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Punisher gets 3 weeks prep. Can use Microchip (assume he didnt die and for some strange reason are still friends) and other no-name allies for help, Punisher does not have current hi-tech stash but his old stash from back in the day with Micro.

After the 3 weeks the Xmen start to hunt him down and cannot get any outside help apart from themselves.

This is pretty vague. No-name allies? How many of them can he use, and do any of them have powers? Where is this taking place? Define prep-- does Castle know who is coming for him and when?

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
This is pretty vague. No-name allies?


Thats anybody except for somebody like Stu Clark ie he knows people who can build him weapons and supply forgeries etc.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

How many of them can he use, and do any of them have powers?


They are just helping him in prep and cant help him fight.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Where is this taking place? Define prep-- does Castle know who is coming for him and when?

I edited it several times so you might not have seen what I posted. It could take place anywhere. Pun knows whos coming for him and has 3 weeks to prepare for them. The fight could take place anywhere because they are hunting him down, obvoulsy though Pun will try to lure thme into a trap .

I still gotta go with the X-Men.

One can level an area the size of a football field.
One regularly gets shot full of holes and keeps moving forward.
One is now at or above Luke Cage's level of strength.
The latter two have superhuman reflexes and agility.

There's a chance Castle may kill one of them in the process, but he's not taking them all down.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
I still gotta go with the X-Men.

One can level an area the size of a football field.

Thats true but he doesnt usually use that much firepower, only in desperate situations and I dont see Pun fighting them in a place like an open field where Cyke can let off.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

One regularly gets shot full of holes and keeps moving forward.

Im not sure if hes going to do that againt armour piercing shells and missles.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

One is now at or above Luke Cage's level of strength
The latter two have superhuman reflexes and agility.

You know I havent actually seen any proof hes class 25 and its not in his offical bio. Hes shot people with superhuman reflexes before...shouldnt be a problem with prep.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

There's a chance Castle may kill one of them in the process, but he's not taking them all down.

Dont see why not, Cap is arguably a better tactian than Cyclops and I dont think the prep that Cap used was as extensive as in this thread. Hes survived a death trap from Doom and he was actually taken by suprise.

Hes also taken down......well you guessed it Wolverine, Spiderman and DD. Wolverine sounded like an idiot but Pun being able to get him with a missle is not PIS especially when he can shoot Cap...twice.

Spidermans senses have been shown to work one second before a bomb is triggered...if Spiderman thinks something is a bomb he wont wonder why his SS isnt working..heres an example.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/2306/feat7ssml0.jpg

The beam was rotten and was potentially dangerous but his SS only warned him a second before it was about to break. This principle could be applied to a bomb. In other word his sense wont warn him if a bomb is dormant but will warn him 1 second before its about to explode.


Hes Spider sense has also not worked when in the presence of guns until it was pointed at him and fired. Therefore if he thinks something is a bomb Spiderman knows that his SS wont neccesarily work unless the bomb is triggered.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Spidermans senses have been shown to work one second before a bomb is triggered...if Spiderman thinks something is a bomb he wont wonder why his SS isnt working..heres an example.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/2306/feat7ssml0.jpg

The beam was rotten and was potentially dangerous but his SS only warned him a second before it was about to break. This principle could be applied to a bomb. In other word his sense wont warn him if a bomb is dormant but will warn him 1 second before its about to explode.

Hes Spider sense has also not worked when in the presence of guns until it was pointed at him and fired. Therefore if he thinks something is a bomb Spiderman knows that his SS wont neccesarily work unless the bomb is triggered.
Spiderman ignored his spider sense until it was too late, therefore it was probably going off when he attached himself to it, but it became stronger when it was actually breaking, which goes in line with the way his spider sense works.


More times than not, his spider sense will go off with the mere presence of a bomb, even if it isn't active.

Originally posted by Mindset
Spiderman ignored his spider sense until it was too late, therefore it was probably going off when he attached himself to it, but it became stronger when it was actually breaking, which goes in line with the way his spider sense works.

Sorry mate the scans specifically show him hanging on it without his SS going off and then going off at the last second, so thats just an assumption.


Originally posted by Mindset

More times than not, his spider sense will go off with the mere presence of a bomb, even if it isn't active.

Ive seen examples to the contrary.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Sorry mate the scans specifically show him hanging on it without his SS going off and then going off at the last second, so thats just an assumption.




Ive seen examples to the contrary. Sorry mate, but he explicitly says he ignored his spider sense, which is why he was on a rotten beam.


Really? Post those examples.

Usually Spidey's sense warns him of any danger in his immediate vicinity, whether it's a threat to just him or others. Like if someone who could be considered a threat was near him with a loaded gun, his sense would go off, but he wouldn't know who or what was causing it.

Sorry mate, but he explicitly says he ignored his spider sense, which is why he was on a rotten beam.

Yeah you're right my bad.

Originally posted by Mindset

Really? Post those examples.

Heres one, his sense doesnt warn him until MJ puts the key into the door and triggers the bomd.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3140/feat10sspd4.jpg

Heres an example of people pointing guns at him his SS doesnt go off until they are about to fire.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7823/feat41ss1bl0.jpg

Heres another one, where his SS warns him only just before hes about to break the glass.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/7302/feat28ssdn4.jpg

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats true but he doesnt usually use that much firepower, only in desperate situations and I dont see Pun fighting them in a place like an open field where Cyke can let off.

Im not sure if hes going to do that againt armour piercing shells and missles.

Just as Cyclops wouldn't go all out, Castle more than likely wouldn't either.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You know I havent actually seen any proof hes class 25 and its not in his offical bio. Hes shot people with superhuman reflexes before...shouldnt be a problem with prep.

I've heard it stated by people here before, and it seemed like most people agreed. Can't find any examples myself though.

That's fascinating, but now there's two superhumanly agile X-Men (one of whom can handle being shot repeatedly), and a third X-Man who can shoot things almost as fast as he can look at them.

Castle is screwed.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Dont see why not, Cap is arguably a better tactian than Cyclops and I dont think the prep that Cap used was as extensive as in this thread. Hes survived a death trap from Doom and he was actually taken by suprise.

Hes also taken down......well you guessed it Wolverine, Spiderman and DD. Wolverine sounded like an idiot but Pun being able to get him with a missle is not PIS especially when he can shoot Cap...twice.

You already know what I and a number of people on this forum think of "Confederacy of Dunces". Ennis did all he could to make Punisher look good, while ignoring everything that makes Wolverine, Spider-Man, and Daredevil competent heroes. It was a fun story, but it was chock full of bullshit.

Scan of the Captain America shooting? Was he sniped?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Spidermans senses have been shown to work one second before a bomb is triggered...if Spiderman thinks something is a bomb he wont wonder why his SS isnt working..heres an example.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/2306/feat7ssml0.jpg

The beam was rotten and was potentially dangerous but his SS only warned him a second before it was about to break. This principle could be applied to a bomb. In other word his sense wont warn him if a bomb is dormant but will warn him 1 second before its about to explode.

In the last panel, Spider-Man states that he shouldn't have ignored his Spider-Sense. That means it was going off with ample time for him to react, but he assumed nothing was wrong until the joist actually broke.

So, no-- his Spider-Sense was working fine, but CIS took over.

Originally posted by Mindset

Sorry mate, but he explicitly says he ignored his spider sense, which is why he was on a rotten beam.

Yeah you're right my bad.



Heres one, his sense doesnt warn him until MJ puts the key into the door and triggers the bomd.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3140/feat10sspd4.jpg

Heres an example of people pointing guns at him his SS doesnt go off until they are about to fire.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7823/feat41ss1bl0.jpg

Heres another one, where his SS warns him only just before hes about to break the glass.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/7302/feat28ssdn4.jpg

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah you're right my bad.



Heres one, his sense doesnt warn him until MJ puts the key into the door and triggers the bomd.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3140/feat10sspd4.jpg

Heres an example of people pointing guns at him his SS doesnt go off until they are about to fire.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7823/feat41ss1bl0.jpg

Heres another one, where his SS warns him only just before hes about to break the glass.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/7302/feat28ssdn4.jpg


Scan with the guns, perhaps just artistic expression maybe? His ss should have gone off at the very latest when the guns were pointed at him, it just wasn't drawn like that. Btw, every time his ss goes off it isn't displayed with squiggly lines.

His ss activated before she even turned the key, he just didn't stop her in time.--anyway that would go along with the more times than not. That is in the minority. I assume you in his respect thread on herochat, look through it.

The last scan I don't see how that would help your case. When would his ss go off? It went off when he got near the glass, why would it go off before then, there was no danger?

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Just as Cyclops wouldn't go all out, Castle more than likely wouldn't either.

True but Pun has the advantage of prep.


Originally posted by Eternal Idol

I've heard it stated by people here before, and it seemed like most people agreed. Can't find any examples myself though.

Yeah I know but theres zero proof to back it up. His offical bio on marvel.com does not state he has class 25 ton strength.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

That's fascinating, but now there's two superhumanly agile X-Men (one of whom can handle being shot repeatedly), and a third X-Man who can shoot things almost as fast as he can look at them.

Castle is screwed.

Help me out here. I already stated that hes shot Cap with very little prep, propping yourself up on roof does require 3 weeks prep, so if he has more prep he can shot two.

Wolverine is just picking himself up from armour piercing machine gun bullets and missles.

Just because Cyke is a fast shot does not neccesarily give him the win. Punisher obvoulsy knows this and we know from his track record he can find away around it via traps and tactics

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

You already know what I and a number of people on this forum think of "Confederacy of Dunces". Ennis did all he could to make Punisher look good, while ignoring everything that makes Wolverine, Spider-Man, and Daredevil competent heroes. It was a fun story, but it was chock full of bullshit

Yeah and youve done nothing to prove this.

Pun has shot Cap but he cant shot Wolverine?

Pun has beaten DD before so he cant beat DD?

Im providing scans to porve my case with Spiderman.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Scan of the Captain America shooting? Was he sniped?

Read Punisher and Captain America blood and glory issue 1...yeah he was sniped and shot twice.


Originally posted by Eternal Idol

In the last panel, Spider-Man states that he shouldn't have ignored his Spider-Sense. That means it was going off with ample time for him to react, but he assumed nothing was wrong until the joist actually broke.

So, no-- his Spider-Sense was working fine, but CIS took over.


Oh well anyway hers 3 others.


Heres one, his sense doesnt warn him until MJ puts the key into the door and triggers the bomd.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3140/feat10sspd4.jpg

Heres an example of people pointing guns at him his SS doesnt go off until they are about to fire.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/...eat41ss1bl0.jpg

Heres another one, where his SS warns him only just before hes about to break the glass.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/7302/feat28ssdn4.jpg

Originally posted by Mindset
Scan with the guns, perhaps just artistic expression maybe? His ss should have gone off at the very latest when the guns were pointed at him, it just wasn't drawn like that. Btw, every time his ss goes off it isn't displayed with squiggly lines.

His ss activated before she even turned the key, he just didn't stop her in time.--anyway that would go along with the more times than not. That is in the minority. I assume you in his respect thread on herochat, look through it.



Originally posted by Mindset
The last scan I don't see how that would help your case. When would his ss go off? It went off when he got near the glass, why would it go off before then, there was no danger?

Stationary glass has surpassed heart-disease, car accidents, and cancer as the #1 cause of death in America.

Originally posted by Mindset
Scan with the guns, perhaps just artistic expression maybe? His ss should have gone off at the very latest when the guns were pointed at him, it just wasn't drawn like that. Btw, every time his ss goes off it isn't displayed with squiggly lines.

Nah sorry I think im right in this instance. Heres what the scans say.

"They are pointing guns at me"...nothing happens,..we then see them shot at spiderman he then says "Thats when my head explodes." ie his head didnt explode when they pointed the guns at him.

Originally posted by Mindset

His ss activated before she even turned the key, he just didn't stop her in time.

Actually thats not clear cut, you see her about to put the key in the hole and then we cut to Spiderman by that time the key could have been in the hole.

At any rate there were near the door and his SS did nothing.

Originally posted by Mindset

--anyway that would go along with the more times than not. That is in the minority. I assume you in his respect thread on herochat, look through it.

Spidermans SS varies some showings contradict some dont, there are also many showings that are ambigous as well ie we cant tell specifically what time his SS went off.

Hell sometimes his SS warns him of lying and im pretty sure there are loads of examples when it doesnt.

Originally posted by Mindset

The last scan I don't see how that would help your case. When would his ss go off? It went off when he got near the glass, why would it go off before then, there was no danger?

The point is breaking the glass would be dangerous but it only warned him when he was about to break it, not just by being near it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
True but Pun has the advantage of prep.

Help me out here. I already stated that hes shot Cap with very little prep, propping yourself up on roof does require 3 weeks prep, so if he has more prep he can shot two. Wolverine is just picking himself up from armour piercing machine gun bullets and missles.

Prep isn't going to amount to much if Punisher isn't going to kill them; no armor-piercing rounds or explosives here.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Just because Cyke is a fast shot does not neccesarily give him the win. Punisher obvoulsy knows this and we know from his track record he can find away around it via traps and tactics

Yeah and youve done nothing to prove this. Pun has shot Cap but he cant shot Wolverine? Pun has beaten DD before so he cant beat DD? I'm providing scans to porve my case with Spiderman.

Read Punisher and Captain America blood and glory issue 1...yeah he was sniped and shot twice.

These are veteran X-Men, not friggin' Scooby and the Gang. In addition, Logan has been part of damned near every government agency and superhero team in North America, among other things. If they're going after the Punisher, they'd know better than to just waltz into the crosshairs, and I'm willing to bet Cyclops will form a strategy on the spot as usual.

He sniped an unsuspecting Captain America, held his own against Daredevil a few times and shot him full of tranquilizers once. Big god-damned deal. It's still 3 metas against 1 armed man.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Prep isn't going to amount to much if Punisher isn't going to kill them; no armor-piercing rounds or explosives here.


You're serioulsy arguing that Punisher wouldnt use armour piercing rounds on Wolverine when hes shot him point blank in the face with a shotgun...that make sense to you?

Could we please try to keep it civil because I can see where this is heading.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

These are veteran X-Men, not friggin' Scooby and the Gang. In addition, Logan has been part of damned near every government agency and superhero team in North America, among other things. If they're going after the Punisher, they'd know better than to just waltz into the crosshairs, and I'm willing to bet Cyclops will form a strategy on the spot as usual.

Yes im aware of that but just stating that they wont fall for the trap doesnt mean they cant. You know ive noticed you've started being hostile and im wondering if you're going to resort to insults soon.

I already stated that hes shot Cap and Cap is arguably better than cyclops in tactics.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

He sniped an unsuspecting Captain America,

Well for starters Cap knew that a sniper was there. He wasnt unsuspecting.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

held his own against Daredevil a few times and shot him full of tranquilizers once.

Well if you're gonna be like that he held his own againt him 7 times, he also another ocassion dropped Chimney on DD because he didnt want to shot him. Hes also shot Wolverine before, Hell bushwacker has shot Wolverine twice and Pun has shown himself to be faster than Bushwacker on the draw.




Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Big god-damned deal. It's still 3 metas against 1 armed man.

What do you want me to say? It doesnt take 3 weeks prep to snipe Captain America, if Pun has loads more prep its not illogical for him to do much better.

I guess if Dr Doom is impressed by Puns smarts and The High Evolutionary has failed to kill Pun its obvoulsy irrelevant. I guess gunning down Cap and outsmarting him on another ocassion and having better tactical skills than Cap is all irrelevant....big deal. Nevermind im quite certain your going to accuse me of being a fanboy in your next post.

Oh and to add to the list Punisher has beaten The Reavers as well, he had micropchips help and since hes gets his help in this thread it doesnt matter, I guess thats a big deal as well.

Cant remember the exact details but didnt The Revears take on the X-men and seriously **** up Wolverine?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You're serioulsy arguing that Punisher wouldnt use armour piercing rounds on Wolverine when hes shot him point blank in the face with shotgun...that make sense to you?

You obvoulsy know that Pun would use armour pierecing round, why are you know lying and pretending that its illogical for him to use it? Could we please try to keep it civil because I can see where this is heading.

If you're seriously arguing that Cyclops wouldn't simply blast Castle into submission, then yes, that's what I'm arguing. Besides, it doesn't make sense for Castle to use armor-piercing rounds against Wolverine-- they're not going through that adamantium, and they'll go right through the rest of him. He'd want to use hollow-points to maximize the damage, and those would have to be fired at closer range from a smaller caliber weapon.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yes im aware of that but just stating that they wont fall for the trap doesnt mean they cant. I already stated that hes shot Cap and Cap is arguably better than cyclops in prep.

Cyclops is well-known for developing plans on the spot, and lately, he doesn't seem to have too big a problem with killing. So, what's to stop Cyclops from blasting Frank, his weapons and volleys, or his surroundings away?

Well for starters Cap knew that a sniper was there. He wasnt unsuspecting. Did he just find out, or did he go there knowing there was a sniper in the area?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well if you're gonna be like that he held hiw own againt him 7 times, he also another ocassion dropped Chimney on DD because he didnt want to shot him. Hes also shot Wolverine before, Hell bushwacker has shot Wolverine twice and Pun has shown himself to be faster than Bushwacker on the draw.

What do you want me to say. It doesnt take 3 weeks prep to snipe Captain America, if Pun has loads more prep its not illogical for him to do much better.

He held his own against Daredevil in a one-on-one hand-to-hand scenario. This is a 3 on 1. Assuming Castle has been disarmed and is down to just one X-Man, he's still screwed. Cyclops doesn't have to go hand-to-hand, Wolverine outclasses him in just about every way and would still have his claws and healing factor to fall back on, and Beast is physically above Castle's league.

Extra prep time isn't going to count for much after a certain point. If he's going to snipe them, he's going to choose his weapon and his location. Simply having more time isn't going to improve his chances of sniping them.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I guess if Dr Doom is impressed by Puns smarts and The High Evolutionary has failed to kill Pun its obvoulsy irrelevant.
It is irrelevant, because they think differently. Both Doom and High Evolutionary are scientists, not soldiers. For all their scientific know-how, they couldn't match or even predict Castle's combat strategy and evasive maneuvers. That, and they obviously underestimated him, being the egomaniacs they are.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Could we please try to keep it civil because I can see where this is heading. You know ive noticed you've started being hostile and im wondering if you're going to resort to insults soon.

I didn't mean to sound hostile. It's just the way I express myself. Take it with a grain of salt or a spoonful of sugar. Your choice.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

It is irrelevant, because they think differently. Both Doom and High Evolutionary are scientists, not soldiers. For all their scientific know-how, they couldn't match or even predict Castle's combat strategy and evasive maneuvers. That, and they obviously underestimated him, being the egomaniacs they are.

Look I dont mean to be rude or anything but if you're going to say stuff like that could you not assume you're right? Almost everything you said in that post was incorrect. What really gets me is the statement about Dr Doom not being a soldier and for him not being able to predict Frank combat strategy because hes a scientist.

It makes me think you are quite new to marvel comics because making a statement like that is like saying Spiderman is a vigilante and doesnt know anything about Chemistry. You have also made statements about Punisher as a fact that are clearly wrong and im not talking about opinions like wether he can beat Wolverine im talking about facts like its out of character for him to use a battle-helicopter or exoskeleton. Its like the only Punisher you know is Einnis and PWJ.

Maybe you should try in future saying "As far as I know" or "It seems to me."

I'll respond to the rest later im busy right now.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Nah sorry I think im right in this instance. Heres what the scans say.

"They are pointing guns at me"...nothing happens,..we then see them shot at spiderman he then says "Thats when my head explodes." ie his head didnt explode when they pointed the guns at him.



Actually thats not clear cut, you see her about to put the key in the hole and then we cut to Spiderman by that time the key could have been in the hole.

At any rate there were near the door and his SS did nothing.



Spidermans SS varies some showings contradict some dont, there are also many showings that are ambigous as well ie we cant tell specifically what time his SS went off.

Hell sometimes his SS warns him of lying and im pretty sure there are loads of examples when it doesnt.



The point is breaking the glass would be dangerous but it only warned him when he was about to break it, not just by being near it. His ss would have gone off before the bullets even left the chamber, usually his ss would have gone off as soon as the guns were drawn. The artist sometimes don't draw the squiggly lines when the ss is going off until Spiderman actually pays attention to it, you can see this in the first scan you posted with the rotten rafter. His head exploded because the scale of danger drastically elevated.

There wasn't any danger until the key was in the hole.

His ss would only warn him when he got near to breaking the glass, before that there wasn't any danger.

No, the ss doesn't vary that much. There are times where it should have worked, but shouldn't, based on the norm, but that's why we go by the majority of showings.

Originally posted by Mindset
His ss would have gone off before the bullets even left the chamber, usually his ss would have gone off as soon as the guns were drawn. The artist sometimes don't draw the squiggly lines when the ss is going off until Spiderman actually pays attention to it, you can see this in the first scan you posted with the rotten rafter. His head exploded because the scale of danger drastically elevated.

The picture clearly shows his SS not going off when they pointed it at him. Im going to go by what was actually drawn, instead of trying to read the artist mind when what happened on-panel contradicts what you said. *shrug*

Originally posted by Mindset

There wasn't any danger until the key was in the hole.

Thats the point, and it didnt warn him prior to that.

Originally posted by Mindset


His ss would only warn him when he got near to breaking the glass, before that there wasn't any danger.

Again can we actually go by whats drawn in the picture? His SS didnt warn him until he was about to break the glass.

Originally posted by Mindset

No, the ss doesn't vary that much. There are times where it should have worked, but shouldn't, based on the norm, but that's why we go by the majority of showings.

and the majority of his showings in herochat dont disprove or prove my case actually.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Look I dont mean to be rude or anything but if you're going to say stuff like that could you not assume you're right? Almost everything you said in that post was incorrect.

Maybe you should try in future saying "As far as I know" or "It seems to me."
Obviously, I disagree, and I feel just about everything you said in your post was wrong. In a debate, you take a side. This is a comic book debate forum, and most of what is posted here are opinions, regardless of how accurate they may be to the actual. People base their opinions around what said character has been shown to be capable of. If you turned in a persuasive essay to your professor using phrases like "As far as I know" or "It seems to me" for every point you're trying to argue, you would either get laughed at or reprimanded. Therefore, I'm only going to use phrases like that when I'm not fully sold on what I may be arguing. Also, while I did use some profanity, I haven't personally insulted you. So let's be a little more thick-skinned, yeah?
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What really gets me is the statement about Dr Doom not being a soldier and for him not being able to predict Frank combat strategy because hes a scientist.

It makes me think you are quite new to marvel comics because making a statement like that is like saying Spiderman is a vigilante and doesnt know anything about Chemistry. You have also made statements about Punisher as a fact that are clearly wrong and im not talking about opinions like wether he can beat Wolverine im talking about facts like its out of character for him to use a battle-helicopter or exoskeleton. Its like the only Punisher you know is Einnis and PWJ.
Wrong again, chief. I've read War Zone, Punisher MAX, War Journal, and a few team-ups. I haven't read some of his early appearances in Spider-Man or Daredevil, and I'm not touching that garbage in which he dies and becomes a ghostly demonhunter. I never argued against him using military chopper, but an exoskeleton is pushing it. Shit like that should not be argued as a standard Punisher weapon or tactic.

Now, your Spider-Man analogy is faulty because Spider-Man is both a vigilante AND a chemist. Dr. Doom and the High Evolutionary aren't both scientists and experienced military officers. That's not to say they couldn't develop a decent strategy; they're still much smarter than the Punisher, but the latter beat them at his game. The Punisher's military strategy is flat out better than both Dr. Doom's or the High Evolutionary's. There is no comparison. Think about it like this: One could make a case that Bruce Banner is overall smarter than Iron Man or vice versa, but Banner ain't matching Stark's technology and Stark won't know nearly as much about gamma radiation as Banner.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol


Wrong again, chief. I've read War Zone, Punisher MAX, War Journal, and a few team-ups.

Well Punisher Max isnt even canon so that out of it. Now you're left with Warzone and PWJ. I dont know how many issues of those you have read. PWJ from what year?

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

I never argued against him using military chopper, but an exoskeleton is pushing it. Shit like that should not be argued as a standard Punisher weapon or tactic.

Im sure you did but I cant be arsed to find what you said exactly.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol


Now, your Spider-Man analogy is faulty because Spider-Man is both a vigilante AND a chemist. Dr. Doom and the High Evolutionary aren't both scientists and experienced military officers.

*groan* You missed the point, the point is you dont even know that Doom has knowledge in that area. The point of The Spiderman analogy is that everybody knows that Spiderman has knowldege in chemsistry and everybody knows that Doom has military knowledge thats basic shit. To come out with something like that is shocking.

Both Dr Doom and HE have lots of miltary experience. Its also actually pointless bringing that up anyway because you dont neccesarily have to have specific miliatry experience you just have to be smart.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The picture clearly shows his SS not going off when they pointed it at him. Im going to go by what was actually drawn, instead of trying to read the artist mind when what happened on-panel contradicts what you said. *shrug*



Thats the point, and it didnt warn him prior to that.



Again can we actually go by whats drawn in the picture? His SS didnt warn him until he was about to break the glass.



and the majority of his showings in herochat dont disprove or prove my case actually. In the scan with the rafter his ss isn't shown until it actually breaks, but obviously his ss was going off before that. You're seriously telling me his ss will only go off when the bullets were fired? That goes against against his ss works and most of its showings...hmm, looks like I was right:

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/6576/feat41ss2ra4.jpg
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/827/feat41ss3mc1.jpg
He still feels a low buzzing, the ss, but it is not drawn, they didn't even have their guns drawn on him, his ss was buzzing from the mere fact that they were looking for him, also notice the squiggly lines are not shown.

"I notice the buzzing increases as they fire" Also what I said, the stronger the danger, the more his ss is felt.


I'll give you the key one, but we don't know if his ss went on before or after the key was in.

I was going off what was shown in the picture, what are you talking about? His ss warned him of the danger of breaking the glass, there wouldn't be any danger besides that to warn him of. When he gets close to the glass it goes off, now why would it go off before he got close?

The respect thread shows he has ample time to avoid danger. Such as dodging bullets w/o seeing them, sensing if a room is dangerous, knowing if someone has a gun pointed at him w/o him even seeing them, etc.

Doom did stage a militaristic coup of Latveria, so he obviously has militaristic knowledge that can compete with others.

Doom can do anything.

Originally posted by KingD19
Doom did stage a militaristic coup of Latveria, so he obviously has militaristic knowledge that can compete with others.

LOL exactly and before that he trained the peasents to fight the previous rulers army (doom was also a boy at the time). For starters his actual occupation is a would-be-conqueror as well, his very job description demands he knows military knowledge and to state that Doom doesnt know military knowledge is ridiculous.

High Evolutinary also trained The Knights of Wundagore in battle tactics to defend their base on earth and he trained and equipped his purifiers.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well Punisher Max isnt even canon so that out of it. Now you're left with Warzone and PWJ. I dont know how many issues of those you have read. PWJ from what year?

I read all of War Zone, pretty sure I read most if not all of the original War Journal, and have read a decent amount of current War Journal. I dropped it shortly after Chaykin replaced Olivetti on art because it was so piss-poor and ugly. Can't tell you the actual years or volume numbers though.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im sure you did but I cant be arsed to find what you said exactly.

That's 'cause I didn't.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*groan* You missed the point, the point is you dont even know that Doom has knowledge in that area. The point of The Spiderman analogy is that everybody knows that Spiderman has knowldege in chemsistry and everybody knows that Doom has military knowledge thats basic shit. To come out with something like that is shocking.

No, you're just ignoring the point and grasping for straws. I never said they didn't have military knowledge, I said they didn't have military experience. With out that experience, that knowledge is just that-- basic shit, not expertise. Everybody knows Spider-Man has knowledge AND experience in chemistry because he's been working in that field since high school, maybe even earlier. Doom has never been a soldier or an officer, so all he can do with that basic knowledge is make educated guesses. Doesn't prevent him from overlooking some of the details he wouldn't have missed if he'd actually had any military experience.

It's probably only really shocking to you, really.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Both Dr Doom and HE have lots of miltary experience. Its also actually pointless bringing that up anyway because you dont neccesarily have to have specific miliatry experience you just have to be smart.

I call bullshit. How many times have Doom or HE actually led and were apart of a tactical strike or defending a post? How much field work have they put in? Probably not many, because they've either sent Doombots or mutates to do their work for them.

And being smart doesn't always equate to skill. Giving someone a book on home improvement to study will not turn them into friggin' master electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc. You need both knowledge and experience, otherwise, you're bound to f*** up quite a few times.

That's not to say they can't come up with a decent plan and succeed, but they will overlook things that Frank, as a soldier, will not.


So, again, the X-Men will beat Frank.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher gets 3 weeks prep. Can use Microchip (assume he didnt die and for some strange reason are still friends) and other no-name allies for help, Punisher does not have current hi-tech stash but his old stash from back in the day with Micro.

After the 3 weeks the Xmen start to hunt him down and cannot get any outside help apart from themselves. I knew this thread was riddicerus from the title.

Originally posted by Mekrob
I knew this thread was riddicerus from the title.
Knowing the author didn't help matters any, did it?

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
I read all of War Zone, pretty sure I read most if not all of the original War Journal, and have read a decent amount of current War Journal. I dropped it shortly after Chaykin replaced Olivetti on art because it was so piss-poor and ugly. Can't tell you the actual years or volume numbers though.

Ok but it seems im always filling you in on encounters such as with Cap, Doom, Daredevil etc.


Originally posted by Eternal Idol

No, you're just ignoring the point and grasping for straws. I never said they didn't have military knowledge, I said they didn't have military experience.

So lets see if I can get this straight. You quote my post which talks about knowledge but you ignored this part of the post that talks about experience.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Both Dr Doom and HE have lots of miltary experience. Its also actually pointless bringing that up anyway because you dont neccesarily have to have specific miliatry experience you just have to be smart.

Furthermore you didnt even specify in your orginial post. You said that they were not soldiers that obvoulsy involves military knowledge and experience which is why I addressed both knowledge and experience. I would also assume that you would have included actually leading soldiers and giving them battle tactics.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

With out that experience, that knowledge is just that-- basic shit, not expertise. Everybody knows Spider-Man has knowledge AND experience in chemistry because he's been working in that field since high school, maybe even earlier. Doom has never been a soldier or an officer, so all he can do with that basic knowledge is make educated guesses. Doesn't prevent him from overlooking some of the details he wouldn't have missed if he'd actually had any military experience.

It's probably only really shocking to you, really.

and again for the 100th time you're wrong.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone

I call bullshit. How many times have Doom or HE actually led and were apart of a tactical strike or defending a post? How much field work have they put in? Probably not many, because they've either sent Doombots or mutates to do their work for them.

Doom spent years as a young buy fighting The Ruler of latveria. He was also The Leader of the supervillains in Secret War and that didnt just involve telling people what to do it involved kicking arse. He didnt just use Doombots to otherthrow the ruler as far as I can remember he kicked butt, hes got experience as a soldier and a commander.

High Evolutinary trained and equipped his New Man to protect their base on mount wundagrore. The fact that the New Men were succesful in protetcing the base and he actually trained them speaks volumes. The New Men were at Mount Wundagore for years. The fact that he trained and equipped his Purifiers and they were causing on havoc on earth speaks volumes. If you can train soliders and give them succesful training and tactics then you can think like a soldier...obvoulsy.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

And being smart doesn't always equate to skill. Giving someone a book on home improvement to study will not turn them into friggin' master electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc. You need both knowledge and experience, otherwise, you're bound to f*** up quite a few times.

That's not to say they can't come up with a decent plan and succeed, but they will overlook things that Frank, as a soldier, will not.

Well first of all that logic fails. Kingpin has zero military knowledge and experience and is a threat to the Punisher. Jigsaw has zero military knowledge and experience and is a threat to the Punisher.

Doom has extensive experience as a soldier and military leader.

HE at the very least has lots of military knowledge and his soldiers have been effective at what they were doing.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Knowing the author didn't help matters any, did it?

Thats exactly what im talking about. You've basically twisted what ive said around and you've got basic facts blantantly wrong, but somehow when I actually have some basis for what im saying in comics I have to take shit from you.

Which is why i said if you're going to make a statement like its a fact at least get it right otherwise its just looks hypoctritical. If you're gonna insult me at least have the decency not to blantantly lie and twist what im saying and gets facts wrong.

Why are you arguing with yourself?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok but it seems im always filling you in on encounters such as with Cap, Doom, Daredevil etc.

No, you regurgitate them in an attempt to give the Punisher the win. Punisher escaped Doom, but hasn't beat him. He's done well against Daredevil a few times, but Daredevil still gets a majority. Shooting Captain America isn't impossible, and isn't a feat exclusive to the Punisher.

How does any of this show he'll beat these 3 X-Men?
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So lets see if I can get this straight. You quote my post which talks about knowledge but you ignored this part of the post that talks about experience.
No, chief -- I quoted the rest of it further down along the page.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Furthermore you didnt even specify in your orginial post. You said that they were not soldiers that obvoulsy involves military knowledge and experience which is why I addressed both knowledge and experience. I would also assume that you would have included actually leading soldiers and giving them battle tactics.
Did Doom give to them an actual strategy, or did he just tell them to storm the castle and kill everyone in their way. There's a huge difference.

Anyhow, I'm thinking Castle would've taken pre-Doom Latveria by himself. biscuits

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Doom spent years as a young buy fighting The Ruler of latveria. He was also The Leader of the supervillains in Secret War and that didnt just involve telling people what to do it involved kicking arse. He didnt just use Doombots to otherthrow the ruler as far as I can remember he kicked butt, hes got experience as a soldier and a commander. Doom has extensive experience as a soldier and military leader. HE at the very least has lots of military knowledge and his soldiers have been effective at what they were doing.

High Evolutinary trained and equipped his New Man to protect their base on mount wundagrore. The fact that the New Men were succesful in protetcing the base and he actually trained them speaks volumes. The New Men were at Mount Wundagore for years. The fact that he trained and equipped his Purifiers and they were causing on havoc on earth speaks volumes. If you can train soliders and give them succesful training and tactics then you can think like a soldier...obvoulsy.
No, he doesn't. He lead a peasant's revolt against a country way behind the times, after receiving his armor. He's picked up a few things over the years as a dictator, but that doesn't put him on Castle's level of military know-how.

Knights of Wundagore = yawn
What have they done again? AS FAR AS I KNOW, it was Magnus the Sorcerer who trained them, and HE just gave them really cool shit to fight with.

Escaping Doom and HE once doesn't give Frank the win over the X-Men anyhow, especially since they clearly underestimated him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well first of all that logic fails. Kingpin has zero military knowledge and experience and is a threat to the Punisher. Jigsaw has zero military knowledge and experience and is a threat to the Punisher.
They're threats because, much like Doom and HE, they have the power and/or resources to execute their plans. Castle usually kicks around Jigsaw and is a pain in the ass to the Kingpin's criminal empire. Castle is still a better strategist than them, which is why he was able to escape Doom in the first place.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and again for the 100th time you're wrong.
Really? I don't know about that. You have have a long track record of being wrong, changing your original arguments when you've been proved wrong, and acting like you were simply playing devil's advocate to try and save face. I knew that about you before I became an active poster, back when you went by Alfheim. You know, if I took the time to look, I could actually find several posts from different members to support that.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats exactly what im talking about. You've basically twisted what ive said around and you've got basic facts blantantly wrong, but somehow when I actually have some basis for what im saying in comics I have to take shit from you.

Which is why i said if you're going to make a statement like its a fact at least get it right otherwise its just looks hypoctritical. If you're gonna insult me at least have the decency not to blantantly lie and twist what im saying and gets facts wrong.
nopity

Cry me a friggin' river.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
No, you regurgitate them in an attempt to give the Punisher the win. Punisher escaped Doom, but hasn't beat him. He's done well against Daredevil a few times, but Daredevil still gets a majority. Shooting Captain America isn't impossible, and isn't a feat exclusive to the Punisher.

How does any of this show he'll beat these 3 X-Men?

No, chief -- I quoted the rest of it further down along the page.


Did Doom give to them an actual strategy, or did he just tell them to storm the castle and kill everyone in their way. There's a huge difference.

Anyhow, I'm thinking Castle would've taken pre-Doom Latveria by himself. biscuits


No, he doesn't. He lead a peasant's revolt against a country way behind the times, after receiving his armor. He's picked up a few things over the years as a dictator, but that doesn't put him on Castle's level of military know-how.

Knights of Wundagore = yawn
What have they done again? AS FAR AS I KNOW, it was Magnus the Sorcerer who trained them, and HE just gave them really cool shit to fight with.

Escaping Doom and HE once doesn't give Frank the win over the X-Men anyhow, especially since they clearly underestimated him.


They're threats because, much like Doom and HE, they have the power and/or resources to execute their plans. Castle usually kicks around Jigsaw and is a pain in the ass to the Kingpin's criminal empire. Castle is still a better strategist than them, which is why he was able to escape Doom in the first place.


Really? I don't know about that. You have have a long track record of being wrong, changing your original arguments when you've been proved wrong, and acting like you were simply playing devil's advocate to try and save face. I knew that about you before I became an active poster, back when you went by Alfheim. You know, if I took the time to look, I could actually find several posts from different members to support that.

nopity

Cry me a friggin' river.

*shrug* Your wasting my time. Not going to respond to that post so you can waste my time even further. Hell you even want to argue that Pun wouldnt use armour pierceing bullets and explosives. If you cant see thats a retarded thing to say then theres really no point.




Originally posted by Mindset
In the scan with the rafter his ss isn't shown until it actually breaks, but obviously his ss was going off before that. You're seriously telling me his ss will only go off when the bullets were fired? That goes against against his ss works and most of its showings...hmm, looks like I was right:

Thats not what I said, I said before they are about to fire.

Originally posted by Mindset

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/6576/feat41ss2ra4.jpg
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/827/feat41ss3mc1.jpg
He still feels a low buzzing, the ss, but it is not drawn, they didn't even have their guns drawn on him, his ss was buzzing from the mere fact that they were looking for him, also notice the squiggly lines are not shown.

"I notice the buzzing increases as they fire" Also what I said, the stronger the danger, the more his ss is felt.

Yeah but before that there was no buzzing in his head prior to them shooting. Like I said his SS is not always consistent.

Originally posted by Mindset


I'll give you the key one, but we don't know if his ss went on before or after the key was in.

She was about to put the key in the hole, we then cut to Spiderman. Time didnt pause when we cut to Spiderman so theres a decent chance when we are looking at Spiderman the key is already in the hole. We then go to the next panel and shes about to turn the key.


Originally posted by Mindset

I was going off what was shown in the picture, what are you talking about? His ss warned him of the danger of breaking the glass, there wouldn't be any danger besides that to warn him of. When he gets close to the glass it goes off, now why would it go off before he got close?

Thats my whole point it didnt warm him just by being near it. For example if the window had explosives on it, his SS would not have warned him until he was about to break the glass. So in other words if hes near explosives his SS wont neccesarily go off until before the bomb is trigggered or at least just before hes about to touch it, which is not what happened in COD. Punisher stopped Spiderman before he could even move, so his SS woulndt have gone off if they were bombs anyway.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=10223326
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=10223342



Originally posted by Mindset

The respect thread shows he has ample time to avoid danger. Such as dodging bullets w/o seeing them, sensing if a room is dangerous, knowing if someone has a gun pointed at him w/o him even seeing them, etc.

Like I said some of them do, and some of them are vague you dont specifically know at what time he was warned you just see him dodging bullets. I guess you could be right about specifically dodging bullets but his SS varies over different situations

Theres also an example of his SS warning him just before hes about to bump into somebody. Note just before, his SS didnt buzz by the guy just being there it only buzzed just before the guy become a potential threat. This can be applied to an explosive, a bomb nearby wont neccsarily warn him until he is about to touch or before its triggered.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*shrug* Your wasting my time. Not going to respond to that post so you can waste my time even further. Hell you even want to argue that Pun wouldnt use armour pierceing bullets and explosives. If you cant see thats a retarded thing to say then theres really no point.


Translation:

"Oh yeah?! Well... Screw you guys-- I'm going home!"

I'd forgotten how you also back out when you can't really argue against what's been said. Classic Alfheim. Not like you'd make a convincing argument, anyhow.

What's retarded is your downplaying of Cyclops' capabilities in this fight and your deliberate ignorance of Castle's beliefs and character. Cyclops hasn't really had a problem hurting or killing people to get the job done; Punisher has always had a problem killing anyone who isn't a violent criminal, drug dealer, or an accomplice to the former. Even in Confederacy of Dunces, the Punisher acknowledges that Spider-Man, Wolverine, and Daredevil aren't guilty of any wrongdoing by his own judgment, and we all know Castle doesn't willingly kill anyone but the guilty.

The Punisher more than likely wouldn't use armor-piercing bullets or explosives against these three because:

a) he's fighting people who aren't bulletproof. Armor-Piercing ammo would be overdoing it.

b) Armor-piercing rounds won't be anymore effective against Wolverine because they would go right though his flesh and won't do a damned thing against his adamantium.

c) it would be more practical to stick to hollow-points than armor-piercing rounds, because they expand upon impact and usually stay lodged in the body, thus doing more damage.

d) Explosives compromise the lives of the X-Men, the lives of any bystanders, and possibly even the integrity of his surroundings. If it were a one-on-one fight with Wolverine, then it would be a different story and Frank could go to town with the explosives. You argue against that, and you ignore the character's principles.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Translation:

"Oh yeah?! Well... Screw you guys-- I'm going home!"

I'd forgotten how you also back out when you can't really argue against what's been said. Classic Alfheim. Not like you'd make a convincing argument, anyhow.

No I dont like debtaing with people who assume that everything they say is correct and try to find something negative about everything I say. The thing is posters like you dont understand that I dont actually have a a problem with people disagreeing with me, what I have problem is with people who are argumentative....that is just a waste of time. I havent told Mindset I was ignoring him.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

What's retarded is your downplaying of Cyclops' capabilities in this fight and your deliberate ignorance of Castle's beliefs and character. Cyclops hasn't really had a problem hurting or killing people to get the job done;


Yeah I know that, thats something you assumed I hadnt considered.


Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Punisher has always had a problem killing anyone who isn't a violent criminal, drug dealer, or an accomplice to the former. Even in Confederacy of Dunces, the Punisher acknowledges that Spider-Man, Wolverine, and Daredevil aren't guilty of any wrongdoing by his own judgment, and we all know Castle doesn't willingly kill anyone but the guilty.

Still doesnt change anything. Please use your head and figure out why. Since you want to argue about every last detail i'll let you figure it out for yourself.


Originally posted by Eternal Idol


The Punisher more than likely wouldn't use armor-piercing bullets or explosives against these three because:

a) he's fighting people who aren't bulletproof. Armor-Piercing ammo would be overdoing it.

b) Armor-piercing rounds won't be anymore effective against Wolverine because they would go right though his flesh and won't do a damned thing against his adamantium.

c) it would be more practical to stick to hollow-points than armor-piercing rounds, because they expand upon impact and usually stay lodged in the body, thus doing more damage.

d) Explosives compromise the lives of the X-Men, the lives of any bystanders, and possibly even the integrity of his surroundings. If it were a one-on-one fight with Wolverine, then it would be a different story and Frank could go to town with the explosives. You argue against that, and you ignore the character's principles.

Im really concerned with you saying he cant use that stuff because he doesnt want to kill.

Concerning their effectiveness and CIS you may have a point about armour pierecing bullets but as usual you assume your logic behind him not using explosives is sound logic without thinking why its not conclusive. Since you want to be argumentative you figure it out.

Punisher is good, no one is disputing that, but we're talking about the combined knowledge, combat experience, training (and X-men are extremely well trained) AND teamwork of -THREE- SUPER POWERED combatants against ONE man with a few guns and explosives and a bit of prep.

Is there even a question of who'll win here...? -_-

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Punisher is good, no one is disputing that, but we're talking about the combined knowledge, combat experience, training (and X-men are extremely well trained) AND teamwork of -THREE- SUPER POWERED combatants against ONE man with a few guns and explosives and a bit of prep.

Is there even a question of who'll win here...? -_-

Yes but as I stated earlier hes beaten Captain America with very little prep. All he did was snipe him, adding 3 weeks of prep plus help from Microchip and anybody else makes up for that.

It could also be argued that in terms of tactics hes better than Captain America.

Hes also survived a deathtrap from Dr Doom and hidden from him. Dr Doom was analysing probabilities and Punisher had to use tactics to escape from him and actually lured Dr Doom out of hiding.

Punisher and Microchip have also beaten three of The Reavers with something like an hour or at least several hours of prep. Punisher and Micro were unprepared. Three Reavers most likley would kill Beast and the very least give Wolverine one hell of a bad time.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone


Three Reavers most likley would kill Beast and the very least give Wolverine one hell of a bad time.

Nah, they've been trouble for him just once before, I think. I do recall another another comic, in which he's ambushed and critically injured by Lady Deathstrike and about 3 or 4 Reavers. As soon as he got Katie Power to safety, he took them all apart without much effort. Maybe Jinzin, Srank, or B.Hammer would know the the title and issue number. Not sure how Beast would do against them, especially now that I'm hearing about his supposed upgrades.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Nah, they've been trouble for him just once before, I think. I do recall another another comic, in which he's ambushed and critically injured by Lady Deathstrike and about 3 or 4 Reavers.

They were at most three others. When Wolverine actually fights them we only see two others but that might have been because he killed one of them or the writer forgot. Anyway most of those other Reavers werent on the level of the ones Pun had to fight with the exception of LD.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

As soon as he got Katie Power to safety, he took them all apart without much effort.

He was badly injured before he met Katie and he had to use tactics to beat The Reavers he didnt just walk up to them and kick their arses. In a straight fight he would have got killed. Hell I even think Energizer helped him get to saftey.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Not sure how Beast would do against them, especially now that I'm hearing about his supposed upgrades.


Again there is no proof hes class 25 ton strength and his official bio doenst state that he has class 25. Wolverine was doing fine against a pissed off upgraded Beast. Beast would get slaugthered.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
They were at most three others. When Wolverine actually fights them we only see two others but that might have been because he killed one of them or the writer forgot. Anyway most of those other Reavers werent on the level of the ones Pun had to fight with the exception of LD.

What? There're only about six Reavers that I know about, and they all have more or less the same capabilities. How are the one the Punisher fought tougher than the ones Wolverine fought?

There's Cole, Macon, and Reese (whom together with Deathstrike, ambushed Wolverine), and then there's Bonebreaker, Skullbuster, and Pretty Boy.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He was badly injured before he met Katie and he had to use tactics to beat The Reavers he didnt just walk up to them and kick their arses. In a straight fight he would have got killed. Hell I even think Energizer helped him get to saftey.

Right, he:

1) was ambushed
2) got critically wounded
3) escaped Deathstrike and the Reavers
4) got Katie Power to safety, and
5) then completely demolished everyone as soon as he got in a little time to heal and get back in his right mind.

I let my boss borrow one of my Wolverine essentials hardcovers, and the fat bastard hasn't returned it yet, or I'd reference it. I think you're right about Katie helping him out a bit, but if I do remember correctly it was once, and it was pretty minor in the big picture.

My question to you here is, if you're giving the Punisher credit for his prep and spur-of-the-moment strategy, why are you discrediting Wolverine in his fight against the Reavers for using on-the-spot tactics?

Cyclops, Wolverine, and Beast would develop some type of game plan if they're going after Castle, and they don't need prep to do it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again there is no proof hes class 25 ton strength and his official bio doenst state that he has class 25. Wolverine was doing fine against a pissed off upgraded Beast. Beast would get slaugthered.

I know there's a lack of proof, which is why I'd said SUPPOSED upgrades. Still, a fight against Wolverine is one thing, and you can't really compare that to how he would do against the Reavers.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
What? There're only about six Reavers that I know about, and they all have more or less the same capabilities. How are the one the Punisher fought tougher than the ones Wolverine fought?

There's Cole, Macon, and Reese (whom together with Deathstrike, ambushed Wolverine), and then there's Bonebreaker, Skullbuster, and Pretty Boy.


For starters some of them pack more firepower (the tractor one). Pretty box has arms that he can extend, and those are useful because he can use those to sneak around corners and go through narrow spaces, he also has eyes on his arms so he can see what hes doing. It might not help in a direct confrontation but it would have helped in that situation.




Originally posted by Eternal Idol


Right, he:

1) was ambushed
2) got critically wounded
3) escaped Deathstrike and the Reavers
4) got Katie Power to safety, and
5) then completely demolished everyone as soon as he got in a little time to heal and get back in his right mind.

I let my boss borrow one of my Wolverine essentials hardcovers, and the fat bastard hasn't returned it yet, or I'd reference it. I think you're right about Katie helping him out a bit, but if I do remember correctly it was once, and it was pretty minor in the big picture.


He didnt get Katie Power to safety she got him to safety. I think the fact they actually got into a cab helped them quite signifcantly,


Originally posted by Eternal Idol

My question to you here is, if you're giving the Punisher credit for his prep and spur-of-the-moment strategy, why are you discrediting Wolverine in his fight against the Reavers for using on-the-spot tactics?


I am im simply stating that there were cirumstances to it. We also need to take into account the Reavers that Punisher fought were more verastile and had more firepower.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Cyclops, Wolverine, and Beast would develop some type of game plan if they're going after Castle, and they don't need prep to do it.


They might do they might not.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Still, a fight against Wolverine is one thing, and you can't really compare that to how he would do against the Reavers.

Yeah you're right so lets start saying its ABC logic. Lets not evaluate the evidence that we have at present. I mean he doesnt have adamantuim claws or a HF as good as wolvrines and has much weaker fighting skills. Hes inferior to Wolverine in alot of aspects obvouly he'll kick their butts.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He didnt get Katie Power to safety she got him to safety. I think the fact they actually got into a cab helped them quite signifcantly,

She recognized him, and got him in a cab because he was obviously hurt and in feral mode.

When Deathstrike and the Reavers caught up, he got her out of the cab. In fact, I remember him picking her up like a ragdoll and running off to safety at least half the issue. Anything else she did aside from keep him company and try and calm him down, I don't remember.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I am im simply stating that there were cirumstances to it. We also need to take into account the Reavers that Punisher fought were more verastile and had more firepower.

I had to check Wikipedia and a few comic sites for this one, and they say Punisher fought Reese, Bonebreaker, and Pretty Boy. Reese was there for the Wolverine fight. Bonebreaker is the only one of the three who packs any extra heat. Frank still needed Microchip to bail his ass out, and from what I've read about it, they almost got killed.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
They might do they might not.
In the opening post, you specified that the X-Men were coming after the Punisher. Even without preparation, they will formulate a strategy going in as a team or individually. To think otherwise is lowballing them.

Furthermore, if they can strike him anywhere at anytime after Castle's 3 weeks of prep are up, that means setting up traps would be pretty useless.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah you're right so lets start saying its ABC logic. Lets not evaluate the evidence that we have at present. I mean he doesnt have adamantuim claws or a HF as good as wolvrines and has much weaker fighting skills. Hes inferior to Wolverine in alot of aspects obvouly he'll kick their butts.

Now you're selling Beast short. While on the Avengers, Beast was shown to match the speed and agility of Captain America, a guy who routinely dodged bullets when not blocking them with his shield. That was before his further mutation/upgrades. He's just as fast and agile as Wolverine, if not more. He's smarter and even stronger than both too, even if we don't know by how big a margin.

Wolverine's got skills, damage soak/durability, and can inflict more damage. While I think he'd win a fight between the two of them, it's not like Wolverine's got Beast beat in all categories. Beast would do fine against one or more the Reavers, WITHOUT PREP, unlike Castle.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
After the 3 weeks the Xmen start to hunt him down and cannot get any outside help apart from themselves.

Basically means that they know who they're dealing with. Prep or no the only chance that Punisher will actually win this one is if he does the ol' big bomb trap.

I really don't see these 3 X-men as falling for that anytime soon. They'd also have to be monumentally stupid to allow Frank to snipe em. Avoiding a sniper is easy enough, especially for people of the caliber these 3 are. They'll also know that Frank will prolly use either bombs or snipering to take em down. They'll adjust to compensate.

I mean, at most he can prolly take down one of them. But 3 at once? Highly doubtful.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
She recognized him, and got him in a cab because he was obviously hurt and in feral mode.

When Deathstrike and the Reavers caught up, he got her out of the cab. In fact, I remember him picking her up like a ragdoll and running off to safety at least half the issue. Anything else she did aside from keep him company and try and calm him down, I don't remember.

Yeah you're right. Obvoulsy the cab ride didnt give him time to rest and recuperate. Hell when they got out of the cab both him and her had a fairly long conversation obvoulsy he didnt have time to rest and get better. Obvoulsy the cab ride had no factor in that at all.

He wasnt running for half an issue..just several panels.


Originally posted by Eternal Idol

I had to check Wikipedia and a few comic sites for this one, and they say Punisher fought Reese, Bonebreaker, and Pretty Boy. Reese was there for the Wolverine fight. Bonebreaker is the only one of the three who packs any extra heat.

So what, he still packs extra heat. I already explained Pretty boys versatility.


Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Frank still needed Microchip to bail his ass out, and from what I've read about it,



Didnt I already state that Pun gets help from Microchip in this thread? They didnt have 3 weeks prep they had hours, looking back on that this is something I got wrong they did have some form of peparation but even then they first turned up they were not expecting to fight people like The Reavers. However they defintely had nowhere near 3 weeks prep.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

they almost got killed.

What am I supposed to say to that? Was 3 weeks prep involved....no. Wasnt Wolverine almost killed? Damn.....man.



Originally posted by Eternal Idol

In the opening post, you specified that the X-Men were coming after the Punisher. Even without preparation, they will formulate a strategy going in as a team or individually. To think otherwise is lowballing them.

Furthermore, if they can strike him anywhere at anytime after Castle's 3 weeks of prep are up, that means setting up traps would be pretty useless.

I know but assuming he cant get them into a trap is lowballing Castle. Hell he managed to lure out Dr Doom why the hell couldnt he lure the Xmen into a trap?


Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Now you're selling Beast short. While on the Avengers, Beast was shown to match the speed and agility of Captain America, a guy who routinely dodged bullets when not blocking them with his shield. That was before his further mutation/upgrades. He's just as fast and agile as Wolverine, if not more. He's smarter and even stronger than both too, even if we don't know by how big a margin.

No I am not, the only thing Beast is superior to Wolverine is strength and even that is debateable. The point is if Beast isnt superior to Wolverine in anything how the hell is going to beat The Reavers?

No he is not smarter than Wolverine. In science yes.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Wolverine's got skills, damage soak/durability, and can inflict more damage. While I think he'd win a fight between the two of them, it's not like Wolverine's got Beast beat in all categories. Beast would do fine against one or more the Reavers, WITHOUT PREP, unlike Castle.

Your not proving that he can beat three reavers without prep hell he may not even beat one. They unload a clip in him and hes ****ed.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Basically means that they know who they're dealing with. Prep or no the only chance that Punisher will actually win this one is if he does the ol' big bomb trap.

I really don't see these 3 X-men as falling for that anytime soon. They'd also have to be monumentally stupid to allow Frank to snipe em. Avoiding a sniper is easy enough, especially for people of the caliber these 3 are. They'll also know that Frank will prolly use either bombs or snipering to take em down. They'll adjust to compensate.

Thats funny when Cap found out he was being sniped he wasnt able to adjust. Not only did he knows he was being sniped he actually had time to figure out an escape strategy....he got gunned down.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

I mean, at most he can prolly take down one of them. But 3 at once? Highly doubtful.

Maybe, maybe not but if he can go up against opponents smarter than the Xmen its not a forgone conclusion he cant.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats funny when Cap found out he was being sniped he wasnt able to adjust. Not only did he knows he was being sniped he actually had time to figure out an escape strategy....he got gunned down.

Show us the scans of this so we can decide how some one who prolly walked into a trap can be relevant to the thread in question.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Maybe, maybe not but if he can go up against opponents smarter than the Xmen its not a forgone conclusion he cant.

Everyone in comics have gone up against people stronger and smarter than them and somehow pull off a win. This is often due to jobbing. Fortunately, that is not allowed in forum battles.

X-men take this 9/10 (I give Castle one because it IS possible that he can get lucky and somehow trick the X-men into walking into an obvious trap.)

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Show us the scans of this so we can decide how some one who prolly walked into a trap can be relevant to the thread in question.

Read Punisher blood and glory issue 1. Cap initially didnt know that Pun was there but found and had time to react but still got shot.

However Cap and Falcon were both hunting Winter Solidier and the only reason why Cap didnt get sniped was because Falcon's falcon saved him. Winter Solider has comparable gun skills to Punisher.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Everyone in comics have gone up against people stronger and smarter than them and somehow pull off a win. This is often due to jobbing. Fortunately, that is not allowed in forum battles.


and you wouldnt say it was jobbing if Captain America had done it. Unfortunetley theres proof that Punisher is tactically smarter than Captain America. So no its not jobbing. Its also not jobbing when Punisher survived an assasination attempt from High Evolutinary.

However if you want to say that every good thing that Pun does is due to jobbing then I simply cant argue with that.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Read Punisher blood and glory issue 1. Cap initially didnt know that Pun was there but found and had time to react but still got shot.

However Cap and Falcon were both hunting Winter Solidier and the only reason why Cap didnt get sniped was because Falcon's falcon saved him. Winter Solider has comparable gun skills to Punisher.

and you wouldnt say it was jobbing if Captain America had done it. Unfortunetley theres proof that Punisher is tactically smarter than Captain America. So no its not jobbing. Its also not jobbing when Punisher survived an assasination attempt from High Evolutinary.

Actually, Cap is the jobber king. Basically everyone jobs to Cap.

But that's not relevant here.

No one is saying Frank sucks. He's a brilliant tactician and an experienced soldier. However, tactics will only take you so far.

You keep saying that Frank will prolly find a way, but other than a bomb trap (w/c will be utterly stupid for the X-men to fall into, granting that they already know who they're dealing with).

Guns will barely slow down Wolverine and if they're any smart (and they are), they'll prolly use cover intelligently to avoid getting sniped. Wolvie will prolly just track down Frank thru his scent (but be smart enough to check for traps before entering a room).

I really don't see how Frank can win here, but you apparently do.

Pls enlighten us.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
They might do they might not.

they wouldn't. cyclops preps on the fly more than he does with actual prep time.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Actually, Cap is the jobber king. Basically everyone jobs to Cap.

Forget it, if you're simply going to state that everybody jobs to Cap them im wasting my time. Obvously if you dont like something you're just going to use your own personal bias and state it as jobbing so there is no point in having a further discussion.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
But that's not relevant here.

No one is saying Frank sucks. He's a brilliant tactician and an experienced soldier. However, tactics will only take you so far.

You keep saying that Frank will prolly find a way, but other than a bomb trap (w/c will be utterly stupid for the X-men to fall into, granting that they already know who they're dealing with).

Guns will barely slow down Wolverine and if they're any smart (and they are), they'll prolly use cover intelligently to avoid getting sniped. Wolvie will prolly just track down Frank thru his scent (but be smart enough to check for traps before entering a room).

I really don't see how Frank can win here, but you apparently do.

Pls enlighten us.

I just explained it to you. You didnt even bother to read it, you just ignored it and repeated some stuff. Anyway forget it.


Originally posted by Raoul
they wouldn't. cyclops preps on the fly more than he does with actual prep time.

Well obvoulsy he will come up with some plan doesnt mean he'll succeed
.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Forget it, if you're simply going to state that everybody jobs to Cap them im wasting my time. Obvously if you dont like something you're just going to use your own personal bias and state it as jobbing so there is no point in having a further discussion

The jobbing part was my opinion and I also said that the jobbing part was irrelevant to this discussion.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I just explained it to you. You didnt even bother to read it, you just ignored it and repeated some stuff. Anyway forget it.

Sorry, basically, from what I've read in your replies you basically said: "Punisher successfully sniped cap even tho he knew he was being sniped, so he can kill these guys." over and over again. If I missed anything else please re-post them so I can reread em and understand how in hell he can win here.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well obvoulsy he will come up with some plan doesnt mean he'll succeed.

Same can be said for Frank. Thing is, if his plan fails all he got is guns. If their plan fails they still got their powers and numbers to fall back on...

Team takes this at least 9/10.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
The jobbing part was my opinion and I also said that the jobbing part was irrelevant to this discussion.


Actually it might well be. If you're stating that everybody jobs to Cap then obvoulsy beating him isnt all that.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Sorry, basically, from what I've read in your replies you basically said: "Punisher successfully sniped cap even tho he knew he was being sniped, so he can kill these guys." over and over again. If I missed anything else please re-post them so I can reread em and understand how in hell he can win here.

You know I did explain that Pun did this with considerably less prep than 3 weeks and alot less resources. Ok you understand the concept that if you have more time and alot more resources and help that you can do even better.

I also explained how Winter Soldier almost sniped Captain America and both Cap and Falcon were both hunting Winter Solidier. The only thing that saved Cap was that Falcon's falcon saved his butt.

Can you understand where im going with this? WS didnt even really know who Cap and Falcon (for example didnt know Falcon had control of falcon and therefore could not anticipate it) were and has comparble gun skills to Pun and used nowhere near 3 weeks prep. Looking at the evidence theres a decent chance that at least one of the team will be sniped at that person will probably be Cyclops.

Also to add. Dardevil, Moon Knight, Shang Chi, Black Widow were forumlating a team to take down Punisher and Punisher was spying on them and they didnt even know. He even managed to get fairly detailed info on them. If you can spy on somebody you can sipe them, obvoulsy DD didnt want Punisher to spy on him but was not able to stop him.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210


Same can be said for Frank. Thing is, if his plan fails all he got is guns. If their plan fails they still got their powers and numbers to fall back on...



Yes thats possible lets not assume that its a foregone conlusioin shall we?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Actually it might well be. If you're stating that everybody jobs to Cap then obvoulsy beating him isnt all that.

Like Punisher, Cap is just a man. An uberskilled, ubersmart and uberexperienced combatant. But still a man. They both are. Unlike what this thread is about. These aren't mere men. So, yeah, give 2 people of potentially the same advantages and give one of them a gun and prep and the conclusion is obvious. I don't give the fact that Cap battles Superhumans and win any weight here, tho. Those always had extenuating circumstances why he succeeded or at the very least jobbed. Or do you really think a guy with a shield can beat a guy who can lift cars and dodge bullets?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You know I did explain that Pun did this with considerably less prep than 3 weeks and alot less resources. Ok you understand the concept that if you have more time and alot more resources and help that you can do even better.

I also explained how Winter Soldier almost sniped Captain America and both Cap and Falcon were both hunting Winter Solidier. The only thing that saved Cap was that Falcon's falcon saved his butt.

Can you understand where im going with this? WS didnt even really know who Cap and Falcon (for example didnt know Falcon had control of falcon and therefore could not anticipate it) were and has comparble gun skills to Pun and used nowhere near 3 weeks prep. Looking at the evidence theres a decent chance that at least one of the team will be sniped at that person will probably be Cyclops.

Also to add. Dardevil, Moon Knight, Shang Chi, Black Widow were forumlating a team to take down Punisher and Punisher was spying on them and they didnt even know. He even managed to get fairly detailed info on them. If you can spy on somebody you can sipe them, obvoulsy DD didnt want Punisher to spy on him but was not able to stop him.

Yes, but they were in a place where they assumed they were safe, else they would have taken care not to put themselves in snipable positions. The rules of this thread indicated that Wolvie, Cyc and Beast were hunting him down. Means they know that they might get sniped or led into a bomb trap. Chances of people of their caliber falling for those are slim at best.

You also didn't indicate that Castle has prior knowledge on how and w/c direction they're coming from so they have just as much a chance to stalk him as he does them (you need to spot your target to snipe them). Better, in fact, as Wolvie is a much better tracker than Castle is. Castle will need to know where they're coming from first (w/c is unlikely) and once they engage castle (in either long range or H2H, it's over).

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yes thats possible lets not assume that its a foregone conlusioin shall we?

Why do you think I gave castle one win? I said 9/10 for the team, didn't I?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well obvoulsy he will come up with some plan doesnt mean he'll succeed

his plans tend to succeed more than they fail.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Like Punisher, Cap is just a man. An uberskilled, ubersmart and uberexperienced combatant. But still a man.

Not really Cap is an enhanced human. I mean Punisher is clearly not just a man but Cap has had enhancements Pun hasnt. Sorry mate you clearly dont know what you're talking about.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

They both are. Unlike what this thread is about. These aren't mere men. So, yeah, give 2 people of potentially the same advantages and give one of them a gun and prep and the conclusion is obvious. I don't give the fact that Cap battles Superhumans and win any weight here, tho. Those always had extenuating circumstances why he succeeded or at the very least jobbed.

Exactly as I stated before statements like that make discussing with you a waste of time. You're downplaying Cap while trying to make out the mutants are somehow superior because they are mutants.

They dont job to him, hes that good.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Or do you really think a guy with a shield can beat a guy who can lift cars and dodge bullets?

Are you for real? You really dont know much about Cap do you? You're probably one of those posters who thinks Cap is a glorified Olympic athlete. Yes he can actualy and theres plenty of proof that indicates that he can.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Yes, but they were in a place where they assumed they were safe, else they would have taken care not to put themselves in snipable positions.


The point is DD would have tried to hide his actvities from Punisher as much as possible and wasnt able to do it. If they couldnt do it how on earth are these three going to do it?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

The rules of this thread indicated that Wolvie, Cyc and Beast were hunting him down. Means they know that they might get sniped or led into a bomb trap. Chances of people of their caliber falling for those are slim at best.

And again if Captain America who is tactically superior to Cyclops and Falcon couldnt hide from a sniper with much less prep and resources how on earth are these three going to do it?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

You also didn't indicate that Castle has prior knowledge on how and w/c direction they're coming from so they have just as much a chance to stalk him as he does them (you need to spot your target to snipe them). Better, in fact, as Wolvie is a much better tracker than Castle is. Castle will need to know where they're coming from first (w/c is unlikely) and once they engage castle (in either long range or H2H, it's over).

Prior knowledge is standard and hes knows Wolverine personally hes also beaten Wolverine with zero prep and had to come up with a plan on the fly. Doesnt matter wether Wolverine is a better tracker hes hidden from people much better than Wolverine, he can also hide his scent and use equipment that can harm Wolverines senses. Punisher can slso use informants the team cant.

Hes also beaten Spiderman, Wolverine and DD with prep but people ***** about that arc.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Why do you think I gave castle one win? I said 9/10 for the team, didn't I?

One win, brilliant. In fact it could end up in stalemate because they probably wont be able to find them.


Originally posted by Raoul
his plans tend to succeed more than they fail.

and its not conclusive that it will work when Pun has gone up against people tactically better. Im pretty sure theres proof that Cap is tactically superior to Cyclops.

even if cap IS better than scott, that's not saying much, as the argument could be made that cap is the best tactician in marvel, and cyclops is only second to him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Not really Cap is an enhanced human. I mean Punisher is clearly not just a man but Cap has had enhancements Pun hasnt.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Are you for real? You really dont know much about Cap do you? You're probably one of those posters who thinks Cap is a glorified Olympic athlete. Yes he can actualy and theres plenty of proof that indicates that he can.

His abilities have always been written as peak human and a bit short of superhuman. Thing is, all his abilities are at this point, not just strength. I collected Cap comics for close to 8 years, fyi. So, I know a bit about him, nothing I've read showed him to be any stronger than the strongest normal human. He only knows to hit where it hurts and to outsmart and outskill his opponents. Unless you can post scans of him lifting cars and speedblitzing opponents using superspeed, you need to get "for real" yourself. And what does Cap's abilities have relevance in this thread anyway??

You claim because Cap was so good, he shoulda been able to avoid getting sniped when he knew he was about to get sniped. Clearly he wasn't.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Exactly as I stated before statements like that make discussing with you a waste of time. You're downplaying Cap while trying to make out the mutants are somehow superior because they are mutants.

No, they're superior becuase they're extremely well trained mutants with powers which have shown to be very effective against gun totting opponents. And there's 3 of them.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The point is DD would have tried to hide his actvities from Punisher as much as possible and wasnt able to do it. If they couldnt do it how on earth are these three going to do it?

Again, you seem to assume that since he's been able to do it to some people, then everyone has no chance of being able to detect him. Like I said, this is a forum battle, we use abilities plus circumstances to determine the winner. He does have tracking skills of his own and can prolly disrupt Wolvie's tracking. I'll give you that. But you also seem to assume that they'll stride into an open field like lemmings where there's a good vantage point so that they'd get sniped.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
And again if Captain America who is tactically superior to Cyclops and Falcon couldnt hide from a sniper with much less prep and resources how on earth are these three going to do it?

The circumstances on how the Team will approach their hunt of the Punisher will have that possibility already considered. It is easy to avoid sniper fire as long as you play it smart and keep yourself in areas with little to no vantage points and to keep moving in and out of cover. If you allow yourself to get caught in open ground, then it doesn't matter how tactically smart you are, you're doomed.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Prior knowledge is standard and hes knows Wolverine personally hes also beaten Wolverine with zero prep and had to come up with a plan on the fly. Doesnt matter wether Wolverine is a better tracker hes hidden from people much better than Wolverine, he can also hide his scent and use equipment that can harm Wolverines senses. Punisher can slso use informants the team cant.

Why do you keep stating "Cuz he's beat this people so he WINS!". Everyone has low and high showings. While we do base arguments on that sometimes, we don't always go with that. Otherwise, we can all argue that squirrel girl can destroy the Silver Surfer. And that Captain America can kick Firelord's butt cuz he beat Spiderman.

This is also clearly one of those debates where you NEED to state HOW he's going to win so that we can argue about if it's possible for that to come about. State the HOW and not "Cuz he beat X", otherwise forfeit the argument.

If you think that Castle is gonna snipe Cyc and then stalk beast and wolvie one by one then you're way is incredibly unlikely.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
One win, brilliant. In fact it could end up in stalemate because they probably wont be able to find them.

One win s'all he deserves. Well, if this thread was about Punisher trying to hide from them, it might. But he'd have to engage them sooner or later or this thread is pointless.

And damn, you need to drink less coffee. Calm the hell down buddy. Not trying to crap on your hero or anything.

Originally posted by Raoul
even if cap IS better than scott, that's not saying much, as the argument could be made that cap is the best tactician in marvel, and cyclops is only second to him.

Actually it could be argued that hes the third best Punisher first, Cap second and Cyclops third. Both Cyke and Cap are better leaders but theres proof that Pun is tactically better than Cap.

It is saying much because if he can gun down Cap with very little prep hes gunning down cyclops with three weeks and much more resources.

Yeah and im going to say that Cap is better than Cyke considering in Secret Wars Cap was the leader of the all heroes in the presence of Cyke. Also in the Infinity Gauntlet Cap was second in command after Warlock and as far as I can remember this is the same in The Infinity War as well.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
It is saying much because if he can gun down Cap with very little prep hes gunning down cyclops with three weeks and much more resources.

So by your logic, if I managed to snipe an unarmed Navy Seal while I was at a vantage point then I'm a better tactician than him?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Actually it could be argued that hes the third best Punisher first, Cap second and Cyclops third. Both Cyke and Cap are better leaders but theres proof that Pun is tactically better than Cap.

It is saying much because if he can gun down Cap with very little prep hes gunning down cyclops with three weeks and much more resources.

Yeah and im going to say that Cap is better than Cyke considering in Secret Wars Cap was the leader of the all heroes in the presence of Cyke. Also in the Infinity Gauntlet Cap was second in command after Warlock and as far as I can remember this is the same in The Infinity War as well.

punisher? seriously?

god, your wankery knows no bounds sometimes. seriously.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Actually it could be argued that hes the third best Punisher first, Cap second and Cyclops third. Both Cyke and Cap are better leaders but theres proof that Pun is tactically better than Cap.

It is saying much because if he can gun down Cap with very little prep hes gunning down cyclops with three weeks and much more resources.

Yeah and im going to say that Cap is better than Cyke considering in Secret Wars Cap was the leader of the all heroes in the presence of Cyke. Also in the Infinity Gauntlet Cap was second in command after Warlock and as far as I can remember this is the same in The Infinity War as well. Count your blessings that this is the week I harass carver. biscuits

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
His abilities have always been written as peak human and a bit short of superhuman.

So what? Namor has been listed as having below class 100 strength for years. Hes been stated on panel as being able to run just under 60 mph and has other superhuman feats. That isnt peak human thats enhanced.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Thing is, all his abilities are at this point, not just strength. I collected Cap comics for close to 8 years, fyi. So, I know a bit about him, nothing I've read showed him to be any stronger than the strongest normal human.

Cap was doing with reps with 1100 lbs and did gymnastics staright afterwards and wasnt even tired. Hes lifted Big Bertha who weighs just 800lbs ran with her and thrown her. Hes made steel doors buckle while wounded...etc.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210


He only knows to hit where it hurts and to outsmart and outskill his opponents. Unless you can post scans of him lifting cars and speedblitzing opponents using superspeed, you need to get "for real" yourself. And what does Cap's abilities have relevance in this thread anyway??

I dont need to show scans of him lifting cars he doesnt need to be thats strong to hurt people with superhuman strength.

His abilities are relevant because hes tactically smarter than Cyke and could probaly kick at least Beats arse.

Cap has dodged speedsters and kicked Quicksilver in the face.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

You claim because Cap was so good, he shoulda been able to avoid getting sniped when he knew he was about to get sniped. Clearly he wasn't.

Exactly its not because Pun was highly skilled its because Cap was crap. Obvoulsy if it was that easy to snipe him everybody would be doing it. facepalm


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

No, they're superior becuase they're extremely well trained mutants with powers which have shown to be very effective against gun totting opponents. And there's 3 of them.

Im sorry but most of your logic fails. First of all both Captain America and Falcon are very effective against guns. Pun isnt any gun toting punk. Eventhough there were two of them Winter Solider didnt have three weeks prep, I keep repeating this shit other and over again.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Again, you seem to assume that since he's been able to do it to some people, then everyone has no chance of being able to detect him. Like I said, this is a forum battle, we use abilities plus circumstances to determine the winner. He does have tracking skills of his own and can prolly disrupt Wolvie's tracking. I'll give you that. But you also seem to assume that they'll stride into an open field like lemmings where there's a good vantage point so that they'd get sniped.

Er no but if Cap cant stop himself from getting sniped and DD and his crew cant hide from Pun theres a decent chance at least one of them is getting sniped.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

The circumstances on how the Team will approach their hunt of the Punisher will have that possibility already considered. It is easy to avoid sniper fire as long as you play it smart and keep yourself in areas with little to no vantage points and to keep moving in and out of cover. If you allow yourself to get caught in open ground, then it doesn't matter how tactically smart you are, you're doomed.

Yeah and Cap and Falcon couldnt hdie from Winter Solider. Winter Solider didnt have 3 weeks prep and have loads of resources. You keep saying they will the facts dont show that.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Why do you keep stating "Cuz he's beat this people so he WINS!". Everyone has low and high showings. While we do base arguments on that sometimes, we don't always go with that. Otherwise, we can all argue that squirrel girl can destroy the Silver Surfer. And that Captain America can kick Firelord's butt cuz he beat Spiderman.

I keep saying he beats these people so he wins? What sort of logic is that, so im im supposed to say give examples where hes loses?

Again eveytime I give good examples you keep telling me its a low showing, or that they jobbed thats not debating its bias.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

This is also clearly one of those debates where you NEED to state HOW he's going to win so that we can argue about if it's possible for that to come about. State the HOW and not "Cuz he beat X", otherwise forfeit the argument.

If you think that Castle is gonna snipe Cyc and then stalk beast and wolvie one by one then you're way is incredibly unlikely.

I could go into more detail but at this point I cant be bothered if you keep saying downplaying peoples feats.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

One win s'all he deserves. Well, if this thread was about Punisher trying to hide from them, it might. But he'd have to engage them sooner or later or this thread is pointless.

And damn, you need to drink less coffee. Calm the hell down buddy. Not trying to crap on your hero or anything.

Its not my fault mate. You're the one who keep trying to downplay feats. You may not think you're crapping on my character but thats what you're doing by stating that everybody jobs to him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Actually it could be argued that hes the third best Punisher first, Cap second and Cyclops third. Both Cyke and Cap are better leaders but theres proof that Pun is tactically better than Cap.

It is saying much because if he can gun down Cap with very little prep hes gunning down cyclops with three weeks and much more resources.

Yeah and im going to say that Cap is better than Cyke considering in Secret Wars Cap was the leader of the all heroes in the presence of Cyke. Also in the Infinity Gauntlet Cap was second in command after Warlock and as far as I can remember this is the same in The Infinity War as well. You could have at least put Punisher 2nd, make yourself not look like a fanboy

Originally posted by Raoul
punisher? seriously?

god, your wankery knows no bounds sometimes. seriously.

No not really you just like to ignore evidence. Heres the proof.

1. Cap decided to use Punishers plan of attack instead of his own in The civil war. Obvoulsy thats irrelavnat and im kaing shit up.
2. He escaped capture from an FBI agent and Cap almost figured out what he was doing but not quick enough.
3. Couldnt stop himself from being sniped by Pun.
4. Dr Doom has commented on how imnpressive Pun strategy is a clone

Ok if you think thats wankery fine.

Hell you were talking nonsense in that over thread so dont tell me anything about wankery you hypocrite.

Originally posted by Mindset
You could have at least put Punisher 2nd, make yourself not look like a fanboy

Not when I have proof, I also said it could be argued.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No not really you just like to ignore evidence. Heres the proof.

1. Cap decided to use Punishers plan of attack instead of his own in The civil war. Obvoulsy thats irrelavnat and im kaing shit up.
2. He escaped capture from an FBI agent and Cap almost figured out what he was doing but not quick enough.
3. Couldnt stop himself from being sniped by Pun.
4. Dr Doom has commented on how imnpressive Pun strategy is a clone

Ok if you think thats wankery fine.

Hell you were talking nonsense in that over thread so dont tell me anything about wankery you hypocrite. i laffed

Btw only one of those shows a direct relation between Cap's skills and Punisher's, and that doesn't really show who is overall superior to the other.

I don't remember Civil War, can you post the scans?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So what? Namor has been listed as having below class 100 strength for years. Hes been stated on panel as being able to run just under 60 mph and has other superhuman feats. That isnt peak human thats enhanced.

Cap was doing with reps with 1100 lbs and did gymnastics staright afterwards and wasnt even tired. Hes lifted Big Bertha who weighs just 800lbs ran with her and thrown her. Hes made steel doors buckle while wounded...etc.

I dont need to show scans of him lifting cars he doesnt need to be thats strong to hurt people with superhuman strength.

His abilities are relevant because hes tactically smarter than Cyke and could probaly kick at least Beats arse.

Cap has dodged speedsters and kicked Quicksilver in the face.

Exactly its not because Pun was highly skilled its because Cap was crap. Obvoulsy if it was that easy to snipe him everybody would be doing it. facepalm

Im sorry but most of your logic fails. First of all both Captain America and Falcon are very effective against guns. Pun isnt any gun toting punk. Eventhough there were two of them Winter Solider didnt have three weeks prep, I keep repeating this shit other and over again.

Er no but if Cap cant stop himself from getting sniped and DD and his crew cant hide from Pun theres a decent chance at least one of them is getting sniped.

Yeah and Cap and Falcon couldnt hdie from Winter Solider. Winter Solider didnt have 3 weeks prep and have loads of resources. You keep saying they will the facts dont show that.

I keep saying he beats these people so he wins? What sort of logic is that, so im im supposed to say give examples where hes loses?

Again eveytime I give good examples you keep telling me its a low showing, or that they jobbed thats not debating its bias.

I could go into more detail but at this point I cant be bothered if you keep saying downplaying peoples feats.

Its not my fault mate. You're the one who keep trying to downplay feats. You may not think you're crapping on my character but thats what you're doing by stating that everybody jobs to him.

Ok, last post of the day, need to sleep.

Your post is yet more "he beat this guy so can beat these 3". Nothing fresh cept to state that if Cap can be sniped, so can these guys. You're stuck on they WHY yet avoid the HOW's.

If you've read my post, then you'll know that I've challenged you to paint a scenario where you think it could be written how Frank can take down 3 of the most experienced X-men in a 3-on-1 fight.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No not really you just like to ignore evidence. Heres the proof.

1. Cap decided to use Punishers plan of attack instead of his own in The civil war. Obvoulsy thats irrelavnat and im kaing shit up.
2. He escaped capture from an FBI agent and Cap almost figured out what he was doing but not quick enough.
3. Couldnt stop himself from being sniped by Pun.
4. Dr Doom has commented on how imnpressive Pun strategy is a clone

Ok if you think thats wankery fine.

Hell you were talking nonsense in that over thread so dont tell me anything about wankery you hypocrite.



Not when I have proof, I also said it could be argued.

CONTEXT.

1. Civil War was an extreme circumstance. Frank Castle fights dirty. Cap needed someone who would fight dirty. Then Cap, iirc, knocked Frank out in one shot. His tactical awareness didn't do him any good there, did it?
2. How does that make Punisher a better tactician? He came up with an escape plan. Good for him. What, Cap couldnt do the same?
3. I didn't realise Cap had super senses.
4. Which one of them was a clone?

What other thread?

Originally posted by Mindset
i laffed

You can dont mean your right.

Originally posted by Mindset

Btw only one of those shows a direct relation between Cap's skills and Punisher's, and that doesn't really show who is overall superior to the other.

Um what? Escaping capture from Cap and FBI agent shows Punishers smarts. Dr Doom complementing Punisher on hsi smarts shows hes up there with the best.

Originally posted by Mindset


I don't remember Civil War, can you post the scans?

There you go.

Franks so good at prep that Cap decides to go with Franks plan instead of his own. Note how the plan does not just involve beating people up but infiiltration and stealing information.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4607/image012cwoo0.th.jpg

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You can dont mean your right.



Um what? Escaping capture from Cap and FBI agent shows Punishers smarts. Dr Doom complementing Punisher on hsi smarts shows hes up there with the best.



There you go.

Franks so good at prep that Cap decides to go with Franks plan instead of his own. Note how the plan does not just involve beating people up but infiiltration and stealing information.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4607/image012cwoo0.th.jpg I wasn't aware laughing could make you wrong or right.

I didn't say escaping capture from Cap and the FBI didn't show Punisher was smart, I said it doesn't show a direct relationship between Cap's prep ability and Frank's.

Unless Doom said Frank was better than Cap that has nothing to do with what I said.

Where's the scan where Cap decides Frank's plan is better? That's not it.

Originally posted by Raoul
CONTEXT.

1. Civil War was an extreme circumstance. Frank Castle fights dirty. Cap needed someone who would fight dirty.

Obvoulsy you've forgotten that Captain America has been extreme cirumstances before and has come up with a plan. In fact Cap has been in more extreme cirumstances and has more experience fighting superhumans than Punisher does, so no really that logic doesnt work.

In fact Secret Wars was a more extreme cirumstance than the Civil War.

Originally posted by Raoul

Then Cap, iirc, knocked Frank out in one shot. His tactical awareness didn't do him any good there, did it?

WRONG. Read the comic again Punisher allowed him to beat him and didnt fight back.


Originally posted by Raoul

2. How does that make Punisher a better tactician? He came up with an escape plan. Good for him. What, Cap couldnt do the same?

The point is that Punisher had to use his brains to escape and cap didnt figure out in time

Originally posted by Raoul

3. I didn't realise Cap had super senses.

Well there pretty good especially since he actually knew that there was a sniper about.

Originally posted by Raoul

4. Which one of them was a clone?

Not the one who complemented him. Hell even the other one has managed to kidnap Franklin Richards wanted to hire Pun. Obvously Pun isnt up there with the best.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Obvoulsy you've forgotten that Captain America has been extreme cirumstances before and has come up with a plan. In fact Cap has been in more extreme cirumstances and has more experience fighting superhumans than Punisher does, so no really that logic doesnt work.

In fact Secret Wars was a more extreme cirumstance than the Civil War.

it was also unlike anything cap had ever done before. he knew that he was fighting heroes. he needed to think like a villain to win.

so no, i didn't forget.



actually, no, you're wrong. the not fighting back came later.



which does absolutely nothing to indicate tactical superiority.



what instance is this?


also, what thread? if you're going to call me a hypocrite, at least have the balls to explain yourself.

Originally posted by Mindset


I didn't say escaping capture from Cap and the FBI didn't show Punisher was smart, I said it doesn't show a direct relationship between Cap's prep ability and Frank's.

I m not sure what you're getting at but obvoulsy if it shows hes smart that can be applied to prep and in that cirumstance he escaped before Cap could figure it out.

Originally posted by Mindset

Unless Doom said Frank was better than Cap that has nothing to do with what I said.

My point is that if Doom complements you, you are up there with the best. You know Doom doesnt complement people lightly.

Originally posted by Mindset

Where's the scan where Cap decides Frank's plan is better? That's not it.

Yeah it is because obvoulsy Cap would have had a plan.

Originally posted by Mindset
i laffed

By this point, I stopped laughing and feel only pitty, to be honest.

Originally posted by Raoul
it was also unlike anything cap had ever done before. he knew that he was fighting heroes. he needed to think like a villain to win.

so no, i didn't forget.

No he didnt need to fight like a villain. Breaking into and infiltrating bases doesnt mean you have to think like a villain. Beating Up SHIELD agents doesnt mean you need to think like a villain you just need to smart. The fact he was fighting superheros in fact indcates logically he has to fight less like a villain.


Originally posted by Raoul

actually, no, you're wrong. the not fighting back came later.


No you're still wrong he wasnt trying to fight back and he wasnt one-shotted.

Originally posted by Raoul

which does absolutely nothing to indicate tactical superiority.


Yeah you're right him coming up with a plan on the fly which Cap couldnt figure out in time isnt anything that could be applied to 3 weeks prep. Hell he can outsmart Cap on the fly....3 weeks...not a chance.

Earlier on you were stating that Punisher not seeing Cap punch him in the face was an indication of lack of tactical awareness, which is more to do with h2h. Hypocrisy, a perfect example of you dictating what the rules are and then changing them to suit you. I have an example of Pun actually using his brain that doesnt count but Punisher getting punched in the face is lack of tactical awarness.

Originally posted by Raoul

what instance is this?

Captain Americe and Punisher Blood and Glory issue 1. Cap doesnt have super senses persay (well in some circumstances), but he was able to know there was a sniper about.

Originally posted by Raoul

also, what thread? if you're going to call me a hypocrite, at least have the balls to explain yourself.

Ok let me make something clear to you. If I didnt mention what thread its not because im somehow afraid of you its because im having to debate with three people at once and I dont want to go off on a tangent I just brought it up because im pissed.

Dont EVAH think im afraid of you. Anyway its the ethnic aliens thread you were talking some bs about there being more extremely different looking and acting aliens in comics these days. Hell to be quite honest you sound like a nerd to me and under normal circumstances I wouldnt even really be on comic forums...but oh well. Balls my arse.

Ahh shit too late to edit my post, that was a little too heated.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ahh shit too late to edit my post, that was a little too heated.

Here, my treat.

http://barsupplies.com/images/drinking-straws.jpg

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No he didnt need to fight like a villain. Breaking into and infiltrating bases doesnt mean you have to think like a villain. Beating Up SHIELD agents doesnt mean you need to think like a villain you just need to smart. The fact he was fighting superheros in fact indcates logically he has to fight less like a villain.




No you're still wrong he wasnt trying to fight back and he wasnt one-shotted.



Yeah you're right him coming up with a plan on the fly which Cap couldnt figure out in time isnt anything that could be applied to 3 weeks prep. Hell he can outsmart Cap on the fly....3 weeks...not a chance.

Earlier on you were stating that Punisher not seeing Cap punch him in the face was an indication of lack of tactical awareness, which is more to do with h2h. Hypocrisy, a perfect example of you dictating what the rules are and then changing them to suit you. I have an example of Pun actually using his brain that doesnt count but Punisher getting punched in the face is lack of tactical awarness.



Captain Americe and Punisher Blood and Glory issue 1. Cap doesnt have super senses persay (well in some circumstances), but he was able to know there was a sniper about.



Ok let me make something clear to you. If I didnt mention what thread its not because im somehow afraid of you its because im having to debate with three people at once and I dont want to go off on a tangent I just brought it up because im pissed.

Dont EVAH think im afraid of you. Anyway its the ethnic aliens thread you were talking some bs about there being more extremely different looking and acting aliens in comics these days. Hell to be quite honest you sound like a nerd to me and under normal circumstances I wouldnt even really be on comic forums...but oh well. Balls my arse. Warned for mod bashing.....































badawe

Originally posted by Badabing
Warned for mod bashing.....































badawe

durhulk

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ahh shit too late to edit my post, that was a little too heated.

is that an apology?

Originally posted by Raoul
is that an apology?

Yeah I guess so but dont ever think im afraid of you.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Yeah. There are so many things wrong in this thread, and you'll find them all in Phantom Zone's posts.

facepalm

lol at this thread

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah I guess so but dont ever think im afraid of you.

what does that have to do with anything?

i'm not doctor frickin doom or sinestro. i don't go around frightening people (except bada).

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah I guess so but dont ever think im afraid of you.



facepalm So you lied when you PMed me and said Raoul scares you? biscuits

Originally posted by Raoul
what does that have to do with anything?

i'm not doctor frickin doom or sinestro. i don't go around frightening people (except bada). Using the word "frickin" makes you Dr. Evil. evillaugh

Originally posted by Raoul
what does that have to do with anything?

i'm not doctor frickin doom or sinestro. i don't go around frightening people (except bada).

What I mean is you seem to think somehow im intimidated you by not adressing certain points ie when you asked aboout that thread and I didnt reply. You seem to think that for some strange reason I dont want to get into a debate. To an extent yes but not because you've got brilliant debating skills.



Originally posted by Badabing
So you lied when you PMed me and said Raoul scares you? biscuits



ha-son

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What I mean is you seem to think somehow im intimidated you by not adressing certain points ie when you asked aboout that thread and I didnt reply. You seem to think that for some strange reason I dont want to get into a debate. To an extent yes but not because you've got brilliant debating skills.

wow. none of that is true. at all.

Originally posted by Raoul
wow. none of that is true. at all.

Originally posted by Raoul


also, what thread? if you're going to call me a hypocrite, at least have the balls to explain yourself.

That implies that I dont have the gutts to explain myself, doesnt it? That happened after I didnt answer your question so you are obvoulsy implying that I dont have the guts to talk about the thread when you mention the word 'balls'.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
That implies that I dont have the gutts to explain myself, doesnt it? That happened after I didnt answer your question so you are obvoulsy implying that I dont have the guts to talk about the thread when you mention the word 'balls'.

no, it implies that i wanted an explanation.

i wasn't like, claiming you'd been neutered, or anything.

and frankly, i don't care enough about anyone on this forum enough to want to spend the time required to make them afraid of me. nothing personal, so don't take it the wrong way, but when i log off or go to bed at night, KMC is not something on my mind...

Originally posted by Raoul
no, it implies that i wanted an explanation.

i wasn't like, claiming you'd been neutered, or anything.

Lord Jesus Christ why are we talking about being neutered? You know what the expression balls means? It means you're not brave enough. So yes it impiies im not brave enough to make an explantion. Which is what I said in the first place.


Originally posted by Raoul

and frankly, i don't care enough about anyone on this forum enough to want to spend the time required to make them afraid of me. nothing personal, so don't take it the wrong way, but when i log off or go to bed at night, KMC is not something on my mind...

Couldnt careless.

Originally posted by Raoul
no, it implies that i wanted an explanation.

Originally posted by Raoul
i wasn't like, claiming you'd been neutered, or anything.Orly???

Originally posted by Raoul
I believe Alfheim has been neutered. msn-oh


Originally posted by Raoul
and frankly, i don't care enough about anyone on this forum enough to want to spend the time required to make them afraid of me. nothing personal, so don't take it the wrong way, but when i log off or go to bed at night, KMC is not something on my mind... sadwalk


















biscuits

Im gonna ask you to close this thread in a second.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Lord Jesus Christ why are we talking about being neutered? You know what the expression balls means? It means you're not brave enough. So yes it impiies im not brave enough to make an explantion. Which is what I said in the first place.

so now you're explaining to me what I meant when i made MY post. how considerate of you.



good for you. stick it to the man, etc.

Originally posted by Raoul
so now you're explaining to me what I meant when i made MY post. how considerate of you.


If somebody doesnt have the balls what does that mean?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
If somebody doesnt have the balls what does that mean?

it means having the guts.

where you misunderstand is in the, well, the entire meaning.

it was a once off, impatient comment. i wasn't suggesting that you, in general, lacked some kind of courage. i wasnt sitting there thinking "Hah, PZ's got no balls!"

stop reading in to it. seriously. take it at face value.

Originally posted by Raoul
it means having the guts.

where you misunderstand is in the, well, the entire meaning.

Well what you fail to understand is that what the expressions means. If you meant something else thats not my fault but yours.

Originally posted by Raoul

it was a once off, impatient comment. i wasn't suggesting that you, in general, lacked some kind of courage. i wasnt sitting there thinking "Hah, PZ's got no balls!"


Yes you probably were. At any rate im not telepathic .

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well what you fail to understand is that what the expressions means. If you meant something else thats not my fault but yours.



Yes you probably were. At any rate im not telepathic .

oh get over yourself. stop whining, and GROW SOME DAMN BALLS.

clear enough for you?

Originally posted by Raoul
oh get over yourself. stop whining, and GROW SOME DAMN BALLS.

clear enough for you?


no

Anyway, back to the topic. Frank loses.

Look at Paul and Alfheim go at it.

Like a couple of schoolgirls.

On topic

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/1236088854510.gif

Originally posted by Badabing
Anyway, back to the topic.

Nah close the thread. Hell people are using getting punched in the face as lack of tactical awarness.....closing.

Originally posted by Badabing

Frank loses.


I got no problem with that however I dont think it would be as high as 9/10.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
no

the answer to your question:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=420996

yes, i do, sometimes.

Originally posted by Raoul
the answer to your question:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=420996

yes, i do, sometimes.

LOL you actually went out your way to find that thread. No your obvoulsy not thinking "Ha PZ hasnt got balls!"


Yeah and I think your short and fat. Or some skinny nerd

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Nah close the thread. Hell people are using getting punched in the face as lack of tactical awarness.....closing.




I got no problem with that however I dont think it would be as high as 9/10. Not 9. 7ish just because Cyke, Beast and Logan have worked together so many times and they are very capable.

10 out of 10 more like it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL you actually went out your way to find that thread. No your obvoulsy not thinking "Ha PZ hasnt got balls!"


Yeah and I think your short and fat. Or some skinny nerd

weak, dude. fat jokes? honestly? i'm sure you can do better... or am i? mhmm

Originally posted by Badabing
7ish just because Cyke, Beast and Logan have worked together so many times and they are very capable.

Thats perfectly reasonable.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats perfectly reasonable. Thanks.

And do you wanna explain yourself for this thread?

Originally posted by Raoul
the answer to your question:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=420996

yes, i do, sometimes. uhuh facepalm

ugh, i don't care anymore.

cyclops and co 7/8 out of ten, for the reasons bada put forward, and cyke's ability to prep on the fly.

Originally posted by Raoul
weak, dude. fat jokes? honestly? i'm sure you can do better... or am i? mhmm

Nah I was just being honest. You seem like a nerd which is why you're probably so obnoxious.

Originally posted by Raoul
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=420996crylaugh

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Nah I was just being honest. You seem like a nerd which is why you're probably so obnoxious.

yes, speak about me when you hardly know me. good thinking.

also, nothing wrong with being a nerd.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Nah I was just being honest. You seem like a nerd which is why you're probably so obnoxious.

Everybody in the comic book section are raging nerds.

You don't have to wear huge glasses, work with computers and live in your mother's basement to be a nerd.

Even though Paul HAPPEN to fill those criteria.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Everybody in the comic book section are raging nerds.

You don't have to wear huge glasses, work with computers and live in your mother's basement to be a nerd.

Even though Paul HAPPEN to fill those criteria.

we don't have a basement.

Originally posted by Raoul
yes, speak about me when you hardly know me. good thinking.


Whatever you're an obnoxious tyrant.

Originally posted by Raoul

also, nothing wrong with being a nerd.

Im guessing that you probably are then. No of course there isnt.

Originally posted by Raoul
we don't have a basement. I thought he meant you live in Trick's basement.....

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Everybody in the comic book section are raging nerds.



Speak for yourself.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Whatever you're an obnoxious tyrant.

lulz. Liar.



you assume i'd take that as some sort of put-down.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Everybody in the comic book section are raging nerds.

You don't have to wear huge glasses, work with computers and live in your mother's basement to be a nerd.

Even though Paul HAPPEN to fill those criteria. Heh, I remember my friends helping me move when they first found out I read comics. A box opened in the truck and my secret revealed. shocklaugh

Now they ask me questions about every super hero movie.

All this subtle (or not) insults alfheim throws at Raoul makes me think he wants him.

Sexually.

Which is a far-off from which he was aiming for, which is everybody going 'omg you're so cool and ballsy picking on a moderator like zat !!11'

Originally posted by Badabing
Heh, I remember my friends helping me move when they first found out I read comics. A box opened in the truck and my secret revealed. shocklaugh

I lol'ed.

Originally posted by Raoul
lulz. Liar.

Like I said I dont need to lie about somebody like you. Like I said shit happens and I get lumbered with people like you.

Originally posted by Raoul

you assume i'd take that as some sort of put-down.

Of course not, you gotta live with it. Dont worry though if you live long enough you can alter your DNA.

Bada isnt a nerd which is probably why hes probably one of the best mods.

Originally posted by Badabing
Heh, I remember my friends helping me move when they first found out I read comics. A box opened in the truck and my secret revealed. shocklaugh

Now they ask me questions about every super hero movie.

poor thing...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Like I said I dont need to lie about somebody like you.

proof, or actually knowing me, would be good, though.



well, someone's insecure.



oh no, a mod based put down. whatever will i do.

please, keep whining. you're so very good at it.

Originally posted by Badabing
Heh, I remember my friends helping me move when they first found out I read comics. A box opened in the truck and my secret revealed. shocklaugh

Now they ask me questions about every super hero movie.

Haha, good friends.

I managed to convert 3 of my friends into comic book fanatics.

Originally posted by Raoul



proof, or actually knowing me, would be good, though.

It would but since you lie and exaggerate about alot of stuff on here you probably do it IRL. Theres no reason for you to be much different.


Originally posted by Raoul

well, someone's insecure.

Yeah you are.

Originally posted by Raoul

oh no, a mod based put down. whatever will i do.

please, keep whining. you're so very good at it.

Then stop responding to my posts. Hell I was just responding to your post and you resorted to insults cos you got called out. *shrug*

I got relativly late into comics (I can't even remember the reason I did, but I remember starting with Batman/The Killing Joke), but I don't think I'd really get into them if I'd be the age I am now, so I see no point in trying to convince one of my friends to do it.

Besides, talking comics IRL would feel wierd.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c258/mistersinister84/funny/Itg.jpg










shifty

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
It would but since you lie and exaggerate about alot of stuff on here you probably do it IRL. Theres no reason for you to be much different.

you wouldn't even know if i did, as you don't read the comics i do. assuming you know anything about me says more about you than it does me.



rawr.



yes, you called me out by whining. repeatedly. good for you.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c258/mistersinister84/funny/Itg.jpg










shifty

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
*skip*
shifty crylaugh

Originally posted by Raoul
you wouldn't even know if i did, as you don't read the comics i do. assuming you know anything about me says more about you than it does me.

LOL your lying right now lmfao


Originally posted by Raoul

rawr.



yes, you called me out by whining. repeatedly. good for you.





Anyway im out later.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL your lying right now lmfao

sadly, i wish i were.

Originally posted by Raoul
sadly, i wish i were.

*sigh* I said I wasnt going to respond but heres why you are a liar. Not so long ago weve been having a discussion in the ethnic aliens thread I clearly showed that I had read comics by actually naming series were I got my info from.

Reading comics = not reading comics

Originally posted by Raoul
you wouldn't even know if i did, as you don't read the comics i do. Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh* I said I wasnt going to respond but heres why you are a liar. Not so long ago weve been having a discussion in the ethnic aliens thread I clearly showed that I had read comics by actually naming series were I got my info from.

Reading comics = not reading comics


He said read the comics he reads.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c258/mistersinister84/funny/Itg.jpg










shifty

fukken saved.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh* I said I wasnt going to respond but heres why you are a liar. Not so long ago weve been having a discussion in the ethnic aliens thread I clearly showed that I had read comics by actually naming series were I got my info from.

Reading comics = not reading comics




Originally posted by Badabing
He said read the comics he reads.

bingo.

Originally posted by Raoul
bingo.


Well for starters you read Marvel and Xmen. I just dont read all the same comics.

I missed the lulz

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well for starters you read Marvel and Xmen. I just dont read all the same comics.

i never said you did. i actually said the opposite.

Originally posted by Raoul
i never said you did. i actually said the opposite.

faceplam

I know and I just stated thats not entirely correct because I do actually read some of the comics you read so I can tell wether you're lying and exaggerating.

Godsake Roaul.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c258/mistersinister84/funny/Itg.jpg










shifty http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/th_Punisher.jpg
Why does he have the same shirt as me? mmm

shocklaugh

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
faceplam

I know and I just stated thats not entirely correct because I do actually read some of the comics you read so I can tell wether you're lying and exaggerating.

Godsake Roaul.

lying and exagerrating what?

i never claimed you read none of the same comics as me, just that there were ones you didn't, the same way you read comics i don't.

Punisher has no defense against Cyclops' optic blast.


Punisher definitely has no answer to Wolverines Regeneration and adamantium.

Originally posted by Raoul
lying and exagerrating what?

i never claimed you read none of the same comics as me, just that there were ones you didn't, the same way you read comics i don't.

Anyway im getting kinda tried now I did miss the point about the comics but not the other point.

The reason why you brought it up was because I wouldnt be able to judge wether you are exaggerating or lying. Wouldnt say you lie though.

*sigh* The points is I can tell when you're exaggerating and trying to dictate your interpretation eg ethnic aliens thread. That thread is perfect example of what im talking about and in that thread I misunderstood nothing.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Punisher has no defense against Cyclops' optic blast.


Hes not going to stand around and let himself get hit.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx

Punisher definitely has no answer to Wolverines Regeneration and adamantium.

He has ctually beaten Wolverine before and that was without prep.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway im getting kinda tried now I did miss the point about the comics but not the other point.

The reason why you brought it up was because I wouldnt be able to judge wether you are exaggerating or lying. Wouldnt say you lie though.

*sigh* The points is I can tell when you're exaggerating and trying to dictate your interpretation eg ethnic aliens thread. That thread is perfect example of what im talking about and in that thread I misunderstood nothing.




Hes not going to stand around and let himself get hit.



He has ctually beaten Wolverine before and that was without prep.

so i'm lying/exagerrating just because you disagree with my interpretation of something?

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Punisher has no defense against Cyclops' optic blast.


Punisher definitely has no answer to Wolverines Regeneration and adamantium.

Simple as that. Why the hell has this thread gone this far when only one guy(?)* has tried to make a solid case for the Punisher and failed?

Originally posted by Badabing
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/th_Punisher.jpg
Why does he have the same shirt as me? mmm

shocklaugh

What would YOU do to Osama, Bada? crackers





*
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Do I give the impression im a chick?

Originally posted by Raoul
so i'm lying/exagerrating just because you disagree with my interpretation of something?

Well you tell me.

First of all you stated that your point is that nowhere days artists and writers try to make aliens look as differently as possible. Then you stated I didnt understand that right after I already said what you said.

Then you keep strawmanning and arguing that you werent stating that werent any human looking aliens when I never said you did.

You also keep listing out examples of the aliens you are talking about when there are just as many that contradict but you keep repeating the same thing over and over again, as if the more you repeat it makes it true.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hes not going to stand around and let himself get hit.

But Cyclops, Wolverine, and Beast will. I see that now.