The coming evangelical collapse

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Robtard
I found this to be a decent read.

The coming evangelical collapse
An anti-Christian chapter in Western history is about to begin. But out of the ruins, a new vitality and integrity will rise.
By Michael Spencer

from the March 10, 2009 edition

Oneida, Ky. - We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.

Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.

This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.

Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth. But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close.

Why is this going to happen?

1. Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society.

The evangelical investment in moral, social, and political issues has depleted our resources and exposed our weaknesses. Being against gay marriage and being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can't articulate the Gospel with any coherence. We fell for the trap of believing in a cause more than a faith.

2. We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught. Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it. Our young people have deep beliefs about the culture war, but do not know why they should obey scripture, the essentials of theology, or the experience of spiritual discipline and community. Coming generations of Christians are going to be monumentally ignorant and unprepared for culture-wide pressures.

3. There are three kinds of evangelical churches today: consumer-driven megachurches, dying churches, and new churches whose future is fragile. Denominations will shrink, even vanish, while fewer and fewer evangelical churches will survive and thrive.

4. Despite some very successful developments in the past 25 years, Christian education has not produced a product that can withstand the rising tide of secularism. Evangelicalism has used its educational system primarily to staff its own needs and talk to itself.

5. The confrontation between cultural secularism and the faith at the core of evangelical efforts to "do good" is rapidly approaching. We will soon see that the good Evangelicals want to do will be viewed as bad by so many, and much of that work will not be done. Look for ministries to take on a less and less distinctively Christian face in order to survive.

6. Even in areas where Evangelicals imagine themselves strong (like the Bible Belt), we will find a great inability to pass on to our children a vital evangelical confidence in the Bible and the importance of the faith.

7. The money will dry up.

What will be left?

•Expect evangelicalism to look more like the pragmatic, therapeutic, church-growth oriented megachurches that have defined success. Emphasis will shift from doctrine to relevance, motivation, and personal success – resulting in churches further compromised and weakened in their ability to pass on the faith.

•Two of the beneficiaries will be the Roman Catholic and Orthodox communions. Evangelicals have been entering these churches in recent decades and that trend will continue, with more efforts aimed at the "conversion" of Evangelicals to the Catholic and Orthodox traditions.

•A small band will work hard to rescue the movement from its demise through theological renewal. This is an attractive, innovative, and tireless community with outstanding media, publishing, and leadership development. Nonetheless, I believe the coming evangelical collapse will not result in a second reformation, though it may result in benefits for many churches and the beginnings of new churches.

•The emerging church will largely vanish from the evangelical landscape, becoming part of the small segment of progressive mainline Protestants that remain true to the liberal vision.

•Aggressively evangelistic fundamentalist churches will begin to disappear.

•Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism. Can this community withstand heresy, relativism, and confusion? To do so, it must make a priority of biblical authority, responsible leadership, and a reemergence of orthodoxy.

•Evangelicalism needs a "rescue mission" from the world Christian community. It is time for missionaries to come to America from Asia and Africa. Will they come? Will they be able to bring to our culture a more vital form of Christianity?

•Expect a fragmented response to the culture war. Some Evangelicals will work to create their own countercultures, rather than try to change the culture at large. Some will continue to see conservatism and Christianity through one lens and will engage the culture war much as before – a status quo the media will be all too happy to perpetuate. A significant number, however, may give up political engagement for a discipleship of deeper impact.

Is all of this a bad thing?

Evangelicalism doesn't need a bailout. Much of it needs a funeral. But what about what remains?

Is it a good thing that denominations are going to become largely irrelevant? Only if the networks that replace them are able to marshal resources, training, and vision to the mission field and into the planting and equipping of churches.

Is it a good thing that many marginal believers will depart? Possibly, if churches begin and continue the work of renewing serious church membership. We must change the conversation from the maintenance of traditional churches to developing new and culturally appropriate ones.

The ascendency of Charismatic-Pentecostal-influenced worship around the world can be a major positive for the evangelical movement if reformation can reach those churches and if it is joined with the calling, training, and mentoring of leaders. If American churches come under more of the influence of the movement of the Holy Spirit in Africa and Asia, this will be a good thing.

Will the evangelicalizing of Catholic and Orthodox communions be a good development? One can hope for greater unity and appreciation, but the history of these developments seems to be much more about a renewed vigor to "evangelize" Protestantism in the name of unity.

Will the coming collapse get Evangelicals past the pragmatism and shallowness that has brought about the loss of substance and power? Probably not. The purveyors of the evangelical circus will be in fine form, selling their wares as the promised solution to every church's problems. I expect the landscape of megachurch vacuity to be around for a very long time.

Will it shake lose the prosperity Gospel from its parasitical place on the evangelical body of Christ? Evidence from similar periods is not encouraging. American Christians seldom seem to be able to separate their theology from an overall idea of personal affluence and success.

The loss of their political clout may impel many Evangelicals to reconsider the wisdom of trying to create a "godly society." That doesn't mean they'll focus solely on saving souls, but the increasing concern will be how to keep secularism out of church, not stop it altogether. The integrity of the church as a countercultural movement with a message of "empire subversion" will increasingly replace a message of cultural and political entitlement.

Despite all of these challenges, it is impossible not to be hopeful. As one commenter has already said, "Christianity loves a crumbling empire."

We can rejoice that in the ruins, new forms of Christian vitality and ministry will be born. I expect to see a vital and growing house church movement. This cannot help but be good for an evangelicalism that has made buildings, numbers, and paid staff its drugs for half a century.

We need new evangelicalism that learns from the past and listens more carefully to what God says about being His people in the midst of a powerful, idolatrous culture.

I'm not a prophet. My view of evangelicalism is not authoritative or infallible. I am certainly wrong in some of these predictions. But is there anyone who is observing evangelicalism in these times who does not sense that the future of our movement holds many dangers and much potential?

• Michael Spencer is a writer and communicator living and working in a Christian community in Kentucky. He describes himself as "a postevangelical reformation Christian in search of a Jesus-shaped spirituality." This essay is adapted from a series on his blog, InternetMonk.com .

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

Symmetric Chaos
Makes sense to me. It's probably a good thing as well.

Robtard
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Makes sense to me. It's probably a good thing as well.

I agree, smaller community churches will be better suited to help people spiritually, than mega-churches where 20k morons all flocking to see a charlatan prance about and ask for "donations."

Grand-Moff-Gav
The One True Church shall remain.

Robtard
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
The One True Church shall remain.

Amen brother, going strong since '52.

http://maps.atlantadowntown.com/_files/images/churchs-chicken.jpghttp://www.fastfood.com/ChurchsChicken/pics/Churchs_Chicken_restaurant.jpg

Grand-Moff-Gav
Originally posted by Robtard
Amen brother, going strong since '52.

http://maps.atlantadowntown.com/_files/images/churchs-chicken.jpghttp://www.fastfood.com/ChurchsChicken/pics/Churchs_Chicken_restaurant.jpg

laughing out loud Yes, I like you.

Da Pittman
Originally posted by Robtard
Amen brother, going strong since '52.

http://maps.atlantadowntown.com/_files/images/churchs-chicken.jpghttp://www.fastfood.com/ChurchsChicken/pics/Churchs_Chicken_restaurant.jpg laughing

UKR
If all religions in the world were like that church, there would be no war. That's my kind of church.

Da Pittman
Originally posted by UKR
If all religions in the world were like that church, there would be no war. That's my kind of church. Nope no war because we would all be to fat to care laughing

King Kandy
Good riddance.

lil bitchiness
What the hell is evangelical Christianity?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What the hell is evangelical Christianity?

Joke?

Magee
I also have no idea what an evangelical christian is, I assume it's some thing that started and stayed in America for the most part, fortunately.

Symmetric Chaos
But you're both on the internet . . .

The freaking internet. With Yoogle and Gahoo and whatever else people use stuff to find things that aren't porn.


Anyway, it's the hardcore (ofen psycho) Christian version of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelism

lil bitchiness
I couldn't give less shit about your twisted cults in 'Mrica to search the internet for them or read some retarded Wikipedia page.

If I need answers on any part of Christianity, Catholic Encyclopedia is pretty rich on that sort of info. But since I care not to learn about this in depth...

What I wanted was a short brief on what the hell it is.

But hey, thanks for the link. Could you post instructions on how to click it?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
... Could you post instructions on how to click it?

laughing

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I couldn't give less shit about your twisted cults in 'Mrica to search the internet for them or read some retarded Wikipedia page.

If I need answers on any part of Christianity, Catholic Encyclopedia is pretty rich on that sort of info. But since I care not to learn about this in depth...

What I wanted was a short brief on what the hell it is.

But hey, thanks for the link. Could you post instructions on how to click it?

Move mouse over the words that are underlined. Press down on the mouse until you here a clicking noise. The page will change at this point it is important to remember that YOU MUST NOT PANIC the change is supposed to happen. Next you should start reading. After a few moment (or longer if English isn't your native language) you will find this short brief on what the hell Christian Evangelism is:

"The intention of most Christian evangelism is to convert those who do not follow the Christian God to Christianity for the purpose of effecting eternal salvation... Some Christian traditions consider evangelists to be in a leadership position, and they may be found preaching to large meetings, and in governance roles. Christian groups who actively encourage evangelism are sometimes known as evangelistic or evangelist."

I know the internet is a big scary place but you need to give it a chance.

Magee
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But you're both on the internet . . .

The freaking internet. With Yoogle and Gahoo and whatever else people use stuff to find things that aren't porn They are idiots with an extremist view on Christianity, thats all I know and all I want to know.

chithappens
From what I think I know (and what the idiots who preach on my campus scream at us about salvation) the big thing with evangelical Christianity is to save the souls of those who do not truly know God. It's like domestic missonary work.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by chithappens
From what I think I know (and what the idiots who preach on my campus scream at us about salvation) the big thing with evangelical Christianity is to save the souls of those who do not truly know God. It's like domestic missonary work.

It's all about power. These people are being used by a few very rich and powerful people.

Digi
Along these lines, a series of not quite evangelical but ardent Christian churches have collapsed in my area in recent years. A lot of them combined into a kind of mega-church, which does quite well. It originally considered itself Baptist but has switched to nondenominational to accommodate the increasing numbers of outside Christian sects.

Obviously they don't have TV broadcasts or anything, but the church gives off an air of profundity in its size. But usually lost in that aura is the fact that numerous churches utterly failed to give rise to it. Perhaps its numbers have swelled some since its inception because a collective effort can be stronger than many smaller ones. But the total numbers of people attending from the area has dwindled significantly, compared to when the numerous smaller churches were all thriving. It's a false sense of size.

Clearly this only amounts to a case study, and not even that (more like an anecdote). But it makes the predictions and conclusions of the article at least slightly more plausible, since it has happened already in at least one place.

And to qualify the predictions, the number of "census" Christians (of any sect) seems more stable, but the active, attending people do seem to have decreased some. At least from my viewpoint.

....

I honestly hope the trend continues. Not because I harbor ill-will toward religion, but simply out of curiosity. The general trend in civilization through the centuries has been toward secularism and away from hardcore religion. And I personally don't think it's a coincidence that we're as aware of the world around us as we've ever been in history, and that despite the evil that will always exist in the world, civilized nations are as humane as any have been in recorded history. The link can obviously be traced to other causes, and I state such a theory only as opinion, but I personally believe that this correlation does in fact have enough merit to justify some causation between the two.

inimalist
Originally posted by Digi
The general trend in civilization through the centuries has been toward secularism and away from hardcore religion.

really?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by inimalist
really?

History has been shaped by people who questioned what was accepted. Much of the time that included religion. A lot of great thinkers were at least agnostic, even when they had no good explanations for why various things happened. Aristotle is probably the best known example, not only was he a pagan but he was a agnostic pagan and he still defined scientific thought for hundreds of years.

Robtard
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It's all about power. These people are being used by a few very rich and powerful people.

Deano, that you?

inimalist
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
History has been shaped by people who questioned what was accepted. Much of the time that included religion. A lot of great thinkers were at least agnostic, even when they had no good explanations for why various things happened. Aristotle is probably the best known example, not only was he a pagan but he was a agnostic pagan and he still defined scientific thought for hundreds of years.

indeed, but to say that history progresses toward secularism is, imho, a little narrow. There are many places in the world today that are moving in the opposite direction, and even after secular Greek society, the Christians rose and conquered it.

I'm not really sure civilization is moving toward anything, especially a world where religion is not a dominant figure in the institutions of power.

Digi
Originally posted by inimalist
really?

That opinion springs primarily from the work of Stephen Pinker, who deals primarily with language as a cultural tool, but occasionally delves into meta-analysis of history, culture, and their trends.

But non-religious numbers are as high as they have ever been (percentages), even while the number of total religious adherents increases (3rd World population increase mostly). And among modernized nations the "in group vs. out group" conflict that has been previously defined by tribes, cities, nations, religions, etc. is fast becoming "world," "species," or even "living environment" which would include other sentient creatures and the earth itself. The trend is outward.

So yes, I see historical progress pointing that direction, and think we're as humane as we've ever been as a species, despite the obvious atrocities that have plagued every step of human civilization.

Originally posted by inimalist
indeed, but to say that history progresses toward secularism is, imho, a little narrow. There are many places in the world today that are moving in the opposite direction, and even after secular Greek society, the Christians rose and conquered it.

I'm not really sure civilization is moving toward anything, especially a world where religion is not a dominant figure in the institutions of power.

The 3rd World does make your argument compelling, but within our own country and most of Europe I stand by it. Religion is FAR less powerful an influence of the world than it has been in past eras. It is still strong, mind you, but that need not be false for my point to hold true.

I also think we're less susceptible to such "conquering" as you describe in our current day and age. Communications breakthroughs make such monopolies of thought nearly impossible anymore.

Whether or not my two points (more humane, less religion) are related is speculation, so I posit it only as opinion.

inimalist
Originally posted by Digi
I also think we're less susceptible to such "conquering" as you describe in our current day and age. Communications breakthroughs make such monopolies of thought nearly impossible anymore.

I'll make a proper reply, but I just got a total kick out of my paranoid reaction to this:

Blackwater Worldwide, now called Xe, is owned by a man named Eric Prince....

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Robtard
Deano, that you? mad

inimalist
Originally posted by Digi
That opinion springs primarily from the work of Stephen Pinker, who deals primarily with language as a cultural tool, but occasionally delves into meta-analysis of history, culture, and their trends.

But non-religious numbers are as high as they have ever been (percentages), even while the number of total religious adherents increases (3rd World population increase mostly). And among modernized nations the "in group vs. out group" conflict that has been previously defined by tribes, cities, nations, religions, etc. is fast becoming "world," "species," or even "living environment" which would include other sentient creatures and the earth itself. The trend is outward.

So yes, I see historical progress pointing that direction, and think we're as humane as we've ever been as a species, despite the obvious atrocities that have plagued every step of human civilization.

The 3rd World does make your argument compelling, but within our own country and most of Europe I stand by it. Religion is FAR less powerful an influence of the world than it has been in past eras. It is still strong, mind you, but that need not be false for my point to hold true.

I also think we're less susceptible to such "conquering" as you describe in our current day and age. Communications breakthroughs make such monopolies of thought nearly impossible anymore.

Whether or not my two points (more humane, less religion) are related is speculation, so I posit it only as opinion.

you hit my point directly, however. It is only in this modern western context that we could try to build that argument. Even the renaissance had extremely religious overtones, so this "secularization" is what, 200 years at the most? and localized entirely in North America and Western Europe (though Europe is not as cut and dry).

Religion, to most people on the planet, is ascending in power.

And, I personally do not think our society is immune from Christian takeover again. The American armed forces are infiltrated to the highest levels by those who wish to spread Christianity around the planet, and who feel Jesus is the real leader of America. Not to mention how important a thriving economy is to science and invention. World wide recession is a climate much more suited to religion than science or reason.

Digi
Originally posted by inimalist
you hit my point directly, however. It is only in this modern western context that we could try to build that argument. Even the renaissance had extremely religious overtones, so this "secularization" is what, 200 years at the most? and localized entirely in North America and Western Europe (though Europe is not as cut and dry).

Religion, to most people on the planet, is ascending in power.

And, I personally do not think our society is immune from Christian takeover again. The American armed forces are infiltrated to the highest levels by those who wish to spread Christianity around the planet, and who feel Jesus is the real leader of America. Not to mention how important a thriving economy is to science and invention. World wide recession is a climate much more suited to religion than science or reason.

Fair points. I don't disagree with any of them. Hopefully the rest of the world can industrialize and/or modernize (the newer term) eventually and continue along as we have been, and we also don't regress into fear-driven religious renewal. Again, it's not that I dislike religion or its influence, but I don't see a move away from religion as a bad thing and would like to see where it leads.

inimalist
Originally posted by Digi
Fair points. I don't disagree with any of them. Hopefully the rest of the world can industrialize and/or modernize (the newer term) eventually and continue along as we have been, and we also don't regress into fear-driven religious renewal. Again, it's not that I dislike religion or its influence, but I don't see a move away from religion as a bad thing and would like to see where it leads.

I totally agree with you

I am just less optimistic about where science and reason stand in our society.

Recent polls show huge support for science, but absolutely no knowledge of it whatsoever in in the general populace. For this reason, we see effective marketing campaigns of non-scientific ideas using scientific sounding rhetoric. ID as a scientific alternative to evolution, alternative medicine as opposed to herbalism.

To be totally honest, I don't necessarily see the west as any less "religious", just that people are less involved in the traditional organized religions. New age and ego centric spiritualism appears to be on the rise, along with what I could only call "conspiracy cults". Christianity may no longer be the dominant force in the west, but to call our society secular or rational, especially scientifically rational, is a long stretch.

I'd almost be willing to point to 9-10th century Iberia, maybe Baghdad for the centuries immediately preceding that, or classical Greece as times where, as a civilization, people were more interested in rational than magical thinking. I really don't see that from our society. Honestly, look at the power of "the secret".

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by inimalist
Honestly, look at the power of "the secret".

What secret? Tell me tell me tellmetellmetellmetelmetmtmtmtmtmtm!

inimalist
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What secret? Tell me tell me tellmetellmetellmetelmetmtmtmtmtmtm!

THE secret

the "power" of "positive" thinking

basically, think about something and it happens

Digi
God, I hate The Secret.

Also, thanks for ruining my pleasant buzz from this thread, in. I have no rebuttals.

miffed

inimalist
this victory is only bittersweet

Robtard
Originally posted by inimalist
THE secret

the "power" of "positive" thinking

basically, think about something and it happens

Which is bullshit. Not that I think positive thinking is bullshit, but relying on thinking to make things happen, instead of going about and actually making them happen.

inimalist
Originally posted by Robtard
Which is bullshit. Not that I think positive thinking is bullshit, but relying on thinking to make things happen, instead of going about and actually making them happen.

I saw one of their "philosophers" on CBC news, who was claiming that the brain produces "positive" energy when it thinks positive thoughts, and that attract the positive energy of positive events.

It was at this point I shouted at the TV for 10 min

Robtard
Originally posted by inimalist
I saw one of their "philosophers" on CBC news, who was claiming that the brain produces "positive" energy when it thinks positive thoughts, and that attract the positive energy of positive events.

It was at this point I shouted at the TV for 10 min

Wonder if that would have worked for the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, retards etc during the holocaust.

Yet how much has this book sold because the cow that is Oprah masturbated over it on her show?

inimalist
whats worse is that people don't seem to see the problem with taking scientific advice from ****ing oprah

but ya, I'd love 1% of the profits from the secret.

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