Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29678907/

Banks steered blacks to bad loans, NAACP says
Class-action lawsuits target subprime lenders Wells Fargo, HSBC
Most popular

updated 1 hour, 46 minutes ago
The NAACP is accusing Wells Fargo and HSBC of forcing blacks into subprime mortgages while whites with identical qualifications got lower rates.

Class-action lawsuits were to be filed against the banks Friday in federal court in Los Angeles, Austin Tighe, co-lead counsel for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, told The Associated Press.

Black homebuyers have been 3 1/2 times more likely to receive a subprime loan than white borrowers, and six times more likely to get a subprime rate when refinancing, Tighe said. Blacks still were disproportionately steered into subprime loans when their credit scores, income and down payment were equal to those of white homebuyers, he said.

Melissa Murray, vice president of corporate communications for Wells Fargo & Co., called the lawsuit "totally unfounded and reckless." The bank is receiving federal bailout funds.

"We have never tolerated, and will never tolerate, discrimination in any way, shape or form in any of our business practices, products, or services," Murray said.

HSBC said it does not comment on litigation. "HSBC stands by its fair lending and consumer protection practices, and we are confident that we are treating our customers fairly and with integrity," said Neil Brazil, vice president for public affairs.

An NAACP member, Amara Weaver of Milwaukee, said she was one of the victims of predatory lending. She bought her first home in 1984, receiving a 6.25 percent fixed-rate mortgage. She says she had a steady job as a human resources director for a social services agency, never missed a mortgage payment and maintained excellent credit.

In 2004, she wanted to buy the house next door for her son to live in. She said the bank promised her a low fixed rate for a $40,000 loan, but at the closing, when reading the fine print, she noticed that the rate was actually 11 percent.

"I was blown away," said Weaver, an NAACP member. "I didn't have any choice (but to sign). ... It made me feel violated."

Similar NAACP lawsuits are pending against a dozen other subprime lenders.

"This is systematic, institutionalized racism," Tighe said. "Once you take out factors relative to income and credit risk, the only difference between the borrowers is the color of their skin."

Tighe estimated that "tens of thousands" of blacks had been forced into bad loans, but said it was difficult to gauge the scope of the problem because banks keep much of their internal data private. The lawsuits could force banks to divulge closely guarded information, such as how banks can determine the race of a loan applicant and how federal bailout funds are being spent.

The NAACP is seeking reforms from the banks such as increased transparency in the loan process, educational outreach and internal training.




****in whitey! Holding the black man down again!

That's why you ask them to fax, email or send you a copy of the final draft before signing day. Even then, you read and re-read the fine print.

People (not just black people) were definitely screwed by shady loans-men looking to make a quick commission, but in the end, no one forced people at gunpoint to sign.

I didn't read the whole story, but it smells of that crook Al Sharpton.

That's what they get for being black.

I think the NAAFP would be better.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That's what they get for being black.

Isn't it forty acres and a mule?

Originally posted by jaden101
I think the NAAFP would be better.

Fat People?
Fudge People?
Food People?
Feast People?
Frito People?

Originally posted by Robtard
Isn't it forty acres and a mule?

No just oppression. They chose to be black when they were in heaven after all.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Fat People?



Bingo. Peter Griffin is the man.

What a load of crap.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What a load of crap.

Well they didn't give bad loans to white people srug

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Well they didn't give bad loans to white people srug

Nope. White people had no bad debt. None.
Cos when you give loans, you want it all to go into bad debt, bankrupt your bank, just to spite black people.
You in no way look to lend it to people who can give it back with interest.

Seriously, white people should stop exploiting everyone with everything.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Nope. White people had no bad debt. None.
Cos when you give loans, you want it all to go into bad debt, bankrupt your bank, just to spite black people.
You in no way look to lend it to people who can give it back with interest.

Seriously, white people should stop exploiting everyone with everything.

Point well taken. I, at first, assumed this article to have a very serious and legit point.

However, after reading your comment, it makes more sense that this happened.



In this particular case, I don't think a "per captia" measurement is appropriate. Rather, it would be a raw number that is more appropriate. What about loan rejections? If the number of loans rejected exceeded the number of loans requested, for African Americans, relative to the white population, per capita (damn..that's a mouth full), then those numbers really mean jack shit.

However, if both sets of data agree with the NAACP's sentiments, then this is a very disturbing point. However, I didn't do it, and it wasn't my fault. so I am not paying for it and I am not sorry. It's their fault, regardless of race, for being the dumbass who fell for that bullshit. I don't ****ing care. You signed it without reading properly, you ****ed up. Ignorance doesn't get you out of a legal agreement, now does it? (I know that there is probably some exceptions, but arguing that would being missing my point.)

Originally posted by dadudemon
Let me know, though, when you see a white guy obessing over tacky and excessive jewelry and rims, and then I'll show you a white guy trying to be black.

you don't know many white guys under 25 do you?

Originally posted by inimalist
you don't know many white guys under 25 do you?

I live in Oklahoma where most the middle class white boys are whiggers, to some degree. I think there are more "white black" people than "black black" people.


It's ALL GTA's fault.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I live in Oklahoma where most the middle class white boys are whiggers, to some degree. I think there are more "white black" people than "black black" people.


It's ALL GTA's fault.

lol, same where I live...

CJ mother****ers

EDIT: on a side note, anyone know why the censor even bothers to erase that? mother****ers is pretty much the same term. I don't imagine there are that many 11-12 year olds reading that going "mother-what-ers?"

Why would anyone want to have their trousers half way down their ass and walk like they've been shot in a leg?
Be it black or white.
Looks just as ridiculous on both.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Why would anyone want to have their trousers half way down their ass and walk like they've been shot in a leg?
Be it black or white.
Looks just as ridiculous on both.

Shot in the arse with a custard gun would be more apt.

This shit is racialist, yo

Racist against who, whites or blacks?

More like "silliest " taking the piss out of silly people white or black who walk about with their trousers hanging down, wearing a baseball cap the wrong way round and walking like they have gigantic balls and a pole up the butt.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
Racist against who, whites or blacks?

More like "silliest " taking the piss out of silly people white or black who walk about with their trousers hanging down, wearing a baseball cap the wrong way round and walking like they have gigantic balls and a pole up the butt.



I've never heard someone put it that way before. I'm going to have to start saying that.

Originally posted by KidRock
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29678907/

Banks steered blacks to bad loans, NAACP says
Class-action lawsuits target subprime lenders Wells Fargo, HSBC
Most popular

updated 1 hour, 46 minutes ago
The NAACP is accusing Wells Fargo and HSBC of forcing blacks into subprime mortgages while whites with identical qualifications got lower rates.

Class-action lawsuits were to be filed against the banks Friday in federal court in Los Angeles, Austin Tighe, co-lead counsel for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, told The Associated Press.

Black homebuyers have been 3 1/2 times more likely to receive a subprime loan than white borrowers, and six times more likely to get a subprime rate when refinancing, Tighe said. Blacks still were disproportionately steered into subprime loans when their credit scores, income and down payment were equal to those of white homebuyers, he said.

Melissa Murray, vice president of corporate communications for Wells Fargo & Co., called the lawsuit "totally unfounded and reckless." The bank is receiving federal bailout funds.

"We have never tolerated, and will never tolerate, discrimination in any way, shape or form in any of our business practices, products, or services," Murray said.

HSBC said it does not comment on litigation. "HSBC stands by its fair lending and consumer protection practices, and we are confident that we are treating our customers fairly and with integrity," said Neil Brazil, vice president for public affairs.

An NAACP member, Amara Weaver of Milwaukee, said she was one of the victims of predatory lending. She bought her first home in 1984, receiving a 6.25 percent fixed-rate mortgage. She says she had a steady job as a human resources director for a social services agency, never missed a mortgage payment and maintained excellent credit.

In 2004, she wanted to buy the house next door for her son to live in. She said the bank promised her a low fixed rate for a $40,000 loan, but at the closing, when reading the fine print, she noticed that the rate was actually 11 percent.

"I was blown away," said Weaver, an NAACP member. "I didn't have any choice (but to sign). ... It made me feel violated."

Similar NAACP lawsuits are pending against a dozen other subprime lenders.

"This is systematic, institutionalized racism," Tighe said. "Once you take out factors relative to income and credit risk, the only difference between the borrowers is the color of their skin."

Tighe estimated that "tens of thousands" of blacks had been forced into bad loans, but said it was difficult to gauge the scope of the problem because banks keep much of their internal data private. The lawsuits could force banks to divulge closely guarded information, such as how banks can determine the race of a loan applicant and how federal bailout funds are being spent.

The NAACP is seeking reforms from the banks such as increased transparency in the loan process, educational outreach and internal training.




****in whitey! Holding the black man down again!

I betcha a steak dinner that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson got turn down by a bank loan and BOOOM...this happen.

So yeah, no money for those two clowns.

aren't 90% to 98% of the all C.E.O.'s C.F.O.'s and C.O.O.'s of all (major) american business; banks (big and small), of all these companies White?

They produce, market, and advertise puedo pro-consumer products and servies that they get for pennies on the dollar off the backs of 3 and 4 year old kids in foreign countries just to sell it back via false advertisement to you, us, fellow countrymen, for tens and hundereds or thousands of dollars.

the so called captains of industry create these policies and deceptive practies and basically lie, just craftily. in this case we had greedy loan officers. and greedy consumers but i hold these "business leaders" more responsible.

mainly they fcuked the u.s. economy up. i say it's like 70% their fault.

whats gonna happen now? our resources here in the u.s. are gonna dry up because the us govt is lending trillions of bucket loads money that doesn't even exist yet. and that better be paid back.

China's our biggest creditor. Do you know what happens when a country can't pay it's debt back to the lender country? The lender country goes to war with the debtor to sieze the equal value back by force whether it be through it through land or anything else.

And i think they're already planning an invasion.

N. korea's already testing nukes and sent satillites up into space and so has Iran, and China's already starting to act defiant. Nuclear India's another one of our debtors. they hate pakistan, our allies, what do you think they'll do? the second biggest county on the planet...

i go off on a huge tangent my apologies, just could stop typing..

but i believed back did steer people to bad loans. not just blacks. i think White people are going through this foreclosure crisis more than black people are.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
aren't 90% to 98% of the all C.E.O.'s C.F.O.'s and C.O.O.'s of all (major) american business; banks (big and small), of all these companies White?

They produce, market, and advertise puedo pro-consumer products and servies that they get for pennies on the dollar off the backs of 3 and 4 year old kids in foreign countries just to sell it back via false advertisement to you, us, fellow countrymen, for tens and hundereds or thousands of dollars.

the so called captains of industry create these policies and deceptive practies and basically lie, just craftily. in this case we had greedy loan officers. and greedy consumers but i hold these "business leaders" more responsible.

mainly they fcuked the u.s. economy up. i say it's like 70% their fault.

whats gonna happen now? our resources here in the u.s. are gonna dry up because the us govt is lending trillions of bucket loads money that doesn't even exist yet. and that better be paid back.

China's our biggest creditor. Do you know what happens when a country can't pay it's debt back to the lender country? The lender country goes to war with the debtor to sieze the equal value back by force whether it be through it through land or anything else.

And i think they're already planning an invasion.

N. korea's already testing nukes and sent satillites up into space and so has Iran, and China's already starting to act defiant. Nuclear India's another one of our debtors. they hate pakistan, our allies, what do you think they'll do? the second biggest county on the planet...

i go off on a huge tangent my apologies, just could stop typing..

but i believed back did steer people to bad loans. not just blacks. i think White people are going through this foreclosure crisis more than black people are.

1. When is the last time the U.S. Government could not pay one of it's debtors?

2. No, a country does not go to war to retrieve the due credit. Name one time that has happened.

3. Planning on invasion? That's borderline ludicrous.

4. North Korea is China's best pal now? When did this happen. Iran sent satellites into space or are you saying Iran is testing nukes? Cause neither is true.

5. China is acting defiant now by not making an official statement or recognizing international waters.

6. Dude, India is probably just as big if not bigger of an ally than Pakistan. I'd say that there is far less friction between our two countries than with the US and Pakistan.

7. The second biggest country on the planet is NOT India. it is Canada. I knew what you meant. I'm just bustin' yo balls.

8. That was my question form earlier. Representational, or relative to the population numbers, is there REALLY more blacks suffering from bad loans? That would answer the question. If the same per capita is observed, by race, for this bad loan incident, then the NAACP has nothing to stand on.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
aren't 90% to 98% of the all C.E.O.'s C.F.O.'s and C.O.O.'s of all (major) american business; banks (big and small), of all these companies White?

They produce, market, and advertise puedo pro-consumer products and servies that they get for pennies on the dollar off the backs

Jesus, Mary and Joseph!

Is there ANYTHING in the life of black people in America that is NOT deliberately caused by whites? Seriously?

It's like black people are affected by things no white, Chinese, Indian, Arab or a Jew is affected by. It's like the rest of us just float about in alternate universe unaffected by corporations, opression and economic difficulties, while you're the only ones that are constantly being taken advantage of?

Its like every person not originating from Sub Saharan Africa is in on opressing balck people.

Originally posted by dadudemon

8. That was my question form earlier. Representational, or relative to the population numbers, is there REALLY more blacks suffering from bad loans? That would answer the question. If the same per capita is observed, by race, for this bad loan incident, then the NAACP has nothing to stand on.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


That's not what I meant.


I was referring to that as a function of number a applicants, as I mentioned earlier. However, I was the confused as I hurriedly typed that. My bad.


If more African Americans were turned away then the white numbers on a per capita basis, then that number means nothing...it just means more African Americans, per capitia, applied for those same type of loans and were correctly denied. I believe that this is what the defense would be building a defense around so there should be some numbers somewhere.




What about credit?


Since I've worked on the business part of the world for a long time before getting into IT, I can say with surety that African Americans, per capita, have worse credit than say, whites. (And black women, more so than ANY demographic (male, female, asian, hispanic, ANY demographic that you could probably think of), when they don't understand their bill, they will try to say the bill is wrong and that they are being incorrectly charged. If they don't understand the bill, they will argue for hours about it. The "strong black woman"(which can apply to other races WITHOUT having to do with race.....it is just a name I've given it) persona is the root of this problem as the same traits in these women are present in other women from other races such as feminists...The same type of persona present in others causes these same type of argument. (However, the "strong black woman" type is much more present in African American women.)

This is all subjective to my own perceptions in the business world and is only of US customers, as those are the only customers I've worked with.

Now, this isn't as anecdotal as it seems. Speaking with other people from businesses, they echo the same sentiments. They (African Americans) also, as I noticed, have more delinquent accounts than average. This is, in my opinion, cultural. This could be related to this loan problem. Maybe, just maybe, African Americans need to adjust their culture. Some may say, "but, altering that culture is to change the very essence of what it means to be African Amercan and all that entail being part of that subculture." K, and here's my response:



"F*ck that aspects of that culture. F*ck it very much. "



Back a little more on topic:

I would assume that more African Americans were turned away, per capita, than any other group. Does this mean that there was a disproportional, by race, application for sub prime loans? Then it becomes a question of chicken and egg: Did the African Americans seek out the loans based on "happy" stories from friends and family and then the loan officers predatorily seek out the African Americans (as well as other race demographics), or did the predatory loaning start with African Americans and then they spread the news amongst themselves? That would be the REAL question. Cue meme discussion.

But, yeah, thanks Red Nemesis for pointing out my idea not being correctly explained. I take for granted that people have read all my other posts concerning what I've posted. Very arrogant of me, and I don't even realize I'm doing it, sometimes.





Edit- I just reread what you posted. I still don't get it. How do they know they were steered, disproportionally, into subprime loans?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Iran sent satellites into space or are you saying Iran is testing nukes? Cause neither is true.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7866357.stm

the former is true

Originally posted by inimalist
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7866357.stm

the former is true


I'm happier that you actually read my post than to know that Iran launched a satellite. Strangely enough, I would like to see Iran do better to increase their technologies.


I mean, really.....fear mongering about potentially building an ICBM. When you have enough money, is not very difficult at all to build the ICBM. They payload, on the other hand, could be more difficult.

Isn't this just the "NATO" countries' media producing unnecessary fear mongering for the western readers?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Its like every person not originating from Sub Saharan Africa is in on opressing black people.

Yes.

Originally posted by dadudemon



Edit- I just reread what you posted. I still don't get it. How do they know they were steered, disproportionally, into subprime loans?

Black Americans would not have known until after the fact. What is "cultural" about Black Americans and their finanaces is that do not manage their money well in general. Historically speaking, there is plenty one could point to explain why this is the case.

It is not a regular occurence to see a middle class black neighborhood that is doing well. My mother has three college degrees and my father has two. Both of them still do stupid things with money. They are not in danger of losing any assets, but they should not be spending at the rate that they do (although I'm sure the "economy" does not care).

Black Americans do not talk with each other about how to handle finances. They make money and spend money. There is little discourse about how to allocate resources. I have seen that white people and Asians, in particular, are very vocal with each other about what to do to make money, and what to do with the money once you make it.

The loans took advantage of people who did not know WTF they were getting into so two factors come into play:

1) It had been well documented that before recently that black Americans were not given mortages in certain neighborhoods because of their race. Various studies had been done to say this was becoming a problem (I would link some but I'm on dial up right now...)

2) You have black people who didn't read much besides signing the dotted line, but this is a problem regardless of race.

* And just out of curiousity, what were you getting @ with the whole strong black woman thing? I got lost.

E.G. Spinners.

Originally posted by chithappens
Black Americans would not have known until after the fact. What is "cultural" about Black Americans and their finanaces is that do not manage their money well in general. Historically speaking, there is plenty one could point to explain why this is the case.

It is not a regular occurence to see a middle class black neighborhood that is doing well. My mother has three college degrees and my father has two. Both of them still do stupid things with money. They are not in danger of losing any assets, but they should not be spending at the rate that they do (although I'm sure the "economy" does not care).

Black Americans do not talk with each other about how to handle finances. They make money and spend money. There is little discourse about how to allocate resources. I have seen that white people and Asians, in particular, are very vocal with each other about what to do to make money, and what to do with the money once you make it.

The loans took advantage of people who did not know WTF they were getting into so two factors come into play:

1) It had been well documented that before recently that black Americans were not given mortages in certain neighborhoods because of their race. Various studies had been done to say this was becoming a problem (I would link some but I'm on dial up right now...)

2) You have black people who didn't read much besides signing the dotted line, but this is a problem regardless of race.

* And just out of curiousity, what were you getting @ with the whole strong black woman thing? I got lost.


Cool. That does help me better understand things.

And, yeah, my parents took almost their whole lives to finally get to the point of managing their money properly, something that I learned in less than a year as a wee laddy.



The strong black women persona...you know....the kind that...

"I will beat dat ass if you talk back one mo time."

"You best be gettin' yo playa ass out of my face befo I hasta beat it!"


That type. The type that has to make it a point to make sure everyone around them knows that they don't take shit from anyone. The kind that is all too quick to argue about a bill being wrong. Do you know the kind?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Cool. That does help me better understand things.

And, yeah, my parents took almost their whole lives to finally get to the point of managing their money properly, something that I learned in less than a year as a wee laddy.



The strong black women persona...you know....the kind that...

"I will beat dat ass if you talk back one mo time."

"You best be gettin' yo playa ass out of my face befo I hasta beat it!"


That type. The type that has to make it a point to make sure everyone around them knows that they don't take shit from anyone. The kind that is all too quick to argue about a bill being wrong. Do you know the kind?

YI've just been thinking about this and my parents' finance.

My mother has supernatural powers when it comes to controlling her finances. Its like she has a 'finance power gene' I failed to inherit.
I have NO idea how she does it. None whatsoever.
My mother has payed off her house, no mortgage, her last car payment will be in May and is in no debt whatsoever.
She has never used her ridiculously large overdraft and will go out of her way not to use it.

On the other hand, scamming my mother out of even 20 pence is mission impossible.

Without creating stereotypes (although they all come from somewhere, don't they?), I believe black people have ability to manage their money as good as anyone.
And again, this type of thing is very individual. Some balck people may not be able to manage their finance, while others do.
And prioritising plays large part in all of this. If you're struggling with utility bills, loans and mortgage, you cannot afford designer clothes, pay-per-view wrestling or cable or whatever, and you may not be able to afford mobile phone.

It's just how it is.

People can't be buying luxurious things than complaining how economy is working against them.

Yeah, I do know that kind and hate it for anyone who has had to deal with them. I'm going to be a teacher and I've seen it more than once when I'm tutoring at different levels. Some kid will be acting an ass and then all the f-bombs drop along with some bullshit about how the kid is acting up because the teacher is not doing their job.

For those who have no clue what I mean, it's the black, female version of a baseball manager who walks out to argue a call like a rambling fool. The louder the volume, the more right they are.

But yeah on the other topic, I don't see this changing for a while. While loans should not be given to those who can't afford it (which is what regulation was supposed to protect the economy from), it is up to the potential mortage holder to actually be sure that they can own up to their end of the bargin at their current status.

Obviously, there is something really ****ed up going on though if this many people defaulted on loans. Something was worded really weird though cause I find it hard to believe that so many people just bought without reading at all. I hope some stats come out soon.

It is also worth mentioning that the NAACP has never done anything to help civil rights. The NAACP is just around to make a big deal of everything. NAACP was around to talk about how the federal government should abolish the word ******, to say black NBA players get more whistles than white players, etc. **** The NAACP. They always do this shit and never even have legitimate reasons. Work on how to help black Americans who are in financial trouble and stop trying to divide people even more. Pisses me off to no end.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
YI've just been thinking about this and my parents' finance.

My mother has supernatural powers when it comes to controlling her finances. Its like she has a 'finance power gene' I failed to inherit.
I have NO idea how she does it. None whatsoever.
My mother has payed off her house, no mortgage, her last car payment will be in May and is in no debt whatsoever.
She has never used her ridiculously large overdraft and will go out of her way not to use it.

On the other hand, scamming my mother out of even 20 pence is mission impossible.

Without creating stereotypes (although they all come from somewhere, don't they?), I believe black people have ability to manage their money as good as anyone.
And again, this type of thing is very individual. Some balck people may not be able to manage their finance, while others do.
And prioritising plays large part in all of this. If you're struggling with utility bills, loans and mortgage, you cannot afford designer close, pay-per-view wrestling or cable or whatever, and you may not be able to afford mobile phone.

It's just how it is.

People can't be buying luxurious things than complaining how economy is working against them.

I agree but I don't think everyone was buying luxurious houses.

Again, black Americans generally do not spend money well. Hip hop is a actualy a good way to explain how this works. For example, if you get money, you just spend it like crazy, hardly no saving. A lot of black athlethes are the same. All these people have are other people with next to shit who want to leech off of them, not someone around trying to help them.

Hell, even I'm a "traitor" for going to college. Me getting an education will never be celebrated by most that I grew up with. That's the culture.

Just one point, I wasn't refering to black people exclusivelly when I said buying luxurous things - I wasn't very clear in my message.

Anyway, I somewhat fail to understand the culture you talk about (I'm not from around here, so you'll have to fill me in on few things). If there is an oppertunity, why not take it?

I applaude your decision to go to collage! More people, if they have oppertunity and want it, should go.
It just openes a lot of doors for careers one didn't even think would be doing.

P.S I am hoping to become a teacher as well - even though my degree and MA had nothing to do with that.

I read this again, and a couple things stuck out as being not quite right.

Originally posted by dadudemon


If more African Americans were turned away then the white numbers on a per capita basis, then that number means nothing...it just means more African Americans, per capitia, applied for those same type of loans and were correctly denied. I believe that this is what the defense would be building a defense around so there should be some numbers somewhere.
Here you may have simply misarticulated your points or simply suffered a case of dyslexia: The NAACP is upset at too many bad loans to blacks, not too many denied. It isn't a systematic denial of rights, it is a systematic con job (they argue).

When adjusted for disparities in economic trends (like the huge over representation of blacks in the lower economic classes), the statistics show that black borrowers were more likely to be given a sub-prime loan than white people in the same situation. This indicates (to the NAACP) that banks deliberately gave black people bad loans.


Originally posted by dadudemon

What about credit?


Since I've worked on the business part of the world for a long time before getting into IT, I can say with surety that African Americans, per capita, have worse credit than say, whites. (And black women, more so than ANY demographic (male, female, asian, hispanic, ANY demographic that you could probably think of), when they don't understand their bill, they will try to say the bill is wrong and that they are being incorrectly charged. If they don't understand the bill, they will argue for hours about it. The "strong black woman"(which can apply to other races WITHOUT having to do with race.....it is just a name I've given it) persona is the root of this problem as the same traits in these women are present in other women from other races such as feminists...The same type of persona present in others causes these same type of argument. (However, the "strong black woman" type is much more present in African American women.)

This is all subjective to my own perceptions in the business world and is only of US customers, as those are the only customers I've worked with.
It seems reasonable that blacks would tend to have lower credit scores, as a whole, than other groups. Blacks are over represented in the poor community and unless I'm missing something (like a basic understanding of how credit scores are figured) poverty would have a causal relationship to bad credit scores. (A credit card bill is a lot lower priority than food, gas and water. Given the choice between lights or paying 'now' most people, even the most educated, would opt to maintain services while continuing to defer payments.)

So:
Poverty leads to poor credit scores
Blacks tend to have a disproportionate number of poor people
Blacks therefore would tend to have a disproportionate number of poor credit ratings

Am I wrong?

Originally posted by dadudemon

Now, this isn't as anecdotal as it seems. Speaking with other people from businesses, they echo the same sentiments. They (African Americans) also, as I noticed, have more delinquent accounts than average. This is, in my opinion, cultural. This could be related to this loan problem. Maybe, just maybe, African Americans need to adjust their culture. Some may say, "but, altering that culture is to change the very essence of what it means to be African Amercan and all that entail being part of that subculture." K, and here's my response:



"F*ck that aspects of that culture. F*ck it very much. "
See, here is another place where you lose me. You are blaming 'black culture' for the relatively large numbers of poor credit scores and defaults on loans rather than the more direct sociological trends:
Black males tend to drop out of school more than any other ethnicity.


Black people are more likely to drop out and therefore make less money.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104552.html
A greater percentage of the black population lies below 5,000$/year than any other (tracked) ethnicity as of 2006. Also, Blacks had the lowest median income of any tracked group.

We know that blacks have less money. This will only mean anything if I can link poverty to lack of education:


This is talking about poor students: they cannot be poor because they slacked in school or were simply incompetent. The poverty is causing the shortcomings in performance.


There. To blame the large numbers of defaulted loans and poor credit scores within the black community on the culture of a 'strong (black) woman' is patently absurd.

Of course, if you wanted to damn the intellectually oppressive culture of the lowest economic classes, rather than the strong individualistic characteristics of these cultures I'd probably join in. If you continue along this route however I can and will shout "Cultural Imperialism" at the top of my lungs. Let's not make a scene, ok?


Originally posted by dadudemon

Back a little more on topic:

I would assume that more African Americans were turned away, per capita, than any other group. Does this mean that there was a disproportional, by race, application for sub prime loans? Then it becomes a question of chicken and egg: Did the African Americans seek out the loans based on "happy" stories from friends and family and then the loan officers predatorily seek out the African Americans (as well as other race demographics), or did the predatory loaning start with African Americans and then they spread the news amongst themselves? That would be the REAL question. Cue meme discussion.
I don't think that you get to 'cue' anything.

This article does not actually say how many were turned away. We can't really ascertain those numbers without divine insight or pure guessing (or extra research, I suppose). The article says that a black person was more likely to get a bad loan than a white person in the same situation. I don't know if I'm comfortable saying that there were just more black loans (and more opportunities for bad black loans) than white loans because blacks are a minority. While there is a systematic trend towards black poverty, there are still fewer poor black people than poor white people.

Wikipedia claims 221.3 million White people. The census Bureau claims 8.2 percent poverty among that group. This translates to 18,146,600 poor white people. Those same sites call for 40.9 million black people and 24.5 percent, respectively. This translates to 10,020,500 poor black people. 18,146,600 >>>>> 10,020,500. By a lot. I doubt that more black people getting bad loans caused the discrepancy in distribution.



Originally posted by dadudemon

But, yeah, thanks Red Nemesis for pointing out my idea not being correctly explained. I take for granted that people have read all my other posts concerning what I've posted. Very arrogant of me, and I don't even realize I'm doing it, sometimes.
I'm going to have to remember that you aren't the jewish texan that I usually debate here. You'll have to forgive me if I make assumptions about you.

But no problem. Srsly.





Originally posted by dadudemon

Edit- I just reread what you posted. I still don't get it. How do they know they were steered, disproportionally, into subprime loans?
They clearly adjusted their formulas or data input for the economic similarities that they were looking for. Computers can make some crazy correlations and so some sh*t. I saw a machine counting cells. Srsly. CELLS. It was also sorting them by the amount of DNA in them.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Just one point, I wasn't refering to black people exclusivelly when I said buying luxurous things - I wasn't very clear in my message.

Anyway, I somewhat fail to understand the culture you talk about (I'm not from around here, so you'll have to fill me in on few things). If there is an oppertunity, why not take it?

I applaude your decision to go to collage! More people, if they have oppertunity and want it, should go.
It just openes a lot of doors for careers one didn't even think would be doing.

P.S I am hoping to become a teacher as well - even though my degree and MA had nothing to do with that.

I didn't think you meant black folks only. No big :P.

It's really easy to put to say one should just take the oppurtunity that's right there. I agree, but I sympathethic to those who don't just jump @ it because the only reason that one would not do it is because they don't have that support system. My early adolsence was in West Side Chicago when the black gang wars were first being discussed in the U.S. as a serious problem. I saw Rodney King sort of shit every other day and I fear police to this day. But I had parents and grandparents who nurtured me. I was lucky.

There is a huge divide in black America between the "educated" and the uneducated (otherwise referred to as the niggas). Check out my signature, click under my random thoughts blog and check the entry titled "Break Bread, then hand them a book" cause it can explain stuff in way more detail (I would just copy and paste some stuff but I can't read it from my mom's PC for some reason ).

I'm really glad I'm in college. I'm learning Japanese also and looks like I might be an oppurtunity to spend a semester there for free! By the way, what sort of teaching are you interested in?

Your youtube thingy is not working. It says invalid username.

Originally posted by chithappens


Hell, even I'm a "traitor" for going to college. Me getting an education will never be celebrated by most that I grew up with. That's the culture.
I said **** the culture years ago, when they were all aginst me for being different and called a poser because I wear martial arts uniforms as normal clothes, listen to metal, straighten my hair, and am of a pagan faith.

Black people just need to do what they want or feel they need instead of worrying about what the others in the culture will say.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Your youtube thingy is not working. It says invalid username.

Hmm, I'll hvae to fix that when I get back on campus. Everything @ home on dial up is such a hassle...

Originally posted by jalek moye
I said **** the culture years ago, when they were all aginst me for being different and called a poser because I wear martial arts uniforms as normal clothes, listen to metal, straighten my hair, and am of a pagan faith.

Black people just need to do what they want or feel they need instead of worrying about what the others in the culture will say.

If that's all you are around then it's all you know to respect. No different than a white super conservative Christian who still feels that Bin Laden and Hussein were bar buddies. We all have to face that in our lives to some degree, no matter our background.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I read this again, and a couple things stuck out as being not quite right.


Here you may have simply misarticulated your points or simply suffered a case of dyslexia: The NAACP is upset at too many bad loans to blacks, not too many denied. It isn't a systematic denial of rights, it is a systematic con job (they argue).

When adjusted for disparities in economic trends (like the huge over representation of blacks in the lower economic classes), the statistics show that black borrowers were more likely to be given a sub-prime loan than white people in the same situation. This indicates (to the NAACP) that banks deliberately gave black people bad loans.

No, what I said was correct. It was speculative.

If there was an increase in loans GRANTED to African Americans during this period, in order for the banking industry to provide a justification of innocence, they would have to present evidence of an increase in APPLICATIONS nad produce evidence of a proportional increase in DENIALS. (Emphasis added to show where my focus was. I assure you, I'm not yelling. lol )

Also, I would suspect a greater increase of denials if there was an increase of application. But the deciding factor is number proportions. If denials stayed in proportion, per capita, then there is nothing to see here, folks. Move along. (lol)

However, I know that that is not the case. More bad loans were given out during this period. SO the real measurement would have to be the average loan recipient's "metrics" measured against the average African Americans "metrics". That would be the best way to see if this is more whining or if it holds weight.



Originally posted by Red Nemesis
It seems reasonable that blacks would tend to have lower credit scores, as a whole, than other groups. Blacks are over represented in the poor community and unless I'm missing something (like a basic understanding of how credit scores are figured) poverty would have a causal relationship to bad credit scores. (A credit card bill is a lot lower priority than food, gas and water. Given the choice between lights or paying 'now' most people, even the most educated, would opt to maintain services while continuing to defer payments.)

So:
Poverty leads to poor credit scores
Blacks tend to have a disproportionate number of poor people
Blacks therefore would tend to have a disproportionate number of poor credit ratings

Am I wrong?

So, where does personal responsibility come in and blaming it on social phenomena end?

You can be very poor and still have excellent credit. You just have to manage your debts properly, which has nothing to do with education. If your bill is due on date XX, you pay your bill before date XX. Now, there are other factors such as exceeding a third of your credit line or having a high debt to income ratio, however, if one just pays their bills on time, every time without going overboard on credit lines and canceling credit lines left and right, a very poor person could build a very nice credit score.

Trust me. I made less than 20K a year and had a credit score over 760 with all three major credit bureaus, as a 20 year old. I came form a "poor family".


Originally posted by Red Nemesis
See, here is another place where you lose me. You are blaming 'black culture' for the relatively large numbers of poor credit scores and defaults on loans rather than the more direct sociological trends:
Black males tend to drop out of school more than any other ethnicity.


Okay...

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Black people are more likely to drop out and therefore make less money.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104552.html
A greater percentage of the black population lies below 5,000$/year than any other (tracked) ethnicity as of 2006. Also, Blacks had the lowest median income of any tracked group.

Okay...

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
We know that blacks have less money. This will only mean anything if I can link poverty to lack of education:


This is talking about poor students: they cannot be poor because they slacked in school or were simply incompetent. The poverty is causing the shortcomings in performance.

Okay...


Originally posted by Red Nemesis
There. To blame the large numbers of defaulted loans and poor credit scores within the black community on the culture of a 'strong (black) woman' is patently absurd.

Wait wait..

You just spent quite a bit of time proving my point about African Americans...so I'm confused. How is a poor credit score any ones fault but the owner of the credit score? You can tell me about it being a "white" system all you want...but it's rather absurd to blame a poor credit score on anyone but the person. The bad loan is the fault of two parties: the recipient and the lender.

And the women diatribe was pretty much unrelated to what I was talking about. I don't really get back on track until I start talking about delinquent accounts. Again, really just an unrelated diatribe.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Of course, if you wanted to damn the intellectually oppressive culture of the lowest economic classes, rather than the strong individualistic characteristics of these cultures I'd probably join in. If you continue along this route however I can and will shout "Cultural Imperialism" at the top of my lungs. Let's not make a scene, ok?

What does this have to do with your all too relevant points on African Americans failing themselves as a result of their very only social behaviors and social norms?

That's what I thought.

Now, we both agree that there is a malfunction in African American culture in general...as it concerns money and it's many different associations (money as a function of credit score, money as a function of savings, money as a function of education, etc.), just what should be done is where we probably disagree. I think the African American culture needs an overhaul concerning money and education. One or two successful African Americans won't be enough.

However, I think Obama is an excellent example. He is spending like a mad man, but I like him as a person. When asked if he smoked weed and if he inhaled, he said, "yeah, that's kinda the point."


Maybe it will take the Hispanic immigrants pushing them further into economic and educational deficiencies (relative to the rest of the US and world) before they experience cultural paradigm shift.



Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I don't think that you get to 'cue' anything.

This article does not actually say how many were turned away. We can't really ascertain those numbers without divine insight or pure guessing (or extra research, I suppose).

That information should exist. Those records are very necessary to gauge business volume, trending analysis (still, business), staffing, etc.

Keeping the records on file for previously turned away applicants is also an excellent way to pick right where they left off, with the customer, in case they come back with an additional proposal.

I would assume that this data is part of the defense against the accusations, if those accusations are even being given the time of day. I say that last part because the type of whining associated with the accusation may not even be dignified in court. It may just be ignored. OR, it could be more discrimination...not given this case very much time because they simply don't care about that people.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
The article says that a black person was more likely to get a bad loan than a white person in the same situation. I don't know if I'm comfortable saying that there were just more black loans (and more opportunities for bad black loans) than white loans because blacks are a minority. While there is a systematic trend towards black poverty, there are still fewer poor black people than poor white people.

Well, it says "more likely", right?

I want to see numbers. I want to see total applicants. A distribution based on loan qualification factors, loans granted and denied based on race demographics, and the amounts of the loans granted based on race demographics.

If that data is presented, then we can draw conclusions.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Wikipedia claims 221.3 million White people. The census Bureau claims 8.2 percent poverty among that group. This translates to 18,146,600 poor white people. Those same sites call for 40.9 million black people and 24.5 percent, respectively. This translates to 10,020,500 poor black people. 18,146,600 >>>>> 10,020,500. By a lot. I doubt that more black people getting bad loans caused the discrepancy in distribution.


No, I think those numbers are telling. If, in equal numbers, randomly, African Americans and say, whites, applied for loans at the same value, and the lenders gave out loans to a percentage of all applicants, then we would see MORE loans given to bad applicants on the African American side of the race coin. From what I read about the loan practices.....they were going for a specific volume in lending. Granting on the fly like there was no tomorrow.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm going to have to remember that you aren't the jewish texan that I usually debate here. You'll have to forgive me if I make assumptions about you.

But no problem. Srsly.

Cool.

In all honesty, I don't think we disagree, all that much.

I think where we disagree is what should be done.

I like to take the "Zen" approach and say that the change has to come from within the african american subculture and not from the government.

To put it another way, America shouldn't change and/or adapt for African Americans, African Americans should change and/or adapt for America.

It would seem Chithappens is in agreement with me. In fact, he knows exactly what I'm referring to and he is even harder on African Americans than I am. However, he is like that for good reason. Here he is, bustin' his butt, whilst his race is still wallowing in mediocrity or worse. Then they have the audacity to blame their problems on others while he is doing the very thing they say they can't because "the man has got them down" or something. On top of that, they make snide comments when someone starts to make it in the world...such as getting education or getting a nice job. How is that helpful at all?

I mean...really....12 million illegal immigrants can't be wrong. Maybe they should work 2 and 3 jobs or work full time and go to school full time like the rest of the poor people trying to make it in this world. There is more and better opportunities for African Americans who want to make than there are for whitey. This is fact.

I have much greater respect for someone genuinely trying and little to no respect for someone complaining and doing little to nothing. You can only blame so much on "the man" before it is your own damn fault.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
They clearly adjusted their formulas or data input for the economic similarities that they were looking for. Computers can make some crazy correlations and so some sh*t. I saw a machine counting cells. Srsly. CELLS. It was also sorting them by the amount of DNA in them.

Sorry. My bad. My question was rhetorical. That smart assery of mine doesn't come through without tone of voice.

Again, my bad.

I was implying that the article was bias because they drew conclusions that shouldn't have been drawn without the appropriate data. This is the original of my "confusion." You can make data say anything you want...depending on which data you use, and how you use it.

Originally posted by jalek moye
I said **** the culture years ago, when they were all aginst me for being different and called a poser because I wear martial arts uniforms as normal clothes, listen to metal, straighten my hair, and am of a pagan faith.

Black people just need to do what they want or feel they need instead of worrying about what the others in the culture will say.

Well, that's just being an individual. If your peers want to get you down just for choosing to look and act a certain way, then they are stupid buttholes. (lol)


You seem like cool people to me. I fail to see why anyone would hate someone for liking Hulk and his descendants. (yes, I noticed.)



I've got extra respect for Chithappens for working hard despite what his peers tell him. No one can take that hard work that you or he has done already. That's something anyone should be proud of.

Originally posted by dadudemon


To put it another way, America shouldn't change and/or adapt for African Americans, African Americans should change and/or adapt for America.

It would seem Chithappens is in agreement with me. In fact, he knows exactly what I'm referring to and he is even harder on African Americans than I am. However, he is like that for good reason. Here he is, bustin' his butt, whilst his race is still wallowing in mediocrity or worse. Then they have the audacity to blame their problems on others while he is doing the very thing they say they can't because "the man has got them down" or something. On top of that, they make snide comments when someone starts to make it in the world...such as getting education or getting a nice job. How is that helpful at all?


The problem I have with the NAACP and other similar organizations is that they bring attention to random tidbits of injustice without doing anything to alleviate the problem. It's not a bad idea to bring this issue to the forefront if it is truly a possibility that Black Americans were purposely given bad loans, but when all you are doing is saying i.e. "the man trying to screw us over" then everyone should have a problem with that. Seeing as how this is a democracy, it is the job of one culture to adjust to the majority and hope that the laws of the land prevail given that their intent to respect the rights of the individuals. Fiscal responsibility is an indiviual task.

Regarding the culture, I still feel for those who don't "make it." For example, I have a cousin who could draw manga with his pubic hair and make it rival anything from Berserk or other great art like Vagabond, but right now he is unemployed and has a child on the way. The guy is a visionary poet and a great people person... he ****ing up, but he never had the same oppurtunities I had. His parents were not as successful as mine and he never moved outside of the less fortunate areas of the city. It's one of the things that made me decide to become a teacher. Things happen... Sucks ass though

Originally posted by chithappens
Regarding the culture, I still feel for those who don't "make it." For example, I have a cousin who could draw manga with his pubic hair and make it rival anything from Berserk or other great art like Vagabond, but right now he is unemployed and has a child on the way. The guy is a visionary poet and a great people person... he ****ing up, but he never had the same oppurtunities I had. His parents were not as successful as mine and he never moved outside of the less fortunate areas of the city. It's one of the things that made me decide to become a teacher. Things happen... Sucks ass though

If only we had a culture that embraced artistic expression as much as it does the dollar.

Originally posted by inimalist
If only we had a culture that embraced artistic expression as much as it does the dollar.

I remember reading that Soviet Russia opposed both equally, at least in theory.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I remember reading that Soviet Russia opposed both equally, at least in theory.

in soviet russia, theory opposes you

That was funny,Yakov.

Originally posted by chithappens
Regarding the culture, I still feel for those who don't "make it." For example, I have a cousin who could draw manga with his pubic hair and make it rival anything from Berserk or other great art like Vagabond, but right now he is unemployed and has a child on the way. The guy is a visionary poet and a great people person... he ****ing up, but he never had the same oppurtunities I had. His parents were not as successful as mine and he never moved outside of the less fortunate areas of the city. It's one of the things that made me decide to become a teacher. Things happen... Sucks ass though

Damn. Well. That sounds quite crappy.

If he can draw manga really well, he could probably work in Japan. (However, he shouldn't expect to get paid beyond 60K) He may want to work in animation for anime. Being able to draw and getting paid to draw are two different things. I mean, his only other option is to invent and write his own manga/comic and get a publisher/distributor like DC, Marvel, etc.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Damn. Well. That sounds quite crappy.

If he can draw manga really well, he could probably work in Japan. (However, he shouldn't expect to get paid beyond 60K) He may want to work in animation for anime. Being able to draw and getting paid to draw are two different things. I mean, his only other option is to invent and write his own manga/comic and get a publisher/distributor like DC, Marvel, etc.

As with many things, it's simply who you know. I'm a Creative Writing concentration so I'm hoping that I can find a gig that can spawn something for him also. Time will tell.

There are a lot of stories like his by all sorts of people. One thing I agree about with Obama is that education must be a main priority for all Americans and then this sort of thing won't be commonplace (weither it be lost of great talent or being fiscally irresponsible).

Originally posted by chithappens
As with many things, it's simply who you know. I'm a Creative Writing concentration so I'm hoping that I can find a gig that can spawn something for him also. Time will tell.

There are a lot of stories like his by all sorts of people. One thing I agree about with Obama is that education must be a main priority for all Americans and then this sort of thing won't be commonplace (weither it be lost of great talent or being fiscally irresponsible).

I agree with Obama on that fully, as well. He knows how important an education is and how much more of a competitive edge it gives Americans.

Edit- Saying and doing are two different things, though.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree with Obama on that fully, as well. He knows how important an education is and how much more of a competitive edge it gives Americans.

Edit- Saying and doing are two different things, though.

Yeah, but trust me, people in education are just glad Bush is out of office. He cut education each of the past six years and No Child Left Behind was a disaster in it's current implementation. If Obama does a fifth of what he says, a lot of educators will be happy.

Even now, I'm tutoring these kids at a high school for an AP English class. What they don't know is that based on their performance in this essay assestment in three weeks will determine if the school will be taken over by the state.

Obama has said he plans to give every college student $2500 scholarship automatically which would be lovely cause my school goes up 9 % on tuition next semester.

My state, Tennessee, has been #48-50 in terms of education for the past 5 years. Any change is good. They celebrated not being #49 a few years back .

Oh. Ok.

Originally posted by jalek moye
I said **** the culture years ago, when they were all aginst me for being different and called a poser because I wear martial arts uniforms as normal clothes, listen to metal, straighten my hair, and am of a pagan faith.

Black people just need to do what they want or feel they need instead of worrying about what the others in the culture will say.

Looks like were into similar stuff. I wouldnt straighten my hair though. What pagan faith, wicca?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Looks like were into similar stuff. I wouldnt straighten my hair though. What pagan faith, wicca?

Euch

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Looks like were into similar stuff. I wouldnt straighten my hair though. What pagan faith, wicca?
the closest thing to it would be asatru

I straighten my hair so i can spike it.

form my experiance black culture tends to not like too much diversity in its people. I still have no idea how i turned out like i did

Originally posted by jalek moye
the closest thing to it would be asatru


Same here actually except I could consider myself to be actually heathen.

Originally posted by jalek moye

form my experiance black culture tends to not like too much diversity in its people. I still have no idea how i turned out like i did

I dunno man but I serioulsy get the feeling you havent experienced alot of racism. Its obvoulsy due to the racism that black people have had to put up with over the generations. Obvously alot has changed but people dont change overnight.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Same here actually except I could consider myself to be actually heathen.



I dunno man but I serioulsy get the feeling you havent experienced alot of racism. Its obvoulsy due to the racism that black people have had to put up with over the generations. Obvously alot has changed but people dont change overnight.
I don't cling to the titles I just use asatru because the term heathen is insulting.

Nope all my issues have been with my own race. The only encounter i've had with racis was one I had to sit next to a neo nazi in highschool. While people where i live say its a racist place i have really seen anything to indicate that other then people thinking that it hasnt changed.

Originally posted by jalek moye
I don't cling to the titles I just use asatru because the term heathen is insulting.

Nope all my issues have been with my own race. The only encounter i've had with racis was one I had to sit next to a neo nazi in highschool. While people where i live say its a racist place i have really seen anything to indicate that other then people thinking that it hasnt changed.

Well, from what I can see, you're a pretty nice guy and easy to get along with. Your type rarely should get any sort of racism. Only idiots like that Neo Nazi will ever be racist in front of you.




On the other hand, I have experienced racism (black against white) on multiple occasions...but I don't care after a while because people as young as your parents had to put up with really crappy racism. So I can understand some latent white-hate from decades ago. It's not right...but I understand why.


Oh, and, I think some of your hair styles are awesome.

Originally posted by jalek moye
I don't cling to the titles I just use asatru because the term heathen is insulting.

Not really. The word heathen was used because alot of them used to live on the 'heath' and unfortunately it turned into an insult. Alot of people actually prefered to be called heathen. Yeah if you describe yourself as heathen people will think you're taking the piss.

Giving your belief a name isnt clinging to beliefs. Titles are used to identify things. Its like if you say you're pagan thats very very broad and could mean a whole load of different things not that theres anything wrong with that.

Originally posted by jalek moye

Nope all my issues have been with my own race. The only encounter i've had with racis was one I had to sit next to a neo nazi in highschool. While people where i live say its a racist place i have really seen anything to indicate that other then people thinking that it hasnt changed.

Well thats exactly what I mean. Dont get me wrong though im not saying that its ok for black people to be like that im just explaining the origin of the attitude.




Originally posted by dadudemon


On the other hand, I have experienced racism (black against white) on multiple occasions...but I don't care after a while because people as young as your parents had to put up with really crappy racism. So I can understand some latent white-hate from decades ago. It's not right...but I understand why.

by cling i meant i dont really care. since i dont exact have all the same beliefs. I take either one depending on how its used.