Our Noah's Ark

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ephraim
Our Noah's Ark by Michael
The last prophecy letter by Ephraim
This letter is dedicated to all Christians


Our time here is getting short. Therefore, I've decided to construct one final outline of prophetic events. These prophetic events, which I've been writing about and debating for over two decades, are now heading towards a conclusion. Therefore, it is important that this letters purpose be understood. This letter is an interpretation and will move fairly fast with limited explanation. I hope it is understandable to all.

Since Christianity began, believers have always been taught to have faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, Hebrews 11:1. It has always been my thought that if the Bible was true faith would eventually become reality. In other words, prophecies that were written in a vague manner would start to become apparent and faith would become visible. An example of this would be Noah's Ark. If we could see the Ark upon a mountain then something we learned as faith would become a reality. Reality is one step higher than Faith. Short of seeing God, which we cannot do until we die, this is as good as it gets for a believer. Therefore, this is what I call, "Our Noah's Ark". Our Noah's Ark is prophecy fulfilled in plain view. This now becomes something seen, instead of faith in something unseen. Better said, some of the prophecies of Revelation are finally becoming discernible, which suggests a conclusion. The two most important items that must be derived from this narrative are as follows. If these prophecies which were written centuries ago are now happening, we know two things. One, that the author of those prophecies was God; and two, that the religion he brought was true. Therefore, all other religions are false. I'll say that again. There is only one God and he brought only one way to Heaven. Any other way must become false and will lead to the second death, which is the death of the soul. Let's get started.

Note: not all verses are exact quotes. Some are paraphrased.

Rev. 13:1 - The beast with seven heads and ten horns.

The seven heads are seven nations. The ten horns are ten kings. The beast is a group of nations that will wage war or the leader of those nations. Literally, it is Israel and the Muslim nations that surround her. This beast was born when Israel received her independence in 1948. This beast though, as stated in Rev. 13:1, is actually Israel at a specific time in her history. It denotes the Oslo Accords of 1993 and the beginning of land for peace. This agreement lasted seven years and ended in September 2000 with the start of the second intifada. This brings us to those three extra kings who the beast subdues in Daniel. These kings were Israeli Prime Ministers and all served during this seven year time frame. Arafat was known to have boasted that he affected the elections in Israel three times through terror. Daniel 9:27 says he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. The covenant began with the agreement between Yasser Arafat and Prime Minister Rabin. It is also known as Daniel's 70th week. In Hebrew, the word many is written Rab.

Rev. 13:3- The beasts deadly head wound.

Head is a nation. It is similar to the heads of Rev 13:1, only singular. The beast's head (nation) was wounded in 1967 and is now being healed through the Oslo Accords.

Rev. 13:4- And they worshipped the dragon. Who is able to make war with him?

Islam is a false religion. The dragon is Satan. As long as they aren't worshipping Christ they are worshipping Satan. Who is able to make war with him refers to the difficulty of fighting a terrorist enemy. In other words, they are not really an army. A suicide bomber is almost impossible to defend against.

Rev. 13:5- he was able to continue 42 months.

Arafat continued for 42 months during the Oslo Accords before terror finally caused the Israelis to stop giving into his demands. The last 42 months of those seven years were not nearly as productive for him. This was during the term of Benjamin Netanyahu as Prime Minister from 1996 to 1999.

Rev. 13:7- power was given him over all kindreds and nations.

Arafat had power over all peoples of the Earth in the United Nations. All nations wanted Israel to give back lands won in the 1967 war. Votes in the U.N. are always one-sided in favor of the Palestinians.

Rev. 13:10- this is a parable. Those who lead into captivity will be taken captive. Those who kill with the sword shall be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and faith of the saints.

Translation- If you lead others to false Gods you will be taken captive by those Gods. If you kill with the sword, which the Lord is the two-edged sword or better said the Word of God , you will be killed with the sword. In other words, believers will be taken by the Lord. This is the faith of the saints.

Rev. 13:11- and I beheld another beast coming up out of the Earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

This second beast has two horns. The horns are kings. Therefore, this second beast is a country with two kings. This is the Palestinian Authority after Hamas was elected and brought into the Unity Government in 2006.

Rev. 13:12- And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Hamas exercised all the power of the previous PA government because they were now an equal partner in the Government. Also, the leader of Hamas caused them to worship or honor the first beast (Mahmoud Abbas and the PA) because he would not honor the first beast. The first beast was the PA without Hamas as a member. The image of the beast is what the Government of Mahmoud Abbas represented. Verse 12 does not mention the image yet, we are just informed that he caused them to worship the first beast. Verse 14 and 15 gives the details of how that worshipping or honor was to commence. An image was created of the first beast that he (the false prophet) caused to be honored. This image of the beast is three items; the recognition of Israel, the honoring of all prior Palestinian agreements, and a renunciation of terror.

Rev. 13:13- here is a riddle for anyone who ventures to take a guess. If you've read this far this part will be a surprise. I've never given this answer to anyone yet, so if you guess it I'll confirm your correct answer. I will not tell you the answer. It must first be guessed. It is not hard to figure out. A little common sense is all that's needed. This is my way of seeing who is interested. Remember, we are still talking about the false prophet. Here's the verse.

"And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the Earth in the sight of men". What is the great wonder that he does in the sight of men?????

Rev. 13:15- And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast, should be killed.

Hamas gave life unto the image of the beast. Why? Because Hamas would not honor the image themselves. In other words, if Hamas agree with the image it would never have been an issue. It was born from their disagreement. Therefore, they gave it life. Another way to say it is they caused it to be or exist.

Rev. 13:16- "and he caused all both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to receive a mark in their right hand or their foreheads:
Rev. 13:17- And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev.13:18- Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding, count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man, and his number is, six hundred threescore and six."

These last three verses all refer to the beast (Mahmoud Abbas). If you were to think of it as a time line, it drops back in time a few years. Verse 16 is the election of Mahmoud Abbas as the President of the PA Government after the death of Yasser Arafat. All voters received an indelible ink mark on their hands so they could not vote twice. This was the Mark. It says in verse 17 no one could buy and sell unless they had the mark, the name, or the number of the beast. The number of the beast happened on June 16, 2006. This was the date that a new program was established that allowed Mahmoud Abbas to receive funds to pay the salaries of his people. This program was called the Temporary International Mechanism. All salaries passed through the office of Mahmoud Abbas. Therefore, if you were a supporter of his and on his payroll you got paid. Hamas did not receive salaries. Hamas also did not receive the mark of Mahmoud Abbas. They boycotted the PA elections for President on Jan. 9, 2005.

I can't do much better than that. This is why this is my last letter. There is nothing more for me to say. Now all that's left is for the final war to start. I believe that will happen very soon. This is Our Noah's Ark.

W.O.Ephraim aka Michael777

MilitantDog
Wow. I mean WOW!!

"If these prophecies which were written centuries ago are now happening, we know two things. One, that the author of those prophecies was God; and two, that the religion he brought was true. Therefore, all other religions are false. I'll say that again. There is only one God and he brought only one way to Heaven. Any other way must become false and will lead to the second death, which is the death of the soul."

You can no more prove your statement than I can pull a full grown silver back Gorilla (dressed in waiters outfit and wielding a bagpipe) from my own back side.

Your conspiracy theory/prophecy bull crap is laughable. You don't happen to have "21" scribbled on all the walls of your padded cell? I'm sure if I sat down with a Bible (work of fiction) I could find enough quotes to prove that space aliens are coming next Tuesday.

If you make enough vague statements one or two are going to become true (or at least vaguely connect by the most thinnest thread) eventually.

Da Pittman
Originally posted by ephraim
All voters received an indelible ink mark on their hands so they could not vote twice. This was the Mark. It says in verse 17 no one could buy and sell unless they had the mark, the name, or the number of the beast. I didn't read most of the rubbish but just skipped to your conclusion, so how is getting a mark on your hand not letting you VOTE twice buying and selling?

Shakyamunison
Revelations should have never been allowed to be inserted into the bible. Revelations is not about the future, it is about the past.

Digi
This guy needs his own thread for all of his long, probably copied rants, so that we don't have to see multiple threads with the saem kind of rambling.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Digi
This guy needs his own thread for all of his long, probably copied rants, so that we don't have to see multiple threads with the saem kind of rambling.

Maybe we should ask a MOD to do just that. big grin

inimalist
Originally posted by Digi
This guy needs his own thread for all of his long, probably copied rants, so that we don't have to see multiple threads with the saem kind of rambling.

he posted it to at least one other msg board, but from my expert google sleuthing, couldn't find anything else.

man, I pine for the days when people would just cut and paste their blogs in here. LOL the e-paper trail!

Da Pittman
Originally posted by inimalist
he posted it to at least one other msg board, but from my expert google sleuthing, couldn't find anything else.

man, I pine for the days when people would just cut and paste their blogs in here. LOL the e-paper trail! Seems like he has a few

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=W.O.Ephraim+aka+Michael777&btnG=Search

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Da Pittman
Seems like he has a few

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=W.O.Ephraim+aka+Michael777&btnG=Search

Pro forum poster. laughing

Digi
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Maybe we should ask a MOD to do just that. big grin

I can't do anything here shakya. My powers are tied to the comic book stuff.

wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Digi
I can't do anything here shakya. My powers are tied to the comic book stuff.

wink

I know, but I had to raz you. wink

ephraim
To whom in may concern, the riddle has been solved.
Congratulations to Sadie from Canada for giving the
correct answer. The answer is Hamas or Palestinian
rocket fire on the cities of Sderot and Ashkelon.
Thanks to all who took part worldwide. Ephraim

Da Pittman
Originally posted by ephraim
To whom in may concern, the riddle has been solved.
Congratulations to Sadie from Canada for giving the
correct answer. The answer is Hamas or Palestinian
rocket fire on the cities of Sderot and Ashkelon.
Thanks to all who took part worldwide. Ephraim ???? messed I say what the F???

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by ephraim
To whom in may concern, the riddle has been solved.
Congratulations to Sadie from Canada for giving the
correct answer. The answer is Hamas or Palestinian
rocket fire on the cities of Sderot and Ashkelon.
Thanks to all who took part worldwide. Ephraim
I think, you sir, are a little off.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
dude, I'm a Christian. and as much as I support your endeavor in bringing people to Christ (God knows I do my part too, just not online)...


that is just far too long for me to read. erm

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
dude, I'm a Christian. and as much as I support your endeavor in bringing people to Christ (God knows I do my part too, just not online)...


that is just far too long for me to read. erm

So, you believe that ephraim was proselytizing?

Symmetric Chaos
He said he didn't read oy.

inimalist
Originally posted by ephraim
To whom in may concern, the riddle has been solved.
Congratulations to Sadie from Canada for giving the
correct answer. The answer is Hamas or Palestinian
rocket fire on the cities of Sderot and Ashkelon.
Thanks to all who took part worldwide. Ephraim

lol

it isn't 1087 any longer, Saladin has been defeated

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, you believe that ephraim was proselytizing?

I didn't read. I was assuming. if my assumption was wrong, then... whoops.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
He said he didn't read oy.

I'm a she.


but even if I want to read that, its just too long.

can anyone give a shorter version? >.<

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I'm a she.

There are no girls on the internets.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
but even if I want to read that, its just too long.

can anyone give a shorter version? >.<

Hamas is the antichrist and a sign that the end times are coming.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There are no girls on the internets.



Hamas is the antichrist and a sign that the end times are coming.

ouch to the girl comment.

hm. There have been so many ideas who the antichrist is. from Hitler to Obama. how is Hamas (whoever he is) any different? I believe we're nearing - probably in the end times already, but it wouldn't help if we say every person that comes along is the antichrist.

inimalist
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I believe we're nearing - probably in the end times

why do you believe this?

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by inimalist
why do you believe this?

because I've read Revelation, seen the signs, I believe in the Bible... you know, that sort of thing. not gonna go into details. I'm not up for a debate.

inimalist
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
because I've read Revelation, seen the signs, I believe in the Bible... you know, that sort of thing. not gonna go into details. I'm not up for a debate.

lol, that is essentially what everyone says

what signs? really, I'm interested

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by inimalist
lol, that is essentially what everyone says

what signs? really, I'm interested

not gonna be baited. smile besides, its 2 in the morning, I can't go into details. sorry. ^^

inimalist
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
not gonna be baited. smile besides, its 2 in the morning, I can't go into details. sorry. ^^

ya, thats hardly cute

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
not gonna be baited. smile besides, its 2 in the morning, I can't go into details. sorry. ^^

In the spirit of keeping it simple, why do you believe in the bible? All I am asking for is your opinion. I promise I will not call you a name. big grin

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
In the spirit of keeping it simple, why do you believe in the bible? All I am asking for is your opinion. I promise I will not call you a name. big grin

because I believe that the Bible is God's word. smile

no debates. I don't want the "but man wrote it" argument. I don't want nothing. please smile

inimalist
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
because I believe that the Bible is God's word. smile

no debates. I don't want the "but man wrote it" argument. I don't want nothing. please smile

why post in a discussion forum?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
because I believe that the Bible is God's word. smile

no debates. I don't want the "but man wrote it" argument. I don't want nothing. please smile

But you have not answered my question. Saying that the bible is something is not an answer to why you believe the bible. Can you try again, please?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But you have not answered my question. Saying that the bible is something is not an answer to why you believe the bible. Can you try again, please?

It's a completely legitimate answer, you simply dislike it.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by inimalist
why post in a discussion forum?

because I want to express my opinion.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But you have not answered my question. Saying that the bible is something is not an answer to why you believe the bible. Can you try again, please?

I believe in the Bible because I believe that's one of the ways God answers back to my queries, problems, prayers, etc...

if that's still not the answer you're looking for, perhaps you could specify a bit. smile

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
because I want to express my opinion.



I believe in the Bible because I believe that's one of the ways God answers back to my queries, problems, prayers, etc...

if that's still not the answer you're looking for, perhaps you could specify a bit. smile

That is closer. Was you born a Christian?

What do you mean by "one of the ways"?

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is closer. Was you born a Christian?

What do you mean by "one of the ways"?

yes.

I believe there are many ways God answers back.

inimalist
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
because I want to express my opinion.

actually, you are refusing to express an opinion a couple of people are interested in

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by inimalist
actually, you are refusing to express an opinion a couple of people are interested in

I have the right to do that wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
yes.

I believe there are many ways God answers back.

Have you done any reading on the Counsel Nausea? There were a lot of books that were candidates for being placed in the bible. Revelations was a very controversial choice for being placed in the bible. Many members of the counsel did not agree on adding that book, but it was too popular to leave out.

IMO Revelations was an Anti-Roman Propaganda Code Book. If you look into it, you will see that there are other examples of this kind of writing from the same time period.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Have you done any reading on the Counsel Nausea? There were a lot of books that were candidates for being placed in the bible. Revelations was a very controversial choice for being placed in the bible. Many members of the counsel did not agree on adding that book, but it was too popular to leave out.

IMO Revelations was an Anti-Roman Propaganda Code Book. If you look into it, you will see that there are other examples of this kind of writing from the same time period.

never read, but I know that there were a lot of candidates, and I've heard that Revelations was very controversial.

I have no current desire to, but that is a very interesting statement. smile maybe someday, some other time...

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
never read, but I know that there were a lot of candidates, and I've heard that Revelations was very controversial.

I have no current desire to, but that is a very interesting statement. smile maybe someday, some other time...

I find it ironic that the bible was compiled by humans placed on a counsel by a war lord (emperor) of the very nation that is depicted as evil in Revelations.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
really? hm. that is an interesting thought. really.

I find that God moves through mysterious ways - something even irony. it shows even He has a sense of humor. IMHO.

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
really? hm. that is an interesting thought. really.

I find that God moves through mysterious ways - something even irony. it shows even He has a sense of humor. IMHO. Such as leaving no logical evidence of his existence or proof there of and then torturing you for all time if you don't believe. wink stick out tongue

So really you believe in God just because for no other reason that it makes you feel good or it was how you were brought up?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Da Pittman
Such as leaving no logical evidence of his existence or proof there of and then torturing you for all time if you don't believe. wink stick out tongue

So really you believe in God just because for no other reason that it makes you feel good or it was how you were brought up?

You are getting mad dog lather all over the place. stick out tongue

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are getting mad dog lather all over the place. stick out tongue laughing

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Da Pittman
So really you believe in God just because for no other reason that it makes you feel good or it was how you were brought up?

nah. I don't believe in Him just because I've been brought up in the belief. And believe me, knowing that there is God doesn't always make me feel good.

I believe in Him because I've experienced Him. And I have faith. smile

okay, that's my last statement. stop baiting me already... :

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
nah. I don't believe in Him just because I've been brought up in the belief. And believe me, knowing that there is God doesn't always make me feel good.

I believe in Him because I've experienced Him. And I have faith. smile

okay, that's my last statement. stop baiting me already... :

Please entertain another question. I know the feeling you are talking about. I was raised a Christian, and I felt it also. Years ago I stopped being a Christian, but I missed that feeling. However, I found it again while chanting with a group of Buddhists. How can the feeling of faith in Christianity be the same feeling in Buddhism?

Scythe
This makes me feel good about myself.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Please entertain another question. I know the feeling you are talking about. I was raised a Christian, and I felt it also. Years ago I stopped being a Christian, but I missed that feeling. However, I found it again while chanting with a group of Buddhists. How can the feeling of faith in Christianity be the same feeling in Buddhism?

I can't answer that without being biased.

Come on, can we stop now? big grin

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I can't answer that without being biased.

Come on, can we stop now? big grin You come here to post your views and do not want to answer any questions to a forum that is directly about asking questions??? If you don't want to answer questions about your religions or your belifes then post in the OTF and not the RF because now you are just being childish. Yes you have the right not to talk about your beliefs but you also have the responsibility not to go to a place that is designed to talk about them. You don't go into a steak house and tell them because you are a vegetarian that they can't server meat while you are there.

How can we talk to you about any subject on religion if we do not understand your views and beliefs?

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Da Pittman
You come here to post your views and do not want to answer any questions to a forum that is directly about asking questions??? If you don't want to answer questions about your religions or your belifes then post in the OTF and not the RF because now you are just being childish. Yes you have the right not to talk about your beliefs but you also have the responsibility not to go to a place that is designed to talk about them. You don't go into a steak house and tell them because you are a vegetarian that they can't server meat while you are there.

How can we talk to you about any subject on religion if we do not understand your views and beliefs?

I was just expressing my opinion and didn't really expect an answer. smile I'm staying away from the religion forums again now lol, it was curiosity that made me look and answer. heh.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I can't answer that without being biased.

Come on, can we stop now? big grin

You can be biased all you like. I'm not holding you to a high standard. The question was challenging, but not unfair. I m not going to yell at you.

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I was just expressing my opinion and didn't really expect an answer. smile I'm staying away from the religion forums again now lol, it was curiosity that made me look and answer. heh. That is not an acceptable answer so you must now bow down and lick a spoon for forgiveness. wink evil face

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You can be biased all you like. I'm not holding you to a high standard. The question was challenging, but not unfair. I m not going to yell at you.

yes I know you're not going to yell at me. We're not exactly six year olds, eh? I just would rather not answer right now. Not that I don't have an answer - I'm just really not up for explaining things right now. wink

Originally posted by Da Pittman
That is not an acceptable answer so you must now bow down and lick a spoon for forgiveness. wink evil face

...does the spoon have ice cream smeared all over it? xD then, okay! lol

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
yes I know you're not going to yell at me. We're not exactly six year olds, eh? I just would rather not answer right now. Not that I don't have an answer - I'm just really not up for explaining things right now. wink



...does the spoon have ice cream smeared all over it? xD then, okay! lol

"We're not exactly six year olds, eh?" You have not been on this forum for long? laughing

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
"We're not exactly six year olds, eh?" You have not been on this forum for long? laughing

Long enough to see what you're getting at. I just had a flashback. laughing out loud

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
Long enough to see what you're getting at. I just had a flashback. laughing out loud

And I was waiting for the "You were not a real Christian" standard response. wink

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And I was waiting for the "You were not a real Christian" standard response. wink

...if I told you that you and God had a falling out, and right now He's waiting for you to see the light and come back, what would you say? xD

maybe you weren't a real Christian, maybe the seeds just didn't bury itself deep enough. Either way, from my POV, you're lost, and its up to you if you wanna come back or not... smile

And that standard response, which may be true, is just boring. No wonder sometimes we Christians can't take in a lot of people. Sometimes, we're just too serious. Well, others are, anyway... *shrug*

Da Pittman
?????? messed

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
...if I told you that you and God had a falling out, and right now He's waiting for you to see the light and come back, what would you say? xD

maybe you weren't a real Christian, maybe the seeds just didn't bury itself deep enough. Either way, from my POV, you're lost, and its up to you if you wanna come back or not... smile

And that standard response, which may be true, is just boring. No wonder sometimes we Christians can't take in a lot of people. Sometimes, we're just too serious. Well, others are, anyway... *shrug*

Or god understood and agreed with me leaving, and helped me find my way to Buddhism.

That is the problem with believing in a man made god, for he can be anything you want him to be.

The fact is that I was a Christian filled with the holy spirit, and now I am a Buddhist. I know what it feels like to be both, and it is the same. I believe that all religions feel the same way because we are all humans, and what we are feeling is more to do with us then any god.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Or god understood and agreed with me leaving, and helped me find my way to Buddhism.

That is the problem with believing in a man made god, for he can be anything you want him to be.

The fact is that I was a Christian filled with the holy spirit, and now I am a Buddhist. I know what it feels like to be both, and it is the same. I believe that all religions feel the same way because we are all humans, and what we are feeling is more to do with us then any god.

okay, whatever you say... big grin I still stand with what I believe in. smile

Originally posted by Da Pittman
?????? messed

weird or confusing?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
okay, whatever you say... big grin I still stand with what I believe in. smile



weird or confusing?

So, are you saying regardless of the facts, you will believe what you want?

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, are you saying regardless of the facts, you will believe what you want?

That's from your point of view. If that's how you see it and all. I still stand for what I see is the truth. big grin

I have faith. *shrug*

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
That's from your point of view. If that's how you see it and all. I still stand for what I see is the truth. big grin

I have faith. *shrug* By saying that you have faith means that you believe regardless of the information that you have which is the whole "faith" thing. If you choose to believe that is your thing just as I choose not to believe but I understand and acknowledge why I believe the way that I do.

If you have facts that God does exist then it is not faith, to have faith you must lack facts that support your beliefs.

Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Da Pittman
By saying that you have faith means that you believe regardless of the information that you have which is the whole "faith" thing. If you choose to believe that is your thing just as I choose not to believe but I understand and acknowledge why I believe the way that I do.

If you have facts that God does exist then it is not faith, to have faith you must lack facts that support your beliefs.

I see facts, I see truth. But they're facts and truth not accepted by everyone, so I refer to my belief as having faith in general. Besides, I believe that God cannot be explained to anyone who refuses to believe - so no matter what I do to try and explain the facts on how I see God exists, I can't make you guys believe in it anyway. smile

that's how I see it. smile and please do not ask me to explain, I'm really not up for it. I'll leave it to the other Christians here on KMC who are explaining in other threads wink

either way, I respect that you believe in what you believe in anyway. There's no point in arguing about things when you know that you can't convince the other side to see and believe what you want them to see and believe. smile

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
That's from your point of view. If that's how you see it and all. I still stand for what I see is the truth. big grin

I have faith. *shrug*

I don't need blind faith. I know because I have been there, and I am telling you the truth. You can choose to not believe me, but just remember that the way you feel is not unique.

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I see facts, I see truth. But they're facts and truth not accepted by everyone, so I refer to my belief as having faith in general. Besides, I believe that God cannot be explained to anyone who refuses to believe - so no matter what I do to try and explain the facts on how I see God exists, I can't make you guys believe in it anyway. smile

that's how I see it. smile and please do not ask me to explain, I'm really not up for it. I'll leave it to the other Christians here on KMC who are explaining in other threads wink

either way, I respect that you believe in what you believe in anyway. There's no point in arguing about things when you know that you can't convince the other side to see and believe what you want them to see and believe. smile A fact is a fact and is completely different from a truth, a fact is that 2 + 2 = 4 and is accepted by everyone, a truth is relative to the person. You are also making assumptions saying that I refuse to believe, I do not refuse to believe because I do not refuse to not learn new information. You seem to refuse to believe that God may not be real which is different then me believing that the God of the Bible is not real but if shown proof that he is I would accept it as truth but until otherwise proven he is a work of fiction created by man's need to belong.

How do you know that you couldn't not convince me that God does exist? Is your proof that he exists the same as to what has been posted over and over and shown to be flawed, curricular or a leap in faith? If you have proof or a new reason of thinking that has not been posted I would very much like to hear it, if it is the same arrangements that has been posted over and over then yes please keep it to yourself and yes that wouldn't convice me of God's existence.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Da Pittman
A fact is a fact and is completely different from a truth, a fact is that 2 + 2 = 4 and is accepted by everyone, a truth is relative to the person. You are also making assumptions saying that I refuse to believe, I do not refuse to believe because I do not refuse to not learn new information. You seem to refuse to believe that God may not be real which is different then me believing that the God of the Bible is not real but if shown proof that he is I would accept it as truth but until otherwise proven he is a work of fiction created by man's need to belong.

How do you know that you couldn't not convince me that God does exist? Is your proof that he exists the same as to what has been posted over and over and shown to be flawed, curricular or a leap in faith? If you have proof or a new reason of thinking that has not been posted I would very much like to hear it, if it is the same arrangements that has been posted over and over then yes please keep it to yourself and yes that wouldn't convice me of God's existence.

*sticks fingers into ears and hums a song* wink

Digi
Yeah, saying that you can never convince the "other side" of your viewpoint is a bit of a cop out. I've seen many people convert to all sorts of different belief systems, even when firmly entrenched in a particular viewpoint. It might not be the majority of cases, but it also isn't such a rarity as to make debate worthless.

So a failure to convert likely isn't due to the other side's stubbornness or ignorance. More than likely, it's simply due to the argument itself being flawed, or its method of delivery. People are generally receptive to solid arguments. They become much less so when there's holes in a given position.

inimalist
Originally posted by Digi
People are generally receptive to solid arguments. They become much less so when there's holes in a given position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Westen#Political_bias_study

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Digi
So a failure to convert likely isn't due to the other side's stubbornness or ignorance. More than likely, it's simply due to the argument itself being flawed, or its method of delivery. People are generally receptive to solid arguments. They become much less so when there's holes in a given position.

Very few people don't care about the facts. Most will follow whatever sounds good at the moment, critical thinking has never been and still isn't a common skill. While you or I might be more interested in the soundness of an argument the average person wants rhetoric, charisma and someone who's similar to them.

Digi
Fair enough, to both of you. I'll rescind one of my earlier two points, but will maintain the other: that it's still a cop out to cite others' stubbornness as a reason for not engaging in debate, especially when the claim is that "no one" can change their thinking. That was the position I was refuting, though clearly I went a little too far in my refutation. Selective interpretation and confirmation bias and generally just a lack of critical thinking is indeed all too common in anything we value as important to our cognitive worldview, whose biological roots are alluded to in the link inamilist posted, and whose real-world affects Sym correctly identified.

inimalist
Originally posted by Digi
Selective interpretation and confirmation bias and generally just a lack of critical thinking is indeed all too common in anything we value as important to our cognitive worldview, whose biological roots are alluded to in the link inamilist posted

minor correction, and only because it is you digi wink

it isn't an issue of critical thinking or of confirmation bias, which is specifically the selective interpretation of search for evidence which confirms a previously held belief. The study deals with non-conforming evidence. It would be more appropriately described as attempting to understand why humans do not experience cognitive dissonance when faced with conflicting evidence to their previously held views.

even at that, my favorite part of the study is the finding that people experience activity in their "reward" brain areas when they read statements they agree with. Actually, that might have to do with confirmation bias, unfortunately it takes a while for neuro and social psychological theories to come together.

Digi
Originally posted by inimalist
minor correction, and only because it is you digi wink

shakefist

Though to be fair, I'm wasn't familiar with the neurological terms to label it correctly. Had to go with the closest terms I knew, which were sociological.

inimalist
Originally posted by Digi
shakefist

Though to be fair, I'm wasn't familiar with the neurological terms to label it correctly. Had to go with the closest terms I knew, which were sociological.

lol, which highlights the current territory war between social and neuro (re: real) psychology

jokes aside, it is really a large problem. Many of these social conceptions are empirically true, yet make little sense when applied to what is known about neurology. Not that the results are different, just that the social explanations for something like cognitive dissonance become less relevant the lower you go. And ya, there are huge turf wars between the social and the neuro camps, mainly because of how deterministic and dehumanizing neuro research tends to be. The best argument I've gotten back from anthropologists about this type of thing is akin to "but that is too reductionist" while failing to point out what specificity is being lost with the reduction.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by inimalist
lol, which highlights the current territory war between social and neuro (re: real) psychology

jokes aside, it is really a large problem. Many of these social conceptions are empirically true, yet make little sense when applied to what is known about neurology. Not that the results are different, just that the social explanations for something like cognitive dissonance become less relevant the lower you go. And ya, there are huge turf wars between the social and the neuro camps, mainly because of how deterministic and dehumanizing neuro research tends to be. The best argument I've gotten back from anthropologists about this type of thing is akin to "but that is too reductionist" while failing to point out what specificity is being lost with the reduction.

You learn different things at different levels (which is a poor choice of terms I suppose) of research. Chemistry can be reduced to math but mathematicians are learning different stuff than chemists are. Similarly neuropsych (and neurology I suppose) tells you the physiological processes but not anything about thought processes that actually get used in day to day life. IMO, it's all about what you want to know rather than who's right.

inimalist
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You learn different things at different levels (which is a poor choice of terms I suppose) of research. Chemistry can be reduced to math but mathematicians are learning different stuff than chemists are. Similarly neuropsych (and neurology I suppose) tells you the physiological processes but not anything about thought processes that actually get used in day to day life. IMO, it's all about what you want to know rather than who's right.

neurology is the processes, neuro-psych is about how those do produce everyday behaviour.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by inimalist
neurology is the processes, neuro-psych is about how those do produce everyday behaviour.

Ah!

Neurology: the brain
Neuro-psych: how the brain makes the mind
xxxx-Psych: the mind

Or something to that effect?

So why the war between neuro and soc rather than neuro vs cognitive or humanistic?

inimalist
cognitive science is at odds with cognitive psychology (the former thinking the brain is not necessary for cognitive studies).

its not "neuro" and "soc", but rather more of a war between psychology and all of the other, non-empirical sciences, that have tried for a long time to explain human behaviour in terms of kin relations and institutions. lol, and it is hardly a war...

Psychology literally means mind, but in terms of what it means scientifically, it is behaviour. The mind still falls under its "umbrella", it is just much more difficult to test, hence schools like Behaviourism where no mention is made of information processing, just stimuli and response. So, XXXX-psych is the interaction between XXXX and human behaviour.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by inimalist
cognitive science is at odds with cognitive psychology (the former thinking the brain is not necessary for cognitive studies).

Where are they finding cognition to study then?

Also, I lol at the irony.

Originally posted by inimalist
its not "neuro" and "soc", but rather more of a war between psychology and all of the other, non-empirical sciences, that have tried for a long time to explain human behaviour in terms of kin relations and institutions. lol, and it is hardly a war...

Isn't being empirical one of the sorta requirements for being a science? I mean if you can't or don't test things it's basically wild mass guessing.

Originally posted by inimalist
Psychology literally means mind, but in terms of what it means scientifically, it is behaviour. The mind still falls under its "umbrella", it is just much more difficult to test, hence schools like Behaviourism where no mention is made of information processing, just stimuli and response. So, XXXX-psych is the interaction between XXXX and human behaviour.

Makes sense.

inimalist
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Where are they finding cognition to study then?

Also, I lol at the irony.

cognitive science is the study of information processing, normally "higher order" information. So like AI and other stuff, models of how te brain might compute things.

I'm with ya, I think its ridiculous.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Isn't being empirical one of the sorta requirements for being a science? I mean if you can't or don't test things it's basically wild mass guessing.


see if you can find a paper called "Anthropology against women".

It is a Marxist Feminist look at the history of Anthro, and essentially a wild mess of bias mixed with accusations.

It was presented in my 3rd year anthro class as a good paper with lots of ideas we should use in the course . Needless to say, there is no such thing as Marxist or Feminist science.

They call themselves non-empirical sciences, so I just use it in a mocking sort of way.

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