What if the Empire invaded modern day earth?
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Hewhoknowsall
No space/air support, just ground troops (for the empire)
The empire sends an invasion force w/:
500,000 stormtroopers
1000 AT STs and tanks
100 AT ATs
Darth Vader is commander
Would they succeed?
This might seem like an easy win for the empire, but let's look at it.
Our toops would FAR outnumber them.
Our toops seem to be more accurate (stormtroopers couldn't hit Han Solo at close range), our guns have a faster rate of fire (blasters don't seem to fire at that fast of a rate), our armor actually does something (although it wouldn't really help vs. the blasters since they're heat), and our soldiers are overall better trained (a squad of stormtoopers w/rifles and armorcan't beat a smuggler, a princess and a farmboy w/ pistols)
Their AT STs actually got knocked back by a catapult
and got tripped by a stone age trap.
We could just use the same tactic as the snowspeeders. Or...
NUKES
Vader is powerful, and would certainly help in a small skirmish, but come on. In a huge war, one man that's powerful doesn't really help that much unless if he's superman or something; the jedi aren't really all that helpful (in the clone wars) IN TERMS of just head on fighting because there's only 10,000 of them.
GenomeFrozener
They would rape us.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by GenomeFrozener
They would rape us.
Even if all else fairs, would defenses do they have from a nuclear attack? Remember, no space fleet or anything for them.
mattatom
Vader would Force Push a nuke right back at us=Game Over.
-EDIT- Plus i'd take their side.
Eminence
WTF. America wins.
Darth Exodus
Nuke the Empire. Most of us win.
Vorpal Ruin
Earth would lose, badly. I would aslo defect to the empire, and one day join the rebellion.
mattatom
Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Earth would lose, badly. I would aslo defect to the empire, and one day join the rebellion.
Seems it's only you and me Vorpal, on a side note how did the Empire manage to get all that stuff on earth without air support? I woulda thought they'd of stayed around to extract there troops again.
Slash_KMC
I'd go to Dagobah and teach Yoda how to play chess. And that is my powerful contribution to this thread.
Srsly though, I don't think it's fair that they can't use air support while we can. Just drop some napalm and nukes on the Stormies, while making sure Vader is not around.
Lord Lucien
Ahem.
The Empire targets the nuclear powers first, splitting their forces around the globe, simultaneously attacking and deterring the nuclear powers from burning the entire planet.
Assuming of course the Empire aren't a pack of retards, they'll bring some AA with them, neutralizing our air forces along with jamming our satellite/radar capabilities.
No known conventional armament can withstand laser-based weaponry of Imperial caliber, rendering our superior number factor rather useless.
And since the Vs. forums take in to consideration the EU, stormtroopers aren't the bumbling morons of the movies, but are instead rigorously trained elite shock troops (despite Ush's zeal), our "superior training" will fall by the wayside. Especially in the wake of lasers. Take that Kevlar.
Also considering that the some 200 nations of this planet do not cooperate as well as we'd all like, chances are someone *cough*France*cough*Canada* is gonna sell someone out. Also considering that only the U.S., China, North Korea, and Russia have the military capabilities to dent Imperial numbers (ala prolonged air attacks, naval defences etc.) the rest of the world doesn't really count.
In the end, we may be able to hold out long enough to dwindle and divide the Imperials to the point that a war of attrition may arise in which case we WILL lose considering the immense likelihood of defection. The nuclear option leaves everyone dead ONLY if the Imperials do not possess or do not acquire a means to stop/protect themselves from it.
I didn't even factor in Vader.
Slash_KMC
You're so pessimistic. Good to know we can count on you when there's an alien invasion.
Sarcasm btw, I agree with you on most points.
Eminence
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ahem.
The Empire targets the nuclear powers first, splitting their forces around the globe, simultaneously attacking and deterring the nuclear powers from burning the entire planet.
Assuming of course the Empire aren't a pack of retards, they'll bring some AA with them, neutralizing our air forces along with jamming our satellite/radar capabilities.
No known conventional armament can withstand laser-based weaponry of Imperial caliber, rendering our superior number factor rather useless.
And since the Vs. forums take in to consideration the EU, stormtroopers aren't the bumbling morons of the movies, but are instead rigorously trained elite shock troops (despite Ush's zeal), our "superior training" will fall by the wayside. Especially in the wake of lasers. Take that Kevlar.
Also considering that the some 200 nations of this planet do not cooperate as well as we'd all like, chances are someone *cough*France*cough*Canada* is gonna sell someone out. Also considering that only the U.S., China, North Korea, and Russia have the military capabilities to dent Imperial numbers (ala prolonged air attacks, naval defences etc.) the rest of the world doesn't really count.
In the end, we may be able to hold out long enough to dwindle and divide the Imperials to the point that a war of attrition may arise in which case we WILL lose considering the immense likelihood of defection. The nuclear option leaves everyone dead ONLY if the Imperials do not possess or do not acquire a means to stop/protect themselves from it.
I didn't even factor in Vader. The OP renders your strongest point null and void and RotJ takes care of the rest. Ewoks and logs took down AT-STs and stormtroopers, that much is canon.
Also, we you!] have F-22s, so we win even harder.
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Eminence
The OP renders your strongest point null and void and RotJ takes care of the rest. Ewoks and logs took down AT-STs and stormtroopers, that much is canon.
Also, we you!] have F-22s, so we win even harder. He didn't say no anti-aircraft either, just no air support. And we have genetically modified teddy bears living in a gumdrop forest? *giggles obscenely*
We COULD have had the Avro Arrow in the early 50's, but nooooooo.
mattatom
Which Vader we talking about? Pre/post suit. I don't think we have a metal up to the caliber the Imperials do Vader will just blow through wall after wall. If they shoot a missile at him he could always try to stop it and turn it around.
Eminence
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He didn't say no anti-aircraft either, just no air support.Well, he gave a pretty detailed list of who and what the Imperials have access to.
TIEs suck, anyway.
Pygmy Bigfoots, *****.
*points and laughs*
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Ahem.
The Empire targets the nuclear powers first, splitting their forces around the globe, simultaneously attacking and deterring the nuclear powers from burning the entire planet.
Assuming of course the Empire aren't a pack of retards, they'll bring some AA with them, neutralizing our air forces along with jamming our satellite/radar capabilities.
No known conventional armament can withstand laser-based weaponry of Imperial caliber, rendering our superior number factor rather useless.
And since the Vs. forums take in to consideration the EU, stormtroopers aren't the bumbling morons of the movies, but are instead rigorously trained elite shock troops (despite Ush's zeal), our "superior training" will fall by the wayside. Especially in the wake of lasers. Take that Kevlar.
Also considering that the some 200 nations of this planet do not cooperate as well as we'd all like, chances are someone *cough*France*cough*Canada* is gonna sell someone out. Also considering that only the U.S., China, North Korea, and Russia have the military capabilities to dent Imperial numbers (ala prolonged air attacks, naval defences etc.) the rest of the world doesn't really count.
In the end, we may be able to hold out long enough to dwindle and divide the Imperials to the point that a war of attrition may arise in which case we WILL lose considering the immense likelihood of defection. The nuclear option leaves everyone dead ONLY if the Imperials do not possess or do not acquire a means to stop/protect themselves from it.
I didn't even factor in Vader.
There are only 500,000 of them, and there's quite a bit of nuclear powers nowadays. They would be stretching their forces way too thin.
Well, I didn't mention AA, but I guess it would be fair to let them have some. But even so, there would be a limited amount of them, so they can't shoot down EVERY jet they see.
No, but the range of the blaster rifles don't seem to be that high, and we would FAR outnumber them.
If the fate of the entire planet was at stake, then most civilized countries would cooperate.
Aren't the movies "G canon"? And doesn't that factor out whatever canon that the EU is? And even so, How do you justify a squad of stormtroopers losing to a farmboy, a princess and a smuggler? Besides, they're still FAR outnumbered, and their armor can't stop bullets if it can't stop rocks.
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
There are only 500,000 of them, and there's quite a bit of nuclear powers nowadays. They would be stretching their forces way too thin.
Well, I didn't mention AA, but I guess it would be fair to let them have some. But even so, there would be a limited amount of them, so they can't shoot down EVERY jet they see.
No, but the range of the blaster rifles don't seem to be that high, and we would FAR outnumber them.
If the fate of the entire planet was at stake, then most civilized countries would cooperate.
Aren't the movies "G canon"? And doesn't that factor out whatever canon that the EU is? And even so, How do you justify a squad of stormtroopers losing to a farmboy, a princess and a smuggler? Besides, they're still FAR outnumbered, and their armor can't stop bullets if it can't stop rocks. If you had the keys to the U.S. stockpile, would you nuke Russia, knowing they'll nuke you in turn--Imperials or no? Assuming Vader and his commanders aren't retards, they'll neutralize our nuclear deterrent by attacking the nuclear nations directly, resulting in one Nuke power being too scared to either nuke themselves or provoke another. And seeing as how all the nuclear powers are the military threats, the Empire won't waste time attacking Ethiopia.
500,000 laser wielding stormtroopers, 100 AT-ATs and 1000 AT-ST is a LOT to face even if your tech and knowledge is FROM Star Wars. 5 AT-AT and a few STs broke through rebel tenacity, laser canons, snowspeeders, and Luke Skywalker's sabotage. Everything the rebels had>what we have. Oh and then there's Vader.
Stormtrooper armor is vulnerable at the joints and is pierced (as far as I've seen) by blaster bolts only. Bullets are gonna have a harder time than blaster bolts. Range isn't gonna be much of a factor here unless we have hundreds of thousands of soldiers duking it out ala Geonosis in the deserts... which there are none in the major populated/strategic areas in the nuclear nations.
"Most." Your word. Not gonna mean much when tanks are vaporized by the Imp armor, buildings are blown out easier than the shield generator on Hoth, and Vader's TKing anyone that dares enter his view. Big enough show of strength and all the Frances and Italys of the world will bow down--namely all of South America, Africa, Indonesia, Australia, Canada, Eastern Europe. And if the nuclear powers enforce these regions' loyalty to Earth then... hey go ahead and split your forces and cause internal strife.
Again, the Vs. forum takes the Eu in to account, and in the EU, the stromies are elites. PIS aside, movie logic can have the protagonists as even more skilled than them. This was always a problem with the stormtroopers, there's too many discrepancies between the movies and EU.
Oh and just in case we REALLY get in to semantics, I'll point out now that we'd be facing 100 legions of fictional characters and Darth freaking Vader. Without firing shot, I'll kneel before Zod.
Eminence
You're lame.
Again, F-22s win. All Imp armor falls to bombing runs, piece of cake.
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Eminence
You're lame.
Again, F-22s win. All Imp armor falls to bombing runs, piece of cake. You've got a thing for jets haven't you?
Captain REX
What makes you think that the hulls of AT-AT armor would even be penetrated by our weapons? Those things alone would tear us new holes.
Hewhoknowsall
Darn! My computer wasn't working...
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If you had the keys to the U.S. stockpile, would you nuke Russia, knowing they'll nuke you in turn--Imperials or no? Assuming Vader and his commanders aren't retards, they'll neutralize our nuclear deterrent by attacking the nuclear nations directly, resulting in one Nuke power being too scared to either nuke themselves or provoke another. And seeing as how all the nuclear powers are the military threats, the Empire won't waste time attacking Ethiopia.
500,000 laser wielding stormtroopers, 100 AT-ATs and 1000 AT-ST is a LOT to face even if your tech and knowledge is FROM Star Wars. 5 AT-AT and a few STs broke through rebel tenacity, laser canons, snowspeeders, and Luke Skywalker's sabotage. Everything the rebels had>what we have. Oh and then there's Vader.
Stormtrooper armor is vulnerable at the joints and is pierced (as far as I've seen) by blaster bolts only. Bullets are gonna have a harder time than blaster bolts. Range isn't gonna be much of a factor here unless we have hundreds of thousands of soldiers duking it out ala Geonosis in the deserts... which there are none in the major populated/strategic areas in the nuclear nations.
"Most." Your word. Not gonna mean much when tanks are vaporized by the Imp armor, buildings are blown out easier than the shield generator on Hoth, and Vader's TKing anyone that dares enter his view. Big enough show of strength and all the Frances and Italys of the world will bow down--namely all of South America, Africa, Indonesia, Australia, Canada, Eastern Europe. And if the nuclear powers enforce these regions' loyalty to Earth then... hey go ahead and split your forces and cause internal strife.
Again, the Vs. forum takes the Eu in to account, and in the EU, the stromies are elites. PIS aside, movie logic can have the protagonists as even more skilled than them. This was always a problem with the stormtroopers, there's too many discrepancies between the movies and EU.
Oh and just in case we REALLY get in to semantics, I'll point out now that we'd be facing 100 legions of fictional characters and Darth freaking Vader. Without firing shot, I'll kneel before Zod.
Surely then, Iran could beat the world. All they have to do is to "go after the nuclear powers" and then the world won't cooperate w/eachother and they bring AA w/them to stop the air support and voila!
In other words, "going after the nuclear powers" is too vague. How are they supposed to?
And the stormtroopers got knocked unconscious (maybe even killed) by ROCKS. In the end, they got beaten by stone age ewoks.
Originally posted by Captain REX
What makes you think that the hulls of AT-AT armor would even be penetrated by our weapons? Those things alone would tear us new holes.
1. Nukes
2. Snowspeeder tactics (only w/jets)
mattatom
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Darn! My computer wasn't working...
Surely then, Iran could beat the world. All they have to do is to "go after the nuclear powers" and then the world won't cooperate w/eachother and they bring AA w/them to stop the air support and voila!
In other words, "going after the nuclear powers" is too vague. How are they supposed to?
And the stormtroopers got knocked unconscious (maybe even killed) by ROCKS. In the end, they got beaten by stone age ewoks.
1. Nukes
2. Snowspeeder tactics (only w/jets)
I didn't know we had jets with a rear mounted towcable on! Wow and we haven't used it in other situations around the globe what a waste of resources. If they use nukes There won't be a world to save.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by mattatom
I didn't know we had jets with a rear mounted towcable on! Wow and we haven't used it in other situations around the globe what a waste of resources. If they use nukes There won't be a world to save.
We could easily just attach towcables on.
mattatom
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
We could easily just attach towcables on.
The rear of our jets are strong enough to cope with the weight right?
That and a never tried before exercise is going to happen, delegations on whether it'll work or not will last years.
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Darn! My computer wasn't working...
Surely then, Iran could beat the world. All they have to do is to "go after the nuclear powers" and then the world won't cooperate w/eachother and they bring AA w/them to stop the air support and voila!
In other words, "going after the nuclear powers" is too vague. How are they supposed to?
And the stormtroopers got knocked unconscious (maybe even killed) by ROCKS. In the end, they got beaten by stone age ewoks.
1. Nukes
2. Snowspeeder tactics (only w/jets) Iran does not have the conventional firepower to take on the likes of China, India or the United States. Nor do they have lasers, AT-ATs or Darth Vader.
A legion of stormtroopers (best troops my ass) were ambushed by a pack of indigenous natives the Emperor had overlooked. In a forest. Supported by a rebel strike team and a Wookiee. Stand before a military council and advise them that their soldiers should dress up like bears and hide in Central Park. Then we can watch them get vaporized by the AT-ATs.
All kinda leaves you wondering how stumbling buffoons in plastic armor are the elite shock troops of a galaxy-spanning empire.
Oh, and as for the snowspeeder thing: no jet plane in existence can travel slow enough to turn as quickly as the speeders, towing a cable behind them, while dodging turbolaser blasts, Vader's TK, and the side of the terrain.
mattatom
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh, and as for the snowspeeder thing: no jet plane in existence can travel slow enough to turn as quickly as the speeders, towing a cable behind them, while dodging turbolaser blasts, Vader's TK, and the side of the terrain.
Yeh Lucien decredited the snowspeeder bit, alot better than me.
Hewhoknowsall
Vader has the power of what - about 50 stormtroopers? AT MOST (and this is really stretching it) 100. So having Vader on your side is like having +100 troops (irrelevant in the grand scheme of things), discounting Vader's "morale boost" and tactical command. Does he know battle meditation?
mattatom
HE may not but he knows how to throw things back at their sources mhm bombs/missiles anyone. Hey you never specified which Vader this is, could be pre Mustafar Vader. = Slightly more than a 100 stormtroopers.
Hewhoknowsall
And besides, the imperials will have SERIOUS supply/food/fuel problems. Plus, what if every nation equips every at least semi healthy man and woman and tells them to fight? That would be about a billion (correct me if I'm wrong) people! Each stormtrooper would have to face 2000 people. Even if the people are unarmed, the stormtroopers alone would lose.
Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
And besides, the imperials will have SERIOUS supply/food/fuel problems. Plus, what if every nation equips every at least semi healthy man and woman and tells them to fight? That would be about a billion (correct me if I'm wrong) people! Each stormtrooper would have to face 2000 people. Even if the people are unarmed, the stormtroopers alone would lose.
Why would you make a versus thread when you're absolutely positive one side would win ?
You hold a grudge against the Empire ?
mattatom
Okay using your OWN quote a spear was unable to pierce their armour. 2000 Unarmed civillians. Automatic blasters. Imperials would have that.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by mattatom
Okay using your OWN quote a spear was unable to pierce their armour. 2000 Unarmed civillians. Automatic blasters. Imperials would have that.
Even so, these civilians would at least have a hunting rifle or something, and if a rock could hurt stormtroopers...
When did I say that a spear couldn't pierce their armor (not that it can)?
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Why would you make a versus thread when you're absolutely positive one side would win ?
You hold a grudge against the Empire ?
Generally, when people take a side in a debate, they're positive that their side would win.
Slash_KMC
I thought that generally, when people start a versus debate they made it because they don't really know for sure which side would win so they call on other people's opinions for this.
Red Nemesis
False.
This is also false. Iran does not have the capacity to take out a single nuclear power, let alone the alliance that would form against them (and to continue the scenario the Empire).
Hewhoknowsall
That statement about Iran was sarcasm.
Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
That statement about Iran was sarcasm.
Clearly. It was also ridiculing (or trying to) the idea that the Empire could simply 'go after the nuclear powers' in order to win. You found the idea to be poorly thought out so you rejected it. You chose to do so on suspect grounds though. The Empire is far stronger than Iran, even with such a low number of troops. Your analogy, no matter how sarcastic, falls apart under the most cursory examination. Do try again, won't you?
Forum Ninja
Originally posted by Eminence
The OP renders your strongest point null and void and RotJ takes care of the rest. Ewoks and logs took down AT-STs and stormtroopers, that much is canon.
Also, we you!] have F-22s, so we win even harder.
That really made me hate that film.
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Even so, these civilians would at least have a hunting rifle or something, and if a rock could hurt stormtroopers...
When did I say that a spear couldn't pierce their armor (not that it can)?
Generally, when people take a side in a debate, they're positive that their side would win. You're not very good at this. Pick a side, fine. By why create the debate if you already know who will win?
Your "Vader= Xnumber of troops" thing is warped. Seeing as how these would be troops with lightsabers and the Dark Side...
And your "Arm every civilian" thing is warped too. Consider: Civilians don't "take up arms" even in the worst of scenarios. Case in point, 6 million Jews could have seriously hindered the German army, instead they allowed themselves to be shepherded, numbered, and killed. Now instead of Nazis, imagine 500,000 plastic-coated men from outer-space, armed with laser guns, 60-foot walking death-mobiles, and a man capable of tossing a mob around in the air like rag dolls (he's also scary to look at).
If every militarily-threatened nation FORCED their civilians to fight, they'd expend resources just doing that, nevermind shattering their people's trust in them. F*ck, if the government told me to "fight or we'll shoot you ourselves" then I'd be defecting to the Imperials with as many secrets as I can carry. Civil conflict amongst your enemies is BRILLIANT----can you imagine if America had to fight its own people while ALSO fighting the Japanese and Germans?
And the whole supply problem thing... once every E-11 is out of ammo, every heavy blaster and repeating cannon is drained---you pick up the weapons of your dead enemies and keep shooting. You take the food of said enemies. This won't be like Barbarossa; the Imps will be facing people the world over who will be unwilling to destroy their only lifeline.
Seriously, do you think that half a million stormtroopers, hundreds of AT-ATs and a bloody 1000 STs all under VADER's command (circa RoTJ I'm assuming in accordance with all the mentioning of it) will be going down lightly? In my own head I'm thinking that YOU think that everything will be happening in a forest like on Endor, or in a desert ala Geonosis. But even those examples pale in comparison to these numbers YOU offered up. Even if Earth WINS, the Imps would have the last laugh. The destruction such a war of attrition would cause... and a nuclear war! Imagine! Every Imp dead at the cost of us dieing with them.
Hewhoknowsall
There are several things that hinder the empire:
1. they don't know about the planet their on
2. how can they "attack the nuclear powers?" they don't have ships with them, and the countries could very well just have all their ships out in sea (out of reach) and burn all of the non military ships. The nuclear powers are on opposite sides of the world
3. they have no transportation other than their feet and vehicles.
4. they have limited ammo, fuel, food and water
5. they have no long ranged weaponry, making their only defense against artillery and balistic misiles (not necesarily nulcear) Vader force pushing them back; but would if you send a TON at them at once? It's not like as if he could stop ALL of them
6. Every time they capture a city, they have to leave forces behind in order to keep order. But there's only 500,000 of them, and there's a LOT of cities in the world. Sure, they don't have to capture every last one, but they at least have to take the major ones. But some of those major ones have a big population, so they can't just leave behind 10 stormtroopers.
An AT ST stumbled after getting hit by a catapult. Imagine what a hit from a tank cannon would do to it. Its range also appears to rather low, and it got tripped over by a rope. They won't really be a threat.
Stormtroopers got knocked out by rocks. Because of this, it only takes one hit to at least knock out each stormtrooper, so all you have to do is to surround each stormtrooper w/5 or so soldiers (and we outnumber them). At least one bullet is going to hit them. And, each stormtrooper won't have to face 5; they'll probably have to face odds of 3:1 in EVERY encounter. The stormtrooper shoots at one soldier (and probably misses given that they can't hit Han Solo after a gazillion tries) and IF they hit then the other 2 just shoot the stormie. And if they miraculously win that engagement, then they have to face another fresh, full power force while they will be tired and short on supplies.
OK, so maybe you can't use towcables against the AT ATs at first, but I'm pretty sure there would be a way to beat them; 100 of them alone won't win the war alone, especially w/the supply contraints (I doubt that the AT ATs run on gas, and I doubt they'll find the fuel that drives them on our planet) and the fact that most ships can't carry them (if they somehow find a ship)
And no, they WONT go down lightly, but 500,000 men aren't taking down a world of 6 billion.
Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
There are several things that hinder the empire:
1. they don't know about the planet their on
Irrelevant.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
2. how can they "attack the nuclear powers?" they don't have ships with them, and the countries could very well just have all their ships out in sea (out of reach) and burn all of the non military ships. The nuclear powers are on opposite sides of the world
3. they have no transportation other than their feet and vehicles.
As they conquer whatever continent they are on they will produce transports.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
4. they have limited ammo, fuel, food and water
Fuel is irrelevant (cold fusion FTW) and ammo (since you are using only movie material) is also irrelevant: ammo is never changed or depleted in the movies (That I can remember) so it isn't a problem here.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
5. they have no long ranged weaponry, making their only defense against artillery and balistic misiles (not necesarily nulcear) Vader force pushing them back; but would if you send a TON at them at once? It's not like as if he could stop ALL of them
The tanks can shoot upwards and Vader's Force strength is enormous. I wouldn't bet against him. Anyway, do you have proof or math(s) that suggest a nuke could take out a Walker?
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
6. Every time they capture a city, they have to leave forces behind in order to keep order. But there's only 500,000 of them, and there's a LOT of cities in the world. Sure, they don't have to capture every last one, but they at least have to take the major ones. But some of those major ones have a big population, so they can't just leave behind 10 stormtroopers.
Or they just kill everyone. Base Delta Zero shows that they wouldn't have a moral qualm and they could take out a city pretty easily.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
An AT ST stumbled after getting hit by a catapult. Imagine what a hit from a tank cannon would do to it. Its range also appears to rather low, and it got tripped over by a rope. They won't really be a threat.
What? This is just silly...
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Stormtroopers got knocked out by rocks. Because of this, it only takes one hit to at least knock out each stormtrooper, so all you have to do is to surround each stormtrooper w/5 or so soldiers (and we outnumber them). At least one bullet is going to hit them. And, each stormtrooper won't have to face 5; they'll probably have to face odds of 3:1 in EVERY encounter. The stormtrooper shoots at one soldier (and probably misses given that they can't hit Han Solo after a gazillion tries) and IF they hit then the other 2 just shoot the stormie. And if they miraculously win that engagement, then they have to face another fresh, full power force while they will be tired and short on supplies.
OK, so maybe you can't use towcables against the AT ATs at first, but I'm pretty sure there would be a way to beat them; 100 of them alone won't win the war alone, especially w/the supply contraints (I doubt that the AT ATs run on gas, and I doubt they'll find the fuel that drives them on our planet) and the fact that most ships can't carry them (if they somehow find a ship)
And no, they WONT go down lightly, but 500,000 men aren't taking down a world of 6 billion.
You're silly. The Empire has the technological advantage as well as the disciplinary one. They have no civilians to protect and no long-term consequences for their actions. As such, they are free to commit atrocities as needed while the rest of the world must be careful not to step on each others' toes. Empire takes this.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Irrelevant.
As they conquer whatever continent they are on they will produce transports.
Fuel is irrelevant (cold fusion FTW) and ammo (since you are using only movie material) is also irrelevant: ammo is never changed or depleted in the movies (That I can remember) so it isn't a problem here.
The tanks can shoot upwards and Vader's Force strength is enormous. I wouldn't bet against him. Anyway, do you have proof or math(s) that suggest a nuke could take out a Walker?
Or they just kill everyone. Base Delta Zero shows that they wouldn't have a moral qualm and they could take out a city pretty easily.
What? This is just silly...
You're silly. The Empire has the technological advantage as well as the disciplinary one. They have no civilians to protect and no long-term consequences for their actions. As such, they are free to commit atrocities as needed while the rest of the world must be careful not to step on each others' toes. Empire takes this.
It's not irrelevant. Let's say they start off in South America. How will they know which way to go? Where civilization is? Etc.
OK then. Think about it. 500,000 vs SEVERAL MILLION! They'd get worn down by attrition.
I never said that we're only using movie material, but OK then.
The tanks in the movies have a pathetic range, and if vader can force push an entire group of missiles, then when Luke was in his X wing about to destroy the death star, why didn't he just use the force to smash the X wing?
If they kill everyone, then what's the point of invading? They'll just have a lifeless world...
How is it silly? You can't deny that a catapult made an AT ST stumble. A CATAPULT.
Well, since we're using the movies, stormtroopers have an EXTREMELY hard time hitting a guy at close range, and can't beat a farmboy, a smuggler and a princess even when they outnumber the trio. The stormtroopers also get knocked out by rocks, so a bullet would obviously take them down. And can you please say HOW my argument is silly instead of just saying that I am? One stormtrooper < one earth soldier because the stormtroopers can't hit a guy right next to them. They also have no concept of cover; do you ever see them using cover in the movies?
Hewhoknowsall
So this is how it goes:
In every encounter, the stormtroopers would find themselves outnumbered 3:1 or more. Each stormtrooper would have to handle 3 soldiers. And how can they do that if 20 stormtroopers can't beat 3 untrained men w/pistols?
They'd also constantly get bombarded by missiles and artillery, OVER AND OVER. They'd also have to move slowly so that their AT ATs can catch up (and, in the movies, they're VERY slow), so that means more time to comsume food (no "cold fusion" in movies) and for Vader to get tired from constantly having to deflect loads of missiles!
Then, once they actually engage an enemy army, they'd be outnumbered by troops who (by movie stormtrooper standards) are far superior. Their only saving grace would be the AT ATs, so they'd win, but not after suffering tons of casualties.
So, then they'd have only, let's say 450,000 stormtroopers (the stormtroopers/clones seem to die fast and in huge amounts) and most of their AT STs (the "I got hit by a catapult oh my!"
and a good deal of their AA guns.
And they have to repeat this multiple times, over and over, with their numbers getting smaller and smaller.
And for those saying that "oh the empire wins cause they got lasers and all that" think about it for a sec. In the moives, are their blasters really superior to our guns? There's no evidence suggesting that they have greater firepower, they have about the same range and don't fire that fast given that it's a laser gun.
mattatom
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
No space/air support, just ground troops (for the empire)
The empire sends an invasion force w/:
500,000 stormtroopers
1000 AT STs and tanks
100 AT ATs
Darth Vader is commander
Would they succeed?
This might seem like an easy win for the empire, but let's look at it.
Our toops would FAR outnumber them.
Our toops seem to be more accurate (stormtroopers couldn't hit Han Solo at close range), our guns have a faster rate of fire (blasters don't seem to fire at that fast of a rate), our armor actually does something (although it wouldn't really help vs. the blasters since they're heat), and our soldiers are overall better trained (a squad of stormtoopers w/rifles and armorcan't beat a smuggler, a princess and a farmboy w/ pistols)
Their AT STs actually got knocked back by a catapult
and got tripped by a stone age trap.
We could just use the same tactic as the snowspeeders. Or...
NUKES
Vader is powerful, and would certainly help in a small skirmish, but come on. In a huge war, one man that's powerful doesn't really help that much unless if he's superman or something; the jedi aren't really all that helpful (in the clone wars) IN TERMS of just head on fighting because there's only 10,000 of them.
So wheres this bit saying it's ANH then?
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by mattatom
So wheres this bit saying it's ANH then?
Sorry, I didn't specify. It's ANH.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So this is how it goes:
In every encounter, the stormtroopers would find themselves outnumbered 3:1 or more. Each stormtrooper would have to handle 3 soldiers. And how can they do that if 20 stormtroopers can't beat 3 untrained men w/pistols?
They'd also constantly get bombarded by missiles and artillery, OVER AND OVER. They'd also have to move slowly so that their AT ATs can catch up (and, in the movies, they're VERY slow), so that means more time to comsume food (no "cold fusion" in movies) and for Vader to get tired from constantly having to deflect loads of missiles!
Then, once they actually engage an enemy army, they'd be outnumbered by troops who (by movie stormtrooper standards) are far superior. Their only saving grace would be the AT ATs, so they'd win, but not after suffering tons of casualties.
So, then they'd have only, let's say 450,000 stormtroopers (the stormtroopers/clones seem to die fast and in huge amounts) and most of their AT STs (the "I got hit by a catapult oh my!"
and a good deal of their AA guns.
And they have to repeat this multiple times, over and over, with their numbers getting smaller and smaller.
And for those saying that "oh the empire wins cause they got lasers and all that" think about it for a sec. In the moives, are their blasters really superior to our guns? There's no evidence suggesting that they have greater firepower, they have about the same range and don't fire that fast given that it's a laser gun.
(updated)
mattatom
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Sorry, I didn't specify. It's ANH.
Too late to specify now.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by mattatom
Too late to specify now.
What are you saying? I'm sorry but I forgot to specify. But it's not "too late" too specify.
mattatom
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What are you saying? I'm sorry but I forgot to specify. But it's not "too late" too specify.
Thats like in a DE sidious vs Yoda fight.
*people are arguing about who'll win*
Oh btw a little edit i meant Yoda on his death bed.
Sorta ruins the whole vs. experience.
For a while.
Red Nemesis
Originally posted by mattatom
Too late to specify now.
Don't be a jerk. He knows who wins and no amount of argument will change his mind. It isn't too late: he can still manipulate the environment as he sees fit (he is the OP). Next Earth will discover Cold Fusion (and temporal weapons) while the Empire regresses to pre-hyperspace tech levels.
On a completely unrelated note, Jar Jar Binks is more powerful than Darth Vader because he could have killed lil' Annie in TPM. Also, Darth Sidious would lose to Yoda because Sidious was terrible during TPM. Hell, he didn't even use the Force!
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by mattatom
Thats like in a DE sidious vs Yoda fight.
*people are arguing about who'll win*
Oh btw a little edit i meant Yoda on his death bed.
Sorta ruins the whole vs. experience.
For a while.
That is a WAY exaggerated analogy...
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Don't be a jerk. He knows who wins and no amount of argument will change his mind. It isn't too late: he can still manipulate the environment as he sees fit (he is the OP). Next Earth will discover Cold Fusion (and temporal weapons) while the Empire regresses to pre-hyperspace tech levels.
On a completely unrelated note, Jar Jar Binks is more powerful than Darth Vader because he could have killed lil' Annie in TPM. Also, Darth Sidious would lose to Yoda because Sidious was terrible during TPM. Hell, he didn't even use the Force!
All I said is that Vader is from ANH. That's it. I never manipulated the environment any more. In fact, you guys sorta did by giving the Empire AA guns when I never gave them it, and I AGREED.
Alkaselzer
In any case, the situation is so totally unrealistic. Why the hell would the Imperials not have their ships to transport them across the world? The only reason they would all land in one spot would be because they were forced to, and we haven't anything to force them with.
Captain REX
Not to burst your bubble, but our heroes from ANH are not without experience. Han Solo trained in the Imperial academies and is an avid gunslinger. Leia also has combat training for self-protection and fighting the war against the Empire. Luke at least has some knowledge of blasters as he has a rifle on Tatooine that he intends to use against the Tuskens if they attack him.
The AT-ATs are shown to have great range as it is, and being huge they move ponderously but cover distances about as fast as footsoldiers would, I should think. I could see artillery being a problem, but not for the AT-ATs...
Have we seen bullets used against stormtrooper armor? Ever? Crappy marskmen or not, the stormtroopers' blasters would make short work of opponents. Especially witht he support from Vader and the walkers.
So, then they'd have only, let's say 450,000 stormtroopers (the stormtroopers/clones seem to die fast and in huge amounts) and most of their AT STs (the "I got hit by a catapult oh my!"
and a good deal of their AA guns.
You're really banking on that catapult thing. It's annoying. Catapults launch incredibly heavy projectiles that would be able to knock the thing over, yes, but we don't use heavy projectiles, we use explosives. There is not even a guarantee that our weapons do much to them.
Also, why discrediting the stormtroopers as dying fast? How many people died in World War II? In Vietnam? In modern wars? America has lost over 3000 troops to the war in Iraq, but the Iraqis have lost 35,000. I don't think the stormtroopers would die as quickly as you think they would.
You're also using the logic that Earth would throw everything they've got immediately. I don't think that'd happen. If the Empire is moving from country to country, they would knock them down one by one, like pins. The idea that they don't have any transports to get across the waters to other nations is just ridiculous and intentionally inflicted upon them by you so that they can't even fight the war they're being put into. They will figure it out; there are variants of AT-ATs that are aquatic, I'm sure they could modify their walkers.
Have you ever blown open a solid metal door with a pistol? Has anyone? Lasers punch holes in stormtrooper armor. You don't need to spray-and-pray as we do with burstfire weapons here on Earth. One hit will do if it is not a glancing shot.
Also, I'm going to say that the firepower of lasers coming from AT-ATs will dominate whatever we throw at them, unless we decide to just destroy the Earth with nukes.
Hewhoknowsall
So Luke has "some" experience w/the blaster, Han trained in imperial academies and Leia took self defense lessons - so does that mean that Leia's self defense lessons and Lukes "some" experience are greater than the stormtroopers' training enough so that they can take out a huge group of them? Han is the only one that actually got formal training, and if Leia's self defense lessons are that much better than the Stormtroopers', then...
And we can very much make modernized catapults/trebucheut that are even better than the ewoks'. And, if a rock could knock out a stormtrooper, than A BULLET CERTAINLY CAN!!!
"Crappy marskmen or not, the stormtroopers' blasters would make short work of opponents."
You can't make quick work of an opponent if you can't hit them.
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So Luke has "some" experience w/the blaster, Han trained in imperial academies and Leia took self defense lessons - so does that mean that Leia's self defense lessons and Lukes "some" experience are greater than the stormtroopers' training enough so that they can take out a huge group of them? Han is the only one that actually got formal training, and if Leia's self defense lessons are that much better than the Stormtroopers', then...
And we can very much make modernized catapults/trebucheut that are even better than the ewoks'. And, if a rock could knock out a stormtrooper, than A BULLET CERTAINLY CAN!!!
"Crappy marskmen or not, the stormtroopers' blasters would make short work of opponents."
You can't make quick work of an opponent if you can't hit them. A rock didn't "knock out" a Stormtrooper, it knocked him over. Then they got gang-raped my 3-foot teddies who continued bludgeoning them with rocks.
Your entire argument rests on the belief that every soldier who faces a barrage of laser fire and having NO protection against it, will stand their ground and fight. They won't. They'll be vaporized. This isn't Battlefront or some RTS game, people faced with insurmountable odds will high-tail it out of there.
To re-quote the passage Avis provided:
"Qorl stood inside the training chamber holding a wicked-looking spear in his black-wrapped left hand. His droid replacement gripped the gleaming shaft with enough force to dent the metal."
...
"He cocked his droid arm back - and hurled the deadly weapon ..."
"Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness."
...
"He looked down at his chest in amazement and saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck."
A "wicked-looking" spear (not Native-American, not Macedonian---wicked-looking in Star Wars terms) hurled by a mechanical prosthesis NICKED the armor. Stormtrooper can withstand a vacuum and intense temperatures, it'll handle a round from an AK-47 or M16.
In the meantime, AT-ATs are made out of reinforced durasteel known for its, incidentally enough, extreme durability. To borrow from Wookiee's article on it----"Durasteel was an incredibly strong and versatile metal alloy, created from carvanium, lommite, carbon, meleenium, neutronium, and zersium. It was capable of withstanding blistering heat, frigid cold, and monumental physical stress, even when very thin. Because of these properties, durasteel was used for almost everything, from smelting pots for other less hearty metals, to spacecraft hulls." Combine this with their weapon's ability to blow away entire building with one charged shot and a maximum speed of 60 km/h, no tank, soldier or known conventional explosive will be able to withstand/outrun or pierce it.
As for your "how will they attack the nuclear nations?" Counter-question----how did they arrive on the planet in the first place? Use those same transports
Where will they find food? All around. Where will they find ammo and weapons capable of taking on Earth's military? All around. Where will they find additional transport, spare parts and materiel? All around. Where or where will they themselves get their hands on a nuclear warhead? In one of the tens of thousands of silos they're bound to run into. Where will they find willing and terrified accomplices? In cowards and pragmatists. When will they be able to convince Earth's nations to lay down their arms or risk global annihilation? After the first few cities are obliterated and the first several million soldiers are killed.
mattatom
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Where will they find willing and terrified accomplices? In cowards and pragmatists.
Also the smart people who know the Empire will win.
Mhm seeing the world in terms of what works best? Yeh I reckon the Empire would be the side to side with in this battle.
Hewhoknowsall
You know what, I give up. I still think that the Empire would lose, but most of you think the opposite. Us arguing won't change either of our minds.
I respect your opinion, and you make quite a few good points, but I don't see 500,000 men taking on the whole world.
Lord Lucien
We do. So long as those are spacemen with laser guns.
Darth Truculent
SEMPER FI!!!!!!!!!!
I'd seriously like to see a stormtrooper take an Army Ranger, Green Beret, A Delta Force or a Navy SEAL in hand to hand combat. Come on guys, a stormtrooper is no match for a marine or the special forces. Even with Vader leading there is no way in hell they would be able to defeat the corp.
Everyone is screaming about AT-AT - try a submarine firing a Tomahawk or a Harpoon Missile? Now a Harpoon is anti-ship missile, but re-calibrate that son-of-a-bitich and you've got yourself an AT-AT killer. TOW missile will do the same thing. A Walker would be a bit more difficult, but drop some artillery on that ***** and it's dead. Artillery is a hell of a lot more accurate that a mere laser cannon.
Forgot - an M1A2 Abrams main battle tank will take out an AT-AT or AT-ST easily. The M1A2 can destroy a target over 2 km away while moving at 45 mph due to it's laser sighting and infrared targeting systems.
Almost forgot, try getting a an AT-AT or a Walker across the Sierra Nevada or Rocky Mountains. IMPOSSIBLE!
Hewhoknowsall
An Abrams could take out an AT-ST, but no way an AT-AT
Final Blaxican
An AT-AT can be toppled over with enough concussive force to the side. It weighs... what? maybe a few hundred tons maximum?
Enough missiles/heavy artillery would knock it over for sure, because of how top heavy it is.
Hewhoknowsall
"I'd love to see a Ranger, Green Beret, Delta Force or Navy SEAL jumping to semi-automatic blaster fire from a stormtrooper and try to close into hand to hand combat. I really can't see that happening."
Stormtroopers got knocked out by rocks.
So, obviously they could get knocked out by a gun.
Their semi automatic blasters are powerful, but a squad of stormtroopers couldn't hit Han at close range. You can't kill what you can't hit.
So, all the Ranger/Green Beret/etc has to do is to hit the stormtrooper once in a solid hit, and the stormtrooper goes down. Sure, the stormtrooper only needs one hit too, but
1. he'll be outnumbered (only 500,000 of them)
2. he can't hit some guy at close range
Darth Truculent
Borbarad, Abrams tanks fire uranium depleted rounds that burn through any and I mean any type of armor. The rounds are radioactive. A TOW missile is an anti-tank weapon so yeah, that'd blow straight through virtually any armor including an AT-AT or AT-ST. Modern weaponry isn't contact explosives - they're armor piercing. Say a couple of Walkers are threatening your position - a few Harpoons will take it out.
Special Forces strike hard and fast. They're quick, mobile and a stormtrooper squad would be dead before they knew they were even there. Most of all, they fight mostly at night. I have a friend who is a Ranger and he says that a stormtrooper wouldn't stand a chance. Besides, they can't kill with their hands because they're wearing too much armor!
Blasters lack ironsights and laser sighting that are standard on the M16 & M4 Carbine. A Blaster also lacks the rate of fire of an M60 or a SAW heavy machine gun. A Blaster sniper rifle can't kill over a mile away that .50 caliber or the Remington 700 (standard sniper rifle - 308) can. Simply put, Earth infantry weapons are far more deadly than anything Star Wars can think of - save the lightsaber.
Marines vs Stormtroopers? Hands down Marines. Even against the 501st, a Marine brigade will emerge victorious. When was the last time the Empire fought urban warfare? The only nation that has the ability to stop a Marine brigade is the Mandos.
Sorry, but Earth would be bloodied, but victorious.
Final Blaxican
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right. You have to hit that thing multiple times on a top spot from the side with enough force to destabilize it.
Considering the side is about 50 feet tall and we have missiles accurate enough to hit tanks from 20,000 feet without disrupting the water statue next to it, that's really not a problem.
The same AT-At that moves at about 10 miles an hour?
Seriously?
The same vehicle that was barely able to hit the snow speeders that were a hundred feet in front of it and moving at a slower speed than most of our jets today? It's going to be blasting F-22's and Mach 3 jet fighters out of the sky?
Seriously?
The Imperials ground forces are primitive in comparison with even today's technology. Show some faith!
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. he'll be outnumbered (only 500,000 of them)
2. he can't hit some guy at close range Just out of curiosity, why do you think all the world's soldiers will be ganging up all at once?
Final Blaxican
Even with just one military they'll still be outnumbering them.
But it honestly makes a lot of sense for there to be most of the world at once.
How long do you think the fight would last in America before Britain and Canada, the latter of which shares the same continent with America, would jump into the fray?
Considering the Imperials would be a global threat with their technology, it wouldn't make sense for most of the world to NOT get involved.
And if you include countries like Russia, China, Australia.. you've got at least 10 to 1 odds.
Lord Lucien
Maybe it's my inability to trust people, but I have doubts as to whether certain countries will rush to other certain countries' aid. And then there's the appeasers.
Final Blaxican
Well, I agree. I don't think Iran would come running.
But, there are enough countries who would, that things like that are off-set.
Lord Lucien
Plus Canada, you know... our eleven horsemen and 50 arquebuses won't be much of a credit.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Just out of curiosity, why do you think all the world's soldiers will be ganging up all at once?
ONE army would outnumber them.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Borbarad, Abrams tanks fire uranium depleted rounds that burn through any and I mean any type of armor. The rounds are radioactive. A TOW missile is an anti-tank weapon so yeah, that'd blow straight through virtually any armor including an AT-AT or AT-ST. Modern weaponry isn't contact explosives - they're armor piercing. Say a couple of Walkers are threatening your position - a few Harpoons will take it out.
Special Forces strike hard and fast. They're quick, mobile and a stormtrooper squad would be dead before they knew they were even there. Most of all, they fight mostly at night. I have a friend who is a Ranger and he says that a stormtrooper wouldn't stand a chance. Besides, they can't kill with their hands because they're wearing too much armor!
Blasters lack ironsights and laser sighting that are standard on the M16 & M4 Carbine. A Blaster also lacks the rate of fire of an M60 or a SAW heavy machine gun. A Blaster sniper rifle can't kill over a mile away that .50 caliber or the Remington 700 (standard sniper rifle - 308) can. Simply put, Earth infantry weapons are far more deadly than anything Star Wars can think of - save the lightsaber.
Marines vs Stormtroopers? Hands down Marines. Even against the 501st, a Marine brigade will emerge victorious. When was the last time the Empire fought urban warfare? The only nation that has the ability to stop a Marine brigade is the Mandos.
Sorry, but Earth would be bloodied, but victorious.
QFT
Final Blaxican
I just did some of the math.
On Wookiepedia, it states that the Snowspeeder's top attack speed is 374 MPH and its top speed total is 683 MPH.
An F-22's attack speed is 700 MPH and it's top speed total is 1,317 mph
So... yeah. It's twice as fast, has twice as much attack range, and is more heavily armed.
"In testing, an F22 dropped a 1,000 lb (450 kg) JDAM from 50,000 feet (15,000 m), while cruising at Mach 1.5, striking a moving target 24 miles (39 km) away."
AT-AT's will last maybe half an hour at best.
Eminence
So what you're saying is... I still win.
Darth Truculent
Out of curiousity first - what is QFT?
Considering air support too, an AT-AT would be chewed up by an A-10 firing Hellfire anti-tank missiles. Oh yeah, the 30mm Vulcan cannon on an A-10 also fires uranium depleted rounds. The Imps not only would have to deal with the F-22, but also the F/A-18C, F-15C & F-16C. I'm only scratching the surface - MiGs and British fighters are also just as deadly.
The Empire would suffer horrendous casualties in the U.S - simply put our military has better training and equipment than the stormtrooper. Where in SW canon state that the Empire has special forces? An AT-AT is a slow easy target therefore easy to kill. A 5.56mm round from an M16 or an M4 Carbine would pierce stormtrooper armor and kill the man inside. 7.62mm from an AK-47 or AK-74 would do the same.
Sorry I had to go into the technical aspect of modern Earth based weaponry.
Final Blaxican
QFT= Quoted for Truth.
Darth Truculent
Thank you Final Blaxian - I think that some in here forget that modern Earth based weaponry is sometimes more destructive than SW.
The modern soldier can easily carry up to 1500 rounds of ammunition at any given time including six or eight grenades. They're not piss-poor shots like a stormtrooper. Sure a Blaster is a good weapon, but it can overheat and malfunction. Unlike a rifle, you can't unjam an E-11.
Final Blaxican
Here's something cool.
http://gizmodo.com/351467/navy-rail-gun-test-destroys-everything-it-touches-at-5640-mph
5,640 mph. Really?
That's insane. I read in another article that the force upon impact would be similiar to egtting hit by a minivan moving at Mach 5. That's... hundreds of thousands of poudns of force I'm sure.
Jaeh.is.Awesome
Nice stuff on the earth-based tech specs there.
The problem I see in here is, we don't know if the people here on earth would even band against the Imps. I mean, there might be lots willing to join them, and also there is a possible problem of countries turning against each other in the conquest of power (and joining the Empire and cooperating with them).
We're not exactly like the SW worlds, in which almost always the whole world is united under one body of leadership (or something like that), and would have to follow the said leadership rules. We have different countries here, and different interests. Some countries might just surrender to the Emp. so it wouldn't get massacred and give away supplies as tribute or something, and even join in the fight against other countries.
Earth-based tech might possibly beat the Empire, but if our people defect and stuff anyway, then we would prolly just lose to the Empire.
Final Blaxican
But one country alone, like America or Britain or even Russia, would defeat the force by itself. So even if they didn't band together the Imperials would still live.
Jaeh.is.Awesome
but what if they didn't attack america or britain first? what if the circumstances allowed for them to land on a country (dunno which, can't pinpoint anyone) who would defect and be willing to join them?
as said earlier, they don't know the place. although i'm not dismissing the possibility that if they land on, let's say, america, that they'd be screwed, they might land on some country that would be willing to defect and help.
Final Blaxican
That idea was brought up before, and the idea was that they'd just be nuked then. One Nuclear warhead would destroy the entire army anyway, and whatever country defected would be seen as an enemy of not just one nation, but the entire world.
The reason why it makes sense for the Imperials to target America or Russia or the UK first is because they possess the most nuclear weapons, and would be less willing to use them on their own soil or allied soil,
Jaeh.is.Awesome
it was? my bad - i thought i had finished reading the whole thread.
but either way, do the people on earth in this period know that the empire is hostile? or will the empire go hostile on earth immediately? who knows, maybe they'd go with diplomacy... *shrug* maybe even share the tech and show them how to do stuff and how it all works...
maybe they would just strike some sort of alliance.
although when it comes to war itself, I'm not sure how earth would go about. you guys - both sides have good arguments.
I'd like to read more - I hope someone from the other side would answer.
Lord Lucien
What other side?
EDIT: And that railgun looks f*cking amazing.
Hewhoknowsall
The countries that do defect to the imperials will probably be small, third world countries that wouldn't really help the imperials that much.
But seriously, some Star Wars tech is actually LESS advanced than modern tech: how come the Star Wars computers look like computers from the 50s (big, bulky with cheesy buttons)?
Eminence
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
5,640 mph. Really?
That's insane. I read in another article that the force upon impact would be similiar to egtting hit by a minivan moving at Mach 5. That's... hundreds of thousands of poudns of force I'm sure. More. Much, much more.
That's a little mind-boggling, to be honest.
Jaeh.is.Awesome
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The countries that do defect to the imperials will probably be small, third world countries that wouldn't really help the imperials that much.
But seriously, some Star Wars tech is actually LESS advanced than modern tech: how come the Star Wars computers look like computers from the 50s (big, bulky with cheesy buttons)?
because the movie was made decades ago?
Hewhoknowsall
So you're saying that 20 stormtroopers lost vs 3 guys isn't valid because "the force intervened?" In that case, AOTC Anakin and Obi Wan only lost to Dooku (aside from Anakin's stupidity) because "the force intervened". And even if the force was making the blasters miss, the stormtroopers NEVER even bothered to re adust their aim even when they know that they're not hitting the target. Also, how far forward tech wise is Star Wars exactly? Because here are some facts:
1. Blasters still have just as much recoil as modern weapons, even though they're supposed to be super advanced (and you'd except it to have some tech that reduces/stops recoil)
2. Blasters have similar, if not lower range than modern weapons.
3. Blasters have a SLOWER rate of fire than modern weapons.
4. Despite being a "super advanced sci fi weapon", blasters don't feature fancy targeting systems or shoot-around-corner abilities that many modern/in development guns already have.
5. Despite being "super advanced sci fi armor", stormtrooper armor doesn't feature fancy exoskeletons (which armor in development plans to implement), navigation/communications systems (other than a comlink, and modern suits have more advanced stuff), life support systems (or at least not that much), etc.
6. Their AT STs get tripped by stone age traps (why do they use walkers? They're really vulnerable) and their lasers seem to have little targeting capability and their range is lower than that of an Abrams.
etc...
AND, there's only 500,000 of them. SERIOUS supply problems, navigation problems (they have no maps or anything) and the fact that they are facing an entire world, some nations with nuclear weapons, etc.
Borbarad
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So you're saying that 20 stormtroopers lost vs 3 guys isn't valid because "the force intervened?" In that case, AOTC Anakin and Obi Wan only lost to Dooku (aside from Anakin's stupidity) because "the force intervened". And even if the force was making the blasters miss, the stormtroopers NEVER even bothered to re adust their aim even when they know that they're not hitting the target.
I wonder where you have seen 20 Stormtroopers losing against one guy? In most situations where the Stormtroopers face the heroes of the movie, they do so with lack of cover, while getting surprised or there are other circumstances clearly not factoring in for them. Do you really think that ANH Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and Chewbacca could survive if you let them face 20 stormtroopers on an open field that will start fire at the same second they do? I don't think so.
Where did you get that idea from? Given the far greater destructive ability of blaster weapons it's evident that they don't generate as much recoil as modern day weapons. And I've yet to see a blaster generating any considerable recoil. Han holds his weapon (which clearly has some nice destructive ability) easily with his arm extended and fires rather precise shots with a nice rate.
In fact, it has been stated that one can handle a DC-15A on rapid fire at normal power without worrying about the recoil influencing the aim. And this is a heavy blaster rifle.
Bullshit. HK-47 in KotoR claims that he has shot "meatbags" from a distance of several kilometers. The standard rifle of the Imperial Stormtroopers (E-11) has an effective range of 300 metres. The DC-15A used by the clonetroopers has an effective range of 10 kilometers at full power. There you go.
That obviously depends on the weapon being used. Aside of that: The general rule is that you sacrifice accuracy for higher rate of fire, which isn't much of an advantage when fighting against enemies that armor would not be penetrated by your weapons anyway.
Excuse me. How many general used guns already have such targeting systems or shoot-around-corner abilities? And how would that be an advantage to weapons that can shoot through walls? That aside: E-11 blasters have scopes as well as targeting sensors. Did you somehow miss that?
Somebody should do his f*cking homework.
READ ME
Oh. What's that?
- automatic anti-flash blinding lenses
- holographic vision processors (enabling them to see through smoke, darkness, fire)
- a targeting system
- automatic video recording of everything the stormtrooper sees
- comlink that automatically encrypts the talk
- breathing filters
- air-support (+ heat/cold regulation) allowing stormtroopers to even survive underwater and in outer space for brief time periods.
You were saying?
Right. You maybe first want to check the effective weapon ranges of SW weapons before opening your mouth again. Then you could spent some seconds with actual thinking. There is a reason why it says "All Terrain" - because those vehicles can climb mountains and find their way over and around obstacles a regular tank wouldn't be able to cross. And of course those things are built to be intimitading.
Right. Let's make that scenario as biased as possible because of - oh...I don't know. Probably not having an idea about the SW universe?
They can scan entire planets in the matter of seconds, even with their goddamn fighters (as Luke demonstrates in ESB when visiting Dagobah for the first time). So obviously they won't have much navigation problems in a somewhat "realistical" settings, because they would either scan everything before landing or start doing it after having landed.
Supply problems? If you've ever read "Children of the Jedi" you would be aware of the fact that there were stormtroopers surviving on hostile planets for decades with the stuff they usually carried around with them. And I'm talking about planets where they won't stumble across supply sources every few kilometers.
And nuclear weapons? Mentioning them does actually imply that one would drop a nuclear weapon on an invading force in some completely innocent country. I don't think that something like that would happen. And even if that should be the case, they could shot down the missles / aircrafts or Vader could use the force to get rid of the rockets. While this already assuming that a nuclear weapon would be enough to destroy an AT-AT from the outside - which is speculation given the energy unleashed by usual SW vehicle weapons.
So I'm sorry. But even with your extreme biased setup (which is ridiculous), I don't see how the Imperials would not emerge victorious, considering that no army on Earth would be able to take it up with AT-ATs.
Hewhoknowsall
oops! wait...
Darth Truculent
Good God Bombarad - my God man you seriously do not know a thing about modern warfare! Do you actually think that grounds troops would run out of a city and surrender? Also you have ICBMs & SLBMS targeting your Star Destroyer.
Why need a thermal detenator when an RPG is far more destructive and has twice the range? Ooops - half a platoon of stormtroopers is either dead or wounded! Can't use a thermal detenator while pinned down. Can't throw it when a Marine is firing a SAW at you or a .50 caliber on a Bradley is hosing the area.
What's the modern tactic of war - kill the commander! Sniper takes him out and the entire platoon or company is disorganized. Oh yeah, a .50 caliber can blow a hole straight through steel armor. They tested it against a friggen Bradley Fighting Vehicle and blew up like a firework!
An Abrams tank without it's speed ristrictor plates can move 55 mph and destroy a target while moving at over 2 km. An AT-AT or AT-ST doesn't have that capability. Slow easy targets and a SABOT or HEAT round will penetrate it's armor. How the hell did Luke then kill an AT-AT with a damn grenade then? Think! And you seriously don't know the true capabilities of an F-22 - stealth technology. I wonder where the StealthX idea came from - F-22 maybe? Don't forget the AMRAAM missile - it's a fire and forget weapon that will kill you up to ranges of 20-30 miles. And it seems to me that you ignore cruise missiles too - interesting.
Royal Guard vs Special Forces. Easily Special Forces. They employ Krav Maga martial arts and can kill in a matter of seconds. You think a SEAL or a Ranger can't choke a guard out or simply break his neck? A modern special forces soldier is far superior to anything the Empire can produce. Consider a SEAL to be a minor league Mando soldier - that's what the Royal Guard would be facing. In a firefight, a stormtrooper would be facing far better trained soldier named the Marine. Nearly forgot too - I don't think the Empire has a M205 which fires a grenade either.
Sorry, but you're wrong again.
Darth Truculent
Bombarad - ever heard of tactical nukes?
Gideon
Truculent, stop being dense. It's a punishable offense here.
Darth Truculent
Just stating the technical aspects of earth weaponry Gideon and modern warfare. No offense meant.
SIDIOUS 66
I can't believe you guys are really comparing earth forces with a force that held an entire galaxy at bay.
As far as the royal guards, last i checked they were slightly force sensitive. Yep, that means they are faster than an ordinary human, and with a lot faster reflexs.
Eminence
500,000 stormtroopers and a hundred AT-ATs held no galaxy at bay.
SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Eminence
500,000 stormtroopers and a hundred AT-ATs held no galaxy at bay.
I was talking to Truculent. He is bringing up more than that. He is bringing in star destroyers and royal guards.
Hewhoknowsall
NO STAR DESTROYERS/AIR/SPACE SUPPORT FOR EMPIRE (AS SAID IN OPENING POST)
1. But they still have recoil, although I agree it's less than that of today.
2. I'm not a gun expert, but I'm pretty sure that modern guns can exceed 300 meters. And clone trooper equipment is irrelevant in this senerio.
3. but the point is that their guns aren't as fast firing as you'd except several hundreds years into the future guns to be; in just 200 years we went from 3 shots per minute to 1000 shots per minute, and technology tends to increase exponentially.
4. and yet they can't hit some guy right next to them?
5. then how come the stormtroopers couldn't use their high tech stuff to be able to actually (gasp!) hit Han, and to communicate w/each other/inform each other of the Ewok suprise attack? They must not know how to use their equipment.
6. Then why do they get tripped by ropes and almost knocked over by stone age catapults?
Borbarad
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Good God Bombarad - my God man you seriously do not know a thing about modern warfare! Do you actually think that grounds troops would run out of a city and surrender? Also you have ICBMs & SLBMS targeting your Star Destroyer.
Apparently you still didn't get a freaking idea about the SW technology. Which makes it quite hard for you to come up with a proper argument, considering you don't know what you're talking about. ICBMS and SLBMS targeting a Star Destroyer? Lmao. A Star Destroyer has an acceleration rate of over 3000 G and can reach lightspeed in seconds. Quite useless aiming weapons at that thing that can simply be outrun, right? That aside, a single Star Destroyer could destroy every bit of life on an entire planet in the matter of hours. They wouldn't even need to set a foot on the surface to own Earth.
How shoot at them, when they use rifles with an effective range up to 10 kilometres that will take out anything they hit with a single shot? Army leveled before even reaching effective firing range. You could do the same trick with artillary or every ground-troop you can imagine. And 4000 Stormtroopers (at least) can still have a seat in the AT-ATs and watch everything outside getting annihilated without getting touched.
Lmao. The commander, in this case, is Darth Vader. Let me just point out what that means: You have a guy capable of predicting the future, move with superhuman speed, crush entire platoons of your force with a simple gesture and he's virtually invunerable to an projectile based weapons (armor) and can dodge all "heavy fire" unleashed against him (or outright deflect it). Not to mention that he could, technically, kill all political and military leaders on the goddamn planet while sitting in a freaking cave using the force.
And for christs sake: STOP COMPARING SW ARMOR TO STEEL, TITAN, OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT EXISTS ON EARTH - IT'S NOT COMPAREABLE.
It won't work. Google "Durasteel", read, start crying.
That aside. The AT-ATs move with 60 km/h and are capable of hitting targets flying past them 570 km/h speed. Talk about precisions. And an Abrams would still do shit against AT-AT armor. Accept it.
Because he had a weapon in his hand that CUTS THROUGH EVERYTHING and he used that to cut a hole into the AT-AT and toss the thermal detonator through it. And you just noticed how the thing just starts smoking and doesn't explode, right? So the armor was still intact? Oh...great.
Holy mother of god. Get it into your head: The vehicle mounted weapons in the SW universe unleash more power than the entire USA produces. Every single one of them. Got that so far? Now imagine thousands of that being pointed at an army. No joke. A single shot from an AT-ATs main cannon tore a several story building apart. I don't want to imagine what it would do to an army of soldiers. The F-22 still doesn't have anything that could touch AT-AT armor. It's really that easy. They should at the things with the firepower mentioned multiple times now (again: Higher energy output in ten seconds than the entire USA produce in the same amount of time) and don't even scratch them.
So please: You can fling cruise missles as them, AMRAAM missles, heavy attilary and so on and so forth. It won't touch them. Why? Because they are crafted out of an material that isn't affected too much by physical force or heat. Which makes about every weapon pretty useless against it.
Since today seems to be the hayday of ridiculous arguments: "The Empire has Darth Vader. Nuff said..."
Hewhoknowsall
"when they use rifles with an effective range up to 10 kilometres that will take out anything they hit with a single shot"
This is the EMPIRE w/stormtroopers not clonetroopers. D15's weren't used by the empire!!!!
And STAR DESTROYERS AREN'T ALLOWED!!!! I specified that clearly on the first post. w/space navy, this would be a ridiculous spite.
And Vader's power is insignificant in the grand sceme of things: Vader can take AT MOST 100 men, so having Vader (in terms of sheer battle power/not command prowess) is like having +100 men, which is porportionally insignificant.
SIDIOUS 66
Windu can take out a lot more than 100 men, and Vader is stronger with the force. Vader can take out a lot more than that.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Windu can take out a lot more than 100 men, and Vader is stronger with the force. Vader can take out a lot more than that.
Even if he can take out 1000, that still means just +1000 men on top of 500,000. Again, proportionally insignificant.
Borbarad
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. But they still have recoil, although I agree it's less than that of today.
How is that relevant if it's so little recoil that it doesn't affect the aiming at all?
We're talking about regular small fire arms. The upper limit of range is 10 kilometers.
Good god. You should actually think about the intention behind the design of a weapon. They don't need fast firing weapons because their weapon will simply kill anything with a single shot and have destructive abilities capable of ripping tanks apart when hitting them. Really. You won't find a hand-helt weapon with similar destructive abilities and a greater firing rate.
Not to mention that they have guns that have quite nice fire rates (play Dark Forces or the other games featuring Kyle Katarn).
They can't hit the protagonists standing right next to them. Watch the opening scene of "Episode IV" where the Stormtroopers enter the Rebel ship. They wipe out the repel soldiers with acceptable casualities in the matter of seconds, despite of the fact that they had to move through a small opening when the Rebel Soldiers all had covered positions. Apparently, they can be rather good when not having to deal with characters that are not allowed to die.
See above. It's because the story had to develop as it did. Plot Induced Stupidity - PIS. We ignore that in terms of VS fights here.
See above again. It happens, because the plot has to end in a certain manner. Under realistical circumstances, stuff like that simply won't happen.
Borbarad
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
This is the EMPIRE w/stormtroopers not clonetroopers. D15's weren't used by the empire!!!!
The Empire uses similar weapons, which is obvious if you would have a look at the troopers running around on Tatooine at the beginning of ANH.
I was simply replying to him.
This is by all account stupid. Vader could easily redirect incoming missles / projectiles and even nuclear weapons. If not that he could toss tank and troops across the battlefield with his telekinesis. So, virtually, Vader could personally cause death of thousands or even millions of enemies using his abilities correctly. And even if he would just walk over the battlefield. How the hell do you want to kill him? Exar Kun in the DLotS comics walks over a battlefield "unharmed by shrapnel and fire" without even paying much attention to the surrounding chaos. Freedon Nadd apparently singlehandly stopped an army of beast riders attempting to conquer Onderon.
Those Dark Lord of the Sith can cause some major trouble in combat. Even if they have to rely on their own abilities and are heavily outnumbered.
Eminence
Yoda struggled to redirect a two-hundred kilogram missile in DR. A nuclear bomb weighs... a lot more than two hundred kilograms, and will probably be moving at somewhat comparable speeds. Assuming Vader actually knows there's one coming - which is arguably unlikely considering he'd be protecting himself from infantry fire, artillery, and aircraft strikes - a nuclear bomb will completely annihilate everything within a several-mile range and cause significant damage even further out.
Then of course, we take into account that there are several thousand nuclear bombs available to humans, and I see the Imperials getting wiped off the map. The idea that America or Russia would refuse to launch attacks on their own soil in the face of what would otherwise be defeat and subjugation at the hands of the aggressors is a tad ridiculous; collateral damage could easily be minimized by simply stopping the Imperials before they could kill "millions," as you said Vader alone could do.
That said, the thread starter needs to provide way more details. Troop organization, awareness level of Earthlings, etc. It's not enough to just list combatants here, you need to provide a scenario.
Hewhoknowsall
So whenever the stormtroopers lose, it's because of PIS? In that case, the stormtroopers get pwned by us earthlings because we have to survive by god's will, and the stormtroopers are so wise that they realize that and magically become stupid.
In other words, using PIS as an excuse to when ever stormtroopers get pwned is a little bit absurd. The AT ST also almost got knocked over by a catapult, and aparently that scene was intended to show off the empire and have them walk all over the ewoks, and yet the catapult still makes it stumble. That's clearly not PIS because the scene didn't have any significant impact on the story (but that doesn't make it any less credible).
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Eminence
That said, the thread starter needs to provide way more details. Troop organization, awareness level of Earthlings, etc. It's not enough to just list combatants here, you need to provide a scenario.
OK:
the troops are well organized, but know very little about the earth (why they didn't scan it in space? IDK)
Humans instantly are aware of the imperials and the threat they pose. And they also know about their strengths and weaknesses, given that at least one of the leaders had read/seen Star Wars.
Imperials are dropped off in the middle of Mexico.
Troops have a large supply of food/fuel/etc. enough to last them a journey from USA to South America
Troops get 50 AA guns, no more.
No air/space support at all.
Jaeh.is.Awesome
people factor: i don't think that people here on earth would just randomly nuke them without consdering the threat of the nukes to the earth's environment itself. think of all the political protests, procedures, etc.
oh, and the leader: how much of star wars does he know? i mean, i'm a fan, but half of what you guys type here i don't know about... so how much knowledge of SW would the leader have?
CadoAngelus
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
troops seem to be more accurate...
we're well and truly ****ed...
Borbarad
Originally posted by Eminence
Yoda struggled to redirect a two-hundred kilogram missile in DR. A nuclear bomb weighs... a lot more than two hundred kilograms, and will probably be moving at somewhat comparable speeds.
You aren't talking about the missle that was launched from the orbit directed at the ground? The fun stuff about Nuclear Missles that would be fired on Earth to hit another spot on the Earth is that they would fly in a ballistic course and not straigth down from the orbit to the AT-ATs.
And where did Yoda struggle with that thing?
I'd love to see your proof for a nuclear bomb being able to destroy durasteel. Pretty unlikely, if you ask me, considering that weapons with a higher total energy output with the energy being directed to one spot fail to do the job.
They would at first spot a relative small army (compared to their own forces) and attack it via conventional means. Which might already be enough. I mean what: Vader looks at a TV, sees the President of the USA or Russia and force chockes him to death - or even better: He waves his hand, says "You won't use your military against us and will surrender while letting us assume control over your country", just to listen to his words being repeated by the force controlled puppet the leader has become. Think about Exar Kun dealing with the Republic's Chancellor.
@Hewhoknowsnothing:
Irrelevant. They have scanners on the ground vessels. Or do you want to tell us that they aren't allowed to use them either, because you really don't want to lose this "debate"?
They have no weaknesses that could be exploited via means available to humans. And for god's sake. Why don't you equip humanity with more advantages and limit the Imperials further - if you want to turn a battle into a farce, do it correctly.
They don't need fuel and they can steal food everywhere.
AA guns? What does qualify as anti-aircraft weapon according to your point of view?
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
OK:
the troops are well organized, but know very little about the earth (why they didn't scan it in space? IDK)
Humans instantly are aware of the imperials and the threat they pose. And they also know about their strengths and weaknesses, given that at least one of the leaders had read/seen Star Wars.
Imperials are dropped off in the middle of Mexico.
Troops have a large supply of food/fuel/etc. enough to last them a journey from USA to South America
Troops get 50 AA guns, no more.
No air/space support at all. That still isn't very detailed.
First, if Star Wars exists as a fictional universe on Earth, why would it now be real? People would freak out less at the Second Coming.
Even so, are all the military's on Earth fully mobilized at the very instant the Imperials start attacking? If that's the case, f*ck it--we're nuking Mexico.
Are all 500,000 stormtroopers the standard trooper we see all the time, or are there divisions---snipers, heavy weapons, demolitions, engineers etc. Battlefront-style?
WHICH troops have a large supply of food, WHICH troops get no air support etc? By the way, a "large supply" of food/fuel etc will get the Imperials much further than across just one continent.
Will the human psyche play a role in this scenario, or are we going to be operating under the assumption that, like robots, we're all fighting to the death?
And expanding on my first problem, why the hell does Earth have such an intricate knowledge of Star Wars but the invaders have squat on us? This makes it sound like your purposefully engineering the Empire to fail---which incidentally is what you've been gunning for this whole time.
Borbarad
Sorry...did forget that one:
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So whenever the stormtroopers lose, it's because of PIS? In that case, the stormtroopers get pwned by us earthlings because we have to survive by god's will, and the stormtroopers are so wise that they realize that and magically become stupid.
No. In some situations they get defeated in a "likely" fashion. One should be able to tell the diffrence between realistical approach to a scene and absurd storytelling. When Han Solo runs into a room filled with Storm Troopers (literally hundrets) and manages to run away, one should be able to spot that this is so absurd that you won't see it happening under any normal circumstances.
In the opening sequence of RotS you can see a kitchen sink flying through space...Lucas simply has a strange kind of humor. As I said before: If something like that would happen on a daily basis, the Imperial forces would find it rather hard to rule an entire Galaxy, right?
Lord Lucien
Seriously, a kitchen sink? I have to go find that now.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That still isn't very detailed.
First, if Star Wars exists as a fictional universe on Earth, why would it now be real? People would freak out less at the Second Coming.
Even so, are all the military's on Earth fully mobilized at the very instant the Imperials start attacking? If that's the case, f*ck it--we're nuking Mexico.
Are all 500,000 stormtroopers the standard trooper we see all the time, or are there divisions---snipers, heavy weapons, demolitions, engineers etc. Battlefront-style?
WHICH troops have a large supply of food, WHICH troops get no air support etc? By the way, a "large supply" of food/fuel etc will get the Imperials much further than across just one continent.
Will the human psyche play a role in this scenario, or are we going to be operating under the assumption that, like robots, we're all fighting to the death?
And expanding on my first problem, why the hell does Earth have such an intricate knowledge of Star Wars but the invaders have squat on us? This makes it sound like your purposefully engineering the Empire to fail---which incidentally is what you've been gunning for this whole time.
Who knows? It's just a hypothetical battle, like everything in this forum.
All nations are at the same state that they are now, so no.
Yes, but no super divisions/dark troopers.
All troops have equal food, 100% NO air/space support
Yes, but they don't instantly surrender by seeing the empire, so partially
OK then, they have SOME knowledge of the earth, but don't know every city and street number.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Borbarad
Sorry...did forget that one:
No. In some situations they get defeated in a "likely" fashion. One should be able to tell the diffrence between realistical approach to a scene and absurd storytelling. When Han Solo runs into a room filled with Storm Troopers (literally hundrets) and manages to run away, one should be able to spot that this is so absurd that you won't see it happening under any normal circumstances.
In the opening sequence of RotS you can see a kitchen sink flying through space...Lucas simply has a strange kind of humor. As I said before: If something like that would happen on a daily basis, the Imperial forces would find it rather hard to rule an entire Galaxy, right?
The stormtroopers beating the rebels in that scene could just be PIS cause the stormies have to win in order for R2D2 to go to tatooine and the rescue Leia thing.
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Who knows? It's just a hypothetical battle, like everything in this forum.
All nations are at the same state that they are now, so no.
Yes, but no super divisions/dark troopers.
All troops have equal food, 100% NO air/space support
Yes, but they don't instantly surrender by seeing the empire, so partially
OK then, they have SOME knowledge of the earth, but don't know every city and street number. Better. Sorta.
No nation will attack land so close to the U.S without the U.S. doing it first. And the U.S. will never resort to DEFCON 1 without believing there's no hope (even then, Jesus Obama won't obliterate his people simply because they're conquered). Which means they're entire military capacity has been nullified. Given that Earth has no air support, the ground troops will be vaporized along with every city the Imperials encounter. Then, MAYBE then, the Chinese or Russians might nuke the U.S. Vader won't catch 'em all---and the fallout/shock wave from the ones he misses will kill them. Seriously wish we knew the exact limitations of durasteel.
Oh but if Vader does manage to convince world leaders to secede power...
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Better. Sorta.
No nation will attack land so close to the U.S without the U.S. doing it first. And the U.S. will never resort to DEFCON 1 without believing there's no hope (even then, Jesus Obama won't obliterate his people simply because they're conquered). Which means they're entire military capacity has been nullified. Given that Earth has no air support, the ground troops will be vaporized along with every city the Imperials encounter. Then, MAYBE then, the Chinese or Russians might nuke the U.S. Vader won't catch 'em all---and the fallout/shock wave from the ones he misses will kill them. Seriously wish we knew the exact limitations of durasteel.
Oh but if Vader does manage to convince world leaders to secede power...
The earthlings have air, not imperials. I was referring to the imperials (yes it is fair given the imperials' weapons advantage)
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The earthlings have air, not imperials. I was referring to the imperials (yes it is fair given the imperials' weapons advantage) Ah. Specifications at last.
Now what ARE these AA devices of the Imperials' in your mind?
Final Blaxican
Originally posted by Borbarad]
@Blaxican:
I just can say: ROFL.
An F-22 is more heavily armed than a snowspeeder? Did you miss what I said about the laser weapons that the people in the SW universe mount on their fighters? Apparently you did...
CLICK ME
Let me quote:
"If we assume that the bolt strikes a target for 1/10 second, each cannon directs 600 GW to a target. Since this estimate is conservative, an X-Wing's blaster cannons easily release more energy in 10 seconds than the entire United States produces in electrical power. This is especially impressive when one considers the number of nuclear power plants in operation in the United States."
You were saying? So a single SW universe starfighter unleashes more energy in the form of firepower in ten seconds than the entire USA produce? Given that a snowspeeder only has 50 % of the weapons you can assume 1/2 of that energy output. I'd love to see the F-22 that has more firepower. And I love to see how they would touch an AT-AT given that this amount of firepower doesn't even touch the damn thing.
And because of that, I also said that your "knock them over" plan wouldn't work. We see the snowspeeders firing at the AT-ATs with charged plasma moving close to speed of light (so kinetical and explosive energy beyond anything you could produce with a modern day weapon) and nothing happens. There was a reason why the rebels had to use those cables.
That aside: The F-22s wouldn't even last 5 minutes, given the fact that the Imperials have handhelt concussion missle launchers / photon torpedo launchers.
Finally: You should all get your facts straight and don't try to discuss this topic based on the lower end showings of the Imperial military that spawn from the fact, that the story had to end in a certain way. The Empire conquered thousands of worlds with the very same military forces that look rather stupid in the movies - a fact that is more often than not explained through additional material, which one should check out before attempting to discuss the issue.
Stardestroyer.net?
No. Try again. The fact that he himself has stated that his figures are only based on rough estimations based on rough observations, your entire argument is thrown out of whack. Canon statements please. Glentract math holds no relevence in this topic. And no, his supposed degrees in Physics and the like has absolutely no bearing on the fact that he's still just some random dude not even working for Lucas who is ultimately getting his estimates off of what he can visually see and hear in the movies. Thus, your source sucks, and I'm not trying to be a dick, or hostile or condescending, but that's just what's up man.
Eminence
Originally posted by Borbarad
You aren't talking about the missle that was launched from the orbit directed at the ground? The fun stuff about Nuclear Missles that would be fired on Earth to hit another spot on the Earth is that they would fly in a ballistic course and not straigth down from the orbit to the AT-ATs.The fact that the US has access to nuclear weapons weighing between 5,000 and 18,000 kilograms (up to ninety times as much as the missile over Vjun) offsets much of the likely difference in speed, since a nuclear warhead-carrying ICBM can still impact at over 14,000 kilometers per hour. I don't want to go Glentract on you and get into a mathematical breakdown of SW though, so I'll leave it at that.
However, see below for an explanation of the implausibility of the idea that Vader is single-handedly going to be stopping nuclear weapons left and right.
My mistake; I rushed through the post. Here's the relevant piece of the passage, anyway:He ends up redirecting it a kilometer off course with a shove. One missile, two hundred kilograms, and he was told by Dooku that it was coming. Vader will apparently be a.) owning millions of soldiers, tanks, and aircraft, or b.) choking or mind-controlling Obama.
The inconsistency and general simplicity of the SWU sort of ruin your attempts at scientific analysis here. I could point out that your "near lightspeed" argument would also apply to handheld blaster weaponry. Packets of plasma supposedly moving near the speed of light would apparently (according to you) have kinetic energy output far beyond anything we could match or deal with. Yet Leia is grazed by a blaster bolt and gets nothing more than a negligible burn. Mace Windu has a "chunk" taken out of his leg by a blaster hit that apparently doesn't stop him from sprinting, fighting, and skydiving through half of Shatterpoint.
Not to mention that when starships crafted out of durasteel crash into things, they sort of crumple and explode. High speed impact > Nukes? Mace Windu punches holes through durasteel. Mace Windu's fists > Nukes?
I don't understand why I actually have to explain this to you, but real world science cannot be reasonably and effectively applied to SW tech given everything we see and deal with in both the movies and EU. It simply doesn't work.
Yeah... I really don't get how Vader is going to fend off (5000 kg+) nuclear bombs and knock all of them far enough off course that half a million infantry and a few hundred units of armor are completely unharmed by them, slaughter millions of soldiers, and mind-control multiple world leaders without ever having any sort of contact with them or knowledge of their location, all at the same time, especially considering he's never once demonstrated the ability to do any of those individually.
Final Blaxican
And just to add to that last part, when Vader chocked Ozzel, Ozzel was on the same ship as he was, just on the Bridge, so they were only a bit more or less than a mile apart. Vader's never shown the ability to directly influence someone with the force over very much more than that, aside from Luke whom was his son and they shared a special bond anyways. Thus, choking Obama would be very difficult if not impossible.
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
And just to add to that last part, when Vader chocked Ozzel, Ozzel was on the same ship as he was, just on the Bridge, so they were only a bit more or less than a mile apart. Vader's never shown the ability to directly influence someone with the force over very much more than that, aside from Luek whom was his son and they shared a special bond anyways. Thus, choking Obama would be very difficult. He choked the Governor of Reytha despite him not being present. Though exactly how far away he was... *shrugs*
And I forgot: if Yoda can't stop a 200 kilo missile, then what's up with the "Yoda can lift a mountain" thing?
Final Blaxican
Eh? Didn't know about that one. Which book did that happen in?
Lord Lucien
Ever played Galactic Battlegrounds? One of my first SW games.
Game mechanics aside, the events in the campaign are part of the continuity, but it's a 2001 RTS, so the depth of field isn't exactly the most accurate. Still though, Antes Beladar wasn't present when he was choked.
SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
And just to add to that last part, when Vader chocked Ozzel, Ozzel was on the same ship as he was, just on the Bridge, so they were only a bit more or less than a mile apart. Vader's never shown the ability to directly influence someone with the force over very much more than that, aside from Luke whom was his son and they shared a special bond anyways. Thus, choking Obama would be very difficult if not impossible.
Don't forget gripping Xizor, who was lightyears away from Vader.
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Don't forget gripping Xizor, who was lightyears away from Vader. Lol, I had meant to bring that up. You were such a fervent supporter of that event.
Final Blaxican
Was he really?
I could have sworn I had hallucinated that part... mmm
Well, **** it then.
SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He choked the Governor of Reytha despite him not being present. Though exactly how far away he was... *shrugs*
And I forgot: if Yoda can't stop a 200 kilo missile, then what's up with the "Yoda can lift a mountain" thing?
When did Yoda lift a mountain?
Lord Lucien
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When did Yoda lift a mountain? I dunno. But I've heard it said here before, usually when discussing TK feats.
Elite Hunter
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I dunno. But I've heard it said here before, usually when discussing TK feats.
I believe it's in one of the old cw cartoons, which I haven't seen in a long time and I'm pretty sure it was like the mountain's peak or smaller.
Borbarad
Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Stardestroyer.net?
No. Try again. The fact that he himself has stated that his figures are only based on rough estimations based on rough observations, your entire argument is thrown out of whack. Canon statements please. Glentract math holds no relevence in this topic. And no, his supposed degrees in Physics and the like has absolutely no bearing on the fact that he's still just some random dude not even working for Lucas who is ultimately getting his estimates off of what he can visually see and hear in the movies. Thus, your source sucks, and I'm not trying to be a dick, or hostile or condescending, but that's just what's up man.
You don't have to try being a dick because you simply don't know what you're talkinga bout. Those figures are extremely generous estimations dirived from the interpretation of things shown on screen and the man is - canonically - absolutely right when it comes to his turbolaser commentaries (the energy output of the Executor he came up with happens to be cannon figure now which can be found in sourcebooks). Yeah...he must be completely wrong, despite the fact that every bit of evidence available supports his claims and despite the fact that LFL apparently ninjas some figures he had come up with. Despite of that, he somehow sucks as source...
@Faunus:
Oh excuse me. How damn hard is it to change the direction of a weapon with a ballistic movement. Apparently you haven't got the point. The missle fired at Yoda was speed up in a straight line from the orbit down to the planets' surface with such speed that even Yoda could just move it's actual impact point a kilometre away from the original one. If you slightly alter the direction of a missle aimed at you in a ballistic fashion, the result can be more devastating. Notice how Yoda had problems with the speed of the thing and not with it's raw weight.
You could point that out, and then you would be called off by me for not paying attention. The hand-helt blaster rifles obviously don't generate projectiles moving with that kind of speed - this seems to be reserved for heavier guns.
Urm. Crash into things? What "things" are you talking about? Ships constructed out of the same space age material? That with speed close to c? Yeah. That would be about right. And Mace is just capable of performing that feat due to his Shatterpoint ability. The man could also crush Corusca Gems by merely touching them. That doesn't mean that his fingers > 15 KG sledge-hammers.
This is great. You can take incidents from the movies or the EU and transport them into Reallife. Sorry. Those statements are apparently put there for a reason. You don't like it - not my problem. But I can make it more general. We're talking about a universe in which:
- Titanium is used as cheap and compareably weak material for the mass production of TIE Fighters for example.
- ship hulls are generally able to take sustained bombardment from energy weapons firing charged plasma at them
- miniature suns are used to power up capital ships, which turns modern day energy production into a joke (and they can contain and control them)
- metal in general takes enormous stress, heat, cold and so on, without much being done to the actual material.
Despite of that, you still think they are anywhere compareable to modern day military?...
How about reading and thinking before replying. Why would anybody bother to drop multiple nuclear bombs on a single army at a single location, huh? That limits the possible amounts of warheads Vader has to deflect to - one at any given time? Which was just an example of what Vader might be able to do. He has a freaking army of vehicles that could simply vaporize such a missle in air without problem.
If one of them is even going to be fired. I mean - what the hell. The threadstarter has defined that SW exists as franchise in the world that is about to be invaded. Just imagine your reaction if a freaking AT-AT stands in your garden. I'd say the ability of logical reasoning would escape you for quite some time, having the technological monstrosities of a fictional universe popping up in your country.
I'd say those people would have to cope with mass panic or with people try to see their "heroes" in action rather then bothering with thinking about a way to get rid of them in a military sense.
By dropping the mentioned nuclear warhead right into them, in case that line of thought wasn't obvious.
Can it be that there was a reason for me mentioning a TV? That would give Vader contact, information about their political position and the ability to focus on them. Right. And again this was just some random example, I tossed into here without care because the entire thread simply sucks.
Jaeh.is.Awesome
.....question: is biological warfare allowed in here?
because if we just send them some strain of disease that they don't have any immunization to that could kill them in a snap...
they'll be screwd. even vaer... *shrug*
Jaeh.is.Awesome
*screwed and *vader
...darned typos
GenomeFrozener
I would join the Empire with haste.
Hewhoknowsall
Vader's "jedi" mind trick probably won't work: I'm pretty sure (or at least I, and everyone else should hope) that most of the major leaders are at least somewhat strong willed.
And screw physics. You wanna count physics? OK then. From now on, this fight takes physics into account.
It has been proven (by common sense mostly) that you can't you "the force" to move objects. Vader's screwed.
PIS is not real in physics, so the stormtroopers really are that stupid.
The use of faster than light travel is (in current physics) impossible, as are lightsabers (Vader's more screwed).
Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
that most of the major leaders are at least somewhat strong willed.
That's hilarious.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
That's hilarious.
Even if they weren't, physics prevents Vader from using "the force" so yeah Vader gets killed by a sniper. Then, one nuke comes and destroys the entire army (which Vader if he was alive couldn't prevent because "the force" isn't with him).
And ROFL at whoever said that durasteel is immune to nuclear weapons. If so, then the Juggernaut that can generate firepower on par with a nuke isn't as tough as it looks and won't be able to destroy even the simplest of vehicles. Heck it won't even be able to damage a building made of durasteel.
Gideon
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Even if they weren't, physics prevents Vader from using "the force" so yeah Vader gets killed by a sniper. Then, one nuke comes and destroys the entire army.
And ROFL at whoever said that durasteel is immune to nuclear weapons. If so, then the Juggernaut that can generate firepower on par with a nuke isn't as tough as it looks and won't be able to destroy even the simplest of vehicles. Heck it won't even be able to damage a building made of durasteel.
How is physics going to stop Vader? Because it's somehow going to work here whereas it doesn't in the Star Wars mythos?
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Gideon
How is physics going to stop Vader? Because it's somehow going to work here whereas it doesn't in the Star Wars mythos?
Borbarad keeps on referencing physics so I guess (according to him) that is a credible source for this, right? So the force is obviously physically impossible. Heck, Vader is impossible; how to you get born wo/a father?? So the stormtroopers will be leaderless and then will get disorganized and will fight over control...
Gideon
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Borbarad keeps on referencing physics so I guess (according to him) that is a credible source for this, right? So the force is obviously physically impossible. Heck, Vader is impossible; how to you get born wo/a father?? So the stormtroopers will be leaderless and then will get disorganized and will fight over control...
Obviously, for the sake of the versus match, Vader gets to use the Force and clearly must exist.
And don't reference "born w/o father." You'll have Christians kicking the shit out of you before your next post.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Gideon
Obviously, for the sake of the versus match, Vader gets to use the Force and clearly must exist.
And don't reference "born w/o father." You'll have Christians kicking the shit out of you before your next post.
I'm not a Christian so don't be angry if I'm wrong, but isn't Jesus's father God? Vader on the other hand has NO father at all.
And what I'm trying to say is that physics other than very basic ones can't be mentioned in a universe with magical superhumans that can move objects.
Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Borbarad keeps on referencing physics so I guess (according to him) that is a credible source for this, right? So the force is obviously physically impossible. Heck, Vader is impossible; how to you get born wo/a father?? So the stormtroopers will be leaderless and then will get disorganized and will fight over control...
Then most of the stormtroopers will be gone too. A lot of them were clones, and cloning that perfect on such a scale is impossible.
Earth and physics FTW !
Gideon
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I'm not a Christian so don't be angry if I'm wrong, but isn't Jesus's father God?
You're not a Christian? Yikes. Forget the trajectory of your immortal soul, but KMC is definitely a puritan state. We destroy nonbelievers!
Kidding.
Maybe.
Vader's father is the Force (or indirectly Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious ). As in the case with Christ, God didn't manifest human form and bang the shit out of Mary. He just arranged it to be so.
Physics still apply to the non superhumans.
Hewhoknowsall
Back on topic:
An Abrams can take out an AT ST (a catapult almost made is stumble AND THAT WASN'T PIS BECAUSE IT DIDN'T CHANGE THE PLOT IN ANY WAY AND WAS JUST AN INSIGNIFICANT SCENE but that doesn't make it any less credible).
3 soldiers (we'll HEAVILY outnumber them) can shoot a stormtrooper and "knock him down" and then charge at him, tackle him to the ground, pin his arms/take his weapon, take off his helmet and then shoot him.
Their AA guns are the same ones used by the CIS in Battlefront 2 Grevious mission (where you have to beatl Grevious).
There's only 50 of the AA, so yeah swarm them with several hundred bombers and watch the fireworks.
AT ATs can be distracted by jets (they can barely hit snowspeeders that go way slower) and then just tie a big rope around them. Or, air drop a squad on top of them and shoot the drivers
Nephthys
Ben beat a space-ship with a rock. awermm
Just throwin' that in there for all the people going with the "Advanced tech is haxorzz!!!1!!!duroll
Hewhoknowsall
And about PIS, if the stormtroopers not hitting guys right in front of them is PIS, then the stormtroopers are afftected by PIS 90% of the time they fight.
Eminence
I had two-thirds of a rebuttal for you Nai, but I decided a prolonged argument wasn't worth the effort. You aren't going to acknowledge my argument regarding the plausibility of applying real-world science to a universe as completely nonsensical as the SWU, your arguments regarding Vader surviving all at once] are absurd on a level that hurts my brain, and you're apparently already getting worked up.
Not to mention that this thread has been ridiculous from the start. Half a million stormtroopers and a few hundred units armor logs] would get obliterated, especially since the thread starter has stacked the odds as far as intel, air support, and resources go.
Gideon
Careful. Janus may revoke your membership.
Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Eminence
I had two-thirds of a rebuttal for you Nai, but I decided a prolonged argument wasn't worth the effort. You aren't going to acknowledge my argument regarding the plausibility of applying real-world science to a universe as completely nonsensical as the SWU, your arguments regarding Vader surviving all at once] are absurd on a level that hurts my brain, and you're apparently already getting worked up.
Not to mention that this thread has been ridiculous from the start. Half a million stormtroopers and a few hundred units armor logs] would get obliterated, especially since the thread starter has stacked the odds as far as intel, air support, and resources go.
If this is a spite, then why do 8 people think that the empire will win? Technically, the Empire has far superior tech, but sometimes that's just no true.
Another thing to point out is that you rarely see the Empire using stuff like smart bombs and such. In fact, Star Wars weapons/battles just look "cheesy" in comparison.
And oh yeah, I forgot about the swinging logs part. Makes AT-STs even more ridiculous.
BTW, who's Nai?
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