Mace Windu vs Kas'im

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Darth Exodus
They duke it out in front of the ruined Lehon temple, if they fight for too long they get attacked by a rancor or somin'.

1: Saber's only. No offensive Force attacks
2: Force only
3: All-out. All is allowed, except hair pulling and fish hooking.


Is Mace superior to Kas'im in the force? Will this allow for him to pull a Bane. Is Nebaris gone for good?

Only YOU can answer these questions.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
They duke it out in front of the ruined Lehon temple, if they fight for too long they get attacked by a rancor or somin'.

1: Saber's only. No offensive Force attacks
2: Force only
3: All-out. All is allowed, except hair pulling and fish hooking.

I say Mace in all three. Vapaad is completely unknown to Kas'im. Plus that, Mace is faster and most likely a lot stronger than Kas'im physically and in the force.


Did you watch friday's episode? Mace levitated and threw a huge battle tank over a cliff. Then he reduced a squad of droids to scrap with the force, and destroyed another tank by slamming a huge plat form on it.

SIDIOUS 66
BTW, your thread reminds me of the line: "Today on Power Rangers".

Don't ask.

Slash_KMC
Today on Power Rangers:

Bad guy makes new monster. Power Rangers get ass kicked. Power Rangers find monsters weakness. Monster gets big. Power Rangers get big. Monster destroyed.

And if something was a little different then this, it was epic.

I loved that show.

Lord Lucien
Formulaic shows rock. Until they start to suck. Power Rangers always rocked. Until they replaced all the original cast. Then it sucked.

Slash_KMC
It was still good when they changed the three members, it was good to see some fresh faces, plus it took away a lot of the "Omg, that show is so racist" comments.

It started to suck when Rita and Zedd got married. This made me never want to marry.

SIDIOUS 66
I thought Rita and Zedd were the best evil married couple ever.

I loved Power Rangers in Space. It had a Star Wars like theme to it.

Eminence
The end of Lost Galaxy brought back the people from Space, and that's where I stopped paying attention. I recently found out that there was an episode aired a couple of years featuring all the Red Rangers (Jason!!), so I watched it, and it was entertaining.

Power Rangers wins forever.

SIDIOUS 66
Yeah by that time i believe Saban handed Power Rangers over to Disney. I watched the "Red Rangers" episode, and it was good, but they had a hard time keeping up with each seasons story line.

Vorpal Ruin
Could the power rangers beat Mace Windu?

Lord Lucien
Maybe Zach. That's it.

SIDIOUS 66
This should have been it for Power Ranger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3TQ6zdh40E

Kinda like how ROTJ should have been it for Star Wars.

Eminence
On-Topic: Mace WINdu.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Eminence
On-Topic: Mace WINdu.

Zero points for originality.

Eminence
NO

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Eminence
YES

Corrected.

Balmung
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Fixed.

Fixed.

Darth Exodus
Who's Fianna? Sounds like a Tolkien reference.

Balmung
No lol, it's a reference to a far superior mythology.

http://dothack.wikia.com/wiki/.hack
http://dothack.wikia.com/wiki/The_World
http://dothack.wikia.com/wiki/Balmung
http://dothack.wikia.com/wiki/Descendants_of_Fianna

.hack//Sign's the first anime in the series, you should definitely check it out.

Red Nemesis
No such thing. Evar.

Anyway, .hack .sux. Srsly.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Anyway, .hack .sux. Srsly.

wut r u talkin bout

Red Nemesis
"dot hack dot sux. dot seriously."

That's how clever I am: too clever by five eighths.

Slash_KMC
I can't even begin to understand your cleverness.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I say Mace in all three. Vapaad is completely unknown to Kas'im. Plus that, Mace is faster and most likely a lot stronger than Kas'im physically and in the force.


Not exactly. Kas'im was a master of all the Forms, including Juyo. Vaapad is a variation of Juyo created by Mace. It won't be completely alien to Kas'im as he'll recognise some Form 7 in it. He'll be thinking 'his style is like Juyo, but different somehow.'

Anyway, I believe it'll be a very tough battle, but Mace will prevail. Stronger Force power, shatterpoint ability and his own sword skills (at least on par with Kas'im's, or even better) will earn him the win.

Red Nemesis
False. I'll grant that Mace will win on account of Shatterpoint/superior speed, but he is not better than Kas'im.

mattatom
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
False. I'll grant that Mace will win on account of Shatterpoint/superior speed, but he is not better than Kas'im.

Indeed slightly offtopic, since I'm not all that knowledgeable with the Old Sith, is Tulak Hord a better weaponmaster than Kas'im, since I think theirs a quote where it says Kas'im is perhaps the best weaponmaster ever. Or something along those lines.

Oh and Nemesis thanks for the heads up in the PM.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by mattatom
Indeed slightly offtopic, since I'm not all that knowledgeable with the Old Sith, is Tulak Hord a better weaponmaster than Kas'im, since I think theirs a quote where it says Kas'im is perhaps the best weaponmaster ever. Or something along those lines.
That quote would imply that Tulak Hord is not a better weaponmaster than Kas'im. But that might just be me. I mean,

seems to indicate that Kas'im has no rival.


Originally posted by mattatom

Oh and Nemesis thanks for the heads up in the PM.
No problem.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
False. I'll grant that Mace will win on account of Shatterpoint/superior speed, but he is not better than Kas'im.

Okay. How about:

"his own sword skills, almost as good as Kas'im's."

How's that?

Red Nemesis
I'm still not happy but I'll accept it.

mattatom
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Okay. How about:

"his own sword skills, almost as good as Kas'im's."

How's that?

It's a relative almost admittedly.

Lightsnake
Red, that only indicates Kas'im has no rival at that point in time. Mace is a thousand years later

Gideon
You're kidding, right? Red, you disappoint me, especially in light of your superior command of the English language. The fact that the omniscient narrator makes use of the qualifier "maybe" -- that Kas'im is perhaps the greatest swordsman ever -- would indicate to just about anyone with an IQ in single digits that there are clearly other contenders to that title. And even if there weren't the idea "best" does not mean "peerless."

Red Nemesis

Final Blaxican
No.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
No.

And your proof is, what exactly?

If you don't agree that's fair enough, but to just dismiss what they say without even having the decency to provide an explanation or a reason why you disagree is wrong. In fact it's flat-out arrogant.

Allankles
Mace has the feats so I go with him. I'd favour the PT elites like Dooku, Anakin, Maul and Obi Wan to beat Kasim.

Nephthys
Nah, I think that Kas'im's has shown enough to be able to contend with the PT master's. He isn't going to be blitzed like with Bane and his technical skill is disproportionate enough to allow him to beat most of them.

Hewhoknowsall
Mace > Sidious > Bane

Nephthys
Bane>Gravity>Mace.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane>Gravity>Mace.

What?

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Are you cereal? Kas'im memorized every possible combination between the different Forms of lightsaber combat. He completely mastered all of the different techniques, apparently in both the saber staff and dual-saber variants. To say that his skill, if not overall combat efficiency is anything less than exceptional within the saga is some sort of oversight.
I found a reply on this topic from a long time ago. I seem to have not been infected with retard at that point (Faunus still had it so I was safe) and I may or may not have posted it. It still makes sense though so I'll post it again.

Me:
Kas'im vs. Mace Windu.

There is no doubt that these are some of the best lightsaber duelists in the saga. Mace Windu created his own form- ostensibly more deadly than the classical forms and tailor made to his temperament. Kas'im mastered all seven extant forms of lightsaber combat, and memorized every possible combination of those styles to become not only the Brotherhood's lightsaber instructor, but the deadliest duelist of his era.

Kas'im
Force
Kas'im has an abundance of skill, but his force powers are considered weak. This isn't really fair, as the only role we saw him in was one of a saber instructor. He was able to fully defend himself from a TK attack powerful enough to "shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid." (PoD) This same blast was powerful enough to vaporize the temple around him: "The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone". (PoD) Kas'im's defense against this came after he had been all but defeated by Bane in the first half of their duel- He was far from fresh.
Also worth noting that Bane was nowhere near his best and throwing out a quick, desperate, unfocused attack. A focused assault would be something different entirely more than like.

This is speculation based upon a single instance of, again, a single wild attack that left Kas'im unable to escape the temple's ruin and given his speed and reflexes, we can assume he did not weather the attack right there. A focused attack from Mace will be a different story entirely

And Mace is possessed of both. Kas'im's talent in the force is not near others of his era, so rather than improve that, he focused on the saber to even the scales. Mace has no such disadvantage.

He blew open a side chamber. I would expect this of any combatant. Also, he blew off a side door, not a wall

Sabers are not limited to technical ability, where Mace rivals Kas'im. Mace has to be a master of multiple high end forms to master Form VII, his strength and speed are major factors, as well as his force power and he uses a form alien to Ka'sim and one he himself invented. The disparity with sabers is not a great one.

Don't forget a big part of this is Bane's unfamiliarity with Jar'Kai. Nothing Kas'im wields can come as a total surprise to Mace, leaving it as skill against skill.




Yes, he is the best swordsman alive at the time. The problem is, this IS Bane's POV speaking as it is mentioned right after 'Bane knew he could not win.' Moreover, this is a statement given directly to the point in time and just like Marka Ragnos being the most powerful of the powerful, it does not apply to the future.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Mace > Sidious > Bane

Sorry! I forgot: it's:

Mace > Sidious > Bane > Kas'im

Nephthys
How did Mace die?

EDIT: Speaking of which: AIDS. That is all.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Sorry! I forgot: it's:

Mace > Sidious > Bane > Kas'im

Originally posted by Nephthys
How did Mace die?

EDIT: Speaking of which: AIDS. That is all.

Ohhh....

Nephthys
jokawer See, it's all part of the plan.

Balmung
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Also worth noting that Bane was nowhere near his best and throwing out a quick, desperate, unfocused attack.

Quick? It's explicitly stated that he had been gathering energies for that very attack during Kas'im's speech, to such an extent that it left him drained directly afterwards. It's also worth noting that Kas'im was caught completely off guard by that attack, and was forced to conjure up a rushed defence at "the last possible instant."



From Bane, yes. Mace hasn't demonstrated anything that would suggest he's even approaching Bane in Force Power, even at that point in time. What you're essentially saying is that if Character A can produce such an effect under poor circumstances, it's more than likely that Character B can automatically produce a greater effect under better circumstances, which is flawed.



A ridiculous assumption. This isn't even implied in the novel.



Kas'im mastered all seven forms for all three major variations of the lightsabers (which by extension would include high end mastery in multiple forms (and likely all if Kas'im were to have progressed consistently with each form before beginning his Juyo training)) in less than ten years (as the context makes clear), and then went on to perfect his skills for decades. Mace doesn't even come close, can't be said to have any real familiarity with a lot of what Kas'im can bring to the table (such as the saber staff as a weapon itself, let alone all 7 forms under it), and from a technical standpoint, has Vaapad ever been stated to actually be different from Juyo? At best it's a technical improvement, making the form only partially alien to Kas'im.



Show me where Mace is shown to possess familiarity with all seven forms for all three major variations of lightsaber combat. What was that? You can't? Oh yeah, that's right, so you're not in a position to claim that Kas'im wouldn't be able to catch Mace off guard with the techniques at his disposal. Which by all available evidence, he can, given the sheer scale of what Kas'im has at his disposal, and the lack thereof of what Mace can be proven or suggested to be familiar with.



Which Mace loses in miserably.



Again, no it isn't. The entire passage deals with information of a very intimate and detailed nature that Bane isn't in a position to know about. That it's said "Bane knew he could not win" wouldn't necessarily mean that it's coming indirectly from Bane (as the ON is in a position to speak directly about a character's feelings, realisations, perceptions etc...), and as I've established, the specific details in question that the paragraph goes over would make it an impossibility that the passage was coming indirectly from Bane.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Also worth noting that Bane was nowhere near his best and throwing out a quick, desperate, unfocused attack. A focused assault would be something different entirely more than like.
I hate to do it, but I'm going to use the source you gave me against you:


It was prepared. You can't argue that he was unfocused.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

This is speculation based upon a single instance of, again, a single wild attack that left Kas'im unable to escape the temple's ruin and given his speed and reflexes, we can assume he did not weather the attack right there. A focused attack from Mace will be a different story entirely
I'm not sure that it is. Kas'im is confirmed, by the omniscient narrator to have withstood Bane's attack. He was not harmed by the force that had the potential to 'shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid.' The blast was also enough to destroy the temple. That is how strong Kas'im's defenses are. We have a baseline against which to compare him: if Mace is capable of exerting more force (or Force) than that he can win by Force strength alone. But Mace can't do it. Thus, the contest will be determined by the characters' physical powers rather than their external application of the Force.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

And Mace is possessed of both. Kas'im's talent in the force is not near others of his era, so rather than improve that, he focused on the saber to even the scales. Mace has no such disadvantage.
Skill: Kas'im has Mace beat. While I'm not going to deny that Mace is an exceptional fighter, he does not have access the level of technical skill that Kas'im lays claim to.
Power: Mace has the advantage. I can't dispute that. But Kas'im's assertion is that skill can overcome power. Kas'im's absolute mastery over the lightsaber in all its forms indicates that his skill should be able to compensate for even this level of power disparity.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

He blew open a side chamber. I would expect this of any combatant. Also, he blew off a side door, not a wall
Right you are: "Recognizing what was happening, Kas'im blew open the heavy door of a side room with the Force and dived inside."

So anyway, the point is that he is not incapable of using the Force. He appears to be average. While one should not hope to compete with Mace Windu while being 'average' in anything, the areas he excels in are specified to be sufficient to make up for his deficiencies.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Sabers are not limited to technical ability, where Mace rivals Kas'im. Mace has to be a master of multiple high end forms to master Form VII, his strength and speed are major factors, as well as his force power and he uses a form alien to Ka'sim and one he himself invented. The disparity with sabers is not a great one.
I'm sorry, this seems off. Nowhere is it said that Juyo/Vapaad needs mastery of every form, just 'many' forms. Kas'im knows all combinations of every form. All > several. High end mastery of multiple < Total mastery of all.

If this doesn't make sense I'll try again, but Mace's accolades simply don't sound as good to me.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Don't forget a big part of this is Bane's unfamiliarity with Jar'Kai. Nothing Kas'im wields can come as a total surprise to Mace, leaving it as skill against skill.
Kas'im was at least as fast as Bane, who had previously eclipsed him in skill and speed. Bane's capabilities are nothing to scoff at. Kas'im had overcome his enemy's superior Force abilities with his technical skill.

In a fight with Windu this will manifest itself as stunning swordplay that compensates for Mace's superior speed. As Kas'im does not draw on the Force in the same manner as Sidious the SL will not apply. Mace will be fighting an enemy capable of outdueling him that he cannot overwhelm with speed or Force strength. It is a bad combination for Mace. None of his unique advantages apply here.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Yes, he is the best swordsman alive at the time. The problem is, this IS Bane's POV speaking as it is mentioned right after 'Bane knew he could not win.' Moreover, this is a statement given directly to the point in time and just like Marka Ragnos being the most powerful of the powerful, it does not apply to the future.
The term 'ever' sets this accolade apart from Marka Ragnos's (is that apostrophe right?) in several ways.

First, the material.
Amazon has this quote:

Compare it with the Kas'im quote:

The two passages are used for similar purposes but are executed very differently. The first one uses 'most powerful of the most powerful' to describe the term 'Dark Lord of the Sith'. The out of universe portion is only being used as an adjective phrase to modify the noun phrase 'DLotS'.

Kas'im's quote is very different. The ON is describing Bane's thoughts (he knew he couldn't win) and explaining them. In doing so, he goes beyond what Bane could hope to know- namely, Kas'im's life goal and relative skill level. Having Bane call Kas'im the 'greatest swordsman in the Galaxy' is silly- he is in no position to make that judgment. So it is OOU material.

Next, the lifespan of the accolade. 'He had become the Greatest swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever.' Note the use of definite language for 'best in the galaxy' while the more audacious claim is only a speculation. 'Ever' is an indefinite timeperiod but it does not exclude the future- I wouldn't say "the battle of Helm's Deep was the most bloody battle ever in history" when I knew (as an omniscient narrator) that the Pelennor Fields was yet to occur. I wouldn't say 'I am the (brother of the) best Super Smash Brothers player ever' without meaning future too. 'Ever' carries an vagueness that implies a future duration too.

Gideon
You are slowly losing my faith in you, Nebaris. Vaapad is a higher extention of Juyo that earned its own entry in the Essential Guide to the Force, due to the mentality and discipline required. They aren't the same thing, since Windu invented Vaapad. You can't invent something that is already created and in constant use. Do not imply that they are the same thing; Vaapad is, by all accounts, more deadly than any form Kas'im can bring to the table. It is incontrovertible. Moreover, given that Mace is a "high end master of multiple forms", you will need to provide proof that he's automatically unfamiliar with Kas'im's ability.

Gideon
Is it your testimony that claims cannot be made in narrative unless it is absolute fact or the characters are in positions to know it for certain?

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Gideon
Is it your testimony that claims cannot be made in narrative unless it is absolute fact or the characters are in positions to know it for certain?

I think that in this case, where the details of the alleged in-character supposition are so exact and so assertive that it is foolish to write the passage off as in-universe, fallible belief without some evidence that suggests inaccuracy.

The passage has an intimate knowledge of Kas'im's life and capabilities that exceeds that which we can reasonably assume Bane had. The tone of authority suggests a narrator, not a window into the character's thoughts.

(I would not 'testify' that characters cannot simply be wrong, but this case doesn't sound like a character at all.)

Gideon
Hey, I'm not judging you or condemning you. I think it's a bullshit idea, but if you can make a credible argument, I get to use Vader's belief that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever. Either way, I win.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Gideon
Hey, I'm not judging you or condemning you. I think it's a bullshit idea, but if you can make a credible argument, I get to use Vader's belief that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever. Either way, I win.

Except that this isn't Bane's idea. It is the narrator expounding on why 'within a few passes, Bane knew he couldn't win.' That was his internal thought, but the rest is the ON explaining it. The part in question =/= Vader's musings on Palpatine.

(Do you really need that quote though?)

Gideon
I'm referring strictly to the statement that Kas'im is the greatest swordsman ever. I'm siding with LS on this one. It's a dubious claim, but no matter the outcome, I win.

Balmung
...

Originally posted by Gideon
You are slowly losing my faith in you, Nebaris.

no expression



As I thought was pretty obvious, I was speaking purely from a technical perspective when I said that. In sheer swordplay, has Vaapad ever been documented to even be different than Juyo?



From a technical standpoint, it hasn't even been proven that Mace's Vaapad is at all different to Kas'im's Juyo.

Not to mention this is largely irrelevant given that Kas'im doesn't rely on any one particular form, but rather, all of them. Having what is clearly high end mastery of all seven forms for all three major variations of the lightsaber easily makes Kas'im the more effective, and deadlier swordsman of the two. By all accounts, it isn't even close.



1. Lightsnake was the one to make the claim that Kas'im, undeniably speaking, can't surprise Mace with anything. I was asking him to provide proof for the claim. No such proof required on my part, as I did not claim that Mace would undeniably be unfamiliar with anything at Kas'im's disposal.

2. What I will say now, and what I have said on other threads, is that Mace cannot be proven to be familiar with everything at Kas'im's disposal. Given the nature of these versus threads, where we use all available evidence to form the most logical conclusion, that Mace cannot be proven to be familiar with a lot of what Kas'im has at his disposal, or even logically suggested to be, it's more likely than not that he would be largely unfamiliar with a lot of what Kas'im has at his disposal, and it's more likely than not that Kas'im would be fully capable of surprising him with a lot of what he can bring to the table.

Gideon
Originally posted by Balmung
...


no expression

Jesus, that was the perfect opportunity for you to use the "lack of faith" line from ANH. Get your head in the game!



Possibly. The Complete Encyclopedia says that users of Vaapad opened themselves to the Force so fully that they drew power from both the light and dark side, which could definitely alter, augment, and change overall ability.



It is considered an extension, an improvement. Are extensions and improvements identical to that which they originate?



And you have some conclusive proof suggesting that Windu is completely unfamiliar with all of this? I find that unlikely.



Fantastic.



Except that we know for certain that Kas'im is not familiar with Vaapad. There's something he can surprise Kas'im with.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Red Nemesis

I hate to do it, but I'm going to use the source you gave me against you:


It was prepared. You can't argue that he was unfocused.


I'm not sure that it is. Kas'im is confirmed, by the omniscient narrator to have withstood Bane's attack. He was not harmed by the force that had the potential to 'shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid.' The blast was also enough to destroy the temple. That is how strong Kas'im's defenses are. We have a baseline against which to compare him: if Mace is capable of exerting more force (or Force) than that he can win by Force strength alone. But Mace can't do it. Thus, the contest will be determined by the characters' physical powers rather than their external application of the Force.
You misunderstand. Kas'im's speech is rather brief, Bane is drained and damaged. He withstood the attack, yes. The problem here is twofold:
1. Bane had time to gather energy and throw it out in a force wave. This is NOT a focused attack. If Bane had chosen to lash out, fully on Kas'im, to tear through any shield he threw up, could Kas'im have withstood that?
2. Bane, a much stronger Bane, in rule of Two, throws out a force wave and a random Shadow Assassin is able to withstand it.


Several problems here as well:
1. Mace is well versed in each form of the lightsaber. Though he is not a master of all forms, his experience and abilities are simply exceptional. He will know, intimately, most any form Kas'im can use.
2. Mace has a form that Kas'im has no knowledge of or ccess to. This levels the playing field substantially. Not only that, but from what's been demonstrated, Mace's raw speed and power in a fight are superior to Kas'im's and his speed is comparable.



Skill only overcomes power if you can beat the other guy in a saber duel and when he knew every move Kas'im came with, Bane's dark side power was dominating the fight. The problem is that Mace is comparable to Kas'im in saber skill, being the undisputed master of a completely Form VII, which will require other forms as well, with the addition of familiarity in all 7 forms


Nobody ever said he was incapable of it, however. Just that it's not his forte. The problem is Mace is exceptional in most areas. Kas'im's skill with a saber cannot hope to utterly overwhelm and crush Mace by any means. He's facing an opponent of, I reiterate, incredible saber skill with a form that is perhaps the worst thing for Kas'im to face

Read what I wrote again, Red. 'Multiple' forms, not all. And Kas'im's knowledge is lacking in one specific case: Vaapad. Mace, though he does not use them, has encountered, trained with and seen just about any form Kas'im can use. Kas'im's mastery is not going to give him the undeniable edge here when you have an opponent familiar with all of them. Bane is a perfect example: he did not have full mastery of anything besides Djem So.

Mace, a master of multiple high end forms, a master and inventor of a form alien to Kas'im, who has encountered and battled every one of the other forms?

And his lakc of knowledge of Jar'Kai. Bane was beating him earlier due to force power and knowledge of everything Kas'im was using.

Are you joking? Why, exactly, is Mace's mastery of multiple forms and his familiarity with the others being ignored. One cannot be a combat veteran as Mace is, devoted to improving his saber skills

Can Kas'im beat Bane in pure saber combat Sure. But don't make it sound like Mace is just going to lose. He's more powerful, faster, stronger and nothing Kas'im uses can surprise him. Mace has fought all the forms Kas'im uses, he's mastered many of them, he's completed one to an extent Kas'im does not know. He is is pulling out a new style of fighting that Kas'im is badly inadequate against. He has his Shatterpoint ability as well, and don't tell me for a second that's just irrelevant here. Mace, I'll reiterate, has had experience with every form and has spent decades honing his skills.



Red, also note the end of the statement: Bane knew he couldn't win. This is not a quote that applies to any further portion of galactic history, it is stated only in the context of the timeframe, just the same as if, say,
Nevermind the 'perhaps' makes this academic. We know Kas'im is one of the best swordsmen ever, but so are Mace, Yoda and Dooku.

As that the omniscient narrator in this context can easily be Bane, Red. This isn't a point I truly plan to spend much effort on. You can easily say this is Bane realizing just WHY he can't win. He knows from what he's seen of Kas'im he's the best in the galaxy, and has enough info to know he could very well be the best ever.

The issue here is you're assuming this omniscient narrator quote applies anywhere else but the context of the book and its timeframe and I see no reason why this should be. The 'ever' here doesn't seem it should be a single year after this. I'm unsure why this will preclude any other from growing stronger. The 'now he is dead' from Ragnos applies the same: It is meant in that context, but still says what it says and the previous people of the board used to use that just so to preclude anything after.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Balmung
...



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As I thought was pretty obvious, I was speaking purely from a technical perspective when I said that. In sheer swordplay, has Vaapad ever been documented to even be different than Juyo?

As inane as saying 'has Shien ever been proven to be different than Djem So' or 'has Jar'Kai ever been proven to be different than Ataro/Niman?' And when Grievous tries to replicate Vaapad against Mace in LoE, Mace notes he cannot replicate it fully. As Grievous is fully capable of using Juyo?


False

Foolish thinking. Similar to assuming a Magnaguard, programmed with all seven forms of saber combat are deadlier combatants than Dooku, a Makashi master. part of swordsmanship is flexibility, speed and power. Mace has clearly high end mastery of multiple forms. However, he's well versed in all of them, this is not disputable. He's faced many of them in combat, he's trained against numerous forms...If there anything Kas'im has that can surprise or outmatch him? Mace is physically stronger. He is faster, he's more powerful in the force, he uses an alien technique and has the shatterpoint besides.
By all accounts, this is your PoD love overriding all logic.



Explained already. Accept it or weasel out of it as you see fit

Foolish thinking.
Mace has mastered Juyo to a higher degree, one form down. Niman is useless in combat and every Jedi of the time was familiar in it, two down. Mace was a master of multiple high end forms...he was a constant sparring partner of men like Agen Kolar and Dooku when he was a Jedi, he was well versed in the workings of Soresu...that's Forms V, II and III down. He knew how Ataro worked it goes without saying...
Mace is very, very familiar with how the forms work. What does that leave Kas'im with? Jar'Kai? Something Mace has fought several times to great efficiency?

Being a master of every form will not give you a definite advantage when a man is facing you with familiarity with all seven classic forms. Kas'im has not mastered Form VII to a greater degree than Mace, it should go without saying, and Mace's style is unfamiliar to him.

Feel free to go on with the same antics we expect from you.

Dr McBeefington
Good lord. What does Mace have on Kas'im? Vaapad and Shatterpoint which would arguably give him a victory, if at the very best, they were equals. Kas'im is undoubtedly more technically skilled than Mace and I don't see how that can be disputed.

Lightsnake
Well, DS, if you went and read a little of the thread, maybe you'd see.
What does he have on Kas'im? Strength. Speed. Power. Experience. Unfamiliar form. Shatterpoint. Familiarity with all the forms Kas'im uses...

Better question is what does Kas'im have on Mace? Mastery of forms is great and all, but overall skill with what you have is what matters or else Dooku would be just stomped by Cin Drallig and Anoon Bondara should've walked over Maul.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, DS, if you went and read a little of the thread, maybe you'd see.
What does he have on Kas'im? Strength. Speed. Power. Experience. Unfamiliar form. Shatterpoint. Familiarity with all the forms Kas'im uses...
Familiarity with all of Kas'im's forms=/= mastery of them, which Kas'im has. Speed? Maybe. Experience? VERY unlikely. Like I said, he has shatterpoint and Vaapad which could be enough to win for him. However, they seem to work when he is only on par with his combatant. What happens when they are superior to him?



Overall technical skill is what he has on Mace. Mastery of all the forms, and familiarity with Juyo.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Familiarity with all of Kas'im's forms=/= mastery of them, which Kas'im has. Speed? Maybe. Experience? VERY unlikely. Like I said, he has shatterpoint and Vaapad which could be enough to win for him. However, they seem to work when he is only on par with his combatant. What happens when they are superior to him?
Yeah, guess what? Bane didn't have mastery of any form by Djem So when they thought. Familiarity with the forms is familiarity how to fight them. You know the movies, the styles, the techniques, the angles....if this was the case, Mace would be easily dispatched by Dooku.

Given he's faster, stronger, more powerful and on part with Kas'im with saber skills? Is there anything anyone can bring to the table on Kas'im minus how he's a master of all seven classical saber forms plus Jar'Kai? By this logic, the magna guards and General Grievous should be unstoppable. Why, exactly, does this guarantee him a win over someone who's incredible skill with his own chosen form has easily been shown to be amongst the best in the saga? Kas'im can clearly use what he has. But so can Mace and from the feats of power and skill Mace has displayed, with sabers, he can more than hold his own with Kas'im. He can very well kill him. Especially considering how he was able to match Darth "Turned three of the greatest Jedi duelists ever into corpses in moments" Sidious in saber combat. Kas'im being built from one of the best duelists in the saga to a peerless one is just getting remarkably sad. In Star Wars, one's skills are not defined by the amount of forms they've mastered, but the actually skill they can fight with. Dooku never bothers with anything but Makashi...he is, however, very good with Makashi, more than good enough to take any other swordsman no matter how many forms they know
Mace is a master of multiple high end forms, he has to be to even use Juyo as it is. He was older than Kas'im, he'd been in numerous conflicts, he trained just very hard and had more time to do so. As an all around combatant? Mace is superior.


Whereas Mace has mastery of enough to render that moot, enough experience with all of them to make it moot and a style that is different from Juyo.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, guess what? Bane didn't have mastery of any form by Djem So when they thought. Familiarity with the forms is familiarity how to fight them. You know the movies, the styles, the techniques, the angles....if this was the case, Mace would be easily dispatched by Dooku.
Bane didn't have mastery of any form but had mastery over the force and was a lot more powerful than Kas'im in that regard. And remember how in the book it said someone with more force abilities could defeat someone with better saber abilities.


Prove that he's faster, stronger, and more powerful than Kas'im. Just saying it doesn't make it true. And the magna guards didn't master any of the forms. You could say that the closet to mastering all the forms was Yoda and look how good he was. See? Logic follows my points too. Nobody claimed Kas'im's mastery would guarantee him a victory. Nor would shatterpoint and Vaapad guarantee Mace a victory. Again, your animosity towards anything other than the PT is obvious. Kas'im's abilities are expressed by the omniscient character. Here's where you start using double standards. Mace is superior? Prove it.


Prove Mace has mastery over any form other than Vaapad? His mastery of that form is moot as well when you consider Kas'im's overall mastery.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Bane didn't have mastery of any form but had mastery over the force and was a lot more powerful than Kas'im in that regard. And remember how in the book it said someone with more force abilities could defeat someone with better saber abilities.
Given Mace's force abilities eclipse Kas'im's, that's not a plus for the blademaster


The Magnaguards were programmed with mastery of all seven saber forms according to Labyrinth of Evil.
Mace is superior, and guess what? I've given my case for it. You've yet to refute it except a thing save for your shrill squeals.
Faster? Mace who looked like he was wielding dozens of sabers at once? Mace who punched someone six times before he could even complete a blink? Stronger? Mace punches through solid durasteel. Your turn.
More powerful in the force...does this need elaboration?
Oh, and when did it say Yoda mastered all the forms? The only one he used in battle was Ataru. Like Mace, he had knowledge and experience with them. How does mastery really help when your opponent is well aware of how to fight each form?

Yeah, having mastery of a form that Kas'im has no knowledge of and will be utterly surprising is moot because DS says so...and Juyo requires high end mastery of multiple forms, or are we just not thinking much today?
Pardon, I forgot you just don't think much any day.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Given Mace's force abilities eclipse Kas'im's, that's not a plus for the blademaster
based on?


The Magnaguards were programmed with mastery of all seven saber forms according to Labyrinth of Evil.
Mace is superior, and guess what? I've given my case for it. You've yet to refute it except a thing save for your shrill squeals.
Faster? Mace who looked like he was wielding dozens of sabers at once? Mace who punched someone six times before he could even complete a blink? Stronger? Mace punches through solid durasteel.
Show me the quote where the magnaguards were programmed with "mastery" of all 7 forms. Please. You haven't given any argument for Mace except "Mace is superior, prove otherwise", as well as your consistent bitching that you're very well known for. Mace punches through dursteel?! OH MY! Kas'im has force shields against ridiculous force waves. Looks like I win.

Again, your argument rests on you claiming he's more powerful, not proving anything.

Well aware? Being aware of all 7 forms doesn't in any way imply that you can fight a master of all 7 forms. This is typical LS PT bias.


Translation: I have no argument except that PT is better than all other forms, but I'll continue my usual bitching until DS stops. I like to use double standards because it helps my argument and helps me sleep at night.


So mastery over Vaapad isn't a moot point but mastery over 7 forms including Jar'kai versus someone who is just "familiar" with them IS a moot point? Double standards for dummies. You're a hilarious kid.

Red Nemesis
False:



You got it backwards. That quote helps Kas'im.

Gideon

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon


Thanks escape, I have the book and the quote as well. LS claimed that the robots had mastery of all 7 forms, which is clearly untrue.


@Red Nemesis

My mistake, I had it backwards, confirmed with the book now, thanks.

Gideon
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Thanks escape, I have the book and the quote as well. LS claimed that the robots had mastery of all 7 forms, which is clearly untrue.

How is it untrue?

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
How is it untrue?

Show me where in that statement there is ANY indication that they were programmed with MASTERY of all 7 forms, rather than learning them? You must seriously have logical deduction skills that are beyond mine if that is what you got out of that statement.

Gideon
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Show me where in that statement there is ANY indication that they were programmed with MASTERY of all 7 forms, rather than learning them? You must seriously have logical deduction skills that are beyond mine if that is what you got out of that statement.

And what exactly do you believe their level of proficiency is?

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
And what exactly do you believe their level of proficiency is?

My belief is completely irrelevant to this debate. However, there is absolutely NO evidence of any kind suggesting that they mastered the 7 forms of combat. At least not from that quote alone. You'll have to do better than that Escape.

Gideon
One may wonder how a manufactured droid (lacking the advantages afforded by the Force) would be "more than a match for most Jedi Knights" during a time when the Order was at its prime unless they were extremely proficient with lightsaber combat. Masters? Perhaps not. Novices? Hardly.

Edit: By the way, Vaapad does require its users to be "high end masters of multiple forms." LS has you there.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
One may wonder how a manufactured droid (lacking the advantages afforded by the Force) would be "more than a match for most Jedi Knights" during a time when the Order was at its prime unless they were extremely proficient with lightsaber combat. Masters? Perhaps not. Novices? Hardly.

Why must you go to the other end of the spectrum because I mentioned no such thing? I simply stated that there is NO evidence they mastered all 7 forms, and I stand by that. We can debate their alleged level of proficiency all day long but my point stands.

Gideon
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Why must you go to the other end of the spectrum because I mentioned no such thing? I simply stated that there is NO evidence they mastered all 7 forms, and I stand by that. We can debate their alleged level of proficiency all day long but my point stands.

No, it doesn't.

Lightsnake's point was that impressive technical mastery doesn't make someone a truly phenomenal opponent in the grand scheme of things, and he's correct. Magnaguards wage war against the Jedi with a colossal disadvantage: they lack attunement to the Force. So, unlike the Jedi, they cannot draw upon the limitless energy used to augment their own skill, strength, and offensive power. They cannot use the Force to crush their adversaries' chests or hurl them across battlefields. They cannot indulge in precognition in order to ascertain a solution or an outcome to a complication during a fight. They rely on sheer skill alone. Despite that, their "programming" in the Jedi arts allowed them to be "more than a match for most Jedi Knights."

That suggests an unbelievable proficiency in lightsaber combat that may or may not verge on mastery. Despite this, we have a handful of Force users who have made short work of them.

Anoon Bondara has accolades from here to high heaven, regarded as the foremost battlemaster and the most skilled swordsmen alive (moreso than Yoda, Windu, Dooku, et al). And yet he was outclassed and butchered by Darth Maul. Cin Drallig was also an extremely accomplished duelist and was lazily defeated by Vader, who was dividing his attention between Drallig and another student.

The bottom line is that Kas'im's "technical mastery" is all well and good but does not grant him superiority as a combatant.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it really does. We're not arguing the overall scope of the argument, but rather that one passage. I'll address your other points out of respect but this isn't what I'm arguing with you. I'm arguing just the quote and to interpret it the way you have, is a stretch.


Impressive technical mastery is no guarantee, you're right. When did I debate this? However Kas'im had the advantage of being a phenomenal opponent, if we are to go with the omniscient character's choice of words.



Absolutely, I agree. Nor did I argue against this. But at the same time, Mace's Vaapad and shatterpoint do NOT guarantee superiority over Kas'im, as well.

Final Blaxican
Does the quote about the magnaguaurds being "more than match for most Jedi knights" only apply to Greivous' MG's?

Because, Ashouka wrecked three at once by herself... which means she's either extremely skilled and capable at dueling, perhaps a prodigy... or MG's are just overrated.

At the time that Ashouka fought them, she had just been promoted to padawan level a few days before hand. That means she basically had only youngling level experience in fighting.

Gideon
Lightsnake's argument is that Mace Windu has demonstrated a greater command and strength in the Force than Kas'im, is much more powerful physically, and possesses enough familiarity and a high end mastery of multiple forms that will enable him to not get steamrolled by his opponent. It's a valid point. Bane didn't master a single form at this point according to you all and was familiar enough with Kas'im's work and technique that he was winning the fight. How the hell is it going to be any different for Windu?

Gideon
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Does the quote about the magnaguaurds being "more than match for most Jedi knights" only apply to Greivous' MG's?

No idea.



Suspension of disbelief. We can't ignore valid canon statements simply because we don't like them; stormtroopers are regarded as ridiculously trained, fearless, and loyal to the point of brainwashed, yet we see them defeated with laughable ease, run away, and betray the Empire more than once. Does it disregard the blanket statement entirely? No.

But the Encyclopedia does say this about Ahsoka:

"A devoted student of the Jedi ways, Ahsoka was a talented swordswoman, a budding tactition, and a critical thinker." It suggests she is an enormously gifted combatant despite her rank.

Nephthys
Bane's quite a lot stronger in the force then Mace, which was why he was able to be winning against Kas'im.

Gideon
Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane's quite a lot stronger in the force then Mace, which was why he was able to be winning against Kas'im.

Perhaps.

But that wasn't all that was attributed for Bane's success, was it? His familiarity with Kas'im's technique helped considerably. If it were just sheer strength in the Force, Kas'im busting out the Jar'kai wouldn't have made a difference.

Nephthys
mmm Point.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
Lightsnake's argument is that Mace Windu has demonstrated a greater command and strength in the Force than Kas'im, is much more powerful physically, and possesses enough familiarity and a high end mastery of multiple forms that will enable him to not get steamrolled by his opponent. It's a valid point. Bane didn't master a single form at this point according to you all and was familiar enough with Kas'im's work and technique that he was winning the fight. How the hell is it going to be any different for Windu?

Who claimed Mace was going to get steamrolled? Seriously.

Bane might not have mastered any form but he knew Kas'im's forms and attacks inside and out, like Anakin and Obiwan. When he saw a form he wasn't familiar with, he got curbstomped. Mace might be familiar with the 7 forms but there's no indication that he had mastery of any of them other than Vaapad.

Kas'im mastered them all. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Vaapad a variation of Juyo?

Final Blaxican
Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane's quite a lot stronger in the force then Mace, which was why he was able to be winning against Kas'im.

How? He used one desperate attack at the very end to win. And that one attack is not even comparable to Mace's top stuff.

Caving in a hallway of a temple that is over hundreds of years old is |=| literally stopping an avalanche of boulders from crushing you, WHILE keeping a giant tractor filled with people from tumbling over a cliff.



I suppose.

But, as you know about me by now, I personally take what's done in the series as superior canon to the quotes.

Dr McBeefington
Lets not debate Bane's force abilities with Mace, because Bane is clearly above Mace in that category.

Gideon
Originally posted by Nephthys
mmm Point.

Young fool. Only the now, at the end, do you understand...



Nebaris.



...And could respond in kind despite not being a master of any form. The bond and familiarity between Skywalker and Kenobi is a completely separate entity. And both were masters of lightsaber forms. Somehow, I don't think it was Bane's intimate knowledge of Kas'im that saved his ass, especially if he didn't master a lightsaber form at that point.



Bingo. Bane, who didn't master a form, was curbstomped only when confronted with something he wasn't familiar with. Meaning, up until that point, he was acquitting himself quite well. Mace is a master of multiple forms. Do the math here, DS.



Except that Vaapad requires its users to be high end masters of multiple forms, as you have been told for the millionth time.



It is an improvement.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon

...And could respond in kind despite not being a master of any form. The bond and familiarity between Skywalker and Kenobi is a completely separate entity. And both were masters of lightsaber forms. Somehow, I don't think it was Bane's intimate knowledge of Kas'im that saved his ass, especially if he didn't master a lightsaber form at that point.
His connection to the force.




So you're claiming Mace has mastered all 7 forms, including Jar'Kai? Show me proof escape. And according to the book, "Bane gave himself completely to the darkside", in order to be faster than Kas'im.




Ok, which forms? All 7? So if Mace is a master of 2 forms, Kas'im has the other 5. 3 or 4, 4 or 3, etc. This is no guarantee to anything.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Lets not debate Bane's force abilities with Mace, because Bane is clearly above Mace in that category.

I'd say they were pretty close.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'd say they were pretty close.

I wouldn't.

Nephthys
fffuuu < The pain understanding Gideon's greatness/mental illness.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I wouldn't.

I would. Mace has done just as much impressive things with the force.

Gideon
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
His connection to the force.

That was a factor. But unless you're telling me that that using two lightsabers somehow drains the Force from your opponent, it's not the only reason. The bottom line is that Darth Bane, master of no form, was familiar enough with the various lightsaber forms to dominate Kas'im on even ground.

Meanwhile, Mace Windu also possesses a stronger connection to the Force than Kas'im and is a "high end master of multiple forms" and the absolute master of the deadliest one of all. On paper, Mace would do much better against Kas'im than Bane.



Don't be dense. I said that logically, Mace possesses more advantages against Kas'im than Bane did.



Yes, and Windu opened himself up to the Force enough to match the great Darth Sidious in speed. Am I supposed to be impressed?



I'll provide you the three entries to Juyo, Vaapad, and Form VII.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I would. Mace has done just as much impressive things with the force.

Congrats. That means he's not a neophyte. He'd get curbstomped in a force battle with Bane.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
That was a factor. But unless you're telling me that that using two lightsabers somehow drains the Force from your opponent, it's not the only reason. The bottom line is that Darth Bane, master of no form, was familiar enough with the various lightsaber forms to dominate Kas'im on even ground.

Meanwhile, Mace Windu also possesses a stronger connection to the Force than Kas'im and is a "high end master of multiple forms" and the absolute master of the deadliest one of all. On paper, Mace would do much better against Kas'im than Bane.



Don't be dense. I said that logically, Mace possesses more advantages against Kas'im than Bane did.



Yes, and Windu opened himself up to the Force enough to match the great Darth Sidious in speed. Am I supposed to be impressed?



I'll provide you the three entries to Juyo, Vaapad, and Form VII.

What is your overall point? We agree that Mace wouldn't get curbstomped. I'm sure we also agree that neither will Kas'im. I agree that Mace would logically fair better against Kas'im, but his knowledge of multiple forms don't guarantee him a victory. Neither does Vaapad or Shatterpoint. His shot is considerably better than Bane's.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Congrats. That means he's not a neophyte. He'd get curbstomped in a force battle with Bane.

No not curbstomped.... Not curbstomped by far.

Gideon
Vaapad:

"A style of lightsaber combat developed by Mace Windu, with the assistance of Sora Bulq, prior to the Clone Wars. Derived from the Juyo discipline, Vaapad was an aggressive collection of maneuvers considered to be part of Form VII. As such, Vaapad was considered extremely close to the dark side of the Force and was forbidden to all but the most skilled Jedi Masters. To Master Windu and his apprentice, Depa Billaba, Vaapad was more than a combat style; it was a state of mind in which fighters opened themselves so fully to the Force that they drew power from both the light and dark sides. The style was named for the multi-tentacled vaapad creature found on Sarapin."

-- the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, P-Z, page 288.

Form VII:

"Known as Juyo or Vaapad, this lightsaber combat was one of the most demanding of all the forms developed by the Jedi Knights. Only through the learning of several other forms could a Jedi begin to understand Form VII, which involved so much physical combat ability that its training brought a Jedi very close to the dark side of the Force. Jedi Master Mace Windu studied the Form VII technique. To master it, a Jedi had to employ bold movements and be more kinetic than any other form. Form VII employed the use of overwhelming power directed through unconnected, staccato movements that kept an opponent continually off guard."

-- the Complete Star Wars Enyclopedia, A-G, page 290.

Juyo:

"The ancient term -- taken from the High Galactic -- for the primary variation on the Form VII lightsaber fighting style. This form of combat was believed to have been first developed on Sarapin by a nonsentient predator, and later adapted to lightsaber combat. It involved the use of streamlined attacks, coupled with physical strenght, to defeat an opponent. Juyo and its other variation, Vaapad, were considered the most difficult combat forms to learn and master because they required incredible discipline and control."

-- the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, H-O, page 184.

Gideon
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What is your overall point? We agree that Mace wouldn't get curbstomped. I'm sure we also agree that neither will Kas'im. I agree that Mace would logically fair better against Kas'im, but his knowledge of multiple forms don't guarantee him a victory. Neither does Vaapad or Shatterpoint. His shot is considerably better than Bane's.

That depends. I haven't had my copy of PoD in years, but it depends largely on how decisive Bane was defeating Kas'im. If he was doing so rather easily, then yes, I would say Windu would only have moderate difficulty with him.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
That depends. I haven't had my copy of PoD in years, but it depends largely on how decisive Bane was defeating Kas'im. If he was doing so rather easily, then yes, I would say Windu would only have moderate difficulty with him.

He was forcing him back but couldn't break through his defenses. I wouldn't call it a victory but close to one. He was screwed when Kas'im used the double blades.

Final Blaxican
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Lets not debate Bane's force abilities with Mace, because Bane is clearly above Mace in that category.

Not at the time of his fight with Kas'im, he wasn't. Which is the point.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Not at the time of his fight with Kas'im, he wasn't. Which is the point.

You're comparing a saber fight to a force battle? Spare me. Kas'im wouldn't be able to handle Bane in a force fight, neither would Mace.

Gideon
It is an all out fight, DS, which was the point.

Final Blaxican
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You're comparing a saber fight to a force battle? Spare me. Kas'im wouldn't be able to handle Bane in a force fight, neither would Mace.

That's... not what I'm doing at all.

Gideon
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
That's... not what I'm doing at all.

I just saved your ass and you repay me by blocking the post. F U my friend.

Final Blaxican
Read the edit nigga.

Gideon
Originally posted by Gideon
It is an all out fight, DS, which was the point.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
It is an all out fight, DS, which was the point.

I'm talking about a force battle though. Mace isn't on par with Bane.

Final Blaxican
I'm not talking about a force battle. no expression

Lightsnake
Seems Escape's covered everything I might've said there...anything to add, Red?

Eminence
No, cuz I won like a week ago.

Lightsnake
You are not Red.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Seems Escape's covered everything I might've said there...anything to add, Red?

I think I've said everything I have to say. Kas'im is darn good, but in the end he simply can't compete with Mace. One thing to note is that I don't have any speed feats for Kas'im (except keeping up with a neophyte Bane) while Mace is a blur. I don't think Mace can sweep 100% but he's definitely going to be the victor at least 8/10 times.

I think Mace takes this.

Dr McBeefington
Mace probably will take this but there's no guarantee for any party, which was my point and which was obvious. I'd say Mace takes it more often than not.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I think I've said everything I have to say. Kas'im is darn good, but in the end he simply can't compete with Mace. One thing to note is that I don't have any speed feats for Kas'im (except keeping up with a neophyte Bane) while Mace is a blur. I don't think Mace can sweep 100% but he's definitely going to be the victor at least 8/10 times.

I think Mace takes this.

*Blink* Did I convince you? I expected a visit to the woodshed

mattatom
Originally posted by Lightsnake
*Blink* Did I convince you? I expected a visit to the woodshed

It's evident Mace was going to win from the start, jus ttrying to give the opposition one or 2 out of 10 was the best that could be hoped for.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Lightsnake
*Blink* Did I convince you? I expected a visit to the woodshed

I don't really know what that means. Like, at all.

But yes. Mace's accomplishments outclass Kas'im's, and the one area that Kas'im does take is insufficient to deal with Mace's other advantages.

Eminence
I WIN.

Gideon
Actually, I won.

Eminence
He conceded a similar argument to me on a different thread about three days before you even posted here. I win, you simply ride the wave created by my success.

Gideon
You didn't do shit, you whore. He only yielded when I approached. He fears my wrath.

Edit: And he only waves you create are the tsunamis conjured by your fat ass leaping into a body of water, you obese bastard.

Eminence
Originally posted by Gideon
You didn't do shit, you whore. He only yielded when I approached. He fears my wrath.http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=504499&pagenumber=3

It only took three posts, too. Kunt.

no expression

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