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Caedus Vs. Bane

Takes place in the clearing on Lehon where the Temple used to be. (It is flat now. Just grass.)

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Caedus Vs. Bane

Takes place in the clearing on Lehon where the Temple used to be. (It is flat now. Just grass.)

Bane! Bane has mastered ALL lighsabers forms, can manipulate sub atomic particles and his obalisk armor arguments his abilities and makes him immune to attacks in most areas. In fact, I think that bane could probably take a majority vs LOTF Luke, DE Sidious and ROTS Yoda at once, although it would be close. One on one, only Revan, Malak or Nihilus could stand up to ROT Bane.

(note: this is sarcasm Rex so please don't ban me)

In a straight lightsaber fight - Maul has more than a good chance of defeating Bane. Where does it say that Bane knows Juyo? He's a huge man thus Juyo wouldn't suit him, but Djem So does. Wait - are we taking about Bane with orbalisks or not?

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
In a straight lightsaber fight - Maul has more than a good chance of defeating Bane. Where does it say that Bane knows Juyo? He's a huge man thus Juyo wouldn't suit him, but Djem So does. Wait - are we taking about Bane with orbalisks or not?

...Maul?

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
In a straight lightsaber fight - Maul has more than a good chance of defeating Bane. Where does it say that Bane knows Juyo? He's a huge man thus Juyo wouldn't suit him, but Djem So does. Wait - are we taking about Bane with orbalisks or not?

Either way, during PoD he learns and becomes proficient in all seven forms- later (during RoT) feeling confident enough to teach even a form he did not specialize in. He knows Juyo, even if he doesn't use it.

Bane @ peak as per SWVF rules = Bane with Orbalisks


HWKA: Wut?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Either way, during PoD he learns and becomes proficient in all seven forms- later (during RoT) feeling confident enough to teach even a form he did not specialize in. He knows Juyo, even if he doesn't use it.

Bane @ peak as per SWVF rules = Bane with Orbalisks


HWKA: Wut?

This is CAEDUS vs Bane...or are you refering to by noobaris post?

RN starts thread !!

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
This is CAEDUS vs Bane...or are you refering to by noobaris post?
Caedus is going to get owned so bad it'll be the equivalent of him jumping in front of the Death Star's attack on Alderaan!

Bane managed to hold off a Blademaster empowered by Battle Meditation and the guy no body likes.

Master of all seven forms, Caedus is not.

The Only way I can see Caedus winning this is if he manages to break through Banes Force Barrier and shocks those Orbalisks.

Game Over, Caedus.

Wait, CAEDUS isn't a saber master? Guy who taking on four Jedi at once including Kle Katarn and WINNING? Guy who was held as, aside from Luke, the best swordsman in the galaxy? Come on, he's got a chance and it's a good one. Master of the saber Caedus most definitely is.

So is Bane.

Yes, which is why the arguments most people are using here that Bane is a master as if Caedus isn't?

I never said that. That's also a stupid argument. In my mind they are practically even, although Caedus knows more esoteric techniques.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, which is why the arguments most people are using here that Bane is a master as if Caedus isn't?

Bane is easily one of the most powerful of the sith. He has master over all force powers and saber forms known, and beat Kas'im - who could tool Yoda - when he wasn't even in his prime. He could also move so fast that force sensitives couldn't see him, something Yoda doesn't seem to have in the movies.

(note: this is sarcasm Rex so please don't ban me)

Caedus knows Luke's crappy fast-medium-slow styles, Bane know's sequences and shit, allowing for more tactical duelling. I'd say he'd win, especially given his magic crap armour and possibly stronger force power's.

And Rex doesn't ban for having opinion's, unless they really annoy Gideon.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wait, CAEDUS isn't a saber master? Guy who taking on four Jedi at once including Kle Katarn and WINNING? Guy who was held as, aside from Luke, the best swordsman in the galaxy? Come on, he's got a chance and it's a good one. Master of the saber Caedus most definitely is.


Caedus have a chance? ROTL Bane can manipulate sub atomic particles and defeat SIRAK and KAS'IM when he wasn't even close to his prime! He also was capable of moving moons and manipulating the space time continuum! Besides, he is the great great great...master of Sidious. Master > Apprentice everyone knows that! So that means that he's MANY times stronger than Sidious, and can easily beat just about anyone except for maybe Nihulus, Revan or Malak!!!!

(note: this is sarcasm so please don't ban me Rex)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Caedus have a chance? ROTL Bane can manipulate sub atomic particles and defeat SIRAK and KAS'IM when he wasn't even close to his prime! He also was capable of moving moons and manipulating the space time continuum! Besides, he is the great great great...master of Sidious. Master > Apprentice everyone knows that! So that means that he's MANY times stronger than Sidious, and can easily beat just about anyone except for maybe Nihulus, Revan or Malak!!!!

(note: this is sarcasm so please don't ban me Rex)

Seriously at some point Rex will Ban you for begging him not to Ban you.

Where to start...
This 'sub atomic particle' nonsense is pretty generic to Holocron making just in case Nebaris's nonsense has caught on. If a Sith makes a Holocron, they know how to do it. Caedus has been named as one of the most powerful Sith who ever lived in Invincible's summary.

Secondly, this 'fast, slow, medium' stuff is little other than gameplay mechanic. Jedi vs. Sith: the Essential Guide to the Force makes it pretty clear Luke's era is using classical dueling styles. By that same logic, Caedus, a master duelist, will be using unfamiliar styles against Bane just as much...let alone his Shatterpoint technique and incredible strength and endurance. Caedus's knowledge of the Force can also best be described as 'titanic,' given the sheer amount of knowledge he has.

And his sheer talent in dueling is at least on par with Bane. If not for Mithric and the others, he would've killed taken Kyle's arm very quickly.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Where to start...
This 'sub atomic particle' nonsense is pretty generic to Holocron making just in case Nebaris's nonsense has caught on. If a Sith makes a Holocron, they know how to do it. Caedus has been named as one of the most powerful Sith who ever lived in Invincible's summary.

Secondly, this 'fast, slow, medium' stuff is little other than gameplay mechanic. Jedi vs. Sith: the Essential Guide to the Force makes it pretty clear Luke's era is using classical dueling styles. By that same logic, Caedus, a master duelist, will be using unfamiliar styles against Bane just as much...let alone his Shatterpoint technique and incredible strength and endurance. Caedus's knowledge of the Force can also best be described as 'titanic,' given the sheer amount of knowledge he has.

And his sheer talent in dueling is at least on par with Bane. If not for Mithric and the others, he would've killed taken Kyle's arm very quickly.

You know I wasn't serious, right?


Wait...actually, Bane could win:

Bane has displayed a planetary command of the Force at a point in time where he was far from as powerful as he would be by RoT, manipulated sub-atomic particles, displayed an alarming natural affinity for the lightsaber (becoming perfectly familiar with the hundreds of thousands of move and sequences that the saber staff has at its command, if not millions, and developing his own counters for them) that as far as we know has only been beaten by Ulic Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider, and on top of all of that, possesses the many advantages of the orbalisk armour, which also happens to grant him a somewhat unique form with the manner in which he can integrate his very body parts into his lightsaber form (which in itself is somewhat unique thanks to the hilt being hook shaped - which Luke can't be said to be familiar with) and also allows him to go on the offence to a far greater degree without sacrificing his defence. He's also displayed to be a far cleverer fighter for the most part, manipulating the environment to his advantage and basing his entire system of combat around the orbalisks, and appears to possess a far greater level of knowledge in the Force. Bane wins all 3, and #4 would be an absolute curbstomp. (faunus)




...not

You.....do know that's all true right?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You know I wasn't serious, right?


Wait...actually, Bane could win:

Bane has displayed a planetary command of the Force at a point in time where he was far from as powerful as he would be by RoT, manipulated sub-atomic particles, displayed an alarming natural affinity for the lightsaber (becoming perfectly familiar with the hundreds of thousands of move and sequences that the saber staff has at its command, if not millions, and developing his own counters for them) that as far as we know has only been beaten by Ulic Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider, and on top of all of that, possesses the many advantages of the orbalisk armour, which also happens to grant him a somewhat unique form with the manner in which he can integrate his very body parts into his lightsaber form (which in itself is somewhat unique thanks to the hilt being hook shaped - which Luke can't be said to be familiar with) and also allows him to go on the offence to a far greater degree without sacrificing his defence. He's also displayed to be a far cleverer fighter for the most part, manipulating the environment to his advantage and basing his entire system of combat around the orbalisks, and appears to possess a far greater level of knowledge in the Force. Bane wins all 3, and #4 would be an absolute curbstomp. (faunus)




...not For all the uneducated tools and blaxicans out there, that wasn't me. It was the Nebaris sock Faunus.

Originally posted by Eminence
For all the uneducated tools and blaxicans out there, that wasn't me. It was the Nebaris sock Faunus.

I never said it was you...

I didn't say you said it was me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You.....do know that's all true right?

Actually, it's mostly distorted, aggrandized or twisted out of context.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, it's mostly distorted, aggrandized or twisted out of context.

Though there are sparks of truth in there.

Of course.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Of course. Like the majority of this site. If you sift through all the crap and debris that has come about whether it is from Bane Vs Sidious fanboys or Rex against the trolls. There are a couple of sparks of fact and truth.

Didn't Luke master the art of lightsaber combat? I assume that he does know all lightsaber forms. In Invincible, didn't he teach Jaina the shatterpoint technique?

Bump.

Edit!

With Orbalisks, Bane has the advantage. Without the Orbalisks, Caedus has the advantage. They are virtually even in this fight. I would think that Bane has a greater command of the dark side, while Caedus has a greater overall command of the force, knowing more techniques as well.

No. Caedus is heavily outclassed in this situation. He can compete with the likes of Dooku and Vader but Bane is on an entirely different level.

Erm... why exactly did you respond via PM?

slash, i am hereby accusing you of bumping this, just because you wanted to see what nebaris would say! Am i right?
(which is very helpful to neb by the way)

I think bane, because of Orbalisks, but Caedus without. The fact that he could just stay on the offensive constantly helps him a great deal. (like it did in his fight in ROT)

Also, i have a problem with calling Caedus a top-tier saber-duelists. yes, the narrator's call him this, but in almost every single fight, he gets debilitatingly injured.

But, what exactly has Caedus demonstrated, really? The sheer scale of his abilities, both in power and in precision, have never been demonstrated to really be anything special at all. He has a great knowledge base in both scale and variety, and some unique/rare abilities that grant him some nice advantages, sure, but nothing indicates that he can operate at a level of power or precision even close to that the likes of Bane can.

Originally posted by truejedi
Also, i have a problem with calling Caedus a top-tier saber-duelists. yes, the narrator's call him this, but in almost every single fight, he gets debilitatingly injured.

Easy, killer.

Kind've makes Luke retarded if he gets critically injured in a duel with a man who is not a top tier duelist or Force user, despite the fact that had battle rage, the element of surprise, and third party interference.

Originally posted by Gideon
Easy, killer.

Kind've makes Luke retarded if he gets critically injured in a duel with a man who is not a top tier duelist or Force user, despite the fact that had battle rage, the element of surprise, and third party interference.

shhh... (i was trying to sneak one by without giving up the other gideon, why call me out like that? )

Did luke actually get sabered? I have the material. I will look, but i thought he just got caught in the vong machine. (not that it makes a lot of difference how he was actually injured... but its at least a minor point)

And i still say its Jacen's own stupidity that Luke caught him by surprise. (thanks to ben stupidly telling him over and over that Luke was right behind him)

Oh, and 3rd party interference kept Luke from killing Caedus BEFORE luke took a scratch. That's fact. (in fact, that's a brand new point i just thought of! yay!! its ben's fault luke didn't own!!!)

I'll get the quote for that.

meh, luke was already pretty injured by that first time.

Pg. 259 of inferno,
He raises his lightsaber to kill a helpless Jacen, and Ben stops him with "Wait!" "Let me do it" Then luke has a conversation with ben, in the meantime Jacen gets free and they go back to fighting.
But luke had already been:

1. kicked in the ribs
2. crushed for a few minutes by a bed of thorns
3. Punched in the ribs again
4. kick in the side of the knee(something popped)


Then he got control (he had heaped out more punishement on Jacen than he had recieved at this point, but still, he was hardly unscathed.)

Clearly the reason i never had this original thought before was because it was bogus.

I already covered that in PH. Go look, now, and then cite my glory.

Just ignore the bad arguments.

Bane sucks!!!1!1

Srsly though, the way people talk about him, makes it seem like he's number 2 of the Sith Lords.

Originally posted by Eminence
I already covered that in PH. Go look, now, and then cite my glory.

Just ignore the bad arguments.

i went back to October 08 man, didn't see anything. Mighta missed it. I would never do you the disservice of citing your bad arguments anyway.

My favorite confrontation in all of star wars is still the jacen sitting in his chair unable to move one. Anytime anyone tries to put Jacen on Luke's level, i can always bring that up. (even if my new argument fails utterly)

That, and this:

Well it wasn't really a straight-up lightsaber imo. Caedus used the environment alot, ran away and used force attacks, turned off the lights and fought in the dark and the times they did go blade to blade they both used punches and kicks etc a hell of alot more than their lightsabers. In fact, the only time they did fight with lightsabers Luke drove Jacens lightsaber into his own shoulder and cut off half the skin on his face. Furthermore, Luke was still recovering from his fight with Lumiya. So imo that fight doesn't really speak much for his technical abilities (other than hand to hand, which won't help him here), but instead for his force power in keeping up and his tactical skills.

And he didn't duel 4 people at once, he specifically took steps to separate them and fight them in singles or doubles, firstly by using the force to hinder two at the start, then disengaging from Katarn and kicking Horn, using the force again etc. Its not really the same as Bane, who actually did fight 3 at once, 2 of which were masters.

So yeah, becuase Bane arguably has more skill, better feats and comparable force levels, he would win in lightsaber combat, the only problem being shatterpoint, though Caedus hasn't ever used that in combat iir and that only takes care of the orbalisks, not the othet factors. In the Force, Bane would win as well imo.

Don't argue the fact that it wasn't "a straight up duel lawl" when Luke attacked without warning from behind. Also, don't mention previous injuries when Luke was the beneficiary of battle rage, which enhanced his combat skills. And lastly, don't mention turning off lights and using the environment when Luke's son put a knife between Caedus's shoulder blades.

Like I've told Lightsnake, Darth Sexy, Eminence, and apparently you two, Luke entered the duel with far more advantages than Caedus, and this precludes their respective skill.

Period.

The end.

/discussion

131

Actually, Ben gave him plenty of warning, y'know, when he..... actually warned him.

And then Ben gave him away by acknowledging his leap with a dropped jaw, giving Caedus enough time to turn and defend.



Which doesn't really matter considering they barely used their lightsabers, so their fight hardly speaks for Caedus' skills in that area. What it does show is that he can punch and kick like a master, not that that'll be of much help here.



No, Jacen used the lights thing to gain an advantage over Luke, and Luke still handed him his ass. Ben helping out does nothing to speak of either combatants, in fact him being there stopped Luke from killing Jacen mid-way through.



I've just got to disagree with that score.

Nephthys
Actually, Ben gave him plenty of warning, y'know, when he..... actually warned him.

Which Caedus instantly believed, reached for his lightsaber, prompting Luke to pause for the requisite banter and obligatory vows of death?

Oh, wait.







They barely used their lightsabers? Simply because the narration didn't specify every single blow made doesn't mean that they didn't use them. I don't even have the book on hand and yet I know for a fact that there's a reference towards the end of the duel that they were clashing sabers "faster than the eye could follow."

Battle rage enhances one's physical abilities. Makes one faster, stronger, and more durable.



Ben putting a knife between Caedus's shoulder blades also prevented him from fighting back against Luke; it was the move that ended the duel.



Feel free.

Meanwhile, I'll indulge my right to conclude that shutting off the lights does not outweigh battle rage, the element of surprise, and third party interference by one combatant's son.

so gideon, you disagree with Caedus's own evaluation of the fight? (not arguing, just wondering how that fits into your summation)

i can repost the quote if you want.

Caedus seemed to think he lost on even footing to Luke.

Pg. 266

You're right, he didn't.




You're wrong, he did.- 'Ben's jaw dropped and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt.' Luke didn't have the element of surprise.



Nope, the actual quote is-' They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could see, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows (detailed as being hand to hand) came out of nowhere'. Only one blow is detailed, and while the term 'fans of color' may suggest more than one strike, it could easily detailed a mere initial strike a piece.



But does nothing (or possibly weakening) ones technical abilities, which is what I'm discussing.



Yes, and it actually probably saved his life, as Jacen mulls later that Luke would have beaten him without it.

also, i don't see how being in battle rage can technically be described as an "advantage"
Where is the evidence that Jacen wasn't in a battle rage? was he in a battle? Yes. Was he angry? yes. Thus, Battle-Rage. Just because battle rage is something that is unusual to a clear-headed Jedi Luke, That same battle rage is pretty standard for Jacen's saber battles.

I'll give you the element of surprise. That was definitly advantage luke. But the other things? I don't see them as much of an advantage, in fact, considering the fight was on Jacen's home turf, and he uses elements of that turf to his advantage, most of the rest of the fight (after initial surprise, that failed, and in fact, "Made Jacen Stronger" The advantages were Jacen's.) (Especially considering the "advantage" that was luke's, ended up cracking several of Luke's already injured ribs.)

Must we really go through this song-and-dance routine again, Exodus?

You're not going to win. You never do.

I am, as ever, right. And invincible. And awesome. And unstoppable.

I'm like the Mike Tyson of debating, and I'm about to bite your fvcking ear off!

/rant



Thank you.



Now post the part that explains why Ben's jaw dropped, Exodus.

And do it now.



You're not free to argue this. You're attempting too (and rather poorly, I might add) interpret the duel to suit your agenda. This was a duel; a fight to the death between a Jedi and a Sith, the primary weapon was a lightsaber. Unless you have something that proves that they "barely" used it and that the "flashing fans of color" constitutes only one strike a piece, you will concede and move on.



...

Damn it, you're right. I'm sorry. Though this galls me to admit, when one becomes stronger, faster, and more durable in a duel, the payoff is clearly that one forgets how to use one's weapon properly.





It doesn't matter whether or not Luke may have won the duel without Ben's interference. We're not arguing whether or not Luke is the superior duelist; we're arguing who had more advantages in that fight. It was clearly Luke.



no, damn it

Originally posted by Gideon


It doesn't matter whether or not Luke may have won the duel without Ben's interference. We're not arguing whether or not Luke is the superior duelist; we're arguing who had more advantages in that fight. It was clearly Luke.



k, i think we are on the same page here.

Originally posted by truejedi
k, i think we are on the same page here.

Indeed.

We have become one with the Page.

You and I have merged...

Originally posted by Gideon
Indeed.

We have become one with the Page.

You and I have merged...



you realize that is the same smilie you left when i was darth sexy about his big thing?

As Darth Daniel would say:

Ewww... Now i bet that is SOME kinda inuendo!

Too=/=to Gideon

.... Aren't you retired?




You're welcome.



Becuase Luke jumped at Jacen attempting the element of surprise. Too bad Ben ruined it.



Not really. As I hinted at, the full quote is, 'Blows came out of nowhere. Luke caught another kick in his knee and found himself relying on the force to keep his balance. He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacens face'. No mention of lightsaber strikes, but the 'blows' specifically referenced to being physical body strikes.



Because the term 'flashing fans of color' is ambiguous hyperbole. It may reference more than one strike, it may be just their initial collision. The difference is that the latter has credibility becuase the text is describing Luke and Jacen coming together in an initial collision. Most likely however, the text should be discarded as ambiguous with only one lightsaber strike and two hand-to-hand strikes provable.



I said possibly jerkass. And wasn't it Anakins extreme rage that stopped him from being able to defeat Kenobi (lack of focus). And when kenobi used his rage Maul co-incidentally puts him on his ass. And when Luke uses his his strikes degenerate into wild baseball-bat strikes.



Perhaps (though I consider Jacens knowledge and ability to use the environment more (demonstratably) useful), but having Ben there is not one of them given that twice Ben saved his life.


And this still doesn't change the fact that Jacen showed No provable lightsaber skill in his battle with Luke, so it really shouldn't be taken to prove that he's a wildly skilled saber-beast.

I'm sorry, I stopped reading at the part where you said this:

"Gideon, thank you for showing me the error of my ways and I submit to your glory, you sexy hunk of man meat."

Replace 'Gideon' for 'Alan Rickman' and you've got me pegged.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Replace 'Gideon' for 'Alan Rickman' and you've got me pegged.

I am the SenateAlan Rickman.

I have achieved wood.

Also: Are you prepared to admit that I might be right on this one now?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have achieved wood.

Also: Are you prepared to admit that I might be right on this one now?

Seriously? No.

The fact that Jacen managed to prepare a last second defense against Luke's surprise attack does not preclude the fact that Luke had the element of surprise.

You mention Anakin vs. Obi-Wan; Obi-Wan was a master of Soresu who was able to withstand Anakin's extreme rage; compare that to Count Dooku, who was a superior duelist and Force user than Obi-Wan and yet could not withstand Anakin's rage simply because of the mechanics of his particular form. You also reference Obi-Wan vs. Maul; it was Obi-Wan's rage that enabled him to briefly gain the upper hand against Maul before he was outmaneuvered.

Your syllogism is faulty.

Ben's intereference also crippled Jacen to the point that he could not finish the duel at all, regardless of whether or not Luke was likely to win at that point.

The bottom line is that Jacen went into the fight at a distinct disadvantage.

Maybe, maybe not, but the real bottom line is that Jacen didn't display any lightsaber skill in the fight, making it impossible to use the fight to prove he has good lightsaber skills.

Caedus went into the fight at a distinct disadvantage.

Then several moments later, that became an advantage.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe, maybe not, but the real bottom line is that Jacen didn't display any lightsaber skill in the fight, making it impossible to use the fight to prove he has good lightsaber skills.

You will go back and tell me where I said it was possible to do such a thing.

And you will do so now.

Go back and tell me when I accused you of doing such.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Go back and tell me when I accused you of doing such.

Well played.

Well played...

131

You two are just backpeddling now.

Thats becuase Gideon's confused me as to what we're arguing about.



Suspicious.....

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats becuase Gideon's confused me as to what we're arguing about.



Suspicious.....

Can you say "master plan"?

Originally posted by Gideon
Can you say "master plan"?

you do that man. You remember the Obi-wan/Marek argument? Where we went pages and pages with me trying to point out that the evidence favored Kenobi in a pure sabers fight. (no offensive force powers)

When you finally went with something along the lines of "I wasn't trying to prove that Marek would win, just that you couldn't prove Kenobi could win."


I felt like this guy here for 2 days after that.



I would've told you well-played that day, but i was too angry.