammed Ali was the HW champion.
Lee, for as great as a Martial Artist as he was, was in no way shape or form a dominant proven champion.

Gene Lebell has made mention that if Lee was a bigger guy he would have been knocked out by a kick of his.
Chuck Norris also commented that when devolping Jeet Kune Do, Lee did not want to implement head kicks into the philosophy, because he did not belieive a head kick could be effectivly used in street fight.


Lee was not a proven full contanct fighter.
Some people make it out as if he was the first UFC champion.
Ali was a proven boxer, who I believe's experince in the boxing ring would prove the better.


But for all that, if were talking about taking Lee from the movies I think you would have to go with him.

Real Life= ALi
Movies= Bruce.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
YEESH.....The fight record I showed are the ones that are DOCUMENTED. And you put alot of faith in what Lewis says, what;s wrong with me putting alot of faith in what is said about Bruce? If anything, what is said about Bruce is far more relevant because more than one person said it.

OK, so would Lee and Ali go 8 rounds? Doubtful.

Are you telling me that the guy doesnt sound like an arrogant self righteous prick? Wait, forget I asked that.

They also speak of how Bruce was regularly challenged on the set and how he never lost.

Shit, wrong link, lemmee find it again.

Flip-side to that, Lee has hundreds of undocumented fights and lost the majority of them, for all we know. See what I mean about "hearsay."

No, Ali would clean his clock in the first round, is the most probable outcome. 56 wins in his career.

Again, how is he arrogant? He speaks relatively well of Bruce Lee and he has the record to back-up what he's saying.

More hearsay. Also of note, who were these (supposed) challengers, were they anyone of worth, were they champions etc. etc. etc.? Because if Lee spent his time kicking local street toughs, that doesn't make him champion material. I'm sure that Ali in his prime could have taken out many a wannabe street tough or amateur boxer/fighter.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
YEESH.....The fight record I showed are the ones that are DOCUMENTED. And you put alot of faith in what Lewis says, what;s wrong with me putting alot of faith in what is said about Bruce? If anything, what is said about Bruce is far more relevant because more than one person said it.

OK, so would Lee and Ali go 8 rounds? Doubtful.

Are you telling me that the guy doesnt sound like an arrogant self righteous prick? Wait, forget I asked that.

They also speak of how Bruce was regularly challenged on the set and how he never lost.



Shit, wrong link, lemmee find it again.


I wouldn't say it's more revelant because more than one person said it.
Take a look at Rickson Gracie. Possibly the best pure BJJ artist in the world. He's got a documented MMA record of 11-0 with one street fight win to his record.
Yet they claim he's 400-0. The amazing thing is some people say this is true. More than one person. And most of them are just blindly hugging the guys nuts.
Even with a documented record of 11-0 I don't believe Rickson is 400 and 0 (He did lose to Ron Tripp. Not much of a loss but oh well).


And lets take this into perspective.
Lets did say if a guy never lost, how much does that say for the competition he is taking on?
Being undefeated is not always a good thing.

And lets not forget, for all the people who worship Bruce, their are just as many that have claimed Gene Lebell humbled Bruce many times on the mat with his grappling skills.

Funny how you didn't see any type of ground work at all in Lee's fights till after he met Lebell.

Originally posted by Robtard
Flip-side to that, Lee has hundreds of undocumented fights and lost the majority of them, for all we know. See what I mean about "hearsay."Speculate much? I am going with what is seen and talked about by living beings, not fairy tales.

Unless Lee lands one of those kicks that can shatter a one inch thick piece of dangling wood.

He speaks in a respective fashion while glorifying himself. "Bruce Lee learned alot from me"....gimmee a break.

They were accomplished martial artists, they performed martial arts on camera. Do the math. If Jet Li is filming a movie, he is gonna choose accomplished martial artist to fight instead of you and I.

Originally posted by Robtard
Flip-side to that, Lee has hundreds of undocumented fights and lost the majority of them, for all we know. See what I mean about "hearsay."

No, Ali would clean his clock in the first round, is the most probable outcome. 56 wins in his career.

Again, how is he arrogant? He speaks relatively well of Bruce Lee and he has the record to back-up what he's saying.

More hearsay. Also of note, who were these (supposed) challengers, were they anyone of worth, were they champions etc. etc. etc.? Because if Lee spent his time kicking local street toughs, that doesn't make him champion material. I'm sure that Ali in his prime could have taken out many a wannabe street tough or amateur boxer/fighter.

I got to agree.

Look how many people bought into the hype of Kimbo Slice.
Would I call Kimbo a bad fighter?
Not really. I mean put him on the street and not many people are going to mess with him.
Their's a difference between beating up on steroid freaks behind a 7-11 and fighting pro-competition.
I think the same applies with Lee.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Speculate much? I am going with what is seen and talked about by living beings, not fairy tales.

Unless Lee lands one of those kicks that can shatter a one inch thick piece of dangling wood.

He speaks in a respective fashion while glorifying himself. "Bruce Lee learned alot from me"....gimmee a break.

They were accomplished martial artists, they performed martial arts on camera. Do the math. If Jet Li is filming a movie, he is gonna choose accomplished martial artist to fight instead of you and I.

Hearsay is hearsay.

Dangling pieces of wood don't hit back, to paraphrase Lee himself.

That's right, because Bruce Lee was the inventor of all that is Martial Arts and no one taught him anything, how silly of me.

Yeah, they, like Lee, were actors first. Do you think Jackie Chan and Jet Lee (who actually has a record) are super badass fighters as well; who can take anyone out? It's also hearsay that Lee was kicking all their asses on a daily basis. Of note, all those extras on Enter the Dragon (e.g.) were not Martial Arts masters; just happened to be Asian.

Originally posted by mr.smiley
I got to agree.

Look how many people bought into the hype of Kimbo Slice.
Would I call Kimbo a bad fighter?
Not really. I mean put him on the street and not many people are going to mess with him.
Their's a difference between beating up on steroid freaks behind a 7-11 and fighting pro-competition.
I think the same applies with Lee.

Exactly, when fighting amateurs and street toughs, he's a force to be reckoned with. Put him against someone who has extensive training, knows how to strike and take a hit, he gets beaten and badly.

But hey, the legends are fun.

Originally posted by Robtard
Hearsay is hearsay.

Dangling pieces of wood don't hit back, to paraphrase Lee himself.

That's right, because Bruce Lee was the inventor of all that is Martial Arts and no one taught him anything, how silly of me.

Yeah, they, like Lee, were actors first. Do you think Jackie Chan and Jet Lee are super badass fighters as well; who can take anyone out? It's also hearsay that Lee was kicking all their asses on a daily basis. Of note, all those extras on Enter the Dragon were not Martial Arts masters; just happened to be Asian.

Jackie Chan is overrated, and yes, Jet Li can probably whip most guys asses.

Gonna bow out here, Rob. You and I arent gonna see eye to eye on the heresay issue, and it will lead to page after page after page of bullshit.

Jet Li could beat most guys on the street, maybe. Put him against a kick boxer, boxer, jui jitsu or MMA guy of some worth, he'd get stomped.

Originally posted by Robtard
Jet Li could beat most guys on the street, maybe. Put him against a kick boxer, boxer, jui jitsu or MMA guy of some worth, he'd get stomped.

Actually Jet Li is a proven martial arts multiple national champion before his career in films.

Now to describe him as just some street level fighter is a little unfair to say the least.

Originally posted by Placidity
Actually Jet Li is a proven martial arts multiple national champion before his career in films.

Now to describe him as just some street level fighter is a little unfair to say the least.

From what I hear of Wushu, it's a lot of forms, posing and such, stuff that doesn't have a place in an actual fight.

I didn't say he was just some street leveler, fair enough though.

Being this is a movie forums, Bruce Lee destroys him.

Now, if this were a real fight, Ali would crush him in the first scenario. It would be a little closer in the second, but I'd still give the win to Ali.

You implied it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Elbows are NOT boxing.


Ever see Tyson fight...?

Dont be silly. Lots of boxers use them. (Not back-elbow strikes, of course...)
I know they are illegal, but some boxers like to do it on the blind side of the ref, on the sly, and others connect with elbows by way of accidental follow through from the hook.

Originally posted by dadudemon




I have no idea what you're talking about here. Expand on this.


OK. No guard or system of MA that Lee was studying had an answer to stick and move tactics employing the jab and quick combinations.
(The footwork involved unsures the jabber that he aint gonna be around for the counterstrike from the jab-ee, and moving around the opponent stops them from getting rooted from kicks or big strikes, themselves as they have to constantly be readjusting their own angle to face them..)

Lee was a big fan of Ali's and these factors are why he wrote that scene where John Saxon is popping and moving with the Jab, confounding his opponent. And also based Jim Brown's demeanour on Ali also.
Displays like the one Robtard posted, the Ali Vs Cleveland Wiliiams fight are what made hima fan of Alis.

Sorry its hard to elborate any further than that.

Also, if Bruce Lee was a champion Boxer, how come no one heard of that...? Net Myth.

That Joe Lewis interview was definitely more concrete that netmyth or "expert testimony"/speculation from fighters who never fought him.
Normally I'd say also that just knowing him isnt enough, like if Bruces Mom come in here and said "My boy coulda beat anybody" I'd still not believe that without some evidence.
But the Lewis fella seemed to know what he was talking about and had a big provable record to match it. And he knew Lee well.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ever see Tyson fight...?

Dont be silly. Lots of boxers use them. (Not back-elbow strikes, of course...)
I know they are illegal, but some boxers like to do it on the blind side of the ref, on the sly, and others connect with elbows by way of accidental follow through from the hook.

I've seen all Tyson fights...I didn't watch some of his early ones live, but I've seen them all.


Also, I used to work for DirecTV and we always watched all the Tyson fights, for free! heh heh


Elbows are a very rare occurance. Very rare.


Throwing an elbow in the Ali vs. Lee fight assumes that the fighters closed the distance. If I were Ali, I'd use my long reach to my advantage and keep that slippery asian dude at a distance.


Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
OK. No guard or system of MA that Lee was studying had an answer to stick and move tactics employing the jab and quick combinations.

Hmm. I disagree on a fundemental level. I would say that in and out techniques was very much a part of Lee's fighting personlity. He liked to end things very very quickly. Submission or KO ASAP was his way. He wasn't in it for points.


Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
(The footwork involved unsures the jabber that he aint gonna be around for the counterstrike from the jab-ee, and moving around the opponent stops them from getting rooted from kicks or big strikes, themselves as they have to constantly be readjusting their own angle to face them..)

This is where Lee is deadly. Not only does he defend against strikes, he uses the strikes as part of his offensive movement. It's rather genius.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Lee was a big fan of Ali's and these factors are why he wrote that scene where John Saxon is popping and moving with the Jab, confounding his opponent. And also based Jim Brown'
s demeanour on Ali also.
Displays like the one Robtard posted, the Ali Vs Cleveland Wiliiams fight are what made hima fan of Alis.

Sorry its hard to elborate any further than that.


No. That's great. I like talking about this. I read every post in this thread. I just can't be arsed to reply to everyone who addresses me.




Now, I still would like to get a REAL opinion on this. Not mine...a half assed martial artist of many different styles, or anyone elses opinions. You did boxing, though, right? I've never fought in any tournies.


I was told that I may have difficulty getting someone on the horn about this...from the UFC.

Originally posted by dadudemon

I was told that I may have difficulty getting someone on the horn about this...from the UFC.

See the article/interview I posted on Joe Lewis. As a world martial arts champion times over and rated as one of the best martial artist in the world, I believe his opinion could be in the "expert" range.

Yeah Robtard but hes the wrong kind of expert....
(IE one who says real things that they will never acknowledge or wanna hear about Lee )

Dude, regardless, I and many others still throw 'em when doing any bag work and in a no rules situation, if the opportunity presented itself I'd use them. (Especially as a guitarist wanting to preserve whats left of his hands lolz)
They are devastating and using them correctly, its like using a bat, and your elbows will take way more than your knuckles will.
True what you say about range though, Lee would have to be close.
It'd be a great finishing move for Ali after the jabs and a quick combo.

What do you base your Lee assessments on...?

The footwork we are taking about circles round the opponent as well as in and out.

Originally posted by Robtard
This is a good interview Joe Lewis did back in the day, it's good because he actually knew Bruce Lee and trained with the guy. He goes into boxing, grappling etc, concerning Bruce Lee.

http://www.mikemiles.com/lewis.html

That's a good interview. I enjoyed it.


Now, he says Bruce never sparred with any of the greats from that day, but I strongly disagree. He says some good things about Bruce, too. I think that's rather big of him considering their past. I used to think of this guy as a whiner with talent. Not so much now.

Here's direct contradiction to Joe Lewis's sparring statement.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=39508



However, that doesn't take away from what I would call an "expert opinion." Joe Lewis would know a million times more about Lee's abilities than say, you and I. When Joe Says that he was getting into grappling towards the end, he was. When Joe says he was still had some residual Wing Chun "personality", he does. When he said that he was the fastest man that ever stood in front of him, he probably was. The only thing I can directly contradict of his is his sparring comment. Clearly, Bruce and Norris sparred on many occasions.

So he was wrong about Lee sparring with Chuck Norris. Okay.

BTW, if Chuck and Lee had fought offscreen, Chuck would have kicked his ass.

Originally posted by Robtard
So he was wrong about Lee sparring with Chuck Norris. Okay.

Originally posted by Robtard
BTW, if Chuck and Lee had fought offscreen, Chuck would have kicked his ass.


Chuck never said that or even implied it. He had great respect for Lee and his abilities.


However, Chuck Norris is very...nice?

I've got a crapload of homework to do this weekend, but I might be able to make a few calls and get someone on the line. I don't think it's that far out to get someone on the line.

Anybody notice how this thread degenerated to just other "Lee versus Ali" thread, despite being in the "movies VS" forum? Good times.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Originally posted by Blinky
Anybody notice how this thread degenerated to just other "Lee versus Ali" thread, despite being in the "movies VS" forum? Good times.

But...I like it that way better.


I think that Robtard is really onto something. There are a lot of Lee fanboys that are fanboys from the legend and the movies rather than facts. I think this is a really good place to discuss that. It hasn't gotten heated either, so I think the boards are working exactly the way they are supposed to.

Originally posted by Blinky
Anybody notice how this thread degenerated to just other "Lee versus Ali" thread, despite being in the "movies VS" forum? Good times.

Some people can't handle Lee winning even a fictitious fight...

That says something.

Not speaking well of peoples confidence in Lee is it, once they've seen past the subterfuge, smokes and mirrors and associated shenaniganry that is the usual appraisal of Mr.Lee's ablitahhhhhs....?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Not speaking well of peoples confidence in Lee is it, once they've seen past the subterfuge, smokes and mirrors and associated shenaniganry that is the usual appraisal of Mr.Lee's ablitahhhhhs....?

You forgot to add "pwned" at the end.

Originally posted by Blinky
Anybody notice how this thread degenerated to just other "Lee versus Ali" thread, despite being in the "movies VS" forum? Good times.

It's obvious movie Bruce Lee is nigh-invincible, so there's nothing much to discuss with him taking on movie Ali.

He'd do that pounce back-and-forth maneuver, make some low gutteral Asiany-sounds, do that quick clear-the-nostrils-of-snot manuever and then take off (movie) Ali's head with a kick. /the end

K.

So,


I didn't get any calls made last weekend. I was much too busy.