Barriss Offee's Gauntlet!

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JediOrion
Okay, I'm a big Barriss Offee fan, so I want to see what everybody else thinks of her abilities. For those who don't know her, she's a very skilled Force healer, a Soresu adept, and a clever young Jedi.

Here's the line-up, in no particular order:


1.) LOTF Mara Jade
2.) Darth Vader
3.) Anakin Skywalker (when he was dark but not in the suit)
4.) Count Dooku
5.) Darth Bane
6.) Darth Maul
7.) Sith Blademaster Kas'im
8.) Cin Drallig
9.) Yoda (lol)
10.) Luminara Unduli, her own master

JediOrion
Sorry, I forgot to post my own opinions:


1.) Lose, unfortunately. Mara is a trained assassin with incredible skills, both the traditional Jedi set (saber dueling and Force powers), but also the more shadowy areas of combat and killing. Barriss wouldn't stand a chance.

2.) Lose. Not even a contest.

3.) Win, but barely. Barriss has worked with Anakin before and knows a good deal about his strengths and weaknesses. In addition, Anakin was a bit of a berserker right after his fall, and I think her own caution and strength would have brought him down eventually.

4.) Lose. Dooku, being one of the best duelists ever, and not too bad in the Force department either, would absolutely crush Barriss.

5.) Actually, I don't know much about Darth Bane's powers myself. I'll leave that to someone else to decide.

6.) Lose, without a doubt. Maul was a brute, and he was incredibly fast and powerful with that double-blade of his.

7.) Win, actually. Kas'im was very skilled in lightsaber combat, but he was arrogant. She would have had a tough time of it, but she would have pwned him in the end.

8.) Win. Unlike Kas'im, the Jedi weapons master wasn't (too) proud and arrogant, and Barriss would have had a much harder time of it. However, she demonstrated that she had an incredible degree of Force control in TAS, which the old man didn't.

9.) Lose. Do I even have to give my reasons?

10.) Win. Although some might disagree, I say that Luminara got to be too set in her ways. Barriss eventually outshone her old master, although their partnership was very much an Anakin-ObiWan kind of thing. Their styles were very similar, but I think Barriss would have destroyed her in both arenas.


Okay ... now what does everybody else think?

Red Nemesis
Kas'im would annihilate her. The match would be a brief, yet excruciating monument to the amount of pain a lightsaber can cause to the humanoid body type. Srsly.

Bane would kill her too.


Guys, could Cin take her?

Eminence
Taking into account the fact that she not only loses, but gets positively stomped by just about every one of her opponents, I'd have to say that this gauntlet fails.

Lord Lucien
She's not getting through any of them.

JediOrion
Barriss can take young Anakin without much trouble. Dueling her old master is harder, but she can defeat her too. As for Barriss vs. Cin, I still think she can whoop his butt with Force powers.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by JediOrion
Barriss can take young Anakin without much trouble. Dueling her old master is harder, but she can defeat her too. As for Barriss vs. Cin, I still think she can whoop his butt with Force powers. And just why do you think Vader is going to lose to Barriss Offee when he casually took on Cin Drallig and Bene at the same time? And don't say it's because of her Soresu-adept status---Kenobi was the Soresu prodigy.

JediOrion
And who was it that walked away physically unscathed from the battle on Mustafar? Barriss fought alongside Obi-Wan on Ansion, and proved her skill in the art of Soresu even as a padawan. At the least, Anakin would find her quite a challenge. At most, he would find himself unexpectedly defeated.

Barriss is tougher than people give her credit for!

Eminence
Nope.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by JediOrion
And who was it that walked away physically unscathed from the battle on Mustafar? Barriss fought alongside Obi-Wan on Ansion, and proved her skill in the art of Soresu even as a padawan. At the least, Anakin would find her quite a challenge. At most, he would find himself unexpectedly defeated.

Barriss is tougher than people give her credit for! Obi-Wan won the Mustafar duel due to more than pure skill or power. Anakin was emotionally unstable, mentally unbalanced and typically arrogant of the Dark Side (i.e. "You underestimate my--" *jump/slash*). Anakin was more powerful than him and as the RoTS novelization says, Anakin becomes more so the longer the battle continues. If it had not been for his anxiety at the Padme/Kenobi betrayal, Anakin wouldn't have been so... stupid is a good word. Facing someone like Offee, a Soresu adept, not the prodigy like Kenobi, but adept (your word)---who is by canonical fact less powerful than Anakin (the same Dark Anakin who took on the Battlemaster and his apprentice)...

Easy math.

mattatom
Where does it say Kas'im is arrogant?
All I can see is pride.
Apart from that it'd be easier for Barriss to take a long walk of a short pier.

Oh and Lucien just too add to your analysis? (For lack of a better word)
Obi Wan is also a very intelligent combatant so more points for him.

And adding to this from a different thread and Iquote you.

"When there are sabers involved, Kas'im will always kick butt. No argument."

So this Barriss adept of Soresu, I believe due to that quote, I'm done here.

JediOrion
Okay, okay, I'll give you guys that. Kas'im would destroy Barriss in a duel. I'm still sticking with her win over Anakin.

Red Nemesis
Kenobi had every advantage: an intimate knowledge of Anakin's fighting style, superior tactical awareness and a mind uncluttered by the renunciation of his entire life's ideals. He was still losing. Anakin was simply better than he was. Barriss wouldn't stand a chance.

Darth Martin
Originally posted by JediOrion
Okay, I'm a big Barriss Offee fan, so I want to see what everybody else thinks of her abilities. For those who don't know her, she's a very skilled Force healer, a Soresu adept, and a clever young Jedi.

Here's the line-up, in no particular order:


1.) LOTF Mara Jade
2.) Darth Vader
3.) Anakin Skywalker (when he was dark but not in the suit)
4.) Count Dooku
5.) Darth Bane
6.) Darth Maul
7.) Sith Blademaster Kas'im
8.) Cin Drallig
9.) Yoda (lol)
10.) Luminara Unduli, her own master Aside from Mara Jade and Kas'Im who I know nothing about, assuming your ordering your list from least to greatest difficulty, let me revise it for you. Just my opinion.

1. Luminara Unduli
2. Cin Drallig
3. Darth Bane
4. Darth Maul
5. Anakin Skywalker
6. Count Dooku
7. Darth Vader
8. Yoda

She stops at 1.

Red Nemesis
Bane > Maul

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by JediOrion
Okay, okay, I'll give you guys that. Kas'im would destroy Barriss in a duel. I'm still sticking with her win over Anakin. If you want to be taken seriously here, re-evaluate.

Darth Exodus
EDIT.

mattatom
Originally posted by Darth Martin
Aside from Mara Jade and Kas'Im who I know nothing about, assuming your ordering your list from least to greatest difficulty, let me revise it for you. Just my opinion.

1. Luminara Unduli
2. Cin Drallig
3. Darth Bane
4. Darth Maul
5. Anakin Skywalker
6. Count Dooku
7. Darth Vader
8. Yoda

She stops at 1.

When you wrote Maul is a more difficult opponent than Bane you were sort of drunk and/or high right?

Kas'im is potentially one of the most accomplished Weaponmaster of all time.

Excalibur2776
She would lose to every single one of them

Excalibur2776
Originally posted by JediOrion
Okay, okay, I'll give you guys that. Kas'im would destroy Barriss in a duel. I'm still sticking with her win over Anakin.

No, Anakin would win as seen in the Clone Wars

Ascendancy
This is a horrible gauntlet. She loses at 1.

Excalibur2776
Originally posted by Ascendancy
This is a horrible gauntlet. She loses at 1.
thumb up

Q99
Originally posted by JediOrion
Okay, okay, I'll give you guys that. Kas'im would destroy Barriss in a duel. I'm still sticking with her win over Anakin.

Anakin is one of the best duelists in the order. Barriss is still a knight, weaker than her own master, and Anakin would beat Luminara.


Cin Drallig is the weakest on the list, btw, and he'd still probably win.

Excalibur2776
Originally posted by Q99
Anakin is one of the best duelists in the order. Barriss is still a knight, weaker than her own master, and Anakin would beat Luminara.


Cin Drallig is the weakest on the list, btw, and he'd still probably win.
Also, Anakin beat Barriss in TCW S5 Season Finale

Mizukage Yoda
Holy shit the Season 5 finale gave me goose bumps.

Excalibur2776
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Holy shit the Season 5 finale gave me goose bumps.
IKR!!! big grin, but it was really sad

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
IKR!!! big grin, but it was really sad

Given how well handled this was, I can definitely see them killing off Asoka in the future. It'll be sad and epic.

Col. Valerian
IMO, Barriss gave too much of a fight to Anakin. He should've been able to defeat her more easily. Outside of that, great finale.

Ascendancy
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
IMO, Barriss gave too much of a fight to Anakin. He should've been able to defeat her more easily. Outside of that, great finale.
Seemed like he was holding back because he didn't want to risk killing her, just wanted to capture her. Didn't seem to be fighting at full speed.

Excalibur2776
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Given how well handled this was, I can definitely see them killing off Asoka in the future. It'll be sad and epic.
Definetley, and when they do it will either be very dark/sad and/or heroic/brave.
Either way it'll be epic though, and they would probably kill her off at the series finalle because they would lose to many fans if they do it before.

Excalibur2776
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
IMO, Barriss gave too much of a fight to Anakin. He should've been able to defeat her more easily. Outside of that, great finale.
That's what I thought, even before that though I thought that Barriss wouldn't of beat Ahsoka as easily as she did, which is why I though it wasn't her.

Ascendancy
Originally posted by Excalibur2776
That's what I thought, even before that though I thought that Barriss wouldn't of beat Ahsoka as easily as she did, which is why I though it wasn't her.

Ahsoka simply thinking it was Ventress on top of Barriss likely tapping the darkside probably would have been enough to give her the edge.

DARTH POWER
Is no one thinking that maybe Dark Side Barriss is just a lot more powerful than Knight Barriss?

She did well against Skywalker making him work for the win. End of.

But there's no one on this thread she can take.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
IMO, Barriss gave too much of a fight to Anakin. He should've been able to defeat her more easily. Outside of that, great finale.

Amen. She's easily on par with Maul, Obi-wan, and Sidious.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Seemed like he was holding back because he didn't want to risk killing her, just wanted to capture her. Didn't seem to be fighting at full speed.


This is all just speculation. He looked like he was fighting at full speed to me, therefore, he was. And he was actually trying his hardest to kill her because there were times when he struck at her with blows that could have killed her had she not blocked or evaded them.

She's definitely better than Dooku, considering she gave Anakin a far, far greater challenge than he did.

Excalibur2776
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This is all just speculation. He looked like he was fighting at full speed to me, therefore, he was. And he was actually trying his hardest to kill her because there were times when he struck at her with blows that could have killed her had she not blocked or evaded them.

She's definitely better than Dooku, considering she gave Anakin a far, far greater challenge than he did.
Well, I'm hoping we see more of her, maybe she escapes her death sentence, I think her character could be used a lot more, especially because she is an AMAZING fighter.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Amen. She's easily on par with Maul, Obi-wan, and Sidious.

Especially Sidious.

Ascendancy
Honestly, I was a little worried when the fight first began though. Her Force Push almost crushed Anakin's spine.

NTJack0
What the..She can't beat any of these people, An Anakin trying to take her alive beat her down.

-Pr-
Sarcasm aside, she did well considering who she was fighting. She doesn't beat any on this gauntlet though.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


She's definitely better than Dooku, considering she gave Anakin a far, far greater challenge than he did.

No she didn't. I don't remember Dooku ever getting Force Slammed by Skywalker. In fact Skywalker never even defeat Dooku until ROTS. And that fight started with Kenobi's aid.

But she did put up a decent fight. End of story.

And I really hope you don't bring this retarded point up every time someone gives Obi-Wan or Anakin a fight. They do still tend to show Jedi Restraint, something specifically noted by Dooku about Skywalker in the ROTS novel. And something Darksiders and Sith lack.

And Let's not forget whose argument it was in the first place that Fisto=/> Kenobi simply because he was beating Grievous one time.

You lot started that whole line of thinking but then start crying when the same logic is used against your favorite character.

-Pr-
I think he was being sarcastic.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by -Pr-
I think he was being sarcastic.

I know he was. But his sarcasm is aimed at mocking me and Arhael.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This is all just speculation. He looked like he was fighting at full speed to me, therefore, he was. And he was actually trying his hardest to kill her because there were times when he struck at her with blows that could have killed her had she not blocked or evaded them.

She's definitely better than Dooku, considering she gave Anakin a far, far greater challenge than he did.

Pretty much. Dooku may be her better with the Force, but she's clearly his equal or better in Pure Saberz.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by DARTH POWER


And Let's not forget whose argument it was in the first place that Fisto=/> Kenobi simply because he was beating Grievous one time.

You lot started that whole line of thinking but then start crying when the same logic is used against your favorite character.

Happy Dance

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pretty much. Dooku may be her better with the Force, but she's clearly his equal or better in Pure Saberz.


Agreed. Dooku has FL, she doesn't. And FL is what saved Dooku's ass during him and Anakin's last fight in TCW.

DARTH POWER
Dooku's Saber Performance against Skywalker was well beyond Bariss's. In "Crisis on Naboo" Anakin just got the edge in Sabers with a Kick which tripped Dooku over some stairs.

But later Dooku puts a more powerful Anakin on his ass via his own Uber Kick in ROTS. And that was while fighting off Kenobi making it an even more Uber Performance.

So even your your sarcastic analysis is failing.

Try harder boyz.

SIDIOUS 66
Not really. A fully replenished Dooku was owned by Anakin in seconds.

As for their clash on "Crisis on Naboo", Dooku was using his full force powers on Anakin, and still got dropped. Barriss used one force push on Anakin, while the rest was her pure saber skills that gave Anakin a struggle.

Arhael
Holding back is not the issue.
Anakin like other characters doesn't need to hold back, if he doesn't want to kill. He just needs to trust the Force. No matter how hard and lethally he attacks her, if she failed to block, he would anticipate it and cause a shin wound instead of killing blow. Also, he doesn't need to hold back in trying to disarm her. If Anakin was trully superior to her in sabers, he would do to her what Luke did to Valin Horn:
"That's enough." Luke advanced, activating his own lightsaber. Valin raised his in a preliminary block. Luke struck, twitching his blade out of the most obvious line of attack, and the blade sheared the hilt of Valin's weapon in two, not harming him.

Valin's blade switched off as the weapon's lower half dropped into the darkened urban chasm below. Valin took a step back, the last step he could afford before dropping off the front of the speeder, but Luke's advance was near instantaneous. The Grand Master slammed the butt of his own weapon into Valin's temple".

There is nothing wrong with her being exceptionally strong combatant simply because she has no feats. Windu had no feats either before he took down Sidious.

Also, the reason why Anakin put up better fight against Dooku than her is quite simple. Anakin in both cases was far more angry at Dooku, which made him much stronger than usual.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku's Saber Performance against Skywalker was well beyond Bariss's. In "Crisis on Naboo" Anakin just got the edge in Sabers with a Kick which tripped Dooku over some stairs.

But later Dooku puts a more powerful Anakin on his ass via his own Uber Kick in ROTS. And that was while fighting off Kenobi making it an even more Uber Performance.

So even your your sarcastic analysis is failing.

Try harder boyz.

Anakin put Dooku on his ass in RotS. If you're suggesting Anakin defeated him by mere circumstance, you'd be completely wrong. Anakin is clearly the superior fighter by RotS.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Anakin put Dooku on his ass in RotS. If you're suggesting Anakin defeated him by mere circumstance, you'd be completely wrong. Anakin is clearly the superior fighter by RotS.

No he's not.
1. Djem So is the perfect style to defeat Makashi. A master of Djem So will defeat a master of Makashi in pure bladework everytime.
2. Anakin has never bypassed Dooku's force defenses, Dooku on the other hand has time and time again proved to be Dooku's superior.

Dooku>Anakin in all out.

The_Tempest
If the script, official website, and supplementary material are to be believed, Anakin's defeat of Dooku was the product of superior skill. But the execution of that certainly leaves something to be desired.



Yeah, that's not the issue at all.

Arhael
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
1. Djem So is the perfect style to defeat Makashi. A master of Djem So will defeat a master of Makashi in pure bladework everytime.

You are wrong. The winner depends on skill and capabilities. Nowhere Djem So is stated to be superior to Makashi.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No he's not.
1. Djem So is the perfect style to defeat Makashi. A master of Djem So will defeat a master of Makashi in pure bladework everytime.

Not true. Djem So might be suited to defeat Makashi, but the outcome of a duel between a Makashi user and a Djem So user does not solely depend on each individuals' lightsaber form. It depends on which combatant is the better swordsman. Period. If you're a Makashi user but you are the more skilled fighter in terms of bladework, then you will win against a Djem So user. You might struggle against a form that is designed to counter your own, but in the end you're going to win simply because you are superior.

It is wrong to assume that one style will always defeat the other without taking into account the individual prowess and skill of each combatant, and it is certainly false and unfair to credit Skywalker's definite victory over Dooku only to his use of Djem So. He defeated him because he had become the superior fighter, not because he utilized Djem So.

Unless I'm just misunderstanding your argument.



You just said that 'a master of Djem So will defeat a master of Makashi in pure bladework everytime'. Yet you say Anakin has never bypassed Dooku's defenses...

And these parts of the novelization say the opposite:



1. "The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing."


2. "Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat."


3. "And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread."



So yes, yes he is the superior fighter. Anakin was clearly kicking the s*** out of Dooku.

Vensai
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No he's not.
1. Djem So is the perfect style to defeat Makashi. A master of Djem So will defeat a master of Makashi in pure bladework everytime.
2. Anakin has never bypassed Dooku's force defenses, Dooku on the other hand has time and time again proved to be Anakin's superior.

Dooku>Anakin in all out.

Fixed.
Anyway, I concur, though I would like to point out that Dooku was taking advantage of Djem So's lack of mobility in the novelization.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Anakin put Dooku on his ass in RotS. If you're suggesting Anakin defeated him by mere circumstance, you'd be completely wrong. Anakin is clearly the superior fighter by RotS.

Wait, what? No, I never said that. I said Dooku's Saber performance against ROTS Anakin was far greater than Barriss's Saber performance against CW Anakin.

Or have you forgotten that Dooku put Anakin on his ass first while simultaneously dealing with Kenobi?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not really. A fully replenished Dooku was owned by Anakin in seconds.

So we just ignoring the fight before Dooku replenished himself and Anakin got fully enraged?

We ignoring that Dooku did humiliate Kenobi and Skywalker together at one point?

Also you need to stop judging fights based on how long they last. It's more important that Dooku came close to defeating Anakin before he lost.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As for their clash on "Crisis on Naboo", Dooku was using his full force powers on Anakin, and still got dropped. Barriss used one force push on Anakin, while the rest was her pure saber skills that gave Anakin a struggle.

Anakin shruuged off Dooku's Force attacks. I don't see how it made much difference to the Saber fight.

And yes Barriss also used the Force. So both fights were All-Out's.

Col. Valerian
Yes, just before he regained composure and completely overwhelmed Dooku.

But I'm not suggesting Barriss is more powerful than Dooku. She's not.

DARTH POWER
Also Dooku didn't lose because Makashi is weak to Djem So. That's not even true and was only brought up as an issue when Dooku was fending off both Skywalker and Kenobi.

It wasn't an issue the whole fight. Skywalker's Power & Saber Prowess was the issue.

Col. Valerian
Didn't you read? I actually said that lightsaber forms had nothing to do with Anakin's victory over the Count. So yeah.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Didn't you read? I actually said that lightsaber forms had nothing to do with Anakin's victory over the Count. So yeah.

Wasn't directed at you. Just a general statement as that's been coming up repeatedly recently including on this thread.

Mizukage Yoda
Originally posted by Col. Valerian ]Not true. Djem So might be suited to defeat Makashi, but the outcome of a duel between a Makashi user and a Djem So user does not solely depend on each individuals' lightsaber form. It depends on which combatant is the better swordsman. Period. If you're a Makashi user but you are the more skilled fighter in terms of bladework, then you will win against a Djem So user. You might struggle against a form that is designed to counter your own, but in the end you're going to win simply because you are superior.
Yes I am not saying that. What I am saying is that a Makashi master will fall to a Djem So master of equal skill almost every time.



You aren't listening. I am saying that in order to defeat someone like Dooku with Djem So you have to be at least on his level. I am not saying any old swordfighter with Djem So can defeat a Makashi master. I am saying that a master of Djem So will defeat a master of Makashi everytime.





Force defenses Force defenses. Those are his physical defenses. Anakin has not once ever successfully force pushed Dooku. Dooku on the other hand has shown the ability to rag doll Skywalker, and humiliate him with the force multiple times.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes I am not saying that. What I am saying is that a Makashi master will fall to a Djem So master of equal skill almost every time.



You aren't listening. I am saying that in order to defeat someone like Dooku with Djem So you have to be at least on his level. I am not saying any old swordfighter with Djem So can defeat a Makashi master. I am saying that a master of Djem So will defeat a master of Makashi everytime.





Force defenses Force defenses. Those are his physical defenses. Anakin has not once ever successfully force pushed Dooku. Dooku on the other hand has shown the ability to rag doll Skywalker, and humiliate him with the force multiple times.

I still disagree with those claims, but if that's your belief, fair enough.

And yes, I agree that Dooku is RotS Anakin's superior in terms of Force mastery. In terms of skill with a lightsaber, it's a different story even before RotS.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So we just ignoring the fight before Dooku replenished himself and Anakin got fully enraged?



Yes, because all that matters is that Dooku was fully replenished and Anakin still owned him, whereas he struggled against Barriss.

You need to accept the fight that was given; Barriss did way better against Anakin than Dooku did. There was no holding back with Barriss, she's just better in pure sabers than Dooku.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We ignoring that Dooku did humiliate Kenobi and Skywalker together at one point?


Oh, so because he kicked Anakin, that means he humiliated him? If only you would use this same logic with Kenobi's duels against Grievous. roll eyes (sarcastic)


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also you need to stop judging fights based on how long they last. It's more important that Dooku came close to defeating Anakin before he lost.


When did he almost defeat Anakin? If a kick = almost defeating someone, then why don't you give Ventress and Grievous any credit, considering that they consistently ragdoll or KO Obi Wan with kicks and such?


Also, you're the one who seems to judge fights based on how long they are. You suggested that Sidious struggled against Maul and Savage just because he didn't blitz them in seconds. The only thing I suggested is: that clashing blades with someone for a little over 20 seconds does not suggest parity, especially if one of them is not trying to kill the other.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin shruuged off Dooku's Force attacks. I don't see how it made much difference to the Saber fight.


Because most of those force attacks were attempts to distract Anakin and to keep Anakin away from him (throwing silverware, and using chairs to block Anakins saber attacks), or to get Anakin off of him (lightning attack). Barriss didn't need to use the force as offensively, because her saber skills were sufficient.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yes Barriss also used the Force. So both fights were All-Out's.


She used one force push on Anakin. I would hardly compare that to Dooku using TK and lightning throughout majority of the duel. Most of Anakin's struggle was from Barriss' saber skills, which should definitely put her on par with Dooku in sabers, or perhaps above him.

It's so easy debating with you, DP. All I have to do is use your own horrible logic against you, and watch you trip over your double standards. lol

@Arhael





Speculation much. Anakin was angry at both of them, and you're in no position to determine who he was angrier at. Facts are facts, and Barriss put up a better saber fight than Dooku. That's how it was shown, and that's how it is. You can speculate all you want, but you have no proof.

As for your illogical argument that someone not trying to kill doesn't mean that they are holding back, I already addressed in the Maul brothers vs. Bane thread on page 17. To quote myself:

"when one isn't trying to kill, they hold back. You said you practiced sword fighting, and that it's easier to aim for the hands and feet. Well IDK, I don't know about sword fighting, but I do know when you aim at only particular area's, your chances of landing a blow that will end the fight, will be a lot less, no matter how easier the specific target is compared to the rest. You're still limiting yourself."

^ You can argue against it all you want, but when you're not trying to kill someone, you limit your areas of target, and you would also likely limit your aggression and speed as to not accidently kill them. This is just common sense.

The_Tempest
Well said. Barriss visually performed on par with the elites.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, because all that matters is that Dooku was fully replenished and Anakin still owned him, whereas he struggled against Barriss.

What? Firstly that was a more powerful Anakin.

Secondly Dooku almost defeated him before he lost.

Anakin was clearly superior to Barriss in every way throughout the fight.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You need to accept the fight that was given; Barriss did way better against Anakin than Dooku did. There was no holding back with Barriss, she's just better in pure sabers than Dooku.

Oh I'm perfectly happy accepting the fight that was given. I just don't see where Barriss almost defeated Skywalker the way Dooku did.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh, so because he kicked Anakin, that means he humiliated him? If only you would use this same logic with Kenobi's duels against Grievous. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Lol Anakin was slammed against the wall half way across the room and seemed knocked half senselss, on his ass while Dooku was taking his time disposing of Obi-Wan for like 10 seconds.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When did he almost defeat Anakin? If a kick = almost defeating someone, then why don't you give Ventress and Grievous any credit, considering that they consistently ragdoll or KO Obi Wan with kicks and such?

Ventress gets credit for that. Grievous's kicks have never been so deadly. It's hard to give him credit when he consistently shits his pants and runs from Kenobi.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, you're the one who seems to judge fights based on how long they are. You suggested that Sidious struggled against Maul and Savage just because he didn't blitz them in seconds. The only thing I suggested is: that clashing blades with someone for a little over 20 seconds does not suggest parity, especially if one of them is not trying to kill the other.

No I judge their Saber fight by how it went. Sidious resorted to force attacks to defeat the brothers. He never Saber stomped the 2 of them combined.

A rage enhanced Maul showed parity with Sidious in Sabers (for a second time in his life mind you) based on how the fight went. They were going back and forth, both landed 1 kick each. Both parrying each others blows with equal skill and speed.

But Sidious was still stronger which is why he overpowered him in the Saber lock.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Because most of those force attacks were attempts to distract Anakin and to keep Anakin away from him (throwing silverware, and using chairs to block Anakins saber attacks), or to get Anakin off of him (lightning attack). Barriss didn't need to use the force as offensively, because her saber skills were sufficient.

No he was fencing one handed and keeping his other hand free for force attacks. The attacks were meant to put Skywalker out of commission. But were not effective in doing that.

His FL+TK gave him the edge in the end.

But the Saber fight was pretty even steven until Anakin was able to kick Dooku over the steps.

I don't see how Barriss's performance compared to that. She posed a challenge. That's it.







Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's so easy debating with you, DP. All I have to do is use your own horrible logic against you, and watch you trip over your double standards. lol



LOL Except my own logic isn't relevant here at all.

Face it your annoyed about me and Arhael using YOUR OWN logic against you.

You claimed Fisto =/> Kenobi based on his performance against Grievous. You spent pages and pages claiming that fight was undeniable proof of this.

But then when it comes to comparing Kenobi's and Sidious's Saber performance against The Exact same Opponents using the Exact same weapons, then you resort to sarcasm about how stupid that logic is.

If you want to use the more reasonable way of judging combatants, i.e. High end and Consistent feats, Environment and circumstances of the fight, then so the same for Kenobi vs Fisto threads.

Make up your mind how you want to debate instead of changing your mind whenever it suits you. And resorting to mocking and sarcasm when your own logic is used against you.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? Firstly that was a more powerful Anakin.


Says who? And by how much? I need a quote please?


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Secondly Dooku almost defeated him before he lost.


Almost defeated him when? Just because he kicked him to the ground?




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I just don't see where Barriss almost defeated Skywalker the way Dooku did.


An angry Anakin battered Dooku's defense in no time. An angry Anakin struggled to do the same with Barriss. He needed his superior force powers against Barriss, whereas he just owned Dooku with his saber skills alone.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol Anakin was slammed against the wall half way across the room and seemed knocked half senselss, on his ass while Dooku was taking his time disposing of Obi-Wan for like 10 seconds.


I'll recheck the fight, but I think you're exaggerating a bit. I don't remember Dooku taking his time, and I don't remember it being 10 seconds. But that besides the point; Anakin still owned Dooku when he got serious and angry. All he had to do, was decide to win, and he did. That's not what happened with Barriss, now did it?



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ventress gets credit for that. Grievous's kicks have never been so deadly. It's hard to give him credit when he consistently shits his pants and runs from Kenobi.


lmao, Kenobi has just recently ran from Grievous during their last fight, which took place this season. Not to mention the other times Grievous had Kenobi on the defensive and on the retreat, such as their duel in that factory when Grievous was cutting up those boxes and chasing after Kenobi. You have very selective memory with Kenobi.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No I judge their Saber fight by how it went. Sidious resorted to force attacks to defeat the brothers. He never Saber stomped the 2 of them combined.


Just like Anakin resorted to the force to defeat Barriss, right? The difference is, Sidious actually defeated the brothers with his sabers, and he was tooling them combined. He was casually evading and blocking their blows, while landing his own physical attacks. Their 2 on 1 saber duel at the bottom of the palace was very brief before Sidious put Savage on his ass.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
A rage enhanced Maul showed parity with Sidious in Sabers (for a second time in his life mind you) based on how the fight went. They were going back and forth, both landed 1 kick each. Both parrying each others blows with equal skill and speed.


Again, clashing blades with someone who is not trying to kill you, does not suggest parity. Sidious didn't plan on killing Maul. He only wanted to disarm him, and it took him a little over 20 seconds to do it. If a kick suggests parity, then I guess Grievous must be equal to Ventress and Kenobi.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No he was fencing one handed and keeping his other hand free for force attacks. The attacks were meant to put Skywalker out of commission. But were not effective in doing that.


Barriss didn't need to rely on the force, as her saber skills were sufficient. Dooku's force attacks clearly did make a difference, as Anakin was clearly struggling when Dooku was throwing stuff at him and using chairs to keep him away. It helped Dooku a lot in keeping Anakin away.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
His FL+TK gave him the edge in the end.


I agree. But in pure sabers, Barriss did just as well.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But the Saber fight was pretty even steven until Anakin was able to kick Dooku over the steps.


Dooku would have lost if it weren't for his force powers.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't see how Barriss's performance compared to that. She posed a challenge. That's it.


Because she did just as well against Anakin in pure sabers. Dooku needed the force to come out on top, whereas Anakin was the one who needed the force against Barriss.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Face it your annoyed about me and Arhael using YOUR OWN logic against you.


No, no. You haven't used my own logic against me. You can't even grasp it. Not to sound cocky, but to compare my logic with the logic the two of you have been using, is an outright insult. I do not claim to be one of the smartest here, but I'm not that bad.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You claimed Fisto =/> Kenobi based on his performance against Grievous. You spent pages and pages claiming that fight was undeniable proof of this.


It took Kenobi several fights of consistent struggle against Grievous just to finally get it right. It took Fisto one shot against Grievous, and he tooled Grievous quite casually, and was even seemingly toyful with Grievous. Based on that, it's silly to assume Kenobi is much better than Kit, unless we are to assume that Kenobi held back all those times and purposely put himself in risky situations and purposely gets ragdolled and floored by Grievous on a consistent basis. You're trying to assume Kenobi is better than Kit, based on fights Kenobi's had against opponents whom Fisto has never even faced. The only other common opponent Kit and Kenobi has faced, was Ventress. And even based on their performances against Ventress, still does not suggest Kenobi is much better than Fisto. While Kenobi may have gotten the best of Ventress a couple of times, whereas Kit hasn't, Obi Wan has also beened owned by Ventress a lot worse than Fisto has. Hell, Obi Wan's last fight against Ventress, he even had Anakin's help and was humiliated by her a lot worse than Fisto's one time defeat by her.

What don't you get about that?


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But then when it comes to comparing Kenobi's and Sidious's Saber performance against The Exact same Opponents using the Exact same weapons, then you resort to sarcasm about how stupid that logic is.


Because Sidious never struggled against the brothers. He wasn't even trying to kill one of them. He was far more relaxed when facing them than Obi Wan was, and his grins & smiles, and Filoni's statement seem to suggest that Sidious didn't find them a threat to him at all combat-wise. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Sidious was putting his all in that fight. And Sidious, at other times, has displayed speed that is far beyond what the brothers can handle. And I don't see Maul's speed as being far beyond the likes of the celebrated swordsmaster that Sidious did blitze, when he couldn't even blitz a non force user. Sidious casually walked all over Maul and Opress. In comparison, Kenobi has been defeated by both of the brothers on other occasions, and consistently struggles against the likes of Grievous and Ventress, so their is no reason to believe that his fight against the brothers came as easily for him as it did for Sidious. If anything, there is a lot to suggest that the brothers were actually holding back against Kenobi, considering Maul's confirmation in "The Lawless" that he didn't plan on killing Kenobi, and the fact that Maul could have easily ended that fight whenever he wanted, considering how he ragdolled and barried Kenobi right after Savage's arm was severed. In short: Sidious would be able to replicate his raping of the brothers again and again, with ease. But there is nothing to suggest Kenobi can replicate his victory again and again, unless Maul and Savage just suck.


Comparing Sidious's performance against the same opponents whom Kenobi has faced to comparing Kenobi's performance against the same opponent who Fisto has faced, is not using my logic against me. Kenobi consistently struggles against Grievous, whereas Fisto handed him his ass the very first try. On the otherhand, Sidious defeated both of the brothers quite casually, whereas Kenobi, fighting for his life, managed to fight off both brothers, who were only wanting to restrain him, but has also been defeated by both of the brothers individually on other occasions. There is no comparison between Kenobi and Sidious in sabers. If Kenobi was even close to Sidious in sabers, then he shouldn't have a hard time against Grievous at all.

As I said before, I'm not good at getting my point across at all. I have a hard time at putting my arguments in proper words. But I'm just not seeing how you and Arhael are not understanding. lol


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Make up your mind how you want to debate instead of changing your mind whenever it suits you. And resorting to mocking and sarcasm when your own logic is used against you.


I use the same logic for any character I argue about, or at least I try. It's just hard to get anything across to you and Arhael. I don't know if you guys aren't catching on, or if you guys are just being intentionally dense and arguing for the sake of arguing.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Says who? And by how much? I need a quote please?

ROTS novel states he's continually getting stronger. Plus we know as a fact how much more powerful he's become from AOTC to ROTS.

What's the point in even arguing this point. ROTS was Anakin at his peak.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Almost defeated him when? Just because he kicked him to the ground?

LOL He was just lying there on the ground able to do nothing while he watched Dooku dispose of Obi-Wan!







Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
An angry Anakin battered Dooku's defense in no time. An angry Anakin struggled to do the same with Barriss. He needed his superior force powers against Barriss, whereas he just owned Dooku with his saber skills alone.

Urm no according to the script and the novel Anakin was already Angry at the point when Dooku kick slammed him. He just wasn't using his "Full Rage."

If you want to try and prove that Anakin used his "Full Rage" against Barriss your welcome to give it a shot.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'll recheck the fight, but I think you're exaggerating a bit. I don't remember Dooku taking his time, and I don't remember it being 10 seconds. But that besides the point; Anakin still owned Dooku when he got serious and angry. All he had to do, was decide to win, and he did. That's not what happened with Barriss, now did it?


LOL Here check it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmIkpRkgaZk

It's worse than I thought. More than 10 seconds even:

He gets kicked at 1:41. Anakin doesn't get back up to fight until 1:54. And he's literally not able to do anything except watch Obi-Wan get battered.

Again according to the script and novel he was serious and angry before Obi-Wan was disposed of.

But nice try.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
lmao, Kenobi has just recently ran from Grievous during their last fight, which took place this season. Not to mention the other times Grievous had Kenobi on the defensive and on the retreat, such as their duel in that factory when Grievous was cutting up those boxes and chasing after Kenobi. You have very selective memory with Kenobi.

HAHAHA you love lowballing Kenobi. He's never ran from Grievous. Why would he?

That recent episode it was made clear he was running from Grievous's ARMY!

Which episode you referring to when Grievous was cutting up boxes and chasing Kenobi LOL.

The only other episode when Grievous was chasing him was "Destroy Malevolence" when Obi-Wan had to get off his ship.

Now let's see Grievous ran away from KENOBI, not from Kenobi's troops, BOTH TIMES they had a ONE on ONE fight in "Grievous Intrigue" and in "Arc Troopers."

I'm afraid Sidious66 your the one with selective memory. Kenobi has never once retreated from Grievous alone. Only his army in the recent episode. And from his ship in the 4 th episode. LOL. I guess both Anakin and Obi-Wan were running from Griveous there because they were both so scared of a confrontation with him personally.

You attempts at lowballing Kenboi against Grievous have failed miserably.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just like Anakin resorted to the force to defeat Barriss, right? The difference is, Sidious actually defeated the brothers with his sabers, and he was tooling them combined. He was casually evading and blocking their blows, while landing his own physical attacks. Their 2 on 1 saber duel at the bottom of the palace was very brief before Sidious put Savage on his ass.

He defeated them ONE ON ONE in Sabers. Never both of them together. Even defeating Maul on his own was hardly easy for him.

Difference is Anakin was clearly superior to Barriss in every way. Sidious wasn't clearly superior to both brothers together in Sabers.

Heck Maul alone held his own in that department.

Besides what's your point here? I admit Barriss gave Anakin a legitimate challenge. Moreso in Sabers.

Are you ready to admit now that the brothers were legitimately challenging Sidious? Especially in the Saber fight?





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, clashing blades with someone who is not trying to kill you, does not suggest parity. Sidious didn't plan on killing Maul. He only wanted to disarm him, and it took him a little over 20 seconds to do it. If a kick suggests parity, then I guess Grievous must be equal to Ventress and Kenobi.

Oh back to the timing thing. They were fighting evenly. That's what suggests parity. In skill and in speed. And it was more than 20 seconds. Which is actually a lot for such an intense, evenly fought and offensive fight.

And yeah Grievous does give a hrad time to pretty much everybody in a Sole Saber duel. The funny thing is the only one whose completely stomped him in that regard is Obi-Wan.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66


No, no. You haven't used my own logic against me. You can't even grasp it. Not to sound cocky, but to compare my logic with the logic the two of you have been using, is an outright insult. I do not claim to be one of the smartest here, but I'm not that bad.

Urm yes we have. LOL your right though. I could never grasp YOUR Logic.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It took Kenobi several fights of consistent struggle against Grievous just to finally get it right. It took Fisto one shot against Grievous, and he tooled Grievous quite casually, and was even seemingly toyful with Grievous. Based on that, it's silly to assume Kenobi is much better than Kit, unless we are to assume that Kenobi held back all those times and purposely put himself in risky situations and purposely gets ragdolled and floored by Grievous on a consistent basis. You're trying to assume Kenobi is better than Kit, based on fights Kenobi's had against opponents whom Fisto has never even faced. The only other common opponent Kit and Kenobi has faced, was Ventress. And even based on their performances against Ventress, still does not suggest Kenobi is much better than Fisto. While Kenobi may have gotten the best of Ventress a couple of times, whereas Kit hasn't, Obi Wan has also beened owned by Ventress a lot worse than Fisto has. Hell, Obi Wan's last fight against Ventress, he even had Anakin's help and was humiliated by her a lot worse than Fisto's one time defeat by her.

HAHAHA.. Let me break down how ridiclous your post is.

Took Kenobi several fights to get it right? What does that mean?

Grievous Intigue was the first time they had a prolonged fight like Fisto and Grievous did. And Grievous even had the help of Mgnaguards. And gues who RAN?! OH yes it was Grievous.

So what's all this several fights to get it right shit? Fact is by ROTS Kenobi tooled a much better trained Grievous. Completely Saber tooled. Beyond what we've seen from any other Jedi- even Ventress.

It's stupid to assume his experience helped him. Because Grievous also has the same experience against Kenobi that Kenobi does against him.

Grievous fought Fisto once and had no idea what his fighting style was. And there's no way he was expecting Jar Kai from from him.

You want to be reasonable and comapare their performances against other opponents?

Fine Fisto has done nothing in his career to suggest he could go toe to toe with Maul and Opress. In fact his pathetic performance against Sidious shows he's not even as good as Opress alone. (As confirmed by Dave Filnoi).

He was tooled by Ventress. There's nothing anywhere to suggest he improved to the stage where he's now on par with her. Especially since we know it's Ventress whose vastly improved.

And you have Kenobi, who tooled Opress while besting Maul. He gave Grievous the biggest Saber tooling of his career. And he defeated Sith Anakin for GOD's Sake.

Frankly it's retarded to even compare the 2 now. And based on what? Oh Fisto beat Grievous one time. LOL

Oh and if your gna give me that crap that Kenobi only ofught well against Opress and Maul because Adi died, that's fine. We should then also ignore Fisto's feat since Grievous just killed his former Padawan! LOL

It's fine by me to ignore both those fights, because Kenobi still has feats. Fisto's got nothing except being blitzed by Sidious and Dave Filoni confirming he's not as good as Opress even with his buddys. laughing out loud

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66




There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Sidious was putting his all in that fight.

Actually there is. He was there to destroy Maul and outright kill Opress. And he became a whirlwind of destruction to do so.

There's nothing to suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

And Sidious, at other times, has displayed speed that is far beyond what the brothers can handle.

Kind of like how Kenobi at other times has shown feats that are beyond Fisto. laughing out loud

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If anything, there is a lot to suggest that the brothers were actually holding back against Kenobi, considering Maul's confirmation in "The Lawless" that he didn't plan on killing Kenobi, and the fact that Maul could have easily ended that fight whenever he wanted, considering how he ragdolled and barried Kenobi right after Savage's arm was severed.

What what what? Your claiming now that Maul can just ragdoll Kenobi whenever he feels like? Seriously S66 your losing the plot here.

"The Lawless" also shows Kenobi has no desire to kill Maul. Heck he tries to get him to change his ways! And he isn't supposed to kill him anyway. Windu makes it perfectly clear in "Revenge" that Maul's CAPTURE is far too important.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In short: Sidious would be able to replicate his raping of the brothers again and again, with ease. But there is nothing to suggest Kenobi can replicate his victory again and again, unless Maul and Savage just suck.

Perhaps, but there's everything to suggest that Kenobi is AT LEAST on par with Maul in Sabers. He's most probably above him. Even in an all out I don't believe Maul can just ragdoll him whenever he feels like. Not at all. He would have done so in both their One on One's if he could.

That alone puts him considerably above Grievous, Ventress and Opress. (Opress may have a chance with his mean Force Waves but it's pretty obvious Kenobi would take the majority).

That alone puts him far far above Fisto. In another league in fact. Fisto is no match for even Ventress.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS novel states he's continually getting stronger. Plus we know as a fact how much more powerful he's become from AOTC to ROTS.


I never said anything about AOTC Anakin. Of course he was more
powerful by ROTS, as it was years later.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What's the point in even arguing this point. ROTS was Anakin at his peak.


Never denied that. But did he suddenly reach his peak right at ROTS and no sooner? You need to prove he was more powerful as of ROTS than he was during his fight with Barriss, and by how much.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm no according to the script and the novel Anakin was already Angry at the point when Dooku kick slammed him. He just wasn't using his "Full Rage."


Well his anger is useless if he wasn't using it, right?


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If you want to try and prove that Anakin used his "Full Rage" against Barriss your welcome to give it a shot.


More double standards from you. lol

You don't use this standard when arguing that Sidious was using his full speed on Maul and Savage, you just accept that he was, despite the fact that Sidious has used better speed feats at other times. You suggested that I needed a quote that says Sidious wasn't using his full speed. Well, the same goes here: I need you to prove that Anakin wasn't using his full rage against Barriss. Obviously Anakin was angry at Barriss for setting his apprentice up, and risking her life of death penalty. There was visual signs of rage and frustration on Anakin's face when he was fighting Barriss. So if you claim that Anakin was holding back his full rage, then the burden of proof would be on you, would it not?



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He gets kicked at 1:41. Anakin doesn't get back up to fight until 1:54. And he's literally not able to do anything except watch Obi-Wan get battered.


Ok, so you were right. But why are you even bringing this up when you are the one who admitted that Anakin wasn't using his full rage at the time?

Hell, when Sidious floored both of the brothers in similar fashion, you implied that it was an indication that Sidious was being overwhelmed (despite the fact that he wasn't. but whatever, clearly Filoni must have aired a different fight for you than they did for the rest of the world).


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That recent episode it was made clear he was running from Grievous's ARMY!


Kenobi had an army too. And if it was the army that Obi Wan was running from, why is he the one who wanted to fight Grievous in the first place? Obi Wan only ran after Grievous sent his ass flying against the ship. clearly, Obi Wan felt that he was outmatched, and fled.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You attempts at lowballing Kenboi against Grievous have failed miserably.


No, I'm merely accepting consistencies. You are the one lowballing Grievous and Fisto.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He defeated them ONE ON ONE in Sabers. Never both of them together. Even defeating Maul on his own was hardly easy for him.


Well to the rest of the world, Sidious was tooling them both 2 on 1. They must have aired a different fight for you, IDK.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Difference is Anakin was clearly superior to Barriss in every way. Sidious wasn't clearly superior to both brothers together in Sabers.


laughing

Sidious stomped Savage and Maul far more easily than Anakin defeated Barriss.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Heck Maul alone held his own in that department.


Yes, they were clearly equals because Maul kicked him once, despite being disarmed right after Sidious decided to end it. lol


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Besides what's your point here? I admit Barriss gave Anakin a legitimate challenge. Moreso in Sabers.


More than Dooku.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Are you ready to admit now that the brothers were legitimately challenging Sidious? Especially in the Saber fight?


Well, no. I can't. Sorry, I didn't watch the same fight as you.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh back to the timing thing. They were fighting evenly. That's what suggests parity. In skill and in speed. And it was more than 20 seconds. Which is actually a lot for such an intense, evenly fought and offensive fight.


AOTC Kenobi was fighting Dooku for about 20 seconds, so I guess that suggests parity. Grievous fought Ventress for about 20 seconds, and even landed a kick on her, so I guess that also suggest parity. Ventress, with no lightsabers, landed several physical attacks on Anakin, and lasted for a few seconds, so I guess that suggests parity, possibly even superiority considering she didn't have her lightsabers. Ventress lasted about 20 seconds against Dooku after they both fled from Opress, so I guess that suggests parity.

So, yes I'm convinced. Maul, tapping into his full rage, managed to clash blades for a little over 20 seconds against someone who wasn't trying to kill him. This suggests that he is equal to Sidious in sheer speed, and can probably cut down three "celebrated swordsmasters" in seconds. Hmm, I wonder why he didn't just blitz Vizla. Oh, wait, I know: because he was wanting to impress the audience, so he put himself in very risky situations by allowing Vizla to nearly blow his body apart, instead of just ending the duel when they were saber length away from eachother.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yeah Grievous does give a hrad time to pretty much everybody in a Sole Saber duel. The funny thing is the only one whose completely stomped him in that regard is Obi-Wan.


Kit didn't have a hard time with him. He had Grievous on the defensive the whole fight. Obi Wan's best performance against Grievous didn't even come easy for him, as the novel says Obi Wan's defense was overloaded (are you now going to suggest that that's because Grievous had a speed upgrade since he fought Kit). For someone who is equal to Sidious in sabers, Kenobi should have absolutely no trouble against Grievous.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Grievous fought Fisto once and had no idea what his fighting style was. And there's no way he was expecting Jar Kai from from him.


This is just retarded. Grievous is a Jar Kai practitioner, and was trained specifically to fight jedi. However, it's not an everyday thing that a jedi fights a cyborg with four blades who can move them at angles that a jedi can not (thanks to his computer enhanced brain that allows him to coordinate all blades simultaneously). Kit had no experience with an opponent like Grievous, but he still tooled him his first try, whereas it took Kenobi several tries of consistent struggling to do just as good as Fisto.

You also have no proof that Grievous was all that much better as of ROTS. He is not a force user, so he doesn't increase in power. Does he get a speed upgrade every month or something? How is he any better? The computer chip he has in his brain allows him to quickly adapt to the fighting style of his opponents, as it did when he was fighting Mace. Nothing has changed about him. He had the same exact advantages when he fought Kit as when he fights any other jedi. Stop reaching.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was tooled by Ventress. There's nothing anywhere to suggest he improved to the stage where he's now on par with her. Especially since we know it's Ventress whose vastly improved.


And Kenobi was tooled by her on two occasions, and a lot worse than Fisto was. So again, their performances against Ventress does not suggest that Kenobi is much better than Fisto. Yes, Kenobi has bested her on occasions (whereas Fisto has never bested her), but he has also been humiliated by her in far worse ways than Fisto's one time defeat by her.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And you have Kenobi, who tooled Opress while besting Maul. He gave Grievous the biggest Saber tooling of his career. And he defeated Sith Anakin for GOD's Sake.


Fine, I'll go along with you and ignore circumstance and context, but that would just mean Maul and Savage both suck. That's ok with me. That very same season Kenobi was fleeing from Grievous, so I guess Grievous is a greater threat than Maul and Savage combined.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Frankly it's retarded to even compare the 2 now. And based on what? Oh Fisto beat Grievous one time. LOL


Fisto was easily tooling Grievous. Even when he had the opportunity to finish Grievous while Grievous was on his ass, he simply stood there taunting him (almost the same way Grievous did to Kenobi when he had Kenobi on his back) and allowed him to get back up, which suggested that Fisto didn't found Grievous to be a joke.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's fine by me to ignore both those fights, because Kenobi still has feats. Fisto's got nothing except being blitzed by Sidious and Dave Filoni confirming he's not as good as Opress even with his buddys. laughing out loud


Dave never confirmed this. He said Savage put up a better fight. If Filoni intended to depict Opress as being superior to the council members, then he failed at doing it by depicting Sidious as being playful and even suggested that Sidious was merely playing around.

BTW, my latest post here are for the other posters to read and to look into my arguments (and because it's fun to humiliate DP), because I do feel that Obi Wan has been overrated on these forums a bit too much. I do think that Obi Wan is a very skilled fighter, but I also think he has rivals, and the show has done a good job at suggesting that there are other jedi masters who are on par with him. I also think it's a bit too much to put him on the level of people like Dooku and Windu in saber skills.

The_Tempest
313

Excalibur2776
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dave never confirmed this. He said Savage put up a better fight. If Filoni intended to depict Opress as being superior to the council members, then he failed at doing it by depicting Sidious as being playful and even suggested that Sidious was merely playing around.

BTW, my latest post here are for the other posters to read and to look into my arguments (and because it's fun to humiliate DP), because I do feel that Obi Wan has been overrated on these forums a bit too much. I do think that Obi Wan is a very skilled fighter, but I also think he has rivals, and the show has done a good job at suggesting that there are other jedi masters who are on par with him. I also think it's a bit too much to put him on the level of people like Dooku and Windu in saber skills.

I have to say Sidious 66, your an AMAZING debator...

Zampanó
laughing

Kenobi was a weapon of mass destruction.

You're reaching into contradiction corner at this point.
http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/313.gif

The_Tempest
Gideon called, he says he's flattered you're using his catchphrase. He also says go **** yourself, immediately.

Col. Valerian
Gideon no longer matters on KMC.

excellent

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by The_Tempest
313


Good? You didn't do the Palpatine.


Originally posted by Excalibur2776
I have to say Sidious 66, your an AMAZING debator...


Thank you.





^Fixed.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Gideon no longer matters on KMC.

excellent

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x3/fatzscheflo/samuel-l-jackson-black-snake-moan-stare.gif

Arhael
Hah. Same way I can say that you have no proof that characters that don't intend to kill hold back and you are in no position to determine who and when is holding back.


Hmm. I said more or less the same thing about Sidious' performance against brothers and that's all you say is not proof but speculation and assumptions. Since when you adapted my tone?


Illogical? You are now labeling my arguments? Would you feel nice, if I showed the same disrespect to you? Why do you come to this forum? To discuss or to rant?


First, targeting wrist is not limiting, on opposite it makes things easier. To strike at body or head requires to close distance, which puts practitioner at risk of being hit as well. Also, in real life striking at wrists is not as beneficial because swords have guard and blade in most cases cannot deal sufficient damage, while lightsaber slices like through batter by mere touch.

Second, wrist as target wasn't my only argument. Before that I said that Force user can stop attack at the last moment causing only shin damage. That's what Dooku did to Kenobi.


This likehood does not apply to SW universe. They have the Force that allows them to predict things. Their anticipation allows them to prevent such accidents.
The fact is that even during training sparrings Force users don't hold back on speed and strength and I can actually give evidence to that:

"She deftly sidestepped the thrust and returned with a parry of her own as he stumbled to regain his balance. Had he been a real enemy, she could have finished him then, but she pulled her blade aside for a split second, just to demonstrate that Jacen had let his guard drop-a lesson a Jedi Knight would need to learn to avoid defeat."

And this:
"Jacen's lightsaber pressed against hers, and she took a step back. They stood deadlocked, slamming energy blade against impenetrable energy blade.

Fiery electricity crackled, and the air thickened with the sharp,scent of ozone. Tenel Ka pushed with all her strength, but Jacen countered with equal force.

Her palm was sweaty, but her hand maintained its grip on the rancor-tooth handle. Inside, the components of her lightsaber vibrated, as if struggling to maintain the full energy of the blade while Tenel Ka pressed so furiously against an equally powerful weapon.She pushed harder. The handle rattled.

Jacen grinned at her. "Hope you don't expect me to surrender too easily."

"Perhaps you should," she panted, and pressed harder, ignoring the strange, unsettling sensations from her weapon. She gritted her teeth. Her arm strained. The lightsabers whined and buzzed. Jacen shoved back with all his might. His eyes glittered with the effort.

Over by the edge of the clearing, Master Skywalker stood watching the tense battle, as did Lowbacca and Jaina.

Tenel Ka narrowed her gray eyes, not easing UP for an instant, wondering how best she could defeat Jacen and end this match.

Suddenly,.something changed inside her lightsaher. She heard a sharp crack and then a loud hissing sizzle.

Jacen pressed harder with his emerald-green blade. For the briefest instant, the golden sparks that shot through her white pulsating energy beam flickered wildly. Her blade bluffed with static, grew less focused.

Intent on the battle, Jacen gave a final, extra push with all his strength".

This shows that practitioners use their full strength against each other. Tenel Ka used all her strength and, yet, pressed even harder than that.
Their fight was described as "tense battle". Why would it be described like that, if they didn't put their full effort?

You are right, accidents can happen. And that's what happened in this fight, Tenel Ka lost arm. But that was completely unexpected due to lightsaber bein faulty. Otherwise they used their full strength. They parried as well as dodged and nowhere it was stated that they fought at half speed or anything like that. It only mentions how tenel Ka pulled her lightsaber aside, when opportunity to kill arose. And why would they need to? Force users can anticipate a blaster bolt before it is even shot, it shouldn't be difficult to anticipate a killing blow and stop attack at last instant causing cripling blow instead.

Also, keep in mind that it was Tenel Ka's first fight, yet, she was exerting her hardest and Luke felt alright about that. If unskilled combatant are allowed to use whole effort during sparring, why experienced ones wouldn't?
Moreover, most Jedi never had real lightsaber fight, yet, it was still Golden Age for Jedi in terms of saber skill. Dooku's saber prowess was gained from sparring, where they don't intend to kill. Sidious, also, never had real lightsaber fight. Maul attacking him in rage was the only exception.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x3/fatzscheflo/samuel-l-jackson-black-snake-moan-stare.gif

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7103567872/h3420B7A7/

DARTH POWER

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well his anger is useless if he wasn't using it, right?

Jeez you love stretching and grasping don't you? The script makes it perfectly clear before Dooku disposes of Anakin that Anakin is getting stronger as he gets madder.

How is that not using his anger?

Oh and it also confirms Dooku getting tired before Obi-Wan is disposed of.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You don't use this standard when arguing that Sidious was using his full speed on Maul and Savage, you just accept that he was, despite the fact that Sidious has used better speed feats at other times. You suggested that I needed a quote that says Sidious wasn't using his full speed. Well, the same goes here: I need you to prove that Anakin wasn't using his full rage against Barriss. Obviously Anakin was angry at Barriss for setting his apprentice up, and risking her life of death penalty. There was visual signs of rage and frustration on Anakin's face when he was fighting Barriss. So if you claim that Anakin was holding back his full rage, then the burden of proof would be on you, would it not?

Because Skywalker was trained to hold back on his anger smarty pants. Dooku notices that in the ROTS novel that even when he is using his anger, there's just so much Rage he's holding back on.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kenobi had an army too. And if it was the army that Obi Wan was running from, why is he the one who wanted to fight Grievous in the first place? Obi Wan only ran after Grievous sent his ass flying against the ship. clearly, Obi Wan felt that he was outmatched, and fled.

His army was outmatched. That was made perfectly clear.

Oh yeah I'm sure Obi-Wan felt outmatched after one kick.

This is what I'm talking about. Your lowballing of Kenobi is beyond ridiculous.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
AOTC Kenobi was fighting Dooku for about 20 seconds, so I guess that suggests parity.

No, it was clear who was winning that fight. No one's ever seen that fight as equal in any way.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Grievous fought Ventress for about 20 seconds, and even landed a kick on her, so I guess that also suggest parity.

He definitely posed a challenge. He is a challenge to most in pure Sabers. But she's actually the only one to defeat him wielding all 4 of his Sabers without resorting to a force attack.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ventress, with no lightsabers, landed several physical attacks on Anakin, and lasted for a few seconds, so I guess that suggests parity, possibly even superiority considering she didn't have her lightsabers. Ventress lasted about 20 seconds against Dooku after they both fled from Opress, so I guess that suggests parity.

Did any of those fights honestly look equal to you? Try to use some common sense on the matter.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So, yes I'm convinced. Maul, tapping into his full rage, managed to clash blades for a little over 20 seconds against someone who wasn't trying to kill him. This suggests that he is equal to Sidious in sheer speed, and can probably cut down three "celebrated swordsmasters" in seconds. Hmm, I wonder why he didn't just blitz Vizla.

Because he wasn't rage enhanced against Viszla.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh, wait, I know: because he was wanting to impress the audience, so he put himself in very risky situations by allowing Vizla to nearly blow his body apart, instead of just ending the duel when they were saber length away from eachother.

No, I never said he held back in the Saber combat against Viszla. I said that's likely why he didn't just Force Choke him, like Opress was doing so easily to all the other Mandalorians.

Or do you think it's just a coincidence that when both Ventress and Maul challenged non-force users to honourable combat that neither of them used Force TK?



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kit didn't have a hard time with him. He had Grievous on the defensive the whole fight.

No he didn't. He was hiding from him at the start. Chopped off one arm by getting him by surprise. Was unable to chop off a second arm which confirms the first one was a surprise hit.

And he only had him on the defense after a force push. Every single time Kenobi used a Force push on Grievous, Grievous just runs for his life laughing out loud

Not that it matters. Since Kenobi would be unlikely to do that as he is a defensive fighter anyway.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
For someone who is equal to Sidious in sabers, Kenobi should have absolutely no trouble against Grievous.

I never said Sidious and Kenobi were equals. I said there's reason to compare them in Saber prowess now. And that the last 2 seasons have clearly proven that both Kenobi and Skywalker are top tier PT Saber duelists, alongside the other greats.



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This is just retarded. Grievous is a Jar Kai practitioner, and was trained specifically to fight jedi. However, it's not an everyday thing that a jedi fights a cyborg with four blades who can move them at angles that a jedi can not (thanks to his computer enhanced brain that allows him to coordinate all blades simultaneously). Kit had no experience with an opponent like Grievous, but he still tooled him his first try, whereas it took Kenobi several tries of consistent struggling to do just as good as Fisto.

You think Fisto a Council Memeber wouldn't have been thoroughly informed of Grievos's abilities. Not to mention he already saw him in action. Not to mention it's not every day GG himself goes up against Jar Kai users. Not to mention GG just killed Fisto's former padawan.

Your lowballing of Kenobi completely fails.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You also have no proof that Grievous was all that much better as of ROTS. He is not a force user, so he doesn't increase in power. Does he get a speed upgrade every month or something? How is he any better? The computer chip he has in his brain allows him to quickly adapt to the fighting style of his opponents, as it did when he was fighting Mace. Nothing has changed about him. He had the same exact advantages when he fought Kit as when he fights any other jedi. Stop reaching.


What people don't get better with training? He specifically points out his training to Obi-Wan before they fight in ROTS."You fool, I've been trained in your Jedi Arts by Count Dooku!"

Why would he do that if he hadn't recieved any further training since they last met?

Not to mention his analyzing of Vapaad since.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
YAnd Kenobi was tooled by her on two occasions, and a lot worse than Fisto was. So again, their performances against Ventress does not suggest that Kenobi is much better than Fisto. Yes, Kenobi has bested her on occasions (whereas Fisto has never bested her), but he has also been humiliated by her in far worse ways than Fisto's one time defeat by her.

Kenobi got knocked down one time by a Rage enhanced Ventress who was able to choke both Anakin and Obi-Wan together.

Kenobi tooled Ventress shortly after she tooled Grievous in TCW Movie.

Later in TCW He's also proven himself easily a match for Maulwho is clearly > Ventress. Maul whose performance against Sidious was pretty damn good compared to Fisto's pathetic attaempt alongside a much more powerful ally.

Kenobi is simply >>> Fisto. All the evidence shows this. Again your just too arrogant to admit this.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Fine, I'll go along with you and ignore circumstance and context, but that would just mean Maul and Savage both suck. That's ok with me. That very same season Kenobi was fleeing from Grievous, so I guess Grievous is a greater threat than Maul and Savage combined.






LOL Go along with me? I'm the one who keeps saying WE HAVE TO INCLUDE circumstances and context. I just don't buy your fanatsy contexts.

As for Maul and Savage sucking.. They've both proven themselves >>> Fisto, Tiin and Kolar. As well as Adi, Plo Koon and Ventress.

So really you should be talking about how all of them suck.

Plus however you want to put it, the Brothers challenged Sidious in a legitimate fight (as Outright confirmed now by Dave Filoni).. Maul especially held his own. So how badly can they possibly suck?

The more reasonable assumption is:

1) It was possibly a Peak performance for Kenobi.
2) GOD FORBID That Kenobi is just That GOOD. GOD FORBID.

DARTH POWER
The official site outright confirms Anakin's superiority to Barriss in Sabers and the Force:

Barriss defends herself fiercely, but Anakin batters through her parries, throws her body with the Force, and disarms her.

Before that it specifically notes how she spends the fight running from Skywalker.

But still S66 ignore canon sources, or twist them to your own ends, and carry on speculating based on whatever you desire. It's what your best at. thumb up

-Pr-
How is Barriss being rated so highly? She did well against a holding-back Anakin. That's not bad, but it doesn't make her one of the elite Jedi...

The_Tempest
Originally posted by -Pr-
How is Barriss being rated so highly? She did well against a holding-back Anakin. That's not bad, but it doesn't make her one of the elite Jedi...

Holding back? He took a swing at her unarmed and was visibly furious the entire match.

Under the current standard for establishing parity, Anakin and Barriss are comparable as are Maul and Sidious.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by -Pr-
How is Barriss being rated so highly? She did well against a holding-back Anakin. That's not bad, but it doesn't make her one of the elite Jedi...

Oh they were trying to claim that Sidious was holding back against Maul and Opress, and that he could have Speed Blitzed them Superman style any second he wanted, but decided to do a cocky dance and play around instead.

They also expect us to believe that because Maul said to Obi-Wan in The Lawless that "I never planned on killing you," that Maul and Opress were obviously holding back on Kenobi when they fought.

So because a few of us were not accepting that, they're now arguing in a fashion that assumes no one ever holds back so as to mock us.(A lot of childish shit like that goes on over here).


Apart from the fact that Jedi restraint exists for Jedi, but not so much for Sith, they're forgetting the fact that we actually refer to canon sources on the subject as well.

So tbh I really don't care if Anakin was actually holding back or not, because the official site makes it perfectly clear he was superior to Barriss in every way.

As it makes clear that Sidious was superior to Maul and Opress. But also between the Site and Dave Filoni's comments it's clearly suggested Sidious wasn't holding back at all. Whilst the idea of him holding back is not suggested by any official source on the subject anywhere.

And Dave Filoni has confirmed that Obi-Wan legitimately defeated Maul and Opress.

Since certain members here can't take all that evidence they will just keep being childish about it.

-Pr-
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Holding back? He took a swing at her unarmed and was visibly furious the entire match.

Under the current standard for establishing parity, Anakin and Barriss are comparable as are Maul and Sidious.

Anakin was never going to kill her; he needed her to confess to what she'd done so that Ahsoka would be cleared.

Sidious would wreck Maul, as he rightly should.

I don't know what standard you're using for establishing parity, but tbh I'd change it asap.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh they were trying to claim that Sidious was holding back against Maul and Opress, and that he could have Speed Blitzed them Superman style any second he wanted, but decided to do a cocky dance and play around instead.

They also expect us to believe that because Maul said to Obi-Wan in The Lawless that "I never planned on killing you," that Maul and Opress were obviously holding back on Kenobi when they fought.

So because a few of us were not accepting that, they're now arguing in a fashion that assumes no one ever holds back so as to mock us.(A lot of childish shit like that goes on over here).


Apart from the fact that Jedi restraint exists for Jedi, but not so much for Sith, they're forgetting the fact that we actually refer to canon sources on the subject as well.

So tbh I really don't care if Anakin was actually holding back or not, because the official site makes it perfectly clear he was superior to Barriss in every way.

As it makes clear that Sidious was superior to Maul and Opress. But also between the Site and Dave Filoni's comments it's clearly suggested Sidious wasn't holding back at all. Whilst the idea of him holding back is not suggested by any official source on the subject anywhere.

And Dave Filoni has confirmed that Obi-Wan legitimately defeated Maul and Opress.

Since certain members here can't take all that evidence they will just keep being childish about it.

You seem frustrated.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by -Pr-
Anakin was never going to kill her; he needed her to confess to what she'd done so that Ahsoka would be cleared.

Sidious would wreck Maul, as he rightly should.

I don't know what standard you're using for establishing parity, but tbh I'd change it asap.

thumb up



Originally posted by -Pr-
You seem frustrated.

mad

The_Tempest
Originally posted by -Pr-
Anakin was never going to kill her; he needed her to confess to what she'd done so that Ahsoka would be cleared.

Sidious would wreck Maul, as he rightly should.

I don't know what standard you're using for establishing parity, but tbh I'd change it asap.

I don't disagree with any of this.

-Pr-
In all seriousness though, not to be snarky or anything, how exactly is parity established? It's not some horrible ABC logic is it?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Arhael
Hah. Same way I can say that you have no proof that characters that don't intend to kill hold back and you are in no position to determine who and when is holding back.


Hmm. I said more or less the same thing about Sidious' performance against brothers and that's all you say is not proof but speculation and assumptions. Since when you adapted my tone?


laughing
Wow, you completely missed it.


Originally posted by Arhael
Illogical? You are now labeling my arguments? Would you feel nice, if I showed the same disrespect to you? Why do you come to this forum? To discuss or to rant?


Your argument is illogical; there's no nicer way to put it.

I think it's equally rude for you to constantly use double standards in your arguments, and when called out on it, you get aggressive and stumble over your arguments, making excuses.


Originally posted by Arhael
First, targeting wrist is not limiting, on opposite it makes things easier.


It does not matter if targeting the wrists are easier than the rest of the body, you would still be limiting your areas of target. And if what you are saying is true, then I'm pretty sure an expert swordsman would know this as well, and would thus try to make it harder for his opponent to target his wrists.



Originally posted by Arhael
The fact is that even during training sparrings Force users don't hold back on speed and strength and I can actually give evidence to that:


Oh, yes they do hold back. Not too long ago JT posted up a passage that clearly showed Kit Fisto, in a sparring session with Obi Wan Kenobi, was limiting his speed just so Kenobi could keep up. Windu also had equal sparring sessions with master Tiin (one of the masters Sidious blitzed). Would you suggest that Mace was fighting his hardest against Tiin, and that their speed is even?


Originally posted by Arhael
"She deftly sidestepped the thrust and returned with a parry of her own as he stumbled to regain his balance. Had he been a real enemy, she could have finished him then, but she pulled her blade aside for a split second, just to demonstrate that Jacen had let his guard drop-a lesson a Jedi Knight would need to learn to avoid defeat."


This here actually supports what I've been saying all along, so I'm not sure why you even posted it. She was holding back a fatal blow that could have ended the fight a lot sooner had she been willing to kill him. Now, do me a favor and think about my argument regarding Sidious vs. Maul. Sidious was not wanting to kill Maul. Think about what I was saying, Arhael.


Originally posted by Arhael
This shows that practitioners use their full strength against each other. Tenel Ka used all her strength and, yet, pressed even harder than that.
Their fight was described as "tense battle".


Just because they used their full strength when pressing against eachothers lightsaber, does not suggest they were going all out and fighting their absolute hardest. I work with mentally-challenged people, and trust me some of them are really strong individuals, and when they start acting up, it sometimes takes full strength just to restrain them without hurting them. This does not mean that I'm fighting them my absolute hardest as I would an enemy on the street. Hell, I've even seen male cops struggling to restrain my sister, possibly using a good deal of their strength, but I wouldn't suggest that they were fighting her their hardest, or that she is equal to them in a fight. When trying to prevent yourself from hurting, or, in the case of a lightsaber duel, killing, you would be holding yourself back. This is common sense, Arhael.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by -Pr-
In all seriousness though, not to be snarky or anything, how exactly is parity established? It's not some horrible ABC logic is it?

There isn't parity.

-Pr-
How do you at least establish tiers, then?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by -Pr-
How do you at least establish tiers, then?

I don't do it just by who wins a fight, like Kurupt Thanos is insisting on.

That would mean Mace > Sidious > Yoda>Dooku>Obi-Wan>Anakin.

That kind of logic I'm just never going to buy.

Context of how a fight starts and why it is taking place is one. Environment in where a fight takes place is another. Then there's consistent showings. And another one is higher end showings.

Also statements from canon sources always help.

Zampanó
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Holding back? He took a swing at her unarmed and was visibly furious the entire match.

Under the current standard for establishing parity, Anakin and Barriss are comparable as are Maul and Sidious. Originally posted by -Pr-
Anakin was never going to kill her; he needed her to confess to what she'd done so that Ahsoka would be cleared.

Sidious would wreck Maul, as he rightly should.

I don't know what standard you're using for establishing parity, but tbh I'd change it asap.



You seem frustrated. Originally posted by -Pr-
In all seriousness though, not to be snarky or anything, how exactly is parity established? It's not some horrible ABC logic is it?

PR, you've stepped into the middle of a first-class trolling. Tempest is using this to undermine a different argument regarding (who else?) Darth Sidious.

At least one of the parties to this argument is being particularly disingenuous.

-Pr-

Arhael
Skilled non-sensitives can be harder to blitz. Jedi rely on Force anticipation but Force user of Sidious caliber can confuse anticipation. So what normally gives Force user advantage over non-sensitives can be used against him as well:
"This allowed him to keep his mind focused so he could use the Force to anticipate his opponent's moves, while at the same time obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses".

In fact even non-sensitive can blitz Force-sensitive:
"Fett shrugged, and then...

The next thing she knew, the wind was knocked out of her as he landed a punch in her gut. Her lightsaber was back on and slashing up across Fett's chest in a split sec-ond, unplanned; she snapped straight to instant raw instinct. Fett fell back a couple of steps. Jaina bent almost double, gasping for air as her solar plexus screamed in ag-onized protest at the punch, but she held her lightsaber out in front of her to ward him off.

"You..." Nobody had ever jumped her like that before. She hadn't sensed it coming. She struggled for breath".


No. Chances are that Sidious would struggle against Grievous more than Fisto.

I will now re-post this quote every time you try to lowball Kenobi based on performance against Grievous:

Originally posted by Arhael
"Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.

As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad - - the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled. To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that.

In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs... The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike. The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts.

The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance. Mace saw by the surprised look in the cyborg's reptilian eyes that, for all his strength, dexterity, and resolve, the living part of him wasn't always in perfect sync with his alloy servos.

Clearly, Grievous - - onetime courageous commander of sentient troops - - realized what Mace had done and wanted to sidestep, where General Grievous - - current commander of droids and other war machines - - wanted nothing more than to impale Mace with lunging thrusts of the paired blades. Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed.

Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep. Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell,
"

So lets gather facts:
1. Grievous used only two lightsabers, not four.
2. Barely he activated them Mace was all over him trying to take him down with unusual aggression for a Jedi.
3. Grievous attacks were as forceful as any Windu ever had to counter.
4. Windu was astonished by his speed.
5. Grievous didn't know Vaapad, which was giving advantage to Windu. And it still didn't help, Grievous simply learned it on the go.
6. Windu wasn't interested in prolonging the contest and started retreating despite the fact that Kit Fisto already finished Magnaguards.
7. As Grievous jumped after Windu and "faltered", Windu tried to take full advantage of that and attacked... only to nearly lose his head and jump away as well as give a Force push.

It couldn't be more obvious that Windu tried his hardest and still his performance against Grievous is nowhere as impressive as Fisto's. And this fight was enough for Windu to conclude that not him nor Yoda are good enough to defeat Grievous and that Kenobi is the best contender. Happy Dance

Windu and Kenobi are on the same boat, they both struggled against Grievous and Windu despite his aggressive style couldn't even put him on the defensive.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by -Pr-
That was the impression I was getting, but I'm semi-new to this forum so wanted to ask anyway.

Your obviously a SW fan. How come you've never been here in the past?

Too busy moderating the Comic Book forum?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by -Pr-
How do you at least establish tiers, then?

A complex formula involving accolades, feats, and general standing. One very easily could argue, for example, that Barriss outstrips a vast wealth of formidable characters by virtue of her performances in the last two episodes of the season. But when we take into account the fact that she is, by all accounts, a marginally talented Padawan... the idea that she could defeat some of these characters (Grievous, Ventress, Savage, Maul, Kenobi, etc.) deflates rapidly.

Arhael
Originally posted by The_Tempest
A complex formula involving accolades, feats, and general standing. One very easily could argue, for example, that Barriss outstrips a vast wealth of formidable characters by virtue of her performances in the last two episodes of the season. But when we take into account the fact that she is, by all accounts, a marginally talented Padawan... the idea that she could defeat some of these characters (Grievous, Ventress, Savage, Maul, Kenobi, etc.) deflates rapidly.
You forgot to include words "assumptions", "speculation", "lowballing", "dismissing", "ignoring" and trolling"" in your formula.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Arhael
You forgot to include words "assumptions", "speculation", "lowballing", "dismissing", "ignoring" and trolling"" in your formula.

You're absolutely precious when angry. Tell me again how Obi-Wan is on par with Sidious despite not being named as such by Lucas. laughing out loud

-Pr-
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your obviously a SW fan. How come you've never been here in the past?

Too busy moderating the Comic Book forum?

Yes, a massive, massive fan.

Lack of interest/knowledge/frame of reference.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A complex formula involving accolades, feats, and general standing. One very easily could argue, for example, that Barriss outstrips a vast wealth of formidable characters by virtue of her performances in the last two episodes of the season. But when we take into account the fact that she is, by all accounts, a marginally talented Padawan... the idea that she could defeat some of these characters (Grievous, Ventress, Savage, Maul, Kenobi, etc.) deflates rapidly.

So there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Sounds a lot like what we do on the VS forum, tbh.

Arhael
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're absolutely precious when angry. Tell me again how Obi-Wan is on par with Sidious despite not being named as such by Lucas. laughing out loud
I stated comparable saber performance, which still doesn't necessarily put him on parr. According to ranking provided by Nick Gillard Kenobi is level 8, while Anakin, Yoda, Windu and Sidious are 9. And considering how long Kenobi held his own against Anakin demonstrates that 1 level is very small difference.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Arhael
I stated comparable saber performance, which still doesn't necessarily put him on parr.

We've been through this before: Fisto, Kolar & Tiin all died with nary a single expression of the Force from Sidious, to which George decreed one must be Mace or Yoda to compete with him. I'll grant Dooku as a potential exception; he was both dead and aligned with Sidious anyway. But Obi-Wan was alive and an antagonist to the Sith, a potential opponent. That George omitted him must have been deliberate.



Before we get into that at all, remind me again of the questionable logic of comparing Kit to Obi-Wan based on "comparable performances" against Grievous when you do the same with Obi-Wan and Sidious based on "comparable performances" against the Zabraks?

DARTH POWER
Yes Arheal the whole concept of Kenobi being even comparable in Saber Skill to Sidious based on recent episodes has to be thrown out of the window based on Lucas's old statement from 2005. Well at least according to the dodgy interpretation of it. I swear Nick Gillard must have been high when Lucas gave him those Saber Prowess Ratings laughing out loud


Likewise we should throw out all of Filoni's current statements about Grievous based on what the ROTS Novel says written in 2005 which was line edited by Lucas, and based on Lucas's original vision shown in the CW Mini.

Because it's not like anyone here would want to use Double Standards or anything.

Arhael
Originally posted by The_Tempest
We've been through this before: Fisto, Kolar & Tiin all died with nary a single expression of the Force from Sidious, to which George decreed one must be Mace or Yoda to compete with him. I'll grant Dooku as a potential exception; he was both dead and aligned with Sidious anyway. But Obi-Wan was alive and an antagonist to the Sith, a potential opponent. That George omitted him must have been deliberate.
And we are being through this again. Statement applies in general and does not imply that Sidious is above others in every way. I argued strictly in confines of lightsaber skill.

This:
"In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine . On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious". - The making of RotS.

This quote applies strictly to sabers. It is direct proof that Anakin is on parr with Yoda, Windu and Sidious. Kenobi is one level below, which is not big difference considering that Kenobi could survive Anakin in exhaustively long fight.

And this:
"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting." - Nick Gillard, Homing Beacon #126

This quote is direct proof that rankings come from Lucas himself.
You assumed that Kenobi can't compete with Sidious "on any level" based on vague statement of Lucas. Now I have evidence that states Kenobi to be only 1 level below, which is rather small difference. And Anakin is on parr with Sidious in sabers, yet, he is still not on the list. So your rant about me being wrong to judge saber performance separately can be thrown out of the window.


Sure. When comparing Kenobi's and Fisto's performances I addressed circumstances.

Fisto:
1. He started by taunting and hiding in mist. It's called Dun Moch, which is known to render performance of opponent as well as provoke for silly move. And Grievous made that silly move, he made a single attack overexerting himself. Fisto took advantage of that and took away one lightsaber without any effort.

2. He utilized Jarkai. I've already said that Jarkai makes it much easier defending against simultaneous attacks. I even brought example of how Luke constructed second lightsaber to counter dual nature of Lumiya's lightwhip.

3. On top of that Grievous was already deprived of one lightsaber, when Fisto started overwhelming him.

4. Before the circumstances above Grievous held his own against both Fisto and Nahdar simultaneously until troopers started helping:
LSsoyjhnKw4
As you see with single lightsaber Fisto was nowhere as big problem despite another Jedi attacking Grievous from opposite side.

Kenobi:
1. Improves throughout series. Pointing out at how Grievous ragdolled him in one of the first episodes is as pointless as pointing out at how Dooku outskilled him.

2. His style is defensive. No matter how skilled he is, he will never be driving someone back because that's not what Soresu is about. Soresu is about passive defense, giving ground and waiting for opponent to make a mistake.

3. Uses only one lightsaber. And demonstrated defending against all four lightsabers.

Both novels and TCW consistently show that characters with single saber have much harder time against Grievous than Jarkai practitioners.

Nahdar casually handled Magnaguards, yet, he was helpless against Grievous:
Or1t7i20qi4

Eeth Koth is Forced on the defensive:
6Sbkpigyo4o

Fisto with help from padawan was unable to do anything to Grievous until troopers joined in.

The list extends farther with Windu being unable to do anything to Grievous.

With Jarkai both Fisto and Ventress showed themselves well. Even Asoka despite her inferior skill to others could hold her own against Grievous for a while with Jarkai.

No practitioner with single saber was able to disarm Grievous in straight fight. Kenobi is the only example as he disarmed him of two lightsabers.

As for performance against brothers circumstances and methods are almost the same. Both used Jarkai. Both utilized kicks. On top of that Sidious had advantage of using Force attacks, while Kenobi disadvantage of being targeted by Force attacks. Despite that Kenobi still handled Opress and he did that while dealing with Maul at the same time but Sidious took out Maul with TK and handled Opress in 1 on 1.

The_Tempest
Only if we neglect the fact that George's declaration was in response to three Jedi Masters losing to Sidious "in teh pure saberz!!1!" then yeah, sure.



So, what you're saying is... Sidious is a level 9... and Obi-Wan is a level 8. Now, last I checked, 9 is actually greater than 8... but, by all means, we will subvert mathematical axioms to further your argument. thumb up



...Which means Obi-Wan is better in "teh pure saberz!!1!" than Mace, Ventress, Fisto, Koth, et al.? Even though Nick Gillard (or Lucas, rather) says otherwise? Setting you up to defeat yourself is terribly easy.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Arhael
Skilled non-sensitives can be harder to blitz. Jedi rely on Force anticipation but Force user of Sidious caliber can confuse anticipation. So what normally gives Force user advantage over non-sensitives can be used against him as well:
"This allowed him to keep his mind focused so he could use the Force to anticipate his opponent's moves, while at the same time obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses".


Are you new to SW, Arhael? The average fan knows that a force user usually has the advantage of speed and reflex moreso than a non-force user. Shadow Conspiracy makes it very clear that the force gave Maul these advantages over Vizla, and yet Vizla still managed to hold his own. On the otherhand, we have Sidious blitzing two force users before they were able to react. Based on that, we can conclude that Sidious speed is above Maul's by miles, considering that the opponents he blitzed had the advantage of using the force for enhanced speed and reflex, whereas Vizla did not. And yes, as I said before, Sidious cut down the first two jedi through sheer speed. You can go digging up your little quotes about other force users confusing other force user's anticipation all you want, they're irrelevant; Sidious didn't use such a technique; sources make it clear that it was Sidious speed that allowed him to slaughter them so easily.


Originally posted by Arhael
In fact even non-sensitive can blitz Force-sensitive:
"Fett shrugged, and then...

The next thing she knew, the wind was knocked out of her as he landed a punch in her gut. Her lightsaber was back on and slashing up across Fett's chest in a split sec-ond, unplanned; she snapped straight to instant raw instinct. Fett fell back a couple of steps. Jaina bent almost double, gasping for air as her solar plexus screamed in ag-onized protest at the punch, but she held her lightsaber out in front of her to ward him off.

"You..." Nobody had ever jumped her like that before. She hadn't sensed it coming. She struggled for breath".


Do you mind posting the entire passage. To me it seems like she wasn't expecting an attack. Her lightsaber was off, and she claims she didn't sense it coming. She was caught by surprise from how I'm reading it.

Besides, it's not impossible for an exceptional non-force user to land blows on a force user. Vizla managed to land several blows on Maul, but it doesn't change the fact that Maul had better speed and reflex on account of being a force user. Why do you think it's more common for a force user to easily cut down non-force users than it is for them to cut down another force user?


Originally posted by Arhael
No. Chances are that Sidious would struggle against Grievous more than Fisto.


LMAO

Right. Which is why Sidious was able to effortlessly cut down Fisto, a jedi who tooled Grievous. Oh, wait, I know, that's because Fisto didn't have an extra lightsaber when facing Sidious, huh? Damn, if only he had two lightsabers, he could have possibly took on Darth Sidious all by himself.
laughing

You hate when I label your arguments, but yet you say shit like this. SMDH.


Originally posted by Arhael
I will now re-post this quote every time you try to lowball Kenobi based on performance against Grievous:


When do I lowball Kenobi? You said it yourself that Kenobi's performances against Grievous were all struggles.

You're just mad because Fisto, a jedi who was slaughtered by Sidious in mere seconds, gave Grievous an ass whoopin' his first try, whereas it took Kenobi several tries to do just as good, which would suggest that Fisto is may be on par with Kenobi. Why else would you be accusing me of lowballing Kenobi?
(Don't worry I will address your attempts to lowball Fisto, and I will be posting videos of Kenobi's performances against Greivous and I will break them down in detail hopefully soon. I've been feeling pretty chill and lazy lately and you're taking me out of my element stick out tongue )



Originally posted by Arhael
Windu and Kenobi are on the same boat, they both struggled against Grievous and Windu despite his aggressive style couldn't even put him on the defensive.


Windu fought Grievous on a moving train, so calling on the force to keep himself from flying off could have hampered his force speed, IDK. But we can ignore that possibility and acknowledge the fact that Grievous was intended to be a greater threat back then, as Tempest tried to explain to you. But if you want to ignore that also and the quotes that make it clear that Windu is second after Yoda in the order, we can go along with your argument and pretend that Kenobi and Fisto are on par with LOE Windu just for the sake of argument. So what? What's your point? How does that change my arguments regarding Kenobi and Fisto?

Arhael
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only if we neglect the fact that George's declaration was in response to three Jedi Masters losing to Sidious "in teh pure saberz!!1!" then yeah, sure.

Only if we neglect the facts that quote does not specify sabers, that both Maul and Opress could compete and that Anakin according to Lucas' sabers ranking is on parr with Sidious. I neglect the fact on which you base your assumption. You neglect the canon itself.


From Kenobi's fight with Anakin it is clear that difference is very small. So there is nothing wrong with Kenobi giving comparable performance.


Hah. Twisting my argument by taking my statement out of context. I nearly fell for that. You are amazing! (Can take that out of context too).
This is my full statement:

My statement confines it to those who utilized single saber against Grievous, so it excludes Ventress entirely. Fisto with single saber was unable to overwhelm Grievous even with help of his Padawan. Koth is below Kenobi, so pointless of you to mention him. That lives only Windu, which stated that Kenobi's style is more suitable to defeat Grievous. So no, it doesn't mean that Kenobi is better than Windu in "teh pure saberz!!".

Arhael
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Your argument is illogical; there's no nicer way to put it.

I think it's equally rude for you to constantly use double standards in your arguments, and when called out on it, you get aggressive and stumble over your arguments, making excuses.
I don't use double standards and addressed your accusion long ago. My arguments are logical and are based on canon evidence but that's not the point. Ranting and showing disrespect doesn't help to resolve a debate, quite opposite. You just have to accept that we have different opinion and logic.


You don't understand combat mechanics. Vital body parts are generally out of reach during fight. If one simply chooses to attack those parts he will most likely lose. Wrists are closer target, which means they can be reached faster than head or torso. If Luke in his rage tried attack Vader in head or torso, he would need to close distance but that would give Vader time and opportunity to counterattack or at least put another block. Instead Luke attacked wrist as it was already within his reach and much safer. That is the reason why most fights end up with disarming or chopped off wrists.

In order to deal killing blow it is required to open defence of the opponent first. But ones defence is opened there is always a choice of how to end fight.

Dooku opened Kenobi's defence by overpowering him in saber lock. He could could cut off his arm, he could slice him in half, he could slice his head off but chose to deal shin wound.

Same with Yoda. Whole time Dooku's vital parts and even wrists were well out of reach. Yoda needed to create opening in his defence first before dealing any damage, which he couldn't. And that's why he didn't need to hold back because opening Dooku's defence wouldn't kill.


So, Fisto held back to help Kenobi learn. Now can you prove that Kenobi held back? As for Windu and Tiin, I don't know specifics of the fight.

In any case, statements like Yoda and Dooku are the only ones who have ever bested Windu would make no sence, if they held back.

Another example is how Anakin tried to best Jacen and was getting frustrated, when he lost fight. If he held back, it wouldn't make sence at all.


No, it doesn't support your argument. She was holding back on fatal blow but she wasn't holding back on skill, speed and strength. His defence was oppened, she had choice to deal crippling blow. Same way Dooku had choice to kill Kenobi but crippled him instead. Same way Kenobi chose to chop off Opress' and Anakin's limbs, when he could simply kill. Whether they do killing or crippling blow, it's their choice, grants the same result and does not require to hold back on skill, strength or speed.

Whether Sidious was not going to kill Maul or simply desided not to kill him at the end doesn't matter. If his lightsaber reached Maul, he could abruptly stop attack causing non-fatal wound.
But most important is that, if Sidious held back, he would not be able to outskill Maul on first place. And Maul kicking him proves that he wasn't fast enough to avoid/block it. Nowhere Filoni states Sidious holding back, it's your assumption entirely.


With same success I can say that Jedi put hardest into their attacks knowing that opponent will block it.

Your example with patients doesn't apply because you can't injure them or apply any non-lethal techniques. Jedi that doesn't want to kill, still utilizes non-lethal techniques and doesn't mind to maim his opponent.

Equally I can give my own more relevant example.
When me and my friend sparred, we were punching at full speed. But at last instance we were stopping/relaxing our hands to prevent serious damage. Same way Force users can attack full speed but cause only crippling wound. More relevant example is that we were putting our hardest on grappling techniques. Succesful techniques normally lead to opportunity to finish opponent with a punch, which we choose not to do. Same way Force user puts his hardest to penetrate opponent's defence and on success, when opponent is at his mercy, choose to deal non-killing blow.

Shortly speaking, if there is a situation that opponent's vital organs are exposed, by default non-vital ones such as wrists will be too.

But the biggest flaw in your argument is that you assume that killing techniques are more effective than non-lethal ones, which is completely untrue. Non-lethal techniques can be as effective and in many situations are better option. I tell you this from my own experience.

I can try to punch opponent as hard as possible. On success he will get knocked down. But if he dodge, it will put me off-balance and I risk to get punched back. Alternatively I can slap opponent into eyes, such attack is faster as open palm has longer reach and does not require strength at all. On success he is blinded and I can do pretty much whatever I want to him. If he dodges, I am still in balance ready to attack again or defend. Second option is much less lethal, uses no strength, yet, it is far more intelligent, effective and safer despite the fact that it requires much less effort and doesn't harm.

And example from EU:
"Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet"

Dooku limited himself at attacking legs - non lethal part. He deliberetly targeted that area and he didn't even expect that any of his attacks will go through. Non-lethal attacks were consider the best option by Dooku who intended to kill Kenobi and if not for Kenobi's Soresu, it would most likely work.

Arhael
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are you new to SW, Arhael? The average fan knows that a force user usually has the advantage of speed and reflex moreso than a non-force user. Shadow Conspiracy makes it very clear that the force gave Maul these advantages over Vizla, and yet Vizla still managed to hold his own. On the otherhand, we have Sidious blitzing two force users before they were able to react. Based on that, we can conclude that Sidious speed is above Maul's by miles, considering that the opponents he blitzed had the advantage of using the force for enhanced speed and reflex, whereas Vizla did not. And yes, as I said before, Sidious cut down the first two jedi through sheer speed. You can go digging up your little quotes about other force users confusing other force user's anticipation all you want, they're irrelevant; Sidious didn't use such a technique; sources make it clear that it was Sidious speed that allowed him to slaughter them so easily.

You said "usually", which is the same as "not always". The fact that this guy demonstrated amazing performance against one elite Force user, while those Masters got punked by another, speaks for itself.

No, it wasn't speed alone, it couldn't be. Luke in RotJ put block against a blaster bolt(which is much faster than Sidious) before it was even shot. No matter how fast Sidious is, those first two masters would put up a block before he made a swing. Sidious apparently is as unpredictable as Caedus:
"A black boot heel came shooting under Jaina's guard, driving hard into her sore ribs. She stifled a cry and circled into the shadows, trying to acclimate her eyes to the darkness because it was impossible to sense Caedus in the Force."

And a source proves that it wasn't speed alone, it was "speed and dexterity". Dexterity ia synonym to ability and skill, which covers up whatever Force techniques he used to take them down. You assume that Sidious used Force speed. I assume that he confused their precognition as well.


You are right, she did not expect. My point is that the Force did not alarm her.
Yoda did not expect clones to attack, yet, Force alarmed him. But two masters did not even react, which means that Force did not alarm them.


Ironically your argument is as shit as it could be.
First, Windu (Sidious' equal) struggled against Grievous more than Fisto. Doesn't mean he is below Fisto. Same way Sidious killing Fisto so fast doesn't mean the same would happen to Grievous.

Second, Sidious did not speed blitzed Fisto, he outskilled him.


There is so much wrong in your post.
First, you keep judging by consistency. It is irrelevant what performance Kenobi demonstrated against Grievous in past. All that matters is that in their final fight Grievous was unable to do anything to him and lost two arms.

Second, it wasn't Fisto's first try.
The first try he and his Padawan attacked Grievous from opposite sides and Grievous had no problem fending both of them off at the same time:
LSsoyjhnKw4

As you see Fisto's performance against Grievous is even more inconsistent than Kenobi's, which mean that either:
1. Jarkai does make it easier after all.
2. His Dun Moch worked.
3. Both of the above.

And no, Fisto can't be on parr with Kenobi.
Fisto got handled in seconds despite help from Windu who is equal of Sidious in sabers. While Kenobi held his own against Anakin who is, also, Sidious' equal in sabers.


You are right, Windu was calling on the Force to root himself. Yet, he then got inside train, where such exercise would not be needed. When Grievous followed him, he "faltered" and Windu used that moment to attack only to nearly lose his head. On top of that Grievous used only two sabers.
Regardless, this experience led Windu to conclude that he is not good enough to defeat Grievous.
Finally, this fight happens after all the fights from TCW, which means that Grievous not only had time to improve his skill but he improved it during fight with Windu by learning Vaapad, which made him even more dangerous foe.

In other words Tempest's attempt to dismiss canon is nothing more than a desperation.

Kenobi's and Fisto's performance against Grievous doesn't put them on parr with Windu. Fisto's performance against Grievous with single saber was low despite Nahdar helping him. Only with Jarkai, which makes it much easier to defend against multiple attacks, he did well and on top of that Grievous at the time wasn't as skilled as later. And Kenobi's style is more suitable to take on Grievous as per Windu's statement. In other words ABC logic doesn't work without considering circumstances.

The_Tempest
The B-Team lost to Sidious in "teh pure saberz!!1!"

Try again.



The website confirms Sidious's unwavering position of superiority and the supervising director described it as both a "butt kicking" and a fight in which Sidious "tears apart."

Try again.



Obi-Wan's ability to hang with a disturbed Anakin under favorable circumstances does not constitute the ability to contend with Darth Sidious.



You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor

That's canon, straight from Lucas himself. As Obi-Wan is not Mace nor Yoda, you have no choice but to accept the fact that Kenobi is simply fodder for the Dark Lord.



It is when the absolute authority of the franchise dismisses Obi-Wan was comparable to Sidious. And when you reject a similar comparison and syllogism between Kenobi and Fisto.



It's not my fault that you're so easy to defeat. Perhaps you should construct your arguments in such a way that they are not so effortlessly turned against you?

Per your logic, single-saber!Mace is clearly no match for single-saber!Obi-Wan.

Good to know... except that it defies the Lucasian edict I provided and the one you provided.

You lose again, my son. I'll give you another attempt before I collect your concession. Make it count. erm

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Arhael
And a source proves that it wasn't speed alone, it was "speed and dexterity". Dexterity ia synonym to ability and skill, which covers up whatever Force techniques he used to take them down. You assume that Sidious used Force speed. I assume that he confused their precognition as well.


I've addressed this twice already in the Maul brothers vs. Bane: "Sidious killing those masters and forcing Windu back are not described for us as separate events, it was lumping up the entire sequence as a whole. The first two masters didn't even react to Sidious's attack, therefore, it was sheer speed that took them out. The source shouldn't have to connect the dots for us."

Now your argument is that dexterity was referring to some ability Sidious was using to confuse their precognition? I'm beginning to think you and Nai are one and the same or related. The dark side granting Sidious "inhuman speed and dexterity" is obviously referring to his physicality, his ability to apply his speed skillfully in a saber duel, not some force technique designed to confuse precognition. Maul, during his fight with Sidious on Hypori, once mused how his rage allowed him to fight with more speed and skill than ever before. Would you suggest that Maul was referring to some ability to confuse Sidious's precognition? The complete Visual Dictionary says Sidious cut those masters down before Mace realized it, which, again, is pointing to Sidious' advantage of speed.

I may or may not get back to the rest. You're arguing for the sake of argument, and you're getting desperate to win, so I don't even know if it's worth it.

Vensai
So are we in agreement that Barriss stops at one? I do not think Barriss can even beat her master since Luminara has better feats against Ventress than she does.

Arhael
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The B-Team lost to Sidious in "teh pure saberz!!1!"

Try again.

Anakin is on parr with Sidious in sabers, yet, he is not on the list.

Try again.


The movie shows how they competed with him for quite long time.

Try again.


Obi-Wan's ability to hang with a rage powered Anakin under unfavorable circumstances does constitute the ability to contend with Darth Sidious.


I have always accepted that Kenobi is fodder for him as his exceptional saber skills won't save him from Force attacks.


It is when you cling to a vague statement as last instance of your futile defense compensated by clever talk, which doesn't dismiss Obi-Wan being comparable to Sidious. And when you accept a not similar comparison between Kenobi and Fisto.


You are the only defeated, since you have nothing objective to say but twist argument inside out. Perhaps you should stop being hypocrite that deliberately takes words out of context to give it completely different meaning so every argument doesn't turn into trolling?

Per my logic Kenobi is below Windu, stop talking nonsense.

Nothing from what I said defies Lucasian edict and what I provided, stop talking nonsense.

Keep relishing your delusions, father.

Arhael
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I've addressed this twice already in the Maul brothers vs. Bane: "Sidious killing those masters and forcing Windu back are not described for us as separate events, it was lumping up the entire sequence as a whole. The first two masters didn't even react to Sidious's attack, therefore, it was sheer speed that took them out. The source shouldn't have to connect the dots for us."

Now your argument is that dexterity was referring to some ability Sidious was using to confuse their precognition? I'm beginning to think you and Nai are one and the same or related. The dark side granting Sidious "inhuman speed and dexterity" is obviously referring to his physicality, his ability to apply his speed skillfully in a saber duel, not some force technique designed to confuse precognition. Maul, during his fight with Sidious on Hypori, once mused how his rage allowed him to fight with more speed and skill than ever before. Would you suggest that Maul was referring to some ability to confuse Sidious's precognition? The complete Visual Dictionary says Sidious cut those masters down before Mace realized it, which, again, is pointing to Sidious' advantage of speed.

I may or may not get back to the rest. You're arguing for the sake of argument, and you're getting desperate to win, so I don't even know if it's worth it.

"unnatural dexterity and speed" is the correct quote. The first regards to abilites, which includes unpredictability, mind tricks or whatever other arcane powers Sidious possessed. He is Sith Lord that learned all known and previously unknown powers. He needed to take down masters as soon as possible, he didn't need to hold back on any techniques including confusing precognition, which is used in lightsaber combat as standard by Ka'sim and Bane who's knowledge is inherited by Sidious.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Arhael
He is Sith Lord that learned all known and previously unknown powers.


Nai was against this quote. You're using it to throw us off. lol stick out tongue

The_Tempest
I graciously accept your concession, child. You have failed me for the last time.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Arhael
You don't understand combat mechanics. Vital body parts are generally out of reach during fight. If one simply chooses to attack those parts he will most likely lose. Wrists are closer target, which means they can be reached faster than head or torso. If Luke in his rage tried attack Vader in head or torso, he would need to close distance but that would give Vader time and opportunity to counterattack or at least put another block. Instead Luke attacked wrist as it was already within his reach and much safer. That is the reason why most fights end up with disarming or chopped off wrists.


What is it that you're not understanding? I'm not arguing against your claim that targeting the wrists would be easier than the rest of the body. I'm saying that when targeting only a specific area, you would still be limiting your targets. This is a fact, no matter how much you argue against it. In a saber duel, your opponent is in constant motion, which would leave potential brief openings in many other areas of the body, many of which may be fatal, and if you pass up the opportunities to hit those areas in order to prevent yourself from killing your opponent, you would be holding back. If your opponent is trying to kill you, while your only aiming to disarm or to dismember certain body parts, your opponent would have far more openings to take advantage of, because they have not only your wrists to target, but they also have your entire body to target, which would give them a far greater chance at hitting their target. You see what I'm saying?

I just wanted to get this point cleared just in case this argument gets brought up again.



Originally posted by Arhael
While Kenobi held his own against Anakin who is, also, Sidious' equal in sabers.


Anakin is equal to Sidious based on what?



Originally posted by Arhael
Fisto's performance against Grievous with single saber was low despite Nahdar helping him.


No, it wasn't a low showing. Fisto did not struggle nor did he lose that encounter, so it wasn't an inconsistent showing at all. It is, however, a very weak attempt to lowball Fisto. We see later in that episode, that Fisto is more than capable of handling Grievous on his own using a single saber, which is basically how he ended up with a second saber to begin with--by disarming Grievous of one of his.

As for the rest, I'm done. It's not even worth it. It's clear you will continue whether you're wrong or not.

DARTH POWER
Arhael's responses have been a really interesting read.

The other 2 are predictable in their twisting of arguments and clinging to pointless information and are really not so interesting to read.

Arhael
What concession?
But I actually have one, I concede that it is pointless to argue with someone who turns every argument with god knows what.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it wasn't a low showing. Fisto did not struggle nor did he lose that encounter, so it wasn't an inconsistent showing at all. It is, however, a very weak attempt to lowball Fisto. We see later in that episode, that Fisto is more than capable of handling Grievous on his own using a single saber, which is basically how he ended up with a second saber to begin with--by disarming Grievous of one of his.

As for the rest, I'm done. It's not even worth it. It's clear you will continue whether you're wrong or not.
Indeed, Fisto is more than capable to handle Grievous, if he has mist to hide and taunt Grievous. Strange that he couldn't disarm Grievous of other sabers as easily.


I guess you haven't noticed what I already posted in this thread:


First quote proves that Anakin is on parr with Yoda, Windu and Sidious. Second proves that combat prowess is established by Lucas.

Finally, this:
To design and choreograph the sequence as well as the myriad other action-packed scenes in Revenge of the Sith Gillard says he first discussed with writer-director George Lucas the fighting prowess of each of the characters, which were ranked against other Jedi on a scale of 1 to 10.

Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented but he hasn't learned the mental side of it.

"Knowing all of that from a story standpoint was enormously helpful in choreographing the sequence", Gillard says.

This quote is taken from "Dueling Jedi" article and talks about fight between Anakin and Kenobi. It establishes Anakin's combat prowess as 9 and it actually makes sence considering how Kenobi level 8 was barely surviving whole fight. But the nicest thing is that popular assumption that Anakin wasn't able to perform against Kenobi at his best can be thrown out in the bin as Anakin wouldn't be given lightsaber prowess level 9 for this specific performance.


You are completely clueless what you talk about.

If there is an opportunity to strike at fatal areas, it mean that hands and other non-fatal areas are equaly exposed. It's a matter of choice where to strike ones there is an opening.

And you are completely wrong to think that, the one fighting with non-lethal intend is at disadvantage. Disarming techniques are actually more effective than killing ones.

My opponent might use full strength and try to knock me down as hard as possible. In turn I will not try to knock him down at all and use only fraction of my strength. I would deliberately limit my targets to eyes, throat and knee-caps and would try grappling techniques that mostly don't harm and restrain opponent. Even if I punch, it would serve only for breaking concentration and balance and by no means to knock down. On top of that I don't dodge with body like boxer, I keep my body centered instead. And I don't block attacks either, I deflect or redirect them only. Moreover, I don't even attack, I only respond to attacks with counter techniques, the only exception is kick in the knee. Putting so many limitations and restrictions doesn't mean that I hold back. It is done for various reasons and on opposite increases my combat prowess by a lot. It is my style and that's how I achieve my best performance.

If someone would try to stab me with knife, there are various techniques to couter it. And the harder he tries to kill me, the easier it is for me to disarm him.
But if I have a knife and face skilled opponent, I will not try to stab. I will attack with short slicing moves in fast succession. It will cause sever wounds to opponent's hands as he will try to defend but not kill. Yet, it is far more effective method as it is nearly impossible to defend against such attacks, while stabbing attacks are rather easy to defend against.
And if we both have knifes, again it will be much easier for me to deal cuts to his weapon arm than for him to stab me to death.

As of SW I already provided proof of how Dooku limited himself to striking Kenobi at knees, which you chose to ignore. And I can dig much more similar examples. Lethal techniques are simply not better than non-lethal ones, whether it is real life or science fiction.

Vaapad is the most lethal style but it doesn't make it the most effective one.

Makashi style is nowhere as lethal as Vaapad or Djem So and is centered on penetrating defence and disarming, yet, it is not weaker than any other style.

Soresu lacks offensiveness almost entirely. Would you say that it means each character using it holds back? The only thing it means is that practitioner utilizes his capabilities in different way.

Ironically, Windu with his most lethal style passively defeneded against Sidious whole time:
"It was difficult to learn how to be in a scene being backed up and on defense the whole time". - Samuel L Jackson.

And Windu finished fight by executing non-lethal technique. In novel Windu chose to slice lightsaber in half, when he could simply chop his wrist off like Luke.

So knowing that Windu didn't make a single offensive move with lightsaber except non-lethal technique at the end would you say that Windu held back?

I provided more than enough canon as well as real life information that proves non-lethal combat is more effective than lethal one.

Both your and Tempest's assumption that non-intention to kill means holding back is based on lack of knowledge of fighting mechanics and biased interpretation. And both of you provided 0 evidence to support your assumption. Tempest at least spared his embarassment by not replying on the matter, hiding behind a vague quote and simply trolling. Time for you to do the same thing, if you don't want to concede on something you are outright wrong.

The_Tempest
thumb up

Your budding self-awareness is appreciated. But, hey, if you ever come up with a response to Lucas's declaration that one must be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor that's worth my time, feel free to PM me. smile

Til then, the rest of us will carry on with the fact that Sidious would utterly and effortlessly trounce Obi-Wan all day, any day. laughing out loud

Arhael
Originally posted by The_Tempest
thumb up

Your budding self-awareness is appreciated. But, hey, if you ever come up with a response to Lucas's declaration that one must be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor that's worth my time, feel free to PM me. smile

Til then, the rest of us will carry on with the fact that Sidious would utterly and effortlessly trounce Obi-Wan all day, any day. laughing out loud
thumb down

The_Tempest
Originally posted by The_Tempest
thumb up

Your budding self-awareness is appreciated. But, hey, if you ever come up with a response to Lucas's declaration that one must be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor that's worth my time, feel free to PM me. smile

Til then, the rest of us will carry on with the fact that Sidious would utterly and effortlessly trounce Obi-Wan all day, any day. laughing out loud

Vensai
There's not shame in that. Sidious would put a force beatdown on the majority of Star Wars characters.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Vensai
There's not shame in that. Sidious would put a force beatdown on the majority of Star Wars characters.

I realize. Mine was a petty taunt designed to agitate Arhael further. I am exercising my privilege as eternal victor.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Arhael


Finally, this:
To design and choreograph the sequence as well as the myriad other action-packed scenes in Revenge of the Sith Gillard says he first discussed with writer-director George Lucas the fighting prowess of each of the characters, which were ranked against other Jedi on a scale of 1 to 10.

Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented but he hasn't learned the mental side of it.

"Knowing all of that from a story standpoint was enormously helpful in choreographing the sequence", Gillard says.

This quote is taken from "Dueling Jedi" article and talks about fight between Anakin and Kenobi. It establishes Anakin's combat prowess as 9 and it actually makes sence considering how Kenobi level 8 was barely surviving whole fight. But the nicest thing is that popular assumption that Anakin wasn't able to perform against Kenobi at his best can be thrown out in the bin as Anakin wouldn't be given lightsaber prowess level 9 for this specific performance.





Happy Dance

Zett
She perhaps has some chances only against Luminara. Everyone else can defeat her easily.

-Pr-
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Happy Dance

If only the movies or the shows/eu stuff actually reflected that.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by -Pr-
If only the movies or the shows/eu stuff actually reflected that.

The point of the levels were to choreograph the fights for the movies. They apply to what would happen on a level playing field, in a one on one fight.

However the actual results of the fights were affected by those other variables: Other combatants and uneven terrains.

I wouldn't mix those levels with the EU. As far as I'm concerned it just gives us an idea of the levels the ROTS combatants were on compared to each other at that time period.

However I'm not aware of the EU clearly contradicting any of it.

-Pr-
All I'm saying is that none of the EU or the movies gave us the impression that Anakin was that superior to Obi-Wan in saber skills, imo.

DARTH POWER
They're skills were always pretty even. But Anakin was always stronger/more powerful which was why he's always been a bigger threat to tackle for other opponents - Dooku, Ventress.

Could be Kenobi's skill set is just the perfect fit to fight Anakin.

-Pr-
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They're skills were always pretty even. But Anakin was always stronger/more powerful which was why he's always been a bigger threat to tackle for other opponents - Dooku, Ventress.

Could be Kenobi's skill set is just the perfect fit to fight Anakin.

As I said in other threads, I always felt that while Anakin was more powerful in the force, Obi-Wan is a better skilled duelist. I'll always think, too, that a large part of Anakin beating Dooku is his physical strength and aggression.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by -Pr-
As I said in other threads, I always felt that while Anakin was more powerful in the force, Obi-Wan is a better skilled duelist. I'll always think, too, that a large part of Anakin beating Dooku is his physical strength and aggression.

thumb up

Arhael
Agitate? Do you really think that your taunts actually work? All you did is provoked me to dig deeper and find more evidence to destroy your already weak argument.

You accused me of being wrong to judge sabers separately and saying that anyone other than Windu and Yoda can't compete Sidious "on any level". You even demanded apology. So much arrogance. And it turned out that you were the one wrong as Anakin who is not on the list of that Vague quote is on parr with Sidious specifically in lightsaber fighting prowess.

You kept speculating that characters hold back, if they don't intend to kill. Such assumtion is not only completely unsupported in EU but it shows that you don't know shit about combat mechanics. Your clever talk cannot desguise your incompetence on the matter.

You even went as far as tried to dismiss canon regarding Grievous because in your opinion built on ignorance he is "not a threat for real Jedi". Specifically, in evaluating performance of Fisto against Grievous you deliberately ignore obvious fact that using two lightsabers makes it much easier to defend against multiple attacks despite overwhelming evidence suggesting it. Somehow it escapes your mind that it is impossible to block simultanious attacks from different sides with single saber.

You constantly judge others calling them unreasonable and hypocrites and sometimes even rightfully so. Yet, you do the same things as them, sometimes even worse.

At the end of the day I am very satisfied with the outcome. I supported my points as well as refuted your ones with specific (not vague) canon evidence, while all you did is kept ignoring and dismissing things with nothing specific to back it up as well as twisting arguments. I explored new things and evidence I wasn't aware of, so debate purpose is fulfilled.

The_Tempest
I know my taunts worked; you went out of the way to address them here. If they were truly harmless or you couldn't have cared less, you'd have ignored them as I do SW_LeGeND or POWER.



We've been through this already, sweetheart. When I find the quote, I'll produce it; if I can't, you'll get an apology and concession.



Not true. But I appreciate your clumsy use of dishonesty; it vindicates my treatment of you. thumb up



As am I, my friend. As am I. smile

You must be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor

Obi-Wan is a level 8. Sidious is a level 9

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg350/Sasarix08/Funny%20Stuff/flawless-victory.jpg

Arhael
It takes you long time to find it though. In audio you provided Filoni talks about Grievous' exagerated performance in mini CW, while evidence I provided is from non-exagerated novels. Something tells me that I will wait forever, which is too long to wait for apology and concession. wink

Let me know, when you find. Untill then I have privilage of accusing you of unreasonably and baselessly dismissing canon. There is a reason why people make sure they have solid evidence before rushing to such bold conclusions.


So there you accept the idea that it helps to defend against attacks from multiple angles and I hadn't seen it. Yet, when evaluating Sidious's performance, you gave 0 wait to the fact that he used 2 sabers. At no point you acknowledged that using two sabers increased his chances of defeating brothers.

Here you demonstrate your ignorance with sarcasm:
Originally posted by The_Tempest The brothers stomp.

One blade!Sidious cannot hope to match, let alone defeat, four blade!Zabraks. Only by divine intervention, perhaps by channeling the spirit of the great Barriss Offee, could the Dark Lord hope to secure a victory.

And here you support argument of KuRuPT Thanosi who argued that using two weapons doesn't help against multiple opponents:


And you are calling me dishonest.

To understand why Grievous have advantage against single saber users you need to understand combat mechanics. Fencer with single weapon cannot block simultanious attacks of oponent with two weapons. For that reason he has no choice but to fight defensively, constantly giving ground. This is the advantage of Jarkai. This is the reason why Dooku in AotC constantly moved backward from Anakin with two weapons.

On the other hand using two weapons practitioner lacks strength and has to split focus on two weapons. For these reasons despite ability to attack and block more, this style does not make it easier to defeat single saber wielder.

But, when considering Grievous, it is not quite the same. Blocking one weapon and dodging another is not that hard. But when you block one weapon and need to dodge 3 more, things become much more complicated.

Jarkai guards practitioner from both sides, so practitioner can block more and dodge less significantly mitigating Grievous' advantage.

Simply speaking having only one saber Jedi has no choice but fight defencively against Grievous. Kenobi, Koth and Adi Galia were all driven back by Grievous. There is no single example, where someone could actually put Grievous on defensive with single saber.

Vaapad is a lethal style requiring to fight offensively, main advantage of style is wasted since Windu would be on the defensive for the most part. That's why Soresu is better option as it excels at defensive fighting - the most suitable way to fight someone with more weapons like Grievous.


And Anakin is a level 9, which proves that your interpretation of first quote is wrong.
And Kenobi demonstrated that level 8 is more than enough to comete level 9 in sabers.
http://s11.postimage.org/wsia66rb7/ggg.jpg

The_Tempest
Consider this an exercise in patience. Perhaps you could use the downtime to refine your tenuous grasp of the English language and general reading comprehension?



Indeed. If I may redirect you to your own proffered wisdom,



thumb up



Because I don't subscribe to the retarded RPG paradigm that the presence of multiple lightsabers works as a colossal skill multiplier.



Not really, no.



Kenobi demonstrated that his level 8 is more than enough to compete with a particular level 9 individual who happens to not be Sidious, who (per Lucas) would utterly annihilate Obi-Wan with impunity.

Your convoluted syllogisms are trumped by direct statement from canon's highest authority.

Arhael
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Consider this an exercise in patience. Perhaps you could use the downtime to refine your tenuous grasp of the English language and general reading comprehension?

Don't need to, I have you to correct me whenever I make a mistake. I better spend this time pointing out at your desperation demonstrated through lousy attempts to dismiss canon that proves your opinion wrong. wink


Ones again you dismiss without any substantial evidence to back it up.
Don't see any relevance to RPG, I argue from SW and real life perspective only. And nowhere I spoke about skill, I was talking about specific advantages certain style offers.

Lord Nyax with 8 lightsabers could defend against Luke, Mara, Tahiri and Yuuzhan Vongs surrounding him from all sides. - Impossible feat for any single weapon wielder.

Right at begining Nyax demonstrated how having multiple lightsabers gives better defense and offense capabilities:
"Luke raised his lightsaber, caught the downward sweep of Lord Nyax's right-hand forearm weapon. He spun clockwise, narrowing his profile as the left-hand forearm blade thrust toward him, and kept his guard up in time to intercept the right-hand elbow blade. Mara leapt forward, unleashing two fast blows that the thing's left-elbow blade caught, then folded over nearly double as she leaped back from a strike from its left knee."


In other words you have nothing to say on the matter.
According to what you said others than Yoda and Windu can't compete Sidious "on any level". You assumed that this vague quote mean that Sidious is better than others in every way. Anakin having equal saber prowess is direct proof that you were wrong and your apology demands were rude and unreasonable.


Level 9 is level 9. The bigger part of the fight with Anakin was on even ground. If it was Sidious, the only significant difference would be that Sidious can easily Force handle him. Lucas never stated that Kenobi would be utterly annihilated by Sidious in sabers, the way you interpret a vague quote doesn't make it so.

The_Tempest
A full time job, it would seem.



I explained months ago that the use of multiple lightsabers can provide a specific advantage in fending off attacks from multiple angles.

You can consider that a blank cheque for martial superiority all you like, but as Tzeentch. explained elsewhere, it would also be a disadvantage in some respects.

Trying to package Jar'Kai as the end all be all in combat is a futile effort.



Nowhere is Anakin said to be Sidious's "equal" in lightsaber combat.



Fortunately, Obi-Wan is a level 8 and therefore lesser than Sidious in swordsmanship. wink



It's already been exhaustively established by users such as Galan007, Lucien, and others that Anakin's performance on Mustafar was relatively sub-par.

If Sidious were a fresh convert to the dark side and under extreme emotional and psychological duress, then you might have a point. But, as is often the case, you don't.

Arhael

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Arhael

Nick Gillard discussed with Lucas "fightning prowess" of characters. Yoda, Windu and Anakin are 9 just like Sidious. If you want exact statement with word "equal", then there is none. Equally I can say that nowhere Sidious is stated to be Kenobi's superior in lightsaber combat.


His exact words were "They're up with Sidious." A pretty clear statement of parity.


Originally posted by Arhael
Which I am not arguing against. That still doesn't mean that Kenobi cannot stalemate or even defeat him in sabers.





Yeah 9>8. It's not >>> The Master of Soresu is not going to be easy pickings in Sabers.

The_Tempest
You pursue my attention so eagerly, why not reward you for your persistence?



Then you should have little difficulty grasping why I don't subscribe to the ridiculous notion that "sidious only won cuz of two saberz!!!! lololol!!1!"



facepalm

That doesn't mean their skill is identical or equal.

5m2yIAxeBHA&feature=player_embedded

5:30, courtesy of Nick Gillard. Even among peers, there can clearly be some disparity.





^ So what you claimed here is untrue? Excellent. Concession accepted. If I may offer (again) some advice for your future endeavors:



laughing out loud



Sidious, Yoda, Mace, and Anakin all being level 9 means that they're in the same class; Obi-Wan being a level 8, per Gillard, means he's not in that class. You should know this, since you provided the damning quote.

I didn't bother reading the remaining post. Your dishonesty is both unwarranted and most hurtful. erm

Arhael
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Then you should have little difficulty grasping why I don't subscribe to the ridiculous notion that "sidious only won cuz of two saberz!!!! lololol!!1!"
Again you take words out of context. You are pathetic.


Indeed, there can be disparity but insignificant one. We know that even level 8 can compete level 9 as Kenobi demonstrated against Anakin. Assuming that Anakin can't compete Sidious in sabers despite being on the same level is ridiculous.


No, what I said is true. Last time I checked 9 is equal to 9. And you are changing topic. It is irrelevant, if there is any disparity between level 9 characters. Point is that even level 8 can compete level 9. Anakin is level 9, which means he can compete Sidious at least in sabers, yet, he is not on the list.


I know this. My point is that you refuse to accept that dakrside Anakin is on parr with Sidious in sabers, despite them being on same level according to this quote. Yet, you happily accept that Kenobi is lower class according to the same quote. You refuse one part of evidence and accept another. Either you accept both or neither.

The_Tempest
I won't apologize for the ability to ridicule your argument while simultaneously debunking it. erm



I need not prove the extent of disparity, merely the potential existence of one.

You claimed that Anakin's "lightsaber prowess" was "equal" to Sidious's despite having zero evidence to support it:



Then, you concede it:



Then, when taunted, you retract your concession:



It's clear that pride, rather than logic, dictates your arguments. (This is why I was taunting you.)



Obi-Wan benefited from intimate knowledge of Anakin's technique and idiosyncrasies; knowledge he'd lack against Sidious, to say nothing of Anakin's tenuous mental state that undermined his performance.



I never claimed that Anakin can't compete with Sidious.

I'm afraid this is the last demonstration of naked deceit I'll entertain, Arhael. Welcome to my ignore list. thumb up

DARTH POWER
Nice One Arhael.

When Tempest puts you on ignore it means you've called him out on his shit thumb up

The_Tempest
I wonder if your creepiness is the product of hard work or natural talent...

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Memes/600full-misery-screenshot_zpsdd1c8a9f.jpg

Arhael
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I won't apologize for the ability to ridicule your argument while simultaneously debunking it. erm

Like I ever needed it.


I did not concede anything. Them being equals in sabers is conclusion based on them having the same level of fighting prowess. I can describe it as being on parr in sabers, if you don't like word "equal". And as I said you are trying to change topic.


Anakin was benefiting from the same knowledge. Yes, Kenobi won't know Sidious' movements but neither will Sidious, it goes either way. Again you bring up this baseless assumption that his performance was undermined. Anakin's mental state is what amplified his performance, he became level 9 by turning to darkside on first place. It's "the difference between light and dark".


I know. I deliberately said that expecting you to correct me. You just fell into trap.

It was Kenobi you claimed can't compete Sidious "on any level". You made this claim because Kenobi is not on the list of that vague quote. That means that by your interpretation Anakin, also, can't compete Sidious "on any level". Yet, you never claimed that. Now either you agree that Anakin can't compete Sidious on any level as well. Or concede that it is unwise to judge by a vague quote. Any other choice means that you use double standards.


I will miss you, baby. sadwalk

DARTH POWER
I wasn't even talking to the no.1 TROLL so I don't know why he's directly addressed me.

Do us all a favor and just put the whole of KMC on ignore thumb up

Sybrael
Barriss is no Jedi. She attacked the Temple, nearly killed Ahsoka and even took on Anakin.

Vensai
Originally posted by Sybrael
Barriss is no Jedi. She attacked the Temple, nearly killed Ahsoka and even took on Anakin.

What are you saying? Barriss stops at one.

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