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Pein vs akatsuki and the Sannin.

Pein vs

Deidara
Itachi
Zetsu
Hidan
Kakuzu
Sasori
Kisame
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Orochimaru

Who wins? Bloodlust is on and the characters dont know about nagato or anything like that.

Akatsuki and the Sannin is who I'm voting for here.

Um, lol?

Team in a stomp.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Um, lol?

Team in a stomp.

This thread is in anticipation of Pains Chibaku tensei move . From the spoilers it looked like some sort of blackhole and seemed to be taking out the six tails. If its really that powerful then i hardly think that he will get stomped by this group of people.

Originally posted by Naija boy
This thread is in anticipation of Pains Chibaku tensei move . From the spoilers it looked like some sort of blackhole and seemed to be taking out the six tails. If its really that powerful then i hardly think that he will get stomped by this group of people. You have one guy who can level city blocks with his bombs. There is another who has more poison attacks than you can count, each one if it hits you is lethal. Itachi has three cheap moves that can severely hinder Pain at worst and one shot him at best. Zetsu...Eats people. Hidan himself is no slouch in close combat and if he gets some of Pain's blood he can kill any body. Kakuzu can entangle bodies and rip out their hearts and can fire several different elemental attacks. Kisame has powerful Water Jutsu which are difficult to avoid and is physically more adept than any Pain body. Jiraiya has Sage Mode, and can take on one body at least on his own. Orochimaru at his peak has several powerful moves that can injure Pain severly. Tsunade hits hard, and with all of the other people fighting him, can get some shots in.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
You have one guy who can level city blocks with his bombs. There is another who has more poison attacks than you can count, each one if it hits you is lethal. Itachi has three cheap moves that can severely hinder Pain at worst and one shot him at best. Zetsu...Eats people. Hidan himself is no slouch in close combat and if he gets some of Pain's blood he can kill any body. Kakuzu can entangle bodies and rip out their hearts and can fire several different elemental attacks. Kisame has powerful Water Jutsu which are difficult to avoid and is physically more adept than any Pain body. Jiraiya has Sage Mode, and can take on one body at least on his own. Orochimaru at his peak has several powerful moves that can injure Pain severly. Tsunade hits hard, and with all of the other people fighting him, can get some shots in.

None of their moves are as fast or as effective as Pains. Pain could use shinra tensei to one shot Deidara and any other non immortal like akatsuki in virtually one hit similar to what he did to the Sage frogs. Sasori will be virtually useless cuz he will be poisoning all ready dead bodies. Shinra tensei could also very likely one shot him Not only that but Pain could likely deflect most of his attacks anyhow. I havent really seen much from Zetsu so i cant say but Shinra tensei should likely finish him off as well. absorbing Pain can absorb most energy based jutsus and make Kakuzu much less effective. Then there is the Robot looking pein who could fire missles and explosive projectiles that would also cause problems. Then there is the pain who summons things and could summon loads of monsters or whatever just to run interference. Jiraiya sage mode isnt naruto sage mode and he lost to Pain without Godrealm doing much of anything. Then there is Itachi who is indeed powerful but pain has shown some good resistance to powerful genjutsu already. then there are the durability issues as he is also a candidate for one shotting with shinra tensei. then with his new move that also seems to be crazy powerul

Im not saying Pain definitely wins or that he even does win at all just that its not as lopsided as one may initially think.

Well, Kisame could just drown him, and Itachi could take every Shinra Tensei with Susanoo.

Well Since pain as 6 bodies. Then he should have enough holes on him in order for Akatsuki and Sannins to rape and get full penetration at the same time.

Team in a rapestomp. And judging by the spoilers its a sealing jutsu that surrounds the target in a earth supposedly.

Well, the Yahiko Pain can fly so he should just be able to stay out of range and attack with Shinra Tensei non-stop.

Team easily..

So eh, how does the team fair against Chibaku tensei?

They die.

Except for Hidan. But he screams for a long, long time

Originally posted by KingD19
Well, Kisame could just drown him, and Itachi could take every Shinra Tensei with Susanoo. Drown dead bodies? That'll work.

But Jiraya, Itachi, Oro and Kisame against Pein...They may be able to win if they can survive long enough not to get smushed between rocks. Most of the rest are non-factors. If they can split the bodies up they may have a chance. If not Pein breaks their bones with Shinra Tensei then crushes them with Chibaku Tensei while the other bodies counter anything else being done while he gets close enough to use it.

Itachi alone has a good chance of making it a draw against Pein, though Susanoo is a kamikaze move (according to the databook) it has some insane durability and offense feats.

Itachi - 0/10
Draw - 6/10
Pein 4/10

Would be my guess.

Jiraiya could take on 3 bodies, I'm sure the remaining 3 could be handled by the rest.

Susanoo is pretty much stationary. What will stop Deva Pein from simply flying out of it's sword's reach?

There is really no way itachi alone can beat Pain. Yahiko pain can fly and dodge susano and once Itachi has used it its pretty much over for him as he wont be able to use many more useful moves without risking death via overchakra usage. Shinra tensei would easily finish him off. Chibaku tensei itself could probably take out the entire field.

Pain is not going to beat all of these ninja at the same time. Each of the opponents he is facing has the ability to take out 1-3 bodies. Look at all of the attacks Sasori alone has. Not to mention Deidara's bomb spamming,Hidan's immortality and Kakuzu's elemental prowess.

Orochimaru and Jiraya together would most likely be a major challenge.

This time Jiraya won't lose an arm by standing around 'n chilling.

Originally posted by yungz22
Pain is not going to beat all of these ninja at the same time. Each of the opponents he is facing has the ability to take out 1-3 bodies. Look at all of the attacks Sasori alone has. Not to mention Deidara's bomb spamming,Hidan's immortality and Kakuzu's elemental prowess.
So what happens when:

A. Deidara's bombs just get pulled right back to him with Bansho Tenin and he dies in the explosion.

B. Hidan can't reach Pein because he can fly, and gets buried in ruble from an extra-size Shinra Tensei.

C. Kakuzu can't reach him either and just gets buffeted around helplessly.

All of Pain's bodies but Yahiko are fodder.

Yahiko cannot take this team.

Pain stated that Jiraiya alone would have beaten him had it not been for Pain's secret. Considering he's got the backing of most of the big guns of the Naruto Verse, Pain goes down.

You're over estimating Pain a little too much ...even his Chibaku Tensei wouldn't get everyone...and the other bodies are pointless, they were beaten by Naruto and would be beaten here.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
All of Pain's bodies but Yahiko are fodder.

Yahiko cannot take this team.
Most of this team couldn't even reach Yahiko. Also the absorbing Pein and Summoning Pein gave Jiraiya tons of trouble so I wouldn't underestimate them either.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Most of this team couldn't even reach Yahiko. Also the absorbing Pein and Summoning Pein gave Jiraiya tons of trouble so I wouldn't underestimate them either.

Yahiko's ability has a major achilles heel though, he can only use each 'tensei' with 5 second intervals.

Those two were done in pretty easily, Deva path is really the only one of Pain's bodies that stands any chance, however slim, against an onslaught of this kind. Make no mistake, he will bring down a few, but he can't against this team, unless they are focused on fighting each other rather than Pain.

The only reason he had trouble with those two imo, was because his main focus was figuring out his opponent.

but he can't against this team, unless they are focused on fighting each other rather than Pain.

should be but he can't win

Apologize for the double post

How do you suppose they are going to hit Pein? Seriously, how? He can just hover out of their range. Then his "five second" limit won't matter since he can attack with impunity.

How do you suppose he's going to keep his eyes on all of them at once when his other bodies are out?

There's quite possibly the most powerful genjutsu user and we know nothing about how the Rinnengan fares up against genjutsu, someone who can fly on a clay dragon, a person who can summon snakes, a person who can summon toads, a person who can use the abilities of the third kazekage indirectly. Easy ways on reaching and inflicting pain on Pain.
There's no way he'll be able to take them all out quickly enough. If they all focus on him after his bodies are out, Yahiko will lose.

Pain would use Shinra Tensei once to block Sasori's volley of needles. Then his second volley of needles would hit him. At least grounding him. Where he will be raped.

And while he is doing this, what is stopping the others from attacking him?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Pain stated that Jiraiya alone would have beaten him had it not been for Pain's secret. Considering he's got the backing of most of the big guns of the Naruto Verse, Pain goes down.

You're over estimating Pain a little too much ...even his Chibaku Tensei wouldn't get everyone...and the other bodies are pointless, they were beaten by Naruto and would be beaten here.

If Jiraiya had known were Nagato was of course he would have beaten him. In this scenario nobody knows where nagato is so its irrelevant. Please explain how any of them escape chibaku tensei if he decides to do it at the start of the fight.

But seriously if Yahiko simply hovers far above the ground and uses a fairly big Shinra tensei(not the size of his konoha wrecking one, but the battlefield isnt that big anyways) he could one shot most of the team He was able to nearly kill three of the huge frogs with it. Guys like, Deidara,Sasori,Itachi,Tsunade.Jiraiya would all be killed by that sort of force. Also save a few people he would be way out of range of most of their attacks. Then also bodies like summoning pain could wreak alot of havok with numerous summons running all over the place causing interference and giving Yahiko more time to Shinra tensei the field.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So what happens when:

A. Deidara's bombs just get pulled right back to him with Bansho Tenin and he dies in the explosion.

B. Hidan can't reach Pein because he can fly, and gets buried in ruble from an extra-size Shinra Tensei.

C. Kakuzu can't reach him either and just gets buffeted around helplessly.

From what we have seen when they are all together God realm doesnt fight unless he is by himself. God realm also uses thes techniques in intervals he cant do them consistently. All they would have to do is make Sasori attack him with senbon going all around him. God realm would deflect that then during the interval with which he cant attack.Deidara or anyone who has any long range techniques take him out.

Originally posted by Naija boy
But seriously if Yahiko simply hovers far above the ground and uses a fairly big Shinra tensei(not the size of his konoha wrecking one, but the battlefield isnt that big anyways) he could one shot most of the team He was able to nearly kill three of the huge frogs with it. Guys like, Deidara,Sasori,Itachi,Tsunade.Jiraiya would all be killed by that sort of force. Also save a few people he would be way out of range of most of their attacks. Then also bodies like summoning pain could wreak alot of havok with numerous summons running all over the place causing interference and giving Yahiko more time to Shinra tensei the field.

Also Peins summons are not that strong have you forgotten about manda and the rest of oro's snakes along with Gamabunta and his crew. They would raped everyone of peins summons.

Hold on is this akatsuki including Taka....Seriously. Itachi hits deva with amaterasu while he is in cool down.

Originally posted by Naija boy
If Jiraiya had known were Nagato was of course he would have beaten him. In this scenario nobody knows where nagato is so its irrelevant. Please explain how any of them escape chibaku tensei if he decides to do it at the start of the fight.

I was merely bringing up a point by using that fact , and that point was that he and the rest of those guys could bring down Pain physically.

Well, people seem to think that hovering out of range will avoid most of the team's attacks, so moving out of range will suffice. Not all characters would escape, that I'll agree to.

Please explain how Pain is going to avoid Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu if Itachi decides to use it at the start of the fight.

Coming up with tactics the characters could use seems to be fairly pointless, given that it could go on and on.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Please explain how Pain is going to avoid Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu if Itachi decides to use it at the start of the fight.
Well for Tsukiyomi you have to lock eyes so that won't work on a flying guy, and he can just Shinra the fire away, or have the absorbing Pain absorb it.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I was merely bringing up a point by using that fact , and that point was that he and the rest of those guys could bring down Pain physically.

Well, people seem to think that hovering out of range will avoid most of the team's attacks, so moving out of range will suffice. Not all characters would escape, that I'll agree to.

Please explain how Pain is going to avoid Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu if Itachi decides to use it at the start of the fight.

Coming up with tactics the characters could use seems to be fairly pointless, given that it could go on and on.

The point was irrelevant. Pain saying that if Jiraiya used new his secret (new were nagato was) he would would have won has no basis here as nagato is not even in the scenario and none of them will know his whereabouts.

They cant move out of range because of how wide its range is. Also it attracts things towards the ball so even when they are trying to move out of range they will be drawn in and crushed.

Pain has shown good resistance to genjutusu (breaking out of the frogs sages ultimate genjutsu) as well as having some form of genjutsu himself. Its questionable if Tsukuyumi will work on him at all. Also the Pain bodies are just puppets, with nagato controlling their chakra flow, he could easily stop/restart it etc in order to stop the genjutsu. As for amaterasu, there are six Pain bodies which can be revived continuously. As long as Itachi does not hit the reviving Pain (he has no way of knowing which one it is) the pain bodies can be revived. also if itachi tries to use amaterasu or Tsukuyumi he is making himself vulnerable for the rest of the fight as he will be greatly weakened.

The main thing here is that Pain can oneshot alot of members of the team simultaneously with a fairly powerful shinra tensei and kill evryone on the team with chibaku tensei. His ability to stay out of range of most of their attacks also reduces the likelyhood of him being hit at all.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well for Tsukiyomi you have to lock eyes so that won't work on a flying guy, and he can just Shinra the fire away, or have the absorbing Pain absorb it.


Pain's Shinra Tensei seems to affect only physical objects, fire, is in a sense, non physical.
The absorbing pain would most likely be caught up trying to absorb another attack.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Pain's Shinra Tensei seems to affect only physical objects, fire, is in a sense, non physical.
The absorbing pain would most likely be caught up trying to absorb another attack.

Not at all. Pain used his shinra tensei to defelct ninjutsu attacks many times

They dont have to lock eyes. The sharingan just has to be in their site.

Originally posted by Csdabest
They dont have to lock eyes. The sharingan just has to be in their site.
Regardless, it's not going to happen when Pein is to high to even see Itachi clearly in the first place.

BTW, Shinra Tensei can block non-physical attacks, for instance the rasenshurikan.

Originally posted by Naija boy
The point was irrelevant. Pain saying that if Jiraiya used new his secret (new were nagato was) he would would have won has no basis here as nagato is not even in the scenario and none of them will know his whereabouts.

Do you skip over sentences or something? I never said it was a point. I said it was a fact. If knowing the secret is enough to beat him, chances are that having a lot of the top fighters in the Naruto verse is enough.
If Nagato's not in this scenario, who the heck is controlling the bodies exactly?

Originally posted by Naija boy
They cant move out of range because of how wide its range is. Also it attracts things towards the ball so even when they are trying to move out of range they will be drawn in and crushed.

What if some characters are already out of range? Besides, the ball doesn't seem to take effect at least until it reaches the air


Originally posted by Naija boy
Pain has shown good resistance to genjutusu (breaking out of the frogs sages ultimate genjutsu) as well as having some form of genjutsu himself. Its questionable if Tsukuyumi will work on him at all. Also the Pain bodies are just puppets, with nagato controlling their chakra flow, he could easily stop/restart it etc in order to stop the genjutsu. As for amaterasu, there are six Pain bodies which can be revived continuously. As long as Itachi does not hit the reviving Pain (he has no way of knowing which one it is) the pain bodies can be revived. also if itachi tries to use amaterasu or Tsukuyumi he is making himself vulnerable for the rest of the fight as he will be greatly weakened.

He never broke out of the genjutsu, read the chapter again. The fact that you think Tsukiyomi might not have an effect is laughable.

Originally posted by Naija boy The main thing here is that Pain can oneshot alot of members of the team simultaneously with a fairly powerful shinra tensei and kill evryone on the team with chibaku tensei. His ability to stay out of range of most of their attacks also reduces the likelyhood of him being hit at all.

Shinra cannot one shot a lot of the members, unless for some reason they are sticking to each other like velcro.
Chibaku's a given one shot against Sasori, and a few others. Also, Deva Path doesn't use Chibaku unless the other bodies are down, unless the other bodies are somehow resistant to gravity. That rules out Chibaku being used at the beginning.
He can only stay out of range for so long, many of the fighters have the ability to reach him.





And one other factor that no one seems to take in is that these guys can also work as a team and work strategically towards bringing down Pain. If Naija had said that these guys couldn't work together, then that would mean Pain takes the majority.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Do you skip over sentences or something? I never said it was a point. I said it was a fact. If knowing the secret is enough to beat him, chances are that having a lot of the top fighters in the Naruto verse is enough.
If Nagato's not in this scenario, who the heck is controlling the bodies exactly?



What if some characters are already out of range? Besides, the ball doesn't seem to take effect at least until it reaches the air




He never broke out of the genjutsu, read the chapter again. The fact that you think Tsukiyomi might not have an effect is laughable.

Originally posted by Naija boy The main thing here is that Pain can oneshot alot of members of the team simultaneously with a fairly powerful shinra tensei and kill evryone on the team with chibaku tensei. His ability to stay out of range of most of their attacks also reduces the likelyhood of him being hit at all.

Shinra cannot one shot a lot of the members, unless for some reason they are sticking to each other like velcro.
Chibaku's a given one shot against Sasori, and a few others. Also, Deva Path doesn't use Chibaku unless the other bodies are down, unless the other bodies are somehow resistant to gravity. That rules out Chibaku being used at the beginning.
He can only stay out of range for so long, many of the fighters have the ability to reach him.





And one other factor that no one seems to take in is that these guys can also work as a team and work strategically towards bringing down Pain. If Naija had said that these guys couldn't work together, then that would mean Pain takes the majority.

you are exactly right. Deidara, Jiraiya, Oro have shown very good analytical skills

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Do you skip over sentences or something? I never said it was a point. I said it was a fact. If knowing the secret is enough to beat him, chances are that having a lot of the top fighters in the Naruto verse is enough.
If Nagato's not in this scenario, who the heck is controlling the bodies exactly?


lulz.No i didnt skip over anything. Ur reasoning simply makes absolutely no sense. Knowing the secret is enough to beat precisely him because it would circumvent the need to actually fight the pain bodies and would focus on destroying the single weak controller who is nagato. How the hell do u relate that to the top fighters being able to defeat Pain? The events are in no way mutually inclusive. The one enabling factor in the Jiraiya incident was the lack of need to actually fight Pains bodies. And now u want to use that as a premise for this team defeating Pain when they would actually need to fight him? Retarded.

Further Nagato wont be in the battlefield. So hence he IS NOT in this scenario. He will be controlling the Pains from and outside location just like he does in the manga. In addition the combatants will have NO knowledge of nagato's existence as the controller of the bodies.



How can some characters already be out of range? Given the size of the regular KMC battlefield is fixed, with .5km separating the characters, They will be unable to get out of range of the attack without battle field removing themselves which would constitue a Pain victory.




Tsukuyumi is a genjutsu and like all genjutsu it is based on chakra control. Pain bodies are simply puppets of nagatos in which he regulates their chakra thru chakra transmitters. If nagato cuts off the chakra flow to any of the bodies their is nothing for the genjutsu to work on. Further itachi wont even be able to get the genjutsu on Yahiko pain who will be way above them and far out of range of Tsukuyumi. Not only that but if he uses Tsukuyumi at all in that match it will have a far more adverse effect on him than Pain as any of the Pain bodies can be easily revived while Itachi will be greatly weakened and even more vulnerable for the rest of the fight.




lolwut? Shinra was able to level the village of konoha. It has a very wide range. The distance between combatant on KMC is .5 kilometres well within the within its range. Pain wont have to use a Shinra tensei even close to the level he need to level the village in order to oneshot alot of this team. They dont need to be close to each other as its wide range will enable it to get any of them in different places on the battle field. Moreover, i was just throwing out chibaku tensei as one sure fire way of pain winning. Even if he doesnt use at the beginning of the fight its a way to takes the team out undoubtedly. Also, each of the pain bodies are just puppets and hence are not truly important. At the very worst they can be revived. Pain can stay well out of range of theirhis. He wont even need to come into their limited range to affect them.



Yes they can work together and hence this not a stomp for either side. However Pain still has numerous advantages which if used properly can give him the win.

Originally posted by Naija boy
lulz.No i didnt skip over anything. Ur reasoning simply makes absolutely no sense. Knowing the secret is enough to beat precisely him because it would circumvent the need to actually fight the pain bodies and would focus on destroying the single weak controller who is nagato. How the hell do u relate that to the top fighters being able to defeat Pain? The events are in no way mutually inclusive. The one enabling factor in the Jiraiya incident was the lack of need to actually fight Pains bodies. And now u want to use that as a premise for this team defeating Pain when they would actually need to fight him? Retarded.

Further Nagato wont be in the battlefield. So hence he IS NOT in this scenario. He will be controlling the Pains from and outside location just like he does in the manga. In addition the combatants will have NO knowledge of nagato's existence as the controller of the bodies.



How can some characters already be out of range? Given the size of the regular KMC battlefield is fixed, with .5km separating the characters, They will be unable to get out of range of the attack without battle field removing themselves which would constitue a Pain victory.




Tsukuyumi is a genjutsu and like all genjutsu it is based on chakra control. Pain bodies are simply puppets of nagatos in which he regulates their chakra thru chakra transmitters. If nagato cuts off the chakra flow to any of the bodies their is nothing for the genjutsu to work on. Further itachi wont even be able to get the genjutsu on Yahiko pain who will be way above them and far out of range of Tsukuyumi. Not only that but if he uses Tsukuyumi at all in that match it will have a far more adverse effect on him than Pain as any of the Pain bodies can be easily revived while Itachi will be greatly weakened and even more vulnerable for the rest of the fight.




lolwut? Shinra was able to level the village of konoha. It has a very wide range. The distance between combatant on KMC is .5 kilometres well within the within its range. Pain wont have to use a Shinra tensei even close to the level he need to level the village in order to oneshot alot of this team. They dont need to be close to each other as its wide range will enable it to get any of them in different places on the battle field. Moreover, i was just throwing out chibaku tensei as one sure fire way of pain winning. Even if he doesnt use at the beginning of the fight its a way to takes the team out undoubtedly. Also, each of the pain bodies are just puppets and hence are not truly important. At the very worst they can be revived. Pain can stay well out of range of theirhis. He wont even need to come into their limited range to affect them.



Yes they can work together and hence this not a stomp for either side. However Pain still has numerous advantages which if used properly can give him the win.



Heh, I'm not going to respond to such a long post >_>...I concede defeat on that basis >_>
And I misunderstood when you said Nagato was not in the scenario, I apologize. The 0.5 km thing, why doesn't it apply to the vertical range?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Heh, I'm not going to respond to such a long post >_>...I concede defeat on that basis >_>
And I misunderstood when you said Nagato was not in the scenario, I apologize. The 0.5 km thing, why doesn't it apply to the vertical range?

Well i didnt make the rule so i dont know. But its has to do with a horizontal distance of .5 kilometres within the the combatants line of site.

I think that's the STARTING distance, not the limit.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I think that's the STARTING distance, not the limit.

Hmm, I always assumed that those were the boundaries hence thats were they start from.

Still just to make things clear they fight in an open 10 acre field.

Just a question about the narrative . . .

If Pein is more powerful than his entire organization combined, why did he bother forming the Akatsuki?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Just a question about the narrative . . .

If Pein is more powerful than his entire organization combined, why did he bother forming the Akatsuki? He didn't Madara is the creator of Akatsuki. Pein is just the figurehead of it. The one everybody except the living Uchiha, Konan, and Nagato think created Akatsuki. Plus he needs so many people to do the extraction jutsu. Also maybe Madara doesn't know his true power. Or maybe Madara thinks his secret, if ever found out, would be a huge weakness and so that it doesn't use some of the strongest people he can find even if they are weaker than Pein. Then their is the whole leaders of evil groups are usually much more powerful than their followers. Not always sure but.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Just a question about the narrative . . .

If Pein is more powerful than his entire organization combined, why did he bother forming the Akatsuki?
They have unique abilities that are very useful in fights other than this one.

Originally posted by Naija boy
lulz.No i didnt skip over anything. Ur reasoning simply makes absolutely no sense. Knowing the secret is enough to beat precisely him because it would circumvent the need to actually fight the pain bodies and would focus on destroying the single weak controller who is nagato. How the hell do u relate that to the top fighters being able to defeat Pain? The events are in no way mutually inclusive. The one enabling factor in the Jiraiya incident was the lack of need to actually fight Pains bodies. And now u want to use that as a premise for this team defeating Pain when they would actually need to fight him? Retarded.

Further Nagato wont be in the battlefield. So hence he IS NOT in this scenario. He will be controlling the Pains from and outside location just like he does in the manga. In addition the combatants will have NO knowledge of nagato's existence as the controller of the bodies.



How can some characters already be out of range? Given the size of the regular KMC battlefield is fixed, with .5km separating the characters, They will be unable to get out of range of the attack without battle field removing themselves which would constitue a Pain victory.




Tsukuyumi is a genjutsu and like all genjutsu it is based on chakra control. Pain bodies are simply puppets of nagatos in which he regulates their chakra thru chakra transmitters. If nagato cuts off the chakra flow to any of the bodies their is nothing for the genjutsu to work on. Further itachi wont even be able to get the genjutsu on Yahiko pain who will be way above them and far out of range of Tsukuyumi. Not only that but if he uses Tsukuyumi at all in that match it will have a far more adverse effect on him than Pain as any of the Pain bodies can be easily revived while Itachi will be greatly weakened and even more vulnerable for the rest of the fight.




lolwut? Shinra was able to level the village of konoha. It has a very wide range. The distance between combatant on KMC is .5 kilometres well within the within its range. Pain wont have to use a Shinra tensei even close to the level he need to level the village in order to oneshot alot of this team. They dont need to be close to each other as its wide range will enable it to get any of them in different places on the battle field. Moreover, i was just throwing out chibaku tensei as one sure fire way of pain winning. Even if he doesnt use at the beginning of the fight its a way to takes the team out undoubtedly. Also, each of the pain bodies are just puppets and hence are not truly important. At the very worst they can be revived. Pain can stay well out of range of theirhis. He wont even need to come into their limited range to affect them.



Yes they can work together and hence this not a stomp for either side. However Pain still has numerous advantages which if used properly can give him the win.

you keep talking about Pein flying When have you seen pein just strat flying during a fight or at the begining of the fight only time you see him flying is when he did the huge Shinra Tensei. Also Tsunade was right in the middle of that attack and she wasnt taken out so it's not a one hit kill. Each of peins bodies except God realm can easily be defeated in a 1v1 so all they have to do is dispatch of them and then gang up on God realm who by the way doesnt fight unless his teammates have been defeated.

Also you fail to see that God realm has no real speed feats so Itachi should have no problem burning him with Amaterasu. Also he could do that during one of God's intervals leavin God defenseless

Originally posted by yungz22
you keep talking about Pein flying When have you seen pein just strat flying during a fight or at the begining of the fight only time you see him flying is when he did the huge Shinra Tensei. Also Tsunade was right in the middle of that attack and she wasnt taken out so it's not a one hit kill. Each of peins bodies except God realm can easily be defeated in a 1v1 so all they have to do is dispatch of them and then gang up on God realm who by the way doesnt fight unless his teammates have been defeated.

Also you fail to see that God realm has no real speed feats so Itachi should have no problem burning him with Amaterasu. Also he could do that during one of God's intervals leavin God defenseless

Bloodlust is on and the characters will be doing whatever they can to kill their opponents and fighting to the best of their abilities. Tsunade had to used her stored up chakra to protect all the villagers so it only makes sense that she protected herself as well. An attack that can oneshot gamabunta and his crew will kill any human in naruto that isnt immortal in some way. In regards to pain not fighting until his bodies have been defeated, he was fighting kakashi ((together with Robot pain)while his other bodies were rampaging thru konoha and and was fighting naruto while absorbing Pain was still alive. Regardless they will be fighting to the best of their abilities here.

Itachi is one of those who will get oneshotted by shinra tensei. If he gets amatarasu off before pain uses shinra tensei, it will be detrimental to him as Pain will dispel it and Itachi would be drastically weaker.

Even if he is hit with Amaterasu all he needs to do is wait five seconds and then get it off him. Weaker people have survived Amaterasu that long. Or he could fly to the absorbing Pain and have it off in a flash.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Pein vs akatsuki and the Sannin.

Pein vs

Deidara
Itachi
Zetsu
Hidan
Kakuzu
Sasori
Kisame
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Orochimaru

Who wins? Bloodlust is on and the characters dont know about nagato or anything like that. Pein specifically said that if Jiraiya new the secret, he would have easily defeated Pain with no trouble. He obviously figured out that they were being controlled like puppets. While the others fought he would have figured it out and go **** Nagato up. I give it to team Akatsuki and the Sannin.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Even if he is hit with Amaterasu all he needs to do is wait five seconds and then get it off him. Weaker people have survived Amaterasu that long. Or he could fly to the absorbing Pain and have it off in a flash. the damage would already be done. And it blows what around him not on him. If so it would have bloown off his clothes a long time ago

Originally posted by Csdabest
the damage would already be done. And it blows what around him not on him. If so it would have bloown off his clothes a long time ago That depends. He may be able to dodge it, and if he isn't hit square on it seems to have much less of an effect. And if Karin was able to survive an indirect hit, a dead body of Pein's could survive to get to Absorbing Pein and get him to absorb it off...and be perfectly fine as it wouldn't hurt him at all.

Pain gets overwhelmed, too many high tiers of Narutoverse here.

Originally posted by Csdabest
the damage would already be done. And it blows what around him not on him. If so it would have bloown off his clothes a long time ago
He can choose what things to repel.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Bloodlust is on and the characters will be doing whatever they can to kill their opponents and fighting to the best of their abilities. Tsunade had to used her stored up chakra to protect all the villagers so it only makes sense that she protected herself as well. An attack that can oneshot gamabunta and his crew will kill any human in naruto that isnt immortal in some way. In regards to pain not fighting until his bodies have been defeated, he was fighting kakashi ((together with Robot pain)while his other bodies were rampaging thru konoha and and was fighting naruto while absorbing Pain was still alive. Regardless they will be fighting to the best of their abilities here.

Itachi is one of those who will get oneshotted by shinra tensei. If he gets amatarasu off before pain uses shinra tensei, it will be detrimental to him as Pain will dispel it and Itachi would be drastically weaker.
OK if pein uses the big shinra tensei tsunade can do the same thing to protect her teamates. then as a result God realm would be defeated because after dong an attack like that he has a longer recharge time.

Originally posted by yungz22
OK if pein uses the big shinra tensei tsunade can do the same thing to protect her teamates. then as a result God realm would be defeated because after dong an attack like that he has a longer recharge time.

Or he could just do a couple smaller ones and use the other bodies' powers to stall for time when recharging.

Worse, if he opens with the massive Shinra Tensei it would kill them all because to protect everyone else Tsunade had to summon her slug and then tell it to spread out a channel her power for healing. She certainly wouldn't have time to do that.

Pain gets completely slaughtered.

Originally posted by yungz22
OK if pein uses the big shinra tensei tsunade can do the same thing to protect her teamates. then as a result God realm would be defeated because after dong an attack like that he has a longer recharge time.

Tsunde needs to first summon Katsuyu and then have her distribute it, If Pain does that attack first, there will be no time for such. Also Pain doesnt even need an attack even close to that size to oneshot good portion of the team.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Tsunde needs to first summon Katsuyu and then have her distribute it, If Pain does that attack first, there will be no time for such. Also Pain doesnt even need an attack even close to that size to oneshot good portion of the team.

The key is he wouldn't one shot all of them. whoever survives is going to kill him because of his recharge time. You forget that he is fighting all of the Akatsuki and the Sannin. All of these ninja are both respected and feared in the ninja world. They are not weak. Plus who has pein ever ones shotted other than the fodder ninja kiba and shikamaru and they are weak compared to who they Pein is fighting.

Originally posted by yungz22
The key is he wouldn't one shot all of them. whoever survives is going to kill him because of his recharge time. You forget that he is fighting all of the Akatsuki and the Sannin. All of these ninja are both respected and feared in the ninja world. They are not weak. Plus who has pein ever ones shotted other than the fodder ninja kiba and shikamaru and they are weak compared to who they Pein is fighting. Gamabunta...those other summons. And Gamabunta at the least is above Jiraiya who himself is above most of the others except maybe Itachi who would be an equal at best.

Gamabunta...those other summons. And Gamabunta at the least is above Jiraiya who himself is above most of the others except maybe Itachi who would be an equal at best



Jiraiya is above Itachi, Itachi stated that Kisame and Himself could never beat Jiraiya. Jiraiya is aboce Pain, I believe in the manga Pain himself stated if Jiraiya would of known about the Six Paths of Pain from the beggnig Jiraiya would of beat him. So there is no way Pan could beat the Akatsuki and Sannin together.

Originally posted by yungz22
The key is he wouldn't one shot all of them. whoever survives is going to kill him because of his recharge time. You forget that he is fighting all of the Akatsuki and the Sannin. All of these ninja are both respected and feared in the ninja world. They are not weak. Plus who has pein ever ones shotted other than the fodder ninja kiba and shikamaru and they are weak compared to who they Pein is fighting.

A Kento said he oneshotted Gamabunta and the other Giiant frogs whose durability far>>>>anyone here. Also he wouldnt need to use a shinra tensei even close to as big as the one he used on konoha, so he wont have to recharge his chakra.

Originally posted by Naija boy
A Kento said he oneshotted Gamabunta and the other Giiant frogs whose durability far>>>>anyone here. Also he wouldnt need to use a shinra tensei even close to as big as the one he used on konoha, so he wont have to recharge his chakra.

I would be careful about making such statements, automatically putting Summons above regular Shinobi simply because of their size.

Originally posted by Naija boy
A Kento said he oneshotted Gamabunta and the other Giiant frogs whose durability far>>>>anyone here. Also he wouldnt need to use a shinra tensei even close to as big as the one he used on konoha, so he wont have to recharge his chakra.
he is still going to have to recharge after every tensei or bansho attack he has to recharge.

Originally posted by yungz22
he is still going to have to recharge after every tensei or bansho attack he has to recharge.

He doesnt have to"recharge", there is simply a five second interval before he can use it again.

Originally posted by Naija boy
He doesnt have to"recharge", there is simply a five second interval before he can use it again.

We call that recharging

Originally posted by Naija boy
He doesnt have to"recharge", there is simply a five second interval before he can use it again.
the point is once god realm is recharging he will be beaten he is facing way too many higher level ninja for him not to be.

Originally posted by yungz22
the point is once god realm is recharging he will be beaten he is facing way too many higher level ninja for him not to be.

What? Beaten in five seconds? No way in hell. A single fairly shinra tensei would take out most of the ninja on team two. The few remaining likely wont be able ton get any attacks on him because he is flying and out of their range.They definitely wont be killing him in five seconds.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I would be careful about making such statements, automatically putting Summons above regular Shinobi simply because of their size. Its not because of there size.

Originally posted by Naija boy
What? Beaten in five seconds? No way in hell. A single fairly shinra tensei would take out most of the ninja on team two. The few remaining likely wont be able ton get any attacks on him because he is flying and out of their range.They definitely wont be killing him in five seconds.

Kakashi would have killed god realm had it not been for Demon realm jumping in the way at the last second. I'd say it is possible for ninja that are both faster and stronger than Kakashi to do that. And all of the pople you have fighting here are capable of doing equally as good or maybe even better than Kakashi did. Heck Kakashi would have lasted longer had it not been for his low chakra reserves.

Originally posted by yungz22
Kakashi would have killed god realm had it not been for Demon realm jumping in the way at the last second. I'd say it is possible for ninja that are both faster and stronger than Kakashi to do that. And all of the pople you have fighting here are capable of doing equally as good or maybe even better than Kakashi did. Heck Kakashi would have lasted longer had it not been for his low chakra reserves. You do remember Pein was tied up so he couldn't dodge right? That's the only reason Kakashi nearly got him. Speed nor strength did anything. It was brains that set a trap.

Originally posted by yungz22
Kakashi would have killed god realm had it not been for Demon realm jumping in the way at the last second. I'd say it is possible for ninja that are both faster and stronger than Kakashi to do that. And all of the pople you have fighting here are capable of doing equally as good or maybe even better than Kakashi did. Heck Kakashi would have lasted longer had it not been for his low chakra reserves.

Pain was tied up when that happened. It was all kakashis trap. Further Pain was trying to get naruto's location from Kakashi and hence kept him alive longer than he should have which is what allowed kaakshi to formulate such a plan in the first place. In this scenario however with pain floating in the air out of their reach and able to move around freely, their is no way anything similar will occur

I wouldn't say out of reach as most have long range attacks...but out of range for such a tactic as Kakashi did sure

Tsukiyomi would greatly harm Pain, since its already been shown that Pain doesn't have much resistance against genjutsu. Tsukiyomi being the most powerful of genjutsu spells, working on eye-contact. Pain having shared vision. Perhaps it could affect even Nagato.

well the fact ha jiraya by himself took out 3 of them, makes me think that the team would win easy, especially because tsunade would be there healing everyone, and we dont even know what everyone is capable of in akatsuki

Originally posted by Kento
I wouldn't say out of reach as most have long range attacks...but out of range for such a tactic as Kakashi did sure

Yes but their long range attacks are easily dodgeable from that distance.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Tsukiyomi would greatly harm Pain, since its already been shown that Pain doesn't have much resistance against genjutsu. Tsukiyomi being the most powerful of genjutsu spells, working on eye-contact. Pain having shared vision. Perhaps it could affect even Nagato.

Tsukuyumi harming nagato is just speculation when nagato wont even be in Itachis field of vision. If he uses it on an of the Pain bodies nagato can easily stop the chakra flow in order to break the genjutsu(which is based on the controlling of chakra).

Originally posted by Kento
Its not because of there size.

Can't be because of their feats, because they have none.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Can't be because of their feats, because they have none. It's more if the boss summons were weak why would Oro fear Manda, and why would Jiraiya hate to use Gamabunta because he can't control it. And why would they use giant summons to fight giant summons if they were stronger than said summons. To fight Pein's summon, Jiraiya summoned one of them that was laid out by Shinra Tensei in one-hit also.

Originally posted by Kento
It's more if the boss summons were weak why would Oro fear Manda, and why would Jiraiya hate to use Gamabunta because he can't control it. And why would they use giant summons to fight giant summons if they were stronger than said summons. To fight Pein's summon, Jiraiya summoned one of them that was laid out by Shinra Tensei in one-hit also.

Let's see.

- Manda and Gamabunta are S-rank summons, and they'e the top dogs of their kind. The other frogs Naruto summoned along Gamabunta are not on par with him.

- There are no reason -not- to bring out summons when you're outnumbered and your opponent has a mass of summons. This migth be difficult to comprehend, but it's not.

- Yes, once again, how does this mean that the summons are in any way stronger than the Sannin or Akatsuki?

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Let's see.

- Manda and Gamabunta are S-rank summons, and they'e the top dogs of their kind. The other frogs Naruto summoned along Gamabunta are not on par with him.

- There are no reason -not- to bring out summons when you're outnumbered and your opponent has a mass of summons. This migth be difficult to comprehend, but it's not.

- Yes, once again, how does this mean that the summons are in any way stronger than the Sannin or Akatsuki? Gamabunta was one-shotted.

It's not a mass of summons I'm talking about. I'm talking about just one summon. And one the weaker summons compared to Manda or Gamabunta was wrecking Konoha and the people fighting them couldn't do anything to harm them during the Sound Invasion. It took another summon from Jiraiya to do anything.

Jiraiya is a good bit stronger than most of Akatsuki, and so is Orochimaru. Manda, and Gamabunta are stronger than them. And the one who is more powerful in this fight than Oro, and possibly Jiraiya hardly has any feats to say anything.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Tsukuyumi harming nagato is just speculation when nagato wont even be in Itachis field of vision. If he uses it on an of the Pain bodies nagato can easily stop the chakra flow in order to break the genjutsu(which is based on the controlling of chakra).

Not really, Jiraiya's genjutsu worked perfectly on the bodies. Perhaps he can stop the chakra flow, but he didn't seem to do it vs Jiraiya, and also the big factor here: remember that Tsukiyomi happens instantly, and finishes instantly. Once it lands, it's over.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Not really, Jiraiya's genjutsu worked perfectly on the bodies. Perhaps he can stop the chakra flow, but he didn't seem to do it vs Jiraiya, and also the big factor here: remember that Tsukiyomi happens instantly, and finishes instantly. Once it lands, it's over.

Sasuke did break out of tsukiyomi though, remember Terry.

I still don't think Pain can take all of them at once.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Not really, Jiraiya's genjutsu worked perfectly on the bodies. Perhaps he can stop the chakra flow, but he didn't seem to do it vs Jiraiya, and also the big factor here: remember that Tsukiyomi happens instantly, and finishes instantly. Once it lands, it's over.

He didnt do it against Jiraiya as he was hardly going all out against Jiraiya and was never really in danger during that fight. Plus simply countering the genjutsu in that mannner wouldnt have served for good story development. However there is nothing stopping him from doing it here and we know that once that is done genjutsu has no possible way of working

Also, tsukuyumi being near instant is simply a disadvantage to itachi. It is really quite futile as the bodies are only being animated by Nagato. Unlike jiraiyas genjutsu which actually froze/trapped the bodies in a particular place, Tsukuyumi is centred more on causing psycholoical and physical pain. The bodies however are already dead and so such attacks are null and void. Also because in real time Itachi only does it for a second or two, all it will do is nearly instantly weaken itachi greatly and make him even more vulnerable in this scenario without havin any positive impact. thats if Itachi can even et Tsukuyumi on God realm who could simply hover out of range and oneshot all of them with shinra tensei.

Originally posted by Naija boy
He didnt do it against Jiraiya as he was hardly going all out against Jiraiya and was never really in danger during that fight. Plus simply countering the genjutsu in that mannner wouldnt have served for good story development. However there is nothing stopping him from doing it here and we know that once that is done genjutsu has no possible way of working

Also, tsukuyumi being near instant is simply a disadvantage to itachi. It is really quite futile as the bodies are only being animated by Nagato. Unlike jiraiyas genjutsu which actually froze/trapped the bodies in a particular place, Tsukuyumi is centred more on causing psycholoical and physical pain. The bodies however are already dead and so such attacks are null and void. Also because in real time Itachi only does it for a second or two, all it will do is nearly instantly weaken itachi greatly and make him even more vulnerable in this scenario without havin any positive impact. thats if Itachi can even et Tsukuyumi on God realm who could simply hover out of range and oneshot all of them with shinra tensei.

Why wouldn't the Tsukuyumi hit Nagato and take out all of the bodies in an instant?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Why wouldn't the Tsukuyumi hit Nagato and take out all of the bodies in an instant?

Because he wont make direct eyecontact with nagatos

Originally posted by Naija boy
Because he wont make direct eyecontact with nagatos

pein cant fly forever and he he could do it so freely why did he not fly against naruto. Matter of fact I dont even think God realm can even fly it seemed more like a gravity jump to me. Look at it this way naruto took out the rest of peins bodies in a swift manner what makes you think all of the akatsuki wont do even better. All they have to worry about is God realm and shinra tensei isnt going last kill every last one of these ninja. for goodness sake Itachi's susanoo has the perfect defense and offense. His sword rips out souls.

Akatsuki:
Deidara-Bomb spamm and can fly
Konan-sharp as paper weapons
Itachi-Sharingan and all its wonders
Zetsu-Dont know yet
Kisame-Overwhelming strength and chakra
Kakuzu- overwhelming elemental control and can fly.
Hidan-Immortality and surprisingly good taijutsu skills
Sasori-multiple poison weapons and puppets plus the 3rd kazekage
Tobi/uchiha madara- Greatest sharingan powers we have seen

Sannin:
Jiraiya-Gamabunta and friends, sage mode and the rasengan
Tsunade-extraordinary healing ability
Orochimaru-Manda and friends, near immortal, knows many jutsus including forbidden techniques.

All ninja are easily s class ninja so they know how to use their abilities efficiently.

How can 5 fodder bodies and one strong one deal this overwhlmingly strong team.

Originally posted by yungz22
pein cant fly forever and he he could do it so freely why did he not fly against naruto. Matter of fact I dont even think God realm can even fly it seemed more like a gravity jump to me. Look at it this way naruto took out the rest of peins bodies in a swift manner what makes you think all of the akatsuki wont do even better. All they have to worry about is God realm and shinra tensei isnt going last kill every last one of these ninja. for goodness sake Itachi's susanoo has the perfect defense and offense. His sword rips out souls.

Akatsuki:
Deidara-Bomb spamm and can fly
Konan-sharp as paper weapons
Itachi-Sharingan and all its wonders
Zetsu-Dont know yet
Kisame-Overwhelming strength and chakra
Kakuzu- overwhelming elemental control and can fly.
Hidan-Immortality and surprisingly good taijutsu skills
Sasori-multiple poison weapons and puppets plus the 3rd kazekage
Tobi/uchiha madara- Greatest sharingan powers we have seen

Sannin:
Jiraiya-Gamabunta and friends, sage mode and the rasengan
Tsunade-extraordinary healing ability
Orochimaru-Manda and friends, near immortal, knows many jutsus including forbidden techniques.

All ninja are easily s class ninja so they know how to use their abilities efficiently.

How can 5 fodder bodies and one strong one deal this overwhlmingly strong team.

Neither madara nor konan was included in the akatsuki team. Also I dont see how that was a"gravity jumo" or whatever that is. He was clearly flying. And no of course he cant fly forver but certainl long enough to shinra tensei the hell out of the team. Naruto taking out the other pain bodies is really of no consequence as not only is he far superior to most members of akatsuki while in sage mode but also because the main danger here will be coming from God realm who can stay out of range of most of their attacks and who usin his abilities to the fullest can one shot almost all of them. Also how in the world is Susano rippin out souls even useful? Aside the fact that it can be doded, it will be ripping souls out of a deadbody? Good luck with that. Not onl that but ITachi can only keep it out for a short period and using it at all will make him extremel weak and even more vulnerable. It would only be an advantage for pain if anything

Akatsuki
-Deidara-easily oneshotted with first fairly powerful shinra tensei, practically a non factor

Itachi-Most powerful attacks he has are more detrimental towards him than Pain, and there is also very likely to get oneshotted by the shinra tensei that kills deidara.

Zetsu-Dont knw much about him

Kisame-Has no way of reachin Pain offensively

Kakuzu-One of the few that might be useful here thouh still likely to get overwhelmed by shinra tensei

Hidan- gets incapacitated b shinra tensei. pretty useless offensively as well

Sasori- Shinra tensei takees him out and his needles will have no effect against dead bodies

Jiraiya-Likely Could be useful but even Gamabunta has been oneshotted by shinra tensei so he would be vulnerable to it as well

Tsunade- Quite useless here aside healing and she would get oneshotted

Orochimaru-Also useful here though shinra tensei would still be effective on him

So in the akatsuki and sannin practically evryone is vulnerable to shinra tensei and could get one shotted by it. then we have absorbin Pain who will be absorbing all the chakra attacks,Robot Pain, who will be shooting missles and explosives all over the place and summoning pain who will be spamming summons all of which is just to call interference.Then there is the pain that will continuosuly be reviving bodies as well.

God realm flying would put him out of the range of many of the teams members while he would still be able to attack them. Then add that to the fact that he can take the members of the team out in one shot and id sa he has a bi advantage. If he sees need to use chibaku tensei, its an auto win for him as well.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Neither madara nor konan was included in the akatsuki team. Also I dont see how that was a"gravity jumo" or whatever that is. He was clearly flying. And no of course he cant fly forver but certainl long enough to shinra tensei the hell out of the team. Naruto taking out the other pain bodies is really of no consequence as not only is he far superior to most members of akatsuki while in sage mode but also because the main danger here will be coming from God realm who can stay out of range of most of their attacks and who usin his abilities to the fullest can one shot almost all of them. Also how in the world is Susano rippin out souls even useful? Aside the fact that it can be doded, it will be ripping souls out of a deadbody? Good luck with that. Not onl that but ITachi can only keep it out for a short period and using it at all will make him extremel weak and even more vulnerable. It would only be an advantage for pain if anything

Akatsuki
-Deidara-easily oneshotted with first fairly powerful shinra tensei, practically a non factor

Itachi-Most powerful attacks he has are more detrimental towards him than Pain, and there is also very likely to get oneshotted by the shinra tensei that kills deidara.

Zetsu-Dont knw much about him

Kisame-Has no way of reachin Pain offensively

Kakuzu-One of the few that might be useful here thouh still likely to get overwhelmed by shinra tensei

Hidan- gets incapacitated b shinra tensei. pretty useless offensively as well

Sasori- Shinra tensei takees him out and his needles will have no effect against dead bodies

Jiraiya-Likely Could be useful but even Gamabunta has been oneshotted by shinra tensei so he would be vulnerable to it as well

Tsunade- Quite useless here aside healing and she would get oneshotted

Orochimaru-Also useful here though shinra tensei would still be effective on him

So in the akatsuki and sannin practically evryone is vulnerable to shinra tensei and could get one shotted by it. then we have absorbin Pain who will be absorbing all the chakra attacks,Robot Pain, who will be shooting missles and explosives all over the place and summoning pain who will be spamming summons all of which is just to call interference.Then there is the pain that will continuosuly be reviving bodies as well.

God realm flying would put him out of the range of many of the teams members while he would still be able to attack them. Then add that to the fact that he can take the members of the team out in one shot and id sa he has a bi advantage. If he sees need to use chibaku tensei, its an auto win for him as well.

The thing im trying to say is once God relam uses that shinra tensei its over for him.

Hidan is not useles him and Kakuzu's combos are very deadly.

Sasori -doesnt only have needles he also has the 100 puppets jutsu which is anothrt thing to force pein to use shinra tensei. He also has his true body which is a formidible force in itself.

Kisame- who know he might be able to use a huge wave to catch up to god relam. Kisame also has that water lake jutsu which could have a chance of allowing him too beat Pein fodder bodies.

Itachi- Its crazy if you think itachi is going to be one shotted. he is one of the people who wiped out the whole uchiha clan.

Deidar is not the type to just run into battle either he is a master strategist. He will be the first to notice God realms weakness. And he is very good at exploiting those.

Tsunade-is not useless the first thing she is going to do is summon Katsyu(or however you spell it) and hel constanly heal as well as help defeat Peins summons.

Oro- is also good at analyzing abilities and has an array of justu not to mention forbidden ones to get rid of pein. He wil never be one shotted.

Jiraiya- is the same a formidible oponent who wont allow himself to be one shotted.

All of the people on this team by themselves might no be able to beat pein but if they work together there should be no reason for them to lose.

Originally posted by yungz22
The thing im trying to say is once God relam uses that shinra tensei its over for him.


Once God realm uses Shinra Tensei its over forthem not him. He was able to simultaneously take out the 3 huge sage frogs with it and its rane is wide enough to destroy an entire village. In this scenario he wont need to use one even close to being as wide as the villae in order to affect the entire battlefield. That single shinra tensei can oneshot a good amount of the team. Then those who may even survive it will be greatly weakend and have only 5 seconds before he uses it again. Moreover if he uses chibaku tensei at any point, its an assured victory




He is useless in the sense that shinra tensei will likely injure him veyr badly and make him incapable of doing anything useful. Further he relies on hand to hand combat, something which is useless against God ealm anyways if he just stays out of rane.



A wide range Shinra tensei would turn sasori into a pile of scrap. Hence he is useless here



Kisame is quite durable and might not get taken out by the initial wide range shinra tensei. However he will be hurt immensely and five seconds isnt enough for him to recover to use any kind of attack. A second one will finish him off



Wiping out the uchiha clan is really of no consequence here. Pain destroyed the entire village as well as a good part of the area surrounding it. the initial wide range shinra tensei would ko Itachi as well.



It doesnt matter if he runs into battle or not, There is nowhere on the battlefield where he can escape the range of shinra tensei. He is also put down.



She actually is quite useless as long as pain lets off the first wide range shinra tensei before she starts to summon anyone, (which is bound to happen). Even if she herself survives by using her chakra storage and healin powers, she certainly wont be able to heal evryone in five seconds(since she wouldnt have even summoned katsuyu yet). Therefore Pain will have the chance to use a second shinra tensei before anyone gets up and she would definitely be dead out after that



Oro is quite durable but even if he isnt out complteley he certainl will be in no shape to take out Pain, let alone in the five seconds before Pain uses the attack again



This isnt about allowing urself to et oneshotted. The fact is they can do little about it. Shinra tensei took out Gamabunta and the huge frogs, it will be able to at the very least(and this is me lowballing it) affect Jiraiya badly enough to prevent an attack from him for five seconds after which if he isnt out(he likely will be anyways) he will be easily taken out.

If Pain fights to the best of his abilities and uses shinra tensei effectively he takes this team out. Then there always chibaku tensei which pretty much ends the fight regardless

Originally posted by Naija boy
He didnt do it against Jiraiya as he was hardly going all out against Jiraiya and was never really in danger during that fight. Plus simply countering the genjutsu in that mannner wouldnt have served for good story development. However there is nothing stopping him from doing it here and we know that once that is done genjutsu has no possible way of working

Also, tsukuyumi being near instant is simply a disadvantage to itachi. It is really quite futile as the bodies are only being animated by Nagato. Unlike jiraiyas genjutsu which actually froze/trapped the bodies in a particular place, Tsukuyumi is centred more on causing psycholoical and physical pain. The bodies however are already dead and so such attacks are null and void. Also because in real time Itachi only does it for a second or two, all it will do is nearly instantly weaken itachi greatly and make him even more vulnerable in this scenario without havin any positive impact. thats if Itachi can even et Tsukuyumi on God realm who could simply hover out of range and oneshot all of them with shinra tensei.
How is it being instant a disadvantage? Jiraiya's didn't literally freeze his opponents, it's genjutsu, an illusion to paralyze nerves. The effects worked perfectly on Pains body. Why wouldn't Itachi's? Tsukiyomi is supposedly the most powerful genjutsu.

Jiraiya's works on sound, while Itachi's works on sight. Each Pain body that heard the sound was under the effects of genjutsu. Each Pain who looks into the eyes of Itachi should suffer the effects of Itachi's genjutsu Pain couldn't break Jiraiya's genjutsu, or perhaps he didn't even bother trying to. But Itachi's is impossible to break because like I said, once it happens, it's over. There's no way of breaking it because its done in an instant unlike other genjutsus.

Originally posted by Terryc250
How is it being instant a disadvantage? Jiraiya's didn't literally freeze his opponents, it's genjutsu, an illusion to paralyze nerves. The effects worked perfectly on Pains body. Why wouldn't Itachi's? Tsukiyomi is supposedly the most powerful genjutsu.

Jiraiya's works on sound, while Itachi's works on sight. Each Pain body that heard the sound was under the effects of genjutsu. Each Pain who looks into the eyes of Itachi should suffer the effects of Itachi's genjutsu Pain couldn't break Jiraiya's genjutsu, or perhaps he didn't even bother trying to. But Itachi's is impossible to break because like I said, once it happens, it's over. There's no way of breaking it because its done in an instant unlike other genjutsus.

Jiraiyas Genjutsu particularly paralyzed their nerves and caused them to be unable to move at all(u could see that they were trapped in some sort of cubelike thing). The y could still communicate and were still aware of the real world but couldnt move so were pretty disadvantaged. Itachis Tsukuyumi has entirely different effects. Its main focus is to cause physical and pyschological pain to the opponent by transporting them to a phantom world controlled by Itachi. It is going to be a disadvantage to Itachi because unlike Jiraiyas genjutsu it wont have any effects for more than 1 or two seconds( or however long it takes him to actually do the genjutsu.). Thats cuz its effects are quite useless against dead bodies who have no consciousness at all and who wont even feel the physical pain in the first place.

So its exactly because its near instant that it wont be of much use here. In Jiraiyas genjutsu, the characters nerves stay paralysed even after the completion of the song. Its because of that prolonged effect even after the genjutsu was completed that it was useful in that scenario. However, as ive explained Tsukuyumi focuses on different aspects and has different effects which in this scenario against this opponent make it null and void after the second or so it takes him to do it

Once hit by tsukiyomi, Itachi can basically do anything to the opponent, its not just limited to a specific thing, Itachi has been shown to do paralyzing genjutsu as well, in Tsukiyomi everything is controlled by Itachi, in Kakashi's case, he can feel extreme pain, Or sasuke's case he can mentally destroy him. All it is, is just an illusion, Jiraiya doesn't literally freeze his opponents nerves, while Itachi doesn't literally stab his opponents. But Pains bodies will definately feel the effects, as to what Itachi chooses to make him go through. Just because the genjutsu is over, it doesn't mean the body doesn't feel the effects anymore. If Itachi wanted to destroy the bodies nerves then after the genjutsu is over, the body would have suffered the punishment the genjutsu laid on him in the world of tsukiyomi.

As for the bodies being fine after 1 or 2 seconds, that's bs. Itachi puts the body through whatever he wants it to, there bodies become useless after the genjutsu is over, there bodies aren't in shape to do anything anymore, they have to recover in a hospital bed for weeks, and that's if Itachi even lets them live. Tsukiyomi attacks the mind, as did Jiraiya's genjutsu. If one body looks into Itachi's eyes, all the bodies look into Itachi's eyes. Nagato would feel the effects as well.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Once hit by tsukiyomi, Itachi can basically do anything to the opponent, its not just limited to a specific thing, Itachi has been shown to do paralyzing genjutsu as well, in Tsukiyomi everything is controlled by Itachi, in Kakashi's case, he can feel extreme pain, Or sasuke's case he can mentally destroy him. All it is, is just an illusion, Jiraiya doesn't literally freeze his opponents nerves, while Itachi doesn't literally stab his opponents. But Pains bodies will definately feel the effects, as to what Itachi chooses to make him go through. Just because the genjutsu is over, it doesn't mean the body doesn't feel the effects anymore. If Itachi wanted to destroy the bodies nerves then after the genjutsu is over, the body would have suffered the punishment the genjutsu laid on him in the world of tsukiyomi.

As for the bodies being fine after 1 or 2 seconds, that's bs. Itachi puts the body through whatever he wants it to, there bodies become useless after the genjutsu is over, there bodies aren't in shape to do anything anymore, they have to recover in a hospital bed for weeks, and that's if Itachi even lets them live. Tsukiyomi attacks the mind, as did Jiraiya's genjutsu. If one body looks into Itachi's eyes, all the bodies look into Itachi's eyes. Nagato would feel the effects as well.

The times Itachi has done Tsukuyumi, he never did anything as precise as disabling or affecting their nervous system. Who did ITachi paralyse in the real world after usin tsukuyumi? He would have had to do this in order for the idea that he could replicate the effects of Jiraiyas genjutsu to have any substance. Further, in the case of Jiraiyas genjustsu, the pain bodies where actualy trapped in a cube in the physical world and hence couldnt move at all. Itachi has never shown abilities to have such physical manifestations in the real world.

Also the physical damage that the bodies go through in the Tsukuyumi world does not manifest in the physical world. Kakashi did not have any holes in his body after Tsukuyumi nor was he even bleeding. Infact Kisame called it "the genjustsu used to breakdown ones spirit". That description as well as its method of operation as seen on panel pretty much sums up the attack. It is focused causing great mental and subconscious pain to the individual. No physical damage is carried over (as seen in the case of Itachi whose body was still intact). So the belief that pains bodies will be to damaged to function is just false seeing as it doesnt cause physical damage in the first place. And then considering that the pain bodies cannot feel the form of pain that Tsukuyumi inflicts(they are alread dead, there is no spirit to even break down so itachi"letting them live" was never even on the cards) it will be inneffective. Further since it is a near instant attack, it will only serve in weakening itachi and wont even occupy pains time at all.

And the whole idea that Itachi tsukuyumi would somehow affect Naato or even the rest of the pain bodies is completely unsupported by anythin. Tsukuyumi is based on direct eye contact. It will only affect(and prove ineffective) the body whose physical eyes directly look into itachis. None of the others and certainly not nagato.

Originally posted by Naija boy
The times Itachi has done Tsukuyumi, he never did anything as precise as disabling or affecting their nervous system. Who did ITachi paralyse in the real world after usin tsukuyumi? He would have had to do this in order for the idea that he could replicate the effects of Jiraiyas genjutsu to have any substance. Further, in the case of Jiraiyas genjustsu, the pain bodies where actualy trapped in a cube in the physical world and hence couldnt move at all. Itachi has never shown abilities to have such physical manifestations in the real world.

Also the physical damage that the bodies go through in the Tsukuyumi world does not manifest in the physical world. Kakashi did not have any holes in his body after Tsukuyumi nor was he even bleeding. Infact Kisame called it "the genjustsu used to breakdown ones spirit". That description as well as its method of operation as seen on panel pretty much sums up the attack. It is focused causing great mental and subconscious pain to the individual. No physical damage is carried over (as seen in the case of Itachi whose body was still intact). So the belief that pains bodies will be to damaged to function is just false seeing as it doesnt cause physical damage in the first place. And then considering that the pain bodies cannot feel the form of pain that Tsukuyumi inflicts(they are alread dead, there is no spirit to even break down so itachi"letting them live" was never even on the cards) it will be inneffective. Further since it is a near instant attack, it will only serve in weakening itachi and wont even occupy pains time at all.

And the whole idea that Itachi tsukuyumi would somehow affect Naato or even the rest of the pain bodies is completely unsupported by anythin. Tsukuyumi is based on direct eye contact. It will only affect(and prove ineffective) the body whose physical eyes directly look into itachis. None of the others and certainly not nagato.

Though the Tsukuyomi is not real it feels just as real as if it were truly happening that is why when he used it on Kakashi he could no longer fight because of the stress the jutsu creates on his brain. He was out of action for weeks after that.

Also Terry is right that attack would not only affect one but all of them including Nagato ans since Nagato is the one controlling all of the bodies he himself would probably be put out of action. Allowing the team to win.

Originally posted by yungz22
Though the Tsukuyomi is not real it feels just as real as if it were truly happening that is why when he used it on Kakashi he could no longer fight because of the stress the jutsu creates on his brain. He was out of action for weeks after that.

Also Terry is right that attack would not only affect one but all of them including Nagato ans since Nagato is the one controlling all of the bodies he himself would probably be put out of action. Allowing the team to win.

The pain bodies are dead. As ive explained, the mental anguish, Tsukuyumi inflicts is therefore of no consequence.

And no it would not affect all of them at all. It would onl affect(and prove ineffective) the body whose physical eyes make direct contact with Itachi since the jutsu is based on direct eyecontact. It definitely wouldnt affect nagato at all.

Where was that proven? Show me?

All genjutsu is, is "mental anguish". It's all just illusions. Itachi can do whatever he wants with Tsukiyomi, whether it be, slicing off his arms and legs a thousand times, the body will feel the effects just as Pains body felt the effects of Jiraiya's illusion.

Pains bodies were not literally trapped inside that cube, it was an illusion. An illusion to make them trapped so that in the real world, it feels as though there nerves have been paralyzed. In Itachi's case, he controls everything that goes on in the world of Tsukiyomi, he can literally Kill them inside that world. And what you're saying is that Pain cannot feel anything, well that's incorrect. They still have nerves as those nerves were effected by Jiraiyas illusion. The bodies still wear, and they still get damaged by metnal illusions as proven by Jiraiya. Nagato still saw the illusion, it wasn't like he wasn't effected at all, he just had other bodies to help him.

Genjutsu is manipulating ur opponents chakra to create a specific effect. The Genjutsu Jiraiya used manipulated the chakra in the Pain bodies so that in the real world, there nerves were paralyzed. The reason Tsukuyumi wont be effective on the pain bodies is because unlike Jiraiyas genjutsu it causes psycholoical trauma as seen in the case of Itachi and Sasuke. It focuses on causin Pain to the opponents psyche/mind/spirit which subsequently leads to real physical pain. The pain bodies have no pysche of their own and thats why Tsukuyomi will be ineffective. Jirayas genjutsu worked on them because it actually took control of an aspect the bodies needed for movement. Itachis genjutsu doesnt do that.

If Itachi literally kills them inside that world it wont have any real life effect on the bodies cuz they are already dead. As Kisame said, Tsukuyumi is focused on breakin a persons spirit (which could also be called psyche). The Pain bodies have no spirit at all and are just bein animated.

also nagato was never shown to be affected b any illusion so im not sure what u mean there. As i said Tsukuyumi is based on direct eye contact and since nagato certainly wont be making direct eye contact with itachi it certainl wont affect him and neither will it affect any of the other bodies not makin direct eye contact with him

No, Itachi's tsukiyomi isn't just "psychological trauma" that's just something he CHOSE to do with Sasuke, Itachi could have done ANYTHING he wanted to Sasuke, he could've simply made him lose conciousness, he could've severed all the nerves in his body, he could've simply killed him in the world of tsukiyomi.

The bodies have nerves and they can be affected, as it was proven by Jiraiya. Itachi's genjutsu works on eye-contact, it's almost as if his eyes hypnotize the person. So if all of the bodies look into Itachi's eyes, they'll feel the effects. It doesn't have to be direct eye-contact, you simply just have to look into his eyes. Like if Kabuto with his glasses looked into Itachi's eyes, it'll still affect him. It's like i said, almost like hypnotism. If what you said were true, then everyone fighting a sharingan user would just wear glasses and not be affected by genjutsu because they aren't making "direct" eye contact.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, Itachi's tsukiyomi isn't just "psychological trauma" that's just something he CHOSE to do with Sasuke, Itachi could have done ANYTHING he wanted to Sasuke, he could've simply made him lose conciousness, he could've severed all the nerves in his body, he could've simply killed him in the world of tsukiyomi.

The bodies have nerves and they can be affected, as it was proven by Jiraiya. Itachi's genjutsu works on eye-contact, it's almost as if his eyes hypnotize the person. So if all of the bodies look into Itachi's eyes, they'll feel the effects. It doesn't have to be direct eye-contact, you simply just have to look into his eyes. Like if Kabuto with his glasses looked into Itachi's eyes, it'll still affect him. It's like i said, almost like hypnotism. If what you said were true, then everyone fighting a sharingan user would just wear glasses and not be affected by genjutsu because they aren't making "direct" eye contact.

Actually according to Kisame and according to what weve seen it do, it is focused on causing pyschological trauma. It is used in order to "break the opponents spirit" and that tells us evrything we need to know about the technique

And yes it does have to be direct eye contact. Ur kabuto example doesnt apply here because Kabutos physical eyes are still makin contact with Itachis regardless of the glasses. That is not the case at all with the pain bodies. Heck nagato is not even present in the battlefield so how will itachi extend his chakra towards him in order to ensnare him in the genjutsu? Thats definitely not happening.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually according to Kisame and according to what weve seen it do, it is focused on causing pyschological trauma. It is used in order to "break the opponents spirit" and that tells us evrything we need to know about the technique

And yes it does have to be direct eye contact. Ur kabuto example doesnt apply here because Kabutos physical eyes are still makin contact with Itachis regardless of the glasses. That is not the case at all with the pain bodies. Heck nagato is not even present in the battlefield so how will itachi extend his chakra towards him in order to ensnare him in the genjutsu? Thats definitely not happening. actually if they are as good as itachi is he doesnt have to use eye contact, he did it to naruto with his ring or finger didnt really say, but i do agree that it would do nothing to nagato. well maybe if itachi knew that nagato was controling them and thats only a maybe

Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually according to Kisame and according to what weve seen it do, it is focused on causing pyschological trauma. It is used in order to "break the opponents spirit" and that tells us evrything we need to know about the technique

And yes it does have to be direct eye contact. Ur kabuto example doesnt apply here because Kabutos physical eyes are still makin contact with Itachis regardless of the glasses. That is not the case at all with the pain bodies. Heck nagato is not even present in the battlefield so how will itachi extend his chakra towards him in order to ensnare him in the genjutsu? Thats definitely not happening.

Who's to say Nagato cannot have his spirit broken?

Kabuto's physical eyes aren't making direct eye contact, he's looking through glasses, there's something inbetween kabuto's eyes and itachi, therefore its not "direct". Nagato's chakra IS connected to the bodies, they all flow to Nagato.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Who's to say Nagato cannot have his spirit broken?

Kabuto's physical eyes aren't making direct eye contact, he's looking through glasses, there's something inbetween kabuto's eyes and itachi, therefore its not "direct". Nagato's chakra IS connected to the bodies, they all flow to Nagato.

Nagato wont have his spirit broken because the jutsu wont get to him in the first place.

Kabutos eyes and Itachis eyes are still making contact. There may be something inbetween, but the glasses are clear and his physical eyes are still lookin into Itachis physical eyes. That is in no way the same as those who physical eyes are not at all makin contact with Itachi (pain bodies) let alone Nagato who is not even present in that location. To think that Itachi can somehow extend his chakra into the Pain bodies and through the nagatos own chakra transmitters to reach nagato in order to control him is extreme reachin and not supported by anythin at all.

Why wouldn't it get to him in the first place?

No they're not making direct contact, there is something in the way. It has been said that the sharingan puts people under a hypnosis. Therefore its looking into the eyes which puts them under that. It's not shooting an invisible chakra laser into the opponent. It's hypnosis which causes the opponents chakra to disrupt. Then under that hypnosis, Itachi is free to do whatever he wants. That's why anyone just looking into the sharingan will be affected, and glasses wouldn't save them either because theyre still looking into the persons eyes.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Why wouldn't it get to him in the first place?

No they're not making direct contact, there is something in the way. It has been said that the sharingan puts people under a hypnosis. Therefore its looking into the eyes which puts them under that. It's not shooting an invisible chakra laser into the opponent. It's hypnosis which causes the opponents chakra to disrupt. Then under that hypnosis, Itachi is free to do whatever he wants. That's why anyone just looking into the sharingan will be affected, and glasses wouldn't save them either because theyre still looking into the persons eyes.
'
Genjutsu is performed by extending ur own chakra into ur opponents body in order to disrupt their own.FACT

Thats the way all Genjutsu's are performed including those performed by the sharigan. Its not Hypnosis. Likely in Itachis case, his chakra is extended into his opponents body upon contact with their physical eyes. Theirs is simply no way he can affect nagato who is not even in the arena. Thats in no way the same scenario as kabuto wearing glasses as kabuto is making physical eye contact with Itachi still.

Originally posted by Naija boy
It can be described as hypnosis because of the hallucinations it causes, but it DOES occur by extending ur chakra into ur opponent. Thats how all genjutsu works. Proof seen here

http://www.leafninja.com/genjutsu.php

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Genjutsu

You take control of your opponents chakra by extendin urs into theirs. In the case of the sharingan there is no way to do such if physical eyecontact is not being made let alone if the person is not even in the battlefield.

"Proof"

there are three explanations for genjutus, the first was explained by shikamaru/the sound nin with flute/jiraya's toads. its how the five senses can be used to trick the opponent's mind into thinking sumthing was there when it isnt. the second is an attack on the chakra circulatory system all the way to the brain and affecting it to affect your perception which jiraya told naruto to do against itachi. the last was itachi's tsukiyomi which he described as a direct attack on the soul of the subject covered in layers of pain which cudnt be broken free of and like sasuke and kakashi, it actually caused PHYSICAL harm to the person. itachi clone put naruto under a genjutsu when he was intentionally not looking simply by pointing a finger at him and his chakra trick didnt work on it either. also, the being in the field of view is a myth, in the chuunin exams, the weird snorkel dudes used a permanent proximity genjutsu against the whole team which made them go in circles without any such limitation. urochimaru's troops put the entire stadium to sleep without any specific eye contact/sound/touch etc. the second hokage's gnjutsu against the third{eternal darkness} was also proximity based as after he was devoured by the death god, even people on the outside noted how the darkness disappeared.

AND, pain said that the same move wudnt work against him twice when toad pa tried to use jiraya's genjutsu on him again with naruto.

Originally posted by leonheartmm


AND, pain said that the same move wudnt work against him twice when toad pa tried to use jiraya's genjutsu on him again with naruto. Well..He had time to stop it. It's not like he has a chance to stop Tsukiyomi..Though Genjutsu obviously would affect the bodies...but not Nagato himself. So all he has to do is cut the chakra flow, and genjutsu is broken. Then reconnect the chakra flow.

Although the bodies are dead they are given all of their senses when pein rejuvenates them so genjutsu should work.

The genjutsu doesn't effect Nagato though..Or Jiraiya would've won, and lived. And never known about Nagato or anything. And while they might effect the performance of the body, and my disrupt the chakra he's using as it messes up with chakra, stopping the chakra from the bodies would end the genjutsu as it has no chakra to use against the body so he'd be able to reconnect the chakra flow and be fine.

Though that's just my assumption on it.

Originally posted by Kento
The genjutsu doesn't effect Nagato though..Or Jiraiya would've won, and lived. And never known about Nagato or anything. And while they might effect the performance of the body, and my disrupt the chakra he's using as it messes up with chakra, stopping the chakra from the bodies would end the genjutsu as it has no chakra to use against the body so he'd be able to reconnect the chakra flow and be fine.

Though that's just my assumption on it.

If that were the case he wouldnt need that other body to revive the fallen bodies. He could just disrupt the chakra flow and connect it back

Originally posted by yungz22
If that were the case he wouldnt need that other body to revive the fallen bodies. He could just disrupt the chakra flow and connect it back

No, when that other body revives the fallen bodies it is to heal physical damage to the pain bodies.

No, it's because Tsukiyomi is on a different level of genjutsu then Jiraiyas. Jiraiya/Tayuya, was once the sound waves enters the ear, the victim is under genjutsu. while Itachi is whoever makes eye contact with him is under the hypnosis.

Also, how do we know Nagato wasn't effected by Jiraiya's genjutsu? He knew he was under the spell, and he saw what was in the genjutsu illusion, as soon as he caught one, all of them were trapped. He didn't/couldn't summon the other bodies until the genjutsu was dispelled. If he could have done something, why didn't he just summon the rest of his bodies as soon as the 3 were caught, which would've saved his bodies from possibly being destroyed.

If Pains body was caught, Itachi could destroy all the nerves, and literally kill the bodies, or make them useless. Remeber, it happens instantly, and is over instantly.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, it's because Tsukiyomi is on a different level of genjutsu then Jiraiyas. Jiraiya/Tayuya, was once the sound waves enters the ear, the victim is under genjutsu. while Itachi is whoever makes eye contact with him is under the hypnosis.

Also, how do we know Nagato wasn't effected by Jiraiya's genjutsu? He knew he was under the spell, and he saw what was in the genjutsu illusion, as soon as he caught one, all of them were trapped. He didn't/couldn't summon the other bodies until the genjutsu was dispelled. If he could have done something, why didn't he just summon the rest of his bodies as soon as the 3 were caught, which would've saved his bodies from possibly being destroyed.

If Pains body was caught, Itachi could destroy all the nerves, and literally kill the bodies, or make them useless. Remeber, it happens instantly, and is over instantly.

Tsukuyomi still relies on extending hi chakra to control others like all genjutsu. And it wont work on those not making physical eye contact with him. Weve seen nothing to show that it will.

For one Nagato couldnt have been affected by Jiraiyas genjutsu because he didnt hear the song in the firt place.He didnt summon the other bodies till the genjutsu was dispelled, it doesnt mean he couldnt. He was never actually in trouble in his fight against Jiraiya anyways since reviving the bodies was quite easy for him.

Tsukuyumi i an attack that affects the psyche/spirit. He cant replicate the effects of Jiraiyas Genjutsu.

I gave you the kabuto example where he's not making physical eye contact, yet it would still affect him.

Sure Nagato heard the song, Nagato hears what his bodies hear. He most likely saw what the bodies saw in the illusion. He knows genjutsu doesn't last forever, he could've just waited until the genjutsu was dispelled before he summoned the other bodies. Which is what he did. He didn't summon the bodies when his other bodies were in a pinch. He waited until the genjutsu was dispelled.

The thing about the sharingan mangekyou is that it really is hypnotism, when people look into its eyes

The translation of tsukiyomi from the Databook:

Tsukuyomi description: (this is the bottom right)
Within the Sharingan's telepathic and hypnotical powers, the greatest genjutsu was created out of hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. On this earth, people are subject to things like time, gravity and air, and the people who can maximize their abilities are the ones who decide who is the winner and loser. However, Tsukuyomi gives the user the ability to drag his opponent to an imaginary world that the user builds, and restricts him in it.
Common sense does not apply in this imaginary world like it does in the real world. There is no possibilty of dispelling this genjutsu. People caught in this genjutsu do not know when this imaginary world will end, and the user controls everything. He shows them the punishment of hell. It makes the person caught in it crazy. Even if you are strong enough to break rocks, or fast as lightning, it matters not before this technique....that's why this technique is feared.

(Top Left)
The owner of the title of"The Greatest Clan" the Uchiha clan's bloodline limit Sharingan. Within them only those at the top level with the "Mangekyo Sharingan" can use this technique. At the same time, only those with Sharingan can dispell Tsukuyomi... only special level shinobis can use this. Only those blood relatives of the Uchiha clan who are blessed with talent can recieve this heavenly technique"

Originally posted by Terryc250
I gave you the kabuto example where he's not making physical eye contact, yet it would still affect him.

Sure Nagato heard the song, Nagato hears what his bodies hear. He most likely saw what the bodies saw in the illusion. He knows genjutsu doesn't last forever, he could've just waited until the genjutsu was dispelled before he summoned the other bodies. Which is what he did. He didn't summon the bodies when his other bodies were in a pinch. He waited until the genjutsu was dispelled.

The thing about the sharingan mangekyou is that it really is hypnotism, when people look into its eyes

The translation of tsukiyomi from the Databook:

Tsukuyomi description: (this is the bottom right)
Within the Sharingan's telepathic and hypnotical powers, the greatest genjutsu was created out of hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. On this earth, people are subject to things like time, gravity and air, and the people who can maximize their abilities are the ones who decide who is the winner and loser. However, Tsukuyomi gives the user the ability to drag his opponent to an imaginary world that the user builds, and restricts him in it.
Common sense does not apply in this imaginary world like it does in the real world. There is no possibilty of dispelling this genjutsu. People caught in this genjutsu do not know when this imaginary world will end, and the user controls everything. He shows them the punishment of hell. It makes the person caught in it crazy. Even if you are strong enough to break rocks, or fast as lightning, it matters not before this technique....that's why this technique is feared.

(Top Left)
The owner of the title of"The Greatest Clan" the Uchiha clan's bloodline limit Sharingan. Within them only those at the top level with the "Mangekyo Sharingan" can use this technique. At the same time, only those with Sharingan can dispell Tsukuyomi... only special level shinobis can use this. Only those blood relatives of the Uchiha clan who are blessed with talent can recieve this heavenly technique"

The Kabuto example is not analogous with this at all. Kabutos physical eyes are still lookin directly into Itachis physical eyes which is the point. That is NOT going to be happening here seeing as Nagato isnt even in the battlefield in the first place.

Also for Jiraiyas genjustsu to have worked, the waves coming out of their mouths actually have to enter the beings physical ears(we saw the waves entering the pain bodies ears). It cant work on someone who is not even present. We know this is true because like ALL genjutsu it relies on extending ur own chakra flow in order to disrupt ur opponents. This is not possible if ur opponent is not even in the battlefield.

The mangekyou sharingan is Genjutsu and so works like all other genjutsu. That method of operation in itself is what makes it impossible to work on nagato. Posting the description of it is pointless and adds nothing here. Infact in the decription it refers to the Genjutsu making the person crazy which indicates its focus on the psyche/spirit of a person which has been confirmed on panel by Kisame. The fact that the pain bodies are dead and have no psyche to affect further reduces its effectiveness and usefulness here.

Oh this magna proves that God realm cant beat the team on his own look at how good naruto is doing on his own he is even about to kill him in the next chapter

You do realize Naruto is fighting a Pein who has been using jutsu after jutsu. Even when Naruto had first shown up Pein wasn't exactly at 100% and has still been using big jutsu's right after the other. The fight would be going very different now if Nagato hadn't of used a huge Shinra Tensei to destroy Konoha.

Originally posted by yungz22
Oh this magna proves that God realm cant beat the team on his own look at how good naruto is doing on his own he is even about to kill him in the next chapter

Not at all. Naruto started fighting a very weakened Pain thanks to the shinra tensei he had used on konoha. When he started fighting Godrealm fullpowered there were numerous times in which Godrealm could have killed him had he been so inclined intead of giving him lectures about Pain and whatnot. Currently godrealm is weakened again and thats the only reason naruto is doing well at all.

Actually chakra can be extended through the rods, read the last chapter? Naruto's chakra went into Pain's body, which showed Naruto's eyes above Nagato. Which is more proof that perhaps Nagato did get affected by Jiraiya's jutsu as well, which is why he couldn't/didn't summon the bodies when Jiraiya was putting swords through his other bodies.

If Itachi's tsukiyomi chakra goes through the bodies, it reaches Nagato as well.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Tsukuyomi still relies on extending hi chakra to control others like all genjutsu. And it wont work on those not making physical eye contact with him. Weve seen nothing to show that it will.

For one Nagato couldnt have been affected by Jiraiyas genjutsu because he didnt hear the song in the firt place.He didnt summon the other bodies till the genjutsu was dispelled, it doesnt mean he couldnt. He was never actually in trouble in his fight against Jiraiya anyways since reviving the bodies was quite easy for him.

Tsukuyumi i an attack that affects the psyche/spirit. He cant replicate the effects of Jiraiyas Genjutsu.

no, tsukiyomi is an attack on the SOUL, its different. and seeing that even itachi clone using a normal genjutsu cud put naruto under its spell when he wasnt even looking, simply by pointing a finger, and that naruto was unable to break free of i even by stopping his chakra says otherwise.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Actually chakra can be extended through the rods, read the last chapter? Naruto's chakra went into Pain's body, which showed Naruto's eyes above Nagato. Which is more proof that perhaps Nagato did get affected by Jiraiya's jutsu as well, which is why he couldn't/didn't summon the bodies when Jiraiya was putting swords through his other bodies.

If Itachi's tsukiyomi chakra goes through the bodies, it reaches Nagato as well.

It never mentioned that naruot chakra went into Pains body. The rods are what pain uses to pass his chakra into his bodies. When naruto stabbed himself with it the chakra went into him and he was able to trace the chakra back to Nagato because he was in sage mode. That incident has no bearings on Itachi ad Tsukuyumi and doesnt prove at all that Pain was affected by Jiaraiyas genjutsu

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no, tsukiyomi is an attack on the SOUL, its different. and seeing that even itachi clone using a normal genjutsu cud put naruto under its spell when he wasnt even looking, simply by pointing a finger, and that naruto was unable to break free of i even by stopping his chakra says otherwise.

Tsukuyumi is an attack on the spirit/soul whatever and so? It has never been mentioned to work different from other genjutsu and therefore still operates by extendin chakra. ITachis clone didnt put naruto in Tsukuyumi. He even said that in that weakend state he couldnt even use the manekyou sharingan because it used so much chakra. All he did was put naruto in a normal genjutsu and because of naruots horrendous chakra control he couldnt break out. That incident is also irrelevant here

Originally posted by Naija boy
It never mentioned that naruot chakra went into Pains body. The rods are what pain uses to pass his chakra into his bodies. When naruto stabbed himself with it the chakra went into him and he was able to trace the chakra back to Nagato because he was in sage mode. That incident has no bearings on Itachi ad Tsukuyumi and doesnt prove at all that Pain was affected by Jiaraiyas genjutsu

How else would Naruto know where Pain is? What would be the point of stabbing himself? Their chakra connected. Remeber when Pain disrupts his opponents chakra with the rods, it shows Pains eyes above the character. WHen Naruto used the rod, Naruto's eyes went above Nagato. Most likely Byakugen, Sharingan, Sage Mode, cannot see the chakra unless their own chakra is connected to it, that's why Naruto needed to stab himself, and then he was capable of tracing it back. There's also no proof that Nagato was not affected by Jiraiya's genjutsu.

Originally posted by Terryc250
How else would Naruto know where Pain is? What would be the point of stabbing himself? Their chakra connected. Remeber when Pain disrupts his opponents chakra with the rods, it shows Pains eyes above the character. WHen Naruto used the rod, Naruto's eyes went above Nagato. Most likely Byakugen, Sharingan, Sage Mode, cannot see the chakra unless their own chakra is connected to it, that's why Naruto needed to stab himself, and then he was capable of tracing it back. There's also no proof that Nagato was not affected by Jiraiya's genjutsu.

Naruto used sage mode to trace Nagatos chakra back to his location as said by Nagato himself. So because naruto was in sage mode he was able to trace the flow of chakra coming in from nagato through the rod back to him. Theres is nothing that was shown in that manga that lends credence to anything else. Therefore I really dont know how u came up with all ur theories as they are currently unsupported by anything.

And further, there is no proof that Nagato was affected by Jirayas genjutsu. He was never shown during that period of time. The burden of proof therefore lie on u to prove he was affected since nothing of the sort was suggested. In addition, the nature of genjutsu in general supports the fact that he wasnt affected.

So then tell me, why would Naruto stab himself? What is the Naruto eyes above Peins head supposed to mean? When Jiraiya/Kakshi were stabbed, it showed Peins eyes above their heads, which meant Peins chakra is in them, did it not?

There's no proof that Nagato wasn't affected by Jiraiya's genjutsu, Nagato did see what was going on inside the genjutsu did he not? WHy didn't he help out his bodies when they were caught? Why could/did he not do anything until the genjutsu was over?

your basing your argument on eyes above a certain character?

well alright good luck with that

Originally posted by Terryc250
So then tell me, why would Naruto stab himself? What is the Naruto eyes above Peins head supposed to mean? When Jiraiya/Kakshi were stabbed, it showed Peins eyes above their heads, which meant Peins chakra is in them, did it not?

There's no proof that Nagato wasn't affected by Jiraiya's genjutsu, Nagato did see what was going on inside the genjutsu did he not? WHy didn't he help out his bodies when they were caught? Why could/did he not do anything until the genjutsu was over?

Your just making assumptions and speculations all over the place. It was never said what Pains eyes above a person meant. For all i know it could be illustration used for dramatic effect. Since nothing was mentioned about its specific meaning then its certainly not my job to decipher it. What was said is that Naruto traced nagatos chakra back to his location and this was something he was able to do because he was in sage mode. Thats what my argument is based off while urs is based off wild speculations.

There are many possible reasons why nagato didnt free his bodies. The one reason u are trying to selectively apply is one of the weakest since it goes against the nature of genjutsu itself. Nagato was never in danger in that fight and so he could have simply allowed it to go on in order to later on revive them and show Jiraiya the futility of his battle. Also God realm hardly did anything in that fight same with alot of the other Pain bodies. Clearly he was taking it easy the entire battle so another reason could be that he simply didnt feel threatened enough to interfere. Regardless of what the reason may be all are superior choices to the claim that nagato was affected because that is in itself not possible due to the actual process of how genjutsu is cast.

Yes but tell me what would be the purpose of him having to stab himself? How is this "speculation" ? It's a logical question. Naruto was in sage mode almost the entire fight, so? Whats the difference? "Dramatic effects" is just a petty excuse for not being able to find an explanation. We know when Pains eyes were above Kakashi, Jiraiya, was because of Pains chakra.

Not really, Nagato even said himself if Jiraiya knew his secret he would have lost. Now try explaining how Pain would have lost. If Jiraiya knew his secret he would have destroyed Pains bodies, putting them totally out of comission. Now, the only way Jiraiya could have done that is if Pain was unable to do anything while under the effects of genjutsu. If you think Nagato wasn't affected by genjutsu, then try explaining how Jiraiya could win.

Pein's secret is Nagato...If he found out they were puppets and found Nagato he'd win. Or the fact he can only be so far away from them so if he found that out he could just lead them away from Nagato. What does that have to do with genjutsu on Pein's bodies? And the genjutsu paralyzes the body...which means right away it be useless on Nagato as he doesn't need to move...And also we have no idea how far the bodies were from where Jiraiya fought the three..And Animal Realm was paralyzed. So Nagato's other bodies would have to get there by running or walking..And it's not like they would need to hurry. Surprise Jiraiya, revive the bodies, fight some more. It's not like the three being beaten are going to harm Pein any.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Yes but tell me what would be the purpose of him having to stab himself? How is this "speculation" ? It's a logical question. Naruto was in sage mode almost the entire fight, so? Whats the difference? "Dramatic effects" is just a petty excuse for not being able to find an explanation. We know when Pains eyes were above Kakashi, Jiraiya, was because of Pains chakra.

Not really, Nagato even said himself if Jiraiya knew his secret he would have lost. Now try explaining how Pain would have lost. If Jiraiya knew his secret he would have destroyed Pains bodies, putting them totally out of comission. Now, the only way Jiraiya could have done that is if Pain was unable to do anything while under the effects of genjutsu. If you think Nagato wasn't affected by genjutsu, then try explaining how Jiraiya could win.

Stabbing himself was for to get access to Pains chakra so that he could trace it back to him. We know that this was possible particularly because naruto was in sage mode as Nagato explained. That all that happened. Naruto traced Pains chakra back to him end of story. You are ignoring what was stated and trying to infer something never suggested. We DO NOT know why Pains eyes appear over the persons body.Further, neither do we know if narutos eyes appearing above Nagato signified the same thing in the first place. It has never been explicitly stated at all. As i said ur simply reaching and speculating about things never mentioned and trying to use it to support ur wild theory. Heck even if we decide to indulge in baseless speculation the argument still lacks substance. Pains eyes have been shown to appear above another being body when he is disrupting their chakra. Yet when naruto's eyes appeared above Nagato, naruto didnt dirupt nagatos chakra.All he did was trace the chakra back to him. In other words, he simply followed the trail of chakra back to its source. Hence what he and nagato were doing were fundamentally different in the firt place.


And no its very clear how Jiraiya would have defeated nagato. He would have directly gone after nagatos body without struggling with the bodies. Or tried to get the bodies out of range of nagatos chakra transmitters. That had absolutely nothing to do with Jiraiya performing genjutsu at all. The level of reaching u did to get to that conclusion is astounding.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Tsukuyumi is an attack on the spirit/soul whatever and so? It has never been mentioned to work different from other genjutsu and therefore still operates by extendin chakra. ITachis clone didnt put naruto in Tsukuyumi. He even said that in that weakend state he couldnt even use the manekyou sharingan because it used so much chakra. All he did was put naruto in a normal genjutsu and because of naruots horrendous chakra control he couldnt break out. That incident is also irrelevant here

actually, it was said to be undispellable, which means that it CANT be dispelled by chakra control. only with sasuke's sharingan was it overcome. and even kakashi who does NOT have horrendous chakra control cudnt dispell it with that technique.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually, it was said to be undispellable, which means that it CANT be dispelled by chakra control. only with sasuke's sharingan was it overcome. and even kakashi who does NOT have horrendous chakra control cudnt dispell it with that technique. That's because Kakashi tried to fight it with a sharingan that was woefully outmatched...not dispel it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually, it was said to be undispellable, which means that it CANT be dispelled by chakra control. only with sasuke's sharingan was it overcome. and even kakashi who does NOT have horrendous chakra control cudnt dispell it with that technique.

The case of nagato and his puppets is entirely different from a regular person. Nagato will be removing all his chakra from his puppets body. So there will be nothing for Tsukyumi to work on at all. Thats entirely different from a regular person trying to redirect his own chakra.

Originally posted by Naija boy
The case of nagato and his puppets is entirely different from a regular person. Nagato will be removing all his chakra from his puppets body. So there will be nothing for Tsukyumi to work on at all. Thats entirely different from a regular person trying to redirect his own chakra.

Removing chakra sounds good only two things are wrong with this Tsukiyomi happens less than a second so Nagato wouldnt be able to disconect chakra in time. Also you forget that these are dead bodies and Pein is fighting a group exceptional ninja. Once nagato releases that chakra the bodies would be like abandoned toys they wouldnt be able to move or do anything someone like oro or any of the others would notice this and then destroy the bodies.

Also God realm is not the only one who has the pwoer to destroy a village in one jutsu Deidara can do it also. He even goes as far as bio warfare.

Originally posted by Naija boy
The case of nagato and his puppets is entirely different from a regular person. Nagato will be removing all his chakra from his puppets body. So there will be nothing for Tsukyumi to work on at all. Thats entirely different from a regular person trying to redirect his own chakra.

then howcome they were unable to escape jiraya's genjutsu? just saying, the level of genjutsu matters a LOT when ur trying to escape from it. again, im not saying that itachi can win against pain, im just saying, ur reasoning for how genjutsu works is flawed.

Originally posted by yungz22
Removing chakra sounds good only two things are wrong with this Tsukiyomi happens less than a second so Nagato wouldnt be able to disconect chakra in time. Also you forget that these are dead bodies and Pein is fighting a group exceptional ninja. Once nagato releases that chakra the bodies would be like abandoned toys they wouldnt be able to move or do anything someone like oro or any of the others would notice this and then destroy the bodies.

I know that its last for such a short period. And thats why i have repeatedly ermphasized the fact that Tsukuyumi is an attack on a persons spirit etc. And would therefore be ineffective against the bodies anyways. The chakra removal would be used to counter ny other genjutsu of Itachis. And pain doesnt have to release the chakra for long. A quick removal and reinsertion will do the trick so the bodies will be in little danger from the manoevre.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
then howcome they were unable to escape jiraya's genjutsu? just saying, the level of genjutsu matters a LOT when ur trying to escape from it. again, im not saying that itachi can win against pain, im just saying, ur reasoning for how genjutsu works is flawed.

Because nagato didnt try it. In the fight against Jiraiya Pain was never in any danger and in comparison to his other fights took it pretty easy.

^but he also said that it wudnt work twice. meaning, he cudnt stop it the first time.

^Not that he couldnt stop it the first time but that since he already knew how the genjutsu worked he wouldnt allow them to place it on him.

no, it means it wud only work the first time. genjutsus wud be utterly useless against any normal jounin if that logic held true.