Episode 22- Hostage Crisis

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Nactous
Been waiting for this one for a while. Loved the appearnce of Cad Bane since getting a look at him at Toy Fair, looks promising.

Nactous
Here is a pick. He is this series response to Durge.

Ordo
I think its nice that there are additional Durge-calibur baddies. I also think its positive that some of the villians will now more immediately fit in with the series. I dumbs down the "SURPRISE! Its Ventress again!" repetativeness we've seen. Its also cool that he's alien. Duros is a good species to push further because it has a lot of ground in the series, all the way back to Star Wars, and has barely been developed.

However, with increasing quantity comes dilution. Not only will Bane (Wait? isn't there ALREADY a Bane in Star Wars? ....that was rhetorical, highlighting the unoriginality of the name) take screentime away from important, yet undeveloped baddies like Ventress, Grivous, and Dooku (even Tambor, etc Seperatist leaders). I also feel he's a BIT too Western with the hat and trenchcoat. THe little breathie things help some, but he's a bit retro.

I would have rather seen a kickass Mando liek Ghez Hokan or something from fandom that could have pushed the boundaries a bit. But, at least its original, and I'm always willing to give original ideas a shot.

Captain REX
I think he looks ridiculous and out of place as a hardened bad guy, honestly. I will leave off on actual judgment until we see him in action, but he is nowhere near Durge...

queeq
What's with the hat?

Hybris
I honestly would have rather seen Durge back than having to watch a skinny space cowboy... Durge was pure evil to be honest.

Captain REX
Indeed.

However, accompanying Cade Bane in this episode is going to be the bounty huntress Aurra Sing. If they decide to hold to her Expanded Universe backstory, she is a former Jedi-in-training and now a Dark Jedi who kills Jedi, whether she is paid to or not. So we have a potential for a lightsaber duel, here...

...unless they stray away and keep her to her blasters. Which will annoy me.

However, the situation is that they're supposed to take the Senate hostage on Coruscant. Their reason? To free Ziro the Hutt... yes, Ziro. From the movie.

I'm not excited.

Nactous
Whats wrong with Ziro?

Captain REX
Aside from the offensive gay stereotype, his brand of villainy was horribly, horribly lame. I was not threatened by him at all. It also shows that Jabba didn't have him violently executed as was implied.

Nactous
To many homophobes(not saying your one) rip on Ziro. It really makes me sick

Captain REX
It's not just the homophobes (no offense taken). There are homosexuals who viewed Ziro as an offensive gay stereotype, what with his appearance, his voice, his ill-natured ways.

Ordo
As I bi-gay man, I did not find Ziro offensive. Gays can be bad people too. I reject the notion that any minority must be portrayed in a positive light all the time. That aside, Ziro cant even be gay because Hutts are hermaphroditic. ALL Hutts are portrayed as jerks, feathers and tattoos aside.

Star Wars (especially Clone Wars) is full of such BORDERLINE stereotypes...the East Asian-like Nemoidians, the crazy German doctor from the Shadow Virus episodes, the Jamaican inspired Gungans, pompus British/German Admirals from the original trilogy (and Yularen)...all of these groups carry a LOT of stereotypes. I find these to be more species based than individual-based. But this is more one of the innate flaws of Star Wars...its too much about good v. evil. There is little middle ground.

I would like however, that if Lucas would portray exceptions to these rules. I'd love to see a gay Mandalorian couple, a Neimoidian with a backbone, a crazy German doctor that helps people, and a Gungan with motivation, maturity, and a brain.

I do find a good deal of the criticism against Ziro offensive and homophobic though. That is more aggravating to me than the character.

<><><>

That aside, I'd LIKE them to tie together more episodes. Ziro is a CHARACTER, if nothing else, and has a lot more personality than some of the pointless baddies we've had to endure. And if Aurra Sing can come in and get some back story, great! That's tying three things (clone Wars movie, series, TPM) together. This series needs to do more of that. I'm all for the attemept.

I wont hold my breath on the authenticity of her character though. I've already had to endure the complete bastardization of Alpha (who was renamed Rex because of Anakin, Artoo, Ahsoka (which is a friggin MANS name) and Alpha would be too many A's according to Lucas. So, he took an established badasss character and renamed him (and re characterized him). This is a wound for me that wont heal. Thankfully, I dont know anything about Aurra...and really don't care lol. (I just know how it feels)

I'm still going to be giving this episode a shot. All in all, every episode is about execution, and I haven't seen it yet to tell if it was executed correctly.

queeq
There was a Neimodian with a backbone some episodes back...

Ordo
Which one was that? The one on the battleship in Episode 19?

He was better, but he didnt have a backbone, he ran away and abandoned his battleship. Now that I think of it, I dont even know if he died.

Nemoidians always plot then lose...and are cowards in the process.

Ordo
Aside, I just watched the preview ...it has commando droids, the Weequay Pirates, Aurra Sing, the IG87 models vs the Senate Commandos, Bail Organa, some of the other senators from the deleted rebel alliancescenes in ROTS...

This episode is going to be one giant clusterf*ck of characters. I hope Filoni doesn't go SEASON FINALE! and everyone gets lost in the crowd. There are a lot of powerful characters here, especially for introducing about 27 new ones.

Captain REX
Whoa, clustf*ck indeed. Neat to see the commando droids back, though. Should provide entertaining fight scenes, if not story. But here's rooting for the story.

Good to get your opinion on Ziro, Ordo. Personally, I just found him to be painfully annoying. His voice grated. Fair enough that he has characterization and tie-in, though.

So far the Neimoidians with backbones have only had them to start with. The Neimoidian who tried to exterminate the Lurmens and the Neimoidian who engaged Skywalker over Ryloth both exhibited cunning and intelligence to begin with, but once their plans went to shit they bailed (or were captured). Unfortunate.

Ordo
Actually, the commando droids were in Liberty on Ryloth too smile They beat up the two clones that go in to reactivate the bridge. I loved that they just charge in unaddressed in the film, especially because I'm lukewarm to their concept.

<><><>

Ziro is a bit annoying, but he's a slug. I don't think his intention was really supposed to be a badass character. If that was the intention Darth Maul would be there shirtless seducing Padme (or a clone!). I've kind of grown to like him because he is so different. He doesn't entirely fit the Star Wars mold. If he was in EVERY episode, yeah, that's annoying, but once a season? I can live with that.

You can't deny that he's a character lol.

<><><>

I didn't see Lot Durd as having a spine. He lands on a rural planet to test a gun, with Dooku's permission. And is kind of incompetant...then fails miserably. lol.

Nactous
Originally posted by Captain REX
It's not just the homophobes (no offense taken). There are homosexuals who viewed Ziro as an offensive gay stereotype, what with his appearance, his voice, his ill-natured ways.

I can see your point of view.

Nactous
Originally posted by Ordo



I I've already had to endure the complete bastardization of Alpha (who was renamed Rex because of Anakin, Artoo, Ahsoka (which is a friggin MANS name) and Alpha would be too many A's according to Lucas.

Alpha and Rex aren't the same character, are they?

Final Blaxican
Originally posted by Ordo
If that was the intention Darth Maul would be there shirtless seducing Padme.

Epic.

queeq
Seducing or raping?

Captain REX
No, Alpha and Rex are canonically different. Which is stupid.

I actually haven't completed the Ryloth trilogy yet, Ordo. I watch them online a week late.

Ordo
Originally posted by queeq
Seducing or raping?

Either or. big grin

Originally posted by Captain REX
No, Alpha and Rex are canonically different. Which is stupid.

*SCREAMS THIS OUT ACROSS THE UNIVERSE*

Its incredibly stupid. I wish they would just go back to the comics and have Anakin rename "Alpha" "Alpha Rex"...and change hsi hair color so he its not bleach blond like a douche.

Originally posted by Captain REX
I actually haven't completed the Ryloth trilogy yet, Ordo. I watch them online a week late.

Ah. To me, it seems a good preview of (stylistically) how Filoni is going to treat Hostage in terms of tying together different parts of Season 1. I hope such intensity is continued in Season 2. I dont know how many more "Dooku Captured" flops i can stomach.

queeq
Intensity???

Ordo
Faster, more intense.

lol, Rex, dont read this yet.

So, in "Liberty", parts of the story were pre-established. We knew what commando droids were., We knew Anakin and Ahsoka were leading the naval battle. There were points, for the FIRST time in this series, where a main character interjects and interrupts one action sequence with another in a PARALLEL fasion as opposed to a linear one. I did not expect to see Anakin ans Ahsoka play a supportive role in "Liberty," likewise for the commando droids. Yet, both just charge onto the screen without a linear introduction. All of a sudden after the meandering clank-clank of the tinnies, two Cdroids rush into the room and start punching and kicking the clones. Mace is busy with his own battles, but suddenly we cut to (very close up shots) of a heated arial battle. Multiple plots action plots were occouring simultaneously. Even better (and why they were not abject failtures like the interruption of Anakin v Kenobi with Yoda v Sidious), these plots built on eachoter and fed an increasing feeling of intesity in the film. The wove together multiple stories ("Storm" and "Rookies"wink using main characters as in complementary roles WITHOUT introducing them in the beginning of the Episode.

This is likely how Aurra Sing, Bail Organa, and the Weequayan Pirates are going to be treated in "Hostage."

Alkaselzer
That's what we're hoping for, but I have a feeling they'll still go 'THIS IS AURRA SING, SHE WAS A BACKGROUND CHARACTER IN A MOVIE, NOW SHE'S HERE.'

queeq
*Shudder*

Ordo
They haven't been that tactless yet. I wouldn't worry. I just wish they'd start pleasing the clone fan base (this is the karking clone wars) as opposed to the random 5 second character in Episode I fanbase.

queeq
Maybe they should stop pleasing fans and start making some good stuff.

Ordo
Well, as a fan, I really dont think its good unless I'm pleased. So, I think those goals are one and the same.

One of my friends is a Kindergarten teacher. Every Monday the kids write a journal about what they did over the weekend. There are four or five boys in the class that EVERY Monday write about Clone Wars. He's not a fan, but I do get him to watch some episodes with me just to keep on top for his kids.

I understand that Lucas wants to increase the fan base. The PT was not made primarily with the ancient fans in mind. Yet, I dont see why I dont fall in the demographic for Filoni's clone wars. I'm a 22 year old male, PT fan (I like it better than the OT), pro-EU, pro animation guy. Yet, I feel the vast majority of the episodes are hitting the demographics I've seen, 5-13 year old boys. I feel the complexities of the stories and the morals are WAY WAY below me. Granted, I'm a smart guy, but there should be some depth in these episodes. I think they've aimed too low for their "fan base" or misunderstimated what kind of content reaches what generations. And I, like other fans here, have grown impatient. Maybe Lucas sees the live action series as reaching older fans and this for the fan Jr's, but still...growing new fans at the expense of old ones ruins the singular depth of this franchise.

War is humanities greatest endeavor; there is infinite content here. They've only scratched the surface of that. Karen Traviss has more thought in a page than Filoni packs in an episode...and Filoni isn't making 400 episodes, let alone 4 books worth of pages. Its not that I dont like Filoni either...I've seen his work on Avatar and loved it. However, he hasn't translated Star Wars, I think he is a poor protege of Lucas (there was some talk about that), and I dont see him taking the franchise in a new and good direction. I feel we're all going to be Trekked out of fandom. At this point would have rather seen a movie or Republic Commando rather than the entirety of this series.

I want this series to succeed (desperately). I dont think its earned my stamp of approval. After tonight I can start my season one reviews.

Captain REX
Regardless, Traviss is still a tremendous *****.

Nactous
Originally posted by Captain REX
Regardless, Traviss is still a tremendous *****.

Oh, I hate that woman...

Nactous
Saw the episode btw, it was the only one of this season(only seen about 5) that I really enjoyed. Felt more mature.

queeq
At the end...

Ordo
Originally posted by Captain REX
Regardless, Traviss is still a tremendous *****.

Why's that? She's brilliant....

She writes better fic than half the _____ that they pass for Star Wars novels these days.

Nactous
Originally posted by Ordo
Why's that? She's brilliant....

She writes better fic than half the _____ that they pass for Star Wars novels these days.
laughing

Hybris
Originally posted by Ordo
Why's that? She's brilliant....

She writes better fic than half the _____ that they pass for Star Wars novels these days.

Well if you put your standards that low, what do you expect stick out tongue

Ordo
That was a non-answer no expression

Captain REX
Traviss treats her fans like utter shite. You've no doubt heard the '2 million clones' debate that she triggered?

Ordo
Its 3 million, but yes....

So? I'm not defending her personal actions. I think her vision of clones, their personalities, and their interaction with themselves and others is brilliant.

She has captured clones and the clone wars in a way that is 1. very like my conception and 2. very well thought out. That's rare imo.

I personally think the 3 million number is too small, but likewise I believe that clones had kill ratios 100:1, 500:1 etc. Travis is right that war as in the Clone Wars is very different than we conceive it to be now. Its faster, PLANETARY skirmishes (the caps word being where I think her lack of distinction hurts her argument), but still skirmished base nonetheless. This is where her logic is valid. The Empire was an occupying force, the GAR a combat force, there are huge differences in troop requirements, mission objectives, etc. I'd rather see 3 million clones than 100 million.

Regardless, I'm not one to judge ideas and work by character.

Ordo
Damn edit...

I must have misunderstood your original post. I can see why people dislike her. I wasn't involved in the 3mil debate. I just like her work. I personally find it an essential verbalization of my conception of Star Wars.

Nactous
Originally posted by Ordo
Damn edit...

I must have misunderstood your original post. I can see why people dislike her. I wasn't involved in the 3mil debate. I just like her work. I personally find it an essential verbalization of my conception of Star Wars.

Im not a fan of what she did to the Mandos..

Ordo
She salvaged them from a retarded fanboy obscurity and made them real.

Final Blaxican
She also overrated them to the point of disgust.

One million clones troopers? Really.

And Boba's shenanigans in the EU is also retarded.

Ordo
*faceplam* 3...THREE million (she claims) its certainly not less than that.

And over-rated? lol. She found the best of star wars and ran with it.

Captain REX
I agree with Boba's shenanigans. The Republic Commando books she's written have been impressive. But she's still a major *****.

Nactous
Originally posted by Ordo
She salvaged them from a retarded fanboy obscurity and made them real.

By "real" you mean, took the bad ass out of the equation than yes, "real" and dare I say a tad bit boring. Thank God she hasn't touched the KotOR era Mandos yet....

Ordo
Originally posted by Captain REX
The Republic Commando books she's written have been impressive. But she's still a major *****.

I can live with that...lol stick out tongue

Originally posted by Nactous
Thank God she hasn't touched the KotOR era Mandos yet....

Ok. I take issue with this. The KOTOR era Mandos are the sorries, lazziest, most uncreative group I could imagine. They are there as an accessory to a Jedi plotline because, at that point, Star Wars was limited to SURPIRSE!...antoher Jedi plotline. They laze around in their monochromatic tin can beskar all day being terrified of bomas. Why? they were so "badass" that they got their shebs wiped all over the damn galaxy and were pummeled into a permenant obscurity.

See, fans are not fanboys. Fanboys like something because its "badass." Fans like something because it has personal meaning. Fake wars about Mandalorians with big egos and tiny brains and unrealistic sensse of honor are for fanboys. Sotries about combat and honor driven culture, character development, and questions of morality are for Fans. I am a Mando FAN. I like them because of the depth of their CULTURE, the struggles and culture they represent. I like that there is a hyper-masculine warrior culture that accepts gay relationships. I like that honor and fitness are portrayted as lifestyle choices. I like concepts of brotherhood and mutual respect based on skill. I like Mandos because I find it the stories and the characters relevant to my life, my morals, and my goals.

Traviss, like her or not, is a lynchpin here, but Lucas is too. Boba was an accessory deliveryman in ESB and ROTJ who fired off about 5 shots and got his jetpac whacked before falling into a worm-gut. Jango is presented differently, he has more screen time, is shown in family situations, and has dialogue that (at least) addresses his lifestyle and motivation. This is one reason I LOVE the PT over the OT (and hate crap like KOTOR). It presents depth and Traviss has taken that an run with it. Sitting around a camp all day being terrified of Bomas is BORING, especially whin their "badass" ignorance got them in that situation to begin with, a punishment that they no doubt deserved. If thats "badass" then you can keep it. Republic Commando spawned all this and it is, to my knowledge, the first SW game to present the universe from the gritty persepctive of a soldier, REAL military sci fi. All of Travis's Mandos sprung from this radical reinterpretation of Star Wars. Its also these things that made me a Star Wars fan/nut/however far you want to brand me lol. AOTC/RC/ROTS got me where KOTOR/OT never did. I had never cried at a movie until ROTS (lame I know). All this says something. I'm not trying to bash, I accept there are different kind of fans from different places in Star Wars (liek Queeq is old lol). This stuff is the engine of my fandom because it is SO deep and so interesting its worth exploring.

To me, "badass" is overcomming problems, fighting for your vode regardless of the situation, self sacrifice, overcomming moral struggles....thats worhty of being a fan. I know things like culture and character depth, personal struggle and morality are "boring" (rolls eyes)...but it IS real, its relevant, and far superior (and more badass) than any "badassery" that has bred countless KOTOR fanboys.

Nactous
Originally posted by Ordo
I can live with that...lol stick out tongue



Ok. I take issue with this. The KOTOR era Mandos are the sorries, lazziest, most uncreative group I could imagine. They are there as an accessory to a Jedi plotline because, at that point, Star Wars was limited to SURPIRSE!...antoher Jedi plotline. They laze around in their monochromatic tin can beskar all day being terrified of bomas. Why? they were so "badass" that they got their shebs wiped all over the damn galaxy and were pummeled into a permenant obscurity.


They were also the most warrior like(how many times have the Mandos been a serious threat since?), all Traviss has done is soften them up. Tell me, have you read the KotOR comics?

Ordo
^^^Edited some if you care.

If by "warrior like" you mean charicatures of warriors yes, you are correct. I dont know what you think combat is like. Not that I've been, but a lot of it is sitting around. You make combat a lifestyle...a lot f it is boring training interrupted by sporadic moments of sheer terror. Its nto about pinning medals to your chest or shooting things. War, combat is humanities and mand greatest endeavors. It defines what it means to be human, it challenges our humanity, our psychology, orr phsyicality, and our emotions in ways nothing else on this eath does. Warrior is a lifestyle...a mentality...an emotional state and a physical state...not an occupation.

Mandalorians dont need to be "threats." MEN need to be threats...and there is plenty of that in Traviss' work. And why aren't Mandalorains (group) a threaty ever again? Because they got their dumb shebs wiped out making stupid decisions for 2-year-old-conceptions of honor.

Traviss HAS indeed soften them up. She's made them men instead of cartoons. She has shown the good bad an the ugly. This is far more entertaining and admirable then thinking life is charging into enemy lines, guns blazing, and slaughtering all the bad guys.

And no, I haven't read all the KOTOR comics, just the ones with Mandos in them wink.

Nactous
Originally posted by Ordo
I can live with that...lol stick out tongue



Ok. I take issue with this. The KOTOR era Mandos are the sorries, lazziest, most uncreative group I could imagine. They are there as an accessory to a Jedi plotline because, at that point, Star Wars was limited to SURPIRSE!...antoher Jedi plotline. They laze around in their monochromatic tin can beskar all day being terrified of bomas. Why? they were so "badass" that they got their shebs wiped all over the damn galaxy and were pummeled into a permenant obscurity.

See, fans are not fanboys. Fanboys like something because its "badass." Fans like something because it has personal meaning. Fake wars about Mandalorians with big egos and tiny brains and unrealistic sensse of honor are for fanboys. Sotries about combat and honor driven culture, character development, and questions of morality are for Fans. I am a Mando FAN. I like them because of the depth of their CULTURE, the struggles and culture they represent. I like that there is a hyper-masculine warrior culture that accepts gay relationships. I like that honor and fitness are portrayted as lifestyle choices. I like concepts of brotherhood and mutual respect based on skill. I like Mandos because I find it the stories and the characters relevant to my life, my morals, and my goals.

Traviss, like her or not, is a lynchpin here, but Lucas is too. Boba was an accessory deliveryman in ESB and ROTJ who fired off about 5 shots and got his jetpac whacked before falling into a worm-gut. Jango is presented differently, he has more screen time, is shown in family situations, and has dialogue that (at least) addresses his lifestyle and motivation. This is one reason I LOVE the PT over the OT (and hate crap like KOTOR). It presents depth and Traviss has taken that an run with it. Sitting around a camp all day being terrified of Bomas is BORING, especially whin their "badass" ignorance got them in that situation to begin with, a punishment that they no doubt deserved. If thats "badass" then you can keep it. Republic Commando spawned all this and it is, to my knowledge, the first SW game to present the universe from the gritty persepctive of a soldier, REAL military sci fi. All of Travis's Mandos sprung from this radical reinterpretation of Star Wars. Its also these things that made me a Star Wars fan/nut/however far you want to brand me lol. AOTC/RC/ROTS got me where KOTOR/OT never did. I had never cried at a movie until ROTS (lame I know). All this says something. I'm not trying to bash, I accept there are different kind of fans from different places in Star Wars (liek Queeq is old lol). This stuff is the engine of my fandom because it is SO deep and so interesting its worth exploring.

To me, "badass" is overcomming problems, fighting for your vode regardless of the situation, self sacrifice, overcomming moral struggles....thats worhty of being a fan. I know things like culture and character depth, personal struggle and morality are "boring" (rolls eyes)...but it IS real, its relevant, and far superior (and more badass) than any "badassery" that has bred countless KOTOR fanboys.

I take offense good sir,

You consider the KotOR Mandalorians the "lazziest, most uncreative group ", while it is quite the contrary. The KotOR Mandos are the only Mandos to date to have launched a full-scale war against the Republic and almost won(they did this without Sith aid unlike the TOTJ Mandos.) This was done through trickery and deception, throwing the Republic of guard by a false war, then attacking from three different sectors. This is something that we really haven't seen before in the Star Wars lore. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandalorian_Wars

Call me a fanboy all you wont(I take it as somewhat of a compliment) but I feel the KotOR Mandos truly live up to the image Boba Fett created nearly thirty years ago, one of mystery and unparalleled ruthlessness. Somethings don't need to be fully flushed out. You make it seem that KotOR Mandos have no depth at all in fact, if I'm not correct, the Mando that your named after had so much honor that he swore his allegiance to the man that destroyed his people's army, simply due to the fact that he had so much respect for him. I see the Canderous as the only "true" Mando you encounter in the game due to the fact that the others strike me as simple mercenaries that have lost their code of honor. Another concept that I enjoy is the fact that KotOR Mandos are more than just human, from Rodians to Wookies, all seem to join the Mando cause and belief unlike the later Mandos that seem to be mostly human.

In the end, it truly feels like we are comparing two different groups together. I like my Nomadic Mandalorians, filled with mystery and war, they are exactly what they should be, unpredictable and forever adapting. Where Traviss Mandos feel more conservative and less exciting, too plain, as if they simply want to "talk it out." Arent they supposed to be ruthless after all? Sometimes things don't need to be explained or expanded. Hell, look at Boba Fett, he was really cool until he came back...

Hybris
Not that all of this isn't interesting reading material, but isn't this EU material?

Queeq, salva nos !

queeq
Indeed. Cut the very clear EU stuff, take it to the EU forum.

Captain REX
All that aside... Traviss is still a terrible, fan-hating *****. But yeah, toss it in the EU forum. Start a thread about Mandos if you like. Personally don't care for them much.

Final Blaxican
Originally posted by Ordo
*faceplam* 3...THREE million (she claims) its certainly not less than that.

That's terrible.

Nine million would be a more acceptable number, considering the CIS was employing upwards of a billion. One army, for one planet, had " several million" by itself. If 3 million clones were spread out over the thousands of planets that were warred on, they would only have some thousands on each planet, And one Clone is not > a hundred droids. One clone is not even > ten droids.\\... though the shitty CLone Wars cartoon out right now would lead you to think so.



She took the best of Star Wars and almost ruined them. Like REX, the Commando books I found to be great. However, stating things like the Mandalorians were the Jedi's greatest adversary and the like is just... wrong. Anytime a clone or a mandalorian goes up against at least a knight or above level Jedi they get butchered, and that's how it should be.

Ordo
Well, in CANON Kenobi failed to kill Jango. Mace even had trouble getting the job done. I disagree that Mandalorians are the Jedi's greatest adversary, that's for the Sith. But I disagree that they're irrelevant. There is much more in star wars than dudes with shiny sticks. I find a man going up against a demi-god to be much more intriguing than a bunch of overblown ego-wads dueling with light and lightning.

As for the other stuff, I cant address that here now, but Filoni is doing it wrong...because he 1. doesn't care and 2. doesn't care to discover. "Immensely superior to droids" doesn't mean a 2:1 kill ratio. You combine individual skill with group tactics, 100s:1 kill ratios are acceptable, especially because it is suggest that there are trillions of Sep droids, if not many times that number. Yes, 3 mill is to small. So is 9 lol. But again, I dont think the movie suggests that these are really occupying forces. You have highly motile forces in any field and large bulk transports capable of moving entire armies within days. It seems combat is more jumping around than landing an army and marching on a planet. Seps seem to be more of an occupying force whereas the GAR engages the concentrated areas of the Seps and maintains external power structures.

Hybris
Originally posted by Ordo
Well, in CANON Kenobi failed to kill Jango.

Because there was a huge ship shooting at him and it wasn't his intention/mission to kill him.



No offence to Jango, but it didn't seem to take Mace more effort than dealing with a few droids. He had more trouble killing the reek than killing Jango.

Nactous
Huh, like this isn't EU either....

Ordo
Originally posted by Hybris
Because there was a huge ship shooting at him and it wasn't his intention/mission to kill him.

Kenobi failed to do that...repeatedly. He couldn't even track him.



Originally posted by Hybris
No offence to Jango, but it didn't seem to take Mace more effort than dealing with a few droids. He had more trouble killing the reek than killing Jango.

No droid ever lit Mace on fire.

Also, Jango killed the reek and had it not been for the damaged jetpack, Jango would have survived.

Captain REX
Originally posted by Nactous
Huh, like this isn't EU either....

It isn't. The television series holds a higher place in canon.

Ordo
Which makes it unfortunate that it wasn't done better.

Nactous
Originally posted by Captain REX
It isn't. The television series holds a higher place in canon.

Says who?

Final Blaxican
Originally posted by Ordo
Well, in CANON Kenobi failed to kill Jango.

As noted. there was a giant starship shooting at him, and kenobi wanted him alive for questioning. Jango ran away anyway. Dude knew he was fighting a losing battle. kenobi floored him with a jump kick. no expression




No "Canon" ever states this.



More interesting? Sure. Realistic? No. it's not realistic even within the Star Wars universe, which thrives on poor logic and fictional basis.



In which case it wouldn't be a 100:1 ratio. stick out tongue



The issue is that I believe Traviss has stated that the Clone army was, in it's entirety, only 3 million men strong, which doesn't make any sense. It's nonsensical fellation IMO.



But even then they'd still be outnumbered at least a hundred to one. It just... doesn't add up to me.

Gideon
Karen Traviss's minimalism is a major problem with the series. The idea that the mighty Galactic Republic fielded only three million clones is completely and irretrievably stupid. An army that size wouldn't be able to take over and hold a single planet much less a galaxy with a million or better planets. If we take the ANH novelization at its world and the Empire consisted of a million worlds (the figure changes), you're talking three clones per planet.

No, sorry. Nine million isn't even good. The GAR needed to field many billions.

queeq
Originally posted by Nactous
Says who?

Hold on, we don't know if the tv series is canon or not. For the time being we restrict ourselves to the series. Pure, undisputed EU stuff like Mandalorians go into the EU forum.

Ordo
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
As noted. there was a giant starship shooting at him, and kenobi wanted him alive for questioning. Jango ran away anyway. Dude knew he was fighting a losing battle. kenobi floored him with a jump kick. no expression

And Jango headbutted him and then dropped him off a ledge. Kenobi couldn't even anticipate the consequences of his kick. "Oh not good!" wth. Maybe Kenobi should stop drinking on the job.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
No "Canon" ever states this.

AOTC is canon. To me its obvious.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
More interesting? Sure. Realistic? No. it's not realistic even within the Star Wars universe, which thrives on poor logic and fictional basis.
Yet, we all complain about Anakin's fall to the darkside being unrealistic...etc. Sounds in space are one thing. I think this is a another.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
In which case it wouldn't be a 100:1 ratio. stick out tongue
Then we get into the 500:1s. smile Clones rule!

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
The issue is that I believe Traviss has stated that the Clone army was, in it's entirety, only 3 million men strong, which doesn't make any sense. It's nonsensical fellation IMO.
I agree. I think everyone does lol.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
But even then they'd still be outnumbered at least a hundred to one. It just... doesn't add up to me. Clones are "immensely superior to droids" One clone isn't as effective (or as dumb) as one droid. It IS canon that the clones are vastly outnumbered. Thats whats makes the war interesting. If the clones were equal in # to droids, the war would have been over in weeks because the CIS army would have been wiped out.

Originally posted by queeq
Hold on, we don't know if the tv series is canon or not. For the time being we restrict ourselves to the series. Pure, undisputed EU stuff like Mandalorians go into the EU forum.

Mandalorians are pure canon. They are in 3 films.

Also the TV series is canon, its just not movie canon, but above all other EU. That has been WELL established. I know this breaks your precious system...

Gideon
Not at all.

I view it as Mace more or less negligently disposing of a possible irritant. To an accomplished Jedi like Mace? Jango is nothing.

queeq
Originally posted by Ordo
Mandalorians are pure canon. They are in 3 films.

Also the TV series is canon, its just not movie canon, but above all other EU. That has been WELL established. I know this breaks your precious system...

For one, the TERM Mandalorian is canon. Who they were etc. that's all EU.

The tv series is not canon (yet) since that was never confirmed by Lucasfilm, our only authority on this matter. Ergo, its status is pending.

Hybris
Anyway I sure hope Cad Bane will finally get rid of Asohka next season.

Ordo
Originally posted by queeq
For one, the TERM Mandalorian is canon. Who they were etc. that's all EU.

We have brains. We can observe how they talk, what they do, what they wear, how they think. This is termed observation and is an essential part of obtaining more information that meets the eye.

So no, its not ALL EU.

Originally posted by Hybris
Anyway I sure hope Cad Bane will finally get rid of Asohka next season.

You know it wont happen until the end. I don't want them to kill off the ONLY redeeming/developed character they've introduced into this series.

I hope they finally get their act together on the clones, that pisses me off FAR more than any brattish whining, which we already have to endure from Skywalker....Kenobi...

Nactous
Originally posted by queeq
Hold on, we don't know if the tv series is canon or not. For the time being we restrict ourselves to the series. Pure, undisputed EU stuff like Mandalorians go into the EU forum.

Ill take that, as long as this isnt considerd canon...

queeq
Again: the TERM Mandalorian is canon. There are no canon sources about who they were. So that's EU.


Anywho, saw the episode. Pretty nicely paced episode. Worked well.

The only scene I thought sucked was where the wounded Clone Trooper asks Aurra Singh for help... that is so not clone.

Ordo
Originally posted by queeq
Again: the TERM Mandalorian is canon. There are no canon sources about who they were. So that's EU.

Its called interpretation, extrapolation. So yes, you can determine something, just not everything. Why do you deny this?



Originally posted by queeq
The only scene I thought sucked was where the wounded Clone Trooper asks Aurra Singh for help... that is so not clone.

Senate Commandos are NOT clones, as shown in the films and Cloak of Darkness.

Ushgarak
First of all, in absolutely no way at all has the tv series canon been determined; this is still a wait-and-see area. As far as this section is concerned, wer are not here to discuss the EU, just the tv (and by extension, the films are obviously canon to the tv series as well).

Secondly it is amazingly plain that Windu dispatched Jango with extreme ease; he was not even slightly troubled.

Thirdly- yup, sorry, any interpretation of what 'Mandalorian' means is all EU, and it is not appropriate to this area.

That's how it is; please do not argue it.

Nactous
Originally posted by Ushgarak
First of all, in absolutely no way at all has the tv series canon been determined; this is still a wait-and-see area. As far as this section is concerned, wer are not here to discuss the EU, just the tv (and by extension, the films are obviously canon to the tv series as well).

Secondly it is amazingly plain that Windu dispatched Jango with extreme ease; he was not even slightly troubled.

Thirdly- yup, sorry, any interpretation of what 'Mandalorian' means is all EU, and it is not appropriate to this area.

That's how it is; please do not argue it.

Well then.....

Ordo
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Secondly it is amazingly plain that Windu dispatched Jango with extreme ease; he was not even slightly troubled.

Hence he had to jump of the balcony...erm

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Thirdly- yup, sorry, any interpretation of what 'Mandalorian' means is all EU, and it is not appropriate to this area.

That's how it is; please do not argue it.
Any interpretation? Seriously.

Lets Examine:

Both Boba and Jango were bounty hunters.
They are talented, skilled, and morally ambiguous.

Jango wanted a son.
Mandalorians are family men.

Young Boba new how to fly and demonstrated tactics from an early age. Tactical and combat skill are important Mandalorian values.

Jango and Boba worked as a team.
Father son relationships are important. Children are expected to perform.

Both spoke and understood a non-basic, uncommon language (Kenobi didn't appear to understand it).
Basic is not their primary languange.

Both wear the same style armor, but in different colors with slight modifications.
Armor is an important part of Mandalorian culture, but so is expressing a degree of customization and individuality.

We can't interpret this? Seriously? ALL of what I'm talking about now, 100%, is interpreted from the films. AOTC. ESB. ROTJ. Its simply asinine and ignorant to claim that you can't interpret ANYTHING from two characters that get more screentime and dialogue than major villians (Dooku, etc) in the saga. The 4th largest figure on the AOTC poster is JANGO, behind Skywalker, Amidala, and Kenobi. Mandalorians are important to the films. They get a lot of screentime for sideline characters. Any twit who thinks about movies instead of just watching them can interpret beyond what is spoken in a film.

I wouldn't argue it here if what I was arguing was EU. I've been here for years and I know the rules. I'm arguing because queeq made an ignorant statement, which you repeated.

Originally posted by queeq
There are no canon sources about who they were. So that's EU.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
any interpretation of what 'Mandalorian' means is all EU

Do you deny that the floors on the Death Star were shiny? Because no one in the movie comment "Damn! These floors are shiny!"

Likewise, do you deny the Emperor was evil? Or that the Empire was oppressive? That Luke had a somewhat tenuous relationship with Owen and Beru? That the rebels felt a moral right in fighting the Empire?

All these things are interpretations from the films. You and queeq would claim they are EU under your current logic. If you disagree that they are EU, you two should stop being hypocrites and allow me some interpretation under the films. Not on EU sources. On the films.

Raoul
Mace jumped off the balcony because of Jango AND the two super battle droids who were shooting at him. it wasn't just jango. not to mention Dooku standing right there.

also, set him on fire? his robe got a bit singed, and that's pretty much it.

then Mace did this:

qUdc8FHi5Lk

there's very little if any evidence that jango would give mace trouble one on one, imo.

and the Obi-Wan that fought Jango stood up to him with his hands tied and no lightsaber. and there was the big frickin ship nearby too.

Nactous
Originally posted by Ordo

Do you deny that the floors on the Death Star were shiny? Because no one in the movie comment "Damn! These floors are shiny!"

Likewise, do you deny the Emperor was evil? Or that the Empire was oppressive? That Luke had a somewhat tenuous relationship with Owen and Beru? That the rebels felt a moral right in fighting the Empire?

All these things are interpretations from the films. You and queeq would claim they are EU under your current logic. If you disagree that they are EU, you two should stop being hypocrites and allow me some interpretation under the films. Not on EU sources. On the films.

Those are all some weak examples because they are all pretty much visually self explanatory.

Not everything needs to be spelled out, people do have eyes to see these things afterall.

queeq
Originally posted by Ordo
Hence he had to jump of the balcony...erm


Any interpretation? Seriously.

Lets Examine:

Both Boba and Jango were bounty hunters.
They are talented, skilled, and morally ambiguous.

Jango wanted a son.
Mandalorians are family men.

Young Boba new how to fly and demonstrated tactics from an early age. Tactical and combat skill are important Mandalorian values.

Jango and Boba worked as a team.
Father son relationships are important. Children are expected to perform.

Both spoke and understood a non-basic, uncommon language (Kenobi didn't appear to understand it).
Basic is not their primary languange.

Both wear the same style armor, but in different colors with slight modifications.
Armor is an important part of Mandalorian culture, but so is expressing a degree of customization and individuality.

We can't interpret this? Seriously? ALL of what I'm talking about now, 100%, is interpreted from the films. AOTC. ESB. ROTJ. Its simply asinine and ignorant to claim that you can't interpret ANYTHING from two characters that get more screentime and dialogue than major villians (Dooku, etc) in the saga. The 4th largest figure on the AOTC poster is JANGO, behind Skywalker, Amidala, and Kenobi. Mandalorians are important to the films. They get a lot of screentime for sideline characters. Any twit who thinks about movies instead of just watching them can interpret beyond what is spoken in a film.

I wouldn't argue it here if what I was arguing was EU. I've been here for years and I know the rules. I'm arguing because queeq made an ignorant statement, which you repeated.



This all stems from a concept that Jango and Boba are in fact Mandalorians. I know their armour was considered Mandalorian, but I can't remember any canon source saying they are Mandalorian themselves.

Captain REX
In any case, I just watched the episode. Floppy hat aside, Cad Bane was actually pretty bad ass and the episode did a good job of portraying the bad guys as bad people, rather than incompetent idiots that the Jedi can mow down.

queeq
Agree.

Raoul
i didn't like the episode that much, personally. not the worst of the series by a long way. i thought the cowboy angle was a bit overdone at the start, but having aurra sing there was nice.

the one thing that annoyed me, though, was how easy it was for them. i find it hard to believe that in a time of war, the senate building and such would be that poorly defended...

in all, it was alright, i guess...

queeq
What's it gonna be? Allright or the worst? Or do the two not contradict each other. wink

Raoul
Originally posted by queeq
What's it gonna be? Allright or the worst? Or do the two not contradict each other. wink

lol. i said it wasnt the worst. some parts were alright. in general though, it wasn't great, imo.

queeq
The usual averageness of SW these days.

Raoul
Originally posted by queeq
The usual averageness of SW these days.

pretty much. and its a shame. the series itself shows promise, it just tends to focus in ahsoka WAY too much imo. it's not even that i don't like her, i do, but god. almost every single episode?

we get 1 kit fisto, 1 mace windu, 1 yoda (iirc) episode, etc etc, and yet imo, those episodes tend to be the best ones...

when we got to the ryloth eps, i thought the series was really starting to shift in the right direction, but dang...

Ordo
Better Ahsoka than another damn Kenobi epsiode. At least Ahsoka has the POTENTIAL to teach us something new about Star Wars (how padawans are trained...WHAT ITS LIKE GROWING UP IN A WAR!)

...but does the series focus on these critical problems?

No.

but you're right, the focus on other Jedi vs. Anakin/Kenobi should be flipped. This was NOT supposed to be the Skywalker story....

Raoul
Originally posted by Ordo
Better Ahsoka than another damn Kenobi epsiode. At least Ahsoka has the POTENTIAL to teach us something new about Star Wars (how padawans are trained...WHAT ITS LIKE GROWING UP IN A WAR!)

...but does the series focus on these critical problems?

No.

but you're right, the focus on other Jedi vs. Anakin/Kenobi should be flipped. This was NOT supposed to be the Skywalker story....

i like the obi-wan episodes, but i agree, it shouldn't be about just him and anakin... though i could do without as much ahsoka in series 2...

queeq
Yeah I agree. One could make a nice trilogy along the lines of Rookies. It kinda shows the potential for makng clones to star and not the usual suspects Anakin and OB1.

Ordo
All Filoni and Lucas talked about in promoting this series is how is was going to take Star Wars to new places, how is WASN'T the Skywalker story. Anakin was the most heavily featured Character in the entire effing season. It needs to stop.

Innocents was the start of that, even much more than Rookies. Waxer and Boil got the most screen time for any soldier in Star Wars....ever. Funny for a series name "WARS"

My point is this. One could make a nice SERIES along the lines of Rookies. It would actually show the war and star wars from a new perspective. The only new perspective this series seems to offer is from the perspective of a cartoon (which 1. was already done and 2. is a poor jumping off point for a show). There are a few common threads among the best episodes of the series (Ambush, Rookies, Cloak of Darkness, Jedi Crash, Innocents of Ryloth):

All feature clones....HEAVILY.

Thire, Rys, and Jek; Cody, Rex, Heavy; Gree; Bly, Rex; Cody, Waxer, Boil

Hidden Enemy would be in here too if not for the horrible prequel aspect (Cody, Rex, Slick). Hostage Crisis might be the exception.

Now I dont think this is just me liking clones. I think these episodes are fairly popular among the group. I think it just means good writers and storytellers recognize the potential here.

Personally, I'm sick of Jedi being the main characters in Star Wars. its what i love about the Commando novels, it take us OUT of those roles...not completely mind you...but out. This series NEEDS to take us into the military aspect of this war. If nothing else, it needs to take us away form the HOURS of screentime and 33 years of Lucas-thought that we have in the movies. This series is STARRING a brand new padawan, but I (and no one else I have talked to) really feel like I have seen the life or the War form Ahsoka's perspective. I don't feel like I've really felt the war form a clone's perspective. 'Course, I dont really feel like I've seen the war form anyone's perspective, but thats why this series is just a mound of mediocrity and not something I'm generally excited about anymore.

I dont feel like a single episode this season made me go "Wow. I really see things in a new way now." The messages are too cautious. The target age too young. The execution either too blatant or too muddled. I dont feel this series has invested anything in me. It hasn't tried to offer me anything. It doesn't even know what it IS for christ's sake. Fioloni thinks he can do a series with westerns, and romances, and actions, and comedies and that people with an attention span longer than 23 minutes will still find it cohesive. Its not. In fact, I find this the greatest flaw of the series.

Even when this is attempted (take Defenders of Peace, Hidden Enemy) Filoni/Lucas cant take it upon themselves to step outside of their (mutual) box. They present alternative views: The Jedi are not Pacifists, the Jedi are not always morally right. Thats great! I gave great props for both. BUT, by the end of the episode (or plotline) we've just established that the dissenters who have expressed these opinions are irrelevant. Tee Watt Kaa is ignored by the rest of the Lurmens and even submits he was wrong and Slick goes bat chit, blows everything up, then is hauled away as a traitor (and is given an inconstant message). The Jedi are shown as this pristine idol of little warm fuzzy things. This is a goddamn WAR...EVERYTHING done is morally questionable. Thats not addressed. We're still in second grade playing cops and robbers.

I want this series to bash some heads. CHALLENGE OUR PERSPECTIVE! (This is one reason I love the PT) THIS IS A CARTOON! Like Gendy, if fans hate it they can dismiss it. Instead we get this series that is trying to be everything to everyone and thus failing to be anything to anyone (though, in fairness, my good buddie's Kindergartners really love it.) Push some boundaries...beyond those of my patience. DO something. Make a statement. This series is so wishy-washy its aggravating.

Give us clones, a SERIES of Waxer and Boil. Switch the roles of the clones and the Jedi and this series and we'll have a much better template for success.

queeq
Wow, Ordo... I'm impressed.

Captain REX
My only two cents here are that Filoni is banking on the fact that the majority of fans want to see Jedi in action (from what I can tell, and just personally, if it is set in the Prequel era, I want Jedi), and that there is still the right and wrong, black and white aspect that Star Wars has had until the EU came along.

Ordo
Originally posted by queeq
Wow, Ordo... I'm impressed.

Thanks. All that education has to be good for something lol.

Originally posted by Captain REX
My only two cents here are that Filoni is banking on the fact that the majority of fans want to see Jedi in action (from what I can tell, and just personally, if it is set in the Prequel era, I want Jedi), and that there is still the right and wrong, black and white aspect that Star Wars has had until the EU came along.

Oh, I wont argue with any of that. Most Star Wars fans are Jedi/Sith fans. What I'm arguing is: If Lucas is trying to expand Star War's fan base, taking a military approach would be more productive than a child approach. When taking the EU to the big stage, fans will be pissed off regardless. However, its much easier to defend a "We took a new perspective and wanted to show a grittier side of Star Wars...what it was like in a war fighting UNDERNEATH these god like figures." instead of "we really wanted to get 5-year olds hooked on Star Wars." I appreciate that they are trying to make the "expand star Wars into animation argument too, but if they were really serious about it, they would have chosen a more avant-garde 2-D style ala Gendy. (not that the animation isn't beautiful, but I personally find it hard to defend as "cutting edge" in any artistic sense.)

I just find series more successful when they go hardcore (Battlestar Galactica and politics...OMG) is a great example, because it builds (well, expands on) a hardcore fanbase (I had to explain to the guys at work that Starbuck is no longer a guy). I find very little about Clone Wars to be hardcore. It may appeal to children now, but in 5 years, will they still talk about and watch the show? Will they buy the "Clone Wars Special Edition 5" 100 DVD pack? At this point I don't see that happening and I think the series falls short of what Star Wars is. It becomes something like Sesame Street that you have childhood nostalgia about, but would never go out of your way to watch.

The black and white is clearly there, and maybe I'm interpreting some of that OT moral totalitarianism as childishness or child-geared messages. Either way, I personally don't like it. The PT (in terms of morality) is Star Wars grown up. That's one of the reasons I love it (despite its very obvious flaws). I think Star Wars would do well to drop the black-and-white constructs that defined a lot of pre-Vietnam sci fi and adopt the more ambiguous morality of post-Cold war and 21st century sci-fi. I feel such an approach would still be able to reach younger and new fans, especially given the format while simultaneously reaching some established fans. The best part is that when those young kids grow up, they'll find more in the series than they ever thought was there and it will KEEP them being fans and wanting to discover more. It makes the show more than entertainment, which is what Star Wars has always been for me.

queeq
Originally posted by Ordo
Thanks. All that education has to be good for something lol.



You had an education? Where can I get one? wink

Ordo
Not in the UK!

OOOOOOHHHH BUUUUUURNNNNN

(actually we're all just hicks here)

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Ordo
Hence he had to jump of the balcony...erm


Any interpretation? Seriously.

Lets Examine:

Both Boba and Jango were bounty hunters.
They are talented, skilled, and morally ambiguous.

Jango wanted a son.
Mandalorians are family men.

Young Boba new how to fly and demonstrated tactics from an early age. Tactical and combat skill are important Mandalorian values.

Jango and Boba worked as a team.
Father son relationships are important. Children are expected to perform.

Both spoke and understood a non-basic, uncommon language (Kenobi didn't appear to understand it).
Basic is not their primary languange.

Both wear the same style armor, but in different colors with slight modifications.
Armor is an important part of Mandalorian culture, but so is expressing a degree of customization and individuality.

We can't interpret this? Seriously? ALL of what I'm talking about now, 100%, is interpreted from the films. AOTC. ESB. ROTJ. Its simply asinine and ignorant to claim that you can't interpret ANYTHING from two characters that get more screentime and dialogue than major villians (Dooku, etc) in the saga. The 4th largest figure on the AOTC poster is JANGO, behind Skywalker, Amidala, and Kenobi. Mandalorians are important to the films. They get a lot of screentime for sideline characters. Any twit who thinks about movies instead of just watching them can interpret beyond what is spoken in a film.

I wouldn't argue it here if what I was arguing was EU. I've been here for years and I know the rules. I'm arguing because queeq made an ignorant statement, which you repeated.





Do you deny that the floors on the Death Star were shiny? Because no one in the movie comment "Damn! These floors are shiny!"

Likewise, do you deny the Emperor was evil? Or that the Empire was oppressive? That Luke had a somewhat tenuous relationship with Owen and Beru? That the rebels felt a moral right in fighting the Empire?

All these things are interpretations from the films. You and queeq would claim they are EU under your current logic. If you disagree that they are EU, you two should stop being hypocrites and allow me some interpretation under the films. Not on EU sources. On the films.

ALL of this is complete irrelevant idiocy. They are never referred to as Mandalorians. 'Mandalorian' remaions an EU concept. All you are doing there is interpreting the FETTS, not 'Mandalorians'. Quite how you could miss such a simple point is beyond me. You've just wasted everyone's time with that post. And you dare call us ignorant for this? Pathetic.

Now, if you make any more spectacular waste-of-time posts after I have specifically instructed you not to argue the point, you will be warned.

queeq
*Merlin voice from Excalibur* 'You have awoken him."

Ushgarak
Wait, are you saying I'm gay? Because he was an awesome Merlin but... you know...

But I honestly shouldn't have to remind any serious fan that the term 'Mandalorian' is nothing to do with the films and all to do with the EU. It's not my fault GL didn't decide to canonize the term in AOTC; that's just the way it is. Whether it is because he didn't care or because he didn't like the idea I don't know, but that he didn't do it is very telling (unlike the term 'Coruscant' and especially 'Sith' which he fully canonised and promptly messed up all EU interpretations of the term, no-one ever expecting there would be only two).

So to use such a false pretence to debate a mod of the section making a ruling... that needs stomping on sharply.

queeq
Hey I agree with you. I said something along similar lines, the post was rubbish. I just couldn't remember if the phrase Mandalorian was ever used in the canon novels... if only referring to the armour. Canonwise there are no known Mandalorians. And even deriving character traits for an entire race based on one father and a sons is absolutely ridiculous.

(and the Merlin quote was referring to you suddenly appearing... like the dragon. Ordo was weaving the mist. wink )

"Can't you see all round you, the dragon's breath."

I love that movie.

Nactous
Ohhhh....Mod Fight!!!!

Ordo
Originally posted by Ushgarak
ALL of this is complete irrelevant idiocy. They are never referred to as Mandalorians. 'Mandalorian' remaions an EU concept. All you are doing there is interpreting the FETTS, not 'Mandalorians'. Quite how you could miss such a simple point is beyond me. You've just wasted everyone's time with that post. And you dare call us ignorant for this? Pathetic.

Now, if you make any more spectacular waste-of-time posts after I have specifically instructed you not to argue the point, you will be warned.

The only waste of time and space here is your continuous attempts to tear me down. Your myopic ignorance is stunning. Fetts, Mandalorians? SO KARKING WHAT THEY'RE CALLED? They're in the films. I never ARGUED that the "term" was used in the film. You're making up an argument that doesn't exist and then trying to ban me for it. Nice.

We see Y-wings in the film, we see A-wings and B-wings, but you don't karking OFF anyone who refers to the TERM "A-wings" and "B-wings" as arguing or discussing EU. Those terms are NOT in the films, yet we can clearly discuss how they fly or what their tactical purpose is per the films. You dont force others to call them "ships" or deny that they have no aspect in canon. What a retarded, ignorant double standard. (Though, if would start enforcing such anal rules, I would gladly acquiesce.)

How you cant see that point is beyond me, but I guess when you dont even properly interpret the points I'm making...its easy. I agree with your karking point. "Mandalorian" ISN'T IN THE FILM. I'm NOT arguing it. I'm saying aspects of Mandalorians are canon. The EU concept is derived from canon.

Whats embarrassing is that you are using your modship to ENFORCE your point of view on what we both clearly agree is the most irrelevant issue. I have wasted no ones time. Speak for yourself, not "everyone." I respect the rules here. I dropped EU discussion when queeq asked. I don't respect high-on-power hypocrites who expect their faulty opinons not to be debated.

I've made my points. I was done with this osik days ago (i dont even remember when it was). You keep continuing it. I have not broken any rules here. Queeq can say "Ordo, you're an idiot" and we can both move on. Why can't you do the same?

Originally posted by queeq
And even deriving character traits for an entire race based on one father and a sons is absolutely ridiculous.

Its a culture, not a race, which shows how unqualified you are to discuss the topic.

Romans made and wore Roman armor. It was part of their military and social culture. If you're in the 2nd century and see someone in Roman armor, it'd be a safe bet they're Roman. Armor is highly cultural.

Culture judgement are made ALL the time in Star Wars...look at the Nemoidians.

Ushgarak
First of all, the ship terms are used in the scripts and so forth, not to mention the marketing and various official discussions of them- whereas Mandalorian was only ever, EVER used in the EU as a descriptive term and has absolutely no bearing on then films whatsoever. NONE. That's a pretty feeble position you have adopted there. Everyone knows they are an EU creation. Meanwhile, in analysing the Fetts you are just analysing two people- not a culture, or a race, or any such thing. Just two people who share a style in armour, and that only beause son as following the father. Meaningless in connection to anything wider. The whole idea that the armour means anything, that there is any culture involved, that it is anything other than just armour Jango designed and/or bought, the idea that he is anything other than just a lone (though talented) bounty hunter... all EU. The whole Mandalorian thing is EU. You've lost perspective

The rest of your post is just again waste of time nonsense because I have correctly called you out on something again. And trying to pretend we were agreeing- when a look at your previous posting makes it pretty darn obvious that we were not, and you are just now trying to backtrack- So as said, I am now giving you your official warning. Keep it up and it is a ban. The same goes for if you make another one of your attacks on the moderators.

The only person embarrassing himself here is you. What you say about breaking rules and respect is neither here nor there- you have plainly broken the rules by arguing the point and attacking the mods. Next time- ban.

Ordo
Originally posted by queeq
Ordo was weaving the mist. wink

If you're nto going to act like a friend, dont make jokes about me like I am one.

Nactous
Hmm, this is difficult. Who to side with?

What do you think Jac?

THE JLRTENJAC
I don't know man, they both have pretty good points... and some pretty bad ones. Ush, however does seem to have his finger over the "ban" button though, and I'd rather keep my record ban-free.

This isn't our fight.

Nactous
Never said it was, there is no rule against commentating now is there. Hmm... but you right. Sorry Ordo, your on your own.

THE JLRTENJAC
laughing out loud true. I don't know though... I could have sworn I saw the word Mandilorian in my copy of the Episode 2 script.

Nactous
Did you see the episode Jac?

THE JLRTENJAC
no. I got bored with the series around episode 11.

Nactous
Its the only good episode.

THE JLRTENJAC
May have to watch it at some point.

TGFY (Thank God for Youtube. wink)

Nactous
Better quality to get it off the official site.

Ushgarak
Err, actually there IS a rule against off-topic posting as you guys just did. Cut that kind of thing out.

Nactous
Anyway, how about that Bane?

Ushgarak
Baiting me like that is a way to get warned also. You really have to sort out your attitude.

Nactous
I'm just glad we're talking again.

But, to get back on topic, one problam I had was the fact that Aurra's past Jedi hunting experience wasnt elaborated on.

queeq
What fight? Mod fight? Hardly. And the dragon remark was a joke, Ordo. And a reference to a favourite movie of mine, quoting one of my fav lines. Consider it an honour. Mandalorians are EU, that's the end of it. No need to fight over it. Ush and I agree on the matter.

As for Aurra Singh, yeah, I'd expect her wanting the lightsabre as a trophy or something.

Captain REX
Nac, you really need to know when to butt out. You're antagonizing again, as always. Jac, don't join in.

And same here, I was slightly annoyed that they didn't elaborate on Aurra Sing. And yet I'm glad she wasn't the focus of the episode; Cad Bane made a convincing villain! If it had been all about Aurra going 'Oh, I want the Jedi lightsaber!' then we wouldn't have been focusing on the threat of Bane. He was obviously in charge, no matter what skill Sing has.

Nactous
Originally posted by Captain REX
Nac, you really need to know when to butt out. You're antagonizing again, as always. Jac, don't join in.

And same here, I was slightly annoyed that they didn't elaborate on Aurra Sing. And yet I'm glad she wasn't the focus of the episode; Cad Bane made a convincing villain! If it had been all about Aurra going 'Oh, I want the Jedi lightsaber!' then we wouldn't have been focusing on the threat of Bane. He was obviously in charge, no matter what skill Sing has.

Oh Jesus, I never antagonize ... wink

But yes, I think the focus should have been more on Bane as well. One line might have been all she needed anyway.

queeq
Perhaps. Maybe next season we'll see her again.

Ordo
Most definitely. Why would they pay to build another character model?

Thats why all the Senators in any previous episode made into this one. lol

queeq
Why would they pay to make this series at all? laughing out loud

Ordo
Because they feel their revenues will outpace their expenditures. This is called profit, and has been Lucas' main goal since May 26th 1977.

Saving money on models solely reduces expenditures while enabling more product: Simply increasing profit.

wink

queeq
Kaaa-ching!

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