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Each side fights as a giant army-like team.
This includes every being from any FF game against every being from the three XS games.

Time Compression Ultimecia could solo both teams, Neo Exdeath could probably do the same. FF takes it easy.

God kills them both. So does chaos. And the Zohar. And Wilhelm.
\Plenty of XS characters destroy Ultimecia and Ex Death at the same time. And easily.

No, no they don't. TC Ultimecia was greater than the god of Xenosaga, she wasn't just absorbing a single universe, she was absorbing all existing universes. She would absorb everything in Xenosaga, god included, like a vacuum sucks up dust. Same with Neo Exdeath, he's an incarnation of the Void itself, and is capable of erasing all universes.

Either one of them solo, easier than you can squish a fly with no wings.

Prove to me right now there is more than one universe in Final Fantasy VIII. I want a source.

Not like it matters. U-DO is above all the universes of Xenosaga and there are multiple ones confirmed in the Perfect Guide.



Prove there is more than one universe in Final Fantasy V.

How well does the crazy psycho clown Kefka go ?

Well he's a citybuster and a continent-arranger so he could beat a lot of the main characters one-on-one. But he can't beat the top tier who are all above the planet-busting range and go into galaxy or universe busting.

I'm afraid that all existence means all existence Pyron. I know you don't like to acknowledge Ultimecia's power, but you pretending its not there doesn't make it go away.

U-DO is simply an energy cloud that can be destroyed with anti waves. A couple characters calling it god doesn't make it any more than this. It can't compress time, it can't erase all existence, and it sure as heck can't control every other dimension and universe by absorbing them. It would be nothing but a tasty snack to Ultimecia or Neo Exdeath. The other characters you mentioned would get owned by Kefka as the god of magic, so there's no need for the big dogs to even acknowledge them. Existence busting just can't be topped.

Show me a source that there's multiple universes in FFVIII please.
All existence does not mean multiple universes.



He's God Himself actually.



MNXZjZ2mlxw

"Are you planning on using the Emulators and Omega to destroy U-DO?"
"Nothing can ever destroy U-DO."

And that's the guy who created those anti-waves...



Well I won't get into philosophical debate about what makes a god but fact is U-DO is a god and the God according to some. It doesn't matter much though so think what you like when it comes to this.



Well chaos can destroy the universe "in the blink of an eye" according to the Perfect Guide and he said U-DO's power was infinite. So...U-DO > universe-busters.

U-DO also exists outside of time hence he was not effected by time being rewound thousands of times when Wilhelm reset the universe.

Also prove there are mutlple universes in FF8.



Skip to around 1:10 to see a planet being blasted into another dimension.
iiZfSgDpys0

What caused that was one of the Zohar Emulators going out of control. The party defeated beings with 3x that power.

Also a ship that could, according to the game's own database, "easily destroy a planet" had very little attack power.

That's just the party. They're incredibly weak compared to many XS beings.

So the party murderstomps Kefka I'm afraid.



Please prove FFV or VIII have multiple universes.

Wow, I almost feel bad owning someone so ignorant, but I'll do it anyway.

The Void proves there are multiple universes for FF VIII and FF V. All FFs take place in seperate universes except for VII and X, yet the Void transcends all. The Void was what allowed Garland from FF I to time travel according to Dissidia, it was affecting a completely separate universe than its original one. Gilgamesh from FF V travels through different universes now thanks to the Void. It let him go from the universe of FF V to the universe of FF VIII to the universe of FF XII. Neo Exdeath would easily wipe out all these universes because he is the Void incarnate with a will to destroy all.

Also, because this proves that there are multiple universes with FF VIII, it proves that when the creators of Ultimecia say she was absorbing all existence, they mean all existence.

Sorry chief, but an energy cloud that can be hurt by mortals is nothing to beings that can erase or absorb many different universes.

Where did you come up with this?

Also, I don't think that Dissidia is really canon for anything. That's like claiming that the events in SSBB are canon for Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc.

The FF VII Ultimania confirms that unlike the rest of the FFs, VII and X take place in the same universe, just on separate planets and a few thousand years apart.



The creators have confirmed Dissidia as canon. The Cosmos and Chaos reports in it are considered canon backstory for the first FF.

EDIT

As everyone knows...



Interesting.



Sorry but you're wrong here. FFXII Gilgamesh is not the real one. he wield fake replicas of the weapons while we clearly saw Gilgamesh has the real Zantetsuken.

Also FFV and FFVIII being connected is a good point. So two universes.



Except he can't. The idea the Void can destroy multiple universes is said nowhere in the games and you're using evidence proivded a decade or more after the games' release.
You're fallating your own worthless interpretation as if it were fact.



Again your interpretation. not fact.



They never even fought U-DO...it was never hurt. Why do you insist on debating on topics you know NOTHING about?



Provide a quote please.

Also may I point out Ultimecia and Exdeath never withstood a universe-buster so chaos alone solos in the blink of an eye.

Sorry pal, but the FF XII Ultimania and the game itself prove its the real Gilgamesh. Canonically there are at least five universes, I, V, VIII, XII, and because he has replicas from it, VII/X.



Except he can. I know you're fond of disagreeing with FF source material as you've done so many times in the past, but Neo Exdeath says he will erase everything with the Void, all life, all time, all existence. Because the Void can affect all those different universes, he could. Stop disagreeing with Canon.



Again, the creators know more about it than you, so their word has precedence over your silly ranting.



I know plenty about the Xenosaga universe, and just to be safe I checked the wiki on U-DO and it confirms that URTVs were going to hurt it with anti waves, but someone had some vision and didn't want to kill anyone so he stopped it.

You, on the other hand, have shown time and time again that you've never so much as read the cover of an FF game, so you should ask yourself the question.



The game explicitly says that its all canon to FF I, they use it to explain its backstory and flesh out its characters, and the game ends with the Warrior of Light walking towards Castle Cornelia as he did in FF I. Not to mention the Dissidia Ultimania says that its canon.



Fixed.

Except the real Gilgamesh has the real swords. What, he traded Odin's real Zantetsuken for a fake one?



Hyperbole.



If he never did and all you have to say he can is his own word, it's not canon. It's hyperbole.



Funny, are you a creator of Final Fantasy? No? Well you're the only one saying Neo Ex Death and Ultimecia can destroy multiple universes...all the creators said was that Ultimecia was gonna absorb existence. Sadly that's up for interpretation and though I know you're an egomaniac, your interpretation is not fact.



Yes and the man who created the URTVs said point blank that NOTHING, by definition the URTVs included, could destroy U-DO.
So maybe you should have a better source than wiki next time.



Oh I've played every FF game. Only beat VII, VIII, IX, X and X-2 however.

I'm also a fan of the series. Not a fanboy such as yourself.



That's great. Can you give me a link to a translation of the Ultimania?



Nope, nope. Now it's broken because you're using a character's hyperbole and your own interpretation as fact. Can't get more broken and inaccurate than that.

chaos annihilates them like the worthless villains they are.

The game and Ultimania > your baseless opinions.



Source material > your baseless opinion



In that case Chaos can't destroy the universe because he never did, its just hyperbole. Please stop thinking that your childish mind knows more about the game than its creators.



Sorry champ, but all existence means all existence. Source material > your silly thoughts.



He knew they could hurt it though. Besides which. U-Do is bound to a single universe, it doesn't matter that it has two domains, its still just one universe. Ultimecia and Exdeath affect many universes, they're superior.



Hearing the name of a game doesn't count as playing it, silly, and seeing a screenshot doesn't mean you've beaten it. I'm not a fanboy, I simply can view things objectively unlike an antifanboy such as yourself.



Its a book, they haven't fully translated it yet but they're working on it, so in the future I can give you one. As of now though Dissidia itself is explicit in explaining that its canon and the story is connected to FF I's story.



Fixed.

I'm afraid your silly double standards aren't an argument sport. Ultimecia and Exdeath can canonically annihilate many universes. If the creators of the game and the game itself are just hyperbole, then the same standard applies to Chaos.

I didn't realize facts counted as baseless opinions to you...
Also it says nowhere in FFXII that this is the Gilgamesh from FFV....



Character statements without backing = hyperbole.



If the only thing saying he could was his own wrod, yes it is hyperbole.



Present source material saying multiple universes and I'll agree with you. Right now we have your worthless interpretation and that's not source material.



There are multiple lower domains (universes) in Xenosaga. As he lives in teh upper domain, U-DO is above them all.



How childish. Please grow up.



Again, where do the creators of the game say Ex Death can destroy all universes? It was Ex Death himself who said that...and character statements aren't taken as Gospel Truth.

Also U-DO, like every Xenosaga antagonist, is better than Ultimecia and Ex Death.

Yes it does. It specifically says he's the dimensional wandering warrior, and he is spoken of as the same one.



Then Chaos can't bust the lower domain of the universe.



Word of mouth is all he has, so it looks like he's less than useless.



FF I, FF V, FF VIII, Dissidia and FF XII would like to have a word with you. They are source material, your head is not.



Divide a universe as many times as you want, its still just one universe. U-DO is confined to a single universe while Time Compression and the Void are not.




Remove the plank from thine own eye before trying to remove a speck from your brothers...



Exdeath says he will, the protagonists know he is able to, anything commentating says he is going to.

Hell, go play FF V. The fact is that Neo Exdeath isn't even in the world of FF V when he is going to use it to end existence, he's in the rift that connects all the universe. That alone proves he was going to affect far more than one universe.

Look, here's the thing, champ. If all you're going to do is say the source material is wrong and your baseless thoughts have precedence over it, then there's no point in continuing with you. If you can grow up and learn how to actually debate, then we can continue, ok?

Wow! A dimensional wandering warrior? You've sure proven it now....



But that's backed up by statements from the official guide and the XSIII Database. So it's not just his word, unlike ExDeath.



No, there are multiple universes as said in the guide. chaos can only destroy one universe hence why he won't effect U-DO. U-DO is not confined to one universe.




Where is this said?



fascist you haven't provided a single shred of evidence for anything you've said. The source material? You've provided one statement from a fallible character. That is not source material.

I'm arguing facts here, not your interpretation of fallible quotes.

See, this is what I'm talking about. All you're doing is saying the games and characters are wrong and you're right.

Also, U-DO cannot destroy the universe. All he can do is destroy the lower domain of the one universe in Xenosaga. U-Do would be ok because it also exists in the higher domain, not because there is more than one universe. I'm afraid that cutting a pizza in half doesn't give you two pizzas.

Yes because that's how debating works fascist. We don't treat what every character says as fact.
Shame you aren't a DBZ fan or you'd have seen the debate over the validity of Vegeta's claim he could blow up Earth or Cell's claim he could destroy the solar system.

Characters make claims all the time. We don't say they're right without question, sorry.



Uh, the official guide says of chaos releasing his power "　If chaos, KOS-MOS, Nephilim, Abel and the others had not focused the dissipating consciousnesses and not performed the domain shift to Lost Jerusalem, the Failsafe would have activated, spreading across the entire universe in the blink of an eye, and the Dimensional Universe would have completely vanished."

The XSIII Database confirms this under chaos' entry that his power would cause the "destruction of dimensional space"

Wilhelm says it flatly in the game that his power would cause "the univers to dissipate".

That's three separate sources saying chaos destroys the universe with his power. And yet this power does nothing to U-DO. In fact the Failsafe is designed to destroy one universe and one universe alone to spare all other lower and upper domains.

So there you go. U-DO is beyond universal. Concession please.

Did you even play a Xenosaga game? They say very clearly that Chaos is a failsafe for the whole universe, where U-DO resides as well, because he only destroys the lower domain if it is affecting the higher domain. Its a single universe with separate domains. U-DO is universal, Ultimecia or Exdeath rape stomp him.

Sorry ace, looks like you're still wrong. Its kind of sad you think you're not only smarter than the FF games, but also the Xenosaga canon. When you learn to debate properly instead of outright lying and saying you're a better source than the games themselves, then we can continue.

..........I just provided two quotes directly from the game about chaos' power alongisde a quote saying chaos' power destroys the universe.

Not only is what you said wrong, I consider it n insult asking me if I've ever played a Xenosaga game. I've played all 3 and beaten all 3 a half-dozen times at least.



I'm not the guy who just flatly ignored two sources saying chaos destroys the universe.
Please stop being so condescending when you are being a flagrant hypocrite.

Sorry chief, but all your quotes say is that he destroys dimensional space or dimensional "universe," a synonym for the lower domain. If you play the games you'd realize that all he does is destroy the lower domain of the universe if its threatening the higher domain. He's a failsafe because he protects the universe as a whole by destroying one part of it if that part threatens the rest. Chaos is not a universe buster, he simply takes out a portion of it. What he does is akin to amputating gangrene infected legs to save the head and torso. There's still only one universe, just divided into domains. U-DO is confined to this one universe.

Exdeath and Ultimcia, on the other hand, have conclusive proof of their ability to wipe out universes. U-DO is part of one dimension, and is a pathetic nothing to either of them.

Please, educate yourself on the character before debating them.

Fascist, you are one to talk, considering you clearly have yet to finish Elementary School.

Nowhere is dimensional universe used as a synonym for the lower domain. Sorry.



I just said that. Please stop being so conceited.

The lower domain is the universe.



Alas all quotes in the game disagree with you. For extra nail in teh coffin, from the official Perfect Guide:

"the Failsafe would have activated, spreading across the entire universe in the blink of an eye"

I have ALL sources on my side. If you disagree, provide your sources please.



U-DO is above a universe-buster. ExDeath hasn't even destroyed a planet and all he has is hyperbole.



Considering I'm the only one providing evidence I know more than you.

Pyron, all you've done is contradict both the FF and Xenosaga series.

Play the games, they say that there is but one universe divided into domains. That's stated very explicitly. Its like how this universe could contain where we reside and Heaven or some other afterlife. Still just one universe.

Here, you're so fond of using the erfect guide, here's info straight from it saying there is just one universe with two domains:

http://translations.xenotensei.com/Xeno3/images/Xeno3PG_img01.png


Here's its quote about the power of Anima, which is the power of CHaos:

<<The Power of Anima>>
　　　　The power of Anima is what carries the function of the Failsafe.
　　　　Due to the rejecting consciousnesses in the imaginary domain, the Collective Unconscious disperses, and the lower domain collapses, which then spreads to the upper domain. The power of Anima is the power that "safely" eliminates only the lower domain -- the Dimensional Universe -- in order to avoid the worst-case situation where the entire universe would end up being allowed to collapse. In a manner of speaking, it is the function that completely deletes the Dimensional Universe.

I've given evidence from 5 games, two Ultimanias, and even the source material you're arguing from. Seing as how all you've done is say "nuh uh" and "i'm right the game is wrong, wahh!!!" then I'll take this post as your concession to me.

Thanks for being able to admit you were wrong, it must be hard considering you're so biased against FF you debate against it at every turn and admit your hatred for it.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Fascist, you are one to talk, considering you clearly have yet to finish Elementary School.

Knock it off, please. Thank you.

Uh-oh, what's this? From the Xenosaga iii Perfect Guide:

Eternal Recurrence restarts the Lower Domain from the Big Bang.

What? The Lower Domain has a Big Bang? The thing that makes a universe?



Um...if you want to get technical Heaven existed before the universe thus it is not part of the universe. Heaven would not be destroyed if the universe was.
Your metaphor fails.

The Lower Domain is one universe. The Upper Domain is something different entirely.

Also fascist that was the first source you've given. You've said a lot but haven't shown anything despite my repeated pleas. I asked you for a link to a Dissidia Ultimania to back up your claim that it says it's canon. You did not.

Also, once more, Ex-Death's own statement does not equal fact. You need to learn that.

The prefect guide is right in front of your face saying that it is simply a small part of the universe, and now you're trying to argue against that? You might want to rethink your priorities, is it worth it to let your hatred for FF make you look silly?

Thanks for playing, but I'm afraid I don;t have a consolation prize for you.

Eternal Recurrence restarts the Lower Domain from the Big Bang.

Definition of Big Bang for you:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:big+bang&ei=LwavSZvWKaGbtwfR5ZyFBg&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Perfect Guide says the Lower Domain had a Big Bang. It is a universe.

For further in-game proof, in Episode 1 when the party boards Proto Merkabah, they see a full diagram of, GASP, the UNIVERSE. Of course there's no mention of a higher domain...it's just the universe.

The Lower Domain is a universe. You lose.

No, champ, the lower domain is not a universe. It is simply one little area of the universe.

Look at the the picture again:

http://translations.xenotensei.com/Xeno3/images/Xeno3PG_img01.png

See how it says that the universe encompasses both the upper and lower domains? That means that the lower domain is merely one part of the universe, and that it resides within a single universe. Once again, thanks for your concession.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Eternal Recurrence restarts the Lower Domain from the Big Bang.

Definition of Big Bang for you:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:big+bang&ei=LwavSZvWKaGbtwfR5ZyFBg&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Perfect Guide says the Lower Domain had a Big Bang. It is a universe.

For further in-game proof, in Episode 1 when the party boards Proto Merkabah, they see a full diagram of, GASP, the UNIVERSE. Of course there's no mention of a higher domain...it's just the universe.

The Lower Domain is a universe. You lose.

Concession accepted fascist. Better luck next time. Don't try and argue against the guide that says the Lower Domain was created with a universe-creating explosion.

Shall I also post, again, the quote saying the Failsafe effects the universe? Shall I post the quote from the game saying the same thing (again)?

I have all the quotes on my side from the Perfect Guide and the game.

You don't have any quotes on your side, silly, that's why you conceded to me, remember?

Here, let me break it down for you:

You said:



The perfect guide says:

U-DO exists inside of a single universe
http://translations.xenotensei.com/Xeno3/images/Xeno3PG_img01.png

You said:



The perfect guide says:

Just one universe with different domains.
http://translations.xenotensei.com/Xeno3/images/Xeno3PG_img01.png

You said:



The guide says:



You've been wrong about the game you claim to have played so often at every turn, sorry.

Poor poor fascist. Can't get anything right. Here, let me help.

I said:


The Guide says:


Guide also says:


Since the universe being reset doesn't effect U-DO, he's beyond universal. Point Proven.

I said:


The Guide Says:


The Guide also says:


Since the guide already established the main Lower Domain is a universe, there are other universes.

However I was wrong about the last part. Dimensional universe is called the Lower Domain. Sorry.



No, I've been absolutely right about the games I've played and beaten numerous times. Your lack of knowledge of what Big Bang is doesn't change reality.

Lower Domain was created by a universe-creating explosion. Fact. The Lower Domain is a universe.

Might I also remind everyone Xenosaga takes place thousands of years in the future of OUR world. Fascist is claiming we don't live in a universe.

Doesn't Gilgamesh prove the fact that the universes are linked, seeing as how he accidentally calls one of the characters 'Bartz' in a game after 5? Just something I remember.

I already conceded Gilgamesh proves FFV and VIII are linked. That was an oversight on my part.

So yes there are multiple universes connected in FF but fascist has yet to show me a quote confirming Ex Death or Ultimecia can destroy multiple universes.

Pyron, you're just making yourself look dumb when you try to save face. You've already conceded, there's no need to keep looking silly.

And I already proved they could. Neo Exdeath was in the rift between universes when he said he would end existence, go play FF V. He wasn't just in FF V's universe when he said this, he was in the rift where the Void was housed that lets Gilgamesh travel between the universes. Exdeath > All of Zenosaga, he solos, end of thread.

Character statements aren't canon fact. If nothing says Ex Death can destroy multiple universes but himself, it's hyperbole.

And sorry but the only person who's conceded is you. Your ridiculous poisiton that we don't live in a universe is well..ridiculous.

The guide says we were created by a Big Bang. So does modern science. In fact, you're so wrong, both fictional and real science are allied against you and with me.

You've lost beyond all hope of salvation.

You mean nothing but Exdeath, the main characters, the warriors of dawn, and any material that speaks on the subject says he could. Please stop disagreeing with canon.

And let me post the picture for you yet again:

http://translations.xenotensei.com/Xeno3/images/Xeno3PG_img01.png

Its all in one, single universe, according to the creators themselves. I can't believe you're so blind that you think you know more than the perfect guide.

Really? Can you get me that "any material that speaks on the subject"?



Uh, fascist, I'm using the Perfect Guide.

See this quote?
"Eternal Recurrence restarts the Lower Domain from the Big Bang. "

That's from the Perfect Guide.

So I don't think i know more than the guide. I'm simply agreeing with the Guide.

Please stop trolling. We live in a universe. You are denying scientific fact.

Having a big bang doesn't make it a universe, silly, especially not when the guide explicitly states in multiple places that the lower domain is simply part of the universe. If there were an explosion of matter in our already existing universe that formed a new galaxy, that wouldn't make that galaxy a new universe. Please stop disagreeing with the creators of both series.

Once again:

The diagram says one universe

http://translations.xenotensei.com/Xeno3/images/Xeno3PG_img01.png

And again here it states that the lower domain is just one part of the universe.

The power of Anima is the power that "safely" eliminates only the lower domain -- the Dimensional Universe -- in order to avoid the worst-case situation where the entire universe would end up being allowed to collapse.

You've been exposed as ignorant of both xenosaga and final fantasy, and now you're just desperately grasping at straws like you usually do. Sorry sport, but all the available data sides with me.

/thread

Judging from that diagram, could it be that they are different dimensional plains of the same universe? Or perhapse a multiverse?

Its different parts of a single universe. There are the lower and upper domains, and the lower domain has real and imaginary domains, but they all exist in a single universe as the diagram and quote state.

Yes it does. A Big Bang creates a universe. That's the whole definition of it.
Also guess what? The Xenosaga universe is OUR universe. So yes,a Big Bang makes a universe.



Guess what? You're forgetting my other quote from the Perfect Guide:
"the Failsafe would have activated, spreading across the entire universe in the blink of an eye"

Huh. chaos' power spreads to the entire universe...except his power is contained to teh Lower Domain.

So there you go. Big Bang + quote about the universe = you're wrong.



Now you're making up things. The Big Bang makes UNIVERSES. The official creators said the Lower Domain was made with a Big Bang.

And for the last time, this is our universe. It features our Earth, Jesus, all that. We are a universe.



I know more about Xenosaga and Final Fantays than you. You're ignoring scientific fact and making up lies.
You're a disgrace to both series.

Darkstorm, you're a science-y guy. Here's a quote from the official guide:
""Eternal Recurrence restarts the Lower Domain from the Big Bang. ""

Also Xenosaga takes place in OUR future. The story started on Earth and bracnehd off from there.

So were we made with a Big Bang? Are we a universe?

So they are different dimensional plains then.

Well, going by that if they are linked like that, it would still take signifficant amounts of power to destroy a dimension from another dimension, and multiply that for each domain on top of that.

BUT, it pales in comparison to destroying multiple unrelated universes and timelines at once... by unlimited factors ...

Even if the Xenosaga has multiversal applications, Busting into unrelated universes is SIGNIFFICANTLY more difficult than doing it to a related one.

But admittedly, I know very little about the two game series beyond the superficial level with the exemption of FF8.

@ Pyron: A big bang? Thats a cosmic phenomenon thats theorised to create our physical universe, but doesnt affect incoporeal planes, like the psychic plane or the spiritual plane.

still, that would imply multiverse creation...

Give it up Pyron, everything shown has shot you down. This debate is over, Exdeath can destroy multiple universes, Ultimecia can absorb them, and U-DO is confined to one dimension with a couple of domain in it.

No one in Xenosaga or Final Fantasy has destroyed multiple universes.

Anyone notice how I've requested multiple times for evidence and fascist failed miserably?
Couldn't provide the evidence from the Dissidia Ultimania.
Couldn't provide the materials saying ExDeath can destroy multiple universes...

It's sad. You can't prove anything and your only real argument is ignoring sciencific fact.

Exdeath and Ultimecia were about to before PIS stepped in. Exdeath was sitting in the rift between universes that Gilgamesh uses as a highway between FF V, VIII and XII and allowed the Void to get to Garland in FF I when he became Neo Exdeath and said he would destroy all existence. He had the infinite power of the Void and was at the crossroads of universes, he was about to rape existence.

And I'm the only one who has provided any direct evidence. I've quoted multiple FF games and provided scans from the xenosaga perfect guide. Your only "evidence" has been outright lying about what the perfect guide says the lower domain is, and trying to take one quote out of context to disprove the rest of the guide.

Character claims are not fact.
In fact going by character claims, U-DO has infinite power. So you can't beat infinity with infinity.

No, champ, thats not a character claim. The Void is stated by everyone involved to be something of infinite power capable of erasing existence. If it wasn't a big deal no one would worry about it, much less have risked their lives and traveled across two planets and the rif to stop Exdeath from obtaining it.

What? You haven't provided any quotes. You've said "this is said here" but that's not providing quotes from multiple games.



My evidence is knowing what the hell a Big Bang is and showing the guide clearly says the Lower Domain was made by one.
Which is obvious to anyone with a brain since the Lower Domain is our world...which is a universe and was made by the Big Bang.

Again, you ignore scientific fact and have nothing whatsoever on your side.

I edited my post guys...

Infinite vs Infinite?

Well what happenswhen an unstoppable force meets an immovable object? Nothing... They cancel eachother out.

If I had nothing on my side you wouldn't be ignoring the vast majority of the perfect guide, sport. If the lower domain was a universe they wouldn't call it a part of the universe and make a diagram showing it as simply being within the universe.

Listen to this guy....
"thats not a character claim"
Then...
"The Void is stated by everyone"

The hell?

Again, character claim. U-DO has infinite power too according to characters.

U-DO is only infinite in the context of its own universe. The Void is beyond the universal scale, as is time compression Ultimecia. Two multi universe destroyers cancel out an entity bound to one universe, as he would be destroyed along with the rest of the universe if either of these two attacked it.



And its only "infinite" in its own universe. If something more powerful than one universe wiped out its plane of existence, it too would be destoryed.

Do yout hink the Japanese have a term for multiverse? Have you ever heard it said in any anime? In fact, Tenchi Muyo has multiple universes but they're just called dimensions. It has a multiverse but nowhere is the term used there.

So again, science is on my side. A Big Bang make sa universe and it made the Lower Domain.

No, chief, science isn't on your side. The laws of physics, mathematics, chemistry, etc are broken all the time in fictional universes. That's like trying to apply newton's laws to Tifa in Advent Children, it just doesn;t work that way, son.

The Japanese know full well the difference between a universe and a multiverse, and even then they don't distinguish that here. Dimensions aren't universes, if that were the case then Jedah would be a universe buster, and all he took out was something small than a solar system. If they mean universe, they wouldn't have called them domains of one universe.

Stop pulling things out of your ass, this debate is already over, and you lost.

Do we know if U-DO resides in a physical dimension or an incoporeal one, because that would determine for me if its multiversal or not.

But like I said beforehand, it makes little difference to Neo EX-Death or TC Ultimecia, if Crusader is correct (And yess the Scan text for Ultimecia's final form says she was absorbing ALL existance including all universes, multiverses, and all timelines.)

Here's something from the perfect guide on the upper and lower domains:

<<The Upper Domain and the Lower Domain>>

The given names "Upper" and "Lower" for the domains are nothing more than relative names. It is like how the third dimension is to the second, or how the fourth dimension is to the third. Each possess an individual time axis and space axis, but as a whole, they are elements that form one universe. In addition, it is unknown even whether or not the lower domain's concept of time exists in the upper domain in the first place. But regardless, although the existing role and function differ in each due to their difference in structure, the lower domain is indispensable for the upper, and the upper domain is necessary for the lower. This is because they form a single universe with both parts included. Therefore, the dysfunction and collapse of one will exert an effect on the other as well.

Also, "Dimensional Universe" is a term that refers to the lower domain.

Big difference being that an event that took place in real life took place in Xenosaga.
Know why? Because Xenosaga takes place in the real world. Just in the future.

Real world = Big Bang made universe.
Xenosaga = Big Bang made universe.

It's simple as that. Science wins.



Now you think you know shit about Tenchi Muyo....
The 3rd Dimension in TM is the universe. There's a 4th, fifth and so-on up to the 13th or so dimension i think.

Also dimension is referred to as a universe in Marvel Comics.



Big Bang makes a universe. Science wins.

Science wins, but unfortunately for you science still isn't on your side.

And Marvel comics never calls dimensions universes. Dimensions are different parts of the same universe. 616 is the universe, but the dimensions such as ours, Mephisto's realm, etc are all different dimensions in it. You're failing left and right here.

Dimensional Universe refers to the Lower Domain which was made by a universe-creating Big Bang.

Except for the fact that its not a universe, its simply a part of it. Did you read what I typed or are you just unable to quit when you've lost?

Really now? Well tell me. What does a Big Bang do then according to science if it doesn't make a universe? That's the only way science disagrees with me.


http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/748/w1ka9.jpg

So yes universes are referred to as dimensions in Marvel.

Actually Universes are set in as a plain of existance. A universe contains all existance relative to that existance, including alternate dimensions, mirrored dimensions, parallel dimensions, infinite alternate timelines... A universe, and multiverses for that matter are effectively nearly endless and limitless.

Let go of the big bang thing, sweetie. A big bang is simply a dense cluster of matter and energy bursting outward, its very easy for one to make part of a universe, especially a fictional universe that doesn't have to follow the rules, even more so when it says its just part of one universe explicitly several times.

As for your quote thats calling the 616 universe a dimension, its a simple error. Inside of the single universe that is Earth 616, there is a multitude of different dimensions like Mephisto's realm. Stop trying to save face by getting off subject.

Please don't call me sweetie. I'm bisexual but I do not like you whatsoever.

A Big Bang made our universe. Guess what Xenosaga takes place in?

A Big Bang makes universes. The Lower Domain started with one. You lose.



I'll get the scan from the handbook later clearly stating a dimension can be called a universe just as I showed already.
It's happened many times.

Sorry champ, but I've already explained this to you. A big bang can create a universe, but that doesn't mean it has to. This is proved by the fact that the lower domain was created inside of the already existing universe, meaning its not a universe even though it came form a big bang. You've seen four seperate pieces of evidence now saying its a single universe, and you're still hung up on this.

I'm afraid that since all you can do is repeat the argument the perfect guide has shot down several times already, you're going to have to go on ignore. Sorry sport, hopefully some day you'll learn to debate.

Thanks for conceding.
I'm glad you've learn to listen to reason and accepted scientific fact.

Oh boy. Enough........ nobody's answered an earlier post I made, so I'll ask this one instead.

Can the domains be travelled to physically without interdimension means / portals?

No. In fact it requires one of the strongest things in the universe to travel to teh upper Domain.
However the real space and imaginary domains can be traveled to by various beings in Xenosaga.

Then they are either separate dimensional plains of the same universe, or they are relative universes in the same multiverse. Unless this force enables travel to unrelated multiverses, in which case I'd need an example.

Yes, the lower domain can access the upper domain. When this happens though a large influx of energy pours from the upper into the lower. It should also be noted that they have a symbiotic sort of relationship, the dysfunction or collapse of one significantly affects the other according to the perfect guide.



It doesn't allow for this. The only things accessible by U-DO or anything else in Xenosaga are the upper and lower domains, they can't reach outside of the one universe they are in.

Darkstorm, Xenosaga takes place in our future.

Coupled with the fact the guide itself says the Lower Domain (us) started with a Big Bang..we know the Lower Domain is a universe. Why? Because science knows we live in a universe and denying that is sheer stupidity.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Hearing the name of a game doesn't count as playing it, silly, and seeing a screenshot doesn't mean you've beaten it. I'm not a fanboy, I simply can view things objectively unlike an antifanboy such as yourself.

Wait. So you report people for calling you a fanboy, when you post stuff like this?

Have you ever heard of hypocrisy?

Also, I've never seen you be objective about anything before.

Anyway...
I'd just like to remind everyone that we do live in a universe, no matter what fascist says. Science says a Big Bang created us and since Xenosaga is us thousands of years in the future, we are a universe.
Thank you.

Pyron, you're still on my ignore but I don't want you lying to these good people, so I have to correct you. For starters, the Xenosaga universe isn't our universe anymore than the Star Trek universe is. They use names from our universe, but that doesn't make it ours, unless you actually believe in the future both Star Trek and Xenosaga will become reality. Please stop trying to desperately save face with mistruths. Here are the facts, the perfect guide says that the lower domain is simply a part of one universe, here it is for your enjoyment folks:





http://translations.xenotensei.com/Xeno3/images/Xeno3PG_img01.png

There it is, straight from the mouths of those who made the games. One universe with a few domains, not multiple universes.

Why yes, Trek and Xenosaga do both come from our world. Which means they both take place in a universe. Thank you.



fascist failed first grade science so here, let me show you all what the Perfect Guide really says.

Eternal Recurrence restarts the Lower Domain from the Big Bang.

Definition of Big Bang for you:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:big+bang&ei=LwavSZvWKaGbtwfR5ZyFBg&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Perfect Guide says the Lower Domain had a Big Bang. It is a universe.



Why yes it is. Straight from their mouths they tell us the Lower Domain is a universe.

I'll repost a quote from the Guide just for fun:
"the Failsafe would have activated, spreading across the entire universe in the blink of an eye"

And the Failsafe only effects the Lower Domain...yet it spreads across the universe...hm.

Fascist doesn't know anything about Xenosaga folks. Don't mind him.

Err, yeah, actually, ST would be in our universe. However, it's known as fiction. It's not real.

Exactly. They're fictional futures of what is real. Hence why ST and Xenosaga both make references to real life things that happened here on Earth.

xenosaga takes this pretty convincingly. not only does it have phenomenon which can stand toe to toe with final ultimecia/necron {e.g. anima/chaos, zarathustra, zohar, omega metapsychosis} it also has the encaphalon{i beleive thats what it was called} which effectively makes these things work on a multiversal scale and not least of all, you have u-do who is beyond the entire lower domain multiverse and has nearly the power to destroy the entire damn thing. no1 in final fantasy has that sort of power.

Exdeath has the ability to wipe all universes out of existence. Nothing in Xenosaga exists outside of one universe, much less can destroy multiple, so Neo Exdeath solos. Same with TC Ultimecia, she was absorbing all reality. U-DO, Anima, Zarathustra, etc would simply be absorbed by her with the rest of the universe, becoming extensions of her.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Exdeath has the ability to wipe all universes out of existence. Nothing in Xenosaga exists outside of one universe, much less can destroy multiple, so Neo Exdeath solos. Same with TC Ultimecia, she was absorbing all reality. U-DO, Anima, Zarathustra, etc would simply be absorbed by her with the rest of the universe, becoming extensions of her. ]
you mean the idiot that got killed by his own attack will solo all them? no ex death won't. as for ultemcia she can only do that if they are knocked out. plus the xeno guys do believe in their friends so she lose anyway.

what's next kuja will solo? I laugh if you think he can.

Neo Exdeath was destroyed by PIS, not his own attack. Neo Exdeath is Exdeath fused with the Void which is limitless in power and destructive capabilities. If it weren't for PIS he would have used the Void to erase all universes, as he was sitting in the rift between them.

Until a Xeno character can leave his universe and threaten to destroy multiple universes, they are all helpless before the Void.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Neo Exdeath was destroyed by PIS, not his own attack. Neo Exdeath is Exdeath fused with the Void which is limitless in power and destructive capabilities. If it weren't for PIS he would have used the Void to erase all universes, as he was sitting in the rift between them.

Until a Xeno character can leave his universe and threaten to destroy multiple universes, they are all helpless before the Void.

it wasn't a universe it was a alternate realm, so he can destroy the universe. then there's the fact that both the parallel worlds were once the same world that split so that means he was simply voiding his own world.

No, he wasn't in FF V's universe when he become Neo Exdeath, he was in the rift between universes. This means he wasn't going to just destroy his universe with both of those planets in it, he was going to destroy every universe. Canonically wee have prrof that the rift allows for access to the universe of FFI, FF V, FF VII/X, FF VIII and FF XII thanks to the Void letting Garland time travel and Gilgamesh traveling the other, so he would have wiped out at least five separate universes.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No, he wasn't in FF V's universe when he become Neo Exdeath, he was in the rift between universes. This means he wasn't going to just destroy his universe with both of those planets in it, he was going to destroy every universe. Canonically wee have prrof that the rift allows for access to the universe of FFI, FF V, FF VII/X, FF VIII and FF XII thanks to the Void letting Garland time travel and Gilgamesh traveling the other, so he would have wiped out at least five separate universes. proof of this travels?

Have you played FF VI, VIII or XII? Gilgamesh wanders different universes via the rift looking for various swords. We know he visited the universe of VII/X because he has relics from it. We also know from Garland's back story in the Dissidia Ultimania that he was able to cause the time loop because of the Void, which was in the rift from FF V.

Ah yes, the Dissidia Ultimania you've failed to post a link to several times...
Don't listen to fascist, Phanteros. He doesnt' even understand simple science and he's trying to say Ex Death can destroy multiple universes based on nothing.
Lol he said the source material proved he could..yet when asked for that material, he was once again silent...
He can't prove anything it seems.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbjpeg5dBuo

>>>> Ultimecia. Ulty got beat to death by this chick and her pals.

While on the other hand, Yuriev with only a bit of U-DO's power was completely unstoppable. And this was against the party in their E.S.es...any single E.S. could kill the entire FFVIII party in a nanosecond.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Exdeath has the ability to wipe all universes out of existence. Nothing in Xenosaga exists outside of one universe, much less can destroy multiple, so Neo Exdeath solos. Same with TC Ultimecia, she was absorbing all reality. U-DO, Anima, Zarathustra, etc would simply be absorbed by her with the rest of the universe, becoming extensions of her.

dimensions in ff are not the same as UNIVERSES. have you even PLAYED a xenosaga game?! through the encaphalon you can visit alternate universes and timestreams where events happen differently and the past can be subjectively changed. that is how abel's ark was brought into real space, that is how the team can visit lost jerusalem. i cud go on, udo is present and effects ALL these universes. ultimecia was absorbing ONE universe and if youve already forgotten, she was beaten, as was ex death.

Have you read the Xenosaga perfect guide, leonheart? It says very, very clearly on three separate occasions that U-DO only exists in ONE universe. This isn't debataable, its flat out said by the games creators. One universe with different domains, end of story.

As for FF, they aren't dimensions, they are entirely seperate universes. For example, the one universe of FF IX has different dimension such as Memoria and the Crystal World. We see very clearly that Neo Exdeath was at the universal crossroads and had the power to destroy all of these different universes through the Void, and we also know Ultimecia was absorbing all of existence. Neo Exdeath and Ultimecia were defeated by PIS, this isn't a valid point.

So we have a few facts here. According to the creators of Xenosaga through very specific comments and diagrams, we know U-DO is confined to one universe, he can just visit the domains of it. We also know that the Void can affect many different FF universes and that Neo Exdeath is the Void incarnate. Exdeath > U-DO as his power is limitless in all dimension, he rape stomps all of Xenosaga.

Again, fascist is completely unable to provide a single source outside a fallible character saying Ex Death can destroy universes.
He has no argument whatsoever.

PIS doesn't exist. It's a fanboys' excuse when things don't go their way. Ex Death and Ultimecia lost is all there is to it. Their power is pathetic and they are pathetic and nothing official says they can do the things you boast.

I beg to differ on the anti PIS comment there Pyro.

PIS and CIS does exist, there are many plot-points that affected characters in ways that should never have happened, and are disreguarded because it conflicts with a characters power-sets, a major example would be the entire Orochi thing from KOF, or Pyron being defeated.

The only thing to watch out for, is the mis-use of PIS/CIS, and the fact is, Ultimecia was PISed to high hell... Being defeated by the power of friendship? thats easily a level 9 "WTF!"

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Again, fascist is completely unable to provide a single source outside a fallible character saying Ex Death can destroy universes.
He has no argument whatsoever.

PIS doesn't exist. It's a fanboys' excuse when things don't go their way. Ex Death and Ultimecia lost is all there is to it. Their power is pathetic and they are pathetic and nothing official says they can do the things you boast. Funny, cause last I checked Ultimecia was said to be absorbing all reality and was actually shown doing it.

No she wasn't. Please don't tell me you think those little flickering light things are stars....
Because then the party are larger than stars.

And absorbing reality does not equal absorbing multiple universes. That's facists's claim which he can't prove whatsoever.

EDIT:
Just checked. Ultimecia's scan says she's absorbing existence as we speak...but we never see her absorb anything. Just a fancy light show.

Pyron... Please tell me your not now resorting to discrediting feats...

Look, we clearly see she is absorbing the fabric of reality, pulling it all in, now obvoiusly she is very small physically, but the fact is she is compressing the universe and absorbing all of it, which even includes the boundries that separate universes (void).

Thus, creating a chain reaction breakdown of several universes and their related dimensions at once. making her an even greater threat than Neo Ex-Death. We've never seen anything like this from Xenosaga, even U-DO didn't come anywhere near this, this is why a few people are arguing against it, because it's an established feat for her.

Lmh7wm6Yn3I

Where do we see her absorbing the fabric of existence in this video then?
I see pretty lights and random graphics.



Well, for one, U-DO never tried to do anything like that.

So your argument is a domino effect. She effects on euniverse and this messes up the others?

I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time taking this seriously. This ***** got her ass kicked by Selphie. She couldn't even do Time Compression without a machine AND the party helping her. Now she's stronger than someone like Galactus? Galactus only destroyed solar systems and moved galaxies..he's no match for Ultimecia the multi-universal threat!
Gimme a break...

Final Fantasy due to Timewarping and universe eating entities.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Have you read the Xenosaga perfect guide, leonheart? It says very, very clearly on three separate occasions that U-DO only exists in ONE universe. This isn't debataable, its flat out said by the games creators. One universe with different domains, end of story.

As for FF, they aren't dimensions, they are entirely seperate universes. For example, the one universe of FF IX has different dimension such as Memoria and the Crystal World. We see very clearly that Neo Exdeath was at the universal crossroads and had the power to destroy all of these different universes through the Void, and we also know Ultimecia was absorbing all of existence. Neo Exdeath and Ultimecia were defeated by PIS, this isn't a valid point.

So we have a few facts here. According to the creators of Xenosaga through very specific comments and diagrams, we know U-DO is confined to one universe, he can just visit the domains of it. We also know that the Void can affect many different FF universes and that Neo Exdeath is the Void incarnate. Exdeath > U-DO as his power is limitless in all dimension, he rape stomps all of Xenosaga.

the facist, the perfect guide wasnt written by the story writers who left the project midway or later{part of the reason xenosaga didnt get to make 6 games as it was supposed to}. its a pathetic attempt to try and reconcile an unfinished story and not only contradicts the strory, but all out fails to understand the subtler references to mythology {e.g. gnostic concept of two messiahs the preacher and chaos, who is called YESHUA., which was jesus's real name, or the concept of twin gods, as chaos and udo, or archetypes and horsemen, or the maiden of mary who was actually jesus's child }. the most valid source of information is the continually updated IN GAME DATABASE, and that is my source. any1 who has played xenosaga through will know this.

and tell me, if there is only one universe then what is the encaphalon?????????? and how was abel's ark summoned????

udo exists simultaneously in all time streams and all alternate unievrses in the encaphalon, this isnt debateable. it exists in its own HIGHER dimension but affects the entire multiverse.

and also , how can you SEE very clearly that he is standing at a crossroads of UNIVERSE? were there signs poitning to each universe. or can you sumhow see in higher dimension in 16 bit that others cant and SEE universes? ultimecia was absorbing one universe.

your "facts" have just been redefined.

Hmm... In my opinion Final Fantasy wins.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Hmm... In my opinion Final Fantasy wins.

Obviously it does with Neo Exdeath, Ultimecia, and Dissidia's Chaos being reality destroyers.

If this was a sole FF world like IV, VII, IX, or X, Xenosaga is gonna win.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
Obviously it does with Neo Exdeath, Ultimecia, and Dissidia's Chaos being reality destroyers.

If this was a sole FF world like IV, VII, IX, or X, Xenosaga is gonna win.

Indeed. Ultimecia solos.

Is U-DO not a supreme being?

If he is, this can only be a draw, Dissidia introduced a supposed supreme being into the series, called the "Great Will," which apparently possesses more power than an amped Chaos.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Is U-DO not a supreme being?

If he is, this can only be a draw

In the FF universe are more supreme beings. If this include ALL the FF series then Hyne is there.

Hyne is not a supreme being.

U-DO is the best thing Xenosaga has to offer, and it is confined to a single universe. Ultimecia and Exdeath can wipe out not just their universes, but most likely other universes through the Void and Time Compression/Reality Absorption. Then there's Chaos, who not only can but did destroy multiple universes keeping only the parts he wished, and was about to destroy the entire multiverse. FF takes this in a stomp.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Hyne is not a supreme being.

You're right, Hyne is a normal human.

Incorrect.

Hyne created humanity, he was not human.

Then I was right when I said Hyne was supreme?

No.

Ok, what is Hyne, then?

A deity, albeit a fallible one.

So we can't call Hyne a God or supreme being? I thought that was said in the game itself, I don't remember well, sorry.
Either way, a being that made all humanity must be supreme, I guess.

Doesn't Ultimecia possess only half of Hyne's powers as well?

Kinda.

She possesses half of Hyne's "body," but this is compared to being equivelent to Hyne's dead skin.

Hmm...if one of the gods count from Dissidia and Ultimecia is as powerful as it is claimed, then wow...even Xenosaga's galaxy busters lose.

The Hyne thing doesn't really matter, as the half of it that Ultimecia had was only her main power in her most basic form. TC Ultimecia is far, far, faaaaaar more powerful than him.

Yeah... No.

Ultimecia's personal power is not described as being equivelant to Hyne's "weaker" half. The ENTIRE Sorceress Power is, you know? That thing she had to absorb in order for her to have the power to absorb the universe?

Allowing some speculation, Hyne is probably the single most powerful character in Final Fantasy.

Ultimecia did have all of the sorcerress power, given that she was the last sorceress left by her time she was the only place it could be. She had that whole half of him, and with it she still wasn't even an eigth as powerful as she became when she was absorbing all of spacetime.

Hyne is not as powerful as Chaos, TC Ultimecia, Exdeath with the Void, and probably the Cloud of Darkness, which is basically a feminine Neo Exdeath.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Ultimecia's personal power is not described as being equivelant to Hyne's "weaker" half. The ENTIRE Sorceress Power is, you know? That thing she had to absorb in order for her to have the power to absorb the universe?

Allowing some speculation, Hyne is probably the single most powerful character in Final Fantasy.

I agree with this.

I'm afraid that Time Compression Ultimecia isn't as powerful as Hyne is.
Hyne is indeed one of the (if not the most) powerful being in the Final Fantasy Universe.

That makes no sense, given that he can't compress all of time and absorb the very fabric of reality. Nothing anywhere suggests he has any influence outside of the planet of FF VIII, much less that he could affect other universes as TC Ultimecia could do. He was defeated by mere humanity, not PIS, not super human warriors with GFs junctioned to them, a simple army of people with no magic to speak of. He only got away trhough trickery anyways. TC Ultimecia defeated the entire world through Time Compression alone, only a contrived plot device allowed her to be touchable and beaten, if it weren't for the silly "power of love and friendships" she would have defeated the universe without ever having to actually fight, placing her well above Hyne. Then there's still the fact that even with this entire half of his power, Ultimecia was millions of times weaker than she was in her Time Compression form.

That's a good point. We don't know what Hyne is capable of though, but if he has created humanity that's enough power to me. Hey, but the fact is that the Sorceress power is the half of his powers as is being said that he gave half of his body to the humanity and he ran away with the strong half. The team hadn't GFs junctioned nor Magic in the final battle, I remember that Ultimecia can easily destroy them, so is the same, an army composed by all the humanity is stronger than 6 teenagers warriors.

Time Compression Ultimecia not only had all the Sorceresses' power (Hyne's half body), she had also the Time, Space, the universe and almost all the existence in that point, considering that then yes, she was more powerful than Hyne, probably. In conclusion, Hyne created life, Ultimecia ended it.

Originally posted by NemeBro
thing you do, that Ultimecia possessed the entire Sorceress Power to start, but SHM proved me wrong. Will find the quote. Assuming I muster the necessary will to give a shit.

That reminds me of 25 qoutes I never went back to find to back my arguments

Aside from that Hyne only gave up little less than half of his powers or weaker half, something of the sorts. Haven't played the game in a while especially considering I don't own a playstation anymore.

Ok, look at it this way. Time COmpression Ultimecia would have been the omnipotent ruler of her entire universe. All of it's space and time were becoming merely extensions of her. Hyne was not omnipotent, he fought many monsters that existed beyond his control in the universe and needed to create mankind to help him after he grew tired.

This again proves Ultimecia as the superior being.

Everything Ultimecia did was due to her possession of the vastly weaker other half of Hyne's power.

Yet Hyne is incapable of the same ability?

Ultimecia never achieved any omnipotence, so we cannot say she would have been.

He fought many monsters of unknown power. So yeah, does not discredit Hyne.

Yes it does. Time COmpression is not a power of Hyne's, her base power was all done with his weaker half, but she ascended to exponentially higher levels of power. Then there's the fact that monsters don't have love and friendship to protect them, if Hyne didn't want to fight them and he was as powerful as Ultimecia he would have just time compressed and absorbed them.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Yes it does. Time COmpression is not a power of Hyne's, her base power was all done with his weaker half, but she ascended to exponentially higher levels of power. Then there's the fact that monsters don't have love and friendship to protect them, if Hyne didn't want to fight them and he was as powerful as Ultimecia he would have just time compressed and absorbed them. Let me put it this way.

Shut the **** up and prove she had the entire weaker half of the Great Hyne at base.

Monsters existed in Time Compression. As we clearly saw.

Ultimecia was the last sorceress of her time, all sorceresses transfer there power to the next one. Because energy doesn't just disappear she had to have had the sum total of the sorceress power, it's impossible for her to not have it.

And monsters only existed before Ultimecia's absorption of the universe. At that point all reality, monsters included, were becoming a part of her.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
if Hyne didn't want to fight them and he was as powerful as Ultimecia he would have just time compressed and absorbed them.

Indeed, Hyne doesn't have the same abilities. But as far as I know he isn't an evil being or anything so why compare him to Ultimecia, why he would destroy the universe?

The Ultimania translations you gave me states this:

"Sorceresses

Said to have existed from time immemorial to the present day, the sorceresses
are women who are said to have received their powers from the old god, Hyne."


The potential to become a sorceress is determined by one's capacity to wield
such power -- their natural affinity for magic.

This could also mean that Ultimecia had that "capacity" to control such power.

I believe I might play through FF8 again to find the qoutes on Hyne's power

Originally posted by NemeBro
Assuming I muster the necessary will to give a shit.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
U-DO is the best thing Xenosaga has to offer, and it is confined to a single universe. Ultimecia and Exdeath can wipe out not just their universes, but most likely other universes through the Void and Time Compression/Reality Absorption. Then there's Chaos, who not only can but did destroy multiple universes keeping only the parts he wished, and was about to destroy the entire multiverse. FF takes this in a stomp.

Wrong on so many levels.
Canon says there are multiple universes in Xenosaga. U-DO exists in a higher domain while the main Xenosaga series takes place in a single lower domain ie. universe. There are other lower domains and thus other universes. U-DO exists above them all.

U-DO is also not alone. U-DO's power is confirmed to be infinite but guess what? Canon also says there are multiple beings in the higher domain . This means there are an unknown number of beings who can destroy universes no problem.

****, chaos and Wilhelm are universe destroyers and theri power is nothing to U-DO and his kind.

Ultimecia is nothing.

I was checking all this topic, and fascistcrusader put an image showing Xenosaga's universe, and it is very clear that universe is composed by different domains, but is just a single universe. U-DO seems to reside in a higher domain, not universe.
What U-DO can do? He can erase the universe? He can make the Past, Present and Future a single moment? he can absorb all the existence and affect other universes? He can destroy multiple universes? Because these are fews of the feats that Ultimecia, ExDeath and Chaos can do. I think the U.R.T.Vs are enough to handle U-DO.

Chaos is an universe destroyer?! What?!

Ultimecia can solo.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I was checking all this topic, and fascistcrusader put an image showing Xenosaga's universe, and it is very clear that universe is composed by different domains, but is just a single universe. U-DO seems to reside in a higher domain, not universe.
What U-DO can do? He can erase the universe? He can make the Past, Present and Future a single moment? he can absorb all the existence and affect other universes? He can destroy multiple universes? Because these are fews of the feats that Ultimecia, ExDeath and Chaos can do. I think the U.R.T.Vs are enough to handle U-DO.

Chaos is an universe destroyer?! What?!

Ultimecia can solo.

I dunno about Xenosaga's universe and domains but I do know that chaos at full power can destroy the universe (or at least the lower domain) by simply existing. He's the universe's failsafe and his power had to be divided.

This is from the "Perfect Guide" or something:

<<The Upper Domain and the Lower Domain>>
　　　　

The given names "Upper" and "Lower" for the domains are nothing more than relative names. It is like how the third dimension is to the second, or how the fourth dimension is to the third. Each possess an individual time axis and space axis, but as a whole, they are elements that form one universe. In addition, it is unknown even whether or not the lower domain's concept of time exists in the upper domain in the first place. But regardless, although the existing role and function differ in each due to their difference in structure, the lower domain is indispensable for the upper, and the upper domain is necessary for the lower. This is because they form a single universe with both parts included. Therefore, the dysfunction and collapse of one will exert an effect on the other as well.

I guess is pretty clear about the different domains. Is just a single universe.

If you read the topic, you saw I pointed out how the official guide says the lower domain featured in the games was birthed by a Big Bang.
A Big Bang, according to every definition known, makes a universe.

And since Xenosaga takes place in OUR UNIVERSE, just in the future, I see no reason to doubt this definition.



He's completely beyond the time of a universe. That's why the universe resetting does nothing to him.

And yes, he can erase the universe.




Yes.



I'm really doubting you read this topic.

"the Failsafe would have activated, spreading across the entire universe in the blink of an eye"

Failsafe = chaos. chaos activating his powers at the end of EP3 would have destroyed the universe in the blink of an eye had they not stopped it.



Tell me, when did Ultimecia destroy a universe in the blink of an eye?

Different dimensions exist in different planes of existence.

That's more than one universe.

Xenosaga takes place in our universe? In the future? Where it says that?

Why that part of the quote says: "This is because they form a single universe" if they are different universes? Why that image is pointing just at a single universe, then?

Those domains seems to be like different dimensions or something not different universes.

The first game opens with something happening on Earth and then skips ahead 4000 years.

Then there's the fact the characters reference everything from modern science and religion to the Wizard of Oz and songs.
Oh and Jesus is there.



Fine, let's go with your idea. It is a single universe. The lower domain is still the size of our universe because it is our universe and it was made by a Big Bang. it's composed of multiple galaxies.

Destroying the Lower Domain wuld still be universe-level busting because you did in fact destroy something the size of a universe.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to argue over Xenosaga because I've played the three games but that was years ago and I don't remember basically anything, so you may be right about your stance, however I have some doubts, that's why I'm asking.

What if they name Jesus and the religion? That makes the Xenosaga universe automatically our future?

It is not my idea, it is common sense.
That Big Bang may be not the same as ours, and yet we have few evidence that created our universe anyway.

"The Zohar was already in existence from the time of this universe's birth, i.e. the Big Bang."
"ternal Recurrence restarts the Lower Domain from the Big Bang."
http://translations.xenotensei.com/Xeno3/PerfectGuide.html

And like I said, Xenosaga 1 starts on modern Earth and then actually says 4000 years in the future.

A Big Bang makes a universe as the guide itself clearly says. The Lower Domain, even if we say it is just a dimension, is universe-sized.

Hey, thanks for that, I wanted to check that guide.

A fictional modern Earth you mean, like the Earth in Final Fantasy VIII, or many "Earths" in many different series/universes. Nothing suggest that they are talking about OUR universe, OUR Earth. To be honest, I never heard something like that.

I'll be checking that guide with full attention.
So the Lower Domain is now universe-sized? Just because it was started by a thing called: 'Big Bang'? So in the Lower Domain resides different Galaxies?

Since when was it Earth in FFVIII?
Not like it matters. The Earth iN Xenosaga is specifically called Earth and several historical things are referenced in it.



Big Bangs make universes according to all definitions, including the Guide. So the Lower Domain has to be universe-sized.
And yes, there are multiple galaxies. Xenosaga itself takes place in a separate galaxy because Wilhelm sealed off the Milky Way.

The planet in the Final Fantasy VIII universe is called the Earth.
Ok, name me some of those historical things.

Hmm... I see.
So Domain = Universe-sized?