TPM Qui-Gon vs. AOTC Anakin

Janus Marius

But you're comparing apples and oranges in that case. Kenobi's style is exclusively defensive. He must give ground since his fighting style cannot capitalize on a strong offense. Maul's style is Juyo, and since it is most certainly not paraded as a defensive fighting style, I have to wonder at why Maul is supposively a master at it.

"Predictably, he seeks to unbalance you with his erratic attacks. His technique is called Juyo, the most chaotic of the lightsaber forms. This form sacrifices much to bolster offense, leaving one exposed to attack by the Force." - Kreia.

Emphasis mine.

Millennia prior to the Galactic Civil War, Juyo was ascribed the moniker of the "Ferocity form" due to its aggressive nature. Its use was stated as being best against a single formidable opponent.

Again, it's supposed to be aggressive and offensive. But Maul was neither when he was confronted with both Jedi. He had to give ground so he could take one down separately. When confronted with both, he cannot make any headway, but when alone, he can quickly demolish them. It's the weakness of his fighting form.

In comparison, Dooku is not hampered by fighting both. He doesn't actively give ground, and if anything he does rather well using their styles against them, letting their meshing limit their attacks and then capitalizing on their mistakes. If the situations were reversed, then Dooku would be the one easily handling Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon (Especially since he trained the latter) while Maul would still be giving ground before Obi and Anakin since his strength lies in fighting one opponent viciously.

However, since Juyo does require higher levels of learning in multiple lightsaber forms, it makes me wonder why Maul's fighting style is so one-dimensional. So while I am presenting a viewpoint here that Maul only really excels at one opponent, realistically according to Juyo's creators (In the Fightsaber article) and Cin Drallig, Maul should be skilled enough to do better than what he did. Either that, or he just didn't feel the need to switch it up in the fight, preferring to toy with the Jedi until he could destroy one alone. I can't fault that for being in-character. I could argue that Maul is capable of performing better based on the requirements of his own fighting style which he is supposively a master of, but that he has never shown us that his mastery is enough to overcome a novice Ataru user and a practiced Ataru user. That's not a huge accomplishment in his favor, ankle or no.

Agreed, Maul was a good combatant. I don't mean to demean him so much. But his showings in-movie were rather low when you put it into perspective. Dooku manhandles two similar opponents twice in the series without having to separate them each time.

So Maul's ankle made him a substandard fighter against an enraged padawan? I'd be willing to chalk some of his initial losses up to his arrogance and not apply such a blanket statement about the situation, but the reality is that Maul was quickly overcome by an amateur whereas Dooku disabled padawan Anakin and then severed his arm without anything so messy as being kicked on his ass and his lightsaber being chopped in half.

The point is that Maul's only real canon showings which are somehow excused because of a bad ankle, are his ONLY real canon showings. Maul's defense is not airtight like Count Dooku's was during similar battles. Dooku held off Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin duo twice, and bested Mace earlier in his career. Maul destroyed what's-his-face the EU-only Jedi Master of uberness and Qui-Gon Jinn, while getting curbstomped by a pissed of Ewan MacGregor.

If I have to compare them side-by-side, then my vote goes to Dooku as being the clear "better" of the two.

I wasn't aware that his fight with Anoon had happened the same day as his fight with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. But then I haven't read the book in a couple of years. I may be mistaken.

Also, I'm not sure we could accurately argue the strain of previous activities on the Jedi. That would be arguing an unknown entity, and it's kind of silly. Yes, I could logically assume doing something like reflecting blaster bolts might make Obi-Wan and Anakin tired somewhat, but then again I think that's kind of silly. Obi-Wan has spent years perfecting a style which defends against blaster fire; how did he do that if he can't handle a five minute battle without getting winded? For that matter, how could any Jedi claim to be a worthwhile Jedi if light battle activity saps their strength enough to be noticed? Did not Yoda say a Jedi's strength flows from the Force? I don't remember him saying "Luke, don't you go messing around with blaster bolts, or you might be too tired to beat Vader."

Janus Marius

Thank you for proofreading.

And my gods in heaven... fighting Qui-Gon for an impressive what? Thirty seconds before encountering them hours later on another planet? It's a wonder he could still walk!

</sarcasm>

Eminence

...

They mean the Naboo fight. Maul fights Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together, then everyone gets separated, then Maul fights a revitalized Qui-Gon , kills him, and fights and disarms a sort of rested and very ticked off Obi-Wan.

Janus Marius

...

That's the worst justification I've ever seen for "revitalized". Qui-Gon sat down and cleared his mind, long enough to think about the sound of one hand clapping, and suddenly he's "revitalized"? Is that why he had his ass handed to him with ease by someone who's apparently crippled by his arthritic ankle? And while Obi-Wan was sitting there, antsy, bouncing up and down waiting for the barrier to come down, was he rested too? Are Jedi like self-perpetuating batteries that charge themselves instantly when not in use?

Or, the tl:dr version - what difference does it make? Anakin and Obi-Wan "revitalized" or "rested" while they were flying after Dooku's unicycle on the way to his little hangar. OMG, they were like nu jedi!

Eminence

I was explaining what Nemesis was explaining.Originally posted by Janus Marius
...

That's the worst justification I've ever seen for "revitalized". Qui-Gon sat down and cleared his mind, long enough to think about the sound of one hand clapping, and suddenly he's "revitalized"? Is that why he had his ass handed to him with ease by someone who's apparently crippled by his arthritic ankle? And while Obi-Wan was sitting there, antsy, bouncing up and down waiting for the barrier to come down, was he rested too? Are Jedi like self-perpetuating batteries that charge themselves instantly when not in use?Dooku did it in RotS when he had literally a moment to spare. Seems plausible enough.

Janus Marius

I know, I was being silly.

I'd argue that he just found his focus and managed his exhaustion. Kind of like being in a fight, getting your ass kicked, and realizing that "Hey, I fight for something more important than this" and winning. Kind of like how Yoda steeled himself and turned that Sith lightning attack back on Sidious, despite being nearly bent over backwards. If we're to allow that Force users recharge whenever they have a spare minute of not fighting, you could conceivably argue that all Force users are in prime condition, and thus the idea of "exhaustion" becomes moot. Maul, too, was pacing and not fighting. For all we know, he was recharging his super duper Force battery too.

Again, I don't see why Maul needs excuses for his poor performance. That's my main concern.

Advent

Originally posted by Janus Marius
But you're comparing apples and oranges in that case. Kenobi's style is exclusively defensive. He must give ground since his fighting style cannot capitalize on a strong offense. Maul's style is Juyo, and since it is most certainly not paraded as a defensive fighting style, I have to wonder at why Maul is supposively a master at it.

"Predictably, he seeks to unbalance you with his erratic attacks. His technique is called Juyo, the most chaotic of the lightsaber forms. This form sacrifices much to bolster offense, leaving one exposed to attack by the Force." - Kreia.

Emphasis mine.

Millennia prior to the Galactic Civil War, Juyo was ascribed the moniker of the "Ferocity form" due to its aggressive nature. Its use was stated as being best against a single formidable opponent.

I could see your point if saber combat wasn't versatile and was solely based upon a single form's description. But it isn't. Makashi itself was said to be most tailored to single opponents, but we've seen that's not always the case with competent masters.

Your main point here is actually your main flaw - the form does not matter . Simply utilizing Soresu doesn't put one in the driver's seat of every fight. For example, a Soresu user could be giving ground, but not because he wants to (being forced) or being unable to launch an counterattack while doing such. So form is irrelevant.

Maul's going on the defensive supports him being in control if that's what he had planned. And indeed, it was. And indeed, he was in control.

What happens on Mustafar is exact same thing as Maul leading the two Jedi. Hence, there's no oranges here; just apples.

"Their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.

But on this day, he had met his match. The Sith Lord he battled with Obi - Wan was more than his equal in weapons training, and he had the advantage of being younger and stronger.

His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defense.

So they challenged the Sith Lord quickly, and just as quickly discovered that their best efforts were not good enough

They should have won this battle long ago. Against any other opponent, they would have. But the Sith Lord was battle trained and seasoned well beyond anyone they had ever encountered before. He had matched them blow for blow, and they weren't any closer to winning this fight now than they had been in the beginning." (The Phantom Menace, Ch. 23)

This guy sure knows what he's talking about.

^ See above; there's nothing supporting the diea that his strength lied solely in one-on-one or that two-on-one fights were a problem for him. In fact, quite the contrary. Remember, he is a master of Teras Kasi, which we've seen through AMATEURS (Zan and Zu Pike) is capable of taking down handfuls of opponents at the same time. Maul incorporates Teras Kasi into his routine. His fighting style is custom, and clearly taking on two people was no problem for him as he LOVED the fact it was a two-on-one duel.

His daily warm-up exercise was to clear four of the deadliest droid models in the galaxy in under sixty seconds. Your telling me multiple opponents are a problem for him is laughable. You put far too much emphasis on things as simple as form descriptions.

You think so? I see it the entire other way around. In perspective, his showings were extremely high. Otherwise, he is made to look like an underpowered henchman.

1. To answer your initial question: yes, the injury certainly played a part in the "loss", it is outright stated in the source that notes it.

2. Where have I said an injury was the only reason for his loss? It's easy to place emphasis on one point and not address the others, but that doesn't do much to advance the argument.

3. Factors in Maul's "loss" against Kenobi that absolutely do add up:

- An injured ankle.
- Fighting two people at once beforehand, hence having to expend much more energy.
- Fighting one of the greatest duelist in the Order's history one-on-one beforehand, hence having to expend much more energy.
- Caught off guard by Kenobi drawing off his emotions (tapping into the dark side).

Kenobi's burst of rage, according to the movie, script & novel, was a temporary advantage until Maul regained his composure. Ignoring all of that, I could just point out that the battle was complete and utter PIS, because it was.

Totally irrelevant. I wasn't disputing whether or not he's more powerful, only that your reasoning for such makes zero sense, because:

Originally posted by Advent
He was quite clearly controlling the fight.

meaning that your analysis of the duel was wrong,

and

Originally posted by Advent
It wasn't a similar situation in the least bit, Janus.

meaning that the duel in AotC versus the TPM duel differ on several levels, thus they cannot be compared as you tried to do.

Originally posted by Eminence
...

They mean the Naboo fight. Maul fights Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together, then everyone gets separated, then Maul fights a revitalized Qui-Gon , kills him, and fights and disarms a sort of rested and very ticked off Obi-Wan.

Yeah, just a few blaster bolts, Janus...watch the movie please.

Advent

Originally posted by Janus Marius
...

That's the worst justification I've ever seen for "revitalized". Qui-Gon sat down and cleared his mind, long enough to think about the sound of one hand clapping, and suddenly he's "revitalized"? Is that why he had his ass handed to him with ease by someone who's apparently crippled by his arthritic ankle? And while Obi-Wan was sitting there, antsy, bouncing up and down waiting for the barrier to come down, was he rested too? Are Jedi like self-perpetuating batteries that charge themselves instantly when not in use?

Or, the tl:dr version - what difference does it make? Anakin and Obi-Wan "revitalized" or "rested" while they were flying after Dooku's unicycle on the way to his little hangar. OMG, they were like nu jedi!

Novel: "He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied."

Furthermore, the script also says that Qui-Gon was fighting with 'a ferocity not seen before'.

Hewhoknowsall

Qui Gon = Master

Anakin = Padawan

Of course, rank isn't only based on fighting prowess; otherwise Anakin would've been a master by ROTS, but the fact that Qui Gon could stalemate Mace means something. Which is wierd...how come Qui Gon can stalemate one of the greatest Jedi ever but gets beaten by a sith apprentice even 2 vs 1?

And oh yeah...Dooku didn't fight both of them a once in AOTC, he zapped Anakin, pwned Obi Wan, surprisingly seemed to struggle (a bit) with Anakin, and then fights Yoda. But not at once.

Kodiak

Qui-Gon ftw. He has more experience and is a jedi master while on the other hand, AOTC Anakin is a padawan. Qui-Gon also put up a much better fight against Maul than Anakin did against Dooku.

Janus Marius

Advent, kudos to you for bringing some meat to the table. Rest assured I'm not ignoring you, but that will take some time to respond to, and I'm not able to find my TPM DVD at the moment (WHich is what I get for potentially loaning it out). PM me if I don't reply in a few days, as I have a habit of getting sidetracked.

Advent

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Advent, kudos to you for bringing some meat to the table. Rest assured I'm not ignoring you, but that will take some time to respond to, and I'm not able to find my TPM DVD at the moment (WHich is what I get for potentially loaning it out). PM me if I don't reply in a few days, as I have a habit of getting sidetracked.

'Tis okay, chances are there won't be another Advent sighting for quite some time anyways. stick out tongue

Hewhoknowsall

@Advent, I assume that you are siding with the very young padawan apprentice over the wise old master, right? Because you've done a good job of explaining how Maul > Dooku but not how Anakin > Qui Gon

CadoAngelus

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Qui Gon = Master

Anakin = Padawan

Of course, rank isn't only based on fighting prowess; otherwise Anakin would've been a master by ROTS, but the fact that Qui Gon could stalemate Mace means something. Which is wierd...how come Qui Gon can stalemate one of the greatest Jedi ever but gets beaten by a sith apprentice even 2 vs 1?

And oh yeah...Dooku didn't fight both of them a once in AOTC, he zapped Anakin, pwned Obi Wan, surprisingly seemed to struggle (a bit) with Anakin, and then fights Yoda. But not at once.

Dooku didn't even make a whole fight duelling Anakin and Obi-Wan i RotS, he duelled them both for about 2mins and then force pushed Obi-Wan across the room...

no idea why he did that, but that just tells me that in order to make it easier for himself he used his "superior" force skills to make up for his naff saber skill against two jedi...

Janus Marius

Makashi is stated to be tailored towards single opponents according to KotOR lore which is reflected in its game mechanics. Prior to this, there is no mention of such by the Fightsaber article, which is the effective ground work for the lightsaber styles based on canon precedents.

The part of the revised, "modernized" Fightsaber article that was from the original states simply this:

A refinement of blade-against-blade combat, Form II has produced some of the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen. By the time of Star Wars saga, Form II had pretty much become an archaic curiosity, as modern Jedi had not faced lightsaber-wielding foes in over a thousand years.

So the idea of Makashi being dumbed down to simply a "single person dueling form, bad against blaster bolts" is a KotOR construct and one of the worst mind-bugs in the SW EU universe. We should probably try and avoid those definitions, including my previous post, since they're so contradictory and false. Back to Makashi, however... Its definition, however, argues that it's the best at fighting blade-to-blade by its very nature. The idea behind the form is to overcome lightsaber combatants, meaning it was not generated to cover for a given weakness but instead capitalize on another's.

To compare it with Juyo:

Only high-level masters of multiple Forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII. This is the most difficult and demanding of all Forms, but it can eventually lead to fantastic power and skill. Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V but not so elaborate in appearance as Form VI. In addition to very advanced Force-assisted jumps and movements, Form VII tactics overwhelm opponents with seemingly unconnected staccato sequences, making the Form highly unpredictable in battle. This trait makes for a much more difficult execution than the graceful, linked move sequences of Form IV. Form VII requires the intensity of Form V, but much greater energy since the focus is wielded more broadly. Form VII draws upon a deeper well of emotion than even Form V, yet masters it more fully. The outward bearing of a Form VII practitioner is one of calm, but the inner pressure verges on explosion. As such, in the wrong hands, Form VII could easily become a gateway to dark side aggression and passions. It is also known as the Way of the Vornskr or the Ferocity Form.

It's difficult to remember which parts are embellished or modified from this particular description, but most of it seems accurate enough. The key trait is apparently unpredictability and bold movements, among an emotional well which fuels the Force.

Arguing "form doesn't matter" totally neglects the mindset behind each form itself. If they didn't matter, or they were a connected series of parries, jumps, and swings, they could not be argued to be fighting philosophies, which their descriptions point out. Juyo, for example, is highly emotional but stresses control and master of other philosophies in order to give it diversity. This differs from Niman, which pays lip service to a few styles in a short time to give importance to the real idea behind that form - to be a non-martial Jedi in function. If you were to simply narrow them down to skills, Niman and Juyo would be indistinguishable from an outsider if there was no mental component behind them. They both use the same tools, do they not?

Now, to tie this into your assertion about Maul driving the fight; this is not always the case. It's clear from watching the video (Which I've had on loop while typing this up) that he attempts to separate them at any given opportunity, and that he cannot quickly and easily take one of them down out of the fight, nor can he easily kill one. Even when Obi-Wan is effectively kicked down to another walkway and out of the fight, Maul continues to give ground to Qui-Gon for another couple of minutes before finally capitalizing on his opening when he decides to go offensive. I'll step out of the argument here for a second and assert that Maul isn't using Juyo at all in this case. He isn't relying on an emotional well to use bold, direct movements to overwhelm his opponents; he's turtling and positioning them until he can finally render a decisive blow. This isn't too far from the Soresu tree in terms of fighting philosophy. The main difference between how he operates and how Dooku operates is that the latter can give very little ground and manage his opponents with ease, whereas Maul is constantly fighting to keep himself from being boxed in, kicked, backhanded, etc. Maul only controls the fight when he changes his attitude and presses the advantage against a singular opponent. Based on his performance, he is not skilled or confident enough to defeat two capable Jedi in the same manner. Dooku easily manages his opponents and puts them out of the fight when he's good and ready. He controls the pacing, not the Jedi.

I wouldn't exactly compare Musfatar and the Duel of Fates either since it doesn't do Maul any favors. Obi-Wan acted very similarly, barely able to contain the pacing of the fight, giving ground and working hard to maintain his neck, whereas Dooku never allows himself to be put in that kind of position. His footwork, pacing, and ability to deflect attacks from almost any angle make him the superior duelist to both.

I don't see why folks here at KMC always point me towards novelization passages, which are clearly defined in the canon statements issued by LucasArts as "interpretations" and containing material by GL which may either be changed or embellished. I'm comparing the footage of the actual fights, which makes more sense. What you're suggesting here is that we rely on descriptions by third parties, kind of like I judge Mohammed Ali versus Mike Tyson solely by reading their autobiographies, or reading newspaper descriptions of their fights. It's not the same.

I've watched the video many times, and it's apparent that Maul barely controls the defensive posture he's set up for himself. Part of him is giving ground to maintain his advantage, and part of him is losing ground because he cannot push forward. Again, even when Obi-Wan is removed from the equation and the footing is equal to both, Maul is initially unable to push the advantage, working defense almost up until the moment he overcomes Qui-Gon Jinn. He's not overwhelming his opponents, period. He's playing close to the chest until they make a fatal mistake, but like Obi-Wan, it's entirely too close. He's not leagues above his opponents and leading the whole fight like Dooku. A superior fighter controls the terms of the engagement, he doesn't have to fight to keep himself above water.

Janus Marius

Teras Kasi, though, is mostly an unarmed discipline. While it's true that he incorporates some of the moves into his lightsaber fighting, I don't see how the unarmed works of others has any bearing on this fight. Maul did not demolish Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan within seconds. He did not easily fend of their attacks, and nor was he able to decisively separate them (He had the benefit of the energy walls, or else he would have been forced to engage both Jedi again). In comparison, Dooku pretty much puts people out of the fight when he's done with them. Obi-Wan was thrown out more times then I can count, and one benefit Dooku has over Maul is his control of the Force can be used interchangably with his superior lightsaber fighting, which Maul has not shown in similar scenarios. Anakin, while tougher and more aggressive than Obi-Wan as of AotC, didn't actually progress against the Sith Lord and was manhandled at the Count's pacing. In RotS, when working together, Obi-Wan and Anakin were victims to his machinations. One of the most telling examples of how he controlled the fight was this:

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6019/000obithrow9wk1wy.gif

While taking on two opponents of considerable skill, one positions at his six and another directly in front of him, he decisively broke up the engagement, KO'd one of the combatants, and threw off the balance of the second.

Here's an example of Dooku fending of a flurry of blows from Anakin and Obi-Wan, which far outshines the TPM barrage Maul barely weathered. The casual way in which he controls the blades, even working them up higher and holding them off, shows his saber skill is far superior to his opponents. Even when they pressed the Count, he made sure they earned very little ground and even less of a practical advantage, being no better than they were before:

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/6369/anakinobiavatar6kw.gif

And here's him defending against an attack by Anakin in AotC, only to turn the momentum against Skywalker and have the Jedi backpedal:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5575/anidooku.gif

And again, since when are droids akin to Force-sensitive lightsaber using opponents? It's been awhile since I read the book, but I don't think the comparisons are accurate.

I question the legitimacy of this "injury" if it's not in the script of TPM, I don't see it being legit. This would be like me throwing in some EU flubber that Dooku was suffering from arthritis and gout, and thus Anakin overcame him. I don't think making excuses outside of proper canon really does anything to show Maul is a comparable fighter as Dooku. If anything, it's kind of sad that he has to get a whole book written about him that's topped off with an excuse for his defeat. Almost like fanboys couldn't accept that he wasn't the best or something.

You haven't, but seeing as up until this point the injury is the only concrete reason you have for his apparent lack of "overwhelming" his opponents and deciding the pacing of the fight (Besides from an unsupported assertion that Maul was indeed pacing the fight, despite the fact that he could not bring it to conclusion for several minutes and even then he was fortunate that the surroundings assisted him in separating the Jedi so that he wouldn't be forced to fight them again. Maul decided nothing in the fight, simply working hard to maintain a pacing which profited him in the end, but only after a great length of time. This is comparable with Obi-Wan's pyrrhic victory in RotS.

A lot of this is EU excuses or half-substantiated ideas of why Maul didn't win. PIS is obviously a factor, IMO, so I agree with your final statement. And I wish Maul hadn't been showcased so poorly, or at least they had better explained why he was unable to overcome the Jedi so easily. I'm a Ray Park fan, and I enjoyed the fight, but it doesn't make Maul top showings with all its glory. Looking at the original source material (The movie fight) and analyzing it based on what it really is, I can conclude that Maul was never totally in control of the fight until he had Qui-Gon alone in the generator room. At that point, he could exploit his opponents inadequate defense with a few swift movements. But he was unable to make that opportunity for himself through use of arms or the Force before this point, even when Obi-Wan was conveniently out of the way for a few seconds, so I'm forced to conclude that either he couldn't, or he wouldn't. Neither of which make your case for you.

No, it's not. You haven't substantiated that Maul was controlling the fight, you've just repeatedly asserted it and then made excuses for his lowest showings. This isn't proving anything.

After rewatching the AotC battle (I have it on VHS, so I had to dig out the tape player), I concede that the comparison was inaccurate. Dooku did indeed manage both Jedi, but it wasn't much of a saber fight. Then again, I could put in my favor that Dooku isn't solely reliant on his fighting ability to manipulate a fight, but can use the Force with a scope and skill on par with the greater Force users of the movie series (Yoda and Sidious are the only ones who consistently have higher showings) that it creates opportunities for him that Maul hasn't shown the capability or inclination to use himself. So if you were to match them up as combatants, Dooku is clearly superior, because he can and will create more opportunities for himself, and has shown to tangle with higher combatants with more ease, and can control the pacing of this fights by virtue of his skills.

Again, novelizations are interpretations of the movie, not more accurate than the movie itself. After watching the fight on loop for perhaps the better part of an hour as I type this up, I deliberately rewatched the last minute or two after the meditation sequence. Qui-Gon does initially show a burst of aggression which he did not have before, for all of perhaps twenty or thirty seconds if that. Then, as the camera flicks back to show Obi-Wan's red hued face and then back again, you see Maul has almost instantly reversed the tide of aggression and is peppering Qui-Gon with quick, short attacks which the Jedi master is sluggish to respond to, and then in a few seconds it's over.

I don't see Qui-Gon's "refresher" as being important to the battle, unless you're trying to rationalize something else. A large majority of the flaw I see with Maul's fighting occurrs before this scene, and afterwards if anything, he seems to do better once he knows he can fight the Jedi on his terms. Before this, he is unable to dictate the engagement, and this makes him appear weaker than you claim he is as a fighter.

So final words: if you intend to argue the battles of the movies with me, please try something other than novelization quoting and rampant assertions. I'm using the source material here, as you should as well. You wouldn't argue the events of KotOR by reading the strategy guide, nor would you argue the World Playoffs by reading an almanac. Don't argue movie fight scenes with filler from a novelization; it doesn't do anything for your point.

Lord Lucien

That was an interesting and enlightening read. Kudos to you, Janus.

Janus Marius

Thanks. It could use some touching up though. Rereading it, it could be condensed better.

Anon E. Mous

Qui-Gon completely PWNS AotC Anakin.

Many people have posted reasons why, including: Qui-Gon=Mace, Mace>AotC Anakin, so Qui-gon>Anakin(I apologize for ABC).

CadoAngelus

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6019/000obithrow9wk1wy.gif

PWND!

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/6369/anakinobiavatar6kw.gif

Pretty well defended against Anakin and Obi-Wan

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5575/anidooku.gif

LOL!

ares834

Originally posted by Anon E. Mous
Qui-Gon completely PWNS AotC Anakin.

Many people have posted reasons why, including: Qui-Gon=Mace, Mace>AotC Anakin, so Qui-gon>Anakin(I apologize for ABC).
WHile I agree Qui-Gon beats Anakin I disagree that it is pwnage. Heck Anakin would clearly put up a good fight.

Beyond that it is said that when Mace and Qui-Gon dueled it ended in a stalemate, that does not mean they are equal to each other. Heck they are sparing not dueling and that is a major diffrence.

ares834

Originally posted by Advent
Dooku wasn't injured prior to fighting, Maul was; his ankle had sustained damage in a battle with Tusken Raiders when he was on Tatooine.

Where was it said Maul was injured? In TPM novelization?

CadoAngelus

surely that might suggest that maul had a healing ability?

either that, and i'm being stupid, and he just grin and bare it...then again, if it is from the novelisation, perhaps parts of the story not mentioned in the films are non-canonical to the movie saga story?

Advent

"Even when Obi-Wan is removed from the equation . . . He's not overwhelming his opponents, period" - what?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I question the legitimacy of this "injury" if it's not in the script of TPM, I don't see it being legit. This would be like me throwing in some EU flubber that Dooku was suffering from arthritis and gout, and thus Anakin overcame him. I don't think making excuses outside of proper canon really does anything to show Maul is a comparable fighter as Dooku. If anything, it's kind of sad that he has to get a whole book written about him that's topped off with an excuse for his defeat. Almost like fanboys couldn't accept that he wasn't the best or something.

Nothing you described happening in the TPM duel actually occurred in the script, so then...nothing you say is legit either. But, everything I say is:

"The SITH LORD's moves are incredible. He is fighting the TWO JEDI at once outmaneuvering them at every turn.

The SITH LORD drives the JEDI out of the hanger and into the power generator area next door.

Three swords are crossed in an intense display of swordmanship. The JEDI and the SITH LORD fight their way across the narrow bridge of the Theed power generator. DARTH MAUL jumps onto the bridge above them. The JEDI follow, one in front of the SITH LORD and one behind. They continue their sword fight." (The Phantom Menace, script).

And EU is canon, too. We're discussing this on an EU sub-forum after all.

According to Leland Chee himself, they - in fact- are in some areas. For example, in RotS the duel between Mace and Sidious seems excruciatingly slow-paced for supposedly 'leet duelists when watching the movie. Of course, the novelization testifies that they're fighting at whirling speeds. Chee has stated that the novel is right there. Ergo, it's quite clearly inaccurate to claim the novelizations are nothing more than "interpretations".

For further clarifications, see above.

Qui-Gon dies within thirty seconds, Janus. Stop acting as if he somehow got tired out when there's no indication he did.

Your interpretation versus the novelizations versus mine - why is yours right but the other two are wrong? Again, there's nothing in your interpretation that is more logical, reasonable, or backed up than anything in mine. This is the problem with relying solely on the images shown in the movie. It's inane and abiding by canon, doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Some advice: Try knowing what you're talking about next time.

Advent

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That was an interesting and enlightening read. Kudos to you, Janus.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
This guy sure knows what he's talking about.

Originally posted by ares834
Where was it said Maul was injured? In TPM novelization?

No, it was the New Essential Guide to Characters, if I'm remembering correctly. Darthsith posted the exact quote ages ago with the exact source and page #...will look up if necessary. shifty

SIRABEN

I agree with the Advent.

chilled monkey

Advent, you ROCK!

Gideon

So you're telling us that if it's not shown in the movie, it's discarded?

Well, fine by me. I can use Lucas's statement that you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor to save Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar unnecessary embarrassment and I get to sink your arguments that Dooku was ordered to spare Anakin and that Yoda disarmed Sidious.

I'm expecting some entertaining remarks about retirement and how you've been authorized to use double standards. Make my day, Nai.

Advent

Originally posted by Borbarad
The point is, Advent, that Maul's form is stated to be an offensive one, so it would - of course - work best when used in an offensive fashion.

My point was, and is still is, Nai, that the versatility of saber combat defeats that entire argument. A fighter must adjust both their attacks and strategy to best suite the situation. In Maul's case, he was attacking offensively and leading the Jedi, which is confirmed by the novelization, script, and actual movie for those of us who have our spectacles equipped.

Except for the array of kicks, parries, and blocking attacks from two incoming source? The duo had the advantage of numbers and Maul was still outmaneuvering them to get those melee attacks in.

See, you too apparently don't understand that it is impossible to boot kick someone in the head if you haven't created an opening.

Strawman argument; waste of my time, but I'll entertain myself briefly. What's funny here is that I could actually argue he did have mental issues there (even though that wasn't my initial point whatsoever). In the novelization and other EU sources, it's confirmed that Maul absolutely hated the Jedi. He DREAMED about brutally killing Jedi in combat, that was one of his main sources of pleasure, FFS. He wants to demonstrate his SUPERIORITY to the Jedi because...he's crazy as Sith (^_^)!

It's said that Maul loved the fact he was fighting two Jedi. Of course, we saw how he was owning them at every turn; given the evidence, it'd be reasonable to state he wanted to prolong the fight - just like he prolonged Obi-Wan's death instead of capitalizing on the advantage instantly.

So, perhaps you're on to something there. Oh, and by the way, that version up there is supported by canon; Janus' isn't. *Note*: I'm not arguing the above paragraph, just pointing out self-pwnage.

And...? He gets temporarily smacked down - what are you trying to get at here? After Maul regains his composure by blocking Jinn's incoming attack from above while he was still on the ground, it returns back to Maul leading Jinn.

There's also something totally contradictory here: you point out that Maul doesn't have control because he gets backhanded by Qui-Gon AFTER Kenobi goes down. Now, did you ever notice that Dooku gets kicked square in the chest AFTER Kenobi goes down? Of course, when Anakin kicked him, Dooku didn't fall on his back. But then again, 10 feet /= 100 feet. Nice try though.

Stop making shit up, Nai. Maul takes one hit - that's it. The other attacks are courtesy of Maul.

According to the RotS novel, he ends up having to separate them because he acknowledges that they "just-might-beat him".

Too bad for Janus and yourself that they do show what's in the movie, as well as the script.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Doesn't look like a contradiction to me...

^ See above; it happened once; notice how Anakin boots Dooku in what amounts to the same situation.

drive, v.

To cause and guide the movement of (a vehicle, an animal, etc.).

Lesson of the day: some words have more than one definition.

View 0:45-0:47, please.

Originally posted by Advent
"'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations." (Star Wars Insider, Issue 1)

We're talking about the one-on-one duel with Qui-Gon after they are already all stuck in between the energy shields. Try to keep up with the discussion, please.

ZOMG, Maul is even more awesome?

Absolutely, you should. PM me the full passages, then post the lines that support whatever point you were going to make here.

Considering he killed Qui-Gon in thirty seconds flat with several disadvantageous factors, yes.

Anoon Bondara - who was stated to be the greatest duelist in the entire order (including Mace and Yoda) - was outmatched when he first saw Darth Maul. You really think that the script, novelization, actual movie, and myself are wrong - despite three out of four of the sources being canon? Does that really make sense to anybody?

Threads get derailed all the time; it's nothing new. big grin

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
So you're telling us that if it's not shown in the movie, it's discarded?

Oh look. King Gideon came to visit his subject. Bow down. Unfortunatelly, the King is incapable of reading lately, so I have to get some things straight:

1) "Everything not G-Canon can be questioned"
2) "Everything not G-Canon has to be questioned"
3) "Everything not G-Canon can be ignored"

Do you see any difference between those three statments, Gideon? I may give you a hint. My idea is expressed via statement (1). I can understand that, in case of a severe missunderstanding, one might think my idea was (2). But, with all due respect - how in the blue hell did you come up with the idea that I think everything not shown in the movies is automatically discarded (3)?

Either you're simply an ignorant who doesn't care about reading what he wants to argue, or you are a troll that is just searching for trouble. The only alternative would be that you don't have enough grey cells to see the difference between the three statements up there. So? What is it? Ignorant, troll or idiot? Thinking about it, I don't want to waste my freetime with any of the three.

Wow. Ignoratio elenchi happens to be a wide spread desease. So based on the premise that all things not G-Canon shall be ignored you conclude that you can argue like that? Nice, pal. I think I just heard a big fat red herring splashing on the water in the fishbowl of Gideon's dream-world. Is that possible?

I'm expecting some entertaining explanation for your intellectual blackout. After this, you can show me the "double standards". I may give you a hint here: Since my premise was "Everything not being G-Canon can be questioned", I can only commit a double standard by stating that a statement not being G-Canon can not be questioned. Have fun searching.

Gideon

Fantastic, so you have a reason to question the skills of Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto?

By all means, let's see it.

CadoAngelus

well they were all fart-arsing about when they went to see palpatine. all looking at windu thinking what to do next.

they got wasted in seconds, i think thats a valid reason to question their abilities, or at least question GLs thoughts on why they were so useless in that fight...

Nephthys

THANK YOU

Gideon

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
well they were all fart-arsing about when they went to see palpatine.

"Fart-arsing"? lol.

If by "fart-arsing" you mean withdrawing their weapons, igniting them, and assuming combat stance in tandem with their leader.

Where?

And even if that were the case, it's not surprising. None of them have actually fought a Sith Lord before and Mace Windu is a senior member of the council, outranking everyone whose name isn't Yoda.

Your point?

They were fighting someone who could take on Yoda; what did you expect?

It's not, given the power, skills, and nature of their opponent.

Yeah, that's already happened. In a direct response to "Why did Mace bring the B-Team," George Lucas issued the following statement:

Not because everyone else sucks, but because he's just that good. You'll notice that Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Count Dooku aren't mentioned either; it's not because they suck, but they're not good enough to take on Palpatine.

Nai still cries himself to sleep on that one, so don't worry.

You're welcome.

ares834

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm expecting some entertaining explanation for your intellectual blackout. After this, you can show me the "double standards". I may give you a hint here: Since my premise was "Everything not being G-Canon can be questioned", I can only commit a double standard by stating that a statement not being G-Canon can not be questioned. Have fun searching.
Please leave the EU forum if your going to question everything that isn't G Canon. Thank you.

CadoAngelus

by 'fart-arsing' i meant...they were taking on a ruthless sith who they knew had been influencing everything since ep1, and they walk in all sanctimonious saying "by order of the republic and galactic senate, you're under arrest" like palpatine was gonna get up and say, "chain me boys"...my left nut is he...

I know that palpatine was an "uber" opponent...but seriously

worst lineup ever. if anyone should have gone to take palpatine on, it should have been windu, yoda, and kenobi. i know they were all doing their own things at the time but still...

yoda was a bit big headed trying to take palpatine on his own if not even 4 council members could cut him down...

if it wasn't for anakins whiny little ass the original trilogy wouldn't exist...windu would've taken palpatine in a heart beat after he parted him from his saber...

ares834

The movie overwrites all of the other sources. I recomend rewatchong the fight scene. Maul is clearly on the defnsive for most of the fight. If you want proof than watch how his fighting style changers aruptly when battling in the shields. Finally, he clearly had no clue about the shields as he prods one with his saber.

He does stuff but it is not overly offensive. Maul never puts the jedi on the defense untill the end of the duel.

If he was owning the jedi he would try to seperate them as you claim nor would he have recived the fist to his face or had his saber chopped in half. Clearly, Maul was never "owning" them.

Well let's discounte the fact he is fighting two enemies that clarlysurpase those that Maul fought and that he managed to land his fall.

Then clearly the fights not "pwnage" as you make it out to be.

But he does it by showing his superiority in the force not by retreating...

Do you have proof that Maul was laeding them?

But if Maul is so good why didn't he pwn Qui-gon there...

Yes Qui-Gon had many disadvantages including using Ataru in a small space.

Proof? Regardless Yoda and Mace could best him as their is more to a duel then simply lightsaber battling.

SIDIOUS 66

You do know Palpatine "being weak" was just a put on, right? If Palpatine would have continued with his lightning assault, Windu would have been overpowered, because clearly Windu was not putting on; he was really struggling with it.

Do you think that if Anakin was not there, Palpatine would have sit there and let Mace chop his head off?

ares834

Not this argument again... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Janus Marius

You have to be mentally challenged to stand there holding your sword while someone cries out, flips across a good six to ten feet of space, and then charges up the stairs to pull his arms back, and then extend them forward to stab through your prepared defenses. Oh, and then be the second guy to get killed in the same way. Sure, the first guy looked stupid, but the second guy must be barely sentient.

I didn't realize the lack of Sith Lord participation meant that all senior Jedi not in the first twenty names in the ending credits can't defend themselves against an attack so telegraphed it got its own teaser trailer. At this point, the only thing Sidious didn't do was explain his actions as he was doing them. I've never fought a bear before. You wouldn't catch me just standing there while one charged up to me.

So apparently if you're not Mace or Yoda, you can't defend against Sidious at all? Jeez, I'm glad Obi-wan or Anakin didn't challenge him. Or half of the Jedi temple. They would have been slain!

But Sidious' Psycho Crusher followed by the Stair Master, and then the Pig Sticker combo didn't really display any superior power, skill, or "nature" of the attacker. It just looked incredibly stupid and weak on behalf of the Jedi, that their enemy did everything short of handing them a note saying "I'm gonna shank you" and they died anyways.

I could see if he overwhelmed an incredibly complex or well-planned defense on their part, or he just WTFpwned them with Force powers or gout, but he just... ran at them and stabbed them.

So I guess absolute statements are absolute, context be damned. So with this kind of logic, a Death Star could never take on Palpatine, because it's not Mace or Yoda. The entire Galactic Empire could never take him on, nor could the Jedi Temple, or the Vong or Luke Skywalker and every Sith Lord ever made...

Simply because they were not included in this vague statement.

He didn't include Vader either, and yet I remember him bench pressing Sidious into a reactor shaft. Apparently, only a black man and a green midget can take him on, but gravity overcomes him with the assistance of a mangled cyborg.

I thank you for your refreshing view on absolute statements which lack substantiation and context. I'm sure Superman and Goku couldn't defeat Sidious either... because GL didn't list them in his one statement.

WO Polaski

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Sidious' Psycho Crusher

No0o0o0o...crylaugh

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by ares834
Not this argument again... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Yes child, i gotta back Sidious up to the fullest.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Janus Marius
You have to be mentally challenged to stand there holding your sword while someone cries out, flips across a good six to ten feet of space, and then charges up the stairs to pull his arms back, and then extend them forward to stab through your prepared defenses. Oh, and then be the second guy to get killed in the same way. Sure, the first guy looked stupid, but the second guy must be barely sentient.

I didn't realize the lack of Sith Lord participation meant that all senior Jedi not in the first twenty names in the ending credits can't defend themselves against an attack so telegraphed it got its own teaser trailer. At this point, the only thing Sidious didn't do was explain his actions as he was doing them. I've never fought a bear before. You wouldn't catch me just standing there while one charged up to me.

So apparently if you're not Mace or Yoda, you can't defend against Sidious at all? Jeez, I'm glad Obi-wan or Anakin didn't challenge him. Or half of the Jedi temple. They would have been slain!

But Sidious' Psycho Crusher followed by the Stair Master, and then the Pig Sticker combo didn't really display any superior power, skill, or "nature" of the attacker. It just looked incredibly stupid and weak on behalf of the Jedi, that their enemy did everything short of handing them a note saying "I'm gonna shank you" and they died anyways.

I could see if he overwhelmed an incredibly complex or well-planned defense on their part, or he just WTFpwned them with Force powers or gout, but he just... ran at them and stabbed them.

So I guess absolute statements are absolute, context be damned. So with this kind of logic, a Death Star could never take on Palpatine, because it's not Mace or Yoda. The entire Galactic Empire could never take him on, nor could the Jedi Temple, or the Vong or Luke Skywalker and every Sith Lord ever made...

Simply because they were not included in this vague statement.

He didn't include Vader either, and yet I remember him bench pressing Sidious into a reactor shaft. Apparently, only a black man and a green midget can take him on, but gravity overcomes him with the assistance of a mangled cyborg.

I thank you for your refreshing view on absolute statements which lack substantiation and context. I'm sure Superman and Goku couldn't defeat Sidious either... because GL didn't list them in his one statement.

Are you serious? lol

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Janus Marius
You have to be mentally challenged to stand there holding your sword while someone cries out, flips across a good six to ten feet of space, and then charges up the stairs to pull his arms back, and then extend them forward to stab through your prepared defenses. Oh, and then be the second guy to get killed in the same way. Sure, the first guy looked stupid, but the second guy must be barely sentient.

Or conversely, the guy might actually be quick enough to stab under your guard and kill you. Are you seriously going to tell us GL's intent in the scene was that Jedi Council Members are idiots as opposed to establishing the Emperor as a threat?

If a bear is charging you head on, then you're likely a dead man regardless. Not a very good analogy.

This is a poor argument. Anakin and Obi-wan would've been taken apart by Palpatine- Yoda outright tells Obi-wan he'll never be able to face Palpatine.
And half the Jedi Temple...yeah, who is he, Marka Ragnos? It's not like GL was referring to individuals there.
The implication is, if you aren't Mace or Yoda in ROTS, you can't compete. That means if Palpatine goes to kill you in Revenge of the Sith and your name is not Mace or Yoda, then you are more likely than not going to die very fast

As opposed to EVERY SINGLE FIGHT in this entire series telegraphing every single attack and leaving gaping openings that would get any fighter butchered in a real duel? It seems odd to extend standards to this one fight when every single one is full of issues. By contrast, how do you explain Palpatine moving at much, much superior speeds when he fights Yoda?

He jumped, landed, stabbed up as he was coming out of it and quickly ran Agen through, then spun and cut down Saesee before Saesee could strike at him.
Are you also going to argue Mace Windu sucks? Because he and Kit are just hanging back as Palpatine kills their comrades?

Oh, dear lord, Janus, this is faulty and you know it. Lucas is addressing individuals there. He is saying 'Mace or Yoda.' The leeway elsewhere would be an unburnt Anakin and Luke, by virtue of being able to become what his father couldn't. Absolute statements from Lucas are sure as hell absolute. At what point do you get Lucas going from just discussing individuals who can compete with the main villain to equating this relatively open and shut statement with something it was never intended to meat to discredit it?

I find it hard to see how this statement is vague. At all.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a sudden sneak attack on a completely distracted opponent to be 'competing,' unless you want to argue Palpatine 'competed' with Plagueis when he killed him in his sleep, combat-wise, or every Sith Lord who clandestinely murdered people who would kick their asses in combat were competing martially with them as well.
Know why he didn't include Vader there? Because in a straight up fight, Palpatine would butcher Vader as easily as he did Agen and Saesee, that's why.

Janus, seriously, you need to stop taking these statements to absurd levels, because it makes your argument borderline absurd and kills the good points therein. I wasn't aware 'George Lucas' was a clever front for Jerry Siegel and Akira Toriyama who are also the same person.Suffice to say We are discussing in the context of Star Wars and Star Wars alone . Lucas has no authority on fictional worlds he has nothing to do with.

Advent

Originally posted by ares834
The movie overwrites all of the other sources. I recomend rewatchong the fight scene. Maul is clearly on the defnsive for most of the fight. If you want proof than watch how his fighting style changers aruptly when battling in the shields. Finally, he clearly had no clue about the shields as he prods one with his saber.

Arguments that have already been defeated are still defeated - repeating them doesn't make them any more valid.

How the hell does "testing" the energy walls mean a damn thing? What you're saying is the equivalent of saying an engineer doesn't know what his invention will do because he tests it out to make sure it works as planned. No one said Maul personally inspected the walls prior. Indeed, did you recall how before the fight he's being briefed by the Nemodians, who knew the layout of the palace extensively?

You're blind as a bat. From what I saw, he was leading the Jedi. Moving backwards is not the same thing as being on the defensive; especially if you're the one attacking. Now the difference between my vision and yours is that mine is supported by the novel and script, which are both canonical.

He did seperate them...*sigh*

Which defeats the logic that Dooku was "owning" Obi-Wan and Anakin since Anakin did kick Dooku square in the chest...which happens to be a staple point for the person my arguments were against.

And one melee attack /= a dozen.

Irrelevant given that it happened during the one-on-one portion of the duel. As noted if you would have read my post, Maul was caught off guard by Kenobi's burst of rage; Kenobi capitalized temporarily, but quickly lost the advantage once Maul regained his composure.

rolleyes1

He managed to land it because it was only 10 ft., FFS. Maul's fall was more like 100. Oh and did you miss the part immediately after where Jinn drops down and attacks from the superior position yet Maul blocks it while still on his back?

rolleyes1

Let's ignore how he was moving back until he takes Kenobi out, shall we. It's always a good idea to overlook crucial, glaring evidence directly from the movie. See, the thing is: Dooku was leading them...just like Maul was. Your response here is meaningless anyways and fails to address my point.

Originally posted by Advent
"Their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.

But on this day, he had met his match. The Sith Lord he battled with Obi - Wan was more than his equal in weapons training, and he had the advantage of being younger and stronger.

His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defense.

So they challenged the Sith Lord quickly, and just as quickly discovered that their best efforts were not good enough

They should have won this battle long ago. Against any other opponent, they would have. But the Sith Lord was battle trained and seasoned well beyond anyone they had ever encountered before. He had matched them blow for blow, and they weren't any closer to winning this fight now than they had been in the beginning." (The Phantom Menace, Ch. 23)

This guy sure knows what he's talking about.
Originally posted by Advent
Nothing you described happening in the TPM duel actually occurred in the script, so then...nothing you say is legit either. But, everything I say is:

"The SITH LORD's moves are incredible. He is fighting the TWO JEDI at once outmaneuvering them at every turn.

The SITH LORD drives the JEDI out of the hanger and into the power generator area next door.

Three swords are crossed in an intense display of swordmanship. The JEDI and the SITH LORD fight their way across the narrow bridge of the Theed power generator. DARTH MAUL jumps onto the bridge above them. The JEDI follow, one in front of the SITH LORD and one behind. They continue their sword fight." (The Phantom Menace, script).

^ Do you even read the posts before you respond?

Firstly, no, he did not have any disadvantages except for the fact he was fighting a more skilled opponent. Secondly, no, Ataru doesn't need space to be effective, that's a myth and there's no proof it hindered Qui-Gon's performance anymore than the gigantic double-bladed lightsaber would have hindered Maul's.

Irrelevant conclusion, much?

CadoAngelus

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Or conversely, the guy might actually be quick enough to stab under your guard and kill you. Are you seriously going to tell us GL's intent in the scene was that Jedi Council Members are idiots as opposed to establishing the Emperor as a threat?

If a bear is charging you head on, then you're likely a dead man regardless. Not a very good analogy.

This is a poor argument. Anakin and Obi-wan would've been taken apart by Palpatine- Yoda outright tells Obi-wan he'll never be able to face Palpatine.
And half the Jedi Temple...yeah, who is he, Marka Ragnos? It's not like GL was referring to individuals there.
The implication is, if you aren't Mace or Yoda in ROTS, you can't compete. That means if Palpatine goes to kill you in Revenge of the Sith and your name is not Mace or Yoda, then you are more likely than not going to die very fast

As opposed to EVERY SINGLE FIGHT in this entire series telegraphing every single attack and leaving gaping openings that would get any fighter butchered in a real duel? It seems odd to extend standards to this one fight when every single one is full of issues. By contrast, how do you explain Palpatine moving at much, much superior speeds when he fights Yoda?

He jumped, landed, stabbed up as he was coming out of it and quickly ran Agen through, then spun and cut down Saesee before Saesee could strike at him.
Are you also going to argue Mace Windu sucks? Because he and Kit are just hanging back as Palpatine kills their comrades?

Oh, dear lord, Janus, this is faulty and you know it. Lucas is addressing individuals there. He is saying 'Mace or Yoda.' The leeway elsewhere would be an unburnt Anakin and Luke, by virtue of being able to become what his father couldn't. Absolute statements from Lucas are sure as hell absolute. At what point do you get Lucas going from just discussing individuals who can compete with the main villain to equating this relatively open and shut statement with something it was never intended to meat to discredit it?

I find it hard to see how this statement is vague. At all.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a sudden sneak attack on a completely distracted opponent to be 'competing,' unless you want to argue Palpatine 'competed' with Plagueis when he killed him in his sleep, combat-wise, or every Sith Lord who clandestinely murdered people who would kick their asses in combat were competing martially with them as well.
Know why he didn't include Vader there? Because in a straight up fight, Palpatine would butcher Vader as easily as he did Agen and Saesee, that's why.

Janus, seriously, you need to stop taking these statements to absurd levels, because it makes your argument borderline absurd and kills the good points therein. I wasn't aware 'George Lucas' was a clever front for Jerry Siegel and Akira Toriyama who are also the same person.Suffice to say We are discussing in the context of Star Wars and Star Wars alone . Lucas has no authority on fictional worlds he has nothing to do with.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/josh2222/palpatine.gif
(bit small and not great quality, but all i could find)

Right, so, i found this to show everyone the fight as opposed to everyone going on their memory bias.

They wonder in, and ask Palpatine to come with them. Palpy gets up and says they're commiting treason. He ignites his saber, screams and about 4 seconds later lunges at them.

Giving the jedi plenty of time to parry and/or strike (if they're feeling brave)...but no! they decide to feel the warmth of the blade up their insides. Look at the lack of defence against him they have.

Kolar (fair he's the first to go so has less warning than everyone else) got shived, then Palpy does a quick side swipe toward Kiin who's in LaLaLand doing god knows what with his guard down. Perhaps he's shocked at seeing a fellow council member being taken so easily...but seriously, anyone else could have moved their saber 3 inchs to block a swipe like that.

Now onto Kit, who i'm not so annoyed with since he puts up a fight. He does get taken out by some cunning tactic of Palpy's, whereby he seems to be focusing on Windu while doing a pirouette on the spot and then strikes out at Kit.

Then the legendary battle between Windu and Palpy happens...

ares834

But they are completely valid...

Do you have proof the Nemodians told him about the shields? Didn't think so.

Give me the dang quote that he is leading them back? And not one saying the jedi are following...

My fault I meant wouldn't need to separate them.

I never said Dooku was owning Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Regardless if he could own Obi-Wan and Qui-gon this never should have happened.

Good argument there.

Which is even more amazing. Dooku was able to right himself in a fall that was only ten feet while Maul couldn't Even do it in a 100 feet. Thanks for the support. AS for the second part that is irrelevant.

Once again great reply.

Simply that they follow doesn't mean he is leading them. ANd he only drives them out of the hangar, nothing more.

I have a strange mental phenomenon where I only like to read coherent posts.

Yet there is no proof that the Double-bladed lightsaber would have hindered Darth Maul either. Lets also forget that common sense limits Ataru's effectiveness. I recall that Fightsaber says Ataru had problems with prolonged conflict and confined spaces.

Janus Marius

Firstly, you need to stop bolding your entire argument. It makes it painful to read. I'm not sure if that's a tag malfunction, but I have to copy this thing into Word just so I can read it.

Secondly, if you're arguing a stance that Sidious was "so quick he stabbed under someone's guard", you have to further evaluate the speed of the guard penetrated. If someone is shanked in miliseconds in close range and has no defense, then it would be sufficient to say their defenses were overcome by superior speed. However, if they are overcome by an attack which is straightforward and coming from across the room proceeded by visible signs of aggression and signs of oh... about to get stabbed, and no defensive measures are taken beyond the initial combat stances which was already in place before the attack began, then it is silly to consider this attributive to Sidious' superiority instead of the Jedi's stupidity.

To use a more appropriate analogy, I've never fought a jeet kun do practitioner before. If I let one run across the room and kick me in the face without even trying to move to react, can I be argued to be one of the premier fighters of my group and generation? That is, unless I was mentally retarded and the best face puncher on the short bus.

The whole point is reaction is key. I might get away from a bear under certain circumstances, but if I don't react at all, I'm sealing my fate. To replace the bear with a knife fighter would only make the point clearer.

I'm simply using the absolute argument you've provided. You said that only "Mace and Yoda" can compete with the Emperor, to the exclusion of all else. But when I make further implications using that statement as fact, suddenly there's limitations? So is it absolute or is it not? If it is not, then it stands to reason there's some speculation that comes into play. Obviously, even in the movies, an entire Jedi army could defeat Sidious. So could a Death Star, or a low flying TIE fighter. There's a ton of things which can "take" the Emperor. The context of this statement has yet to be substantiated, but since that's an assertion on your part, I'm sure you'll do your best to prove up.

You're missing the whole point though - while SW fighting does not conform to real world martial arts in anything other than stylistic references, we still have to apply common sense and objective reasoning when assessing these fights. We can't say "SW fights aren't realistic, therefore logic doesn't apply. Sidious struck first, therefore he's quicker and superior". This kind of muddled thinking doesn't benefit anyone. If a veteran soldier stands out in a field and gets shot because he simply refuses to get down, can anyone argue that the sniper is the better gunfighter? I realize some suspense of disbelief is required, but that's stretching it. If Luke Skywalker did nothing while Vader kicked him in the balls, would we say Vader is a better fighter?

I hope you see the points I'm driving home.

Mace Windu is the only person who reacted to the onslaught. He specifically steps back and into a defensive posture, closer to the hallway. The other Jedi did nothing, although Kit eventually attempted to manage a defense and was killed anyways.

So again, where are you getting that Sidious is a superior fighter because his opponents are completely brain dead?

But you were using the statement as an absolute (And so was Escape, to a disgusting degree even), when I put forth flaws in that approach, you pull back and go "Oh, silly, absolute GL statements only apply for individuals". Do they? Does this statement consider all scenarios we discuss here today? Does it consider each character in the series deeply and their merits, or does it just relate to the only people who challenged Sidious in RotS? Context would be helpful if you actually wanted to prove your point instead of mindlessly arguing it.

I'm thinking of a quote from a famous person about the unexamined life right now...

Context. What's the context then? Does this absolute statement warp to fit your agenda, or can you provide surrounding dialogue from GL which indicates what exactly this is referring to? Escape's statement implies that it's referring to the virtually small-time Jedi masters who accompanied Mace Windu, and not any other major characters in the film, or considering other situations.

http://i39.tinypic.com/9awhvr.jpg

Good job, Captain. I'm simply illustrating that an absolute statement by itself is not the end-all of a debate. You need to be able to substantiate its validity in this argument, or it has no place here. Simply slinging it out and expecting people to be wowed is the philosophical equivalent of making fire with a lighter and hoping to impress the natives. Sooner or later one of them is going to figure out it's all bullshit.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Firstly, you need to stop bolding your entire argument. It makes it painful to read. I'm not sure if that's a tag malfunction, but I have to copy this thing into Word just so I can read it.

Secondly, if you're arguing a stance that Sidious was "so quick he stabbed under someone's guard", you have to further evaluate the speed of the guard penetrated. If someone is shanked in miliseconds in close range and has no defense, then it would be sufficient to say their defenses were overcome by superior speed. However, if they are overcome by an attack which is straightforward and coming from across the room proceeded by visible signs of aggression and signs of oh... about to get stabbed, and no defensive measures are taken beyond the initial combat stances which was already in place before the attack began, then it is silly to consider this attributive to Sidious' superiority instead of the Jedi's stupidity.
Or, conversely, you could just go the logical route: Lucas meant this scene to show how good the Emperor is, that he killed one of the Jedi on the council before he could even react. You have this odd notion that being unable to react to someone means you suck as opposed to taking the route the other guy just might be good.
Tell me, Janus, why do the rest of Agen's accolades get written away with this?

It doesn't matter if you let them or not. For most people? Trying to stop said practioner isn't going to work and your face'll be smashed in before you know it

And unless you're one of the, what, 2 percent who'd be capable of fighting a bear off with a knife, you'd likely die before you can react.
Strangely, this ties into what Lucas was saying: if Palpatine's coming at you and you aren't Mace or Yoda, you will die.

'All else?' Everyone else would be a more accurate term. Yes, it's accurate. But Lucas is referring to individuals in combat terms there. You are trying to somehow twist this to invalidate it.
Janus, when your personal interpretation isn't matching anything supported by canon and is really to the edge of saying "George Lucas is wrong," it's time to reconsider.
The 'context' has yet to be substantiated Seriously, how much simpler can it be? Lucas says you need to be Mace or Yoda and if Anakin were unburnt, he would've eventually been able to take Palpatine.
This isn't meaning to throw in "But what about the Death Star! What about the ENTIRE GALACTIC ARMY?!"
He's talking about individual fighters. You should be able to realize that this is very, very obvious.

Gets 'shot down?' For starters, this analogy hurts just a little because we're talking about straight up martial fighting. Palpatine leaps at Agen and kills him, end of story. Agen can't defend himself or respond in time. Why? Lucas is asked flat out why they died so quick. His response was simply: "You need to be Mace orYyoda to compete with the Emperor."
Why is taking to its its logical conclusion so difficult? The implication is clear, Janus. They're not good enough to fight with Palpatine. There are only two Jedi who are

What I see is you taking a very clear, simple statement and wringing the hell of it until you get what you want from it.

Ok. So, let's establish something: Mace is good. WHY is he letting his comrades die if they suck so much? Does he hate them? Feel the Order is better off without them?
If they suck so much and Palpatine is apparently nothing special, then why is Mace Windu unable to react in time?

Well, for starters, they're not. Lucas indicates Palpatine is just that good because nobody but two people can compete with him. That includes Dooku, Grievous, Maul, Anakin at that point and Obi-wan.
You've yet to account for Mace's temporary brain damage. I'll assumed you aren't going to take the route Mace is an embarrassment

Lightsnake

Did I say GL statements only to individuals? No, it's merely that this one does. He's discussing people who can fight Palpatine. At no point do combinations come into play, or inanimate objects, or diseases, or falling rocks. Specifically, fighters who can compete with the Emperor.
What part of this is difficult to accept?
Take the rest however you like, apply it to only as of the prequels, or ROTS in context, but it makes this in regards to the trio with Mace rather hard to argue

The context is he's discussing specific people who can fight Palpatine. This absolute statement can apply however else you like, but quit taking away from its original point in the argument- Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin aren't Mace or Yoda, they can't fight Palpatine. It doesn't mean they suck.
And I'm the one 'warping it?' You're the one having a merry time twisting it so you can attack it.
And considering Lucas seemed just dandy with calling Agen one of the finest duelists in history, according to the section he specifically line-edited in the ROTS novel and had no problems leaving references to them as celebrated swordsmen, then we can assume the end result: Palpatine is just that good. So are Mace and Yoda.
How about we just take the statement how it stands now? Just apply it to the prequels. Or people in ROTS, but the end result is the same: It doesn't mean these Jedi suck
All other canon is against you here, you have your interpretation and only your interpretation, it's getting absurd how you will just completely ignore or discount ANY evidence raised against you.

Perfect example of why I act like you accused me of in the last topic.

And this is a perfect example of your worst behaviors in debates. If you and only you, don't like the quote, you'll find some way it couldn't mean what it clearly does and thus, it can't work in the debate. Sorry, through playing that game. The quote is right there and no amount of willful ignorance will change it. Your attempts to downplay what you don't like have gotten remarkably obvious and in all seriousness, is rather beneath you. 'Substantiate its validity?' Lucas was specifically refuting how they sucked when asked, stating that only Mace or Yoda could be able to fight Palpatine. Why do you need to change this into something it's not to attack its validity for the sole purpose of it being damaging to the arguments you're trying to make?

Gideon

I appreciate that objective analysis. The problem? You aren't an expert on either combat or fighting Sith Lords, so I have a particularly difficult time assuming that your opinion is the gospel on these matters. You're trying to twist assessment of the circumstances to support your agenda. Personally, I find it laughable that a creature who has existed and commanded the Force for nine centuries, known for his great sage wisdom, would be so utterly outmaneuvered and manipulated for the last three decades of his life by one man. Yet it happened. I also find it hard to believe that that same creature, with his reputation for combat prowess and wisdom, would stand and banter with the same Sith Lord who murdered four of his peers, watch his enemy slowly raise his hands (knowing full well that Sith are capable of Force lightning) and electrocute him into the nearest wall. It happened. The fact that you find something to be inept doesn't mean that it is so within the confines of canon. By your standards, Yoda is officially retarded.

The underlying point? Your interpretation is not canon. The facts and events of the Star Wars universe are not subject to your review, Janus.

Given that we must assume that what has happened within the films is there for a reason, another perspective can be taken: Palpatine was simply far too fast and too skilled for three seasoned Jedi Masters. It fits with everything that we know about them and him; his connection to the Force was simply too great to contend with.

Yes, and I've never fought a Sith Lord before, but something tells me if I knew that he managed to defeat four highly accomplished combatants in one outing and is capable of hurling energy from his hands, chances are that I wouldn't stand immobilized as he raised his hands at me. Yet a Jedi Master of nine centuries did so and it nearly cost him greatly. The fact that characters, even great, powerful, and smart ones make mistakes -- ocassionally fatal ones -- does not necessarily rescind their accolades or make them inept or talentless.

That's about right, yes.

It would have been a particularly short movie for our intrepid heroes if they had done so.

"Half of the Jedi Temple" isn't an individual combatant. Individually, none of them can defeat Palpatine.

The context is there; Lucas was asked "why did Mace bring the B-Team?" to which Lucas responded:

Context? Who could take Palpatine on with any hope for success. The answer? Mace or Yoda.

Are any of them mentioned as individual combatants as featured within the prequel trilogy (specifically the movie Revenge of the Sith)? No.

Ah, vague, yes. Missed that one.

Vague, unsubstantiated, and taken out of context. Must you try to lie to make your point? One more time, Janus, and we'll stop. wink

When Vader takes on Sidious and defeats him in single combat, let me know and I'll concede. But since he doesn't... well...

Is gravity an individual combatant? No. Does the mangled cyborg defeat him in combat? No.

When Goku or Superman are featured as individual combatants within the confines of Star Wars, specifically Revenge of the Sith... we'll talk. Until then, save your deceit for someone who is swayed or converted by it.

Advent

Originally posted by ares834

Please, when you manage to come up with a reply that: a) hasn't been addressed multiple times already, b) makes sense, c) is backed up by canon and -at the very least- logic, feel free to try again. Your posts are a waste of my time. In the mean time, continue demonstrating how you can't read worth a damn.

ares834

Originally posted by Advent
Please, when you manage to come up with a reply that: a) hasn't been addressed multiple times already, b) makes sense, c) is backed up by canon and -at the very least- logic, feel free to try again. Your posts are a waste of my time. In the mean time, continue demonstrating how you can't read worth a damn.
I bow to your supreme skills of logic and argumentative nature. Really it is a marvel that one can live, let alone attempt to communicate, with their head stuck so high up their gluteus maximus.

Red Nemesis

That was clever.

DUOLC OLLOPA

Originally posted by WO Polaski
No0o0o0o...crylaugh

For the record, if anyone was missing Blaxican, ^ that would be him.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The quote is right there and no amount of willful ignorance will change it. Your attempts to downplay what you don't like have gotten remarkably obvious and in all seriousness, is rather beneath you. 'Substantiate its validity?' Lucas was specifically refuting how they sucked when asked, stating that only Mace or Yoda could be able to fight Palpatine. Why do you need to change this into something it's not to attack its validity for the sole purpose of it being damaging to the arguments you're trying to make?

Wow, Lightsnake. Just wow.
Yes. The quote is right there, and no amount of willful ignorance and blatant Sidious fanboyism will change it.

Let's just, for a second, stick to the G-Canon here. Firstly: The movie simply depicts that the three Jedi get cut down in seconds. Two of them don't show any reaction before getting killed and Fisto is also finally overwhelmed. This is what the movie shows and I don't want to interprete that - simply keep that in mind.

Now, given that scene, Lucas is asked, why Mace was taking the B-Team with him to confront the Emperor. Lucas answers "You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."

One might observe the following things here: Lucas does not contradict the idea that those Jedi are the "B-Team" with that quote. He even makes them the B-Team himself, by telling us, who the "A-Team" would be: Mace, Yoda, Anakin if he hadn't been injured on Mustafar. Thus he puts Tiin, Kolar and Fisto in a league below the people that he views as the "elite" of lightsaber combat in the SW universe. Or to make it clear: Tiin, Kolar and Fisto do belong to the mass of people not being the best in the SW universe.

Now comes the tiny bit where you simply ignore the context: You attempt to apply that quote, apparently, to any individiual that pops up in the movie(s) or go even further and apply it to the entirety of the SW universe (past, present, future).

Let me make the context clear: Lucas is just referring to that one fight in RotS (that is clear, given the question he answers), and he's obviously only referring to combatants Mace could have brought instead of Kolar, Tiin and Fisto (in order to have a team that would have survived longer / defeated Sidious) or to others that could have competed with Sidious at that point in time. I wasn't aware that those two groups include dead people (Dooku for example), Sith Lords (that were already dead at that point in time too) or people that weren't even born yet (Luke). Obviously the choices are limited to Jedi that were still alive at that point in time (including Mace, Yoda and a not-injured Anakin). That's it.

And let me emphasize this point again: To Lucas, the "best" of the Jedi alive at that point in time, are the ones he listed. Then there is a nice gap, and then there follows the mass of other Jedi in the movies (which aren't able to compete with the best). So...to state that the Jedi, who accompanied Mace, belong to the "best" would actually mean, they are somewhere close to Mace or Yoda, which they aren't - according to Lucas own words. And the movie proves that they aren't (as) good (as Mace, Yoda, Sidious) as well.

So why should we simply ignore that gap in combat abilities, ignore Lucas own words on the issue and ignore what is shown in the movie, just to keep those three Jedi on the "finest swordsmen" pedestal? Because that makes Sidious look "more uber"? Appears kind of fanboyish to me.

CadoAngelus

Originally posted by Borbarad
Let's just, for a second, stick to the G-Canon here. Firstly: The movie simply depicts that the three Jedi get cut down in seconds. Two of them don't show any reaction before getting killed and Fisto is also finally overwhelmed. This is what the movie shows and I don't want to interprete that - simply keep that in mind.

The irrefutable truth...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/josh2222/palpatine.gif

Gideon

That was an unsurprisingly retarded conclusion. Prove how Lucas not thinking that Tiin, Kolar, or Fisto are on par with Mace or Yoda is somehow an indication that they are anything less than elite fighters.

I suppose one has to be equal to Eddie Van Halen, Steve Vai, or Jimi Hendrix to be among the greatest guitarists ever or one of particular skill. I suppose one has to be equal to Michael Jordan or Lebron James to be a highly skilled basketball player. I suppose one has to be equal to Adolf Hitler or Winston Churchill in order to be a great orator. I suppose one has to be the measure of William Shakespeare or J.R.R. Tolkein to be a skilled writer.

Please.

CadoAngelus

Originally posted by Gideon
That was an unsurprisingly retarded conclusion. Prove how Lucas not thinking that Tiin, Kolar, or Fisto are on par with Mace or Yoda is somehow an indication that they are anything less than elite.

I suppose one has to be equal to Eddie Van Halen, Steve Vai, or Jimi Hendrix to be among the greatest guitarists ever or one of particular skill. I suppose one has to be equal to Michael Jordan or Lebron James to be a highly skilled basketball player. I suppose one has to be equal to Adolf Hitler or Winston Churchill in order to be a great orator. I suppose one has to be the measure of William Shakespeare or J.R.R. Tolkein to be a skilled writer.

Please.

That's extremely blown out of proportion to the whole situation. And maybe even a little one sided...

Mace and Yoda are unarguably two of the greatest in the current order, and compared to them, Tiin, Kolar and Fisto blow chunks...but this doesn't mean that they aren't elite fighters.

The highest council members have seats because they are: the wisest; strongest; most force sensative; most saber skilled...basically, they are the best at what they do. And evidently, Tiin Kolar and Fisto are not the greatest saber fighters on the council.

Gideon

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
That's extremely blown out of proportion to the whole situation. And maybe even a little one sided...

I'm curious why you're quoting me when...

...You agree with me.

The greatest? No, that would clearly be Yoda and Mace.

Still looking for where we disagree.

CadoAngelus

ok, yes, i do agree with parts of your argument. but there are flaws, and before you think this a blind stab at you, hear me out.

Mace and Yoda are the two highest council members because they are wise/extremely force sensative/saber skilled/strong, therefore making them an amalgamation of all skills. Irrefutably making them the "top dogs".

Tiin, Kolar and Fisto are high ranking council members, BUT, they are not as skilled as Yoda and Mace as is evident by my post of the short fight scene. Tiin and Kolar in this particular situation show signs of being majorly brain-dead. Fisto shows some sign of life but is swiftly taken care of. Mace is the only of the team that holds his own longer than five seconds.

This, though it may seem otherwise to most, does not show Sidious' superior skill. This simply shows that Tiin and Kolar how a major lack of brain at that particular moment. Sidious gives them plenty of time to react, pulling back his saber to stab Kolar and then turning to Tiin before swipping...

Gideon

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
ok, yes, i do agree with parts of your argument.

You're damn right you do; you clearly recognize awesomeness.

Lies.

I'm with you.

Still with you. No one was contending that Tiin, Kolar, or Fisto were on par with either Yoda or Mace.

This, my friend, is where we reach a parting of the ways. Tiin and Kolar are the recipients of several accolades made by various canon sources for their swordsmanship. The fact that they failed to react quickly to save themselves is not a sign of neurological deficits or a detractor to their abilities.

But, let's say that I use your logic (and the logic subscribed to by Nai and Janus). Exhibit A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nZ624mrCE4

That is a link to the fight scene between Yoda and the Emperor in the Senate Rotunda. The critical timeframe is from 0:23 to 0:40.

After disabling the Royal Guardsmen, Yoda pauses to banter with the Emperor. Now, despite confirmation that he is a powerful Sith Lord and the master of both the late Count Dooku and the newly turned Darth Vader, Yoda seems surprisingly lax in his enemy's presence. Palpatine tells Yoda that "Now will experience the full power of the dark side."

Slowly raising his hands, he sends Force lightning at Yoda, who fails to react until the last possible second. His fledgling defense is overpowered, he's electrocuted and hurled into the far wall, to drop to the floor unconscious.

Not exactly a strategy befitting the great Master Yoda, who is the top dog. If we use your logic, he's a moron. In fact, to be quite fair, Yoda performs less admirably than Kit Fisto.

Indeed, because Mace is on par with Yoda.

Again, this is where we disagree. Tiin and Kolar do visibly react when Sidious leaps at them and lands; they just aren't quick enough to defend themselves. Sidious then proceeds to engage Fisto and Mace simultaneously before killing the former before the latter can stop him. That's a sign of great skill.

CadoAngelus

Originally posted by Gideon
After disabling the Royal Guardsmen, Yoda pauses to banter with the Emperor. Now, despite confirmation that he is a powerful Sith Lord and the master of both the late Count Dooku and the newly turned Darth Vader, Yoda seems surprisingly lax in his enemy's presence. Palpatine tells Yoda that "Now will experience the full power of the dark side."

Slowly raising his hands, he sends Force lightning at Yoda, who fails to react until the last possible second. His fledgling defense is overpowered, he's electrocuted and hurled into the far wall, to drop to the floor unconscious.

It's unquestionable that Yoda is too unprepared for the force lightning.

When Yoda hits the floor though he seems to open one eye, as if he had not planned the exact circumstances but had predicted that something like that would happen. And equally, in Sidious' laughing fit, Yoda has time to charge a powerful force push.

It does raise the question: does GL show a scene in real-time but mean peoples lack of reaction to mean that the opponant is fast or more skilled?

You, Gideon, given a situation can find very good and compelling facts to add...in this respect, i have to say you are putting up a very good argument.

Gideon

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
It's unquestionable that Yoda is too unprepared for the force lightning.

Correct.

But does a mistake against a powerful, cunning foe revoke the accolades one has received over the years? Yoda failed to react against his adversary and it nearly cost him dearly; Palpatine could have quite effortlessly killed him at that point, but chose not to do so out of arrogance.

Yet you're entering the realm of total speculation.

A bit more excusable, given that the Force push was relatively sudden, and Sidious recovered quite quickly.

That's where your argument, and Nai's, and Janus's all come up short.

Taken quite literally, Yoda is as incompetent as they come. Not only was he strung along like a child for decades, oblivious to the manipulations and schemes of one man, but he was nearly killed by that same man due to sheer stupidity; the so-called champion of the Jedi and Republic was shown in the movies to be rather inept. Palpatine was smarter and easily outwitted him and the rest of the Jedi and the Republic and everyone else; Yoda would spend two decades in a swamp ruminating on his total failure while his enemy sat in a plush throne on Coruscant as some sort of political demi-god.

Nai and Janus and you don't want to go down that road. They don't want to because both of them like Yoda and I'm using their argument to show that their logic concludes that Palpatine (a character neither of them like) is supreme either way. They inevitably cherrypick to suit their own agenda.

It's irretrievably wrong.

Thank you.

Borbarad

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
I have to say you are putting up a very good argument.

Woah...now I've always wanted to peak at one of Gideon's post to see that premiere happening. Then I saw what you had quoted, and noticed the same fanboyish bullshit again.

I. "Let's ignore the source"

That seems to be a nice tactic when tossing random quotes into a forum to proof how uber your favourite character is. But where does the idea come from that the trio accompaning Mace belonged to the "best swordsman" in the order? Oh right...

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

Right. The thought spawns from Obi-Wan Kenobi. Where I live, characters in literature aren't telling facts every time they open their mouth. So what they say is subject to falsification. In the realm of Gideon, everything that is written down in a book equals a fact. And yes, in fact Gideon wants to tell us that everything in the source holds the equal level of canon, because it's simply but in a C-/G-Canon source. That includes dialogue from the characters. Funny...

Using this logic, Obi-Wan Kenobi is "as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda", because Anakin said so in a G-Canon source (the AotC movie). Simply hilarious.

II. Ignoring the context

Another great thing to do, when you're trying to interprete literature. Let's have a look at the context of the quote given above.

"Why? Why matters not. There is no why. There is only a Lord of the Sith, and his apprentice. Two Sith." Yoda leaned close. "And two Jedi."
Obi-Wan nodded, but he still couldn't meet the gaze of the ancient
Master. "I'll take Palpatine."
"Strong enough to face Lord Sidious, you will never be. Die you will,
and painfully."
"Don't make me kill Anakin," he said. "He's like my brother, Master."
"The boy you trained, gone he is-twisted by the dark side. Consumed by Darth Vader. Out of this misery, you must put him. To visit our new Emperor, my job will be."
Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

Oh well. As it seems Obi-Wan is simply trying to convince Yoda that it's a bad idea to confront Sidious at all. Can it be that Kenobi exeggerated the abilities of the trio a little bit, because he hoped he could convince Yoda not to face Sidious with it? Especially given the fact that Kenobi in this situation seems to be desperate enough to throw his own life away ("I'll take Sidious" wink

just to avoid confrontation with Anakin?

If you don't want to accept the idea that Kenobi is exeggerating here, I'd really love to see where he had deep inside to the combat abilities of the trio, where he got the historic knowledge to put them on the "best swordsmen" ever produced by the order pedestal. And, of course, what they have done to belong there.

Aside of that you also would have to take a look on the rest of the source. A nice part of it would be the fight between those "best swordsman" and Sidious according to the novel:

"Resist? How could I possibly resist?" Still seated at the desk
Palpatine shook an empty fist helplessly, the perfect image of a tired, frightened old man. "This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you?"
He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin-you're the telepath.
What am I thinking right now?"
Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of
red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk.
Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor.
Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.
Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"
The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and
a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.
"It doesn't . . ." Agen Kolar swayed.
His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head.
". . . hurt . . ."

Yeah. Right. One might spot the obvious differences between novel and movie. Sidious doesn't take his time to stand up, ignite his lightsaber, come up with a monologue and then jump in front of them to perform an - still sloooooooow - stabbing movement to kill Kolar. In the novel he turns from "sitting old man" to "killer machine" in a split second, after irritating Tiin first. The Jedi see a helpless and unarmed old man sitting in front of them and are taken totally by surprise without a chance to react. Tiin is beheaded before he can even see what comes flying at him and Kolar recieves a lightsaber through the skull before Tiin's body has even dropped to the ground.

But, and this is the main difference: They are taken by surprise and nothing else. In the movie, this element is totally missing. When going by the novel, one could say that they were all belonging to the best of the order and Sidious tricked them (distraction / feigning weakness / fast attack without warning). But when looking at the movie, that simply doesn't fly any longer.

Yet the quote labelling them as some of the greatest assumes that the action happens like it does in the novel, because this was what Stover had to work with when writing it. That Lucas did - apparently - change the action later isn't his fault. But because of this change, the quote simply seems wrong, because of the giant gap in terms of lightsaber skill that Lucas presents to us in the movie and that clearly isn't present in the novel.

And we can't simply ignore that points, and just look at the quote and say "Yay! Teh canon!" when it's based on ideas overwritten by higher level canon.

III. Elite or not elite - that's the question

Let me first give a definition of "elite": People belonging to the elite are the choice or best of an art or persons belonging to the highest class of an art. For example: One could say that the "basketball elite" can be found almost only in the NBA.

The point here is the gap in skill between those that Lucas defines as "elite" (Yoda, Mace, Sidious) and those people that Kenobi labeled "best swordsman". We're not talking about some minor differences in terms of duelling skill here. We're not talking about swordsman that could endanger Sidious, when having their lucky day or something. We're talking about people that get butchered in a 3on1 situation - within seconds. And this while having backup from a guy that is Sidious superior in terms of lightsaber combat.

So how can one, after viewing this scene, still think about them being "some of the best the order ever produced"? Especially when the scene in the movie makes them look much worse than the same sequence does in the book. Getting killed in a surprise attack by somebody like Sidious could happen to the best - no problem with that idea. Standing there and not react to a Sith Lord that ignites his lightsaber, gives a monologue, jumps in your direction, pulls his blade back for a nice close up and then stabs you...that's an entire different thing that should not happen to "some of the best in the order".

Essentialy, the movie version and Lucas words do contradict the idea that the trio belongs into the "best swordsman" department, because Sidious, who is one of the best, was able to butcher them in a 3vs1 situation in a "fair" fight. This is not what the novel assumes. The novel assumes that he's sitting behind his desk, apparently unarmed and suddenly leapes right at Tiin with a lightsaber in hand so fast that two of them are dead before the first body hits the ground.

And following the movie version, they can't belong to the greatest. Presenting red herrings here or plain and simply ignoring context/source of the quote doesn't help much to defeat that point. The discrepancy between novel and movie here is just based off the fight scene that Lucas changed and that made the trio look much worse than they look in the novel. And I don't see how somebody can gloss over that fact by siting the novel which assumes an entirely different fight happening.

Lightsnake

Nai, do us all a favor and don't pretend that's the only source singing their praises, especially considering we see Kit do things like defeat Grievous one on one and earlier in the novel, the narrator describes Agen as one of the best duelists in order history.

You've been given other sources on them before.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nai, do us all a favor and don't pretend that's the only source singing their praises, especially considering we see Kit do things like defeat Grievous one on one and earlier in the novel, the narrator describes Agen as one of the best duelists in order history.

You've been given other sources on them before.

Oh. Any other source calling them the greatest ever, Lightsnake? Ironically, the only "other source" you list is the RotS novel again.

But, of course, I could just skim through their archievements, which would - actually - be your work to come with, right?

Kit Fisto
- surviving Geonosis (kind of a feat there)
- getting his ass handed to him by Asajj Ventress (Cestus Deception)
- Defeating Grievous? Yes. If force pushing the General to the ground counts as "defeating" him (despite the fight continues after this), then you have a point. Especially since the General is known for his great defense against force attacks...
- getting chopped in half by Sidious

So let me make that clear. Ventress > Fisto. And Ventress was totally owned by Dooku, who, according to you and Gideon, is not on one level with Mace, Sidious or Yoda. So let me count: Top Dogs > Dooku (2nd league) > Ventress (3rd league) > Fisto, but he's still among the best, not just of the era but ever?

Agen Kolar
- surviving Geonosis
- defeating Quinlan Vos
- dying against Sidious.

With Kolar, you may have a point because he defeated Vos, who in turn took on people like Sora Bulq. Yet, here again, the number of lightsaber duel exploits is limited to one successful lightsaber fight.

Saesee Tiin
- I wonder where the great deeds in terms of lightsaber combat can be found, given that Tiin was mostly noted for his piloting skills.

So based on that and a quote from an in-universe character you want to argue that the trio belongs to the "best swordsmen" that the order "ever" produced? I'd like to see how you turn that into a convincing argument, Lightsnake.

Lightsnake

Oh, look, a whining tirade by Nai, saying nothing but vitriol and trying to pass his opinion as fact, what else is new.

Hm. If holding his own against Grievous in straight combat isn't a plus, you better never list Mace's fight against Grievous again,, given he force pushed him off the Mag-Lev car.
Hypocrisy? I think so.

Mentioned earlier on as one of the greatest swordsmen the order had ever produced. By the narration. And can't have it both ways: Either Agen sucks or he doesn't. If he doesn't, by virtue of taking on Quinlan Vos and beating him almost without effort, then your entire point? Suffers. Oh, HILARIOUS how you whine about his exploits limited to one successful fight, when you've tried to make arguments in the past for people like Naga Sadow. Who have....no successful fights.

Well, being considered one of the six greatest bladesbeings in the order, we see him sparring Mace on rather even ground in the early Republic comics-the Nightsister arc-...and oh, yeah, we see the three of them systematically dismantle the Bounty Hunter's Guild with Mace.
And yeah, he was known for piloting skills. As we all know...Jedi are never, EVER permitted to specialize in more than one thing. Anakin, the greatest living master of Djem So and the best pilot in the galaxy will be pleased to know this.

I've yet to see your refutation of them referred to as three 'master swordsmen' in the visual guide. And as 'Celebrated Swordsmen' in the Complete Encyclopedia.

Mace himself thinks they're all master swordsmen...y'know what's funny? Given your arguments about Mace and Palpatine being much better than what we see, you're unwilling to imply it the other way because you'd need to accept that *GASP* Palpatine might be that good. What makes more sense? That or three prominent council members, widely considered master duelists in their time by both in and out of universe sources, who are all battle hardened veterans, two of whom have faced master duelists and come out alive, selected personally by Mace Windu to go arrest the greatest enemy of the Republic are really just a trio of untalented weaklings and Lucas didn't intend it any other way?

Gideon

Ladies and gentlemen, this rebuttal will begin with a brief -- but telling -- history lesson. Several years ago, Nai was part of a special clique of debaters around here who staunchly believed that Marka Ragnos (yes, that Marka Ragnos) was the most powerful Force user in the mythos; far beyond the likes of Luke Skywalker, Darth Revan, Darth Sidious. Within my profile, you can find particular nuggets of information. Janus Marius once contended that Darth Bandon (yes, that Darth Bandon) was more powerful than Obi-Wan Kenobi based on reputation alone. Swirly Girl believed that Tulak Hord could absolutely crush most Jedi and Sith (such as Yoda) in the context of a swordfight. Exar Kun was worshipped as a god, as was Luke Skywalker, with Ragnos reigning supreme over them all. Force users such as Yoda and Sidious were widely disregarded and feats were neither explored nor substantiated.

The evidence for Marka Ragnos's status as the supreme overlord of Force users? There is a line on the back of a random comic that refers to him as "the most powerful of the most powerful -- the Dark Lord of the Sith," with no reference to time or position. The second piece of evidence was that "powerful" Sith Lords such as Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh visibly feared Ragnos.

...

...

When someone offered a different perspective, despite such a thin defense, they were flamed and ridiculed. When statements began to be discovered in canon contradicting Ragnos's supremacy, such as the many supporting Sidious, they were disregarded as inspecific and "ambiguous."

Fast forward to the future, long after Lightsnake changed things around here, Nai is here ever-so-arrogantly arguing the contrary. All statements that he doesn't like are open to interpretation and suspect. Because Tiin, Fisto, and Kolar aren't bursting with feats to support their accolades, the statements must be disregarded.

...

...

You may be tempted to draw delicious parallels to the Ragnos incident; you may be sorely inclined to ask: "But what a damn second... Marka Ragnos's only feats are dying under mysterious circumstances and getting his ass kicked by a random Jedi Knight in a video game. How can Nai or Janus or anyone else name him 'teh uber Sith godz!1!' when there's absolutely nothing to support that idea?"

The answer: "They made a tragic mistake and are simply far too proud to yield." They were wrong and remain wrong to this day. All you'll get on the issue, though, if you ask them about it, are a series of insults, clever photoshop pictures and signatures, and blatant evasion.

So if you, the audience, wonder why I'm taking such great pleasure out of this, you'll hopefully understand: Nai Fohl is KMC's resident hypocrite. It's pretty sad when people who once sided with you on issues (Faunus and Darth Sexy) think you're a complete moron now.

To the argument:

"Most of the Jedi are deployed on distant worlds, but Mace manages to assemble a trio of celebrated swordmasters to assist him in arresting Palpatine: Agen Kolar, a Zabrak known among the Jedi to strike first and ask questions later; Saesee Tiin, a solitary Iktotchi who has never chosen a Padawan learner; and Kit Fisto, Nautolan master of Form I lightsaber technique, who has distinguished himself on Geonosis and Mon Calamari, and who partnered Mace in battling Grievous on Coruscant." -- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 163.

"Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors -- Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto -- to arrest the Chancellor." -- the official databank, Mace Windu.

"The mighty warrior not only advised the highest office of the Republic, but was also part of the Jedi taskforce assembled by Mace Windu to rescue captives from the Separatist stronghold on Geonosis." -- the official databank, Kit Fisto.

"Bouri instilled a strong sense of conviction in Tiin, honing the Iktotchi's skill and dedication to the order to the point that some would describe Tiin as fanatical." -- the official databank, Saesee Tiin.

"Despite such hushed criticism, Tiin was a formidable warrior and an incredible pilot." -- the official databank, Saesee Tiin.

"Among the 200 Jedi that journeyed to the barren world of Geonosis was Agen Kolar, a male Zabrak of considerable skill." -- the official databank, Agen Kolar.

"Agen Kolar was a tough combatant, and diplomacy was not his strong suit." -- the official databank, Agen Kolar.

As I expected (and called!), Nai did not address my counterargument of Yoda's lack of reaction to Palpatine's Force lightning during the fight in the Rotunda.

Canon contradicts him all around and Lucas sides with me. The three Jedi might not be good enough to take on Sidious, but neither is Dooku or Obi-Wan, and they, too, are regarded as some of the finest Jedi in history.

I win.

Dr McBeefington

http://usversusthem.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/owned.jpg

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, look, a whining tirade by Nai, saying nothing but vitriol and trying to pass his opinion as fact, what else is new.

For somebody that, from the day he registered here, has done nothing else but trying to pass the idea that Sidious is the most powerful Sith down as fact, that are some nice words. And the only person that keeps whining here (like cheese with your whine?) is yourself. Hypocrisy much?

Oh. Wait a second. If I go by your last posting, Fisto has defeated the General. So, to rephrase that: Fisto's greatest showing of lightsaber skill is his ability to "hold his own against Grievous in straight combat"? That's the basis for him being one of the best swordsman ever ? Like...I'don't know...Ahsoka, who managed to do the same? Really...

Dooku has lectured Grievous twice ("Labyrinth of Evil" and "TCW - Lair of Grievous" wink

that he wouldn't be able to overcome a Jedi Master (in LoE = Council members) in direct confrontation, unless he has the elements of surprise, intimidation and fear on his side. So does every Jedi Master now belong to the "best swordsman ever" department, Lightsnake, because - accoding to Dooku, everyone of that group could simply defeat Grievous (maybe by simply force pwning him like Fisto and Mace did)?

a)
Try studying some literature, Lightsnake. Here is the part of the text you mentioned:

Perhaps of all the Council, only Obi-Wan could detect the shadow of disappointment and hurt that crept into Anakin's eyes. Obi-Wan understood perfectly, and could even sympathize: to take the field would have slipped Anakin out from under the pressures of what he saw as his conflicting duties.
"Given the strain on our current resources," Mace Windu said, "I
recommend we send only one Jedi-Master Kenobi."
Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar-both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced-here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move. Not to mention Anakin, who was a brigade's worth of firepower in his own right.
Obi-Wan nodded. Perfectly logical. Everyone would agree. Except Anakin.

This is just great, Lightsnake. The third person limited narrator is reviewing the entire scene through the eyes of Kenobi, giving us just Kenobi's observations and Kenobi's thoughts. So what do we have here? Oh yes, my friend. We have Kenobi thinking that Mace and Agen are among the greatest bladesbeings ever. Or, to make short work of your "argument": You're trying to prove Kenobi's thoughts right by using Kenobi's thoughts. That's indeed HILARIOUS.

b)
My previous arguments aren't of any matter here, Lightsnake. Ad hominem doesn't save your argument. Even if I told you myself that one of the trio belongs to the greatest ever anno 2004 - or last week for that matter, I'm still free to question the validity of the statement now. And, if you can't come up with an approbiate answer, you simply lose the debate. End of story.

Where? By whom? The list of the "greatests bladesbeings the order ever produced" does, at the moment, consist of: Yoda, Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Count Dooku, Cin Drallig, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, Sora Bulq, Anoon Bondara, Qui-Gon Jinn, Depa Billaba, Quinlan Vos and Shaak Ti. And those are just the PT era beings that I could mention right of my mind. Apparently every Jedi that receives more than 10 second of screen time, ten lines in a novel or 2 panels in a comic does possess godlike lightsaber abilities.

The important word up there is "sparring". And I love how you draw conclusions regarding actual skill level out of still pictures showing a sparring match.

We see Luke killing a group of bounty hunters and later cutting his way through the entire Black Sun HQ in SotE. Does that mean that Luke between ESB and SotE = "one of the greatest bladesbeings ever"? Hell. We saw blind Han Solo pwning Boba Fett in melee combat in RotJ. Does he also belong to the most competent duellist in the saga?

Or shall we simply listen to Lucas idea in the TPM commentary, where he says that Jedi are invincible, unless you take them out with dirty tricks or being outnumbered by far (like on Geonosis)? Quite frankly: In direct combat, a bounty hunter doesn't pose any threat for a Jedi. Notice how even Jango, at that time the "deadliest man alive" according to Mace (so clearly the deadliest bounty hunter if you want to believe that statement) fails to overcome Kenobi, even with fire support of Slave-I.

Both almost directly quoting the novel on this issue? Really. If you go arguing in circles, you still don't get anywhere.

Wow. I doubt a statement because it comes from an in-universe character. You reply with thoughts of an in-universe character. I think that is funny, Lightsnake.

Wow. Playing dumb now? Because I said that if you belief Leland Chee and the novel, they might just move faster than we perceive it on screen. Which doesn't mean that I agree with any of that, especially not since the novel contradicts the movie once again here (Anakin doesn't see anything of the duel).

And please. I even said that Sidious is good with a lightsaber (given that he survives longer than 30 seconds against both Yoda and Mace). That doesn't mean he has to be leagues above "some of the best ever" when the latter thought just happens in Kenobi's mind.

Woah. You are certainly talking about two replacement council members (Fisto, Kolar) and Saesee Tinn, considered master duelists by only Kenobi and source material quoting him, of whom two have force pushed "master duellists" (according to Lightsnake). And those are selected personally by Master Windu for the special task to confront Sidious. Just keep ignoring that they are standing right next to Mace when Anakin comes running with the breaking new who the Sith Lord is - why? Mace explains it perfectly: "We're on our way to make sure that the Chancellor returns emergency power back to the senate" and then he leaves Anakin behind because not thrusting his words yet. So Mace Windu must be the only person that can hand pick people for a mission before knowing what the mission will be. Or did he hand-pick the "orderst finest" to confront a power-hungry politician?

Or, can it be that George Lucas, who - according to his own words - doesn't give a flying ducky about the EU (including those accolades and everything else regarding those characters in the C-Canon material) just thought it would be a good idea to let Sidious mutilate some cannon fodder with his lightsaber, just to emphasize how kick ass Samuel L. Jackson's character ("I'd like to have that special lightsaber and an uber death for Mace Windu, George...please!" wink

and, of course, Sidious himself, are? The very same George Lucas that placed the trio firmly below the people he consideres to be "the best duelists" in the SW universe?

Well. I wonder what's more likely. Occam's Razor anybody?

Gideon

Oh, I forgot to mention that Nai is notorious for outright lying in order to keep his argument from being put on life support. Alas, my friend, you are much too late: the patient is quite terminal.

First, I have to address your characteristic double standard. You refuse to adhere to the word of Mace Windu and yet you take the word of Count Dooku -- the word of a lying, deceitful Lord of the Sith -- as the gospel to make your argument?

That, Nai, will simply not do.

Second, Count Dooku didn't say that at all:

Nowhere does Count Dooku say or suggest that he would fail to overcome a Jedi Master without surprise, intimidation, or fear. He simply lectures that "power moves" wouldn't necessarily be sufficient to get the job done. Indeed, the very same book shows Grievous pitted against Mace Windu in single combat and is able to analyze Vaapad and respond in kind, prompting Mace to conclude that " wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary."

You can't even win when you lie.

Edit:

Also a lie.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
Ladies and gentlemen, this rebuttal will begin with a brief -- but telling -- history lesson. Several years ago, Nai was part of a special clique of debaters around here who staunchly believed that Marka Ragnos (yes, that Marka Ragnos) was the most powerful Force user in the mythos; far beyond the likes of Luke Skywalker, Darth Revan, Darth Sidious. Within my profile, you can find particular nuggets of information. Janus Marius once contended that Darth Bandon (yes, that Darth Bandon) was more powerful than Obi-Wan Kenobi based on reputation alone. Swirly Girl believed that Tulak Hord could absolutely crush most Jedi and Sith (such as Yoda) in the context of a swordfight. Exar Kun was worshipped as a god, as was Luke Skywalker, with Ragnos reigning supreme over them all. Force users such as Yoda and Sidious were widely disregarded and feats were neither explored nor substantiated.

The evidence for Marka Ragnos's status as the supreme overlord of Force users? There is a line on the back of a random comic that refers to him as "the most powerful of the most powerful -- the Dark Lord of the Sith," with no reference to time or position. The second piece of evidence was that "powerful" Sith Lords such as Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh visibly feared Ragnos.

...

...

When someone offered a different perspective, despite such a thin defense, they were flamed and ridiculed. When statements began to be discovered in canon contradicting Ragnos's supremacy, such as the many supporting Sidious, they were disregarded as inspecific and "ambiguous."

Fast forward to the future, long after Lightsnake changed things around here, Nai is here ever-so-arrogantly arguing the contrary. All statements that he doesn't like are open to interpretation and suspect. Because Tiin, Fisto, and Kolar aren't bursting with feats to support their accolades, the statements must be disregarded.

...

...

You may be tempted to draw delicious parallels to the Ragnos incident; you may be sorely inclined to ask: "But what a damn second... Marka Ragnos's only feats are dying under mysterious circumstances and getting his ass kicked by a random Jedi Knight in a video game. How can Nai or Janus or anyone else name him 'teh uber Sith godz!1!' when there's absolutely nothing to support that idea?"

The answer: "They made a tragic mistake and are simply far too proud to yield." They were wrong and remain wrong to this day. All you'll get on the issue, though, if you ask them about it, are a series of insults, clever photoshop pictures and signatures, and blatant evasion.

So if you, the audience, wonder why I'm taking such great pleasure out of this, you'll hopefully understand: Nai Fohl is KMC's resident hypocrite. It's pretty sad when people who once sided with you on issues (Faunus and Darth Sexy) think you're a complete moron now.

Ad hominem. Not worth my time. Next please.

The quote is contradicted by the movie: Mace doesn't pick the trio to arrest Palpatine. He, by his own words, assembled them to "make sure that the Chancellor gives emergency power back to the Senate". When assembling the trio, Mace didn't even know that he was up to confront a Sith Lord, as Anakin told him later.

I'm still not finding anything noteworthy in regards to their skill.

Statement released after the novel. Arguing in circles. You know it, I know it - so why do you try to substantiate something by quoting something that follows from the point you want to substantiate?

By Lucas own words, every single Jedi is invincible...I wonder what random quotes from the databank to change here. So Fisto is a "mighty warrior" that means he belongs to the "elite" of an entire order filled with mighty warriors how exactly?

Judgement from another character who merely points out Tiin's dedication to the order...

And still criticism about his person was made?

So Kolar is on par with the other dozen of people that survived Geonosis, including Padme?

Wow. "Tough combatant" equals "one of the best the order has ever" produced now.

Because a red hering doesn't qualify as counter-argument, Gideon. You should have learned it by know.

Yes. Maybe because Dooku and Obi-Wan managed to put up some defense against the likes of Yoda, Mace (Dooku) and Anakin (Kenobi), where at least two of the trio (Kolar, Tiin) died because six f*cking seconds aren't enough to come up with some defensive stance against a Sith Lord that comes flying at you with an ignited lightsaber.

...the pointless verbosity contest. We have half a post worth of one ad hominem argument, that doesn't do anything and the other half is just litered with quotes that don't prove anything. Good job wasting storage space on the internet, Gideon.

Dr McBeefington

I'm afraid there was no ad hominem Nai. If you actually spent more time learning to debate(logically), and less time trying to memorize logical fallacies, you'd see that Escape did nothing but factually state your positions, and their flaws in reasoning. But keep going.

Gideon

Something tells me that my brilliance has been upgraded to outright omniscience, or you're just predictable.

Then again, you posted this not too long ago:

Talk about ad hominem. So, once again, we reaffirm that you are both a hypocrite and a liar.

The sentence does not contradict the movie; Windu believed Palpatine would not yield his powers and intended to arrest him at such time; the statement also does not contradict the fact that Mace was unaware of Palpatine's Sith allegiance until Anakin's revelation.

Blatant evasion, indeed.

Remember that line I used on Janus? The one that said how it wasn't up to him to interpret or decide what is or is not canon? Yeah, that applies to you, too.

Prove that it was released specifically after the novel and before the movie, and then prove how that makes a difference.

Not at all; more or less a straight line. I'm chasing you with fact and logic and you're hauling ass in the opposite, eternal direction. No circles or geometric shapes involved.

This is affirmation of their status.

...

Another lie for the record.

"Bouri instilled a strong sense of conviction in Tiin, honing the Iktotchi's skill and dedication to the order to the point that some would describe Tiin as fanatical." -- the official databank, Saesee Tiin.

That's pretty stupid, since the statement does not imply that Kolar's skill was "on par" with the other 200 Jedi; his skill was noted as being considerable among those Jedi; an obvious qualifier to set him apart.

It was a legitimate argument using your own logic. If applied universally, Yoda was a moron of epic proportions. You lose.

George Lucas: "You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine."

Not "defeat" or "fight well" but to compete on any given level.

I win .

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
For somebody that, from the day he registered here, has done nothing else but trying to pass the idea that Sidious is the most powerful Sith down as fact, that are some nice words. And the only person that keeps whining here (like cheese with your whine?) is yourself. Hypocrisy much?
I'm detecting bitterness, Nai. Coincidence?

I haven't seen much of TCW so you'll pardon me. Ahsoka took him on in direct combat, one on one and not only held her own, but practically beat him?

No, he didn't. He said with how Grievous currently acted, he pitied him if he had to fight any high Council Member. Considering how many Jedi masters Grievous has made mincemeat of...even when they were ready for him...Adi Gallia for one, a former High Council Member herself.
Are you really going to deny defeating Grievous makes one a force to be reckoned with?

The third person? Nai, English isn't your first language, but don't distort things.

Also noting that maybe-just maybe- there's something to Mace and Obi-wan praising these swordsmen. Could it be...they DON'T suck?

Oh, do shut up about ad hominem until you stop employing it every post. You're saying 'my previous arguments don't apply' when you're trying to force double standards around?

Or MAYBE the PT, the 'Prime of the Jedi' according to Lucas, has a LOT OF GOOD FIGHTERS! Gee, fancy that! We could easily rattle some more damned fine fighters off. Why? Because it was a damn fine era.

Yeah, Mace Windu, noted by Quin Vos for not holding back during sparring matches is REALLY going light on poor Saesee who's keeping pace with Mace who's considering him a worthy opponent.
Nai, perhaps there's a time to reflect when MAYBE you might be wrong. Your argument here's grown to "They're just sparring, it's invalid!"
It's a wee bit hypocritical to tout Depa as anything resembling a great fighter given her accolades are just from third person sources.

I was unaware Luke-who was backed up at Black Sun by a large Strike Team- took on a station full of the best bounty hunters alive and actually won. And Luke did a damn fine job putting down Guri in single combat, so there's something to his end there. And when did Han and Boba actually, y'know, fight?
In other words quit twisting things to support your argument

I'm unsure at the point you're trying to make here

How about this: It's more vlaid than your opinion and you brushing it aside on flimsy pretense is getting pathetic

"I doubt this statement. But not this one. I actually like the other character."
Hypocrisy alert

And your point is....? Nobody was arguing Anakin seeing the duel was canon

And supported by every source that credits their skill. Funny that. And Lucas himself

Lightsnake

Pathetic. As usual.
1. The novelization makes clear after hearing this? Mace consults with Yoda and they decide to arrest Palpatine. He does NOT go immediately to Palpatine's office. Point 1 down
2. They're 'replacement' council member.s and? Any reason to doubt their worthiness on the council suddenly when everything supports their skill?

Or, more realistically, he let him kill High Council Jedi to show how dangerous he was. Oh my GOD! The best Jedi ever are better than three other great Jedi! I mean, this must mean Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow are canon fodder given they were less powerful than Marka Ragnos!
Yeah, Lucas placed them below the three best duelists in the movies. I fail to see how this makes them suck

Poor deluded Nai. Novelization makes clear that after Anakin informs him of this, Mace goes to conact and tell Yoda and they decide to 'take the Republic back.' Mace assembles the team afterwards. Oh, I'm afraid this is canon, unless Mace ever tells anyone. "We went STRAIGHT to the Chancellor's office with no stops!

Yeah, calling them 'strongest Jedi warriors" means nothing.
You're wrong. Just ****ing man up.

Yeah, calling him a mighty warrior? Means NOTHING! Despite how being on the council in wartime means something's going for him.

That's the databank, which is 3rd person omniscient. It's not from his master's POV

Yeah, and DESPITE IT, his skill was still great. What a weasel you are.

It just says he had considerable skill. Not that it enabled him to survive there. What's your point?

Apply that with EVERYTHING ELSE and it means at least 'more than cannon fodder

Yeah, BAD CHOREOGRAPHY is a great thing to attack despite you attacking Nebaris over using that against Mace vs. Palpatine.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
Something tells me that my brilliance has been upgraded to outright omniscience, or you're just predictable.

Which doesn't erase you attempt to use an ad hominem to discredit my argument.

You do know what an ad hominem is, Gideon? An ad hominem is not equal to an simple insult (hint: I was just insulting you). An ad hominem is an insult that is commited to disprove the argument your opponent just make.

In short: "Your an arrogant idiot" is not equal to "You're an arrogant idiot and therefor your argument sucks" or "But yesterday, you were stating the opposite, hence your argument is invalid". Do you get the point now? I'm really tired of explaining that one.

No. Windu doesn't even know that Sidious was the Sith Lord. His reaction to this revelation: He says that if that should be true that's the worst thing that could have happened. Yet he still doesn't thrust Anakin hence leaving him behind, again mentioning that Anakin has earned his thrust if telling the truth

So, Mace didn't know that this visit to Sidious office would include fighting the Sith Lord, hence he couldn't create a task force for that particular task.

And it applies to yourself as well, Gideon. You're trying to enforce your interpretations on us as well, if you're not able to realize that simple fact. At least Janus and I can agree to disagree on certain issues, while you - as it seems - can't stand anything that contests your ideas.

Prove that the database has any level of canon if not backed up by other sources. Wow. That was an easy victory.

No. You're trying to prove a statement by taking the very same statement coming from another source and just post it again. That equals = must be right, because must be right. Petitio principii or arguing in circles.

And considering that you don't have any grasp of "logic" and possible don't even know what that freaking word means, I'm thrilled by the idea that you could chase me with it.

And it's just another character judgement. Funny stuff.
And I know, you will try to point out the "double standard" here again. Just for the record: Since I don't think that character statements are "canon", I can ignore them. Since you think the have to be canon, I can use them against you. That's a fairly easy concept. The double-standard or hypocrisy would just kick in if I were assuming the above mentioned. Yet, it simply follows from your actions here...

Surviving the battle is also an obvious qualifier to set Padme apart from the Jedi who managed to die in the arena, Gideon. So, by reversing that little line of thought of yours, we can conclude that all people not surviving there are worse combatants than Padme. So his skill is noteworthy among a bunch of moving targets? big grin

No. It is still an "argument" not touching the debate, ignoring the media in which it is presented in and ignoring the context in which it happens. This is called "red herring". And my logic? My logic, dear Gideon, is based upon a condratiction between novel and movie in regards to a fight and the conclusions that the novel draws from that retconned version which can't be derived from the higher canon of the movie.

That's a fairly easy concept, Gideon.

Which means, if you aren't Mace or Yoda, you can't compete with Palpatine on any given level, which logically contradicts the idea, that the trio belongs to the same league with the people who can do the job.

...this nice award here (Just to inflame the prejudices):
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8306/awardw.jpg

Dr McBeefington

Wow Nai, you're as predictable as Escape had claimed. I was just waiting for some kind of picture or photoshop and there it is, like clockwork!

Borbarad

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Pathetic. As usual.
1. The novelization makes clear after hearing this? Mace consults with Yoda and they decide to arrest Palpatine. He does NOT go immediately to Palpatine's office. Point 1 down

Actually, he consults with Yoda before hearing this which is still contradicted by the higher level canon because that consultation happens in the command center and Anakin moves right in there after it to reveal Sidious identity. Mace isn't in the command centre but in the hangar when that happens and he doesn't believe Anakin.

So we're now going to take scenes contradicting the movie as canon because of your fanboy attitude? Nice try, Lightsnake.

You mean "everything" with the exception of Lucas quote and the fact that they get cut down by a Sith Lord because not managing to come up with a sufficient defense in more than six seconds which is another G-Canon source.

Once again: Kenobi's thoughts > George Lucas?

In comparison to Ragnos, they apparently are cannon fodder, given how they worship his freaking spirit and Kressh thought that the freaking ionized air-particiles of Ragnos could destroy Sadow...
Red herring again. It gets old.

Who says they suck, Lightsnake. I'm just contesting Kenobi's idea that they are "some of the best swordsman ever produced by the Order". Do you get it now? There are more shades to skill than "You're godlike" and "YOU SUCK!"

Poor deluded Lightsnake. The novelization has the talk between Mace and Yoda happen before Anakin stumbles into the room, not even able to talk any more and Mace just figures out that Sidious is the Sith Lord - without Anakin telling it to him. And this scene is completely contradicted by the movie. It's simply not there. So it's O-U-T.

Pulling the words out of the novel, where they are issued by Kenobi, without a reason there. Really. Are you retarded?

So everybody that ever moved his ass into a seat on the council belongs to the "best swordsman ever" department?!

That's Lightsnake talking in first person idiocy. It's a databank, for christs sake. It just sums up information. Is wikipedia also 3rd person omniscient? Holy crap.

That any Jedi has considerable skill. Hell. An ape being able to juggle with balls has "considerable skill". You get the point now?

And it still doesn't result in "best swordsman the order has ever produced" which is what you want to prove here.

So we take the novel version, where Sidious distracts Tiin, making him lower his defense and spins over the desk with the lightsaber ignited and beheads him in a split second - instead of giving a freaking monologue with an ignited lightsaber in hand without moving

Really. What do you want? Either Sidious has to trick them in order to make one of them lower his defenses and then attack them with a previously concealed lightsaber, which means he didn't kill them we just his lightsaber skill. Or he did stand up, ignites his lightsaber, has a nice chat, jumps to the Jedi, does a nice stabbing movement - without Kolar an Tiin feeling any need to come up with an reaction.

What is it now, Lightsnake? You can chose the version you like (which is already defying the LFL canon policy that clearly states movie > novel), but the result, in either case, is that Sidious didn't butcher "some of the best swordsman ever" with his superior lightsaber skill. He either tricked some of the best, or fought against statues totally devoid of reaction time.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wow Nai, you're as predictable as Escape had claimed. I was just waiting for some kind of picture or photoshop and there it is, like clockwork!

Read: "Just to inflame the prejudices" - aka "I'll post a picture now, so that Gideon will be right with his contention that I will post one".

As it seems, you're still a troll not capable of reading. I see, the last month didn't change anything. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Borbarad
Read: "Just to inflame the prejudices" - aka "I'll post a picture now, so that Gideon will be right with his contention that I will post one".

As it seems, you're still a troll not capable of reading. I see, the last month didn't change anything. roll eyes (sarcastic)

A troll would be the person that comes here attempting to sound intelligent, failing miserably, then getting his ass handed to him, then leaving for a month, only to come back and begin the process all over again. Thanks for making it easy Nai laughing out loud

Borbarad

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
A troll would be the person that comes here attempting to sound intelligent, failing miserably, then getting his ass handed to him, then leaving for a month, only to come back and begin the process all over again. Thanks for making it easy Nai laughing out loud

No. A troll wouldn't even be able to leave for a month, because he needs attention (no matter if in the form of insults) and hence stays around the board to attempt and bait people. He will even make a new account when permanently banned from the board for trolling. Does any of that sound familiar, Dave?

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Borbarad
Actually, he consults with Yoda before hearing this which is still contradicted by the higher level canon because that consultation happens in the command center and Anakin moves right in there after it to reveal Sidious identity. Mace isn't in the command centre but in the hangar when that happens and he doesn't believe Anakin.

So we're now going to take scenes contradicting the movie as canon because of your fanboy attitude? Nice try, Lightsnake.
I'm gonna be REALLY generous here and assume you aren't remembering it right.
AFTER Anakin tells Mace and is told to remain behind

In the virtual nonspace of the HoloNet, two Jedi Masters meet.

One is ancient, tiny, with skin of green leather and old wisdom in his eyes, standing in a Kashyyyk cave hollowed from the trunk of a vast wroshyr tree; the other is tall and fierce, seated before a holodisk in Coruscant's Jedi Temple.

To each other, they are blue ghosts, given existence by scanning lasers. Though they are light-years apart, they are of one mind; it hardly matters who says what.

Now they know the truth.

For more than a decade, the Republic has been in the hands of the Sith.

Now, together, blue ghost to blue ghost, they decide to take it back.

In summary? You are full of shit.

I love how you just ignore bad choreography when it suits you-like when making the argument on Mace vs. Palpatine, but won't extend it to two seconds prior. Tell me, how DO you rectify this with them being high council members, battle hardened veterans, two of whom has taken on and bested high level fighters?
And 'with the exception of Lucas?' Yeah, not being Mace or Yoda means you just suck. Not being the two greatest Jedi duelists in history? You're nothing, you're dirt. Pathetic.

Point out where GL ever says "Agen, Saesee and Kit are horrible fighters." and not your flawed, biased, ****ed up interpretations of what goes on in the movies because you can't admit you're wrong

Oh, so are Kressh and Sadow weak? I mean, if they're just canon fodder to the best of their time, they must suck, right?
Is the point reaching you or are you too pigheaded for it?

Your calling them CANON FODDER implies as much. Can you even read your posts, you hypocritical idiot?

LIAR.
You, sir? ARE. A. LIAR. Here me? **** being nice, here's a bit of the scene preceding it and the one right after:

"Anakin, wait in the Council Chamber until we get back."

"Wh-what? Master-"

"That's an order, Anakin."

"But-but-but the Chancellor-" Anakin says desperately, clutching at the Jedi Master's hand. "What are you going to do?" And it is the true measure of Mace Windu that, even now, he still is telling the truth when he says, "Only as much as I have to."

In the virtual nonspace of the HoloNet, two Jedi Masters meet.

One is ancient, tiny, with skin of green leather and old wisdom in his eyes, standing in a Kashyyyk cave hollowed from the trunk of a vast wroshyr tree; the other is tall and fierce, seated before a holodisk in Coruscant's Jedi Temple.

To each other, they are blue ghosts, given existence by scanning lasers. Though they are light-years apart, they are of one mind; it hardly matters who says what.

Now they know the truth.

For more than a decade, the Republic has been in the hands of the Sith.

Now, together, blue ghost to blue ghost, they decide to take it back.

**** being charitable here. You're wrong or you're lying, everyone can see it and right now? I opt for the latter. So fess up and admit you're wrong here.

Oh, look, the pathetic brat is whinging about how his interpretation is so right. Hm, sorry, Nai, narrator perspective, kindly shut up now. Not that you'll ever admit when your wrong. Lucas would come to your house, drag you to the walls and scream into your ear how you're wrong and you'd still find a way to weasel out of it

Evasion. Again. It shows they, added to the council in wartime, and by accomplishments, are CERTAINLY better than 'cannon fodder' than you give them credit for.
Still love how Obi-wan= dead wrong
But Depa>All because Mace thinks so.
Hypocrite

Yeha, it's the databank, it's factual laid out information and not from anyone's perspective. It's canon info about Star Wars. You can shut up now and stop dancing around when your points are crushed into the dirt.

Yeah, three high council members constantly lauded by sources and their peers are totally, completely and utterly complete scrubs, despite being named by the databank as three of the Jedi's strongest warriors. You are a God of self denial and a hypocritical joke of a moron to boot. If anyone pulled this shit on the ancient Sith back in the day you'd have screamed at them until you were blue in the face. Oh, wait, you did. Did you ever extend this to "every Sith is powerful! This means NOTHING!" Crap when talking about character you fanboy over?

Still applies to Agen and like it or not, they were three of the best around and much better than you'd give them credit for, which has always been the argument here. Which Gideon supplied with numerous sources

Obviously, they think they can handle it, then he's on them and they're dead. Given we know they are not to the high, high tier Mace, Yoda and Palpatine occupy, YOUR POINT? Are you going to squeal at Nebaris again how Mace and Palpatine fighting slowly doesn't invalidate their abilities while you'll not apply this to the same ****ing scene?

Or MAYBE the choreography was just bad and he was on them faster than they could react. Gonna argue Mace sucks? No? THEN WHY THE **** IS HE LETTING HIS ALLIES DIE?

No, Nai, that's not the result. I think you're unclear on that you don't get to decide canon and in the end? You are wrong. You lose. Good day, sir.

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Borbarad
No. A troll wouldn't even be able to leave for a month, because he needs attention (no matter if in the form of insults) and hence stays around the board to attempt and bait people. He will even make a new account when permanently banned from the board for trolling. Does any of that sound familiar, Dave?

Seeing as how you constantly look retarded by calling me a troll without any evidence, and you get no support from the mods, you're the perfect definition of a troll. Thanks for making my case for me Nai.

Lightsnake

And you know something? Before you shriek and ***** about ad hominen, get something through your skull:
I have tried to be civil with you time and again and each and every ****ing time you dance around like the most intentionally insulting dick you can be.. So if you're gonna whine about ad hominem? Shut it. I don't want to hear it. The moment I see a post of yours free of insults in the time you get any civility from me back. You don't get to demand civility while offering none yourself.

Gideon

I think we're just about all sick and tired of having to go through this song and dance another time, so I'm going to cut to the chase, Nai. This is the situation as see it: we've been going back and forth with you for years on the same subjects; the problem is that we remember the time when you subscribed to the notion that Marka Ragnos was the most powerful Sith Lord/Force-user in the mythos and that Count Dooku was better than Sidious. I'm not certain if this is part of the routine or you are simply that reluctant to admit when you're wrong, but you are wrong about this. There is a reason why the Let's-Fellate-Ragnos campaign is dead, and was even dead at EoD. You all may not have formally accepted the fact that it was a terminal issue, but it registered within the confines of your brain. Hell, even Janus only tries to bring the issue up to annoy me; it's only ever argued as a matter of ego by people much too stubborn to admit that they were wrong.

I have no intention of arguing the same issue forever. Here are the facts: Palpatine is more powerful than Count Dooku and Marka Ragnos is not the most powerful Sith Lord/Force-user ever. The arguments you have made since your "return" are filled with blatant contradictions and double standards. You take Mace Windu's opinion on Depa Billaba to be factual; something Faunus and I both called you out on, yet he is not a credible source when it comes to Obi-Wan Kenobi or his fellow Jedi Masters? You'll place stock in the words of a lying, deceitful Sith Lord to prove your argument, and you have to put a spin on those? You periodically cite Palpatine as the most powerful Sith Lord ever, and then will harass me ad nauseum and claim that it isn't true.

It's not something that is cute or funny. It's rather stupid that, for whatever reason, you feel inclined to put such a blatant spin for some agenda. When you try to defend Janus's logic and I apply it to another example, you predictably label it as a red herring when it concerns one of your favorite characters.

Like it or not, you lack a certain objectivity when you debate. You've never been known for it. Neither has Janus. That you are driven to completely ignore facts because you made a faulty contention that you can't reconcile with yourself is asinine.

The long and short of it is that we've all tried to get you to discuss this perceived logical miscarriage with us for years , but you never accepted, which suggests that you really don't have any faith in the shit you type. This isn't meant to be offensive, it's meant to be honest. I truly see no sense in what you type. Not because I think you're stupid, but because I think you're stubborn.

I expect another evasion or a diatribe, because if there's one thing you're not, it's direct (you're blunt, it's a little different).

I think the time has come for you to repent for your sins, lol. Admit that you were wrong about Ragnos and Dooku. It would give us some common ground to start building something other than insults on.

Dr McBeefington

You and LS are way too nice and passive about stupidity. Face reality, Nai's not going to change. He's going to come back here with his pseudo logic and poorly constructed humor, and we're going to go in circles again.

Gideon

Probably.

But then I feel like the police officer who is telling a suspect to lower his weapon. I'm giving him a chance. If and when he doesn't, and I'm forced to shoot back, it'll be justified. I'm right and he's wrong.

Nephthys

Sooo... much....ego. Can't.....brea....th.

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Gideon
Probably.

But then I feel like the police officer who is telling a suspect to lower his weapon. I'm giving him a chance. If and when he doesn't, and I'm forced to shoot back, it'll be justified. I'm right and he's wrong.

Haven't you done this for years now?

Red Nemesis

Define 'pseudologic', if you will.

Eminence

You are a pseudointellectual Godless apple with banana flavor.

You are owed zero explanations.

Red Nemesis

shut up you wej.

Eminence

PseudoHUMAN

lyke u

Edit: Or an android.

Dr McBeefington

You need a breath mint

Eminence

Prove it.

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Eminence
Prove it.

I smell your posts all the way from my NEW MILLENNIUM COMPUTER.

Eminence

2001/5 Computer = New Millenium.
2009 Virus = New Millenium.

Dr McBeefington

You still rockin Windows 3.1?

Eminence

XP, but I use Explorer. I'm set in my ways like that.

Borbarad

Sorry for my late replies. I had a little bit of work to do during the last two weeks and I didn't want to post, before having the time to come up with one reply for anyone belonging to the dynamic trio. Let's start with my very special friend Lightsnake:

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm gonna be REALLY generous here and assume you aren't remembering it right.

In summary? You are full of shit.

Oh yes. And now let's have a look what happens after this, oh genius:

Night held the Jedi Temple.
On its rooftop landing deck, thin yellow light spilled in a stretching
rectangle through a shuttle's hatchway, reflecting upward onto the faces of three Jedi Masters.

Clouds had swept in with the twilight, and now a thin drizzling rain
began to fall. The approaching Master walked with his shaven head lowered, his hands tucked within his sleeves.

Mace Windu turned a grim stare upon the High Council Tower, squinting against the thickening rain. His hands withdrew from his sleeves. One of them held his lightsaber. "He has done his duty, Masters. Now we shall do ours." He walked between them into the shuttle.

In short: You're a stubborn, fanboyish idiot, an illiterate and too freaking stupid to grasp easy concepts. To make it clear for anybody with an IQ over 30 (which might exclude yourself, Lightsnake):

Novel: Anakin comes stumbling into the command center of the temple and can't even talk. Windu figures out who the Sith Lord is. He then sents Anakin to the Council Tower and - still in the command center - calls Yoda again as he did just before (which was the scene I was referring to). After this, he walks from the command center to the other Jedi, that are waiting in the hangar and they fly to Sidious office.

Movie = Higher level canon: Mace is not in the command center but the four Jedi have already gathered in the hangar (which happens after the entire talking in the novel) when Anakin tells Windu who the Sith Lord is. After this, Mace doesn't walk into the command center to speak to Yoda again - as it does happen in the novel - he just moves into the gunboat and the four Jedi move directly to Sidious office.

Let me make this clear: Unless you want to tell me, that Mace beamed himself from the gunboat into the command center and back into Sidious office - there was no talk with Yoda happening after Anakin revealed who the Sith Lord is. I hope this fact has arrived in the primordial soup in which you mental protozoon dwell. And, on a sidenote: In the talk happening between Mace and Yoda, Yoda tries to convince Mace that it would be better to sent Anakin, instead of taking the trio with him. So - did he bring the best to do the job, especially when mentioning himself that Obi-Wan and Yoda himself would be the better choice? I don't think so.

Bad choreography? Is the "It's treason then" line that Sidious utters after revealing his lightsaber part of the choreography? The Jedi simply don't bother to react.

And I don't have to "rectify" anything here, Lightsnake. It's your idea that the trio is, literally, among the best the Jedi Order has to offer in his entire history. So you better come up with an explanation why they just stand and watch how the Sith Lord in front of them draws his weapon, accuses them of treason, ignites his lightsaber, jumps at them, performs a slow-ass stabbing motion and kills two of them who don't show any reaction. And a hint: "Bad choreography" doesn't count as explanation, because there isn't any choreography happening in this scene - because nobody, except Sidious, moves.

Apparently they, plain and simply, SUCK in comparison to Sidious, which means that they can't be the orders finest. You can either take that explanation, or the one from the novel (which is generous on my side, given that the novel is the lower level canon). In the novel, Sidious distracts Tiin, who lowers his weapon and then jumps Tiin and Kolar with a previously concealed lightsaber, surprising Kolar and taking Tiin off-guard.

Does it matter? No. Because either Sidious butchered some people that were nothing but cannon fodder (from his point of view) or he took some of the orders best with dirty tricks. It doesn't matter to me, because both versions contradict your opinion(?) that he simply butchered some of the best based on his lightsaber skill.

Strange. I've already mentioned that their are more shades of skill then "godlike" and "noob" - not for the great Lightsnake though. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Not being on - or even close to - Mace or Yoda, simply means, that you can't be "one of the best ever". Is that a thought easy enough for you to understand?

After reading that, I'm fighting the desire to look into your ear to see if I can spot daylight coming the other way. My interpretation of the movies is neither flawed, nor biased. I'm not even offering an interpretation. I'm just stating what happens on screen: They are standing there and get cut down. It's like target practice. That you can't live with that is not my problem.

Do you think that Ragnos could cut down Kressh, Sadow and (let's say) Simus in his prime in the matter of seconds. And would they just let it happen without any reaction because Ragnos would be to fast? And, if that should have happened, would you support the idea that Kressh, Sadow and Simus could still belong to the "best Sith Lords ever in combat" department, putting them on one pedestal with the same guy that butchered them all in the matter of seconds? Is my point reaching you, Lightsnake - or are you to pigheaded for it?

That aside: Nice redherring. If you could focus on constructing an argument, there would at least be a reason to you to hit the reply button - besides the +1 to your post count.

Cannon Fodder in comparison to the best, Lightsnake. Can you even read my post? And this is proven due to the fact that Sidious butchers them with apparent ease (in the movie). So, from the perspective of Sidious, they are just cannon fodder - are they not? So they are cannon fodder from the perspective of one that is on one level with some of the best swordsman ever (Mace and Yoda). Which means that the trio can not belong to the elite of duelling because they are an entire league below the people that belong on that pedestal. Otherwise their would be no way for Sidious to cut three of them down within seconds. Is that clear now or do you need a freaking picture?

See above. And sorry. Your lowbrow trailer trash language doesn't impress me, Lightsnake. Why? Because I don't give a flying ducky about the thoughts of uneducated punks like yourself, while you get a heart-attack if I toss some insult in your direction. Not the best position to start a flame war from, eh?

Hm. The "pathetic brat" has studied literature, in one of those great buildings called "universities". I know, you have never seen one from the inside, but those happen to be the buildings where you see some educated persons running around, while you're busy digging around in the garbage bags outside, searching for food.

Which might be the explanation for your inability to argue my point at all. "Narrator perspective" - lmao. You are aware of the fact that the narrator in the RotS Novel is a third person subjective narrator, right? What does that mean? Oh yes: That he has access to the thoughts and perceptions of all characters appearing in the story but nothing else. Which means that any single word in the novel spawns from the perception or thoughts of characters - which both can be flawed. You can either get that into your head or stop arguing anything related to literature here, given that this mode of narration is the most popular in written fiction nowadays.

There is no "omniscient" (as in "universal omniscient" wink

narrator there.

Borbarad

I love your uneducated view on the world. Everything is black or white (or "some of the best" or "noob" wink

. The moon is made of cheese and, wow, Nai must be a hypocrite. Now listen, you little buggar. You're still clearly not able to grasp the concept of logic.

I will give you a free lesson (as you won't be able to pay my hourly wage, even if you save all money that you could scrounge on the street in an entire month): As a hypocrite (and the same goes for the use of double-standards) I have to define "universal" laws and then don't adhere to them myself. My universal law is "characters can be wrong" - so in my world, you don't have to listen to everything that characters say. Your universal law seems to be "characters have to be right". I utilize this little fact by tossing character quotes at you - since you can't contradict them without being a hypocrite. I, however, are not bound by the rules you make for yourself. So I can question every character statement - even those I toss at you. I'm really sorry.

See...this is why I'm the smart guy here, and you are on the lower end of the food chain.

And what does it mean that they were added to the Council during war time, with the exception that they were replacing people, apparently better suited for the Council position, who died during the battles ? Nothing. That's right, Lightsnake. And why? Because people weren't elected to the Council based on skill - a fact established in the movies and the EU rather often .

It's a compilation of information gathered from other sources, Lightsnake. Therefore, it can't be used as a source - especially not to prove the validity of other sources. That's like quoting a Wikipedia article about a certain book, which quotes said book and then state "See. The book is right. Wikipedia says exactly the same". That should be understandable. But apparently it isn't. At least not for you, the guy who has the literature interpretation skills of a dead starfish.

You can toss poop on every SW character you can imagine and watch me laughing, since I don't give a crap about fictional persons in a fictional universe - unlike you. So feel free to hold yourself up to ridicule.

And, urm: Anybody trying what on the ancient Sith? Litering the place with straw man attempts because not being able to grasp a simple argument - like yourself? Oh well...I remember we had your uneducated ramblings going on at that point in time, which, of course, weren't even worth noticing and just answered if somebody needed a good laugh. That Gideon shoved his head right up your ass also didn't make it any better - it just turned the previous cavemen-like "Ugah Ugah Ugah" into the female-ish high-pitched "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE", without any change on the level of annoyance. That's why some people didn't find it entertaining any longer and left. *shrug*

And I wouldn't have yelled at anybody. Remember: You are the one that flies into a fury here because of special feelings towards wrinkled fictional characters (male ones, as I may add). I just wanted to point that out once more, so that coming generations of KMC members can see how perverted pathetic you are.

No, Lightsnake. The argument was if they are "some of the best" that "the order has ever produced". And Gideon supplied sources for them being on that level where exactly? They aren't, let's say, Dooku, who smokes Jedi Masters for fun or - well - Mace or Yoda. I don't see one source to put them on that pedestal - or saw one feat that would do the job. Save for the statement in the RotS novel, which means: Kenobi's thoughts. We can go on with arguing in circles if you like...It goes round and round and round and round and...

My point is that they are not on the high tier of Mace and Yoda aka "some of the best the order ever produced". Yes. And since you seem to agree with me, I wonder what the hell you are arguing here. Did you want to beat the world-record of the greatest amount of pointless posts ever to be written down in a KMC subforum? You're on a good way, I'd say.

Does he also speak faster then they can react, because he utters the "It's treason then" line after revealing his lightsaber. Is that also part of the choreography? Or do you want to tell me that Lucas simply messed that scene up and we should question the canon, which means - damn - that you are agreeing with me that, at certain times, even G-Canon can be questioned?! Which would, in turn, torpede the entire basis of your argument. Or, wait, is it just another attempt to justify your existance as Sidious fanboy?

I wonder - am I right or am I right? Your post simply doesn't allow any other conclusion, yet you have still hit the reply button? I'm still asking myself: W H Y ?

And Mace does react. He is the only being in the room that bothers to move when Sidious comes flying. Of course just to protect himself, instead of - I don't know - cut right through Fisto in and Kolar in order to stop the fatal strikes of Sidious? What a dick... roll eyes (sarcastic)

No. Apparently you are the one to decide canon here. No wait, you're not. You're the throws a tantrum, littering the forum with trash talk without even having a point, unless you want to dispute the entire RotS movie, because the novel fits your oppinion better. Really. Hilarious.

Oh. I'd cry, Lightsnake. But see: Insulting is not equal to "ad hominem". And I don't give a flying ducky if you are trying to be civil - or if you're attempting to insult me. The latter is quite funny, not only because I don't even feel remotely offended, no, but because you are so easy to provoke - which you are, sir. Which makes it quite entertaining for me to "dance around like the most intentionally insulting dick" until you explode again.
So, to be honest: You can express yourself in swearwords all day long, which just adds to my list of points why you suck in debates. I find that more entertaining than entering every thread I post in with a "I don't want to get involved in the argument but..." following by the next attempt to get some attention from me. Face it: Whatever you do, I don't care about it. Unless I can entertain myself by reacting - just like it happened right now and right here.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Seeing as how you constantly look retarded by calling me a troll without any evidence, and you get no support from the mods, you're the perfect definition of a troll. Thanks for making my case for me Nai.

Another funny troll post, Sexy. How about this:

We could again discuss how you are not the troll formerly known as TDTD and how you just share the same:

- first name
- AIM name
- date of birth
- university (I rofl'd)
- law school (I rofl'd)
- home city
- current locations
- religion

I mean, okay, Faunus has done it not only once but actually twice and then apparently dropped the issue out of boredom.

But what would be the point of listing those issues once again? Everybody knows who you are, David. But of course you can go on denying it, which is certainly amusing. Of course, not as amusing as your predictable reactions to you being called a "troll". Quite funny for a former member of SpecialHam.com, the community dedicated to pointless spamming, don't you think so?

Did you ever consider the possibility, that you're just here because it's easier to control a known troll than to figure out if the same troll came back with a new nickname? You are, at least, not as stupid as Nebaris. Or maybe the mods are just giving you a second chance, which anybody deserves, provided he adheres to his previous mistakes. Which you don't do. You're stuck in denial, which is rather pointless, given that nobody here believes that babble.

On a sidenote:

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You and LS are way too nice and passive about stupidity.

You are right. They are too nice and passive about stupidity, given that they are still talking to you, dipshit. We're the epitomes of generosity here and even tolerate utter failures like yourself. Isn't that nice? You can go on with the cheap entertainment now, Mr. B.

Borbarad

Originally posted by Gideon
But then I feel like the police officer who is telling a suspect to lower his weapon. I'm giving him a chance. If and when he doesn't, and I'm forced to shoot back, it'll be justified. I'm right and he's wrong.

I've seldomly laughed that hard, Gideon.
Your "peace offer" is a joke and the fact, that you aren't even able to notice that, shows, that you have retired (haha) to the higher spheres of self-adulation. Nontheless I will upvalue it with a reply...

Originally posted by Gideon
the problem is that we remember the time when you subscribed to the notion that Marka Ragnos was the most powerful Sith Lord/Force-user in the mythos and that Count Dooku was better than Sidious. I'm not certain if this is part of the routine or you are simply that reluctant to admit when you're wrong, but you are wrong about this.

In the fetid fleapit of Gideon's brain the projectionist of memory put on reel two. Recollection began to flicker. I wonder who you are talking about when saying "we", Gideon. Because I neither stated that Ragnos must be the most powerful Sith in the mythos, nor did I say that Dooku is better than Sidious. I argued that Sidious is not the most powerful Sith in the mythos and presented Ragnos (the ancient Sith) as alternative(s). I also said that Dooku could overcome Sidious in a duel (like Mace Windu) - is Mace Windu "better" (in the "more powerful" sense of the word) than Sidious?

So, provided that those "memories" you have, happen to be illusions produced by your own small brain - I really wonder how many people could possible share those memories with you. I might just thank you for presenting another straw man (and an appeal to majority) here, but that would be too easy, wouldn't it? I could also ask you to prove me wrong, but you would just come up with the idea that you've already done so. So I will simply declare that you are a fanboy, a poor loser and couldn't debate your way out of a box, because logic, to you, is just another five-letter-word starting with an L.

But, of course, we have something to expect from you, even though you are a fanboy, who tries to establish that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, based on the source material - beyond doubt. We just have to ignore the words of Leland Chee, who just tells us that "there will always be room for interpretation and debate" and those of Chris Cherasi, who tells us that everything aside from the movie is nothing but "interpretation" - more or less true. Because, when the LFL policy about the SW universe is concerned, and you need an analysis about the validity of the source material, Gideon is most certainly a higher ranking authority than LFL officials. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Give it up, Gideon. There is no way that you can establish anything in that regard. You can't prove anything because LFL doesn't want people to be able to do it and hence they construct sources in a way that leaves room for interpretation, debate and so on. That you don't want to accept that - because you are a fanboy - isn't my problem, Gideon. But I'll happily oppose you, as long as you're attempting to pass your oppinion down as fact.

And for the record: If you would argue that Ragnos is the most powerful Sith "beyond the shade of a doubt", I would also oppose you and site Sidious as candidate for the title. I simply don't like fanboys...

You are mistaken, Gideon. There never was a "Let's fellate Ragnos" campaign. There just was a "let's bash fanboys" campaign, with you and Lightsnake in the role of the main victims. And, let me check - gosh - you're still playing that very role, apparently without knowing it. Why? To state it with the, slightly modified, words of Clive Barker (Arabat): "Fanboys always had their part to play. Without them, how would we know, when we walked in the light of logic? It's only, when their ambitions become too grandiose, that they must be opposed, disciplined, sometimes - if necessary - brought down for a time. Then they will rise again, as they must." Got it?

And I wonder how you'd know what was going on at EoD, provided you had yourself booted out, being unable to stick to the - very simple - rules of the forum. Awww yes. In contrast to your own oppinion, you weren't banned because you didn't share the opinion of one admin. You were banned because being lectured on certain rules several times and still ignoring them. Fortunately, you apparently have figured out how to run your own forum now where you can bask in your fanboyism and contradiction of LFL officials, without having to face any opposition. Congratulations!

Here are the real facts: Neither did I argue the former nor the latter. And even if I had done it, you wouldn't be able to prove me wrong. It's not that I'm telling you that for almost 4 years now...Gosh. Actually, that's exactly what I do. I think you mental faculties are leaving much to desire, given you still haven't got the point. And if you think you can do the job - just go on and try, Gideon. I'm already looking forward to see you failing once again.

See. I told you, that you've never got a grasp on the concept of logical reasoning. I first have to lecture you on "double-standards" as it seems. To use a double-standard, I have to set up universal laws myself and then not adhere to them while expecting the same from others. What is my universal law here? Right. To me, every character statement is questionable (and so are the thoughts of characters). For you, apparently, every character statement is the absolute truth unless contradicted.
Now, use your brain, Gideon: Do I commit a double-standard when I question a character statement, even if I should use a statement of the same character? Because my maxim that they can be questioned. In fact your mindset makes tossing character quotes at you rather effective even when I don't expect that people won't argue against them. If you accept every character statement - why should I waste my time with complex thoughts if copy and paste is enough to defeat you?

The second thing is: We're talking about logical reasoning here, Gideon. Even if I contradict my own (previous) arguments, that doesn't say anything about the validity of my points. So, to try and attack my points by stating that they cotradicting other points I made, is just an ad hominem: Attacking the person instead of attacking the argument. That's logical reasoning - something you don't seem to be capable off.

No. I labeled it red herring because it was, gosh, a red herring. Why? Because it didn't have anything to do with the original argument. When you draw the attention away from the topic, that counts as a red herring. It's that easy.
You've still haven't come up with an answer as to why the highest form of canon depicts those Jedi not to show any reaction and why, despite of that, you still regard them as "some of the best ever" - a statement based on nothing but Obi-Wans thoughts that, on top of that, contradicts Lucas, who clearly describes a rather huge gap in ability between "the best" and the trio. Instead you tried to lure the attention to Sidious VS Yoda (who both didn't look to great in the office scene of their fight, did they?).

Borbarad

Lmfao. The biggest Sidious fanboy on the entire planet (yes, you supassed Lightsnake in that department) is lecturing me on objectivity? You want to lecture me on anything here, Gideon? I think, I have to confront you with your own words a bit, huh?

Oh snap, Gideon. Apparently, by your own words, my debating skill and my SW knowledge exceed your own. The last time I checked, this here was a forum to debate topics that are SW related. So, to make this clear: You are, by your own admission, inferior to me in both departments that do actually matter here. So what do you want to tell me? I know. You want to tell me that the only exception to the "Nai > Gideon" rule happens to be "every topic that involves Sidious", because you are a fanboy. Funny. Do you really think that one single person able to use their brains is going to buy that "logic"? I hope not.

And, gosh, sure I lack a certain objectivity in debates. Do I need to explain my user title to you once again since you still haven't figured out what it means? I will make myself clear once more, so that you might get it into your head. I argue for the sake of the argument. The content and the result both don't matter to me, Gideon. Have you ever seen me being friendly here in order to convince people of my thoughts? Holy shit - no. I oppose people to find out if they are capable of defending their own opposition and, if they aren't, teach them (the unfriendly way) how to make it better. Hence, once more, contradiction occuring in my posts regarding different topics isn't something that concerns me, which should be apparent - especially since it's logically irrelevant. And, gosh, my method works, given that even you have accepted some truths (like character statements = subject to falsification) that you did fight teeth and nail against in the past. I'm not here to defend my opinion.

And talking about "objectivity": Wasn't it you that ignored G-Canon material in form of the RotS script when it comes to the question if Yoda was superior to Sidious in lightsaber combat (disarming him)? Isn't it you who ignores the G-Canon movie when talking about the fights happening in the time of RotS, because the C-Canon parts of the novel give you more opportunities to fellate your favourite character? This while attempting to lecture me and Janus how we can't simply pick what we like from the source material?
Hell, Gideon. At least I, unlike you, don't feel the need to register on the official PotC board , just to spread Sidious fanboyism. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Nuff said, Mr. Alexian Cale? roll eyes (sarcastic)

On a sidenote: Wasn't it you who attempted to argue that Sidious is the most powerful, based on the comment in the RotS novel? I've proven you wrong. You've conceeded. Wasn't it you who tried to argue that Sidious is the most powerful based on the statement from the NEC. Who has contested the idea that Voren Na'al was stating the absolute truth there? Oh right...me. Who tried to deny that, just to conceed once again? Correct. That was you. So you are conceeding to me quitely, while I'm not here? Great. And then you try to oppose me when I visit again? Craving for attention much, Gideon?

And now? Now you're using an "out of universe source" quoting Vader's very own thoughts to prove that Sidious is the most powerful. Do I even need to come up with an argument, or can we just agree that you will fight over the quote just to conceed the point quitely during my next absence, saving us both some time?

Apparently you still didn't get the point. I'm not interested to argue with fanboys, because that doesn't get me anywhere - it's just cheap entertainment. Same as telling Sexy that he is "TDTD" or "a troll" and watch the results - which are rather hilarious. You have your obsession, and you will stick to it. Why would I try to fight something with logic that is illogical down to it's very foundation? And in your special case, I'm dealing with some wannabe-intelligent hillbilly that thinks he is smart. Reason? Right here:

Originally posted by Gideon
I live in southern Kentucky, which is well within the heartland of the inbred, the inept, and the insufferably stupid.

Maybe, you are the one sole intelligent person in the homeland of idiots. That may put you above your neighbours, your girlfriends (blood-related and others), friends and so on. Here? You don't hold the position of the smartest guy around, I'm afraid. Being the one-eyed man among the blind where you live might turn you into the superhero of your hometown - it still doesn't matter here. And, in contrary to what you may think, this here also isn't a popularity contest.

Evasion? What shall I evade here, with the exception of that big pile of bullshit you have produced? And diatribe? Well...telling you the truth is equal to commiting one (according to yourself), but see: It's not my fault that you suck.

And common ground for what, Gideon? Let me make it clear: You won't get approval from me. Neither for your Sidious fanboyism nor for your unfounded arrogance. And what can you do against that fact? Try to win a debate against me regarding your wrinkled loverboy? Bring it on, Gideon. You will get curbstomped, ridiculed and subjected to humiliation until I don't see any fun in that any longer and go away - leaving you little failure behind. That's your destiny.

But don't try to straw man me again. That doesn't work. Neither does your appeal to the non-existant majority or the lukewarm applause of your "friends". Nor ignoring LFL officials, the source material itself or - your most successful tactic to this point - repeating defeated arguments ad nauseam.

Have a nice day.

P.S.:
The last time we "debated" the issues (Sidious VS Ancient Sith / Sidious VS Dooku), you quit the debate, because being unable to reply without looking like a complete idiot. Then you tossed the (poor) excuse in, that you'd rather agree to disagree. Do you want to have that again, Gideon? Really? You know that you can't win so I really wonder what forces you to try it again and again?

Red Nemesis

You use this argument several times throughout... whatever that was... and I'm not entirely sure it is valid. I'd like to point out Kas'im, who was considered to be (among) the best of his era despite his limited Force technique. It seems to me that the trio's skill could be absolutely fantastic (which is something Kenobi is fit to evaluate) despite their inferior speed; Sidious' speed is prodigious. You're trying to forge a link between skill and speed that I don't see. Being slow compared with an incredibly powerful Sith lord doesn't disparage or discredit their ability at all.

Their lack of reaction can best be explained through another rationalization: EU speed. In the Bane books, a neophyte is said to move faster than the eye can see. Peak performers in the Golden age of the Jedi (and Sidious) would naturally move faster still. Furthermore, the audience wouldn't want to watch a blur, so the "window" to the SW universe just slowed down the exchange a bit. This explanation allows the maximum quantity of data to be admitted. It fits best with multiple sources and contradicts none. Why not?

If we accept the above paragraph as valid, the contradiction disappears. Kit and co. aren't slow, Sidious is fast. Mace and Sidious aren't moving like old men, they are essentially in slow mo.

thoughts?

Borbarad

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You use this argument several times throughout... whatever that was... and I'm not entirely sure it is valid. I'd like to point out Kas'im, who was considered to be (among) the best of his era despite his limited Force technique. It seems to me that the trio's skill could be absolutely fantastic (which is something Kenobi is fit to evaluate) despite their inferior speed; Sidious' speed is prodigious. You're trying to forge a link between skill and speed that I don't see. Being slow compared with an incredibly powerful Sith lord doesn't disparage or discredit their ability at all.

To the contrary, RN. Trying to link "skill" to "speed" has been done by Lightsnake and Gideon. And, in fact, speed is a part of your overall duelling ability.

The point is that the members of the trio are listed as some of the best duellist ever trained, and not sited as three beings with some of the best knowledge about lightsaber techniques ever. Of course speed is not everything in the duelling department - but it is part of the overall duelling ability.

And Kas'im was able to match Bane (who was definetely the more powerful when it came to force powers) in terms of speed and even managed to force Bane to retreat. If Kas'im had brought two other compatants with skill on par with his own and Bane would have killed all three of them in the matter of seconds - would somebody say that Kas'im was "one of the best duellists ever"?

Because it doesn't explain anything. Of course Sidious would move faster than it appears on screen. The point is that, as "some of the best ever trained" the Jedi standing there should be able to react to this attack, especially since Sidious speaks with them after revealing his weapon. He takes out his lightsaber and, after that, utters the "it's treason then" line. None of the Jedi feels the need to act here. And those beings, equipped with the ability of precognition and with superhuman speed and reflexes just stand there and get killed. Does that make any sense?

One could say that Sidious was far ahead of them in terms of force mastery and speed and that led to their deaths. The point is that if Sidious is so far ahead of them in that department, how can we assume that they are in Sidious league (= some of the best ever)? They are not.

...and Kit and Co. are nowhere close to him in terms of speed (not in his league), thereby get slaughtered and, because of that fact, clearly don't belong into the "best duellists ever trained" deparment, because they can't keep up with people belonging on that pedestal (Mace, Yoda).

Nephthys

Jesus Christ Nai.

Write enough?

Red Nemesis

That ends my position. Dueling includes skill and speed. I misread/couldn't recall the quote then.

What of the GL quote then? He explicitly labels them as the 'A' team (or some such). How can that be reconciled?

Gideon

Well, that was a fascinating lecture on arrogance that turned out to be a telling demonstration of it.

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww64/JessiahJ/Naiapologizes.jpg

Such a sudden shift from embarrassed humility to vengeful egotism.

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Borbarad
Another funny troll post, Sexy. How about this:

We could again discuss how you are not the troll formerly known as TDTD and how you just share the same:

- first name
- AIM name
- date of birth
- university (I rofl'd)
- law school (I rofl'd)
- home city
- current locations
- religion

I mean, okay, Faunus has done it not only once but actually twice and then apparently dropped the issue out of boredom.
Weird. The mods and anyone with a brain (Hint: not you) see no connection. Try again.

By everyone, do you mean yourself? The same guy that comes to this forum, gets his ass verbally raped by teenagers, leaves as a result of severe depression, comes back and does it all over again? And I don't spam nor have I ever spammed. Unless of course you're idiotic enough to continually accuse me of being a troll. Here's a hint though. When you try and stalk me, make sure you got the right guy, champ.

Nope I've talked to the mods. Have YOU ever considered that the reason anybody answers you on this forum anymore is for pure amusement? The fact that you're stupid enough to come back to this forum after all repeated ownage puts YOU in the same league with Nebaris, rather than me, who you keep hilariously accusing of being a clone.

ROFLROFL. So not only do you NOT know who I am(hint: keep stalking wrong people), but you consider yourself the "epitome of generosity". Aside from your hilarious House-like rants, you don't contribute anything to this forum other than repeated stupidity and unparalleled humor, which is why people still respond to you.

And really Nai, if you want to ATTEMPT to stalk the right person, i'll show you how it's done and you won't ever come back here again, I guarantee you that.

Gideon

You should probably let it go. Just report him and be done with it.

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Gideon
You should probably let it go. Just report him and be done with it.

I don't think he realizes the repercussions if he actually starts stalking me. There's many wonderful things you can do with a computer, the internet, and an IP address. Reporting him doesn't do anything but add fuel to the fire. He'll be back bitching rather quickly.

Gideon

The Almighty Ushgarak, in his dark wisdom, saw fit to bless us pathetic mortals with the Holy Ignore Function, to consign the infidels to oblivion. I haven't seen such blatant trolling in a long time; particularly since no one was insulting him, just asking for an explanation.

It was unwarranted. So, I've reported him, put him on ignore, and posted that lovely photo for everyone to see the vulnerable, wounded ego of Nai Fohl.

Dr McBeefington

Rofl. Fair enough. Lets try your ignore option.

Nephthys

You two suck.

Welkin Gunther

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And really Nai, if you want to ATTEMPT to stalk the right person, i'll show you how it's done and you won't ever come back here again, I guarantee you that.

...

Welkin Gunther

That one gave me chills.

Gideon

Originally posted by Nephthys
You two suck.

Do not be jealous of my awesomeness, child.

Nephthys

I'll be jealous of what I want, tyrant. uhuh

Borbarad

Originally posted by Nephthys
You two suck.

Because they reacted exactly as I predicted? Come on...

Let's just check it: Sexy goes on denying that he is TDTD and threatens me (insulting Faunus and Lightsnake in the process, who did see a link between him and TDTD and - as a result - can't have any brains).

And Gideon? Even better. I hoped that he would post the text or a scan of that particular PM. Why?

He just provided proof himself that I attempted to settle the conflict between us via PM, that I did show some nice amount of humility (which he is entirely incapable of) in order to archive that and that I didn't want any futher personal insults going on.

What did Gideon do? Instead of answering that very PM, he tried to duke it out in the public once more with his oh-so-innocent "asking for an explanation" as he called it. Let's ignore how he called me stupid and called anything I typed up "shit" and demanded to give in to his fanboyism - this is just Gideon's friendly way to ask for further input, as we all should know. Not any kind of provocation - especially taking that very PM he posted here into consideration. And now he's even attempting to use this peace offer against me. I think the (delusional) idea that he could own me hurt me on a personal level, being unable to defeat me in a debate, was just too strong for his ego to resist.

Suffice to point out that he, rather than accepting the challenge I offered here - knowing that he will lose anyway -, has chosen the fastest way to retreat, without being forced to admit that he wasted the last 3.5 years with his Sidious fanboyism. On top of that, he also put me on ignore, so I might be spared further attempts of Sidious worshipping. I win. Final defeat of Gideon? Right here. You may want to bookmark it. wink