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Which team do you think will win?

I think team 1 wins this.

Raziel and Kain.. Sephiroth and cloud are very overhyped.

Team 2...probably.

Team 2. Kain absorbs Raziel and solos.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Team 2. Kain absorbs Raziel and solos.

Cloud and Seph...

team 2. raziel takes the reavers and shoves them up the Overrated Sephiroth's ass

Originally posted by I am who I am
Cloud and Seph... please. justify your claim

Originally posted by Phanteros
please. justify your claim

Cloud would take Raziel without a second thought, and Sephiroths TK feats > Kains TK feats.

wtf, Cloud has nothing on Raz and Tk isnt going ot be the winner of this match, Kain has vastly more powers than that and vastly more powers to escape TK as well.

Originally posted by Burning thought
wtf, Cloud has nothing on Raz and Tk isnt going ot be the winner of this match, Kain has vastly more powers than that and vastly more powers to escape TK as well.


Fine, Cloud could at least keep Raziel busy, with his swordsmanship, speed, strength and some materia.

Sephiroth while Cloud was keeping Raz busy, would stop Kain from moving and slice him in half from a mile away. What could Kain do to escape TK?

Sephiroth then finishes off Raziel with Cloud.

Originally posted by K1ll3r
Fine, Cloud could at least keep Raziel busy, with his swordsmanship, speed, strength and some materia.

Sephiroth while Cloud was keeping Raz busy, would stop Kain from moving and slice him in half from a mile away. What could Kain do to escape TK?

Sephiroth then finishes off Raziel with Cloud. no raziel can turn invisable and finish them off

My friend said to mention "W-Summon + Quad Magic + Mime" or something for the FF guys.

Does that mean anything to anyone?

Raziel will return, lol. Besides, he would switch to the Spiritual world...and back.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
My friend said to mention "W-Summon + Quad Magic + Mime" or something for the FF guys.

Does that mean anything to anyone?

Gameplay mechanics:

W-Summon: Allows you to cast two summons in one turn.
Quad Magic: Does attached materia 4 times.
Mime: Does the last action.

W-Summon + Qaudra Magic + Mime = (2 X (Summon X 4) Then it can be mimed for 0 mana, not the most overpowered combo in FF 7.


Originally posted by Phanteros
no raziel can turn invisable and finish them off

Sephiroth brings an Illusion down that he dies randomly, then Sephiroth rips apart Kain with TK, but creates an Illusion that Kain is still there, then when Raziel kills Cloud, he rips apart Raziel with TK.

Originally posted by Gumachi
Raziel will return, lol. Besides, he would switch to the Spiritual world...and back.

What exactly do you mean by return? What would switching to the spiritual world and back achieve?

Originally posted by K1ll3r
Fine, Cloud could at least keep Raziel busy, with his swordsmanship, speed, strength and some materia.

Sephiroth while Cloud was keeping Raz busy, would stop Kain from moving and slice him in half from a mile away. What could Kain do to escape TK?

Sephiroth then finishes off Raziel with Cloud.

Hes not even that fast tbh, hes not as much as a speed blitzer as Sephiroth and his strength and swordmanship are useless against a being whos single slash would rip your soul out and can turn into a spirit and back in moments, keep in mind that lets just assume somehow Cloud got the other hand, Raziel ends up cleaved in two, all he ends up doing is shifting back to the material world.

Kain could turn into mist or teleport, Sephiroth cannot hold mist wheras Kain can control it AND blood cells, he would just spray jenova cells all over the place and turn Sephiroth into nothing more than a gory cloud of cells.

Infact Kain could just cast lightning, that would finish off a lot of the characters in this match straight off the bat.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Hes not even that fast tbh, hes not as much as a speed blitzer as Sephiroth and his strength and swordmanship are useless against a being whos single slash would rip your soul out and can turn into a spirit and back in moments, keep in mind that lets just assume somehow Cloud got the other hand, Raziel ends up cleaved in two, all he ends up doing is shifting back to the material world.

Kain could turn into mist or teleport, Sephiroth cannot hold mist wheras Kain can control it AND blood cells, he would just spray jenova cells all over the place and turn Sephiroth into nothing more than a gory cloud of cells.

Infact Kain could just cast lightning, that would finish off a lot of the characters in this match straight off the bat.


Cloud can block and dodge bullets with casual ease, which makes him faster then either Raziel or Kain.

Normally, a single slash would kill a person anyway =/


Sephiroth could actually cut off Kain's head before he can react. True Fact.

He can block bullets with a sword almost the size of him, thats like having someone hide behind a steel door and claim their dodging bullets.....

errr a normal human being yer.....

Whens he ever done that? hes never moved that quickly at all, Kain moves his hand and Sephiroth is screwed not that their both going to start the battle with their noses touching anyway.

Sephiroth can teleport, that is probably what he meant.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He can block bullets with a sword almost the size of him, thats like having someone hide behind a steel door and claim their dodging bullets.....

errr a normal human being yer.....

Whens he ever done that? hes never moved that quickly at all, Kain moves his hand and Sephiroth is screwed not that their both going to start the battle with their noses touching anyway.


He still has to raise the thing before the bullets reach him.


Are you referring to TK? Because Sephiroth can LOOK at Kain and rip his head off. And yes, Sephiroth can kill Kain before he can move.

Hardly, the way he uses the sword its like a shield half the time, the thing is huge and he often has it close to his face or in front of him before his opponents fire anyway, also blocking bullets is not the same as doging one, especially at close range or moving as quickly as one.

Sephiroth can do very little and wtf do you mean "looked" he has never riped someones head off with TK. Sephiroth is not fast enough.

Barret
"Ugh...! Is this...... the true power of Sephiroth?"

Cid
"My... my body... I can't control my body...... Uuugh!?"

(Sephiroth draws the party nearer with his mental powers, only to torment
them with another fire ring.)

Red XIII
"My front legs...... my hind legs...... my tail's about to tear
off!!"

Cait Sith
"This is definitely not good...... He's way outta our league..."

Yuffie
"I, I don't know if I can... go on..."

(The screen flashes and the party spins in the air like toys.)


That was when he was toying with them. Logically, he could easily rip people apart.

logically? where do you get that rubbish from? breaking bones is far more of a feat with TK than just moving some limbs about and pulling a dogs tail lol.....

Ridiculous...

By your logic, if Kain can lift Moebius' weight he should be easily able to rip off an arm, leg or the head off sephiroth....

not to mention Kain could immedialtey stop any of that nonsense with an instant mist transformation, then dispurse Sephiroths cells into a murky black cloud with his own TK......

1. The entire party had the same effects. And Red said his entire body was being ripped apart, not just his tail.

2. Kain has never hinted that he was toying with Moebius. Sephiroth was.

3. He can stop his head from being ripped off? =|

4. Kain has never TKed cells apart, you silly little man.

1. He said that it FELT like it was TEARING, meaning it was obviously barely a forceful rip,

2. The whole scene is a hint, hes getting information out of Moebius, not killing him.

3. You cant rip off someones head when its nothing but mist, since Sephiroth cannot use his TK to stop or disrupt small objects like Kain can.

4. But Kain has Tked cells you silly little boy

Zack, who is slower than Cloud, dodged bullets pretty easily.

And Kain can draw blood to him. That does not mean he can TK cells.

Ive seen Zack dogding bullets, reminiscent of many a James bond scene and full of PIS.

Blood is cells, thus all he can possibly be Tking is cells....

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. He said that it FELT like it was TEARING, meaning it was obviously barely a forceful rip,

2. The whole scene is a hint, hes getting information out of Moebius, not killing him.

3. You cant rip off someones head when its nothing but mist, since Sephiroth cannot use his TK to stop or disrupt small objects like Kain can.

4. But Kain has Tked cells you silly little boy


And their limbs twisting around in the air have nothing to do with this right?

k

k

Nah

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ive seen Zack dogding bullets, reminiscent of many a James bond scene and full of PIS.

Blood is cells, thus all he can possibly be Tking is cells.... 1. Zack has been effortlessly dodging bullets since he was a SOLDIER Second Rank. PIS? How?

2. No, he draws the blood to him.

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
And their limbs twisting around in the air have nothing to do with this right?

k

k

Nah

Twisting around in the air? their twisting round otherwise they would be broken or in more trouble than they were, infact they were fine after he had gone so obvioulsy he had done very little damage.

lol blind denile.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
1. Zack has been effortlessly dodging bullets since he was a SOLDIER Second Rank. PIS? How?

2. No, he draws the blood to him.

1. That machinegunners from all angels couldnt hit him? thats not just doging bullets, thats completly against the laws of physics, it doesnt matter how quick he is, hed have to be much faster than ive seen any FF character move to dodge rooms of machinegunners unless their useless marksman with terrible innacurate weapons (wouldnt put it past them). Its obvious PIS, one pullet would have hit him, infact when the game slows down so you can see the bullets and him in comparison, hes not that much quicker than them tbh.

2. Blood which is cells, hell just tear apart Sephiroth or most other characters of unkown or low durability apart cell by cell.

People are made up of cells. Guess Sephiroth TKed 7 People worth of cells. : )

People are made up of a lot of solid packed cells, to move blood you would have to be able to move the cells themselves, and anyway your logic is flawed. You cant compare blood/liquid to people who are solid.

Originally posted by K1ll3r
What exactly do you mean by return? What would switching to the spiritual world and back achieve?

No matter what you do to Raziel, he will return from the Spiritual world. They will be frozen(for some time). Kain isn't really that fast when it comes to swinging his sword(he did move pretty fast when he zipped to Moebius/Raziel).

I dont know about that, his sanguine sensure or however the hell you spell it is damn fast....creating distortion and wave effects when swinging.

Woah! I just got a massive sense of deva vu. It's almost as if.....mmm.. as if this arguments been done before....

Originally posted by Burning thought
Hes not even that fast tbh, hes not as much as a speed blitzer as Sephiroth and his strength and swordmanship are useless against a being whos single slash would rip your soul out and can turn into a spirit and back in moments, keep in mind that lets just assume somehow Cloud got the other hand, Raziel ends up cleaved in two, all he ends up doing is shifting back to the material world.

Kain could turn into mist or teleport, Sephiroth cannot hold mist wheras Kain can control it AND blood cells, he would just spray jenova cells all over the place and turn Sephiroth into nothing more than a gory cloud of cells.

Infact Kain could just cast lightning, that would finish off a lot of the characters in this match straight off the bat.

He is faster than Raziel, seriously, when has Raziel deflected bullets. Even though he isn't as fast as Sephiroth he is still fast and can react to fast things, things that move faster then Raziel. His single slash ripping out Clouds soul wouldn't affect him, because he wouldn't be able to hit him.

So, if Raziel can 'return' why can't Sephiroth just will himself back into existance?

Sephiroth has held something as intangible and more powerful then simple mist: HOLY. Jenova cells are not blood cells, Sephiroth technically doesn't need blood to live, because his Cells can live on thier own, with no blood flow.

Sephiroth could just cast lightning, that would finish off a lot of the characters in this match straight off the bat.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He can block bullets with a sword almost the size of him, thats like having someone hide behind a steel door and claim their dodging bullets.....

errr a normal human being yer.....

Whens he ever done that? hes never moved that quickly at all, Kain moves his hand and Sephiroth is screwed not that their both going to start the battle with their noses touching anyway.

No, it isn't the size of him, stop exaggerating. He literally has to move it to block the bullets, and the sword is huge, that says something for his strength, speed and control. Just the fact he can react to bullets is better than Raziel and probably Kain.

A normal human being couldn't lift it, let alone block bullets with it.

In CC you can see a tiny bit of his speed, which should be enough to get Kain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
logically? where do you get that rubbish from? breaking bones is far more of a feat with TK than just moving some limbs about and pulling a dogs tail lol.....

Ridiculous...

By your logic, if Kain can lift Moebius' weight he should be easily able to rip off an arm, leg or the head off sephiroth....

not to mention Kain could immedialtey stop any of that nonsense with an instant mist transformation, then dispurse Sephiroths cells into a murky black cloud with his own TK......

Breaking bones is less of a feat then lifting up eight people and controlling all their limbs all the while them fighting against you.

Depends, how much does Moebius weigh?

Sephiroth has held HOLY, something as intangible as mist and even has incredible force behind it. Sephiroths cells have an instinct, to get to eachother meaning they will literally move to get back to eachother, coupled with Sephirohts mind, im sure he can reassemble himself thats if Kain can TK the cells of someone who can control their own cells.

Originally posted by Gumachi
No matter what you do to Raziel, he will return from the Spiritual world. They will be frozen(for some time). Kain isn't really that fast when it comes to swinging his sword(he did move pretty fast when he zipped to Moebius/Raziel).

No matter what you do to Sephiroth, he will, will himself back into existence from the lifestream. Sephiroth can swing his sword super fast, he slices his sword around 4 or 5 times(probably more) within the space of a second all in different directions. That is insane.

Originally posted by K1ll3r
He is faster than Raziel, seriously, when has Raziel deflected bullets. Even though he isn't as fast as Sephiroth he is still fast and can react to fast things, things that move faster then Raziel. His single slash ripping out Clouds soul wouldn't affect him, because he wouldn't be able to hit him.

So, if Raziel can 'return' why can't Sephiroth just will himself back into existance?

Sephiroth has held something as intangible and more powerful then simple mist: HOLY. Jenova cells are not blood cells, Sephiroth technically doesn't need blood to live, because his Cells can live on thier own, with no blood flow.

Sephiroth could just cast lightning, that would finish off a lot of the characters in this match straight off the bat.



No, it isn't the size of him, stop exaggerating. He literally has to move it to block the bullets, and the sword is huge, that says something for his strength, speed and control. Just the fact he can react to bullets is better than Raziel and probably Kain.

A normal human being couldn't lift it, let alone block bullets with it.

In CC you can see a tiny bit of his speed, which should be enough to get Kain.



Breaking bones is less of a feat then lifting up eight people and controlling all their limbs all the while them fighting against you.

Depends, how much does Moebius weigh?

Sephiroth has held HOLY, something as intangible as mist and even has incredible force behind it. Sephiroths cells have an instinct, to get to eachother meaning they will literally move to get back to eachother, coupled with Sephirohts mind, im sure he can reassemble himself thats if Kain can TK the cells of someone who can control their own cells.



No matter what you do to Sephiroth, he will, will himself back into existence from the lifestream. Sephiroth can swing his sword super fast, he slices his sword around 4 or 5 times(probably more) within the space of a second all in different directions. That is insane. i smell speculation

Originally posted by K1ll3r
He is faster than Raziel, seriously, when has Raziel deflected bullets. Even though he isn't as fast as Sephiroth he is still fast and can react to fast things, things that move faster then Raziel. His single slash ripping out Clouds soul wouldn't affect him, because he wouldn't be able to hit him.

So, if Raziel can 'return' why can't Sephiroth just will himself back into existance?

Sephiroth has held something as intangible and more powerful then simple mist: HOLY. Jenova cells are not blood cells, Sephiroth technically doesn't need blood to live, because his Cells can live on thier own, with no blood flow.

Sephiroth could just cast lightning, that would finish off a lot of the characters in this match straight off the bat.



No, it isn't the size of him, stop exaggerating. He literally has to move it to block the bullets, and the sword is huge, that says something for his strength, speed and control. Just the fact he can react to bullets is better than Raziel and probably Kain.

A normal human being couldn't lift it, let alone block bullets with it.

In CC you can see a tiny bit of his speed, which should be enough to get Kain.



Breaking bones is less of a feat then lifting up eight people and controlling all their limbs all the while them fighting against you.

Depends, how much does Moebius weigh?

No matter what you do to Sephiroth, he will, will himself back into existence from the lifestream. Sephiroth can swing his sword super fast, he slices his sword around 4 or 5 times(probably more) within the space of a second all in different directions. That is insane.

He is faster than Raziel, thing is Raziel has TK so he can put an end to this "faster than" nonsense straight off the bat, but blocking bullets with an enormous weapon like Clouds is no feat at all, ill go hide behind a van if someone fires at me and ill put it off as me "dodging" the shells....

Because Sephiroth cannot do such a thing...

But their cells and how do you know how intangable Holy is, its not solid but we dont even know how it works, or how he held it. He just stopped it as well, not manipulated. We dont even know if Sephiroth uses TK, its just apprently "willpower".

Dont be foolish, lightning wouldnt kill half the characters here even if it did hit them, and even then, no FF character is going to cast a spell in this match, the characters are too fast not to mention Kain for one can block spells in an instant.

Its huge and most of the time hes got it across him anyway, the most he has to do is move his arm left or right to make sure his enormous sword covers the area its going to hit, just like a knight with a shield against a bowman, he does not have to be as fast as the arrow to block it.

No its not, breaking bones is like overcoming something stronger than reinforced concrete, picking a guy up is nothing, not even several. Then take into account Kain is likely both stronger and more durable than all of those picked up put together and Sephiroth hasnt a chance.

Show me Sephiroth doing that and ive seen Kain do several slashes in a second, its nothing impressive, Kain will pull Sephiroth apart cell by cell and spray him across the ground

Originally posted by Burning thought
He is faster than Raziel. thing is Raziel has TK so he can put an end to this "faster than" nonsense straight off the bat, *snip*

Good, we agree that Cloud is faster then Raziel. Yes, he has TK so Cloud loses against Raziel.

Originally posted by Burning thought
but blocking bullets with an enormous weapon like Clouds is no feat at all, ill go hide behind a van if someone fires at me and ill put it off as me "dodging" the shells....

Yes it is, it isn't as enormous as you make it out to be, a van is a lot bigger then Clouds sword.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because Sephiroth cannot do such a thing...

Yes he can, especially when he has cells still hanging around.

Originally posted by Burning thought
But their cells

They are Jenova cells, which have instincts to connect themselves with eachother.

Originally posted by Burning thought
and how do you know how intangable Holy is, its not solid but we dont even know how it works, or how he held it.

What we do know about HOLY is it has a force, and is not a solid, it seems to be like light in substance that moves with a force, and Sephiroth contained it with his Will (OR TK).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1548279993389993862
3:00.

The force of HOLY is crazy big.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He just stopped it as well, not manipulated. We dont even know if Sephiroth uses TK, its just apprently "willpower"..

He contained it, and it has a force. In this context how is willpower different from TK?

Originally posted by Burning thought
no FF character is going to cast a spell in this match, the characters are too fast not to mention Kain for one can block spells in an instant.

*sigh* I am so annoyed at you using a gameplay style as a crutch against FF

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/24698.html
00:03
The name of the spell pops up as he casts it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its huge and most of the time hes got it across him anyway, the most he has to do is move his arm left or right to make sure his enormous sword covers the area its going to hit, just like a knight with a shield against a bowman, he does not have to be as fast as the arrow to block it.

It isn't as huge as you think it is, and no he doesn't. No, he moves his sword into completely different positions not what you say. That is a terrible analogy, a sword is held entirely different to a shield and Cloud handles his sword different to how you say.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No its not, breaking bones is like overcoming something stronger than reinforced concrete, picking a guy up is nothing, not even several.

So, when my friend broke his arm from tripping onto reinforced concrete destroyed the entire concrete block broke before his arm broke. Your logic fails. The force required to pick them up was around 1100 lbs. Wt. easily enough to break any bone.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Then take into account Kain is likely both stronger and more durable than all of those picked up put together and Sephiroth hasnt a chance.


Show me him being more durable, and how he could withstand even 900 lbs. Wt. on his face.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Show me Sephiroth doing that and ive seen Kain do several slashes in a second, its nothing impressive, Kain will pull Sephiroth apart cell by cell and spray him across the ground

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4
from 3:00.

Kains feat is less then Sephiroths feat. Kain will not be able to do any such thing, as Jenova cells will stay together, they literally move to make sure they are together.


Sephiroth infects both Kain and Raziel with the Jenova virus.

@Phanteros Where?

Raziel can only push with TK last I checked.

And the very notion that Kain can rip apart the cells of Sephiroth or anyone is idiotic.

He can lift with TK(I think)...it upgraded after he defeated Tumah(I think his name is). It atleast changes after you defeat him in gameplay.

Originally posted by K1ll3r
Good, we agree that Cloud is faster then Raziel. Yes, he has TK so Cloud loses against Raziel.



Yes it is, it isn't as enormous as you make it out to be, a van is a lot bigger then Clouds sword.



Yes he can, especially when he has cells still hanging around.



They are Jenova cells, which have instincts to connect themselves with eachother.



What we do know about HOLY is it has a force, and is not a solid, it seems to be like light in substance that moves with a force, and Sephiroth contained it with his Will (OR TK).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1548279993389993862
3:00.

The force of HOLY is crazy big.



He contained it, and it has a force. In this context how is willpower different from TK?



*sigh* I am so annoyed at you using a gameplay style as a crutch against FF

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/24698.html
00:03
The name of the spell pops up as he casts it.



It isn't as huge as you think it is, and no he doesn't. No, he moves his sword into completely different positions not what you say. That is a terrible analogy, a sword is held entirely different to a shield and Cloud handles his sword different to how you say.



So, when my friend broke his arm from tripping onto reinforced concrete destroyed the entire concrete block broke before his arm broke. Your logic fails. The force required to pick them up was around 1100 lbs. Wt. easily enough to break any bone.



Show me him being more durable, and how he could withstand even 900 lbs. Wt. on his face.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4
from 3:00.

Kains feat is less then Sephiroths feat. Kain will not be able to do any such thing, as Jenova cells will stay together, they literally move to make sure they are together.


Sephiroth infects both Kain and Raziel with the Jenova virus.

@Phanteros Where?

Yes we do, but not as much as you would like to think, hes not blitzing anyone in this match.

Yeh but you see ime making the point out of an exaggeration, fact is Clouds sword is ridiculously large and he has to put less effort into blocking something with it than the typical sword.

And Kain will not let them.....or he could outright destroy them with his many other spells.

TK is not necesserily what Sephiroth uses, still, you cant name it as a TK feat.

What do you mean the force of holy? all it did was burst forth, knocking an airship over, for all we know it only burst forth because it was contained in one space, like if you try and condense a lot of water into a small container and then take the lid off, it will explode.

TK is creating kinetic e.g. physical force with your mind, what willpower is is pretty much unkown, I dont know what the FF creators say it is, its just "willpower", we cant assume he would have to stop the cells of the object even if we do assume its as liquid and unstable as blood.

Ime not talking about gameplay, infact what you just showed is gameplay, ime talking about when the player is not actually playing e.g.

EOrU-vP-UeE&feature=related

At the beginning, it takes him around 3/4+ seconds to summon bahumaht or w/e its name is, and it takes nearly as long in all FF material.

No a normal sword is held diffrently, Cloud almost has his in front of him constantly and its just as big, if not bigger than the typical shield, blocking a bullet with that sword from one or two gunman in the past who are predictable is not much of a feat.

How can you assume that? not to mention the fact its not necesserily real TK and he may not even be able to concentate on smaller forces, just because you can lift a rock with two hands doesnt mean you can put all the strength used into one hand. Infact all I have seen from Sephiroths TK is larger objects, usually human sized, never anything smaller, its likely he cannot even concentrate his will power or TK (if he really has it) on certain areas.

The proof is in my profile, biography section, if Kain can take tonnes of force then Sephiroth could never damage him with his weak TK, fact is Sephiroth has not shown the force to smash bones, certainly not the bones and flesh of a being far stronger and this is a stupid argument anyway because Kain could transform into mist or teleport to escape any TK hold.


The only slightly impressive feat in that video is the very beginning where he slashes the ground up a few times, fact is Kains slash is similiar albiet without flashy effects:

Srdsvk1OmB0

Kain does about 3/4 slashes in less than a second. Similiar in this battle:

7LTpwokoywE

At 0:28 and 0:38

Well whats the strength feat of a single jenova cell because the way I see it, its going to be a tiny cells will against Kains Tk......

Originally posted by Gumachi
He can lift with TK(I think)...it upgraded after he defeated Tumah(I think his name is). It atleast changes after you defeat him in gameplay.

Raziel enhances his TK to kains level after defeating Turel.

Kain could almost instantly have his opponents kill eachother, or destroy them all with Blood shower, leaving those without blood to kill eachother through inspire hate until he gets bored, he could then kill his own team mates in the time it takes for Sephiroth and whoever else to murder eachother.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes we do, but not as much as you would like to think, hes not blitzing anyone in this match.

But you already admitted he is faster and...(contd)

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yeh but you see ime making the point out of an exaggeration, fact is Clouds sword is ridiculously large and he has to put less effort into blocking something with it than the typical sword.

Yes you were, you were trying to deny that Cloud could react to bullets(Because his sword is so big he doesn't need to), which he clearly can.

(contd)...that he has faster reflexes than Raziel.

Originally posted by Burning thought
And Kain will not let them.....or he could outright destroy them with his many other spells.

A. Show me him Tking cells.
B. Show me him Tking cells that can come back together.
C. Show me him destroying cells.

Originally posted by Burning thought
TK is not necesserily what Sephiroth uses, still, you cant name it as a TK feat.

Yes, he does use TK. Will is sometimes synonymous with TK.

Originally posted by Burning thought
What do you mean the force of holy? all it did was burst forth, knocking an airship over, for all we know it only burst forth because it was contained in one space, like if you try and condense a lot of water into a small container and then take the lid off, it will explode.


It burst forth, sending a 1800 ton airship several thousand miles in the air from deep in the planet within 10 - 15 seconds, that is a lot of force. I don't know why you used this analogy, because Holy can clearly move itself into place, whereas water can't. Try harder to make holy seem like nothing please.

Originally posted by Burning thought
TK is creating kinetic e.g. physical force with your mind, what willpower is is pretty much unkown, I dont know what the FF creators say it is, its just "willpower", we cant assume he would have to stop the cells of the object even if we do assume its as liquid and unstable as blood.

TK is exerting your will over things or a physical manifestation of your minds thoughts. e.g. you exert your will to move an arm to pick up a pen, you exert your will to pick up a pen, you tk the pen. I never assumed that.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ime not talking about gameplay, infact what you just showed is gameplay, ime talking about when the player is not actually playing e.g.

But you used gameplay before to show how long it took to cast materia? And you use it again later on in this quote.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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At the beginning, it takes him around 3/4+ seconds to summon bahumaht or w/e its name is, and it takes nearly as long in all FF material.


Show me this taking nearly as long in all ff materia'l'.
Show me him using the materia without any showmanship, just casting, no talking about things and no doing it dramatically.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No a normal sword is held diffrently, Cloud almost has his in front of him constantly and its just as big, if not bigger than the typical shield, blocking a bullet with that sword from one or two gunman in the past who are predictable is not much of a feat.


I didn't say he held it like a normal sword. It sure as hell isn't wider than a typical shield. I have no idea what you are rambling on about here, but blocking bullets with a sword is a feat.

Cloud blocking bullets with a fairly thin sword, you can clearly see him moving the sword into the path of the bullets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Now5jv53Ihg
01:50

Zack blocking bullets with a very thin sword, you can clearly see him moving the sword into the path of the bullets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D16uzMf8BOk
02:10

Originally posted by Burning thought
How can you assume that? not to mention the fact its not necesserily real TK and he may not even be able to concentate on smaller forces, just because you can lift a rock with two hands doesnt mean you can put all the strength used into one hand. Infact all I have seen from Sephiroths TK is larger objects, usually human sized, never anything smaller, its likely he cannot even concentrate his will power or TK (if he really has it) on certain areas.


You are not taking anything in, he can concentrate his willpower onto certain areas, like when he is holding back holy while lifting up Cloud and co while moving all of their limbs etc. Stop making me repeat myself.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The proof is in my profile, biography section, if Kain can take tonnes of force then Sephiroth could never damage him with his weak TK, fact is Sephiroth has not shown the force to smash bones, certainly not the bones and flesh of a being far stronger and this is a stupid argument anyway because Kain could transform into mist or teleport to escape any TK hold.


Whoa that is pretty crazy, he can lift 50 tons, Holy lifted more then that, quicker, and it wasn't even focused on the airship that it lifted and Sephiroth contained holy while also doing everything else.

He could contain the mist with his will, just like he did with holy. Teleport out of TK? Then so could Sephiroth.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The only slightly impressive feat in that video is the very beginning where he slashes the ground up a few times, fact is Kains slash is similiar albiet without flashy effects:


What the hell are you talking about, slamming Genesis several miles into the air is not impressive?

Flying up to him in a second is not impressive?

Slicing up the entire Junon cannon, effortlessly, is not impressive?

Tanking the force of a huge crater causing attack, without a second thought, not impressive?

Yeah, he slashes his sword 4 or 5 times in several different directions creating a wierd angle and choppy cut in the Junon cannon. Kains slash is nothing to that.

Originally posted by Burning thought
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Kain does about 3/4 slashes in less than a second. Similiar in this battle:

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At 0:28 and 0:38


Sorry, gameplay, and nothing in the cinematic showed anything near like Sephiroth or even Yuffie.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well whats the strength feat of a single jenova cell because the way I see it, its going to be a tiny cells will against Kains Tk......


No, it is Sephiroths will against Kains tk, plus each individual cell vs the force Kain applies to each individual cell. From what I have seen Sephiroths TK is much more powerful then Kains, and Sephiroths will is also much better then Kains tk. (If you want to use Will and TK as something completely different)

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain could almost instantly have his opponents kill eachother, or destroy them all with Blood shower, leaving those without blood to kill eachother through inspire hate until he gets bored, he could then kill his own team mates in the time it takes for Sephiroth and whoever else to murder eachother.


Sorry, Kain doesn't have the speed or reflexes to match Sephiroth or Cloud in a swordfight, even having his opponents kill eachother wouldn't do much (which he couldn't do, because Sephiroth would have already pierced his face), because Sephiroth would kill Cloud and then kill Kain and Raziel. Sephiroth doesn't need blood.

Sephiroth could infect Kain and Raziel with the Jenova virus, turning them into monster versions of themselves, under the control of Sephiroth, and all he has to do is be near them.

Originally posted by K1ll3r
But you already admitted he is faster and...(contd)



Yes you were, you were trying to deny that Cloud could react to bullets(Because his sword is so big he doesn't need to), which he clearly can.

(contd)...that he has faster reflexes than Raziel.



A. Show me him Tking cells.
B. Show me him Tking cells that can come back together.
C. Show me him destroying cells.



Yes, he does use TK. Will is sometimes synonymous with TK.




It burst forth, sending a 1800 ton airship several thousand miles in the air from deep in the planet within 10 - 15 seconds, that is a lot of force. I don't know why you used this analogy, because Holy can clearly move itself into place, whereas water can't. Try harder to make holy seem like nothing please.



TK is exerting your will over things or a physical manifestation of your minds thoughts. e.g. you exert your will to move an arm to pick up a pen, you exert your will to pick up a pen, you tk the pen. I never assumed that.



But you used gameplay before to show how long it took to cast materia? And you use it again later on in this quote.



Show me this taking nearly as long in all ff materia'l'.
Show me him using the materia without any showmanship, just casting, no talking about things and no doing it dramatically.



I didn't say he held it like a normal sword. It sure as hell isn't wider than a typical shield. I have no idea what you are rambling on about here, but blocking bullets with a sword is a feat.

Cloud blocking bullets with a fairly thin sword, you can clearly see him moving the sword into the path of the bullets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Now5jv53Ihg
01:50

Zack blocking bullets with a very thin sword, you can clearly see him moving the sword into the path of the bullets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D16uzMf8BOk
02:10



You are not taking anything in, he can concentrate his willpower onto certain areas, like when he is holding back holy while lifting up Cloud and co while moving all of their limbs etc. Stop making me repeat myself.



Whoa that is pretty crazy, he can lift 50 tons, Holy lifted more then that, quicker, and it wasn't even focused on the airship that it lifted and Sephiroth contained holy while also doing everything else.

He could contain the mist with his will, just like he did with holy. Teleport out of TK? Then so could Sephiroth.



What the hell are you talking about, slamming Genesis several miles into the air is not impressive?

Flying up to him in a second is not impressive?

Slicing up the entire Junon cannon, effortlessly, is not impressive?

Tanking the force of a huge crater causing attack, without a second thought, not impressive?

Yeah, he slashes his sword 4 or 5 times in several different directions creating a wierd angle and choppy cut in the Junon cannon. Kains slash is nothing to that.



Sorry, gameplay, and nothing in the cinematic showed anything near like Sephiroth or even Yuffie.



No, it is Sephiroths will against Kains tk, plus each individual cell vs the force Kain applies to each individual cell. From what I have seen Sephiroths TK is much more powerful then Kains, and Sephiroths will is also much better then Kains tk. (If you want to use Will and TK as something completely different)



Sorry, Kain doesn't have the speed or reflexes to match Sephiroth or Cloud in a swordfight, even having his opponents kill eachother wouldn't do much (which he couldn't do, because Sephiroth would have already pierced his face), because Sephiroth would kill Cloud and then kill Kain and Raziel. Sephiroth doesn't need blood.

Sephiroth could infect Kain and Raziel with the Jenova virus, turning them into monster versions of themselves, under the control of Sephiroth, and all he has to do is be near them.

Yes, and....very slightly...

Clearly not, because reacting to something predicatable with something as large as his sword in Advent children for example is not much of a feat at all.

A: PLz7T1Y_yFQ

B: That doesnt even make sense that question, you need to prove they can defeat Kains TK force first

C: Thats a stupid question, he could just use one of his many spells, whether it be a blast of fire or w/e, anything, their durability is zero.

Prove this theory, willpower is not quite the same as TK

1800 ton? i am curious how you can be so exact, can you show me where you got that figuire please? not that its relevent, Sephiroth didnt stop holy from doing that feat, show me what Sephiroth stopped holy from doing.

But exerting will to make a particulour object move is not the same as creating a kinetic force with your mind to make it move.

I do not use gameplay when taking materia cast times into account.

I dont have to show either of your negatives, you need to show me a FF character casting a materia quickly in-canon like I just showed Kadaj casting slowly, if you dont like the way he cast the materia then complain to the developers not me.

That sword is hardly thin, its still a large blade against a predictable shooter fireing slowly from long range. That still wont help him at all in a fight against Raziel.....

How is stopping holy and Clouds party "certain areas" their fairly large objects, hes never actually concentrated his force onto a smaller object, nor has he shown to be able to.


Holy did, Sephiroth didnt, Sephiroth did not stop Holy while it was doing that feat, as I said earlier, it was just Holy bursting forth from containment. Infact while contained, Holy is nothing, because its not moving it has zero force.

Contain the mist with his will? Sephiroth has never contained anything of such low density with a will such as Kains, Sephroths teleport is not only slow but also not enough, he cant teleport away from being pulled apart cell by cell.

None of it is impressive because none of it will help him against Kain or Raziel for that matter.

All he does is slice up the front of the cannon, big whoop, we see his fighting speed throughout the video and its not much better than most swordsman in video gaming including Kain, who can match the speed if not surpass it with his superior weapon.

Prove sephiroth can use his will to the same degree while in pieces, hes never done it so your talking nonsense and assuming a lot. His cells will be at Kains mercy.

It wouldnt be a sword fight, one slash and Sephiroth is dead or destroyed, one hand movement and Sephiroths sword is gone nad he would have to take the 1+ seconds to form it again if he even can more than once. Sephiroth is a toy for Kain, nothing more, he could toss him around like a rag doll with Tk and if he even escapes that he would just freeze him in time.....

Another load of nonsense, neither Raziel nor Kain are made out of lifestream, not ot mention show me the virus affecting the dead?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes, and....very slightly...


First off, show me Raziel moving anywhere, or reacting anywhere near to the ability of bullet blocking. In fact, show me Kain reacting fast enough to think about stopping a bullet when fired.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Clearly not, because reacting to something predicatable with something as large as his sword in Advent children for example is not much of a feat at all.


You didn't watch or read what I posted, try doing that sometime. Read my previous post for this rebuttal.

Originally posted by Burning thought
A: PLz7T1Y_yFQ


First, that isn't Tking cells.
Second, that is gameplay.
Thirdly, he only sends the blood to him, to absorb, showing he doesn't have as much control over it as you say.

Originally posted by Burning thought
B: That doesnt even make sense that question, you need to prove they can defeat Kains TK force first

No, you need to prove he can mess around with cells, before Sephiroths cells need to prove they can defeat Kains tk force. (Which they wouldn't need to, because Sephiroths will is greater then Kains.

Originally posted by Burning thought
C: Thats a stupid question, he could just use one of his many spells, whether it be a blast of fire or w/e, anything, their durability is zero.


Fire has 0 affect against Sephiroth, another spell please. Plus, he has to destroy all of them and before Sephiroth kills him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Prove this theory, willpower is not quite the same as TK


In this context it makes sense that willpower acts like TK, Cloud and co aren't lifted up by nothing.


Originally posted by Burning thought
1800 ton? i am curious how you can be so exact, can you show me where you got that figuire please? not that its relevent, Sephiroth didnt stop holy from doing that feat, show me what Sephiroth stopped holy from doing.

Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, go buy a copy, because you don't believe my english translation of it, it has all the vehicle dimensions. So you are saying Holy wasn't trying to do its job, that is illogical, why would it randomly not try and accomplish its goal?

Originally posted by Burning thought
But exerting will to make a particulour object move is not the same as creating a kinetic force with your mind to make it move.


What the hell, analyse your sentence:

Exerting will(which comes from your mind) to make a particular object move. (obviously with force, what else would move it?)
Creating kinetic force with your mind to make it move.

You basically said this:

Using your mind to create force to move something.
Creating force with your mind to move something.

Were you trying to prove that will can be considered tk in this instance?

Originally posted by Burning thought
I do not use gameplay when taking materia cast times into account.


You have, although I guess you haven't lately. But you have.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont have to show either of your negatives, you need to show me a FF character casting a materia quickly in-canon like I just showed Kadaj casting slowly, if you dont like the way he cast the materia then complain to the developers not me.


I showed you materia being used by Zack, and you just shout gameplay. So whatever, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWwb8ASM-i4 here that is, near the end, maximum of 3 seconds to summon Bahamut, still with a speech attached. Now lets see Kains magic.

Originally posted by Burning thought
That sword is hardly thin, its still a large blade against a predictable shooter fireing slowly from long range. That still wont help him at all in a fight against Raziel.....


What the hell, it is thinner than a van, and he still has to react to the bullet and change the position of the sword, you are still clearly in denial of this feat. Raziel could not react to this, he would be shot before he could think, therefore Raziel < Cloud in reaction time therefore <<<< Sephiroth.

Originally posted by Burning thought
How is stopping holy and Clouds party "certain areas" their fairly large objects, hes never actually concentrated his force onto a smaller object, nor has he shown to be able to.


Did you completely ignore the part about him controlling all 32 limbs, that is small, hands, arms, tails, feet, legs, heads. Seriously those a small 'objects'. Smaller than I have seen Kain or Raziel TK.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Holy did, Sephiroth didnt, Sephiroth did not stop Holy while it was doing that feat, as I said earlier, it was just Holy bursting forth from containment. Infact while contained, Holy is nothing, because its not moving it has zero force.


A. Sephiroth held Holy in place.
B. Holy was trying to get to meteor, using the same force that slammed the 1800 ton airship, to try and get to meteor.
C. It changed it's tragectory and still moved at the same speed and force.
D. Just because something is contained doesn't mean it can't exert force, it is just that force can't do anything against something that can contain it.

Start using logic for once please.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Contain the mist with his will? Sephiroth has never contained anything of such low density with a will such as Kains, Sephroths teleport is not only slow but also not enough, he cant teleport away from being pulled apart cell by cell.

A. He brings a spherical force around the mist compressing it in, just like Holy.
B. Sephiroths teleport is not slow, look at the clip I gave you!
C. Sephirohts will exists even when he is dead, or his cells are ripped apart, his cells are like little mini-Sephiroths, they can move.
D. Kain isn't going to pull Sephiroths cells apart because he can't. Simple.

Originally posted by Burning thought
None of it is impressive because none of it will help him against Kain or Raziel for that matter.

Kain couldn't react to Angeal and Genesis attacking him from both sides as easily as Sephiroth could, he has trouble reacting to Raziels slow attacks, let alone the speed at which Sephiroth can attack at.

Originally posted by Burning thought
All he does is slice up the front of the cannon, big whoop, we see his fighting speed throughout the video and its not much better than most swordsman in video gaming including Kain, who can match the speed if not surpass it with his superior weapon.

*sigh* He cuts it in around 4 different angles, in 4 - 5 strikes, within a second, the only place I have seen such crazy speed is in an Afro Samurai movie. Kain has nothing on Sephiroth in speed, awareness, swordsmanship and reflexes, based on those videos you posted.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Prove sephiroth can use his will to the same degree while in pieces, hes never done it so your talking nonsense and assuming a lot. His cells will be at Kains mercy.


Seraph Sephiroth used it, and was still in pieces. He can exert his will even when he has no cells. I am assuming nothing. No, Kain can't tk cells.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It wouldnt be a sword fight, one slash and Sephiroth is dead or destroyed, one hand movement and Sephiroths sword is gone nad he would have to take the 1+ seconds to form it again if he even can more than once. Sephiroth is a toy for Kain, nothing more, he could toss him around like a rag doll with Tk and if he even escapes that he would just freeze him in time.....


Sorry, show me Kain slicing, attacking and reacting to the degree at which Sephiroth can. Kains tk is less then Sephiroth, and Sephiroth has more of a reflex then Kain, so no, this wouldn't work. No, again Sephiroths tk is greater then Kains. Although, this freeze in time might be effective, lets see him using it...

Originally posted by Burning thought
Another load of nonsense, neither Raziel nor Kain are made out of lifestream, not ot mention show me the virus affecting the dead?


I am not sure why you think the thing that wiped out many planets before Jenova landed on Gaia, then almost destroyed the Ancients is a load of nonsense?

What does the lifestream have to do with this?

The virus doesn't care, it just turns things into monsters, and then it is under the control of Jenova (Sephiroth).

Also, Kain and Raziel are dead? I thought they were undead? They are clearly walking and moving about and have brain function.

Please add something new (Like the freeze time thing, that was interesting!) instead of making me repeat myself AGAIN.

How can the liftsteam work if they are already dead?

Originally posted by Burning thought

Kain could almost instantly have his opponents kill eachother, or destroy them all with Blood shower, leaving those without blood to kill eachother through inspire hate until he gets bored, he could then kill his own team mates in the time it takes for Sephiroth and whoever else to murder eachother.

Inspire Hate wouldn't do diddly squat to either Cloud or Sephiroth, unless you can prove that spell has worked on beings with high willpower.

Originally posted by Gumachi
How can the liftsteam work if they are already dead?

Undead(I think).

Originally posted by K1ll3r
First off, show me Raziel moving anywhere, or reacting anywhere near to the ability of bullet blocking. In fact, show me Kain reacting fast enough to think about stopping a bullet when fired.



You didn't watch or read what I posted, try doing that sometime. Read my previous post for this rebuttal.



First, that isn't Tking cells.
Second, that is gameplay.
Thirdly, he only sends the blood to him, to absorb, showing he doesn't have as much control over it as you say.



No, you need to prove he can mess around with cells, before Sephiroths cells need to prove they can defeat Kains tk force. (Which they wouldn't need to, because Sephiroths will is greater then Kains.



Fire has 0 affect against Sephiroth, another spell please. Plus, he has to destroy all of them and before Sephiroth kills him.



In this context it makes sense that willpower acts like TK, Cloud and co aren't lifted up by nothing.




Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, go buy a copy, because you don't believe my english translation of it, it has all the vehicle dimensions. So you are saying Holy wasn't trying to do its job, that is illogical, why would it randomly not try and accomplish its goal?



What the hell, analyse your sentence:

Exerting will(which comes from your mind) to make a particular object move. (obviously with force, what else would move it?)
Creating kinetic force with your mind to make it move.

You basically said this:

Using your mind to create force to move something.
Creating force with your mind to move something.

Were you trying to prove that will can be considered tk in this instance?



You have, although I guess you haven't lately. But you have.



I showed you materia being used by Zack, and you just shout gameplay. So whatever, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWwb8ASM-i4 here that is, near the end, maximum of 3 seconds to summon Bahamut, still with a speech attached. Now lets see Kains magic.



What the hell, it is thinner than a van, and he still has to react to the bullet and change the position of the sword, you are still clearly in denial of this feat. Raziel could not react to this, he would be shot before he could think, therefore Raziel < Cloud in reaction time therefore <<<< Sephiroth.



Did you completely ignore the part about him controlling all 32 limbs, that is small, hands, arms, tails, feet, legs, heads. Seriously those a small 'objects'. Smaller than I have seen Kain or Raziel TK.



A. Sephiroth held Holy in place.
B. Holy was trying to get to meteor, using the same force that slammed the 1800 ton airship, to try and get to meteor.
C. It changed it's tragectory and still moved at the same speed and force.
D. Just because something is contained doesn't mean it can't exert force, it is just that force can't do anything against something that can contain it.

Start using logic for once please.



A. He brings a spherical force around the mist compressing it in, just like Holy.
B. Sephiroths teleport is not slow, look at the clip I gave you!
C. Sephirohts will exists even when he is dead, or his cells are ripped apart, his cells are like little mini-Sephiroths, they can move.
D. Kain isn't going to pull Sephiroths cells apart because he can't. Simple.







What do you call bullet blocking? a guy pointing a gun at you and fireing in the same direction while you have your sword in the way? the guys accuracy was terrible, as if that requires speed. A normal human with some concentration can move an object the size of Clouds sword in the path of a predicatable bullet.

Ofcourse its Tking cells, thats all blood is ,loose cells, kain would have to have control over the cells to keep the blood together otherwise it wouldnt be going towards him like that.

You have confusion with what is canon and what is not, I thnk your confused between gameplay whcih is usable, and gameplay mechanics, which are not taken into account in a debate due to their nature such as health bars, things in gameplay, e.g. items and powers dont always need a cinematic to state their canon, Kain drinking blood through TK is what he has always done, its a canon ability.

What are you talking about? not as much control? hes moving it..the fact he needs it in his body means nothing, he would send Sephiroths cells somewhere else, like spraying across the air or into Cloud for a joke.

And prove sephiroths will is greater than Kains.....Kain has incredible intellect and willpower....

Against sephiroth or his cells? singulour they may be weak, you would have to prove their durabiliy, Kain has lightning, energy bolts, frost, flame, you name it, not that its relevent ofcourse, most of what he can do would destroy them and he could just toss them to the furthest reaches of the battlefield.

no you see Cloud and co are lifted up by Willpower, you cant assume Sephiroth is actually creating a physical force to lift them which would be what TK is doing, for all we know its some supernatural ability that he just happens to have.

Your talking as if Holy is alive, can you prove its alive? I am sorry but I dont have to go and buy your evidence, if you cant display the evidence in a way I can see it as an offical text its no good.

No you see your the one adding "kinetic" force to the statement, Sephiroth is just making it move, I dont know how and its all nice and well assuming he is creating some sort of TK effect, but tbh its not really relevent, he doesnt affect cells anyway.

Thats what I said before, 3-4 seconds, thats a long time to be standing around in a battle isnt it....when both your opponents with a wave of their hand could stop you from doing it.

0-SZURW9YcE&feature=related

In this video at 4:04 Kain pretty much instantly (less than a second to be exact) creates the repel shield, one which reflects all spells and protects him from physical harm as well. immedialtey Team 1 are screwed. Then you have:

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Here (5:07) you see Kain pretty much instantly on a whim blast Raziel with lightning, he didnt take 3 seconds or even close....

Now take into account Kain has a vast amount of such spells which he could obliterate this team with. hes also got reaver spells:

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At 0:43, take into account using the same power he can slow time, instantly teleport through dimension multiple times and cause that inspire hate I mentioned earlier.

lol nonsense, shot before he could think, the gunner was useless, he was slow and predictable. its the kind of shot James bond could regularly dodge. Now give Raziel a huge lump of metal like that sword and he wouldnt hardly have to do anything to stop those bullets.

wtf, where does it state he is controlling every limb? hell where did you get controlling from? all we hear from the team is that they feel like their being torn, nothing about him controlling the limbs at all, hes just lifting them and causing them pain a lot like how Kain does to Moebius. lmao, smaller than blood cells? dont be ridiculous....

B: prove thos
D: if something is contained its force is next ot nothing as soon as its contained, it has zero momentum, like Cloud trying to run when Raziel has him floating about the ground...he wont get any momentum...

A. Prove this is what he did to holy
B. not seen the clip, ive not seen any teleportaton clip in this thread.
C. lol wtf, little mini sephiroths, now your assuming, reaching and making up rubbish, their tiny cells and regardless of his will excisting, you cannot prove it can bring up any force like its shown previously to stop Kain from abusing his cells.
D. oh aye, he will.

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
Inspire Hate wouldn't do diddly squat to either Cloud or Sephiroth, unless you can prove that spell has worked on beings with high willpower.

Unless you can point out why a magic spell whos effect is completly magical alteration would be stopped just because of some fools willpower? its like saying willpower will stop a fireball in the air..dont be daft...

Originally posted by K1ll3r
Kain couldn't react to Angeal and Genesis attacking him from both sides as easily as Sephiroth could, he has trouble reacting to Raziels slow attacks, let alone the speed at which Sephiroth can attack at.



*sigh* He cuts it in around 4 different angles, in 4 - 5 strikes, within a second, the only place I have seen such crazy speed is in an Afro Samurai movie. Kain has nothing on Sephiroth in speed, awareness, swordsmanship and reflexes, based on those videos you posted.



Seraph Sephiroth used it, and was still in pieces. He can exert his will even when he has no cells. I am assuming nothing. No, Kain can't tk cells.



Sorry, show me Kain slicing, attacking and reacting to the degree at which Sephiroth can. Kains tk is less then Sephiroth, and Sephiroth has more of a reflex then Kain, so no, this wouldn't work. No, again Sephiroths tk is greater then Kains. Although, this freeze in time might be effective, lets see him using it...



I am not sure why you think the thing that wiped out many planets before Jenova landed on Gaia, then almost destroyed the Ancients is a load of nonsense?

What does the lifestream have to do with this?

The virus doesn't care, it just turns things into monsters, and then it is under the control of Jenova (Sephiroth).

Also, Kain and Raziel are dead? I thought they were undead? They are clearly walking and moving about and have brain function.

Please add something new (Like the freeze time thing, that was interesting!) instead of making me repeat myself AGAIN.

Kain cant react to Raziels attacks? when lol, Kain has never actually fought Raziel in anger or with purpose to harm him s you dont know what your talking about, not that speed is relevent for characters who are being dispersed or frozen by TK and time slowing powers.

Cutting and slashing ive shown, although tbh, Ive not seen any sword skills from Sephiroth beyond any typical swordsman, both human or otherwise so you would have to assume Kain is slower and weaker than a human before we can claim he is worse than Sephiroth.

Thier still corpses, Kain for one has no heart and no real functions in his body, the power that keeps him moving would have to be overcome to stop Kain, thing is, Sephiroth has no way of stopping such magical forces, infact its unlikely their even magical but as i said, I doubt oyu can prove the dead are affected by this virus. And its important because lifestream is the source of beings in the FF world.

Stop complaining about having to repeat yourself when your doing the exact same thing to me, unless you want to concede on your points to move onto some new ones?

The time powers I think ive shown you before, youve not seen Kains huge list of powers, they work in exactley the same way as the Repel shield I showed you earlier and Kains reaver blast, only ofcourse with diffrent effects after their casting.

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo1/spells.php

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo2/gifts.php

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/reaverkain.php

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/attackraz.php

Originally posted by Burning thought


And prove sephiroths will is greater than Kains.....Kain has incredible intellect and willpower....



K


Sephiroth took control of the planet's life force with sheer will, and willed himself back to life.





Because the spell would attack the mind? The only people the spell has worked on where weak soldiers.

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
K


Sephiroth took control of the planet's life force with sheer will, and willed himself back to life.





Because the spell would attack the mind? The only people the spell has worked on where weak soldiers. he didn't take all of the planets lifeforce only 1/5

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
K


Sephiroth took control of the planet's life force with sheer will, and willed himself back to life.





Because the spell would attack the mind? The only people the spell has worked on where weak soldiers.

Specific powers that are peculier in nature, theres no bar with which to compare how impressive those feats really are tbh....he cant will someone dead, he cant will himself to be in another area, he cant will himself to do a lot of things, their just specific events.

Soldiers, wizards, other vampires etc, still a spell that transforms the thoughts in a beings mind, you would need spell resistance to that kind of magic to stop it, having some willpower wont change a thing lol...

Originally posted by Burning thought
Specific powers that are peculier in nature, theres no bar with which to compare how impressive those feats really are tbh....he cant will someone dead, he cant will himself to be in another area, he cant will himself to do a lot of things, their just specific events.

Soldiers, wizards, other vampires etc, still a spell that transforms the thoughts in a beings mind, you would need spell resistance to that kind of magic to stop it, having some willpower wont change a thing lol...

They are still more impressive then ANYTHING Kain has EVER done.


No, you wouldn't. Why, because it's MAGIK in nature? Nah, GTFO. So, by your logic, a being could use a weak spell to manipulate someone who had by far stronger will power, because the spell is magic? Nah.

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
They are still more impressive then ANYTHING Kain has EVER done.


No, you wouldn't. Why, because it's MAGIK in nature? Nah, GTFO. So, by your logic, a being could use a weak spell to manipulate someone who had by far stronger will power, because the spell is magic? Nah.

Not at all, some weak ass stream of life, Kain masters life and death and has created his own to a degree not to mention he cannot actually die and is immortal to the degree that if he was in the FF universe the lifestream would never have taken him at all without his effort.

What the hell do you think spell resistance is for? its not just a mental assault, its a magical one, and yes, if you have resistance in one area what good is it if the power up against you is a completly diffrent element...you cant hope just because a suit of armour can shield you from physical blows that it can save you from a fiery or frost one, or a soul devouring one....Sephiroth has barely enough resistance for a full mental assault but this is magical in nature, he prob woudnt even know or realise anythings changed about him, hell suddenly hate Cloud next to him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not at all, some weak ass stream of life, Kain masters life and death and has created his own to a degree not to mention he cannot actually die and is immortal to the degree that if he was in the FF universe the lifestream would never have taken him at all without his effort.

What the hell do you think spell resistance is for? its not just a mental assault, its a magical one, and yes, if you have resistance in one area what good is it if the power up against you is a completly diffrent element...you cant hope just because a suit of armour can shield you from physical blows that it can save you from a fiery or frost one, or a soul devouring one....Sephiroth has barely enough resistance for a full mental assault but this is magical in nature, he prob woudnt even know or realise anythings changed about him, hell suddenly hate Cloud next to him.


Weak ass stream of life?

The Lifestream is the creator of all the laws of the FF7 world. That includes magic, life, time, matter, everything.

Kain can't die? Is that why he was nearly killed in BO2? Is that why enemies can harm and kill Kain in the games he's been in?

Because the attack is focused on the mind, dur. I don't give a rat's ass if it's magical. Why does that matter? You assume a weak ass attack will take down a stronger person, why?

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
Weak ass stream of life?

The Lifestream is the creator of all the laws of the FF7 world. That includes magic, life, time, matter, everything.

Kain can't die? Is that why he was nearly killed in BO2? Is that why enemies can harm and kill Kain in the games he's been in?

Because the attack is focused on the mind, dur. I don't give a rat's ass if it's magical. Why does that matter? You assume a weak ass attack will take down a stronger person, why?

Where did it say that? and that still does not mean that its hard to control, hell all it required for it to be defeated is some cells from an alien entity, just because its the energy used in all these features does not make it powerful.

In canon he is rarely harmed and never killed, he cant be, and as shown by Defiance even things that should kill him outright cant. He is immortal and the wheel of life/death cannot take him either.

Whats weak assed about it? you dont know anything about it and Sephiroth has zero spel lresistance, news flash...its a spell, not just a mental attack whihc is why sephiroth would fail to it along with Cloud.

Right, because a spell that controls your mind is clearly much more than simply controlling your mind.

Right BT?

its a spell/magic force making it happen, thus, you would have to be able to stop the magic force from happening, which Sephiroth cannot do. The fact the magic is making his mind think something diffrent, even if we assume he does actually contiously somehow figuire out Kain has just instantly confused his mind with some insidious skill (obvoulsy he wouldnt know in reality) then he still does not have it within his means to stop the magic from affecting his mind, if it was just a psychic power then maybe he could but no, not if its a spell, he has no resistance.

Right, because spells obviously make a difference when it comes to telepathy.

w8 a min, whos talking about telepathy......

Inspire Hate is a telepathic spell, affecting the mind.

Of course you could argue it would be more like empathetic actually now that I think of it, but really that's just semantics.

But yes, simply because the attack is magical makes it far more than a simple empathetic attack right?

Telepathy is one mind touching another from my understnading and from several defintions I just read.....Kain is not touching anyones mind with his own...

But yes, the magic nature of the spell makes it require certain resistances, just like how having the ability to stop reality warping is important in resisting it, just like how stopping flames, ice, lightning, soul destroying etc are all necessery to stop their relevent offensive attacks, you cant pull out a resistance from thin air and having resistane against physical might does not equel resistance agaisnt soul or reality warping etc. You need to right defence to stop the offence, Sephiroth has not.

Right.

Despite Inspire Hate having the same effect of any other empathetic attack which causes you to go super berserk, it requires a special resistance simply because it is magical.

Now to be serious.

Wanna know what the difference is between what you are claiming is needed and the examples you brought up?

I'll tell you.

Reality warping is entirely different. Reality warping allows you to bend the laws of time/space to your whim, and basically break the fundamental forces of reality. Of course you need a resistance to this, reality warping is the most powerful basic power in existence short of actual omniscience.

Soul attacks bypass physical defenses and attack an area vulnerable to most, the soul.

The elemental attacks need some specific resistances because of the varying affects they do, fire burns, ice freezes, and lightning surges through you.

Inspire Hate is your basic empathetic spell which causes whomever is affected by it to go berserk and attack allies. It is an empathetic attack, so mental resistance is required to stop it. However, your notion that even a being with mental resistance cannot stop it simply because of the fact that the spell is magical is flawed, illogical, and stupid. Despite being magic, it has a known effect, it targets your mind. Why would a being that has mental resistance not be able to resist it simply because it is magical? Simple answer, he would resist it, rather easily, being magical is meaningless when the effect is the same as a non-magical effect.



Although I really do not care who wins this fight, nor do I even think Sephiroth can resist the spell. "Willpower" is not enough of a reason to say he can resist the spell when he has never resisted something similar(to my knowledge).

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Right.

Despite Inspire Hate having the same effect of any other empathetic attack which causes you to go super berserk, it requires a special resistance simply because it is magical.

Now to be serious.

Wanna know what the difference is between what you are claiming is needed and the examples you brought up?

I'll tell you.

Reality warping is entirely different. Reality warping allows you to bend the laws of time/space to your whim, and basically break the fundamental forces of reality. Of course you need a resistance to this, reality warping is the most powerful basic power in existence short of actual omniscience.

Soul attacks bypass physical defenses and attack an area vulnerable to most, the soul.

The elemental attacks need some specific resistances because of the varying affects they do, fire burns, ice freezes, and lightning surges through you.

Inspire Hate is your basic empathetic spell which causes whomever is affected by it to go berserk and attack allies. It is an empathetic attack, so mental resistance is required to stop it. However, your notion that even a being with mental resistance cannot stop it simply because of the fact that the spell is magical is flawed, illogical, and stupid. Despite being magic, it has a known effect, it targets your mind. Why would a being that has mental resistance not be able to resist it simply because it is magical? Simple answer, he would resist it, rather easily, being magical is meaningless when the effect is the same as a non-magical effect.



Although I really do not care who wins this fight, nor do I even think Sephiroth can resist the spell. "Willpower" is not enough of a reason to say he can resist the spell when he has never resisted something similar(to my knowledge).

it doesnt require a "special" resistance, it requires a resistance to it just like all spells, its not just Kain using his mind to change someone elses, having stronger willpower doesnt mean anything, Kain is not using his own willpower to use the spells effects, hes using a spell, which is why its absurd to think willpower is going to make a diffrence because willpower does not go into the creation of the spell, despite it changing a beings mind, its through another effect.

And inspire hate hits your mind with a spell, not with willpower or any kind of mental force, its magic spell, the fact its not a bolt of energy doesnt make a diffrence. No the effect is the same but to reverse the effect to defend against it you would have to have resistance against its element, its like trying to fight armour piercing rounds with light plates, its not the right defence regardless of the fact the spells effect affects the mind.

Originally posted by Burning thought
What do you call bullet blocking? a guy pointing a gun at you and fireing in the same direction while you have your sword in the way? the guys accuracy was terrible, as if that requires speed. A normal human with some concentration can move an object the size of Clouds sword in the path of a predicatable bullet.


A. He shoots at many different places, Head, Shoulders, Body, Legs.
B. Cloud moves his sword 90 degree angles to block bullets.
C. Cloud slashes his sword to block bullets. (Sharp side.)
D. No normal human could ever do this.
E. Yazoo missed one shot, you call that inaccurate.

Again, this is a feat of reflex that he can react to a bullet. This is much faster than anything Raziel or Kain has shown.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ofcourse its Tking cells, thats all blood is ,loose cells, kain would have to have control over the cells to keep the blood together otherwise it wouldnt be going towards him like that.


A. Blood is a fluid.
B. He doesn't move it at a cellular level, only at the fluid level.
C. It only works with blood, hence the name.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You have confusion with what is canon and what is not, I thnk your confused between gameplay whcih is usable, and gameplay mechanics, which are not taken into account in a debate due to their nature such as health bars, things in gameplay, e.g. items and powers dont always need a cinematic to state their canon, Kain drinking blood through TK is what he has always done, its a canon ability.


A. No you are confusing them, I use your inane rules to show how wrong you are.
B. Gameplay = Using Materia. Game Mechanics = All of the numbers behind the materia (cast time, damage, mp used etc)
C. Drinking blood != tking cells.


Originally posted by Burning thought
What are you talking about? not as much control? hes moving it..the fact he needs it in his body means nothing, he would send Sephiroths cells somewhere else, like spraying across the air or into Cloud for a joke.


A. He never moves any cells anywhere other than into him.
B. The 'Spell' is only meant for blood, and he is only seen doing it to blood.
C. The 'Spell' is used to replenish him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
And prove sephiroths will is greater than Kains.....Kain has incredible intellect and willpower....


A. Held back Holy.
B. Came back to life, several times.
C. He holds the knowledge of the Ancients.
D. Kains Will has no feats.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Against sephiroth or his cells? singulour they may be weak, you would have to prove their durabiliy, Kain has lightning, energy bolts, frost, flame, you name it, not that its relevent ofcourse, most of what he can do would destroy them and he could just toss them to the furthest reaches of the battlefield.

A. Sephiroth is made up of his cells. Obviously.
B. No single cell has ever been harmed on Sephiroths body.
C. No it wouldn't.
D. One of the reasons Sephiroth is so tough is because of his cells.

Originally posted by Burning thought
no you see Cloud and co are lifted up by Willpower, you cant assume Sephiroth is actually creating a physical force to lift them which would be what TK is doing, for all we know its some supernatural ability that he just happens to have.

A. Do you realise how insane that is then? He wouldn't have any limit on his Will. Because lifting a person wouldn't require anymore Will then crushing a planet because it has no measurement.
B. Will isn't a supernatural ability for most people, everyone practices Will every day.
C. We are talking about Will affecting things outside of the body.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Your talking as if Holy is alive, can you prove its alive? I am sorry but I dont have to go and buy your evidence, if you cant display the evidence in a way I can see it as an offical text its no good.

A. No, I am not. Holy can move.
B. I am not illegaly uploading a scan of a book just to prove something to you, go read the online english translation.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No you see your the one adding "kinetic" force to the statement, Sephiroth is just making it move, I dont know how and its all nice and well assuming he is creating some sort of TK effect, but tbh its not really relevent, he doesnt affect cells anyway.

A. So Will does something with nothing.
B. "Making it move" What does moving something entail then Burning Thought?
C. He can affect the things that cells make up.
D. if we went with your logic Will would be heaps better then TK, because it doesn't have any kind of measurement (like force, or action).

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats what I said before, 3-4 seconds, thats a long time to be standing around in a battle isnt it....when both your opponents with a wave of their hand could stop you from doing it.


A. No. Wave of what hand doing what?
B. 3 Seconds is fast enough against Kain or Raziel.

0-SZURW9YcE&feature=related

Originally posted by Burning thought
In this video at 4:04 Kain pretty much instantly (less than a second to be exact) creates the repel shield, one which reflects all spells and protects him from physical harm as well. immedialtey Team 1 are screwed. Then you have:


A. Gameplay mechanic.
B. Show me it taking the physical force that Sephiroth can dish out.
C. He lifts his hand up, that is enough for Sephiroth to cut it off.

Originally posted by Burning thought
gn3lMHTml2k

Here (5:07) you see Kain pretty much instantly on a whim blast Raziel with lightning, he didnt take 3 seconds or even close....


A. He brings his sword up, Sephiroth and Cloud can react to that and slice him apart when he is defenseless.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Now take into account Kain has a vast amount of such spells which he could obliterate this team with. hes also got reaver spells:

7LTpwokoywE&feature=related

At 0:43, take into account using the same power he can slow time, instantly teleport through dimension multiple times and cause that inspire hate I mentioned earlier.


A. Gameplay mechanic.
B. It doesn't seem powerful at all. It might knock Cloud back, but Sephiroth...
C. So now it is slow time? The amount that it slows is a gameplay mechanic. Lets see a Canon usage of it.
D. Inspire Hate == Sephiroth kills Cloud then Raziel and Kain, that is if it could even affect Sephiroth.
E. Why is Kain able to Inspire Hate before Sephiroth could create any Illusion to confuse Kain? Sephiroths reflexes and speed is greater then Kains.

Originally posted by Burning thought
lol nonsense, shot before he could think, the gunner was useless, he was slow and predictable. its the kind of shot James bond could regularly dodge. Now give Raziel a huge lump of metal like that sword and he wouldnt hardly have to do anything to stop those bullets.


A. Yazoo would shoot Bond in the face.
B. He would have to react, which he couldn't do. A bullet would hit him before he could think to react.
C. Yazoo isn't aiming at the sword! Stop trying to debate this. Stop trolling.
D. The size of the sword isn't as big as you say, go look at it!

Originally posted by Burning thought
wtf, where does it state he is controlling every limb? hell where did you get controlling from? all we hear from the team is that they feel like their being torn, nothing about him controlling the limbs at all, hes just lifting them and causing them pain a lot like how Kain does to Moebius. lmao, smaller than blood cells? dont be ridiculous....


A. They specifically say they con't control themselves. King-Fingfolfen already showed you this.
B. Body == the entire structure of an organism (an animal, plant, or human being); "he felt as if his whole body were on fire"
C. I didn't say that.

Originally posted by Burning thought
B: prove thos


Okay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN8CiSR_Muk&feature=related 4:25 (5:20 for the actualy teleportation)

Originally posted by Burning thought
D: if something is contained its force is next ot nothing as soon as its contained, it has zero momentum, like Cloud trying to run when Raziel has him floating about the ground...he wont get any momentum...


No, you are wrong. You are right it does have no momentum, but it can still have force. Yeah, in that case it is correct, because Cloud needs to have his legs on the ground or solid to move.

Originally posted by Burning thought
A. Prove this is what he did to holy


It was in a sphere shape, Holy was trying to accomplish its goal, but was stuck in Sephiroths will.

Originally posted by Burning thought
B. not seen the clip, ive not seen any teleportaton clip in this thread.


It is up there ^.

Originally posted by Burning thought
C. lol wtf, little mini sephiroths, now your assuming, reaching and making up rubbish, their tiny cells and regardless of his will excisting, you cannot prove it can bring up any force like its shown previously to stop Kain from abusing his cells.


Haha, no I am not, I was trying to explain it to you like you were a little child.
Yes, yes I can, cells cannot slip through any force, just because they are small, this idea is stupid, a cell cannot go through a solid object.

Originally posted by Burning thought
D. oh aye, he will.


How?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Unless you can point out why a magic spell whos effect is completly magical alteration would be stopped just because of some fools willpower? its like saying willpower will stop a fireball in the air..dont be daft...


A. Sephiroth stopped Holy with his will, which is by far more powerful then a simple fireball.
B. You are the one being daft, multiple times I have shown you Cloud moves his sword when deflecting the bullets, yet you keep saying he just keeps it in one spot.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain cant react to Raziels attacks? when lol, Kain has never actually fought Raziel in anger or with purpose to harm him s you dont know what your talking about, not that speed is relevent for characters who are being dispersed or frozen by TK and time slowing powers.


A. I never said he couldn't, try reading.
B. If only we went off what they are capable off instead of just what we have seen.
C. Kains TK is < Sephiroths Will.
D. Kains time slowing power is horrible, 1\4 their speed. Plus that is a gameplay mechanic (The amount it freezes them by)

Originally posted by Burning thought
Cutting and slashing ive shown, although tbh, Ive not seen any sword skills from Sephiroth beyond any typical swordsman, both human or otherwise so you would have to assume Kain is slower and weaker than a human before we can claim he is worse than Sephiroth.


A. The cutting and slashing that doesn't match Sephiroth in the slightest.
B. A typical swordsman could not slash his sword four times, in four different angles in a second.
C. No, you are just ignoring Sephiroths abilities.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thier still corpses, Kain for one has no heart and no real functions in his body, the power that keeps him moving would have to be overcome to stop Kain, thing is, Sephiroth has no way of stopping such magical forces, infact its unlikely their even magical but as i said, I doubt oyu can prove the dead are affected by this virus. And its important because lifestream is the source of beings in the FF world.


A. They are not dead.
B. What?
C. He isn't dead.
D. The virus just transforms organisms into Jenova monsters.
E. In the context of what you said: It had no relavence at all.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Stop complaining about having to repeat yourself when your doing the exact same thing to me, unless you want to concede on your points to move onto some new ones?


A. You are the one that says Cloud doesn't move his sword to stop the bullets when he does.
B. You are the one that says Sephiroth is a normal swordsman when he isn't, he is clearly much more.
C. You are the one that says Kain can control cells of an alien being that have their own instincts, which you can't prove.
D. You are the one that says Sephiroths will is nothing, when it has done more then Kain and Raziels TK put together.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The time powers I think ive shown you before, youve not seen Kains huge list of powers, they work in exactley the same way as the Repel shield I showed you earlier and Kains reaver blast, only ofcourse with diffrent effects after their casting.

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo1/spells.php

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo2/gifts.php

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/reaverkain.php

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/attackraz.php


The time power pales in comparison the the Time materia in FF 7, it is nothing and it its measurement is only in gameplay mechanics, just like the time materia.

So he throws his hand in the air for every spell? That is enough time for Sephiroth to fly several miles into the air, or to Kain.

His hand would need to be faster than a bullet moving to stop Sephiroth or Cloud from reacting to it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Where did it say that? and that still does not mean that its hard to control, hell all it required for it to be defeated is some cells from an alien entity, just because its the energy used in all these features does not make it powerful.

In canon he is rarely harmed and never killed, he cant be, and as shown by Defiance even things that should kill him outright cant. He is immortal and the wheel of life/death cannot take him either.

Whats weak assed about it? you dont know anything about it and Sephiroth has zero spel lresistance, news flash...its a spell, not just a mental attack whihc is why sephiroth would fail to it along with Cloud.

A. In several thousand cut scenes it talks about the lifestream, at the beginning of AC they talk about the lifestream, the lifestream is everything in FF 7.

B. You are making it seem like a bad feat.

C. It wasn't defeated, Sephiroth just gained control over it from the planet.

D. Yes, it is the source of all things, a persons strength and speed is from the lifestream, everything is from the lifestream, it can rip apart anything, because it makes everything.

E. Inspire Hate, will only make Sephiroth kill Cloud, Kain wouldn't gain anything more from doing that IF he could do it on Sephiroth.

Originally posted by Burning thought
its a spell/magic force making it happen, thus, you would have to be able to stop the magic force from happening, which Sephiroth cannot do. The fact the magic is making his mind think something diffrent, even if we assume he does actually contiously somehow figuire out Kain has just instantly confused his mind with some insidious skill (obvoulsy he wouldnt know in reality) then he still does not have it within his means to stop the magic from affecting his mind, if it was just a psychic power then maybe he could but no, not if its a spell, he has no resistance.

He has stopped much more powerful magical forces, for example Holy, it could destroy planets, compare that to Inspire Hate.

So, what can Kain or Raziel do against the Jenova Virus, Sephiroths Will, Sephiroths sword or Sephiroths illusions?

Jeez, Killer, way to walk in with your guns loaded.. I'm not even reading all of that, cause I don't care who wins, but watching TGE and BT reply to it will provide me with hours of sadistic joy. Well played, sir.

I'm not replying to him nor the deluded fanboy.

Originally posted by K1ll3r
A. He shoots at many different places, Head, Shoulders, Body, Legs.
B. Cloud moves his sword 90 degree angles to block bullets.
C. Cloud slashes his sword to block bullets. (Sharp side.)
D. No normal human could ever do this.
E. Yazoo missed one shot, you call that inaccurate.

Again, this is a feat of reflex that he can react to a bullet. This is much faster than anything Raziel or Kain has shown.



A. Blood is a fluid.
B. He doesn't move it at a cellular level, only at the fluid level.
C. It only works with blood, hence the name.



A. No you are confusing them, I use your inane rules to show how wrong you are.
B. Gameplay = Using Materia. Game Mechanics = All of the numbers behind the materia (cast time, damage, mp used etc)
C. Drinking blood != tking cells.




A. He never moves any cells anywhere other than into him.
B. The 'Spell' is only meant for blood, and he is only seen doing it to blood.
C. The 'Spell' is used to replenish him.




A. Held back Holy.
B. Came back to life, several times.
C. He holds the knowledge of the Ancients.
D. Kains Will has no feats.



A. Sephiroth is made up of his cells. Obviously.
B. No single cell has ever been harmed on Sephiroths body.
C. No it wouldn't.
D. One of the reasons Sephiroth is so tough is because of his cells.



A. Do you realise how insane that is then? He wouldn't have any limit on his Will. Because lifting a person wouldn't require anymore Will then crushing a planet because it has no measurement.
B. Will isn't a supernatural ability for most people, everyone practices Will every day.
C. We are talking about Will affecting things outside of the body.



A. No, I am not. Holy can move.
B. I am not illegaly uploading a scan of a book just to prove something to you, go read the online english translation.



A. So Will does something with nothing.
B. "Making it move" What does moving something entail then Burning Thought?
C. He can affect the things that cells make up.
D. if we went with your logic Will would be heaps better then TK, because it doesn't have any kind of measurement (like force, or action).



A. No. Wave of what hand doing what?
B. 3 Seconds is fast enough against Kain or Raziel.

0-SZURW9YcE&feature=related



A. Gameplay mechanic.
B. Show me it taking the physical force that Sephiroth can dish out.
C. He lifts his hand up, that is enough for Sephiroth to cut it off.



A. He brings his sword up, Sephiroth and Cloud can react to that and slice him apart when he is defenseless.



A. Gameplay mechanic.
B. It doesn't seem powerful at all. It might knock Cloud back, but Sephiroth...
C. So now it is slow time? The amount that it slows is a gameplay mechanic. Lets see a Canon usage of it.
D. Inspire Hate == Sephiroth kills Cloud then Raziel and Kain, that is if it could even affect Sephiroth.
E. Why is Kain able to Inspire Hate before Sephiroth could create any Illusion to confuse Kain? Sephiroths reflexes and speed is greater then Kains.



A. Yazoo would shoot Bond in the face.
B. He would have to react, which he couldn't do. A bullet would hit him before he could think to react.
C. Yazoo isn't aiming at the sword! Stop trying to debate this. Stop trolling.
D. The size of the sword isn't as big as you say, go look at it!



A. They specifically say they con't control themselves. King-Fingfolfen already showed you this.
B. Body == the entire structure of an organism (an animal, plant, or human being); "he felt as if his whole body were on fire"
C. I didn't say that.



Okay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN8CiSR_Muk&feature=related 4:25 (5:20 for the actualy teleportation)



No, you are wrong. You are right it does have no momentum, but it can still have force. Yeah, in that case it is correct, because Cloud needs to have his legs on the ground or solid to move.



It was in a sphere shape, Holy was trying to accomplish its goal, but was stuck in Sephiroths will.



It is up there ^.


A: doesnt stop the fact that Clouds sword is large AND the guy is predictable, and hes not aiming at those place,s his poor accuracy sends the bullets in the general direction,infact a lot of the bullets Cloud takes with his sword would be avoided fairly easily since their course is not accurate.

C. What time in the video does this happen, idont remember him doing that.

Reaction speed is not the same as movement speed, being able to react ot someone ripping you apart with TK, tearing your soul out, freezing you in time is useless.

-------------------------------

A+B

Theres no such thing as "fluid level" in TK control since he would still have to keep control of all the cells and moving them into place without the whole mass thats coming towards him spraying to the floor, it would be impssible.

C. false, it does not have a name, you must be confusing kains TK with the spell named blood shower which drains the blood of all beings in the area.


-----------------------------

I did not use any in-game rules, game mechanics are mechanics that are put in place for the gameplay, health bars, numbers, Kain drinking blood is not a gameplay mechanic, its an actual ability and is nothing to do with gameplay, numbers etc.

Are you under the illusion that the only things that excist are those in some form of cinematic?

------------------------------


So you admit he moves cells...and thats a stupid statement, only to him? yes because its blood and its what he drinks, hes not going to move Jenova cells to him is he...no....

By your logic I would lose my abiltiy to walk, see, touch, smell etc as soon as I step foot in china because ive never been there? no logic...dont be daft.

Yes the spell, I am talking about TK.....

---------------------------------

Kains will has no feats? what a foolish statement, everything Kain does is part of his will, his willpower to continue on his destiny changing, his thousands and thousands of years knowledge....his will could easily be beyond Sephiroths queer mind and hes obvioulsy miles more intelligent considering how Sephiroth reacts with Cloud and is defeated by Cloud so many times despite apprently having so many powers.

And holding back holy....an unkown force at the time..great...

---------------------------


lmao, his never been hit according to you then you claim the reason why he is tough is because of his body, he has no feats of toughness or durability, he is worthless, thus why Kain would have an easy job of picking him apart.

----------------------------

A: something not having a measurement does not make it limitless, we have to base Sephirtohs strength with his willpower to the degree of his feats, which is lifting up Cloud and co...
--------------------------------


Sure it can move but how could you possibly know Holy was constantly trying to move, constantly trying to escape and if it was, its momentum and force would be nothing because its not moving while sephiroth is keeping it stuck.

---------------------------------

As I said before we have to go by his feats, assuming he has infnite power because he does not have a measruement is as it implies, assuming, which is bullshit ofcourse, may as well use fan fictions.

------------------------------------


A: Tk, one wave of the hand and Cloud or Sephiroth wil be on their asses, and they would have to start trying to cast a spell again....too long, so neither will cast spells.
B: Wave of his hand>3 seconds by far and wide....

------------------------------------

Its not, as i said your confused with whats a gameplay mechanic and whats gameplay.

And physical force? dont be daft, Sephiroth has made very little physical forces, and by canon that shield can take anything, its powered by Kains magic, which is infnite, you do the math. if that shield goes up, Cloud and sephiroth will be defeated by Kains bare hands...

---------------------------------

Being able to react to something and being able to actually move to stop something are two very different things, and Kain moves quicker doing that than either of them in actual sword skills.

---------------------------------

Ill wait until you understand what the diffrence is between gameplay, and a gameplay mechanic, as well as what is, and what is not canon, the entire game is canon to the series of LOK, what you think actually happened or not is based on the storyline and things that are not changed by the player, e.g. abilities such as slowing Sephiroth in time.

-----------------------------------

Teleportation=sluggish appearing since when? you also cannot account for how long it took for him to teleport, infact you dont even know if that was a teleport at all, it could be one of those illusions you keep going on about, he may have already been there and he was tricking them...

Originally posted by K1ll3r
Haha, no I am not, I was trying to explain it to you like you were a little child.
Yes, yes I can, cells cannot slip through any force, just because they are small, this idea is stupid, a cell cannot go through a solid object.



How?



A. Sephiroth stopped Holy with his will, which is by far more powerful then a simple fireball.
B. You are the one being daft, multiple times I have shown you Cloud moves his sword when deflecting the bullets, yet you keep saying he just keeps it in one spot.



A. I never said he couldn't, try reading.
B. If only we went off what they are capable off instead of just what we have seen.
C. Kains TK is < Sephiroths Will.
D. Kains time slowing power is horrible, 1\4 their speed. Plus that is a gameplay mechanic (The amount it freezes them by)



A. The cutting and slashing that doesn't match Sephiroth in the slightest.
B. A typical swordsman could not slash his sword four times, in four different angles in a second.
C. No, you are just ignoring Sephiroths abilities.



A. They are not dead.
B. What?
C. He isn't dead.
D. The virus just transforms organisms into Jenova monsters.
E. In the context of what you said: It had no relavence at all.



A. You are the one that says Cloud doesn't move his sword to stop the bullets when he does.
B. You are the one that says Sephiroth is a normal swordsman when he isn't, he is clearly much more.
C. You are the one that says Kain can control cells of an alien being that have their own instincts, which you can't prove.
D. You are the one that says Sephiroths will is nothing, when it has done more then Kain and Raziels TK put together.



The time power pales in comparison the the Time materia in FF 7, it is nothing and it its measurement is only in gameplay mechanics, just like the time materia.

So he throws his hand in the air for every spell? That is enough time for Sephiroth to fly several miles into the air, or to Kain.

His hand would need to be faster than a bullet moving to stop Sephiroth or Cloud from reacting to it.



A. In several thousand cut scenes it talks about the lifestream, at the beginning of AC they talk about the lifestream, the lifestream is everything in FF 7.

B. You are making it seem like a bad feat.

C. It wasn't defeated, Sephiroth just gained control over it from the planet.

D. Yes, it is the source of all things, a persons strength and speed is from the lifestream, everything is from the lifestream, it can rip apart anything, because it makes everything.

E. Inspire Hate, will only make Sephiroth kill Cloud, Kain wouldn't gain anything more from doing that IF he could do it on Sephiroth.



He has stopped much more powerful magical forces, for example Holy, it could destroy planets, compare that to Inspire Hate.

So, what can Kain or Raziel do against the Jenova Virus, Sephiroths Will, Sephiroths sword or Sephiroths illusions?

Then dont, its pathetic, makes you seem at that childish level and furthermore doesnt help. Sephiroth power is not solid, furthermore you did not answer my question, you cannot prove Sephiroth can use his powers of will such as stopping other objects or opponents from abusing his cells when he is fragmented, if that were the case he wouldnt bother reforming and would stay as a spirit or w/e.

Using the same power he uses to stop blood from spraying everywhere, he will concentrate on Sephiroths cells and pull them apart, plain and simple.

Were talking about actual willpower dude, i.e, a real humans willpower, not Sephirtohs strange alteration of Willpower that has effects of TK.

I dont remember saying he keeps it in one spot, although thats not what I am getting at regardless, Ime saying he has to do very little to stop bullets with a large sword or object for his defence. If he was doing the same with masurmane or w/e sephiroths sword is called it would be more impressive yet still irrelvent to his defence against Kain or Raziel.

You wouldnt want that, Kain would wipe out the Final fantasy unvierse with ease.....although in a real battle we DO USE what their capable of, what we have seen is just better evidence but not the only evidence.

Thats because a typical swordsman does not have Sephiroths genetic speed boost, but his skills are exactley the same, its fairly simple techinque.

No your just ignoring Kains.

Their both dead silly...the fact their walking about does not change that...

I could turn all 4 of these the other way around and claim your constantly claiming the opposite....we will still be in the same place....Cloud is a being, a much larger one who has his own instincts, that doesnt stop Raziel from tossing him about like a rag doll....these a tiny cells on the other hand...

The time power pales in comparison? how so? it freezes them solid (the single target version) or slows them (area version) and furthermore it does not take hours to cast! unlike slow FF spells.

fly several miles? lol......in a fanfiction perhaps.

No his hand would have to be faster than a bullet IF his goal was to hit them with his hand.....thing is he is not, he is casting a spell which their reaction times would be made irrelvent to.

Fine he doesnt need inspire hate, although tbh I only mentioned it because I thot this was the battle royale thread, Kain can kill both Cloud and Sephiroth by himself, he doesnt need them in-fighting.

lmao BS, it barely defeated meteor, destroy planets altho thats physical force, nothing to do with stopping a spell from messing up his mind, its a diffrent effect.

The sword and will are nothing but physical forces, the will has done as much as made people float in the air and add some mild control all of which Kain could stop himself with a teleport, and the sword will never reach Kain or Raziel. Sephiroths illusions are not likely to work at all, a psychic in Blood omen who could control hordes of humans completly (far more powerful than illusion) tried to enter Kains mind and all he could possibly do was read Kains most obvious thoughts, Kain is not tricked by illusion. take into account that was the least intelligent and least powerful Kain.

What can Sephiroth do against Kains TK? regardless of whether you think Kain can split Sephiroth apart or not it would still stop him from casting any powers and from moving, he wouldnt be able to build up any real speed or to close the distacne.

What can sephiroth do against being slowed/forzen in time?

Lightning would prob blast sephirtoh to bits as well.

And Sephiroth would never stop Kain from casting repel shield, making hin invulerable.

Hell Sephiroths soul is his most vulerable, Kains sword will hunger for it, as will Kains spells, many of which can rip out souls.


Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
I'm not replying to the deluded fanboy.

Dont be daft, why would Screampaste assume you would reply to yourself.....

This is getting funnier and funnier.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I'm a deluded Kain fanboy who thinks he is better than he is because in actuality I know I am a sad, ignorant, failure of a human being. I'm sorry to hear that.

Although to be serious, must I actually count up your fanboyish claims?

Fact 1
Kain and Raziel are not able to react to a bullet, compared to Cloud and Sephiroth who can and do so with ease. Sephiroth is able to move at speeds faster than a bullet, as Cloud has trouble keeping up with him and we can see Loz moving as fast as a bullet and Loz is not as fast as Sephiroth. Sephiroth also moves several miles in a second in the fight with Genesis.

Fact 1 References:
Final Fantasy: Advent Children
Final Fantasy: Crisis Core
Final Fantasy Advent Children Reunion Files

Fact 2
Sephiroth and Cloud are both capable of holding up 100+ pounds, while also throwing the object miles away, and through building walls.

Fact 2 References
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core

Fact 3
Sephiroth has held a force capable of lifting 1800(2150) tons worth of airship, thousands of miles into the air, and that could destroy planets, with his Will. Sephiroth can also lift 1000+ pounds into the air. Sephiroth can also pull down several tons worth of building.

Fact 3 References
Final Fantasy VII: Ultimania Omega
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children

Fact 4
Sephiroth is now Jenova, meaning he has all of the abilities of Jenova.

Mimic: Allows Sephiroth to read the minds of beings, especially memories.

Regeneration: Allows Sephiroths cells to come back together, to come back to original form.

Planet Travel: Jenova used planets that it took over as vessels to travel to other planets, Sephiroth can now do this.

Shape Shift: Sephiroth has shown to be able to shape shift a tentacle into a full body, really anything that is needed, for example something someone has memories of, Sephiroth can be. This is apart of the Mimic ability.

Jenova Virus: This will transform the organism injected with it, into a monster under the control of Sephiroth (Also insane).

Fact 4 References
Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega - Page 112, 210 - 213,
Final Fantasy VII

Fact 5
Sephiroth has the entire knowledge of the ancients, plus at least half of a planets Lifestream, this means his mind contains everything inside of every Materia, and he has his own power source of which to use the Materia, so he basically can use ANY Materia.

Fact 5 References
Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega - Page 216 - 217
Final Fantasy VII Advent Children Reunion Files
Final Fantasy VII

Fact 6
Sephiroth has survived being slammed through buildings walls, and forces that have crumpled metal beneath him meaning, his durability is not zero.

Sephiroth is also impervious to fire.

Fact 6 References
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core

Fact 7

Sephiroth is able to teleport, although it takes him a second to phase in. A bit like Kains teleportation, where the bright light phases him in and out.

Fact 7 Reference

Final Fantasy VII

Burning Thought:

1. Compare Kains Telekinesis and magical capabilities to Sephiroths Will and magical capabilities.
2. Compare Kains durability feats with Sephiroths durability feats.
3. Compare Kains fighting skill (Skill meaning, his speed, accuracy and strength with a sword) to Sephiroths.
4. Compare Kains reflexes to Sephiroths.
5. Compare Kains movement speed to Sephiroths.
6. Whatever you can add.

IMO:

1. Sephiroths Will > Kains Telekinesis. Kains magical capabilities > Sephiroths (Although only because he is able to cast his faster, Sephiroth has a lot of magic at his disposal even more than Kain)
2. I don't know enough about Kain on this.
3. Sephiroths fighting skill > Kains.
4. Sephiroths reflexes > Kains.
5. Sephiroths movement speed > Kains (even faster than his reflexes).

I am willing to accept Kain winning if you can prove it, as from what I have seen he is nothing to Sephiroth (Except in magical ways, he is better (cast time)).

I would like you to stop trying to downplay Clouds feat of reacting to bullets, you are clearly in denial, he only moves his sword after a bullet is shot, and he does move his sword, it is a feat and it is a great one.

Also, stop trying to say that Kains affinity over blood is affinity over everything. Blood just happens to contain cells, plasma, platelets, oxygen and other incredibly small things, just as a body happens to contain cells and other incredibly small things (and even blood).

Defintion of blood from wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn:

The fluid (red in vertebrates) that is pumped through the body by the heart and contains plasma, blood cells, and platelets; "blood carries oxygen ...

Also from what I have seen and read (from your sources) Kain seems to send his magic out in projectile form.

Edit

I forgot to add, Cloud can be stopped by Telekinesis fairly easily because he can't produce momentum without a solid object to push against first, compared to Sephiroth who can fly, so he doesn't need a solid object to push against.

Holy was destroying metoer, and the act of holies power was going to destroy the planet.

(You trying to talk about infinite power and will) I didn't say he had infinite power, I said using your logic it is immeasurable and therefore 0 = everything for Sephiroths Will, we need a way to measure it to define 'more power' in Will. E.g. Force is the physical manifestation of Sephiroths Will, just like Loz, Yazoo and Kadaj which is what I am saying.

Originally posted by K1ll3r
Fact 1
Kain and Raziel are not able to react to a bullet, compared to Cloud and Sephiroth who can and do so with ease. Sephiroth is able to move at speeds faster than a bullet, as Cloud has trouble keeping up with him and we can see Loz moving as fast as a bullet and Loz is not as fast as Sephiroth. Sephiroth also moves several miles in a second in the fight with Genesis.

Fact 1 References:
Final Fantasy: Advent Children
Final Fantasy: Crisis Core
Final Fantasy Advent Children Reunion Files

Fact 2
Sephiroth and Cloud are both capable of holding up 100+ pounds, while also throwing the object miles away, and through building walls.

Fact 2 References
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core

Fact 3
Sephiroth has held a force capable of lifting 1800(2150) tons worth of airship, thousands of miles into the air, and that could destroy planets, with his Will. Sephiroth can also lift 1000+ pounds into the air. Sephiroth can also pull down several tons worth of building.

Fact 3 References
Final Fantasy VII: Ultimania Omega
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children

Fact 4
Sephiroth is now Jenova, meaning he has all of the abilities of Jenova.

Mimic: Allows Sephiroth to read the minds of beings, especially memories.

Regeneration: Allows Sephiroths cells to come back together, to come back to original form.

Planet Travel: Jenova used planets that it took over as vessels to travel to other planets, Sephiroth can now do this.

Shape Shift: Sephiroth has shown to be able to shape shift a tentacle into a full body, really anything that is needed, for example something someone has memories of, Sephiroth can be. This is apart of the Mimic ability.

Jenova Virus: This will transform the organism injected with it, into a monster under the control of Sephiroth (Also insane).

Fact 4 References
Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega - Page 112, 210 - 213,
Final Fantasy VII

Fact 5
Sephiroth has the entire knowledge of the ancients, plus at least half of a planets Lifestream, this means his mind contains everything inside of every Materia, and he has his own power source of which to use the Materia, so he basically can use ANY Materia.

Fact 5 References
Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega - Page 216 - 217
Final Fantasy VII Advent Children Reunion Files
Final Fantasy VII

Fact 6
Sephiroth has survived being slammed through buildings walls, and forces that have crumpled metal beneath him meaning, his durability is not zero.

Sephiroth is also impervious to fire.

Fact 6 References
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core

Fact 7

Sephiroth is able to teleport, although it takes him a second to phase in. A bit like Kains teleportation, where the bright light phases him in and out.

Fact 7 Reference

Final Fantasy VII

Burning Thought:

1. Compare Kains Telekinesis and magical capabilities to Sephiroths Will and magical capabilities.
2. Compare Kains durability feats with Sephiroths durability feats.
3. Compare Kains fighting skill (Skill meaning, his speed, accuracy and strength with a sword) to Sephiroths.
4. Compare Kains reflexes to Sephiroths.
5. Compare Kains movement speed to Sephiroths.
6. Whatever you can add.

IMO:

1. Sephiroths Will > Kains Telekinesis. Kains magical capabilities > Sephiroths (Although only because he is able to cast his faster, Sephiroth has a lot of magic at his disposal even more than Kain)
2. I don't know enough about Kain on this.
3. Sephiroths fighting skill > Kains.
4. Sephiroths reflexes > Kains.
5. Sephiroths movement speed > Kains (even faster than his reflexes).

I am willing to accept Kain winning if you can prove it, as from what I have seen he is nothing to Sephiroth (Except in magical ways, he is better (cast time)).

I would like you to stop trying to downplay Clouds feat of reacting to bullets, you are clearly in denial, he only moves his sword after a bullet is shot, and he does move his sword, it is a feat and it is a great one.

Also, stop trying to say that Kains affinity over blood is affinity over everything. Blood just happens to contain cells, plasma, platelets, oxygen and other incredibly small things, just as a body happens to contain cells and other incredibly small things (and even blood).

Defintion of blood from wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn:

The fluid (red in vertebrates) that is pumped through the body by the heart and contains plasma, blood cells, and platelets; "blood carries oxygen ...

Also from what I have seen and read (from your sources) Kain seems to send his magic out in projectile form.

Edit

I forgot to add, Cloud can be stopped by Telekinesis fairly easily because he can't produce momentum without a solid object to push against first, compared to Sephiroth who can fly, so he doesn't need a solid object to push against.

Holy was destroying metoer, and the act of holies power was going to destroy the planet.

(You trying to talk about infinite power and will) I didn't say he had infinite power, I said using your logic it is immeasurable and therefore 0 = everything for Sephiroths Will, we need a way to measure it to define 'more power' in Will. E.g. Force is the physical manifestation of Sephiroths Will, just like Loz, Yazoo and Kadaj which is what I am saying.

Show me this several miles, or quote the video if youve got it in this thread as well as the time it happesn. And a lot of people can react to a bullet, whther their reaction allows them to do something to it to stop it is the question but its irrelvent here, being able to react to a bullet coming at you and actually being as quick as one are two diffrent things entirely.

Fact 3: unfortunatley the power of said force was not present when Sephiroth was holding it.

Fact 4:

Not necesserily true, he may be Jenova but that does not mean he has all the powers and abilities of it.

Fact 5:

Only in a fan fiction bucko, he only has the energy that creates matera, but not the ability to actually create the materia itself, despite having a piece of bread and an electrical outlet, he still does not have a toaster.

Fact 6: Zero in comparison to most other fictonal characters debated in this forum.

Fact 7:

Assuming that was a teleport, we dont actually know how long it took him to start teleporting, for all you know he had been sitting on the other side of his teleport casting the spell for 5 seconds or w/e before he actually teleported.

1. Kains TK has actually held physical objects both human sized and miniscule (blood cells), Sephiroths "willpower" has held Holy which has unkown force and mass at the point of him actually holding it and Cloud and co.

2. Kain is pretty much immune in this area, hes had Raziels high strength as pointed out in my Bio do nothing to his body and can survive with major damage to his form. Not ot mention he wouldnt have to take a hit anyway.

3. From shown sources Sephiroth is a faster sword wielder, but has no selection of major skills that put him above kains, their still simple sword attacks I have seen from both, although in factual information, Kain has lived and used with a sword for thousands, if not tens of thousands of years, so he is undoubtably the more experianced and therefore the better. Although to be fair, one strike of Kains sword would leave Sephiroth on the ground and disarmed.

4. Sephiroth is superior by feats

5. Sephiroth but not by much, Kain has shown speeds over fair distances of nigh instant movement and to be fair Sephiroths speed will be nullified because of Kains time powers.

6. Kains vast powers and abilities mean that he will be untouchable, his teleportion is near instant with the dimention reaver and he could make massive distance between him and his foes meaning none of them could assail him if he does not want them to, his mist form means physical attacks are almost useless and his repel shield makes almost everything useless. Taing into account with a gesture or a hand movement he could have both Cloud and sephiroth defeated, they cant win.

The only way Sephiroth has more magic is if Kain allows him to, other than that, Kain as a balance guardian can regulate magic, he wouldnt allow Sephiroth to use magic even if he just sat and allowed whatever long cast time is required.

If he can move all those cells which he would without doubt have to then he can do the same to other cells, theres no logic or reasoning why he could not use his TK to do the same to Sephiroths cells as he does to blood.

Only in gameplay mechanic, infact most of his spells have no projectile such as blood shower, spirit death. The only major one that has a projectile in game mechanics is the time bolt. But he doesnt need that even if we were using gameplay mechanics because he could use his time reaver to have a slowing effect and then follow up with his time bolt.

Meteor was going to destroy the planet, can you show me it saying Holy could destroy the planet.

lol

lmao

Kain is nowhere near as fast as Zack, let alone Sephiroth.

But yeah Holy has actually never to my recollection been stated to be able to destroy the planet.

Sephiroth has little to no feats of speed

Other than blitzing Zack, who is much faster than bullets?

See the Cloud vs mediv thread, dodging bullets is not the same as being as quick as them, a bullet still has to travel distance to reach its target giving an opponent time if their senses are accurate enough to determine its flight path, bullets do not move to match a moving target, they follow their straight path despite their speed. Although I can still play the PIS trumpet on Sephiroth blitzing or even Zack escpaing bullets since fans like to trumpet on about how Cloud beating sephiroth is PIS.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Show me this several miles, or quote the video if youve got it in this thread as well as the time it happesn. And a lot of people can react to a bullet, whther their reaction allows them to do something to it to stop it is the question but its irrelvent here, being able to react to a bullet coming at you and actually being as quick as one are two diffrent things entirely.


In the fight with Genesis and Angeal, he slams Genesis several miles into the air, then he flies up to him, in a second, then he hits Genisis back down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4 2:12 - 2:13. Then at 2:18 you see how high he went. There is many other places where Sephiroth moves this fast.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Fact 3: unfortunatley the power of said force was not present when Sephiroth was holding it.


Holy had a force, it's force, if it didn't have a force it wouldn't have moved at all when it was released.

Even without Holy, Sephiroth has lifted more than Kain with his Will, and has shown a LOT of control with it(affecting up to 32 limbs of 8 different beings).

Originally posted by Burning thought
Fact 4:

Not necesserily true, he may be Jenova but that does not mean he has all the powers and abilities of it.


Why wouldn't it be?

Yes it is true, it is stated and demonstrated several times throughout FF 7, and in the Ultimania Omega. He has all of the abilities because he IS JENOVA. Your logic doesn't make sense, "This camera is a camera, but that doesn't mean it can take photos." (If he didn't have the abilities of Jenova, he wouldn't be Jenova).

Originally posted by Burning thought
Fact 5:

Only in a fan fiction bucko, he only has the energy that creates matera, but not the ability to actually create the materia itself, despite having a piece of bread and an electrical outlet, he still does not have a toaster.


He doesn't need to create Materia, and yes he has the ability, as he has the knowledge of the Ancients, and they created Materia:

Energy: Negative Lifestream
Bread and Toaster: Knowledge of the Ancients.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Fact 6: Zero in comparison to most other fictonal characters debated in this forum.


No, it isn't zero, I haven't seen Kain take the force necessary to crumple metal in a several metre radius with the metal being several metres thick.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Fact 7:

Assuming that was a teleport, we dont actually know how long it took him to start teleporting, for all you know he had been sitting on the other side of his teleport casting the spell for 5 seconds or w/e before he actually teleported.


Fair enough, we only know Sephiroth can randomly fade in.

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. Kains TK has actually held physical objects both human sized and miniscule (blood cells), Sephiroths "willpower" has held Holy which has unkown force and mass at the point of him actually holding it and Cloud and co.


Yes to the human sized, no to the miniscule, he has manipulated blood, blood cells just happen to be apart of the blood. Sephiroths will has held more pounds worth of weight then Kain, and has demonstrated a very high level of control with it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
2. Kain is pretty much immune in this area, hes had Raziels high strength as pointed out in my Bio do nothing to his body and can survive with major damage to his form. Not ot mention he wouldnt have to take a hit anyway.


He isn't immune, there is a reason he carries a sword and has a shield spell. Yes, his body can withstand to lift a lot of wieght, but that doesn't mean he cannot be hurt with a sword.

Originally posted by Burning thought
3. From shown sources Sephiroth is a faster sword wielder, but has no selection of major skills that put him above kains, their still simple sword attacks I have seen from both, although in factual information, Kain has lived and used with a sword for thousands, if not tens of thousands of years, so he is undoubtably the more experianced and therefore the better. Although to be fair, one strike of Kains sword would leave Sephiroth on the ground and disarmed.


You are mistaking skill with abilities, skill being Accuracy, Speed, Strength etc with a sword. Abilities would be Octaslash and Blade Beam.
So Sephiroth is more skill with a sword, it doesn't matter about Kain being alive that long, Sephiroth is just exceptional because of the way he was created. Sephiroth has taken very powerful sword attacks without it making him strain (For example Genesis slamming him down into the metal of the Junon cannon, which is a very very thick metal.).

Originally posted by Burning thought
4. Sephiroth is superior by feats


Sweet.

Originally posted by Burning thought
5. Sephiroth but not by much, Kain has shown speeds over fair distances of nigh instant movement and to be fair Sephiroths speed will be nullified because of Kains time powers.


Allright, his time powers aren't the be all and end all of this fight.

Originally posted by Burning thought
6. Kains vast powers and abilities mean that he will be untouchable, his teleportion is near instant with the dimention reaver and he could make massive distance between him and his foes meaning none of them could assail him if he does not want them to, his mist form means physical attacks are almost useless and his repel shield makes almost everything useless. Taing into account with a gesture or a hand movement he could have both Cloud and sephiroth defeated, they cant win.


He isn't untouchable, otherwise he wouldn't bother with a sword at all. I haven't seen his Dimension reaver in action, I did read about it in the link you gave. Running away could just as easily be accomplished by Sephiroth. His mist form isn't as powerful as you make it out to be, he uses it as a stealth thing and he doesn't become mist, he more melds into it. Yeah, his repel shield is pretty insane, but that doesn't mean he wins. Kains TK is nowhere near as good as Sephiroths, even not counting the Holy feat.

Originally posted by Burning thought
The only way Sephiroth has more magic is if Kain allows him to, other than that, Kain as a balance guardian can regulate magic, he wouldnt allow Sephiroth to use magic even if he just sat and allowed whatever long cast time is required.


Even though the way both universes handle magic is completely different? Kain cannot control Sephiroths negative lifestream or will.

Originally posted by Burning thought
If he can move all those cells which he would without doubt have to then he can do the same to other cells, theres no logic or reasoning why he could not use his TK to do the same to Sephiroths cells as he does to blood.

He doesn't move the cells, only the blood.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Only in gameplay mechanic, infact most of his spells have no projectile such as blood shower, spirit death. The only major one that has a projectile in game mechanics is the time bolt. But he doesnt need that even if we were using gameplay mechanics because he could use his time reaver to have a slowing effect and then follow up with his time bolt.

Fair enough, but the time slow can't be defined outside of game play (1/4 the speed? c'mon!).

Originally posted by Burning thought
Meteor was going to destroy the planet, can you show me it saying Holy could destroy the planet.

Meteor was only going to severely wound the planet, to let more of the Lifestream flow allowing Sephiroth to absorb it. Although it is capable of destroying the planet.

I said, it was the action of Holy destroying Meteor that was going to destroy the planet, because Meteor was too close. Nanaki talks about it in the final video sequence: "Holy is having the opposite affect, forget Midgar, we gotta worry about the whole planet!". Holy still has the force capable of pushing the 1800(not fully loaded) airship thousands of miles into the air, and holy's movement was held back by Sephiroth.

"However, Holy's movement was being held back by the wicked will of Sephiroth, who had called Meteor."

Quote from Ultimania Omega. There are many quotes like this in the game.