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What are the 10 most powerful beings/artifacts in the Marvel universe, including ones that don't exist anymore?

I know this has been done before but can't find it and I also know this isn't exactly a "versus" thread but don't know where else to put it.

Obviously TOAA is #1, take it from there.

Beyonder
Akhenaton
Alien Entity
Scathan
Edifice Rex
LT
Infinity Being
Oblivion
Eternity
Protege

TOAA
M'kraan crystal
Pre Ret Beyonder
HOTI
LT
Phoenix Force
IG
Eternity/Infinity
Cosmic Cubes
Abstracts(Order, Chaos, Death etc)
Celestials

Im not bothering with all of the obscure characters like Protege and Edifice Rex. Just the ones that regularly feature in debates and within continuity. Furthermore i cant be bothered to argue about the positioning of Phoenix relative to the IG. IG has more consistent high showings, Phoenix has a feat that trumps any the IG has ever done and on top of that according to current continuity its power stems from the Big Bang which is the formless essence of the Phoenix. Its debatable. Lets not turn this into a big thing. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
TOAA
M'kraan crystal
Pre Ret Beyonder
HOTI
LT
Phoenix Force
IG
Eternity/Infinity
Cosmic Cubes
Abstracts(Order, Chaos, Death etc)
Celestials

Im not bothering with all of the obscure characters like Protege and Edifice Rex. Just the ones that regularly feature in debates and within continuity. Furthermore i cant be bothered to argue about the positioning of Phoenix relative to the IG. IG has more consistent high showings, Phoenix has a feat that trumps any the IG has ever done and on top of that according to current continuity its power stems from the Big Bang which is the formless essence of the Phoenix. Its debatable. Lets not turn this into a big thing. Just my opinion. IG is so much stronger than Phoenix it's not even funny, I disagree with everything you just said.

*turns it into a big thing*

I always respect ur opinion

Originally posted by guy222
I always respect ur opinion


Awww thank you.

1. The heel of Batman's foot
2. Cap America's shield
3. Wolverine's claws
4. Galatus's anus 24 hrs after he eats a planet

Originally posted by K-Dog
1. The heel of Batman's foot
2. Cap America's shield
3. Wolverine's claws
4. Galatus's anus 24 hrs after he eats a planet

You left out Hulk's pants. Batman isn't Marvel, anyway.

Quanchi's Thanos
Hulk's Pants
Berserker Wolverine
Normal Wolverine
Bone-Claw Wolverine
Mind-Controlled Wolverine
The snake who KO'd Hulk
Red Hulk
TOAA
Beyonder

Originally posted by Enyalus
You left out Hulk's pants. Batman isn't Marvel, anyway.

Aww you beat me to it, the pants are indeed powerful

This list is devoid of all the flash-in-the-pan hyper mutants like MJJ, HoM Wanda etc.

TOAA
PR Beyonder
Heart
IG
Scathan
Protege
LT
Edifice Rex
Oblivion
The rest of the Abstracts(Eternity, Death etc.)
Celestials
Galactus

ZOM might need to be included

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
This list is devoid of all the flash-in-the-pan hyper mutants like MJJ, HoM Wanda etc.

TOAA
PR Beyonder
Heart
IG
Scathan
Protege
LT
Edifice Rex
Oblivion
The rest of the Abstracts(Eternity, Death etc.)
Celestials
Galactus

I thought LT was above the IG. He did render it useless.

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
I thought LT was above the IG. He did render it useless. With Warlock's consent.

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
I thought LT was above the IG. He did render it useless.

I'm unconvinced.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I'm unconvinced.

lmfao.

What exactly is funny?

Pre-retcon Beyonder/THOTI
Pre-retcon Molecule Man
LT
IG
Abraxas
Abstracts (Eternity, Death, Galactus........)
Celestials (obviously not including TOAA backed Scathan)
Phoenix force
Watchers
Skyfathers

Can't be bothered to make a more "complete" list than that. This is all IMO!

Guys, the Phoenix Force is the second most powerful thing in the Marvel Universe. Uatu said so.

toaa
pre retconned beyonder
heart of the universe
pre retcon molecule man
LT/infinite being{nemesis}
multi eternity/multi death
wanda with chaos wave
infinity gauntlett
protege
franklin richards
ultimate nullifier
mad jim jaspers most powerful version
genis vell {final photon}
phoenix force
the infinites
hyperstorm


note that due to the continuous logical paradoxes created by mixing the concept of UNIverse and MULTIverse in marvel mythos, it is extremely difficult to measure the actual extent of cosmic feats {e.g. the heart of the universe has in most contexts only destroyed a UNIverse and yet ended up killing LT, the multiversal guardian. also, the place of 616 is inconsistantly portrayed and contradictions still exist between the context of old feats and retconned feats concerning the nature of reality e.g. protege}

Pre-retcon Beyonder/THOTI
Pre-retcon Molecule Man
LT /IG (I'm not convinced as to which is more powerful)
UN
Abraxas

There are more obscure characters that probably deserve to be there like Rex and the Alien Entity, but I don't feel like going through all of them.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Guys, the Phoenix Force is the second most powerful thing in the Marvel Universe. Uatu said so.

The same Uatu that got himself punched the eff out by the guy in my sig?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The same Uatu that got himself punched the eff out by the guy in my sig?

Well, that makes him passive-aggressive to a retarded degree, not stupid.

Hmm an omniscient Watcher couldn't see himself getting punched by Rulk?

I claim Uatu's mind is suspect.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Hmm an omniscient Watcher couldn't see himself getting punched by Rulk?

I claim Uatu's mind is suspect.

An omniscient LT couldn't see himself getting owned by Thanos, Protege, and didn't know if he could take Warlock? I claim omniscience itself is suspect!!

And Loeb's PIS explains all.

The LT saw it, he's just lazy.

The Loeb force retards all.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The same Uatu that got himself punched the eff out by the guy in my sig?
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The Loeb force retards all.

Originally posted by quanchi112
With Warlock's consent.

Exactly. Ive been saying the same thing for years.

This list concers pre-retcon/deceased/depowered and current characters)

_________


TOAA (creator of Supreme Beings with a stroke of a pencil)

Pre-Retcon Beyonder/THOTI/Infinity Being (absolute Supreme Being Power)

Pre-Retcon Molecule Man (only Beyonder was above him)

Akhenaten - pre/depowered (mastered the power of THOTI)

Alien Entity (now the embodiment of the Big Bang that created the Marvelverse)

Scathan (from the Future - defeated Protege)

Protege (from the Future - if not for Scathan would've replaced LT)

LT (second to TOAA in the Present Marvel Universe)

Infinity Gauntlet (makes one "Supreme" beneath the LT)

Edifice Rex (power to return Marvel to it's Cosmic EGG)

HOM Wanda (restructured the entire Omniverse)

Classic MJJ/Jamie Braddock (MJJ was above Matrix/Merlyn
& Jamie warped a Multiversal Nexus effortlessly)

Matrix/Merlyn (power over all time/space in the Omniverse)

UN/CN (can nullify Reality & Abraxas's present existence)

Abraxas (embodiment of all destruction)

Photon (at full potential would wipe out Eternity/Infinity ... but was never realized)

Infinites/BeyonderS (Infinites were above Eternity
& a tiny fraction of the Beyonder's power creates CCUs)

Cosmic Containment Units (can remake Eternity)

Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion/Death (cornerstones of all Reality)

Lord Chaos & Master Order (maintain cosmic consonance)

Celestials (far more powerful than Cube beings)
Galactus (balance of Reality)

Phoenx Force (without it, the Stars would die)

Abtract Conceptual embodiments (love/hate ... etc)



****

It's funny, the Celestials are towards the bottom of this list,
and yet it's the Celestials that seeded Humanity
with the future destiny of overcoming the Abstracts (even LT)

***

And the LT was/is
and as far as Marvel is concerned will always be above the IG,
yes, definitely without any doubt until Marvel changes that fact.

Not sure I totally agree with your list there buddy.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

Not sure I totally agree with your list there buddy.
And?

You made a list, others made a list,
I'm not knocking anyone else's list though.

My list is based on all the Marvel comics I've read
concerning the characters in my list,
I'm not just taking names from a hat,
it's my conclusion
from what I've seen/read in Marvel Comics (on panel/handbooks/official Marvel sites)

I mesh all three sources and make an educated estimate according to the evidence.

I'm not knocking it. I'm mostly wondering why you have Alien Entity listed so high. His feat was pretty uber, but it's been duplicated and better. I'd say LT retconning the Brothers into guardians of their own megaverses trumps what Alien Entity did by a comfortable margin.

No need to take offense buddy. Just a friendly discussion.

That reminds me. I forgot to add the Pre-retcon Brothers to my list.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

I'm not knocking it. I'm mostly wondering why you have Alien Entity listed so high. His feat was pretty uber, but it's been duplicated and better. I'd say LT retconning the Brothers into guardians of their own megaverses trumps what Alien Entity did by a comfortable margin.
What the ALien Entity did has never been done before.

The Alien Entity (right now) until Marvel portrays otherwise,
is literally one with the Fires of Creation (original Big Bang)
AE literally created from withIN itself the "spark" that initiates that same Big Bang.

Amazing.

And, I should point out,
that the LT itself was created withIN said Big Bang like everything else in Marvel.

Only the AE & Reed were in existence before the Marvelverse came to be again.

Anyways, what the AE did is uber
but it's not the primary reason for placing it so high,
the reason behind it's status
is the fact that the AE merged with the Fires of Creation itself,
making it the embodiment of the Big Bang,
and thus the power behind all Marvelverse's existence.
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

No need to take offense buddy. Just a friendly discussion.
No offense taken, you're a true debater, I respect that always.

Originally posted by Mr Master
What the ALien Entity did has never been done before.

The Alien Entity (right now) until Marvel portrays otherwise,
is literally one with the Fires of Creation (original Big Bang)
AE literally created from withIN itself the "spark" that initiates that same Big Bang.

Amazing.

And, I should point out,
that the LT itself was created withIN said Big Bang like everything else in Marvel.

Only the AE & Reed were in existence before the Marvelverse came to be again.

Anyways, what the AE did is uber
but it's not the primary reason for placing it so high,
the reason behind it's status
is the fact that the AE merged with the Fires of Creation itself,
making it the embodiment of the Big Bang,
and thus the power behind all Marvelverse's existence.

No offense taken, you're a true debater, I respect that always.

To be fair MM thats not exactly true.


Here is a previous post of mine:


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Reed and the Entitys desire to understand, their questions on their own existence were TRIGGERS for the creation event:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8930/fantasticfour53201mj2.jpg


It was no feat of power. He was a trigger. Not a creator. That point is stated explicitly. There is no room for interpretation there.

If i light up a stick of dynamite i am the trigger for the resultant explosion, i am not the generator of the explosive power.

When Reed and the Entity travelled back to the pre 616 void and asked what is the meaning of life when they questioned existence they triggered the Big Bang.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/3677/fantasticfour53208ot0.jpg


However it happened in the exact same way as when Eternity did it (prior to their time travelling and interference) because as revealed they are Eternity. They like everyone else are extensions of him. As stated as much a part of him as the stars. Therefore as stated the reason life was created in Marvel was because Eternity strived to understand his own existence (presumably whilst in the cosmic egg) and THAT proved to be the catalyst for the creation event.

The Alien Entity and Reed were merely substitutes for Eternity because they like EVERYONE ELSE are Eternity. The Alien Entity is no great universal creator. Neither is Reed Richards.

And isnt a bit odd that you rank the Alien Entity so high for temporarily being one with the Big Bang and yet you've placed the Phoenix who is the sentient energies of the Big Bang below Galactus level

As you wish.

Nth Man
Vishanti
Korvac
Hunger
Godlike Ones
Marvel Zombies
Beyonders
Time Keepers
Akhentaten

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And isnt a bit odd that you rank the Alien Entity so high for temporarily being one with the Big Bang and yet you've placed the Phoenix who is the sentient energies of the Big Bang below Galactus level

As you wish.

Originally posted by kevdude


Thanks mate. You've always been rational and very reasonable when it comes to debates.

Galactus is no top tier cosmic.

What can 616 Galactus do at full power?

An alternate reality Galactus after the intervention of the Dreaming Celestial devoured his reality. That has nothing to do with 616 Galactus.

Theres a lot of talk about him being the balance between Eternity and Death. Thats fine, but thats just his role, that doesnt necessarily speak for his power. Role is never a certain indication.

The biggest feat 616 Galactus has achieved as far as i know is destroying 3 Galaxies in an outburst of power. This occurred in Annihilation. As far as im concerned Galactus belongs just above the likes of In Betweener and Stranger but below the most powerful of the Celestials, who themselves are generally below the likes of the Abstracts and Phoenix.

But each to their own i guess.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The biggest feat 616 Galactus has achieved as far as i know is destroying 3 Galaxies in an outburst of power. This occurred in Annihilation. As far as im concerned Galactus belongs just above the likes of In Betweener and Stranger but below the most powerful of the Celestials, who themselves are generally below the likes of the Abstracts and Phoenix.

But each to their own i guess.

You're giving Galactus too much credit lol. It was 3 solar systems....they did say it wasn't slowing down, though. And he was weakened.


Hell, Vulcan with the Phoenix destroyed 7 galaxies.

Originally posted by Mr Master Phoenx Force (without it, the Stars would die)

Anyone remember Sise-Neg

I do

Originally posted by Enyalus
You're giving Galactus too much credit lol. It was 3 solar systems....they did say it wasn't slowing down, though. And he was weakened.


Hell, Vulcan with the Phoenix destroyed 7 galaxies.

Thanks for the correction. Im giving him way too much credit!

Originally posted by guy222
Anyone remember Sise-Neg

I do

That's because you're a Celestial fanatic.

Originally posted by guy222
Anyone remember Sise-Neg

I do

Yep, his name backwards is genesis.

He travelled back in time absorbing all of the magical energy from his native time in the future right to the beginning of time before the Big Bang. He then released this energy as the Big Bang that created reality.

His story was yet another origin tale for Marvel. There are so many that i dont think we can give one person credit for the role. Many beings have the power to do this and have done it so we should just stop arguing about who is ultimately responsible for it.

What i would say though is the power wasnt inherently his. So i wouldnt place him as top tier. He just has an unlimited capacity for energy absorption, but in his natural state he was just a powerful sorcerer just beyond Dr Strange.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What i would say though is the power wasnt inherently his. So i wouldnt place him as top tier. He just has an unlimited capacity for energy absorption, but in his natural state he was just a powerful sorcerer just beyond Dr Strange.

Well yeah, but at his peak...all the magic in existence plus the power of the Big Bang.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That's because you're a Celestial fanatic.

yes

I'll post his scans again. Damm imagethrust went under

Originally posted by Enyalus
Well yeah, but at his peak...all the magic in existence plus the power of the Big Bang.

But the power wasnt his. Its the equivalent of using Thanos with the IG as the standard level for Thanos. Therefore in every ranking debate where Thanos is referenced hes put at top tier. Thats not right.

Also it wasnt all the magic in existence, plus the Big Bang. All of that magical energy WAS the Big Bang. In Marvel all magical energy within reality derives from the stars. There are some scans i posted in the Phoenix Respect thread which state this.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Also it wasnt all the magic in existence, plus the Big Bang. All of that magical energy WAS the Big Bang. In Marvel all magical energy within reality derives from the stars. There are some scans i posted in the Phoenix Respect thread which state this.

Err...So Phoenix and Eternity, for instance, have magic?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Err...So Phoenix and Eternity, for instance, have magic? Magic is subjective really

Originally posted by Enyalus
Err...So Phoenix and Eternity, for instance, have magic?

Phoenix is the life force of reality, the sentient energies of the Big Bang. Eternity is the physical embodiment of reality.

All energy from the universe derives from the stars:

"The ultimate source of all energy, electric, atomic even MYSTIC"

Dr Strange Mystic Arts 25

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8719/drstrangemaster2505.th.jpg

#26

"The ultimate source of all energy, electrial atomical and magical"

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7267/drstrangemaster2604.th.jpg

With the power of the stars, the Creators warped reality.

The stars of the universe are powered by the Phoenix Force:

"The stars.....the source from which all other life springs"

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9480/fantasticfourannual2348.th.jpg

"The well from which they draw their sustenance is subject to turbulence....periodically it ignites in the form of......Dark Phoenix"

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3356/fantasticfourannual2349.th.jpg


The stars are powered by the Phoenix Force.

The Phoenix that is "The sum and substance of life"

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9972/classicxmen00826.th.jpg



"Mother of the stars"

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/950/classicxmen00828.th.jpg

The difference between Phoenix and Eternity is that she is the creation power from which the universe derived. He is the embodiment of the universe.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix is the life force of reality, the sentient energies of the Big Bang. Eternity is the physical embodiment of reality.

All energy from the universe derives from the stars:

"The ultimate source of all energy, electric, atomic even MYSTIC"

Dr Strange Mystic Arts 25

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8719/drstrangemaster2505.th.jpg

#26

"The ultimate source of all energy, electrial atomical and magical"

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7267/drstrangemaster2604.th.jpg

With the power of the stars, the Creators warped reality.

The stars of the universe are powered by the Phoenix Force:

"The stars.....the source from which all other life springs"

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9480/fantasticfourannual2348.th.jpg

"The well from which they draw their sustenance is subject to turbulence....periodically it ignites in the form of......Dark Phoenix"

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3356/fantasticfourannual2349.th.jpg


The stars are powered by the Phoenix Force.

The Phoenix that is "The sum and substance of life"

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9972/classicxmen00826.th.jpg



"Mother of the stars"

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/950/classicxmen00828.th.jpg

The difference between Phoenix and Eternity is that she is the creation power from which the universe derived. He is the embodiment of the universe.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_PF1.jpg

Figured I'd add to your nice scan collection in this thread with that. Little solidification of PF from Uatu.

Originally posted by Enyalus
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_PF1.jpg

Figured I'd add to your nice scan collection in this thread with that. Little solidification of PF from Uatu.

And that scan is an example of what i was talking about before.

Here you have Uatu talking about how Phoenix ignites the Big Bang.

And yet you have accounts of Sise Neg, Genis and others doing it. We dont have to argue about who really is the ignition behind creation. Why cant it be all of them? Lets just leave it at that and debate about more interesting things. The difference is that with those other accounts they occurred through intervention. Is it natural for all the universes energies to be absorbed and then emitted by Sise Neg? Or is it natural for Genis to blow up Eternity to recreate the universe? No.

Uatu refers to the natural order of things.

Ultimate Nullifier is underrated. Nuff said.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ultimate Nullifier is underrated. Nuff said. by who?

Originally posted by kgkg
by who? Plenty. They know who they are.

Either way, who's reset the entire Multiverse on-panel or done anything like that? Based on pure feats and not speculative rhetoric, the Ultimate Nullifier is up there.

UN is well below the IG.

^ Not really. Quasar is well below IG. IG never reset a Multiverse.

An incomplete IG shitstomped the UN. A complete IG would make it a ho and trick it out all over town.

IG>UN by a comfortable margin.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
An incomplete IG shitstomped the UN. A complete IG would make it a ho and trick it out all over town.

IG>UN by a comfortable margin.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
An incomplete IG shitstomped the UN. A complete IG would make it a ho and trick it out all over town.

IG>UN by a comfortable margin. Maybe Quasar just sucked at using the UN.

Seeing as UN reset the entire Marvel multiverse and beat a Multiversal level being, Abraxas.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
An incomplete IG shitstomped the UN. A complete IG would make it a ho and trick it out all over town.

IG>UN by a comfortable margin. An incomplete IG shitstomped Quasar. A complete IG has never done anything but take over a single universe and duplicate a parallel Earth and Moon, etc.

Remind me when an IG has actually done anything close to resetting an entire Multiverse.

Does it really matter? If an incomplete IG > the UN, a complete IG >>> UN. Multiversal feat or not.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

To be fair MM thats not exactly true.
Why? Cause your mis-interpretation says so?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Here is a previous post of mine:
You must be under the impression that posting over-sized scans
will some how convince those who actually read the entire arc,
and know the facts.

I'm going to turn your repost inside out as soon as I go home,
I'm at work now so I don't have access to my comics for scans.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

And isnt a bit odd that you rank the Alien Entity so high for temporarily being one with the Big Bang and yet you've placed the Phoenix who is the sentient energies of the Big Bang below Galactus level
Phoenix ... "the sentient energies of the Big Bang" ... hysterical

Dude, what you smokin?

Light that, smoke that, pass that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

His story was yet another origin tale for Marvel. There are so many that i dont think we can give one person credit for the role. Many beings have the power to do this and have done it so we should just stop arguing about who is ultimately responsible for it.
"So many?" ...

The Marvel Universe has only been re-created 4 times from nothingness,
after its initial inception.

The first origin is that of the Infinity Being creating the Marvelverse.

Then came the 4 re-creations:

Sise-Neg in 1972'
Genis/Entropy in 2002
Thanos/THOTI in 2003
Alien Entity in 2006

The difference between the AE and the rest,
is that the AE merged with the Fires of Creation
thus becoming the true embodiment of the Big Bang,
that spans creation past/present and future.

The AE also created the "Spark" that ignites said Fires of Creation,
from withIN his own body.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Phoenix is the life force of reality, the sentient energies of the Big Bang.

Eternity is the physical embodiment of reality.

The difference between Phoenix and Eternity
is that she is the creation power from which the universe derived.

He is the embodiment of the universe.
Good lord, I knew it wouldn't take long before the same ol' same ol' began.

This shit is hilarious.

Phoenix has never destroyed, remade or even affected 616 entirely,
(yea, yea, she prevented a possible future by mind raping Scott) whoopi do.

Heck Cable re-arranged his entire Future in the same basic format,
by change a single indivual's present in 616 therefore affacting his future,
same exact simplicity Jean did.

In fact, outside of a 'WHAT IF' ...
Phoenix has never destroyed a single reality period.

"Phoenix is the life force of reality, the sentient energies of the Big Bang."

"Phoenix is the creation power from which the universe derived" durlaugh

What's scary is that you're still making these fallacious claims
after they've been shot down again, and again, and again.

You get an A for vain persistance.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Does it really matter? If an incomplete IG > the UN, a complete IG >>> UN. Multiversal feat or not. Yes, it really matters. If an incomplete IG > Qausar with the UN, a complete IG has no correlation over the UN. The sheer scope of the UN's feat of resetting the Multiverse is virtually unmatched.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LT
Phoenix Force
IG LT > PF good to see that buddy

Originally posted by Mr Master
Why? Cause your mis-interpretation says so?

You must be under the impression that posting over-sized scans
will some how convince those who actually read the entire arc,
and know the facts.

I'm going to turn your repost inside out as soon as I go home,
I'm at work now so I don't have access to my comics for scans.

Phoenix ... "the sentient energies of the Big Bang" ... hysterical

Dude, what you smokin?

Light that, smoke that, pass that.

Why the aggression son?

Do you feel threatened?

Take your ass home and post as you wish. It will not make a difference. Never has done.

On panel, on multiple occassions the Phoenix Force is described by the likes of Reed Richards, Kubik, Galactus, Official Handbooks and the Force itself as the Big Bang, the energies of creation, life force of reality mother of the stars, sum and SUBSTANCE of all life and the well from which the stars draw sustenance.

Regardless of whether these facts fit into your agenda defined logic you are in no position to credibly tell anyone otherwise. Understand that.

Almost forgot. Officially the Phoenix Force is the manifestation of the universal life force:

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8195/ohotmux05streetsamuraid.th.jpg

Theres no denying it.

No one seems to rate the M'kraan crystal much. Thats crazy given how it destroyed the previous multiverse and recreated the current one.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No one seems to rate the M'kraan crystal much. Thats crazy given how it destroyed the previous multiverse and recreated the current one. They want scans

Originally posted by kgkg
They want scans

You know me. Im working on it

I'm interested in this one

Originally posted by iceman24567
I'm interested in this one

Cool The crystal or the Galactus part?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Cool The crystal or the Galactus part? All of it

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes, it really matters. If an incomplete IG > Qausar with the UN, a complete IG has no correlation over the UN. The sheer scope of the UN's feat of resetting the Multiverse is virtually unmatched.

It doesn't matter considering one artifact makes you God and the other doesn't.

One was shown to simultaneously effect the entire Marvel Multiverse, and the other wasn't.

Hmm...

GS and M-Double going at it again...

***grabs popcorn***

Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...

GS and M-Double going at it again...

***grabs popcorn***

Can I have a seat next to you two? Free popcorn and a free show ...

Sure its not like we will be able to join in the flood of scans will block out any posts made by anybody but them

Doesn't matter where the power originated, eventually it will all be Doom's.

Man, I've missed the GS/Mr M debates.

Originally posted by Badabing
Man, I've missed the GS/Mr M debates.

Look at you Mr Moderator. You're moving up in the world.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Look at you Mr Moderator. You're moving up in the world. Thanks.

Good to see you posting again.

Yeah, it is good to have GS back.

I wonder what ever happened to demigawd?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Yeah, it is good to have GS back.

I wonder what ever happened to demigawd?

Hey how you doing Ill you cool?

Yeah i miss Demi, Cosmic Cube and Whirlysplat.

Those were the days.

What happened to them?

Whirly was banned for being an elitist *******.

Remember?

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Whirly was banned for being an elitist *******.

Remember?

He was just misunderstood lol

DevilHulk too.

All the quality posters are disappearing one by one.

You never know when they'll ban Bran again.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
DevilHulk too.

All the quality posters are disappearing one by one.

You never know when they'll ban Bran again.

Oh come on, he wasnt like DevilHulk!

He just liked getting people riled up and it was funny to watch. People take this stuff too seriously.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh come on, he wasnt like DevilHulk!

He just liked getting people riled up and it was funny to watch. People take this stuff too seriously.

Yeah, DevilHulk was more of a hammer-on-anvil approach. "Hulk is god, you all suck"

But they don't ban people for baiting though. Whirly probably farted in the moderator's general direction and they got 'im with the beam-o-death

DevilHulk is over on HC now.

I hear thunder. this is about to get serious

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Why the aggression son?

Do you feel threatened?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Take your ass home and post as you wish.
It will not make a difference. Never has done.
You're right, stomping out your fallacies has become somewhat of a hobby.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm

On panel, the Phoenix Force is described by the likes of Reed Richards,

as the Big Bang
LOL!

Reed talking shit ... ^^^

*** Now ...

Reed not only seeing shit .. but experiencing shit too.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674171_5.jpg

Reed seeing kaka and experiencing kaka >>> Reed talking kaka

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

On panel, the Phoenix Force is described by Kubik,

as the well from which the stars draw sustenance
True that, I never denied it,
in fact, I added that reason to my list for placing the PF in my list,
but meh, only living creatures need the Stars to survive, big whoop,
many beings and entities that are self sufficient have no need of the Phoenix's purpose.

Heck, there are many beings that have their own Universes,
their own stars, with no need to sustain life withIN ther ow Universes,
meh, for example,
the Enigma Force is what sustains the Microverse Universe,
one example out of too many to list right now.

That aside ...

What's funny about the truth Kubik claimed is,
that withIN that very same story,
Kubik excluded the Phoenix Force as a Fundamental necessity to Reality,
Kubik did state that Mistress Death, Lord Chaos & Master Order
were the Fundamental Forces:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1518327_PF4.jpg

Also notice
how it's Chaos & Order that maintain the Metaphysical stability of the Universe.


***

You also decided to place Eternity below the Phoenix Force in your list,
yet your using Kubik's line about Phoenix being the "sustenance of the stars"

LOL!

Yet you completely ignore
how at the end of Kubik's introduction trip of the hierarchy of powers,
he clearly states that Eternity encompasses all the other powers ...

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1518334_PF5.jpg

... which must include the Phoenix Force who was presented first by Kubik.


So make up your mind,
you agree with Kubik when he says one thing that plays into your agenda (not really anyway)
but you'll ignore him when he says another that stomps that same agenda (completly btw)
although both things were said withIN the story/comic? hm


Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Galactus,
Official Handbooks

the Force itself

life force of reality
the energies of creation,
sum and SUBSTANCE of all life
Well, you best be talking about the "Force itself" hyperboling about itself,
because neither Galactus
nor any freaking Handbook ever said Phoenix is any of those things.

Next.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Regardless of whether these facts fit into your agenda defined logic
you are in no position to credibly tell anyone otherwise.
Understand that.
Blah, blah, blah, just watch and weep.

There's only 3 accounts of the Beginning of the Universe,
according to your Marvel.com link,
and 2 of it's End, according to your Marvel.com link.

All of them took place On Panel, so they're true,
meaning they were visually/artistically depicted as happening.

No mention of your Phoenix/Excalibur scenario,
in fact,
No mention of Phoenix ... at all.


NOW This ... this is explained in detail:

*** http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe *** (your own link)


"The Beginnings of the Universe" (including the Big Bang "Spark" and all that jazz)


http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674168_2.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674169_3.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674170_4.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674171_5.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/683705_AE.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/683703_AE1.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/683704_AE2.jpg


Again ... this is all supported in your Marvel.com link.

The Alien Entity stood in the void before the Big Bang (on panel)
the Alien Entity created the "Spark" that ignites creation with a thought (on panel)
The Alien Entity personally sparked the Big Bang with his own hands (on panel)
The Alien Entity indeed literally harnessed the energies of creation (on panel)
The Alien Entity (using Reed's mind as a guide) created the Marvel Universe and all its history. (on panel)
The Alien Entity merged with the fires/engines of creation, past, present & future (on panel)

100% Canon! ...

Also corroborated by the Editors in the FF questionnaires section, next few issues.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/682979_Reed.jpg

::beer and chips::

Mr.M is always looking for an excuse to lay down the law.

Who ever TOAA has sex with

TOAA
The Red Brother
The Heart of the Universe
The LT
Infinity Being
Eternity/Infinity

Dear....

Is this feud STILL not done with?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Classic GS in the house, mixing truth and fallacy.

"Universal life force of Life" ... NOT Reality!

Same 2008 bio.

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1518413_PF3.jpg

Fail.

That it's the same ol' same ol'?

Indeed.




Perhaps it can, and perhaps one day we'll see that hyperbole realized,
but until then, it's just hyperbole which has been dis-proven On Panel.

hysterical

That's an Alternate Reality that diverged from 616!

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1518459_PF8.jpg

So how the hell do you wanna place this as the Previous Universe of the Infinity Being?

LOL!

And the Mkraan Crystal ONLY destroyed that ONE Alternate Reality in the story btw.
(so On Panel it's officially a Universal power ... nothing more)

I could care less about any speculative opinions outside of On Panel evidence.

What you choose to acknowledge personally is of no relevance here. We debate according to canon. Officially current continuity is that the previous multiverse was destroyed and remade by the M'kraan crystal.

Bios of this are the most recent and current description of what is officially the origin of Marvel.

You can believe what you wish, however when youre debating on these forums please dont waste mine or anyone elses by spreading your shit like it means something.

Here is the word of the handbook writers.



Please bear in mind that the handbooks of Galactus, LT, the Dweller in the Darkness and the F4 Encyclopedia all reference the incident. Tough break kid

Anyone wishing to see for themselves, please follow the link:

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/ohotmufaq.htm

It's like 2007 all over again...

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Dear....

Is this feud STILL not done with?

Originally posted by illadelph12
It's like 2007 all over again...

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Dear....

Is this feud STILL not done with? uhuh

Does anyone beside themselves read their posts?

Originally posted by Mindset
Does anyone beside themselves read their posts?

No.

Originally posted by Mindset
Does anyone beside themselves read their posts?

When it gets that long i wouldnt expect anyone to lol.

I've made my point, i wont be making anymore long winded responses.

Originally posted by Mindset
Does anyone beside themselves read their posts?

I do.

Nerds. lol

Originally posted by Mindset
Nerds. lol

ZOMG. u just dont know what your talking about. sorry i have to educate you. epic fail. lulz.

Just to reiterate, the stars in Marvel as stated on panel are "concentrated cosmic life force" and the source of all energy in the universe. Stars not only provide energy but also matter derived from them forms other astronomical structures such as smaller stars, planets, asteroids etc. It is a misconception to think that Phoenix is only responsible for life forms.

Stars are the concentrated energy of the Big Bang, so if Phoenix is the energy source of the stars, what does that say for Phoenix?

Reed Richards conclusion is that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8905/fantasticfour52212.th.jpg

The Phoenix Force avatar is said to be a flame from the Big Bang:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4342/phoenixresurrectionreve.th.jpg

Again. What does that say about the Phoenix Force?

To say that other beings make their own universe and power their own stars is irrelevant to this debate. Does the fact that other beings make their own universes demean Eternity or the other abstracts? So why is the Phoenix being singled out? On top of that unless we're talking about a main universe in the multiversal structure such as 616 or the Ultimate universe, ones which share the same cosmic hierarchical structure, then its irrelevant because theyre pocket dimensions.

The Phoenix Force to my knowledge has never fully manifested anywhere on panel. Its essence and role are not restricted to reality, it also works outside of reality. A shard of the Phoenix Force is still called the Phoenix Force so it is another misconception to believe appearances of the firebird are the full Phoenix Force. The firebird is an avatar as stated on panel. It is an expression of the universal life force that is the Phoenix Force.

Posting scans saying the energy of creation is contained within Eternitys core does not affect my argument in the slightest. Eternity is the physical embodiment of creation so where else would the energies of creation be found but within creation? He was formed by those energies and they flow through him so he can tap into them. Now how does that at all affect my argument or the multitude of scans saying that Phoenix IS the energies of creation?

It doesn't

As for the Alien Entity, he has been hyped up to ridiculous proportions. And its all agenda driven. Any character that can possibly be interpreted more powerful than they actually are, Mr Master has done that in order to place Phoenix as far down the hierarchy as he possibly can, without looking too biased to the casual poster.

The Alien Entitys showing prior to this alleged feat was abysmal. He was easily wounded by bullets and was near exhaustion from fleeing from his people. He couldnt teleport any longer and required Reeds machinery to transport them both to the beginning of time. Whilst there the Alien questioned how life existed. As stated in the issue( see the scans ive previously posted in this thread) THE QUESTION TRIGGERED the creation event. Not only did this alleged feat conclusively not involve any energy generation from the Entity, but he was also only the trigger. He was no creator. That point is mentioned multiple times. The Entitys cosmic nature puts him in sync with these universal energies as many cosmics are, however he lacks knowledge and Reeds scientific mind fills the gap and together it appears as if the creation event is being steered by them. It then dawns on them how the universe came about according to this story arc. The universe itself is a life form trying to understand itself, therefore all life and all its struggles that take place within its borders were created by it in an effort to try and understand the meaning of its own existence.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/3677/fantasticfour53208ot0.th.jpg

The comic makes the point of saying that Reed and the Entity are Eternity, everything is as much as the stars are. Their questions on existence, their efforts to understand life mirrored Eternitys own and they as extensions of Eternity were able to signal the Big Bang as he originally did according to this story arc.

Reed and the Entity are no universal creators as some would have you believe. They were merely able to substitute for Eternity as in a way, they like everything within the universe are Eternity.

Now whats more plausible an explanation that or an interpretation that:

a) Ignores the Entitys exhausted state immediately before the alleged feat and the fact that Reed despite his great scientific mind, is not a cosmic

b) Ignores the fact that the comic states multiple times that the question was a trigger and instead insists that the Entity generated through sheer power the Big Bang spark

c) Ignores the statement that says that life exists because the universe is sentient and trying to understand itself

I'll let you decide.

^ Did you just make a post on Comics Philosophy?

Please bear in mind that the theories of the creation of the universe found in that F4 story arc have no support in any official Marvel source both before and after its publication. It is just one of many different interpretations. This one however contradicts all others thus far because how could Eternity signal his creation before he has been created?

Regardless there is no point in arguing over who is the creator of the Marvel universe because there are a number of characters attributed to that position.

This quote deals with that point nicely:



Lets leave it at that.

Phoenix actually being the energies of creation however thats a different matter. I've made my point on that within this thread.

Originally posted by Placidity
^ Did you just make a post on Comics Philosophy?

Lol. It wasnt my intention.

OT: I like the scan of LT sitting on the cosmic comode while the multiverse is being destroyed.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8349/56132412.th.jpg

Now back to the debate.

Originally posted by frommd
OT: I like the scan of LT sitting on the cosmic comode while the multiverse is being destroyed.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8349/56132412.th.jpg

Now back to the debate.

Lol that made me laugh. You sure you're from the States? You remind me of someone.

what was this thread about again,Israel or something?