Challenge to Debaters

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Blair Wind
The Blair Wind Project/The Smurph-Is-Awesome Project


Smurph and I are considering hosting a tournament. Around Ironman level - gives for the most versatility in levels. Teams of four characters, single or team posters.

Rules are pending if there is interest in such a tournament. Let us know.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
FIGHT CLUB:

1. This will be a Ironman (with Extremis)/High Meta Tournament. The characters do not need to be less powerful than Ironman himself, simply in the same power class. If there is a dispute as to how powerful a person is, Blair and Smurph will make executive decisions regarding them. There are no limits on how powerful your characters can be as a team.
An appearance minimum of 10 comics must be achieved for all characters. Those under 10 appearances will be reviewed by both Blair and Smurph, and an executive decision will be made to allow them or not.

2. No offensive matter manipulation. Only the elements of the battlefield or teammates can be altered.

3. Time manip is allowed, but not full fledged time travel (which no character within limits should have anyways), and not used as an attack (ie, ageing people incredibly fast).

4. No one-hit kill (OHK) abilities (example: dismemberment via teleportation of limbs/objects into vitals, etc.).

5. No access to the battlefield prior to the beginning of combat. Teams will begin combat .5 kilometers away from each others' position.

6. Prep: Prep is allowed. You get 3 (three) minutes of prep per match. The default prep area is the X-men War Room with a visual of the battlefield you will be fighting in, and where you will be located (but not where your opponent will be). You will not have access to any other X-men facility/utility and that other than the hologram/visual, it should be assumed that anything in the room is mundane.

The only database/computer network you can use is regular internet. You can use Google. Google knows all. No hacking or use of private networks are allowed. Google exists on a multi-universal scale. Marvel/DC/any universe. However, it will not have wikipedia information, just news releases and the like.

This is google in a comic world- the characters you’re fighting aren’t considered fictional, they are more like celebrities with powers, so google information will change accordingly.

Battle Information: Combatants will be given general public information on their opponents (name, basic overview of powers - simple things like "Iceman controls cold" "Strong Man is Strong", or "Storm controls weather", etc), and place of origin. More in-depth information on your opponents can be gained via the use of character information someone on your team might have (assuming you have someone like that, i.e., opponent is Joker, you have Batman on your roster).


7. Tech: Creation of tech is not allowed during prep, however it is during the battle.
The technology can be used to amplify and enhance your characters.
No offensive implement with a greater payload than an independently powered, Extremis Ironman armor is allowed. Defensive technological implements (psi blockers, forcefield generators, armor) will be allowed, as well as communications devices and personal teleporters/means of transportation.


8. Experience is the only thing that carries over from battle to battle. You can not bring any implement that you acquired during the battle to the subsequent rounds. All you'll have is your memories/experiences/knowledge from the previous battle.

9. No amalgamation

10. Duplication/Self Replication: The ability to create copies of yourself (i.e. Multiple Man/Dupli-Kate/Animal Man's ability to replicate themselves) is officially nixed

These powers can’t be replicated through tech or any other means.

11. No CIS/PIS

12. Mind Control and Telepathy: Mind control of your opponent, be it by any means (telepathy, hypnosis, possession) is nixed. Offensive telepathic assault is allowed.

13. Each poster/team is allowed 10 combat posts plus 4 scan only posts (14 posts total each). Scan only posts are used to post evidence only, not arguments.

14. Battle Field Removal: Battle Field Removal (BFR; removing your opponent from the battlefield via teleportation, banishing, or exertion of force ) is banned.

Teams are confined to the surface area and airspace of the battlefield within the planets atmosphere. Abilities which require a character to momentarily travel extra dimensionally (Nightcrawler's teleportation, Spot's teleportation, etc.), and powers which allow a character to become momentarily out of phase/intangible (Martian intangibility/mass shunt, etc) are allowed. Voluntarily leaving the battlefield, indefinitely or otherwise, means you lose.

15. Power Copying/Negating: Characters that possess the ability to copy/negate the powers of other characters (i.e. Mimic/Leech/Synch) are nixed.

These powers can’t be replicated through tech or any other means.

16. Healing Factors: Healing factors are allowed, however if a person is nothing more than paste on the wall that will eventually re-grow itself, they have lost the match. This includes Deadpool and Wolverine. Mr. Immortal, if you so choose to select him, will be, for the purposes of this tournament, dead the first time he dies.

17. Speed Cap: Drafted characters can’t be capable of exceed mach 10 under their own power.

Note: this doesn’t ban thinking speed, reaction speed, etc.

18. Independent Constructs/Constructs: Independently acting constructs are officially banned. Constructs that are not independent must be in line with the power level of the tournament, unless somehow amped. 3 constructs are allowed.

19. Precognition/Clairvoyance: Spider-sense like/combat awareness abilities are perfectly legal. Complete future sight isn’t.

20. Probability Alteration/Luck Powers: Probability Alteration characters (a la Longshot, Shamrock, etc) are nixed.

21. Size Alteration/Shrinking Powers: Can’t draft characters capable of shrinking shorter than 1 cm.

22. Creativity is encouraged. Loopholes are to be sought. However, if we have missed something that allows you to be on the level of LT based on a loophole, expect it to be banned.

That being said, if you do find a loophole, or something else that the rules haven’t covered, talk to us first. PM or IM Smurph or Blair and give them a heads up- we could have already had the same situation with another poster and ruled it illegal.

We reserve the right to ban characters or strategies at any point in the tourney.

Scheduling/Battle Format:

Still up in the air. We haven’t decided if we’re doing a seeding format or not.

We’re considering having two separate pools- one for first-time tourney-goers, and one for vets. This is dependant on people, but I’d like to have a tourney that wasn’t a vet war, though those are nice matches to watch.

srug

psycho gundam
put me down for interested.

and who won delph's last tournament anyway?

Original Smurph
Blair and I didn't show up for two weeks to the final match, so Delph declared the other guys as winners. Meh. Probably fair. haermm

Vally Doosh
Cool. I'm in.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Vally Doosh
Cool. I'm in. GTFO.

---------------------------------

FYI all, this will soon be in the new Tourney forum that's arriving.

Vally Doosh
Originally posted by Original Smurph
GTFO.


Alright. sad

psycho gundam
^that's the spirit. dontgetit

Lord Feron
how do you play?

Original Smurph
Originally posted by psycho gundam
^that's the spirit. dontgetit Have you not met Val?

----------------------------------
In more relevant news:

We've already got some people interested. Things are looking up.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Lord Feron
how do you play? Everybody will draft four characters of Ironman-level power or below.

Then everybody will set up strategies for their team, and debate why their team and strategy would beat the other person.

Matches are held, judges will decide winners, until it eventually comes down to the final 4, then the final 2, then the winner.

If you want, I can grab examples of previous tournaments and matches. Digi has an awesome respect/reference thread for them...

Here

kgkg
Winners get any prize?

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Lord Feron
how do you play? do some research on kmc tourneys by going over the past ones, trust me it will help if you want to do well. believe me, my debut in tournaments was piss poor because i didn't know better. (juggy gems still is the baddest mah phukka in dat bytch though stick out tongue )

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/9247/juggernautwk0rv7.jpg

Original Smurph
Originally posted by kgkg
Winners get any prize? Well, you'll get your own special spot in Digi's respect thread, you'll be respected by your online peers, eternal fame and glory, etc.

That, and personal satisfaction. Even simply doing good in one of these tournaments is no easy task, and it takes skill to go far.

So, if you think you're any good, this is how you prove it. Basically.

Nihilist
Do you get to pick you're character's ?

Scoobless
Must ..... resist .... gaaaaahhhhhhh ........



no expression

Mindset
Can Val and I make a team? awesome

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Nihilist
Do you get to pick you're character's ? Yeah, we'll hold a draft. I'll give more details on how that will work later, but you'll definitely choose each character on your team.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Mindset
Can Val and I make a team? awesome Only if you call it Val and Jr. Val.

awesome

Posters can compete in teams if they want.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Scoobless
Must ..... resist .... gaaaaahhhhhhh ........



no expression No, no Blair and I are hosting this one, not competing in it.

You have no reason to avoid it. awesome

In all seriousness, Scoob, you know you wanna...

Scoobless
Originally posted by Original Smurph
No, no Blair and I are hosting this one, not competing in it.

You have no reason to avoid it. awesome

In all seriousness, Scoob, you know you wanna...

I might wait and see how the rules/settings shape out.

Are you lmiting numbers?

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Scoobless
I might wait and see how the rules/settings shape out.

Are you lmiting numbers? Number of competitors?

Nah.

darthgoober
Depending on how simple the setup is, I might be interested in signing on. I don't have enough time for anything overly complicated, but if prep time is kept to a minimum I might be able to swing it...

Original Smurph
Originally posted by darthgoober
Depending on how simple the setup is, I might be interested in signing on. I don't have enough time for anything overly complicated, but if prep time is kept to a minimum I might be able to swing it... I wanna avoid insta-tech and WMD prep plans, so that'll probably mean minimal prep time at a pre-determined location (as opposed to your "classic" home base), but I need to confirm with Blair.

Newjak
So no amalgams?

Martian_mind
No.

The Pict
I've never competed in one before but it sounds interesting. I might be up for it.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Newjak
So no amalgams? Nein.

We've had a run of amalgam tourneys, and it sounds like a pain to manage.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by The Pict
I've never competed in one before but it sounds interesting. I might be up for it. I think we might have a bunch of new blood this tourney, by the sounds of things, so no worries.

leonidas
Originally posted by Original Smurph
I wanna avoid insta-tech and WMD prep plans, so that'll probably mean minimal prep time at a pre-determined location (as opposed to your "classic" home base), but I need to confirm with Blair.

hmmm . . . if that's the case i might let scoob team up with me again . . . shifty

seriously--zero prep time would be sweet. JUST the characters and the debators.

Tom Joad
I might do this one, etc.

illadelph12
evil_monkey

Original Smurph

illadelph12
I'm assuming that in the interest of this tourney the "Google" is not Marvel Specific (given that the prep area is in Marvel) and you'll be able to access info on any character from any universe, right? You might want to clarify. It seems apparent to me but I've learned from experience that it's always best to spell out as much as possible.

Blair Wind
Originally posted by illadelph12
I'm assuming that in the interest of this tourney the "Google" is not Marvel Specific (given that the prep area is in Marvel) and you'll be able to access info on any character from any universe, right? You might want to clarify. It seems apparent to me but I've learned from experience that it's always best to spell out as much as possible.

Thank you. It has been edited in the OP post.

BTW, it has all those annoying code aspects that happen occasionally when you have a ' in a word. Sorry, but unless Bada or Paul decide to fix it, there is nothing I can do.

If there is interest, let us know. Tell us here or PM us. Questions on picks? PM us, or IM us.

Also, inform your friends. We want as many veterans as well as any newcomers to join us. If enough newcomers join we may have a separate pool for them, just to give them some experience before they go against the big wigs.

Nighty101
I have a great super hero in mind. Where do I join?

Nighty101
Her name is Tori Kay Trustin. She is 16, and her powers are to be able to fly, generate and control electricity, suck the electricity out of machines and use it as energy, overload machines with electricity and make them go KABLOOOOEY!!! (lol), and to make electric force fields (sort of it's complicated erm . But she is a really cool character. So do you have a website or something that I can join on?

Mekrob
Put one down for Bran and Trick

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Nighty101
Her name is Tori Kay Trustin. She is 16, and her powers are to be able to fly, generate and control electricity, suck the electricity out of machines and use it as energy, overload machines with electricity and make them go KABLOOOOEY!!! (lol), and to make electric force fields (sort of it's complicated erm . But she is a really cool character. So do you have a website or something that I can join on?

You have to use canon characters. The tournament is on this site.

id369
Strictly comic characters?

psycho gundam
no expression

Original Smurph
Originally posted by id369
Strictly comic characters? We haven't ruled yet, but that's probable.

Original Smurph
URGENT BULLETIN

Don't share too many plans yet. Everything's in planning- we don't really know how big teams are gonna be, or if there will be teams, etc.

I'm looking at you, Scoob/Leo/Steve/etc.

Shhh.

kgkg
Originally posted by id369
Strictly comic characters? I would like to use Pokemon

Mekrob
Originally posted by kgkg
I would like to use Pokemon Make sure they don't have the double super weaknesses.

Blair Wind
Originally posted by id369
Strictly comic characters?

Yes. Strictly comic characters.

psycho gundam
dang, i wanted to draft bugs bunny.

id369
Originally posted by Blair Wind
Yes. Strictly comic characters.

Well that sucks major pelotas, um good luck this.

darthgoober
Originally posted by psycho gundam
dang, i wanted to draft bugs bunny.
WAAAY over Ironman level...

Enyalus
Originally posted by psycho gundam
dang, i wanted to draft bugs bunny.
He is one. New Looney Toons issue came out yesterday, in fact.

Raoul
No amalgams thumb up

teams thumb up

yeah, i'm thinking i'd be up for this if i can find the time, and a partner...

Charlotte DeBel
Already told to you, darling... I'm in. Though as you're the organisers, I'll lack the chance to PWN you. No partners yet, thoughsmile But can team up with someone who can accept my wild ideas.

Addition- as for time manip, to what degree time freeze is allowed? Might be only allowed to imitate speed cap (i.e. slowing time down enough to make it appear to your opponent tha\t you move at Mach 10 as opposed at him).

Martian_mind
Originally posted by Raoul
No amalgams thumb up

teams thumb up

yeah, i'm thinking i'd be up for this if i can find the time, and a partner...

Why,hello there cool



My, that came out seedier then intended..

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by id369
Well that sucks major pelotas, um good luck this.

Not sucks, but... f*cking roster economy. With mixed genre I could have use 1 character for the strategy which requires me drafting 2 guys now... but then...stuff happens.

Raoul
Originally posted by Martian_mind
Why,hello there cool



My, that came out seedier then intended..

laughing out loud

The Nuul
I think Quan should be in this. He would make a good teammate for Bran or Trick..

Lord Feron
Damn I can't really offer scans sad

Digi
Too similar to delph's last tourney, though I like the slight rule tweaks. Put me down as a judge.

Scoobless
Originally posted by Original Smurph
8. Experience is the only thing that carries over from battle to battle. You can not bring any implement that you acquired during the battle to the subsequent rounds. All you'll have is your memories/experiences/knowledge from the previous battle.

I'd get rid of that altogether, caused a hell of a lot of arguments last time around.

Absolutely nothing wrong with having each team facing each other without advantages that only become available through freakishly lucky match line ups.

Digi
Originally posted by Scoobless
I'd get rid of that altogether, caused a hell of a lot of arguments last time around.

Absolutely nothing wrong with having each team facing each other without advantages that only become available through freakishly lucky match line ups.

Actually, co-signed. Even removing the Marvel Family nonsense that got me into trouble, under that rule a person with Minion could un-controversially have Karate Kid's power set added to his already-considerable array, as well as anyone else they think of.

Scoobless
Teams are fixed after teh drafts conclude, right? no reforming for specific matches this time?

(I hope)

starlock
Originally posted by Lord Feron
Damn I can't really offer scans sad

I post from work...so i can understand...its why i never participated sad

Can anybody tell those of us..who cant scan and post.....is it smart to rely upon the respect thread for scans?

Since i am only online from 630am -4pm NY time....would it be wise for me to even attempt to enter?

I am 38 years old...i have been game master for so many years(over 16) and i have collected comics since i was 8 years old...i think i could be very good...from what i have posted...what do the experienced tourny debators think would be wise?

Scoobless
Only 30 years of comic reading? pffft ... come back when you start taking it seriously!


stick out tongue

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Digi
Actually, co-signed. Even removing the Marvel Family nonsense that got me into trouble, under that rule a person with Minion could un-controversially have Karate Kid's power set added to his already-considerable array, as well as anyone else they think of.

Well, in the tourney with no shifting rosters the thing isn't worth squat.

Two things:
1. "Soul assimilation" is big enough loophole (tried by Akuki and me in Delph's low meta tourney to avoid "no power copying from people on the battlefield rule, and then by Digi to avoid "no power copying" all together). That specific technique should be banned... can't see much harm in general telepathic knowledge transfer, though. It doesn't benefit to play "collector" without shifting roster, though.

2. Allow standart telepathic knowledge\skill transfer, but if played "round-robin", nullify all previously gained knowledge on the playoff stage.

Soul assimilation is wildly-abused loophole (OK, twice in two tourneys out of four) AND controversial compared to "normal" telepathic skill download. Ban knowledge transfer all together=nono.

Also, access to specific databases is banned, making another loopholish aspect of it pointless.
Banning soul assimilation, telepathic knowledge transfer is the only thing being useful, and it's not as much of "match decider" with no amalgam rule in place.

Lord Feron
Originally posted by starlock
I post from work...so i can understand...its why i never participated sad

Can anybody tell those of us..who cant scan and post.....is it smart to rely upon the respect thread for scans?

Since i am only online from 630am -4pm NY time....would it be wise for me to even attempt to enter?

I am 38 years old...i have been game master for so many years(over 16) and i have collected comics since i was 8 years old...i think i could be very good...from what i have posted...what do the experienced tourny debators think would be wise?

YEah me to man. I only go on KMC while at work hah. And I can come on once in a hwile at home or over the weekends but mostly not.

sad

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by starlock
I post from work...so i can understand...its why i never participated sad

Can anybody tell those of us..who cant scan and post.....is it smart to rely upon the respect thread for scans?

Since i am only online from 630am -4pm NY time....would it be wise for me to even attempt to enter?

I am 38 years old...i have been game master for so many years(over 16) and i have collected comics since i was 8 years old...i think i could be very good...from what i have posted...what do the experienced tourny debators think would be wise?

In most cases, yes. Many RTs give good description of characters.

Scoobless
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
In most cases, yes. Many RTs give good description of characters.

And if you already have a good idea of the "feat" you are using as an argument, sometimes a decent description or issue number is enough (sometimes)

illadelph12
Make sure you guys secure at least 8-10+ judge prospects. That can be a real tourney killer.

Lord Feron
Originally posted by illadelph12
Make sure you guys secure at least 8-10+ judge prospects. That can be a real tourney killer.

what do you have to do to qualify as a judge?

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Scoobless
I'd get rid of that altogether, caused a hell of a lot of arguments last time around.

Absolutely nothing wrong with having each team facing each other without advantages that only become available through freakishly lucky match line ups. Yeah, Blair and I had already talked about how aquiring other's memories and souls will be banned outright.

Combined with the fact that the rosters aren't going to be changing, we're not gonna have repeats of super-Minion, Nimrod, Emma Frost, etc.

Raoul
Originally posted by starlock
I post from work...so i can understand...its why i never participated sad

Can anybody tell those of us..who cant scan and post.....is it smart to rely upon the respect thread for scans?

Since i am only online from 630am -4pm NY time....would it be wise for me to even attempt to enter?

I am 38 years old...i have been game master for so many years(over 16) and i have collected comics since i was 8 years old...i think i could be very good...from what i have posted...what do the experienced tourny debators think would be wise?

imo, scans aren't necessary. people place way too much emphasis on them. star, just give issue numbers and describe the feats if you can't post scans...

Original Smurph
Originally posted by starlock
I post from work...so i can understand...its why i never participated sad

Can anybody tell those of us..who cant scan and post.....is it smart to rely upon the respect thread for scans?

Since i am only online from 630am -4pm NY time....would it be wise for me to even attempt to enter?

I am 38 years old...i have been game master for so many years(over 16) and i have collected comics since i was 8 years old...i think i could be very good...from what i have posted...what do the experienced tourny debators think would be wise? Sure. As long as you know the character well enough, and you draft ones that have respect threads (remember to check other sites if you need), you can use respect threads.

The only times I haven't been able to rely on them were when I was looking for really obscure characters, but there's a ton of well known ones to pick from, especially considering the low amount of drafts characters we're gonna have this time.

Also, what Paul said.

Digi
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Well, in the tourney with no shifting rosters the thing isn't worth squat.

Two things:
1. "Soul assimilation" is big enough loophole (tried by Akuki and me in Delph's low meta tourney to avoid "no power copying from people on the battlefield rule, and then by Digi to avoid "no power copying" all together). That specific technique should be banned... can't see much harm in general telepathic knowledge transfer, though. It doesn't benefit to play "collector" without shifting roster, though.

2. Allow standart telepathic knowledge\skill transfer, but if played "round-robin", nullify all previously gained knowledge on the playoff stage.

Soul assimilation is wildly-abused loophole (OK, twice in two tourneys out of four) AND controversial compared to "normal" telepathic skill download. Ban knowledge transfer all together=nono.

Also, access to specific databases is banned, making another loopholish aspect of it pointless.
Banning soul assimilation, telepathic knowledge transfer is the only thing being useful, and it's not as much of "match decider" with no amalgam rule in place.

Too much reading. Commenting would imply more interest than I actually have. Do what you guys want. Put me down as a judge.

happy

Originally posted by Scoobless
Teams are fixed after teh drafts conclude, right? no reforming for specific matches this time?

(I hope)

Even still, anyone with photographic memory or some form of assimilation could rack up all kinds of useful skills against other teams as it goes along. But yeah, fixed teams kinda nips the problem in the bud, just not entirely.

Nighty101
crap.... oh well... is Nightcrawler open??? I like Kurt.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Nighty101
crap.... oh well... is Nightcrawler open??? I like Kurt. Yeah.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t447826.html

That list is a good guideline- everyone listed under High Meta or below has a shot at getting in to the tourney.

AlmightyKfish
Hmm, sounds pretty cool.

I might be able to join, depending on when it starts etc...

The Pict
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel


Addition- as for time manip, to what degree time freeze is allowed? Might be only allowed to imitate speed cap (i.e. slowing time down enough to make it appear to your opponent tha\t you move at Mach 10 as opposed at him).

That's a good question.

psycho gundam
tempo has that specific power.

Martian_mind
Willing to judge if needed.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by psycho gundam
tempo has that specific power.

I know. In fact, can think about two or three characters in that. Total time halt ala Lakuna (Lakuna, Emma Frost and Karate Kid in team=insta-pwnage), but freezing your opponents in time is no different from say direct offensive use of matter manip.

That kills the creativity much faster than your normal memory assimilation. Propose- ban time manip and soul assimilation (loopholes, and huge ones at that), leave skill assimilation intact.

Otherwise whoever grabs "halters" (Tempo and Lacuna might be only ones within appearance quota, Ambrose Chase and Sway have too few appearances), gain unfair advantage here.

Another question, guys. How are you going to deal with objects\artefacts which are>tourney cap on their own but are standart equipment of several chars? Soranic Natu and Nico Minoru (GL ring and Staff of One) respectively spring to mind.

Raoul
Natu is only High Meta? Yeesh...

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Raoul
Natu is only High Meta? Yeesh...

The placement of lower GLs was debated, but agree, darling, I'm a latent dumb blonde, she's low herald.

Kris Blaze
Hmm, maybe I should participate in this one.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
The placement of lower GLs was debated, but agree, darling, I'm a latent dumb blonde, she's low herald.

An unfortunate secondary mutation? stick out tongue

Digi
lol, check the tiers thread. No GLs in meta.

Raoul
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
The placement of lower GLs was debated, but agree, darling, I'm a latent dumb blonde, she's low herald.

aww. poor thing.

yeah, Natu's Low Herald. Only of course until she dies at the hand of Rayner's newest enemy...

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
I know. In fact, can think about two or three characters in that. Total time halt ala Lakuna (Lakuna, Emma Frost and Karate Kid in team=insta-pwnage), but freezing your opponents in time is no different from say direct offensive use of matter manip.

That kills the creativity much faster than your normal memory assimilation. Propose- ban time manip and soul assimilation (loopholes, and huge ones at that), leave skill assimilation intact.

Otherwise whoever grabs "halters" (Tempo and Lacuna might be only ones within appearance quota, Ambrose Chase and Sway have too few appearances), gain unfair advantage here.

Another question, guys. How are you going to deal with objects\artefacts which are>tourney cap on their own but are standart equipment of several chars? Soranic Natu and Nico Minoru (GL ring and Staff of One) respectively spring to mind. Who says Nico Minoru's staff is > tourney cap? I realize it's good and versatile, but her power output is nothing to write home about.

I thought Lakuna couldn't control where she went in time? Or am I thinking of someone else? mmm

Yeah, we may ban time control all together. I'll wait for more opinions.

psycho gundam
how is charles xavier a "low herald"?

Original Smurph
Originally posted by psycho gundam
how is charles xavier a "low herald"? I've argued that point before.

B-Dub and I haven't decided the exact mechanics of the drafting process yet, but people who want to draft sketchy picks will have to get it past their peers and us.

B-Dub might veto Chuck outright though. Personally, I've always seen him as pretty borderline.

psycho gundam
the definition of "herald" needs to be re tuned for damn sure.

chuck is high meta

Original Smurph
Originally posted by psycho gundam
the definition of "herald" needs to be re tuned for damn sure. Go complain to Digi, I'm sure he's lurking around here somewhere.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Who says Nico Minoru's staff is > tourney cap? I realize it's good and versatile, but her power output is nothing to write home about.

I thought Lakuna couldn't control where she went in time? Or am I thinking of someone else? mmm

Yeah, we may ban time control all together. I'll wait for more opinions.

Lacuna is no time traveller, the one from X-Statix was time stopper (the power to "slip in between seconds"wink. So yes, you think about someone else. Sh*t happens sometimes (me underrating Soranik Natu=sucks).

Blame my bad spelling with Lacuna, guys...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacuna_(comics)

Vally Doosh
Originally posted by Raoul
aww. poor thing.

yeah, Natu's Low Herald. Only of course until she dies at the hand of Rayner's newest enemy...
sad

Blair Wind
Originally posted by Original Smurph
I've argued that point before.

B-Dub and I haven't decided the exact mechanics of the drafting process yet, but people who want to draft sketchy picks will have to get it past their peers and us.

B-Dub might veto Chuck outright though. Personally, I've always seen him as pretty borderline.

The definition of this tournament is being in the same category as Ironman (w/Extremis). The characters do not need to be less powerful than Ironman himself, simply in the same power class. If there is a dispute as to how powerful a person is, both Smurph and I will make executive decisions regarding them. Now, I tend to rate Ironman higher than the average person, but then again I have more Ironman comics and know more about him than the average joe as well. I added Extremis because I want to include a higher level of power characters while still keeping it right below low herald.

As far as Chuck, I see no reason to ban him. However, realize telepaths ARE limited via the rules. No controlling of opposite sides.

Also, I put one vote towards banning time manip, as does Charlotte I assume. Thoughts of others?

What are others thoughts on gaining experience throughout the tournament?

psycho gundam
time manip = bad news. and it's true that lacuna doesn't really manipulate time, but she's no less exploitable in that regard.

Raoul
Originally posted by Vally Doosh
sad

sad

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Blair Wind
The definition of this tournament is being in the same category as Ironman (w/Extremis). The characters do not need to be less powerful than Ironman himself, simply in the same power class. If there is a dispute as to how powerful a person is, both Smurph and I will make executive decisions regarding them. Now, I tend to rate Ironman higher than the average person, but then again I have more Ironman comics and know more about him than the average joe as well. I added Extremis because I want to include a higher level of power characters while still keeping it right below low herald.

As far as Chuck, I see no reason to ban him. However, realize telepaths ARE limited via the rules. No controlling of opposite sides.

Also, I put one vote towards banning time manip, as does Charlotte I assume. Thoughts of others?

What are others thoughts on gaining experience throughout the tournament?

I've said. Telepathic knowledge assimilation=good, souls loophole needs to be banned since it can turn out to be a loophole around "no power copying".
No access to specific prep area databases also rules out Nimrodesque strategy, and telepathic skill assimilation\transfer can only make it so far. With no roster shifts and no specific prep areas I see no big deal about it.
But that's just my opinion.

Time manip should be banned period or allowed only in form of time slow to imitate speed cap.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by psycho gundam
time manip = bad news. and it's true that lacuna doesn't really manipulate time, but she's no less exploitable in that regard.

Time halter, telepath and somebody with Karate Kid'esque skills= opposing team dies without realising that it was PWNed and it's almost as boring as playing DMC3 with infinite Quicksilver mode (same thing basically if you know what I'm talking about).

Emma Frost\Lacuna teamup did seamlessly to the finals of the last Mutant League on CBR (with very BS set of rules, though).

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Another question, guys. How are you going to deal with objects\artefacts which are>tourney cap on their own but are standart equipment of several chars? Soranic Natu and Nico Minoru (GL ring and Staff of One) respectively spring to mind. good question.

The Pict
Originally posted by Blair Wind


Also, I put one vote towards banning time manip, as does Charlotte I assume. Thoughts of others?



I'm not sure. As with anyone who might be participating I was thinking of characters who would do well in match ups and I had a certain character in mind, who controls one particular aspect of time. However if we get muddled in all the specifics, disagreeing which factors of time manip are acceptable and which aren't maybe it should be banned outright.

Scoobless
Ban time manip & telepathic information "stealing" that lasts between rounds (though trading info between team members could still be allowed)

Digi
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Go complain to Digi, I'm sure he's lurking around here somewhere.

lol, like I determine everyone's place on the tiers list. I'm just the facilitator of the list, not its controller. If you guys want baldy in the tourney, more power to you.

Raoul
Asssuming it counts, my vote is to ban time manip in all its forms. makes things simpler imo...

tjcoady
Is it too late to say I'm interested in entering the tourney? I've never done one before, and I'm sure I'd get destroyed, but I'd like to try one.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Original Smurph
I've argued that point before.

B-Dub and I haven't decided the exact mechanics of the drafting process yet, but people who want to draft sketchy picks will have to get it past their peers and us.

B-Dub might veto Chuck outright though. Personally, I've always seen him as pretty borderline.
Originally posted by Blair Wind
The definition of this tournament is being in the same category as Ironman (w/Extremis). The characters do not need to be less powerful than Ironman himself, simply in the same power class. If there is a dispute as to how powerful a person is, both Smurph and I will make executive decisions regarding them. Now, I tend to rate Ironman higher than the average person, but then again I have more Ironman comics and know more about him than the average joe as well. I added Extremis because I want to include a higher level of power characters while still keeping it right below low herald.

As far as Chuck, I see no reason to ban him. However, realize telepaths ARE limited via the rules. No controlling of opposite sides.

Also, I put one vote towards banning time manip, as does Charlotte I assume. Thoughts of others?

What are others thoughts on gaining experience throughout the tournament?
IMO Xavier warrants his spot as a low herald and shouldn't be allowed. From what I've heard the only thing stopping the the guy's telepathy from being able to affect the entire planet is electromagnetic interference from Magneto that was built up over years. Stick him on a neutral planet without the electromagnetic interference and the guy could probably one shot 95% of the people in the Low Herald and under categories with a mind blast.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by darthgoober
IMO Xavier warrants his spot as a low herald and shouldn't be allowed. From what I've heard the only thing stopping the the guy's telepathy from being able to affect the entire planet is electromagnetic interference from Magneto that was built up over years. Stick him on a neutral planet without the electromagnetic interference and the guy could probably one shot 95% of the people in the Low Herald and under categories with a mind blast.

Same goes for any top tier Marvel telepath. Jean (without tapping into Phoenix) and Emma Frost are in high meta tier. Are they THAT below Xavier (not to mention not being one trick pony- Xavier has only his TP to rely on).
So that's not that big of a case, in fact.

Raoul
Originally posted by tjcoady
Is it too late to say I'm interested in entering the tourney? I've never done one before, and I'm sure I'd get destroyed, but I'd like to try one.

nah man, you have time. just state your intent...

also, i think xavier is just a notch above most Marvel TP's, so he's deserving of being at least (as smurph said) borderline.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Same goes for any top tier Marvel telepath. Jean (without tapping into Phoenix) and Emma Frost are in high meta tier. Are they THAT below Xavier (not to mention not being one trick pony- Xavier has only his TP to rely on).
So that's not that big of a case, in fact.
Truth be told I'd vote against Jean as well. Isn't her primary mutant ability to house the Phoenix Force? Even if a version was picked that didn't happen to have the Phoenix force that mutant ability would still exist within her DNA which puts her over the cap. Just taking away the Phoenix Force is nothing more than a form of neutering that could likely easily be bypassed by a smart debater.

As for Xavier, for over 40 years he's been almost universally recognized as the most powerful mind on the planet. He may not be as versatile as some other psi's who also possess tk, but then again the Hulk isn't anywhere near as versatile as Ironman either.

Scoobless
Originally posted by darthgoober
Truth be told I'd vote against Jean as well. Isn't her primary mutant ability to house the Phoenix Force? Even if a version was picked that didn't happen to have the Phoenix force that mutant ability would still exist within her DNA which puts her over the cap. Just taking away the Phoenix Force is nothing more than a form of neutering that could likely easily be bypassed by a smart debater.

As for Xavier, for over 40 years he's been almost universally recognized as the most powerful mind on the planet. He may not be as versatile as some other psi's who also possess tk, but then again the Hulk isn't anywhere near as versatile as Ironman either.

Soooooo ..... Xavier Smash!!

no expression




stick out tongue

Sin I AM
is it still too late 2 join?

Original Smurph
Originally posted by darthgoober
Truth be told I'd vote against Jean as well. Isn't her primary mutant ability to house the Phoenix Force? Even if a version was picked that didn't happen to have the Phoenix force that mutant ability would still exist within her DNA which puts her over the cap. Just taking away the Phoenix Force is nothing more than a form of neutering that could likely easily be bypassed by a smart debater.
Jean Grey is a legitimate character with plenty of phoenix-less appearances. Drafting a version of her that's not "ZOMG EAT THE SUNZ!!!" powerful doesn't mean that you're neutering, any more than drafting early versions of Cable, Spawn or Gambit.

And I'd like to see anybody somehow legally obtain the Phoenix Force to "bypass" drafting Jean without it.

Just sayin'...

srug

Original Smurph
Originally posted by tjcoady
Is it too late to say I'm interested in entering the tourney? I've never done one before, and I'm sure I'd get destroyed, but I'd like to try one. Originally posted by Sin I AM
is it still too late 2 join? No, this is just extremely early tourney discussion. We'll still be accepting entrants for a while.

Nice to see people giving tourneys a try. It's always more interesting when we get fresh ideas.

AlmightyKfish
After Delph's tourney I found out how to do precisely that =D

Original Smurph
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
After Delph's tourney I found out how to do precisely that =D Would it work in this tourney? mmm

PM me? Unless you want it hush hush for Delph's next tourney.

illadelph12
meanfox

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by illadelph12
meanfox

That's terrifying.






Meh, I doubt I'd use Jean if I entered this tourney anyway, so I'll PM you and keep it hush to own you all in Delph's Season 2 evil face

It's not like it could be stopped anyway
big grin

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Original Smurph
URGENT BULLETIN

Don't share too many plans yet. Everything's in planning- we don't really know how big teams are gonna be, or if there will be teams, etc.

I'm looking at you, Scoob/Leo/Steve/etc.

Shhh.

Scoobless
Originally posted by Original Smurph
URGENT BULLETIN

Don't share too many plans yet. Everything's in planning- we don't really know how big teams are gonna be, or if there will be teams, etc.

I'm looking at you, Scoob/Leo/Steve/etc.

Shhh.

Screw you, Stilt Man + Rhino FTW!!!!!!

darthgoober
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Jean Grey is a legitimate character with plenty of phoenix-less appearances. Drafting a version of her that's not "ZOMG EAT THE SUNZ!!!" powerful doesn't mean that you're neutering, any more than drafting early versions of Cable, Spawn or Gambit.

And I'd like to see anybody somehow legally obtain the Phoenix Force to "bypass" drafting Jean without it.

Just sayin'...

srug
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
After Delph's tourney I found out how to do precisely that =D

Told you. That's why neutering never works, there's almost ALWAYS a way to get them back up to "full power". If the Phoenix Force itself was completely barred from the tourney(as in, it's against the rules to bring Jean up to full power) that's one thing, but just making her START the tourney without it is nothing more than neutering IMO.

leonidas
who's steve? no expression

and i told you scoob--stiltman+rhino for season 2 of delph's league! damn, you. just couldn't keep it secret, eh?! meh, guess it's all right. not like there's any defense against a combo like that.

Ha Son
Originally posted by leonidas
who's steve? no expression
Redatom65 (Tom Joad).

batdude123
Originally posted by leonidas
who's steve? no expression

and i told you scoob--stiltman+rhino for season 2 of delph's league! damn, you. just couldn't keep it secret, eh?! meh, guess it's all right. not like there's any defense against a combo like that.

Me.

Don't listen to that doucher Ha Son.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by darthgoober
Told you. That's why neutering never works, there's almost ALWAYS a way to get them back up to "full power". If the Phoenix Force itself was completely barred from the tourney(as in, it's against the rules to bring Jean up to full power) that's one thing, but just making her START the tourney without it is nothing more than neutering IMO. But it's not neutering.

Neutering is taking Superman and insisting that he only exerts enough power to be High Meta.

The list of characters that have the potential to exceed high meta that are, at normal power levels, below high meta is very long. Banning Jean on the basis that she could possibly be amped through clever strategies and a list of good drafts is no more justified than banning any tourney strategy involving amping perfectly legal characters past their normal power level.

Havok once "sun-dipped" and took out Vulcan. Should we ban him?

Scoobless
Originally posted by Original Smurph
But it's not neutering.

Neutering is taking Superman and insisting that he only exerts enough power to be High Meta.

The list of characters that have the potential to exceed high meta that are, at normal power levels, below high meta is very long. Banning Jean on the basis that she could possibly be amped through clever strategies and a list of good drafts is no more justified than banning any tourney strategy involving amping perfectly legal characters past their normal power level.

Havok once "sun-dipped" and took out Vulcan. Should we ban him?

I'd say that anyone who can amp themselves beyond high meta level without any outside assistance should be banned.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Scoobless
I'd say that anyone who can amp themselves beyond high meta level without any outside assistance should be banned. I agree... I think?

That's why we've banned people that can multiply, people that copy powers, etc.

As far as characters that can absorb energy, I guess it's case by case. No way if Havok going to get a reliable, consistent amount of energy to absorb in order to be significantly more powerful without outside assistance.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Original Smurph
But it's not neutering.

Neutering is taking Superman and insisting that he only exerts enough power to be High Meta.

The list of characters that have the potential to exceed high meta that are, at normal power levels, below high meta is very long. Banning Jean on the basis that she could possibly be amped through clever strategies and a list of good drafts is no more justified than banning any tourney strategy involving amping perfectly legal characters past their normal power level.

Havok once "sun-dipped" and took out Vulcan. Should we ban him?
Of course it's neutering. She's the primary host for the Phoenix Force because her primary mutation is to house the Phoenix Force correct? That means that whether the version that's drafted is actually using the Phoenix Force during that period or not, the gene that allows for her primary mutation is still in her DNA sequence. Drafting a version that doesn't use the Phoenix Force just means that you picked a version that for whatever reason wasn't using the ability, it doesn't mean that the version in question doesn't HAVE the ability.

I agree that she COULD be a viable pick, but only if the Phoenix Force itself was barred with no possible way for her to access it.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by darthgoober
Drafting a version that doesn't use the Phoenix Force just means that you picked a version that for whatever reason wasn't using the ability, it doesn't mean that the version in question doesn't HAVE the ability. Funny, that one.

I hadn't realized that Jean was actually an omnipotent goddess throughout the entire X-Men series since Day 1, and just chose not to bother with her godlike powers just cuz.

Misleading phrasing, much?

darthgoober
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Funny, that one.

I hadn't realized that Jean was actually an omnipotent goddess throughout the entire X-Men series since Day 1, and just chose not to bother with her godlike powers just cuz.

Misleading phrasing, much?
You're talking about someone who suffered severe trauma as a child and carried around her own mental blocks as well as Xavier's telepathic blocks on her abilities for years. Isn't there a scan floating around where Jean and Bobby discover that Xavier ALWAYS knew about their amazing potential and hasn't Xavier been saying since before the original Phoenix Saga that Jean was actually the most powerful of his students?

Original Smurph
Originally posted by darthgoober
You're talking about someone who suffered severe trauma as a child and carried around her own mental blocks as well as Xavier's own telepathic blocks on her abilities for years. Isn't there a scan floating around where Jean and Bobby discover that Xavier ALWAYS knew about their amazing potential and hasn't Xavier been saying since before the original Phoenix Saga that Jean was actually the most powerful of his students? EXACTLY.

Jean under her own power can't gain the power of the Phoenix Force.

Therefore, we're not neutering. She's a legitimate character.

If people want to ban her for other reasons, so be it. The only point I'm refuting here is the assertion that Jean is being neutered.

Neutering it taking a character's regular power level and decreasing it to a level that is never shown in comics. It's creating a character that doesn't exist.

Jean Grey exists without access to the PF. Unlike you construed in the last post, Goober, she doesn't arbitrarily decide not to use it.

She couldn't.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Original Smurph
EXACTLY.

Jean under her own power can't gain the power of the Phoenix Force.

Therefore, we're not neutering. She's a legitimate character.

If people want to ban her for other reasons, so be it. The only point I'm refuting here is the assertion that Jean is being neutered.

Neutering it taking a character's regular power level and decreasing it to a level that is never shown in comics. It's creating a character that doesn't exist.

Jean Grey exists without access to the PF. Unlike you construed in the last post, Goober, she doesn't arbitrarily decide not to use it.

She couldn't.
She's accessed the Phoenix Force on her own a couple of times I think, it just takes a stressful enough of a situation(I remember one time in particular when there were protesters at the Academy). Since this is a "No PIS/No CIS", any mental blocks she has won't be factored in by the judges.

And I'm not talking about banning Jean, I'm talking about banning the Phoenix Force. If Jean is just being drafted as a high meta psi then that's ok with me, but drafting her as the primary host for the Phoenix Force from an issue/arc when the writers didn't know about it and thought her mutant powers were limited to TP and/or TK qualifies as neutering IMO because you're drafting a character who's powers actually exceed the Cap, it's just that no one knew about it at the time. You might say "I'm drafting THIS version of Jean because her feats for the period fit within tourney limits", but once the match starts all you have to do is post a recton that places Jean/'s primary mutation as being the host for the Phoenix Force and everything changes. It may not be the exact form of neutering that's normally discussed during tourney's, but it definitely seems like a TYPE of neutering to me.

It's like drafting classic Jubilee as a low meta based on her actual feats and then using her ability to detonate a building on a sub atomic level come match time.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by darthgoober
And I'm not talking about banning Jean, I'm talking about banning the Phoenix Force. If Jean is just being drafted as a high meta psi then that's ok with me, but drafting her as the primary host for the Phoenix Force from an issue/arc when the writers didn't know about it and thought her mutant powers were limited to TP and/or TK qualifies as neutering IMO because you're drafting a character who's powers actually exceed the Cap, it's just that no one knew about it at the time. You might say "I'm drafting THIS version of Jean because her feats for the period fit within tourney limits", but once the match starts all you have to do is post a recton that places Jean/'s primary mutation as being the host for the Phoenix Force and everything changes.
You know that wouldn't happen in a tourney.

There are also versions of Jean Grey that were legitimately without the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force is an entity that bonded with Jean occaisionally, but not always.

If somebody tries to say "actually, this character that I drafted is secretly high herald", we kick them out. Simple as.

Jean can be drafted sans-phoenix, she may be able to be drafted sans-retcon (depending on what everyone thinks), and she's perfectly elligible.

Nobody could be drafted if they were secretly harboring the phoenix force though. She'd have to be a PF-less version, either pre-retcon or simply one that didn't have the PF at that moment in time.

Original Smurph
Pachi says:
k. Anyways, just tell Darth that for the purposes of this tournament, we will be taking the stance that Jean Grey and the Phoenix are two seperate entities. Jean Greys powers are telepathy/telekinisis.
Pachi says:
She has at points hosted the PF. That is all.

Pachi = Blair = Chris

He sums it up well.

I suppose we could hash out history after retcon after retcon etc, but for the tourney, we're interpreting that they, as seperate entities, are not always together. I've talked with people in previous tourneys that have taken Jean, and sorted out her PF-less feats, so I feel confident that this isn't gonna be a problem.

There are possibly still ways to restore Jean to full power, but it'll be a challenge. I've heard theories though...

darthgoober
Originally posted by Original Smurph
You know that wouldn't happen in a tourney.

There are also versions of Jean Grey that were legitimately without the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force is an entity that bonded with Jean occaisionally, but not always.

If somebody tries to say "actually, this character that I drafted is secretly high herald", we kick them out. Simple as.

Jean can be drafted sans-phoenix, she may be able to be drafted sans-retcon (depending on what everyone thinks), and she's perfectly elligible.

Nobody could be drafted if they were secretly harboring the phoenix force though. She'd have to be a PF-less version, either pre-retcon or simply one that didn't have the PF at that moment in time.
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Pachi says:
k. Anyways, just tell Darth that for the purposes of this tournament, we will be taking the stance that Jean Grey and the Phoenix are two seperate entities. Jean Greys powers are telepathy/telekinisis.
Pachi says:
She has at points hosted the PF. That is all.

Pachi = Blair = Chris

He sums it up well.

I suppose we could hash out history after retcon after retcon etc, but for the tourney, we're interpreting that they, as seperate entities, are not always together. I've talked with people in previous tourneys that have taken Jean, and sorted out her PF-less feats, so I feel confident that this isn't gonna be a problem.

There are possibly still ways to restore Jean to full power, but it'll be a challenge. I've heard theories though...

Sounds cool, I was just wanting to make sure that loophole wasn't open for exploitation. Like I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with Jean as she's normally portrayed, I just didn't want anyone drafting her as her and getting her as Phoenix when CIS was removed. I mean come on, we've seen Trickster try to assemble the Warloog via time/dimension hopping during prep, is it really such a stretch to expect someone to draft Jean and say "Hah, I really drafted Phoenix since her self imposed limitations are removed..."? Remove CIS and encourage loopholes and you're likely to deal with ridiculous strategies out the wazoo...

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by darthgoober
Sounds cool, I was just wanting to make sure that loophole wasn't open for exploitation. Like I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with Jean as she's normally portrayed, I just didn't want anyone drafting her as her and getting her as Phoenix when CIS was removed. I mean come on, we've seen Trickster try to assemble the Warloog via time/dimension hopping during prep, is it really such a stretch to expect someone to draft Jean and say "Hah, I really drafted Phoenix since her self imposed limitations are removed..."? Remove CIS and encourage loopholes and you're likely to deal with ridiculous strategies out the wazoo...

As far as I see that, exploits through the absence of CIS are in fact neutering (also I've always referred to CIS as to the way of battle planning (the same way it's stipulated in the updated rules), so you can decide what to do or not to do with character).
CIL (character induced limutations) refer to the character-established inhinitions on their powerset (mental blocks etc).

I think that the absence of CIS should only allow for "free battle planning without taking personality into account", not for being able to draft characters without mental blocks.

Scoobless
What about the likes of Cable and Gambit? (and others probably)

Cable ("classic" version) had access to Nate Grey power levels (which is the next thing to PF) which he rarely used because his body would suffer ... his power was always there and available for use though.

Gambit has the whole mental block on New Sun thing (from what I understand ... never actually read that story) which means the power is already his without amping.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by Scoobless
What about the likes of Cable and Gambit? (and others probably)

Cable ("classic" version) had access to Nate Grey power levels (which is the next thing to PF) which he rarely used because his body would suffer ... his power was always there and available for use though.

Gambit has the whole mental block on New Sun thing (from what I understand ... never actually read that story) which means the power is already his without amping.

I think exploits through the teamwork are playsible. It's not like it would be lots of blatant cases of those... no amalgams, remember.

With Cable you'll have to remove TO from his body to put him on Soldier X level. Impossible under one's own power.

Scoobless
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
With Cable you'll have to remove TO from his body to put him on Soldier X level. Impossible under one's own power.

Not true, he can easily use his full power level for brief periods ... and in a tourney match where death doesn't carry from round to round there's no reason at all not to go all "Jesus Cable".

darthgoober
Originally posted by Scoobless
What about the likes of Cable and Gambit? (and others probably)

Cable ("classic" version) had access to Nate Grey power levels (which is the next thing to PF) which he rarely used because his body would suffer ... his power was always there and available for use though.

Gambit has the whole mental block on New Sun thing (from what I understand ... never actually read that story) which means the power is already his without amping.
Originally Gambit had a chunk of his brain removed to tone down his potential powers and they burned out after his upgrade so I don't think there's much to worry about from him, you've got a good point about Cable though...

Original Smurph
Depends on the incarnation of Cable.

90's X-Force Cable, for instance, could barely muster any telekinetic force, and trained to become able to use "more" of his power. He, if I recall correctly, couldn't really access it at all.

Because we don't have to worry about what specific tier a character's in (like we did in Delph's tourney), none of this is really that big of a deal. If a character can, under their own power, exceed the high meta cap, they're not allowed. Pretty straight forward.

As for Gambit, 616 version had brain surgery from Sinister to ensure he couldn't be New Sun. He can't, under his own power, attain those levels.

Original Smurph
K, so I'm getting questions about the speed cap.

It's been claimed that Iron Man is > Mach 10 (the current speed cap), so characters should be allowed to be drafted if they are capable of going > Mach 10.

Maybe we shouldn't have a speed cap at all, and just leave it at the idea that if they're > high meta, they get banned?

Seems ambiguous.

Thoughts?

Digi
With speed, you're really only talking about a few that would raise issues about easy speedblitz wins. You'd really only be talking about maybe Classic Jay Garrick (sans speed force), Classic QS, and people in their range (I know there's a few others that are similar, but are more obscure).

A speed cap never hurts, though, just in case someone obscure gets shuffled in that's well beyond even the two I mentioned. If you leave it ambigous, it will be exploited, because people are always more tenacious about picks than hosts can be about researching them.

id369
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Jean Grey is a legitimate character with plenty of phoenix-less appearances. Drafting a version of her that's not "ZOMG EAT THE SUNZ!!!" powerful doesn't mean that you're neutering, any more than drafting early versions of Cable, Spawn or Gambit.

And I'd like to see anybody somehow legally obtain the Phoenix Force to "bypass" drafting Jean without it. What Goob states is true. By current events, Jean and her decedents can claim the force if it is available.

Just sayin'...

srug

I am not going to point out the loophole. But yes, there is a way to legitimately gain the Phoenix Force. Clear as day light, I am sure of it. It does not even matter if you neuter the characters into Phoenixless avatars.


I am sending you the PM.

Charlotte DeBel
Originally posted by id369
I am not going to point out the loophole. But yes, there is a way to legitimately gain the Phoenix Force. Clear as day light, I am sure of it. It does not even matter if you neuter the characters into Phoenixless avatars.


I am sending you the PM.

I may be sleepy, but right now I can think of only one cheap and high-meta'ish way...but require amalgamation (probably).

Scoobless
Originally posted by Original Smurph
K, so I'm getting questions about the speed cap.

It's been claimed that Iron Man is > Mach 10 (the current speed cap), so characters should be allowed to be drafted if they are capable of going > Mach 10.

Maybe we shouldn't have a speed cap at all, and just leave it at the idea that if they're > high meta, they get banned?

Seems ambiguous.

Thoughts?

Iron Man isn't that fast, I remember seeing him push to Mach 7-8 one time in the last few years but normally he doesn't get above mach 3.

The Pict
Any official time for this starting up? I am interested in participating but I won't be able to put serious effort in for the next 10 days or so.

Digi
Just ban mutants. Far easier.

yes

Battlehammer
how about we ban digi

batdude123
Originally posted by Scoobless
Iron Man isn't that fast, I remember seeing him push to Mach 7-8 one time in the last few years but normally he doesn't get above mach 3.

We've seen Iron Man go into outer space which requires a minimum speed of escape velocity.

Escape velocity>>>Mach 10

Originally posted by Battlehammer
how about we ban digi

Best idea I've ever heard.

Digi
Originally posted by batdude123
Best idea I've ever heard.

...fine by me. Though judging by recent tourneys we've had, that puts the list of reliable judges for this thing back down to 0.

srug

illadelph12
1, actually.

batdude123
Originally posted by Digi
...fine by me. Though judging by recent tourneys we've had, that puts the list of reliable judges for this thing back down to 0.

srug Judges owned.

Digi
Originally posted by illadelph12
1, actually.

Sorry delph, didn't know you were on board.

wink

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