Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Was there any way the Soviet Union wouldn't have fallen? Was there anything the Russians could have done to stop that? Or was it inevitable?

What would the world situation be if the Soviet Union hadn't fallen?

Russia could have not rushed so foolishly to spend its every single dollar to compete militarily with America.

The world would probably still be bi-polar. While some things might be nicer, there would likely be more proxy wars ongoing between the two nations.

Originally posted by inimalist
Russia could have not rushed so foolishly to spend its every single dollar to compete militarily with America.

The world would probably still be bi-polar. While some things might be nicer, there would likely be more proxy wars ongoing between the two nations.

You think a communist state would still be upright?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You think a communist state would still be upright?

autocratic fascist state, but ya

The Soviet Union was not fascist. If it was, it would foster business interests and there would be no cold war because if the pre-WWII relationship with Europe and relationships with central and south america are any indications, not to mention projects such as paperclip and 731, America loves fascism and fascists.

Originally posted by UKR
Was there any way the Soviet Union wouldn't have fallen? Was there anything the Russians could have done to stop that? Or was it inevitable?

What would the world situation be if the Soviet Union hadn't fallen?

Built a timemachine, gone back and stopped the insemination of the man who would become "The Gipper."

Hard to say, part of me wants to think Americans would have tired of the "Red Scare" by now, but part of me knows how the American public as a whole thinks. Probably what another poster said, multiple proxy wars where smaller nations are nothing more than pawns to the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. and their schemes for resources.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
The Soviet Union was not fascist. If it was, it would foster business interests and there would be no cold war because if the pre-WWII relationship with Europe and relationships with central and south america are any indications, not to mention projects such as paperclip and 731, America loves fascism and fascists.

Ya, I don't buy that socialist crap about fascism being defined by corporate interests.

I wasn't writing a dissertation, feel free to replace "fascist" with "dictatorial" or "authoritarian". The term was used to denote the ultimate power in the nation falling under the will of a single individual. Hence, not communist.

EDIT: and I hate to use wiki to make my points, but here is their sort of into to fascism:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

One thing of note, if the U.S.S.R. hadn't buckled, they (probably) wouldn't have left Afghanistan and it's possible that the extreme Islamic world would still be against them and pro-America.

Originally posted by Robtard
One thing of note, if the U.S.S.R. hadn't buckled, they (probably) wouldn't have left Afghanistan and it's possible that the extreme Islamic world would still be against them and pro-America.

thats variable

American decadence (as seen by Sayyid Qutb) was one of the primary reasons for the denouncing of the American way of life as sinful/corrupt/non-muslim. Qutb reached these conclusions as a student in Colorado in the... 50s? iirc.

When he returned to Egypt, he and other fundamentalists (not jihadiis at this point) formed groups bent on removing the American influence from Egyptian politics. He and others were imprisoned and tortured, and Qutb designed a philosophy of Jahilliya (I'm sure that isn't spelled correctly) that allowed for the killing of those who "suffered" from "Jahillya" (basically corruption to the point where one is no longer a muslim and sacrifices their right to life). Al Qaeda's #2, and largely considered their ideological leader, Ayman al Zawahari, comes from this Qutb tradition in Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Bin Laden, on the other hand, became estranged with America for 2/3 reasons. 1 and 2 are Lebanon/Palestine. I'm not overly aware of his thoughts about Israel and America in general prior to the invasion of Lebanon by the states in the 80s, but afterward, he was entirely radicalized against them. The other is that the Saudi government chose to allow Americans into the Kingdom to protect it against a potential invasion from Iraq, instead of allowing Bin Laden's mujahideen to do so. Bin Laden saw this as a personal and spiritual insult, and considers the presence of American troops on the Saudi peninsula (even though they are invited by the king) an act of war against muslims.

It is also important to remember that prior to 9-11, most jihadiis were not militantly anti-american. Jihad was more about local nationalist movements and not about global political struggle. Al Qaeda was generally seen as "outsiders" to the "real" jihadiis, like the precursors to the Taliban. God, it probably wasn't until Clinton bombed that pill factory that a significant portion of Jihadiis decided to engage in this cosmic anti-American war, rather than local nationalist struggles.

Afghanistan would be crazy now if America and Russia had continued fighting each other through there, but the anti-american Jihad, imho, is really unrelated. It is also questionable whether Bin Laden's Arab fighters received very much support from the Americans in Afghanistan anyways. Most American funds went through the ISI to local Afghan forces, not the foreign Arabs, who were supported more through Saudi channels.

blah, sorry for the rant dude

Originally posted by inimalist
blah, sorry for the rant dude

No problem, was a decent rant.

Though I would argue on how much the U.S. helped the Afghans against the U.S.S.R., mind you, I don't think America did it to be nice, as much as they did it to further ruin the U.S.S.R. both financially and world opinion-wise. I believe the help given was considerable.

Hard to say if USSR would have fallen. Had Lenin lived 100 years or if Putin was older and immortal - possibly. Everything in between was either American lapdog-ish, paranoid or greedy..etc.

Had USSR lived, there probably wound't be all the smaller nations we see now which were mostly Russia anyway.
I just don't understand why Ukrainians incorporated latinised letter I in cyrilic. Seriously

And Russia was never fascist. What the hell? It was technically not communist either - for what communist in practice can be called.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

And Russia was never fascist. What the hell? It was technically not communist either - for what communist in practice can be called.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Fascist_Party

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Fascist_Party

Holy shit, you're so smart!

From the SAME link -

''The Russian Fascist Party (RFP), sometimes called the All-Russian Fascist Party, was a minor Russian emigre movement that was based in Manchukuo during the 1930s and 1940s.''



OH SHIT, Canada is fascist!! ZOMG!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_John_Beattie

Look America is also Fascist! LULZ!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Nazi_Party

Don't be so butt-hurt because the Forum Ninja schooled you with the irrefutable Wiki-fact-bomb, B.

Originally posted by Robtard
No problem, was a decent rant.

Though I would argue on how much the U.S. helped the Afghans against the U.S.S.R., mind you, I don't think America did it to be nice, as much as they did it to further ruin the U.S.S.R. both financially and world opinion-wise. I believe the help given was considerable.

they gave lots of money

There were 2 types of fighters in Afghanistan. Local afghans and foreign Arabs. The US funneled money in through Pakistan's ISI, who would only fund the local Afghan groups, mainly because they wanted influence over whoever ended up running Afghanistan (the Taliban were a pet of the ISI for years). They didn't pay the foreigners because they couldn't control them, and they would leave after.

The Saudis, iirc, paid the Arabs.

Originally posted by Robtard
Don't be so butt-hurt because the Forum Ninja schooled you with the irrefutable Wiki-fact-bomb, B.

I'm the reason her butt hurts.

My dick, you see.

The Soviet Union was going to fall no matter if they got into an arms race or not. Nationalism and gross misconduct against the people in general would have led to steadily increasing revolts.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

I just don't understand why Ukrainians incorporated latinised letter I in cyrilic. Seriously
Because they were already using it normally anyway.

Originally posted by BackFire
I'm the reason her butt hurts.

My dick, you see.

FYI, you got sloppy seconds, I was there first.

On a completely unrelated note, Russia is no longer number one for having the most billionaires, it dropped from having 74 to 27, in about a year's time. America is now in the clear lead with 54 'billies.' "Pwned"

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Holy shit, you're so smart!

From the SAME link -

''The Russian Fascist Party (RFP), sometimes called the All-Russian Fascist Party, was a minor Russian emigre movement that was based in Manchukuo during the 1930s and 1940s.''



OH SHIT, Canada is fascist!! ZOMG!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_John_Beattie

Look America is also Fascist! LULZ!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Nazi_Party

Well, they're not fascist. You kind of missed my point entirely. I just wanted to clarify that Russia has not gone without fascism. Oh, I'm not counting Putin's subliminally fascist Russia either.

You should have asked me to elaborate instead of going on a condescending rampage based on an assumption.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Holy shit, you're so smart!

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
Well, they're not fascist. You kind of missed my point entirely. I just wanted to clarify that Russia has not gone without fascism. Oh, I'm not counting Putin's subliminally fascist Russia either.

You should have asked me to elaborate instead of going on a condescending rampage based on an assumption.


Well, I wouldn't call Canada a free country, what with racism being illegal and punishable and all. I guess this country's government doesn't consider freedom important compared to political correctness. If fascists hate freedom, then Canada is certainly run by fascists. The only way racists should be able to go to jail is if they physically harm someone or cause property damage. Racism should be legalized...not marijuana or gay marriage.

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
Well, they're not fascist. You kind of missed my point entirely. I just wanted to clarify that Russia has not gone without fascism. Oh, I'm not counting Putin's subliminally fascist Russia either.

You should have asked me to elaborate instead of going on a condescending rampage based on an assumption.

So have Canada and America and about every country in the world. Almost every one had fascism, that doesn't make them fascist countries. Your point is non existant. Russia was never a fascist country. To claim otherwise is ignorant of history.

And the fact you hate Putin for whatever reason, doesn't make Russia fascist. I don't like Bush, Obama and I hate both Clintons but that doesn't make America fascist nor any less of a democracy....by what modern society defines it.

That was predictable.




Why not? (Seriously. Why not?)

Originally posted by UKR
Well, I wouldn't call Canada a free country, what with racism being illegal and punishable and all. I guess this country's government doesn't consider freedom important compared to political correctness. If fascists hate freedom, then Canada is certainly run by fascists. The only way racists should be able to go to jail is if they physically harm someone or cause property damage. Racism should be legalized...not marijuana or gay marriage.

So it's time to oppress the blacks the gays and the hippies? That seems pretty bad too.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
So have Canada and America and about every country in the world. Almost every one had fascism, that doesn't make them fascist countries. Your point is non existant. Russia was never a fascist country. To claim otherwise is ignorant of history.

And the fact you hate Putin for whatever reason, doesn't make Russia fascist. I don't like Bush, Obama and I hate both Clintons but that doesn't make America fascist nor any less of a democracy....by what modern society defines it.

My point is not nonexistent because you do not understand it. Don't be absurd. Not every country in the world has had some form of fascism within their government. I was just clarifying that Russia did not go without a form of fascism inside of their country. It's a simple concept to grasp, really. I wasn't arguing with you when I posted that link. I figured it was quite an interesting fact.

Wait, where did I say I hated Putin? Can you repost that for me?

And you have the gall to claim I'm ignorant?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That was predictable.




I've just reported you for stalking. (It sounds silly, I know) Every thread I go in, you're there to misinterpret my posts as trolling. It's getting a little overboard now. Or wait, did you use your startling intellect to read through the lines of my first post in this thread (Which was a link, may I remind you) to cleverly figure out I was a troll like you did on the last occassion?

Stop stepping on my heels and create some distance between us.

I'd better stop and clarify:

Forum Ninja, do you mean this as harmless hyperbole or are you intentionally misstating our level of interaction? I am curious, you see, because I don't believe that I have responded to you since I put you on ignore. To say that I have "misrepresented your posts" in "every thread" is, at best, a startling overstatement, and at worst an outright lie.


Anyway, calling a moderator's post a 'condescending rampage based on an assumption' is an ad hominem attack, and a foolish one at that. That her argument was intended to rebut a point that you implied (very, very strongly) does not make her points less valid. That you seem to be incapable of communicating your true meaning in any on-topic post you make (relying instead on smug off topic rants ) indicates that you simply are not very good at this. Perhaps it would help everyone if you posted some sort of indicator in your initial post in any given thread that says exactly what your position is?

Example:


You could simply answer the question or discussion topic with some sort of a thesis statement. That wouldn't be much trouble and it would instantly protect you from the misunderstandings that you claim to want to avoid.

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
My point is not nonexistent because you do not understand it. Don't be absurd. Not every country in the world has had some form of fascism within their government. I was just clarifying that Russia did not go without a form of fascism inside of their country. It's a simple concept to grasp, really. I wasn't arguing with you when I posted that link. I figured it was quite an interesting fact.

Wait, where did I say I hated Putin? Can you repost that for me?

And you have the gall to claim I'm ignorant?



I've just reported you for stalking. (It sounds silly, I know) Every thread I go in, you're there to misinterpret my posts as trolling. It's getting a little overboard now. Or wait, did you use your startling intellect to read through the lines of my first post in this thread (Which was a link, may I remind you) to cleverly figure out I was a troll like you did on the last occassion?

Stop stepping on my heels and create some distance between us.

You seem to lack comprehension. I never named you ignorant, but stated that calling Russia fascist is ignorant of history. Which it is.
Equating dictatorship with fascism is also ignorant.
You identified with that post.

Also, your point is non existent. You presented a link from Wikipedia stating that Russia had a minor fascist party as a reply to the discussion that Russia was fascist.

By your logic, Canada, UK, America, France were also fascist. Which frankly is an insult to all those countries which tirelessly fought against Fascism.
Certain countries listed above STILL have fascist parties, are they fascist? No.

Therefore, you have no point. You were just trolling with wikipedia, making a smart ass comment.

Originally posted by Forum Ninja
Well, they're not fascist. You kind of missed my point entirely. I just wanted to clarify that Russia has not gone without fascism. Oh, I'm not counting Putin's subliminally fascist Russia either.

You should have asked me to elaborate instead of going on a condescending rampage based on an assumption.

Problem is you didn't actually initially make any point. You just posted a link with no explanation after quoting someone, which generally means that you are retorting what they said with the information from said link, implying that they are wrong.

The fault alone is yours, you should have clarified what you meant. If your point was simply that a small fascist party existed at some point in the massive landmass that is Russia despite it being irrelevant to the discussion, you should have made that clear.

Originally posted by UKR


What would the world situation be if the Soviet Union hadn't fallen?

There wouldn't be a Germany.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You seem to lack comprehension. I never named you ignorant, but stated that calling Russia fascist is ignorant of history. Which it is.
Equating dictatorship with fascism is also ignorant.
You identified with that post.

Also, your point is non existent. You presented a link from Wikipedia stating that Russia had a minor fascist party as a reply to the discussion that Russia was fascist.

By your logic, Canada, UK, America, France were also fascist. Which frankly is an insult to all those countries which tirelessly fought against Fascism.
Certain countries listed above STILL have fascist parties, are they fascist? No.

Therefore, you have no point. You were just trolling with wikipedia, making a smart ass comment.

No, a link cannot be sarcastic. Is English your first language? To clarify (Before another assumption is made) that is a genuine question. Just because something wasn't there does not mean you can logically assume I was sarcastic. Really?

I never called Russia fascist. Why would you even hint I was ignorant at any point?

"Nonexistent" is one word.

Here is the purpose of the link I posted (Again): I posted the link to point out that Russia had not gone with a fascist party. It's pretty simple when you explain it enough times. I made that clear. Your friends, Backfire and Red Nemesis, do not seem to grasp this either. They assume I posted after you negatively. If I did, how so? I posted a single link.

By my logic? How did my logic indicate that the entirety of Canada, America or even Russia was fascist? Russia wasn't. They had a fascist party, yes! Was that missing from the link I posted?

This is the last time I'm going over this and then I simply won't post again. There is only so many times I repeat myself. You have no need to debate for the sake of it. I made my intentions clear because you interpreted them incorrectly.

The only issue I'm having is that you were automatically condescending towards me. And why? You assumed my intentions were ill-mannered. They were not. If I posted the link with an awfully snide remark or something, it would be different. I didn't.



I didn't make a point? Did I not explain it properly? This could be my fault but I seem to recall listing the reason as to why I posted the link. More than once.

Wait, It generally means I'm retorting?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retort

I wasn't retorting. How can I possibly imply someone is wrong with a link? If I posted a link containing an article with fascism being utilized in Russia's government, that would be different.



You're right here and I agree with you. I should have made it clear. Ask yourself this, though. Do you believe lil bitchiness (As a moderator) should have jumped to a conclusion and assumed I was negative with my post? She was quite condescending. That's totally unfair, especially considering she didn't bother to ask me what the intent of my post was. Actually, I've explained to her and she still believes it was some form of trolling. That's absurd.

I think the Cold War would have fizzled out eventually unless the government kept using it as an excuse to experiment with new weaponry or rival the USSR in something, anything. The American and Russian people may have just grown tired of it, feeling like there was always an atomic bomb hanging just over their heads.