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The Empire from Star Wars versus the Alien fleet from Independence day.

The ID4 fleet has found the SW universe and have decided to use it for it's natural resources, just as they planned to do to Earth in the movie "Independence Day." The Empire recognizes the threat at the last minute and launch every Star Destroyer and TIE fighter (And whatever else they had in the Star Wars movies) to intercept and destroy the ID4 fleet.

Below is a map of the Star Wars universe:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/vpmap2.jpg

The ID4 fleet must enter SW space on the outskirts of the universe (Kathol sector, Ssi-Ruuk star cluster, Tingel arm, Wild space, etc and make their way to Coruscant to achieve victory. Whereever they decide to enter, the Empire will be waiting for them. Can the ID4 fleet make it to Coruscant? If not, how far will they make it?


SCENARIO 1: No Death Star for the Empire.

SCENARIO 2:The Empire has the Death Star from Episode 4.

SCENARIO 3: The Empire has the Death Star from Episode 4 AND the partially completed Death Star from Episode 6.

Given that we know the ID4 ship has a diameter of 150km and a mass of roughly 1/4 of earth's moon.

The death star is said to be roughly the same size.

There is no evidence that the ID4 mothership has any large weapon or even small energy weapons with which to defend itself

We also know that it carries it's entire population within it where as the death star is only a tiny fraction of the imperial army.

I'd say the ID4 ships have it when bombarding cities but not so sure about the small fighters against the tie fighters.

I'd say star wars takes it by sheer numbers with or without the death star.

I was thinking exactly that, the sheer number of TIE's would be overwhelming. There were alot of alien fighters as well, but I am pretty sure the Empire has far more.

Another question. Shields. Star Destroyers have shields, TIE's do not. We must consider that. Also, would a Star Destroyer be able to penetrate the shields of the ID4 attack crafts? Or the Death star?

The ID4 aliens can be taken out by 20th century viruses.


This is not even close.


However, the alien fighters are better than the Tie Fighters.

The mid sized alien ships are more powerful than the Star Destroyers and the Super Star Destroyers. They have shields that not even the largest hydrogen bombs can do a thing to. On top of that, they have that city destroying cannon that is far more powerful than anything the empire has other than the death star.


All the aliens have to do is keep the mother ship out of the firing range of the Death Star and the mid sized ships could probably take out the entire imperial army, death star and all, and lose only a few mid sized ships.



That is...until someone uploads a virus into their systems.





RJ, clarify. Can the Empire use a virus like the earthlings did in the movie? If not, then the aliens whin all three scenarios. If yes, then they may not even win the first. The Empire is HUGE.

OK, the Empire is free to use any and all means to win. No holds barred, dude.

BTW, a Star Destroyer is far more powerful than the mid size alien ships, they are STAR destroyers.

Then the question would be: Have the empire ever used a Virus to try and disable the shields of a opponent and would they even consider doing it... Not even if we take into account the Expanded Universe can I come up with a single incident where they did this...

Actually the question would be does the Empire have the capability of figuring it out, as Jeff Goldblum did?

Also, the ID4 fleet would have to deal with the Empire's shields.

What good is figuring it out if they cannot use it? I mean have the empire ever planted a Virus on another ship to lower the shields?

But only on the Star Destroyers, the tie fighters are no more difficult to kill then the F-16, they only require one shoot.

All I am saying is that if a lowly cable TV guy here on Earth can figure out how to lower their shields, surely the Empire has a mind or two that will figure it out also.

And we are forgetting that the Empire has shields too. How will the ID4 fleet destroy the second Death Star, or even a star destroyer? We also dont even know if the ID4 landing craft's shields can survive one or even multiple death star blasts. We see the ID4 ships deflecting weapons from OUR universe, NOT plasma blasts and planet destroying blasts.

That lowly Cable TV Guy was a former student at MIT and had extensive knowlegde about the way their technology worked in combination with oure own thanks to him working at that cable station, none on the entire earth except him had figured out that the Aliens was using the satellits to broadcast their orders etc, But again I frankly doesn't see how knowing how to disable the shields will help the empire because they still have to get someone inside the main alien Mothership to upload the Virus (provided they can even make a virus without having one of the Aliens Airpods), and they can only get inside with another Alien ship and since this entire battle takes place in well space, It wouldn't exactly be easy to get hold of one.

We isn't forgetting that the Empire Star Destroyers have shields, we are just recalling that the Tie Fighters doesn't have shields which would basically make them well cannon fodder at the front line. Well I would imagine that simply prolonged bombardment from the Small Alien Aircrafts would sooner ore later bring down the Star Destroyer, especially if they go for the Brigde. You are correct we doesn't know if it can survive a Death Star blast (it's doubtfull) but I'm simply debating the first scenario the two last scenarios are (because the death star like you say will most likely just blast the Alien Mothership to dust at the opening effectively shutting down the rest of the ships) pretty straight forward imo.

Having that alien fighter just happened to be the way the earthlings destroyed the shields, that's all, I am sure there is more than one way. Doesn't the mother ship have to lower it's shields to release fighters/landing craft? You cant say "Well the Empire doesnt have an alien craft to dock with the mother ship, they are screwed", thats incredibly narrow minded.

How exactly? The city destoying blast ones, toke a freaking nuke without being damaged, granted we doesn't know if it could have taken another, but as far as I know Star Destroyers doesn't exactly carry around nukes, and the Fighters would generally be hard to hit for the Turbolasers.

I'm not even sure if the Mothership have a shield, and if I recall the City ships didn't have to lower their shields in order to deploy the Alien Vessels.

And Yes RJ, I can claim that if they cannot dock they are screwed but only if you are going to place the entire fights outcome on whether ore not the Empire can upload a Virus to the Mothership. Then I'm really free to say that without a Alien Ship they isn't going to get inside the mothership, getting hooked up and getting the chance of transfering the Virus. Unless you think they are just going to pilot a Tie Fighter in there?

Originally posted by Utrigita
How exactly? The city destoying blast ones, toke a freaking nuke without being damaged, granted we doesn't know if it could have taken another, but as far as I know Star Destroyers doesn't exactly carry around nukes, and the Fighters would generally be hard to hit for the Turbolasers.
You telling me that star destroyers do not carry weaponry as strong as/stronger than a nuke?

And we see the ID4's alien fighters shields deflecting sidewinder missiles, NOT multiple laser blasts.

Then how did the fighters/landing craft get from point A (docked with the mother ship) to point B (away from the mother ship)? The shields have to have been lowered, man, even if only for a few seconds.

During these few seconds, TIE's will be able to swarm inside the mother ship and wreak havoc. TIE's, unlike f18's, can encircle the mother ship and wait for their chance to enter. And yes, with the technology aboard the star destroyers, they will be able to tell when the mother ship lowers it's shieldsand order the TIE's to attack. Hell, even a Death Star blast as the shields lower would do the job.

If the Empire is earthbound and fighting with F18's, you are correct. But they aren't, are they?


Again, as the mothership releases it's fighters/landing craft, the shields are lowered!!! Why is this so hard to understand?

Another SW masturbation Vs. thread. Joy.

Nah, just reality.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You telling me that star destroyers do not carry weaponry as strong as/stronger than a nuke?

Based on the Movie does they?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And we see the ID4's alien fighters shields deflecting sidewinder missiles, NOT multiple laser blasts.

Correct but since all the power to the Shield apparently originate from the Mothership (which we know it does) then they will have to overload the Shields not just penetrate them.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Then how did the fighters/landing craft get from point A (docked with the mother ship) to point B (away from the mother ship)? The shields have to have been lowered, man, even if only for a few seconds.

As I previously said, I'm not sure that the Mothership even has shield atleast not in the traditionel sense. And yes that is how we normally would interpret the shields, that they have to be lowered in order for a Plane to be launched, however based on that the Shields apparently became active the moment the missiles got within 100 meters I think, there is from my point of view their are numerous possibilities on how they work, one would be that they are constantly active in some sort of inactive state until detecting a threat in it's immidiate perimeter, another would be that they are constantly on but the small shield on the Pods registre them as friends and opens the shield in that space for a short amount of time. etc etc

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
During these few seconds, TIE's will be able to swarm inside the mother ship and wreak havoc. TIE's, unlike f18's, can encircle the mother ship and wait for their chance to enter. And yes, with the technology aboard the star destroyers, they will be able to tell when the mother ship lowers it's shieldsand order the TIE's to attack. Hell, even a Death Star blast as the shields lower would do the job.

Yeah I'm sure the Tie Fighters will be perfectly capable of swarming into a opening if it hadn't been for the Alien fighters poaring out of there. Yes it's a possibility but not really likely they will swarm into the Mothership since it will probably be from the city leveling ships that the Fighters will be deployed. Unless you are planning on having the empire well launched equipped etc while the aliens have barely entered the system that is how you make it sound, I have already stated that I'm not interested in debating the two other scenarios since they are pretty loopsided imo.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
If the Empire is earthbound and fighting with F18's, you are correct. But they aren't, are they?

Then please tell me what exactly make you believe that they are capable of getting a Virus into the Aliens database system, because I don't at all see the point you are trying to make.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Again, as the mothership releases it's fighters/landing craft, the shields are lowered!!! Why is this so hard to understand?

This is the second time you even bring up that it lowers the shields a point I have barely addressed so.... and well it's something that you zero proof of that it does, If I recall correctly the shield on the Fighter in Area 51 wasn't shown before the Colonel fired a shot at it, for all we know that could be how it react to outside energy, but to say that it has to lower the shield simply because that is the way they do in star wars isn't good proof imho.

FFS why haven't people uploaded something from this movie on Youtube?

Originally posted by Utrigita
Correct but since all the power to the Shield apparently originate from the Mothership (which we know it does) then they will have to overload the Shields not just penetrate them. And in your opinion, coinciding blasts from both Death star's, as well as several if not hundreds of Star destroyers, will not be enough to do this?



So from what I gather in the last part of this, the shields would recognize their own craft and open the shields for a short time, allowing them to exit/enter the mother ship?



The Empire has so many TIE's it is sickening. When struck by a missile, the ID4 fighters, while staying shielded, were also thrown off course, remember? Several TIE's firing rapid fire laser blasts would clear the way for at least a few TIE's to enter the mother ship and destroy it from within.



The point I am making is that with the technology the Empire possesses, they will certainly have more options than the virus.



Remember when the shields went down, THEN the fighters emerged?

I am fairly certain that in the movie, when David is explaining how to give the mother ship a "cold", it is implied that the shields must be lowered first. Also as he and Hiller approach. When I get home tomorrow, I'll check and see.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And in your opinion, coinciding blasts from both Death star's, as well as several if not hundreds of Star destroyers, will not be enough to do this?

Again I'm not debating death star. Personally I think the Star Destroyers will be more focused on trying to keep alive, they doesn't know that the Beam fired by the City Ships has to be targeted in the middle in order for them to blow up and with those comming down low opening up on the way, they will be a distraction from the Mothership, well along with the many thousands of small ships flying around constantly hammering it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
So from what I gather in the last part of this, the shields would recognize their own craft and open the shields for a short time, allowing them to exit/enter the mother ship?

Yeah but only in that particular space, but that is however just my analyses on the case, I'm not a expert but having watched the scene again I would say that it's probably the way they do it, ore perhaps getting out is simply easier then getting in, again I have no idea.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
the Empire has so many TIE's it is sickening. When struck by a missile, the ID4 fighters, while staying shielded, were also thrown off course, remember? Several TIE's firing rapid fire laser blasts would clear the way for at least a few TIE's to enter the mother ship and destroy it from within.

Let's get one thing completely straight here RJ, and that is that the Fighters from the Alien side got Shield the Tie Fighters doesn't, so even if we assume that the Aliens just open their hangar door for them and welcome them inside (with Fighters poaring out) the amount of fire the tie fighters would need to lay down would be staggering not forgetting the fact that the Aliens actually fire back. And what exactly lead you to believe that a few tie Fighters can take out the entire Mothership?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The point I am making is that with the technology the Empire possesses, they will certainly have more options than the virus.

Based on the Movies? I disagree, the Empire have in the movies never to my knowlegde nore in the EU used any kind of what I would call electronic warfare against a opponent.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Remember when the shields went down, THEN the fighters emerged?

I do yes, however I recall the first time where it seemed like the Fighters emerged regardless of the shield, unless you think that they would willing keep themselves open for attack for based on what I can see in the movie more then 10 seconds with enemies around? and the fighters would probably have emerged regardless.

anyway the movie http://en.cinemawiki.tv/movie/movie_Independence+Day.html the initial dogfight is around 54-55.

Scenario I: Darth Vader pwns.
Scenario II: Empire curbstomps.
Scenario III: Empire curbstomps.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I am fairly certain that in the movie, when David is explaining how to give the mother ship a "cold", it is implied that the shields must be lowered first. Also as he and Hiller approach. When I get home tomorrow, I'll check and see.

Nope it isn't just checked. However I think the Enter hard Exit easy is probably right, recall when Steve backed the Fighter back into the firing ramp (perhaps the Shield was still ineffective) yet it made contact with platform, but the F-16 that struck the fighter during the initial battle was destroyed where the Fighter was fine so....

Originally posted by Utrigita
Again I'm not debating death star. Personally I think the Star Destroyers will be more focused on trying to keep alive, they doesn't know that the Beam fired by the City Ships has to be targeted in the middle in order for them to blow up and with those comming down low opening up on the way, they will be a distraction from the Mothership, well along with the many thousands of small ships flying around constantly hammering it.Well, as far as we know, the city destroying beams are just that, and in no way will they be effective against a shielded star destroyer. Even if the beam would shred a star destroyer, the beam is always aimed down, and surely a half competent Moff or Admiral would figure out to stay outta the line of fire.



TIE's are orbital craft, when they see the alien fighters being deployed, all they have to do is swarm.



Again, the Empire has so many TIE's it is unreal. TIE bombers, dude, TIE bombers.



OK, you saying a star destroyer or death star is like the same as Earth technology? The SW universe is full of technology that is FAR more advanced than what we possess.

They have men capable of building DEATH STAR'S, dude, surely finding a way around an opponents will be childplay for them.


It could be that somehow the craft can pass through the shields from the inside out, OR it could be that a small section of the shield was opened. Many possibilities. Whatever the case, the Empire would find and exploit it.

On a side note, look at this page, about halfway down on the right:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE_series


TIE Mauler? wtf haermm

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Well, as far as we know, the city destroying beams are just that, and in no way will they be effective against a shielded star destroyer. Even if the beam would shred a star destroyer, the beam is always aimed down, and surely a half competent Moff or Admiral would figure out to stay outta the line of fire.

Yes like even a half competent person would know that open one of the doors where the enemy is directly outside is simply stupid. But then again I saw that when the Helicopter tried to communicate with the Alien a bay was opened and it was simply shoot down from inside, I'm however not aware if it was simply a Fighter shooting ore if they have some kind of battery installetions they can use when they doesn't wish to deploy the entire fighter armada.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
TIE's are orbital craft, when they see the alien fighters being deployed, all they have to do is swarm.

Then it will be Swarm vs Swarm, imo in such a scenario the Aliens will come out on top. Again simply because of the shields.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Again, the Empire has so many TIE's it is unreal. TIE bombers, dude, TIE bombers.

Not exactly of any greater use in the current argument, sure they can bomb the Mothership and the City Destroyers but they wouldn't be very effective against the Fighters.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK, you saying a star destroyer or death star is like the same as Earth technology? The SW universe is full of technology that is FAR more advanced than what we possess.

They have men capable of building DEATH STAR'S, dude, surely finding a way around an opponents will be childplay for them.

Sure they built the Death Star, and the Aliens created a beam that can level Washington DC in a single blast... I know the sheer size of destruction isn't compareble but pure technology wise they seems about equal, however nothing you have said so far concerning one of your tactics is how you are going to get the virus ore whatever it is you want to use to bring down the shield, uploaded inside, the fact that Star Wars Technology > Oure technology doesn't mean that, what we could figure out < what they can figure out. Remember that David only found their weakness because of 1. He had access to Fighter. 2. Because he discovered that they was using the satellits to delay orders between the ships.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
It could be that somehow the craft can pass through the shields from the inside out, OR it could be that a small section of the shield was opened. Many possibilities. Whatever the case, the Empire would find and exploit it.

If the shield only react to when a outside object is trying to make contact then frankly no the Empire isn't going to find anything to exploit. But ultimately I don't see how the empire is going to win the first scenario, especially not if we assume that the Mothership have some kind of Shield too...

Originally posted by Utrigita
Yes like even a half competent person would know that open one of the doors where the enemy is directly outside is simply stupid. But then again I saw that when the Helicopter tried to communicate with the Alien a bay was opened and it was simply shoot down from inside, I'm however not aware if it was simply a Fighter shooting ore if they have some kind of battery installetions they can use when they doesn't wish to deploy the entire fighter armada. Given the fact that we are not shown any laser cannons, it must have been a fighter.



OK...How many TIE's do you think the Empire has at it's disposal? All the star destroyers in the universe, not to mention various bases chocked full of TIE's, how many? There's a reason the Empire employs the twin ion engine. Low maintenance, due to the high number if fighters it employs. I am fairly certain that if the Empire unleashes it's full might upon the alien armada, the number of TIE's would overwhelm the alien fighters.

And again, we don't know how well an alien craft would hold up against non stop rapid fire laser blasts, not to emotion the fire from the start destroyers. Probably not very well.



I just covered this.



Dude, the sheer fact that the Death Star can blow up a damn planet with a single blast is all the evidence needed to prove the Empire wins. Planet...city......planet bigger!!!

And I keep telling you, the Empire would certainly have far more options than "giving the mother ship a cold." It's a no brainer that the SW technology is more advanced than ours, so it's also a no brainer to assume that the Empire would have more than one option.



The first scenario certainly works in the alien's favor, but 2 and 3, the Empire pwns them, hard.

Also, the ID4 alien fighters would never catch the TIE's. We see the ID4 alien fighters chasing down F18's, which have a top speed of Mach 1.8 (1188 mph.) TIE's fly MUCH faster than this. Proof? Lookit this scene from ROTJ:

TGMvadAFqLQ


At 7:22, look how fast Wedge's X Wing is going. And the TIE's go at least that fast.

Also, at 2:07, dude, look at how many star destroyers are coming out of hyperspace. And at 2:09, look at the TIE's, dude, I cant even count how many.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Nah, just reality.

You put a galactic empire (key words, galactic empire) Vs. a bunch of ships. Might as well make a Superman Vs. Wolverine thread.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi


Which brings us full circle to:

Originally posted by Robtard
Another SW masturbation Vs. thread. Joy.

You done?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You done?

I'm not the one masturbating over SW, so are you done?

On that note, it's safe to say Utrigita is masturbating over ID4, yes?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
On that note, it's safe to say Utrigita is masturbating over ID4, yes?

I'm not following the debate, as you made a one-sided fight, as noted.

If he's arguing that the ID4 team has a chance against the SW empire in all it's entirety, he probably is.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK, the Empire is free to use any and all means to win. No holds barred, dude.

BTW, a Star Destroyer is far more powerful than the mid size alien ships, they are STAR destroyers.

"Star Destroyer" is its name, and NOT it's function. A Star Destroyer canNOT destroy a star...at least, not how the death star can destroy a planet. I'm sure that if a Death Star fired into a small star enough, it could disrupt the star and cause it to fizzle out...millions or billions of years into the future...who knows....but it is not a literal Star Destroyer. A hydrogen bomb's explosion has greater energy and "destructive force" than the blaster cannons, laser cannons, and turbolasers on the Star Destroyers. No, they could not take out a mid sized invasion ship from the Aliens. Out classed, out gunned by those alien ships. Those shields are more than powerful enough to withstand any laser cannon fire that can be thrown at it. Actually, not even close to being able to put a dent in those shields.




Since you clarified the virus problem, then what I'm talking about doesn't even matter. One stupid virus upload disables the whole alien fleet, and it's game over by sheer numbers from the Empire.

^ Actually, they have to get inside the mothership, close to the the control core to upload the virus. The humans succeeded cause they used one of their own ships to gain access and remain undetected.

Anyway, I'm sure the aliens have installed the latest windows critcal patches by now.

Having built 2 death stars, the odds are good that the empire might have something matching the level of technology of a 1995 Mac laptop and therefore:

Scenario A: Empire rapes those stupid puppets

Scenario B: Same as scenario A, but after wards some of the stormies order pizza.

Scenario C: Variation on scenario A, but with 2 buttons being pressed by a couple of captains on the respective deathstar gunneries, before one of them yawns, scracthes his ass and goes back to sleep.


Scenario D: Its a Will Smith movie, so Will Smith blows up both Death Stars and goes home for a barbeque, just cause its Will Smith..

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Having built 2 death stars, the odds are good that the empire might have something matching the level of technology of a 1995 Mac laptop

Nah, have you seen the crappy TV displays they use?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Having built 2 death stars, the odds are good that the empire might have something matching the level of technology of a 1995 Mac laptop and therefore:


Did you factor in the sheer idiocy of the Empire, though? I.E. build a massive doomsday weapon, yet leave it susceptible to being destroyed by a single shot.

Originally posted by dadudemon
"Star Destroyer" is its name, and NOT it's function. A Star Destroyer canNOT destroy a star...at least, not how the death star can destroy a planet. I'm sure that if a Death Star fired into a small star enough, it could disrupt the star and cause it to fizzle out...millions or billions of years into the future...who knows....but it is not a literal Star Destroyer. A hydrogen bomb's explosion has greater energy and "destructive force" than the blaster cannons, laser cannons, and turbolasers on the Star Destroyers. No, they could not take out a mid sized invasion ship from the Aliens. Out classed, out gunned by those alien ships. Those shields are more than powerful enough to withstand any laser cannon fire that can be thrown at it. Actually, not even close to being able to put a dent in those shields.




Since you clarified the virus problem, then what I'm talking about doesn't even matter. One stupid virus upload disables the whole alien fleet, and it's game over by sheer numbers from the Empire. Well, I was talking about concentrated fire from several star destroyers at once, sorry if I wasnt clear on that. That, in addition to a blast or two from the death stars, surely the shields will at the very least weaken.

Originally posted by Placidity
^ Actually, they have to get inside the mothership, close to the the control core to upload the virus. The humans succeeded cause they used one of their own ships to gain access and remain undetected.

Anyway, I'm sure the aliens have installed the latest windows critcal patches by now. So in your opinion, the only chance the Empire has is to use the virus?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Having built 2 death stars, the odds are good that the empire might have something matching the level of technology of a 1995 Mac laptop THIS is what I am saying.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Well, I was talking about concentrated fire from several star destroyers at once, sorry if I wasnt clear on that. That, in addition to a blast or two from the death stars, surely the shields will at the very least weaken.

The Death Star destroys (ie obliterates) planets with one hit, it stands to reason it could destroy the alien's mothership in one hit.

Ya think?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Ya think?

I do, you seemed to think a few DS hits would only weaken the shielding.

I said "at the very least."

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Also, the ID4 alien fighters would never catch the TIE's. We see the ID4 alien fighters chasing down F18's, which have a top speed of Mach 1.8 (1188 mph.) TIE's fly MUCH faster than this. Proof? Lookit this scene from ROTJ:

TGMvadAFqLQ


At 7:22, look how fast Wedge's X Wing is going. And the TIE's go at least that fast.

Also, at 2:07, dude, look at how many star destroyers are coming out of hyperspace. And at 2:09, look at the TIE's, dude, I cant even count how many.

Actually, you're incorrect on which fighters are faster.


Remember that they flew an old, beat up, human technology repaired, alien fighter, to the mother ship. That means it had to reach an escape velocity to escape the Earth's gravitational pull. (I did some of these very same physics problems in college...lol)

The Alien Ships escape velocity had to be at least 11.2 Km/s. (Don't quote me on that number because that is from memory. I could be off...it might be 11.3...but I'm almost positive it is 11.2...I just don't feel like looking that up.) Meaning, even the little fighters could go very fast...at the very least, try 40320 KPH.



Also, fighting speed of the Tie Fighters (dog fights) appears to be very very slow. However, in the Tie's favor, they are MUCH more maneuverable. Even in video games, the maneuverability is much better in the ties than other ships like the X-Wing. (Which is why I like the Tie fighters...weak as heck...but very maneuverable.)



Edit- In fact, didn't they say it would take 3 hours to reach the mother ship in the film. I should go back and watch...that will tell us what top cruising speed the fighter can travel, because we know the distance to the moon...the diamter of the moon, and we'll throw in an extra 50,000 KM for good measure as a distance between the mother ship and the moon.

Doube edit- It wouldn't be the diamter of the moon. It would be pi * diameter of the "travel around the moon from the center of the moon.." that would be the diamter...to find the actuall physica distance travled.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, you're incorrect on which fighters are faster.


Remember that they flew an old, beat up, human technology repaired, alien fighter, to the mother ship. That means it had to reach an escape velocity to escape the Earth's gravitational pull. (I did some of these very same physics problems in college...lol)

The Alien Ships escape velocity had to be at least 11.2 Km/s. (Don't quote me on that number because that is from memory. I could be off...it might be 11.3...but I'm almost positive it is 11.2...I just don't feel like looking that up.) Meaning, even the little fighters could go very fast...at the very least, try 40320 KPH.



Also, fighting speed of the Tie Fighters (dog fights) appears to be very very slow. However, in the Tie's favor, they are MUCH more maneuverable. Even in video games, the maneuverability is much better in the ties than other ships like the X-Wing. (Which is why I like the Tie fighters...weak as heck...but very maneuverable.)



Edit- In fact, didn't they say it would take 3 hours to reach the mother ship in the film. I should go back and watch...that will tell us what top cruising speed the fighter can travel, because we know the distance to the moon...the diamter of the moon, and we'll throw in an extra 50,000 KM for good measure as a distance between the mother ship and the moon.

Doube edit- It wouldn't be the diamter of the moon. It would be pi * diameter of the "travel around the moon from the center of the moon.." that would be the diamter...to find the actuall physica distance travled. I was referring to the maneuverability, as you stated, not flat out greasy ass nasty speed. Speed and turning capabilities during a dogfight.

BUT....

I am watching ID4 right now, I dunno, I might have to rethink that.....


Shields? Advantage ID4 fighters.

Firepower? TIE fighters.

Sheer numbers? TIE fighters by FAR.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I was referring to the maneuverability, as you stated, not flat out greasy ass nasty speed. Speed and turning capabilities during a dogfight.

Indeed. Tie Fighters seem to turn on a friggin dime and can fly at rediculously slow speeds, if so desired.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
BUT....

I am watching ID4 right now, I dunno, I might have to rethink that.....


Shields? Advantage ID4 fighters.

Firepower? TIE fighters.

Sheer numbers? TIE fighters by FAR.

Indeed. Those little alien fighters are pretty dern fast and...very manuverable. It's hard for me to decide. I will go with Tie fighters until someone can make a video case for the alien buggers.


Shields...dude...by far...I agree. Tie Fighters are weak. I'm not sure why the basically incinerate when a bolt hits it.


I will have to disagree and say the firepower on the Alien ships is better. They explode on impact much bigger than cannon fire from the ties. However, the Tie Bomber has big ol' bombs. I'm not sure if that is movie cannon, though.

Sheer numbers go to the Empire...by FAAAAAAAR! lol

I say the TIE's have superior firepower because they have rapid fire, penetrating lasers. Sure, they dont make a big ass BOOM when they impact, but the damage and the repetitive fire would work to their advantage.

Another thing we have to consider is that IF the ID4 aliens defeat the Imperial Navy, they will have to send in their ground troops to mop up. So......How will they fare against stormtroopers? Or Vader?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I say the TIE's have superior firepower because they have rapid fire, penetrating lasers. Sure, they dont make a big ass BOOM when they impact, but the damage and the repetitive fire would work to their advantage.

But...what good does that rapid fire do when the alien ships have those uber shields?


Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Another thing we have to consider is that IF the ID4 aliens defeat the Imperial Navy, they will have to send in their ground troops to mop up. So......How will they fare against stormtroopers? Or Vader?


I would say that they would mop the floor with the stormtroopers.

Their biomechincal suits were supposedly supposed to be uber. It had the doc pitching a tent over them..so they must have been pretty advanced.

Also, don't forget about the telepathy capabilities of the aliens. Much much superior to anything seen in the force. One damaged beat up, crash landed alien, who jus underwent crude "surgery" from the humans, took down an entire room of humans with its weird alien "brain scream" thingie.

Who knows what the range on that brain thing is. It worked through glass...so the "psionic" powers work fairly well. It targeted just one human, or could be broadened to everyone in the room.

It took out a room, no, masacred a room of scientists, on its own.


(But will smith punched one in the face and it was lights out.) lol

Originally posted by dadudemon
But...what good does that rapid fire do when the alien ships have those uber shields?





I would say that they would mop the floor with the stormtroopers.

Their biomechincal suits were supposedly supposed to be uber. It had the doc pitching a tent over them..so they must have been pretty advanced.

Also, don't forget about the telepathy capabilities of the aliens. Much much superior to anything seen in the force. One damaged beat up, crash landed alien, who jus underwent crude "surgery" from the humans, took down an entire room of humans with its weird alien "brain scream" thingie.

Who knows what the range on that brain thing is. It worked through glass...so the "psionic" powers work fairly well. It targeted just one human, or could be broadened to everyone in the room.

It took out a room, no, masacred a room of scientists, on its own.


(But will smith punched one in the face and it was lights out.) lol Dude, the Empire will find a way around the shields. Can you imagine the minds that created the Death star? They will make David Levinson look like a retard.

And I am sure a blast from a Blastech E11 assault rifle will shred those biomechanical suits.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Dude, the Empire will find a way around the shields. Can you imagine the minds that created the Death star? They will make David Levinson look like a retard.

And I am sure a blast from a Blastech E11 assault rifle will shred those biomechanical suits.

Oh, no doubt.


I'm of the opinion that those shields will be disabled in no time flat, by the empire minds. Some of the brightest minds in the star wars universe work for the empire, making new technologies for them.


I still think it is a land slide victory for the Empire.


We don't know how long or how much punishment those alien shields can take. We DO know that one of the smartest technology humans on all of planet earth figured out a way to hack and upload a virus on their ship...surely the empire, who has the pickin's from literally trillions of "people" could find someone as capable if not MORE capable than David.


I still have no doubt that it is a landslide victory for the empire.


If it was one death star and many star destroyers with many tie fighters, in equal numbers to the mother ship, mid sized city destroyers, and alien fighters, I'd give it t the aliens..but the sheer numbers are absurdly in favor of the Empire....even if they don't destroy the shielding on the ships. There's no way those shields have infinite protection power. They have to give eventually. A bombardment from 4-5 star destroyers from all angles should be more than enough...even though it would take many many shots to equal a hydrogen bomb...

But each star destroyer has thousands of laser cannons, so it shouldn't take like...more than an hour to equal the power of a hydrogen bomb...maybe even a few minutes?


I'm speculating that there is a giving point.

You had me at hello.

Originally posted by Robtard
Did you factor in the sheer idiocy of the Empire, though? I.E. build a massive doomsday weapon, yet leave it susceptible to being destroyed by a single shot.

Yeah that was covered under Scenario D, so long as Will Smith is delivering the final shot.

The idiocy factor was a very relevant thing to factor in, now you mention it.. I bet that commander who declined to shoot at the escape pod in ep IV was kicking himself for sure....

I bet all his imperial collegues mock him at the office parties about that still to this day.....

But those ID4 guys werent all genuises, Im sure.
I bet they had their equivalents of Simple Jack in their ranks.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth


But those ID4 guys werent all genuises, Im sure.
I bet they had their equivalents of Simple Jack in their ranks.

Very true; I'm willing to bet it was their IT guy, the one who didn't bother putting in a simple virus protection program into their system.

Can build planatoid-sized space vessel: check
Has highly advanced bio suits: check
Ship shielding that can withstand nuclear assault: check
Smaller carrier/attack ships can level a city in a few hours: check
Computer equipment that can counter epically inferior technology:fail

That movie sucked balls, two worse scenes. 1) Will Smith punching out an alien in a bio suit that protected him/her/it from a crash landing 2) Randy Quaid flying into the beam gleeming like a pansy and saying "I'm back."

Originally posted by Robtard
Very true; I'm willing to bet it was their IT guy, the one who didn't bother putting in a simple virus protection program into their system.

Can build planatoid-sized space vessel: check
Has highly advanced bio suits: check
Ship shielding that can withstand nuclear assault: check
Smaller carrier/attack ships can level a city in a few hours: check
Computer equipment that can counter epically inferior technology:fail

That movie sucked balls, two worse scenes. 1) Will Smith punching out an alien in a bio suit that protected him/her/it from a crash landing 2) Randy Quaid flying into the beam gleeming like a pansy and saying "I'm back."

LOLZ Oh man I know what you mean...
I loved the movie right til just after all the mass destruction.
It was looking like the most epic movie in the known universe right up until that point you mention with the Smith banging out the alien.

For then of it degenerated into a brain dead, flag waving cheesefest where all story arcs take a simultaneous and sad "Challenger-post-main-tank-explosion"-like trajectory towards where the fishes slept blissfully unaware of the tonnes of flaming plot, twisted shallow hack writing and smoking wreckage of character development hurtling toward them from miles above..

Did you see the alt. ending to that movie....? Quaid takes out the saucer with the crop duster.

I saw that. Horrifying.

Yeah, when I saw that immediately wanted recite some of his own dialogue back at Roland Emmerich: "In the words of my generation....up yours!!!!!"

I did not and I don't want to know how a crop-duster destroys a highly advanced alien wr ship.

Originally posted by Robtard
I did not and I don't want to know how a crop-duster destroys a highly advanced alien wr ship.

Too bad.


The firing cannon has tons concentrated tons of polarized energy at the collection center on the tip. This helps plasmic energy to discharge through the firing mechanism. This polarized energy is to help direct the plasmic energy in a straight line. However, it is volatile. Destruction of that tip at almost any point will cause a reverse cascade of explosions, through the plasmic discharge network. Since the ships are shielded almost perfectly, it never crossed their mind that there would be a design flaw in that cannon.

And, unlike other shielding technologies, the fighter crafts and the mid sized ships' shields do not "harmonize" meaning that can't phase through each other. And, yes, the alien fighter craft exits are far away from the cannon. They know not to fly anywhere near the cannon when exiting. And when entering, a special automated system phases a specific portion of the shields on the mid sized ship to let them back in. But it is so automated and fast that there's no way anything could get through the hole created in the shields when they go back. If something were to ram the fighter right as it were entering, the hole that is created in the mid sized ship's shield seals around the fighter as it exits, immediately meaning no gap is ever experienced between the fighter's shield and the big ship.





Someone may think "oh, just attached something to the alien ship as it tries to enter so you could have an infiltration. Doesn't work. The shields authenticate with each other through a quantum encryption.

To put it simply, the shields are impenetrable. Nothing gets past them. The only way to get through them is disabling them.

Also, he had a missile strapped to his biplane yeah boyee.

haermm

n8DLM18CeEs&feature=related

I don't understand how anyone can possibly hate Independence Day.

That's the problem with America. We praise bullshit like "There Will be Blood" and "No County for Old Men", but hate on good quality movies like ID4 and Punisher: Warzone?

Ridiculous.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
but hate on good quality movies like ID4 and Punisher: Warzone?



Lul, wat?

Originally posted by Placidity
Lul, wat?

he's black/mexican

I liked Independence day. It had some corny moments, but I thought it was good.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I liked Independence day. It had some corny moments, but I thought it was good.

Me too. Siskel and Ebert gave it a shitty score. They whined about a dog fight in the Grand Canyon being ridiculous because these aliens had super technology and a dog fight was absurd. And I think it is absurd that they assume that an alien species will be far far superior to our technologies in every category compared to humans. They obviously don't know what an anthropomorphism is, much less being guilty of characterizing everything to an anthropomorphic standard...even in a fictional movie about aliens.


I'm quite sure there is some alien species out there that would laugh at how retardedly crude our energy technologies are while our media interfaces are very advanced.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
I don't understand how anyone can possibly hate Independence Day.

That's the problem with America. We praise bullshit like "There Will be Blood" and "No County for Old Men", but hate on good quality movies like ID4 and Punisher: Warzone?

Ridiculous.

You meant that ironically, right?
You cant have meant it seriously, as Im certain you have an IQ of more than five.

Now I've spoke up for ID4's fine points (the beginning, basically) but
"There will be blood" and "No Country" knock ID4 into the bargain bin, where it (comparitively) belongs, man.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
You meant that ironically, right?
You cant have meant it seriously, as Im certain you have an IQ of more than five.

Now I've spoke up for ID4's fine points (the beginning, basically) but
"There will be blood" and "No Country" knock ID4 into the bargain bin, where it (comparitively) belongs, man.

I didn't see "There Will Be Blood."


I did so "No Country for Old Men" and it was satisfying. However, I thought it failed in many places. It felt as though the last 30 minutes or so was done very hastily. In addition, it felt like the writer/direct were trying to hard at metaphor that it created a too much of two "genres" in the movie. I can't articulate what I'm meaning...but, it looks like they messed up the last third of the movie and missed the boat. That may have been the intention all along, and they may have been going somewhere else with the interpretation, but it just fell apart. The story kept building and building. It was utterly fascinating, every moment that Javier did on screen. (I loved just about every moment with him on the screen. It was very fun in a sick kind of way.), but I felt his ending scene with a certain someone didn't play out in dialogue very well and a certain wife's dialogue seemed much to intelligent (meaning, out of character) to fit right. Of course, plenty of time had passed, it appeared, and maybe the writer was trying to convey that this lady had thought long and hard about it beforehand, but it seemed like they were trying to hard while exploring the Sheriff's metaphor.)

Still, I give it a 6 out of 10. I love it when the bad guy wins.

It matches the pace/events of the book apparrently, the Coens were just being authentic, is what I hear.

People dont fit right in life too.
Refreshing to see a non dumb-bi*ch in place of the generic wife/girlfriend in movies, if you ask me, besides I thought it made the end work well.
Her accent work was amazing, see her in "Trainspotting" in her natural accent, to see what I mean.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
It matches the pace/events of the book apparrently, the Coens were just being authentic, is what I hear.

People dont fit right in life too.
Refreshing to see a non dumb-bi*ch in place of the generic wife/girlfriend in movies, if you ask me, besides I thought it made the end work well.
Her accent work was amazing, see her in "Trainspotting" in her natural accent, to see what I mean.


If that's the case, then I bump the movie up to an 8 out of 10. The whole major dilemma with the Sheriff makes much more sense if it was originally a book. That type of stuff works much better in written entertainment, IMO. It can work well in movies, but not all the time.

I was talking about her being a typical "stupid southern redneck wife", and then all of a sudden being an expert police negotiator and superbly executing dialogue with a potential killer. However, like I said, they may have given that to her because she had time to think about it. She even said, "I knew you'd eventually come." I then I lol'd. LOL, but no, really. I thought it was out of character, relative to her previous lines.


I did not like that fact the bad guy got to beat everyone. I really liked that he did win...but come on, they should have let mr. slick pants live. The really really really smart guys shouldn't get offed like that. It's...like a crime or something. lol

Oh I see. Fair play on the dialogue.

Well Chigur didnt beat everyone, the gang killed the main man and got pretty messed up in that car crash too..
The whole film is a study of death and the way it permeates or lives, and how do we react when faced with it...?
Mr.Slick tries fooling it/escaping it, Woody Harrelson tries to reason with it, the wife tells "it up yours" and refuses to play its game and attempts to take control, and Tommy Lee Jones fears it etc and
Chigur is the main allegory for death.

And Slick's death was an example of the unexpectedness and how it sideblinds you in real life.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Punisher: Warzone?


NOOOOOOOOOOOOO -- *Disintegrates.*


The Empire wins 2/1.

Punisher: Warzone is a future classic.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Punisher: Warzone is a future classic.
I certainly loved that part when he walked into the dining room and blew that argumentative a**hole's head off. It was effin' sweet. I was the only one who laughed while clapping at the part. No body has good tastes in death these days.

I liked the scene right before that, where he literally punched in said argumentative *******'s son's face in.

You paid to watch that shit movie though? lol.

Originally posted by Robtard
I liked the scene right before that, where he literally punched in said argumentative *******'s son's face in.

You paid to watch that shit movie though? lol.

Right. He literally punched his face in. People say it...but he actually did it. (In the movie.)

Yeah..it was....a little pathetic. There were great parts about it, but I gave it a 4 out of 10.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
All I am saying is that if a lowly cable TV guy here on Earth can figure out how to lower their shields, surely the Empire has a mind or two that will figure it out also.

And we are forgetting that the Empire has shields too. How will the ID4 fleet destroy the second Death Star, or even a star destroyer? We also dont even know if the ID4 landing craft's shields can survive one or even multiple death star blasts. We see the ID4 ships deflecting weapons from OUR universe, NOT plasma blasts and planet destroying blasts.

Really!? You guys asking if the empire ever develop a weapon to lower shields!!??
Well, the answer is yes. The empire had a weapon able not only to lower enemy's shields but to neutralize entire ships. The only problem is that at that time the Empire was called the Separatists. That was back then at the Clone wars. The name of the weapon was the Malevolence, which actually was a cruiser and General Greivous flag ship.

The malevolence was able to not only to neutralize Venator type ships, but also to make them useless.

So, going back to the question. The Empire would win. If they were able to develop such a weapon in the clone wars (10-30 years before the Empire was formed) I am pretty sure they can make it once again.

Damn, 7 year necro.

Regarding the topic. I've already seen Independence day 2, and I am well informed on the Star Wars story and movies.

Considering what i saw in the movie independence day, and the information I know about Star Wars, I am pretty confidence to say that the Empire would definetly win. Both ships have shield, so this factor cannot be quite used to determine which one would win. But, I know the Empires arsenal, and they got enough firepower to destroy words without even having to invade them. On the other hand, the aliens in ID had to dock their mothership in the world, and destroy their core in order to 'destroy' this, whereas the Empire just needed to shoot a single blast with the death star to erradicate all life on the planet.

In conclusion, the Empire has more probabilities of winning.

One of RJ's better threads.

id4 isnt in the same league as SW. Im assuming your piting ID4 against SW because of the physical size of there ships. iD4 was beat by one planet who was using ancient versions of there own tech while SW literally conquered a galaxy. About shield busting. SW has ion cannon which penetrates shields its a vmcanon weapon on IsD I' s annotated in every book also used in ESB during the hoth evac. sW wins no competition.

It's just like saying the pitiful rebels defeated the empire. Context and the good guys tend to win at the end, this isn't a horror film.