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the elder vs the new god. no space gem. they fight in outer space.

Black Racer

If Flash can beat the Black Racer then the Runner can run rings around him.

Runner run's circles around him.

Originally posted by manx422
Black Racer

Runner everytime..

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
If Flash can beat the Black Racer then the Runner can run rings around him. Which issue did Flash beat up the Black Racer in?

I need scans.

No1 said "beat up".

he was gaining on both the flashes

But still ended up losing in the end.

Besides elders are completely immune to death, the black racer is completely powerless against the runner.

Runner wins in a spitestomp.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
No1 said "beat up". WELL . .. THIS IS A FIGHT.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
But still ended up losing in the end.

Besides elders are completely immune to death, the black racer is completely powerless against the runner.

Runner wins in a spitestomp. Untrue. Because it's Death that grants that.
However, this is Death coming for him.

Originally posted by Juntai
Untrue. Because it's Death that grants that.
However, this is Death coming for him.


Good point. Death still needs to catch him, tho. Hehe.

Black Racer stopped for darkseid
he was gaining

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Good point. Death still needs to catch him, tho. Hehe. If he can gain on Flash, he can gain on Runner.
If you want to, we can compare Runner and Flash feats.

He wasn't gaining fast enough.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
He wasn't gaining fast enough. lmao.

Seriously, Runner would run rings around Flash and if the Black Racer couldn't do that, then the Runner will easily outrun him.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Seriously, Runner would run rings around Flash and if the Black Racer couldn't do that, then the Runner will easily outrun him. Lets compare Runner's feats to Flashes then?
I'll let you know now, that's a losing battle.

Originally posted by Juntai
Lets compare Runner's feats to Flashes then?
I'll let you know now, that's a losing battle.

I bet you're gonna say "he outran death"

Originally posted by Juntai
If he can gain on Flash, he can gain on Runner.
If you want to, we can compare Runner and Flash feats. How? Do you know how fast Flash was running?

What does feats have do with anything here?

Flash has had trouble running at light speed in recent years and even needed major amping to reach light speed instantly.

Speedwise, Runner has run rings around the Surfer who has shown that he could move light years in seconds (thus making him at least millions of times the speed of light).

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I bet you're gonna say "he outran death" I bet you're going to keep dodging the fact that Runner having the loyal support in vs threads he has is a complete joke. His two major feats, involve beating a Surfer that was a holding back due to Runner's 'likable' power, a luxury he doesn't have here, and then losing to Thanos.

Wait, he ripped Thanos chair apart.
Beating an inanimate object in a fair battle....clearly that means he's one of the toughest characters on the forum.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Speedwise, Runner has run rings around the Surfer who has shown that he could move light years in seconds (thus making him at least millions of times the speed of light).

Originally posted by kgkg

What does feats have do with anything here?
I believe it's called 'evidence'.
Flash is faster, period.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Speedwise, Runner has run rings around the Surfer who has shown that he could move light years in seconds (thus making him at least millions of times the speed of light). Conjecture, much?
lmao.
Save that for the less intelligent posters.

Originally posted by Juntai
I believe it's called 'evidence'.
So we use go by feat war by using best feats ever by said characters and ignoring recent showings?

not by recent showing

Originally posted by Juntai
Conjecture, much?
lmao.
Save that for the less intelligent posters.

Where's the conjecture here.

He's been seen on-panel to run rings around the surfer.

The Surfer has been show on-panel to travel light years in seconds.

One second per light year makes you around: 31536000x the speed of light.

at kmc we use character's top feats

Originally posted by kgkg
So we use go by feat war by using best feats ever by said characters and ignoring recent showings?

not by recent showing You trying to pick out a recent showing that's lower doesn't make others less valid here.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Where's the conjecture here.

He's been seen on-panel to run rings around the surfer.

The Surfer has been show on-panel to travel light years in seconds.

One second per light year makes you around: 31536000x the speed of light. Start at the beginning of the post.
The first letter, to the last.
Complete conjecture.

If you don't see how piss poor that logic is, I can't help you.
Go debate with Quan Chi or something.
I'll continue this with KGKG, maybe.
His posts are much more entertaining.
Well, depending on perspective.

Originally posted by manx422
at kmc we use character's top feats We don't. Read the rules

Originally posted by kgkg
We don't. Read the rules We use them at' optimum.'
Definition as of dictionary.com..."the greatest degree or best result obtained or obtainable"




Bringing up the times Flash 'struggles', or 'fails', to achieve his capacity as shown on panel in various other instances certainly doesn't qualify at that.

Originally posted by Juntai
Start at the beginning of the post.
The first letter, to the last.
Complete conjecture.

If you don't see how piss poor that logic is, I can't help you.
Go debate with Quan Chi or something.
I'll continue this with KGKG, maybe.
His posts are much more entertaining.
Well, depending on perspective.


LOL, even when it is stated on panel "several seconds and several light years later"? THAT'S conjecture?

Wow. Tough crowd here.

Best to reserve your own conjecture til you've seen the on-panel evidence for yourself.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
LOL, even when it is stated on panel "several seconds and several light years later"? THAT'S conjecture?

Wow. Tough crowd here.

Best to reserve your own conjecture til you've seen the on-panel evidence for yourself. lmao.

Originally posted by Juntai
You trying to pick out a recent showing that's lower doesn't make others less valid here. It does if he is unable to do those feat than he can no longer achieve those speed.

Especially when witter clearly put limitations on Flash's speed.

If the writers says he can't than he can't no point bringing his past feat when there are several newer feats which contradict those feats anway

We go by recent feats at KMC old feats are valid. Yes. But if the character is unable to do it than those feats they are no longer valid.

It's been many years since flash have shown with speed limitation some as low as Gorilla Grodd mind being faster than Wally

Originally posted by Juntai
lmao.

Well, concession accepted then.

I understand what Surfer is capable of at times. I recall the seconds and light-years later line. I believe I have that comic.. Annihilation?

Your conjecture begins, when you compare that speed, to him getting coasting through space at "N" speed, and his ensuing tussle with Runner.

That's like saying Green Arrow is faster than light-speed, because he hit a speedster with an arrow. Understand?

Now run along. You're clearly in over your head here.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Well, concession accepted then. Not quite.

Originally posted by kgkg
It does if he is unable to do those feat than he can no longer achieve those speed.

Especially when witter clearly put limitations on Flash's speed.

If the writers says he can't than he can't no point bringing his past feat when there are several newer feats which contradict those feats anway

We go by recent feats at KMC old feats are valid. Yes. But if the character is unable to do it than those feats they are no longer valid.

It's been many years since flash have shown with speed limitation some as low as Gorilla Grodd mind being faster than Wally Do you have evidence they are invalid then?
Something that rubbed them from continuity?


Does that mean when Dr Strange is in any thread against a magician, they can simply turn his powers off, like an amatuer did in The Oath?

Originally posted by Juntai
I understand what Surfer is capable of at times. I recall the seconds and light-years later line. I believe I have that comic.. Annihilation?

Your conjecture begins, when you compare that speed, to him getting coasting through space at "N" speed, and his ensuing tussle with Runner.

That's like saying Green Arrow is faster than light-speed, because he hit a speedster with an arrow. Understand?

Now run along. You're clearly in over your head here.

So you're saying that he'd be moving WAY below optimum speed while traveling thru space and would also move at WAY below optimum speed while in combat and that any conclusion based on him moving at close to top speed while traveling or in combat is simple conjecture and should be disregarded?

Wow. Your logic rocks! You SUUUREE showed me. Lol.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
So you're saying that he'd be moving WAY below optimum speed while traveling thru space and would also move at WAY below optimum speed while in combat and that any conclusion based on him moving at close to top speed while traveling or in combat is simple conjecture and should be disregarded?

Wow. Your logic rocks! You SUUUREE showed me. Lol. It's conjecture because you're extrapolating.

Originally posted by Juntai
I understand what Surfer is capable of at times. I recall the seconds and light-years later line. I believe I have that comic.. Annihilation?

Your conjecture begins, when you compare that speed, to him getting coasting through space at "N" speed, and his ensuing tussle with Runner.

That's like saying Green Arrow is faster than light-speed, because he hit a speedster with an arrow. Understand?

Now run along. You're clearly in over your head here.

According to Barry Allen and Final Crisis, Black Racer can't go beyond light speed currently.

That means Runner wins.

Originally posted by Juntai
It's conjecture because you're extrapolating.

True, there was a little extrapolation involved in determning the speed of which the Surfer was moving at the time. However, ALMOST all feats become extrapolation if we follow these strict sets of guidelines.

Ex: The only reason we thought that the Black Racer was fast was because he caught up to the Flash. However, how fast do we REALLY know the Flash to be running at that time? Was there any indication that he was moving at higher than light speed at all? We had to extrapolate data based on the feats of the Flash to determine this.

Also, we know that the top speed of the surfer is easily millions of times the speed of light. Extrapolation or not, what makes more sense, that he'd be traveling at much much much much much lower than this at combat or cruising speed? Common sense applies, too, yknow.

Originally posted by Juntai
What you're suggesting is throwing away feats every time a character changes writers. That's bullshit and you know it. They all handle them differently. It doesn't make previous in-continuity events any less substantial.
Like, when the writer had Superman fail to speed over and catch a bullet, suddenly he can't do that anymore? lmao.

OH, BUT ITS SUPPORTED AGAIN ON PANEL.
In Amazons Attack. He couldn't stop a whole group of people from getting gunned down!
Difference is Superman inability to catch bullet is PIS especially when he has done it often before. Are you refereeing to the instance where Superman failed to catch multiple machine gun fire that killed hostages? Some writers have Superman earth speed lower than some fans would claims , and other have put restriction to how fast he could move due to environmental damage it could cause. Could explain why he would have failed.

What are his recent biggest feat?

I don't mind one or two cases of writers failing to realize something. But when you have entire arcs showing limitation it's hard to overlook them.

Originally posted by kgkg
Difference is Superman inability to catch bullet is PIS especially when he has done it often before.
End of debate.

Originally posted by Juntai
End of debate. Not really but whatever float your boat.

If anyone can answer this would be great. thx

Originally posted by Enyalus
According to Barry Allen and Final Crisis, Black Racer can't go beyond light speed currently. Wrong

Originally posted by Enyalus
According to Barry Allen and Final Crisis, Black Racer can't go beyond light speed currently.

That means Runner wins. IIRC it was Jay who said that.

Originally posted by Juntai
If he can gain on Flash, he can gain on Runner.
If you want to, we can compare Runner and Flash feats.

Superman's feats rival and surpass that of Galactus, Tiamut and Odin to name a few yet does that mean regular supes beats them? No and that way of thinking is silly. Supes gets WTFpwned by all of those guys even with a sun amp let alone regular supes. The other fact which makes your logic unsound is the many more appearances that Flash has over Runner and thus will obviously have more feats. Yet somehow this proves what exactly? That flash is superior in the speed department.. Hardly.

Isn't the Black Runner created to catch Speedsters, or am I confusing this?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Isn't the Black Runner created to catch Speedsters, or am I confusing this? black racer is death(new gods), black flash catches speedsters

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Superman's feats rival and surpass that of Galactus, Tiamut and Odin to name a few yet does that mean regular supes beats them? No and that way of thinking is silly. Supes gets WTFpwned by all of those guys even with a sun amp let alone regular supes. The other fact which makes your logic unsound is the many more appearances that Flash has over Runner and thus will obviously have more feats. Yet somehow this proves what exactly? That flash is superior in the speed department.. Hardly. If Runner's showings don't match up to Flashs', then it's certainly true. Otherwise all you have to go on is hopes and dreams that Runner is faster, which seems to be the case.

Originally posted by Nihilist
black racer is death(new gods), black flash catches speedsters
Yeah, but aren't they all the concept of death?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yeah, but aren't they all the concept of death? Yes.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yeah, but aren't they all the concept of death? *edit*

Juntai beat me to it

So BR=BF?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Superman's feats rival and surpass that of Galactus, Tiamut and Odin

Erm lets not get carried away here Kurupt. Sure supermans feats are the top of the pile if u count "He saved the omniverse" and "defeated so and so" as feats in and of themselves. However we u bring the propercontext into it u find out that his performance of those "feats" depended on external circumstances and plot and hence those instances do not come close to justifying a power placement even remotely close to the likes of Odin let alone Tiamut or Galactus.Usually such instances dont tell us much about a characters powerlevel at all.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Erm lets not get carried away here Kurupt. Sure supermans feats are the top of the pile if u count "He saved the omniverse" and "defeated so and so" as feats in and of themselves. However we u bring the propercontext into it u find out that his performance of those "feats" depended on external circumstances and plot and hence those instances do not come close to justifying a power placement even remotely close to the likes of Odin let alone Tiamut or Galactus.Usually such instances dont tell us much about a characters powerlevel at all.
Just say the PIS

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Just say the PIS say what?

I meant to say POS
Plot of Story, or w.e. is stands for.

Edit

Originally posted by Juntai
What you're suggesting is throwing away feats every time a character changes writers. That's bullshit and you know it. They all handle them differently. It doesn't make previous in-continuity events any less substantial.
Like, when the writer had Superman fail to speed over and catch a bullet, suddenly he can't do that anymore? lmao.

OH, BUT ITS SUPPORTED AGAIN ON PANEL.
In Amazons Attack. He couldn't stop a whole group of people from getting gunned down!

You're acting like someone's trying to pull feats from the 60s and 70s, like Thor and Hulk fans do.

Flash's bigger feats, are all still fairly recent in memory, and are still continuity.
Unless I'm mistaken, he's talking about tossing out feats that no longer fit in with how the characters being written rather than tossing them out because of the portrayals of a single writer. That's probably why he was asking for recent feats of the Flash rather than other feats from the same writer.

It's not that big of a stretch if you think about it, Nova's first appearance with the entirety of the Nova force at his disposal had him knocking Firelord and Airwalker across the solar system wtih a single blast simultaneously and Supernova's showings with the Full Nova Force had him taking on Thor, Quasar, Firelord, and others at the same time, but Richard's showings throughout and after Annihilation didn't really put the Nova Force anywhere near that level. So which showings do you consider more valid in a discussion about Nova w/full Nova Force, the old stuff that's still in continuity or the more recent showings in and after Annihilation? Did Surfer really own someone who was powerful enough to take on Thor, Quasar, and Firelord(or even just Firelord and Airwalker) at the same time?

Or maybe Richard doesn't know what the hell he's doing and Supernova had greater ability to use the power.

Black Racer wins btw.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Or maybe Richard doesn't know what the hell he's doing and Supernova had greater ability to use the power.

Black Racer wins btw.
Again, in NOVA'S(Richard Rider's) first appearance with the full Nova Force he blasted Firelord and Airwalker for a loop and across the solar system with one shot. Would you say that he seemed that powerful in Annihilation? Did Surfer really take a shot that was THAT powerful when Nova unloaded with a full gravimatetric pulse(or however you spell it)?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Unless I'm mistaken, he's talking about tossing out feats that no longer fit in with how the characters being written rather than tossing them out because of the portrayals of a single writer. That's probably why he was asking for recent feats of the Flash rather than other feats from the same writer.

It's not that big of a stretch if you think about it, Nova's first appearance with the entirety of the Nova force at his disposal had him knocking Firelord and Airwalker across the solar system wtih a single blast simultaneously and Supernova's showings with the Full Nova Force had him taking on Thor, Quasar, Firelord, and others at the same time, but Richard's showings throughout and after Annihilation didn't really put the Nova Force anywhere near that level. So which showings do you consider more valid in a discussion about Nova w/full Nova Force, the old stuff that's still in continuity or the more recent showings in and after Annihilation? Did Surfer really own someone who was powerful enough to take on Thor, Quasar, and Firelord(or even just Firelord and Airwalker) at the same time?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again, in NOVA'S(Richard Rider's) first appearance with the full Nova Force he blasted Firelord and Airwalker for a loop and across the solar system with one shot. Would you say that he seemed that powerful in Annihilation. Did Surfer really take a shot that was THAT powerful when Nova unloaded with a full gravimatetric pulse(or however you spell it)?

It's obvious the writers are chosing not to give Richard the power that theoretically should be his to command. Nova Force is getting a downgrade. Hell, the Worldmind was shit scared of Annihilus during Annihilation.

It's obvious he was on the lower end of the power spectrum recently.

Originally posted by Juntai
If Runner's showings don't match up to Flashs', then it's certainly true. Otherwise all you have to go on is hopes and dreams that Runner is faster, which seems to be the case.

You avoided what I said though Juntai... Don't superman's feats surpass that of Odin, Galactus, & Tiamut etc etc? So, does that mean he beats them in a fight using that same logic you tried to use here? Just because somebody has more feats doesn't mean they win a vs. battle which I have just proven here.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
It's obvious the writers are chosing not to give Richard the power that theoretically should be his to command. Nova Force is getting a downgrade. Hell, the Worldmind was shit scared of Annihilus during Annihilation.

It's obvious he was on the lower end of the power spectrum recently.
And by the same token, Flash's writers aren't currently acknowledging the same level of speed/power that they used to. Neither received any kind of official downgrade, they just started writing both differently. So which feats are more valid for Flash and Nova(as well as everyone the square off against) in vs threads, the old stuff or the new?

Originally posted by Naija boy
Erm lets not get carried away here Kurupt. Sure supermans feats are the top of the pile if u count "He saved the omniverse" and "defeated so and so" as feats in and of themselves. However we u bring the propercontext into it u find out that his performance of those "feats" depended on external circumstances and plot and hence those instances do not come close to justifying a power placement even remotely close to the likes of Odin let alone Tiamut or Galactus.Usually such instances dont tell us much about a characters powerlevel at all.

I totally agree but was only trying to make a point that you can't just go by who has more feats and better feats. Supes has way more and better feats then Tiamut but Tiamut could wtf pwn him even with a sunamp

Originally posted by xJLxKing
So BR=BF? It wasn't the case before there have been many incarnations of death and these two were thought to be different

But FC shows that Black Racer is indeed the same entity as Black Flash.

as noted by Wally here:
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/248/49518144.th.jpg

Hope that answers your question.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Erm lets not get carried away here Kurupt. Sure supermans feats are the top of the pile if u count "He saved the omniverse" and "defeated so and so" as feats in and of themselves. However we u bring the propercontext into it u find out that his performance of those "feats" depended on external circumstances and plot and hence those instances do not come close to justifying a power placement even remotely close to the likes of Odin let alone Tiamut or Galactus.Usually such instances dont tell us much about a characters powerlevel at all.

Can't really spell taht any clearer than that people. But i'm willing to bet the house they they still don't understand.

Originally posted by kgkg
It wasn't the case before there have been many incarnations of death and these two were thought to be different

But FC shows that Black Racer is indeed the same entity as Black Flash.

as noted by Wally here:
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/248/49518144.th.jpg

Hope that answers your question.
Yeah, so why is this up for debate.

If Bf and BR are the same person/entity then they win.

Black Flash was clearly faster then Flash. By a good margin.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yeah, so why is this up for debate.

If Bf and BR are the same person/entity then they win.

Black Flash was clearly faster then Flash. By a good margin. Have you read the debates? this is not even about Black Racer vs Runner

Originally posted by kgkg
Have you read the debates? this is not even about Black Racer vs Runner
You mean the one with Juntai, Ninja boy..etc? Yes, I have

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yeah, so why is this up for debate.

If Bf and BR are the same person/entity then they win.

Black Flash was clearly faster then Flash. By a good margin.
It's up for debate because Flash recently stated that Death can't go lightspeed.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
You mean the one with Juntai, Ninja boy..etc? Yes, I have

Ehem Ehem, are u blind? Its Naija boy

Originally posted by Naija boy
Ehem Ehem, are u blind? Its Naija boy
My bad, my bad!! I always mistake your name for ninja


His opinion

Originally posted by xJLxKing
His opinion
Unless I'm mistaken, he called it a little known fact(or something to that effect).

Originally posted by darthgoober
Unless I'm mistaken, he called it a little known fact(or something to that effect).
What issue is that?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
What issue is that?
I'm not sure, I've just sen the scan(though now that I think of it I need to check that issue out). Ask Eny, I'm pretty sure he's the one who posted it.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
What issue is that?
FC #3

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/491/fc3o.th.jpg

Another important note is that flash were escaping The Black Racer by running so many thousand times faster than "sound".

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9080/fc32.th.jpg

Originally posted by kgkg
Another important note is that flash were escaping The Black Racer by running so many thousand times faster than "sound".

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9080/fc32.th.jpg
Isn't that just the start after the saw the bullet? They kept increasing speed.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's up for debate because Flash recently stated that Death can't go lightspeed. False because he did go beyond light speed it.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Isn't that just the start after the saw the bullet? They kept increasing speed. Yes. They escaped by accelerating toward the speed of light.

Originally posted by iceman24567
False because he did go beyond light speed it.
When was he clocked at FTL speeds?

Originally posted by kgkg
Yes. They escaped by accelerating toward the speed of light.
I never saw them escape. He was going for DS.

Originally posted by darthgoober
When was he clocked at FTL speeds? I posted the scans he breached the sigularity as did the Flashes that = flt

Originally posted by iceman24567
I posted the scans he breached the sigularity as did the Flashes that = flt
Or it equals an abstract concept of death that can fly, turn intagible, and "always gets his man" not being affected by the gravity, or a writer just not thinking things through. You're using conjecture to prove that he CAN go FTL when it was outright STATED that he couldn't. It's not a very strong case for you...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Or it equals an abstract concept of death that can fly not being affected by gravity, or a writer just not thinking things through. You're using conjecture to prove that he CAN go FTL when it was outright STATED that he couldn't. It's not a very strong case for you... Yeah ok goober the scan speaks for it's self Barry states they were running faster than they ever had and Wally says he's still gaining then they ALL breach the singularity it's right there on panel. I guess my case is weak if you want to ignore all of what was said and done on panel but whatever your just as stubborn as me

Originally posted by darthgoober
Or it equals an abstract concept of death that can fly, turn intagible, and "always gets his man" not being affected by the gravity, or a writer just not thinking things through. You're using conjecture to prove that he CAN go FTL when it was outright STATED that he couldn't. It's not a very strong case for you...

This is often true...

Except Wally and Barry gave us "the readers" the impression that they were moving FTL

Black Racer, ftw.

As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence that Runner is capable of breaching time itself, and running to a point in time where everything (in the literal sense) ceases to exist. That said, what the hell is Runner going to do? Because he certainly won't be replicating Wally's feat.

Here's another little 'Flash Fact' for ya: It was stated that BF/BR's mere presence in 'our' dimension completely mucks with time itself. Thus, anyone who isn't well adept with the speed force, slows to an absolute stop.

Also, it certainly seems to me like the Flashs'/BR/BF were moving at superluminal speeds:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1594828_br1.jpg

Originally posted by iceman24567
Yeah ok goober the scan speaks for it's self Barry states they were running faster than they ever had and Wally says he's still gaining then they ALL breach the singularity it's right there on panel. I guess my case is weak if you want to ignore all of what was said and done on panel but whatever your just as stubborn as me
I'm not making any claims in regards to Black Racer/Flash's speed, I've already pointed out that I haven't even read the issue yet. I answered why it was up for debate and you said that I was wrong. I asked when he was clocked at FTL speeds and you gave what you interpreted as evidence that PROVED I was wrong(which is funny because all I did was answer as to what everyone else was debating) so I gave a couple of other potential scenarios.

As far as I'm concerned, one way or another you're disregarding what's been portrayed as being canon. Feel free to disregard whichever writer you want depending on your own personal taste and opinion, but saying that people are outright "lying", "wrong", or "unreasonable" just because they've chosen to acknowledge the work of another writer from the same damn arc seems more than a little arrogant no matter WHICH side you agree with.

Originally posted by Galan007

Also, it certainly seems to me like the Flashs'/BR/BF were moving at superluminal speeds:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1594828_br1.jpg They say they have to reach superluminal speeds, which means they are at max, lightspeed in the scan, and BR is going slower than that.

Originally posted by Mindset
They say they have to reach superluminal speeds, which means they are at max, lightspeed in the scan, and BR is going slower than that. The Flashs' had to reach superluminal speeds to accomplish their goal. They accomplished their goal. They were going superluminal. Black Racer's daggers were nearly touching them in the fourth panel. He was going superluinal as well. End of story.

ermmhappy

Originally posted by Galan007
The Flashs' had to reach superluminal speeds to accomplish their goal. They accomplished their goal. They were going superluminal. Black Racer's daggers were nearly touching them in the fourth panel. He was going superluinal as well. End of story.

ermmhappy

Darkseid's beams were nearly touching them, too. Supes outmanuevers them easily. Does Supes' speed = Flashes tapping the Speed Force to the limit?

Originally posted by Galan007
Black Racer, ftw.

As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence that Runner is capable of breaching time itself, and running to a point in time where everything (in the literal sense) ceases to exist. That said, what the hell is Runner going to do? Because he certainly won't be replicating Wally's feat.

Here's another little 'Flash Fact' for ya: It was stated that BF/BR's mere presence in 'our' dimension completely mucks with time itself. Thus, anyone who isn't well adept with the speed force, slows to an absolute stop.

Also, it certainly seems to me like the Flashs'/BR/BF were moving at superluminal speeds:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1594828_br1.jpg

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You avoided what I said though Juntai... Don't superman's feats surpass that of Odin, Galactus, & Tiamut etc etc? So, does that mean he beats them in a fight using that same logic you tried to use here? Just because somebody has more feats doesn't mean they win a vs. battle which I have just proven here. If you're going to suggest that a character is faster than Flash, or stronger than Hulk. You need evidence to back up this notion.

Originally posted by Juntai
If you're going to suggest that a character is faster than Flash, or stronger than Hulk. You need evidence to back up this notion.
Runner crossed galaxies in...a few minutes' time at most when he thought Moondragon was in trouble. He didn't have the gem at this time.

The scan is in his respect thread...But, I didn't want to be TP-like and link you to it.

Originally posted by Galan007
The Flashs' had to reach superluminal speeds to accomplish their goal. They accomplished their goal. They were going superluminal. Black Racer's daggers were nearly touching them in the fourth panel. He was going superluinal as well. End of story.

ermmhappy
Unless they lost him the moment they went superluinal. Wally's statement sounded like they hadn't quite hit their mark yet to me.

I'm not saying that's definitely the case because it could also be interpreted the other way(I refuse to take a solid stance until DC or the writer somehow clarifies the contradiction), I was just putting another POV out there.

Originally posted by Galan007
The Flashs' had to reach superluminal speeds to accomplish their goal. They accomplished their goal. They were going superluminal. Black Racer's daggers were nearly touching them in the fourth panel. He was going superluinal as well. End of story.

ermmhappy

Originally posted by darthgoober
Unless they lost him the moment they went superluinal. Wally's statement sounded like they hadn't quite hit their mark yet to me.

I'm not saying that's definitely the case because it could also be interpreted the other way(I refuse to take a solid stance until DC or the writer somehow clarifies the contradiction), I was just putting another POV out there. I understand that.

But why would it be specifically stated that the Flashs' had to reach superluminal speeds for their goal to be accomplished, if superluminal speeds aren't what was reached when said goal was carried out?

Originally posted by Galan007
I understand that.

But why would it be specifically stated that the Flashs' had to reach superluminal speeds for their goal to be accomplished, if superluminal speeds aren't what was reached when said goal was carried out? So they were going 1 mph faster than lightspeed and BR was going 1 mph slower than lightspeed.

Originally posted by Mindset
So they were going 1 mph faster than lightspeed and BR was going 1 mph slower than lightspeed.

Originally posted by Mindset
So they were going 1 mph faster than lightspeed and BR was going 1 mph slower than lightspeed. g_twitch

Surely there has to be a better scan that shows that the Flashes can go superluminal than this. It wasn't stated on-panel in this scan that they went faster than light at all.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Surely there has to be a better scan that shows that the Flashes can go superluminal than this. It wasn't stated on-panel in this scan that they went faster than light at all. To breach the singularity Darkseid was in they had to go beyond light speed that was stated on panel they even phazed right threw his gay ass

Originally posted by iceman24567
To breach the singularity Darkseid was in they had to go beyond light speed that was stated on panel they even phazed right threw his gay ass

Well, to ppl who haven't read this issue, all it shows is DS shooting a gun, them running past Superman and DS being scared of some entity in the end. Would be nice if more pages were shown (or at least a link to them) so that those who haven't read the issue could see that 1) there was a singularity involved. 2) They were able to achieve w/e goal it was that needed them to go superluminal.

Originally posted by iceman24567
they had to go right through his gay ass

And DS loved every second of it.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Well, to ppl who haven't read this issue, all it shows is DS shooting a gun, them running past Superman and DS being scared of some entity in the end. Would be nice if more pages were shown (or at least a link to them) so that those who haven't read the issue could see that 1) there was a singularity involved. 2) They were able to achieve w/e goal it was that needed them to go superluminal. I'm away from my comics i only have few scans on my photobucket account you can wait 3 days i could show you

Originally posted by iceman24567
I'm away from my comics i only have few scans on my photobucket account you can wait 3 days i could show you

3 days??? Boooo! I don't think this thread would still be here in 3 days.

Go support DC comics by buying it!

Bah! My budget only covers Marvel comics! I've got enough pricey hobbies alrdy.

Originally posted by kgkg
Go support DC comics by buying it!
I wouldn't own Final Crisis if they paid me.

That's how badly it sucked.

Final Crisis was nice. The drawing, the story. It was confusing, but I liked it. Especially FC:Revelation

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Final Crisis was nice. The drawing, the story. It was confusing, but I liked it. Especially FC:Revelation
FC: Revelation was a tie-in. Like Superman Beyond. And a lot of the tie-ins were great. The main 7 issue storyline though? Blowtastic. And its not because, "oh no, Eny, you just didn't understand Morrison's complexity and the metafiction!!" And to anyone holding that opinion, I say piss off. I understood it just fine. If I can read and understand Aristotle's Metaphysics in Greek and write 30-page arguments against Locke's "I Know Not What," then I think I'm perfectly qualified for comprehending a freakin' comic book.

Which I did. And it sucked.

I think you just didn't understand it, bro.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/custom_avatars/avatar83719_3.gif

Originally posted by Enyalus
I wouldn't own Final Crisis if they paid me.

That's how badly it sucked. People have mixed feelings about it.

I found it OK.

I just don't understand those calling it the "best arc in decades"

Originally posted by Mindset
I think you just didn't understand it, bro.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/custom_avatars/avatar83719_3.gif
*sigh*

Ya got me...didn't want to admit it. Bruised ego and all.

Originally posted by Enyalus
FC: Revelation was a tie-in. Like Superman Beyond. And a lot of the tie-ins were great. The main 7 issue storyline though? Blowtastic. And its not because, "oh no, Eny, you just didn't understand Morrison's complexity and the metafiction!!" And to anyone holding that opinion, I say piss off. I understood it just fine. If I can read and understand Aristotle's Metaphysics in Greek and write 30-page arguments against Locke's "I Know Not What," then I think I'm perfectly qualified for comprehending a freakin' comic book.

Which I did. And it sucked.
Well they they were Ties in and like you said most of them were good. I didn't know about the ties in the first time I read the FC and it was so confusing.

Any ways, we all have our opinions but personally I liked FC: 3, 6, and 7. They were good. The drawing, story..etc was nice in all of them but 3 6 & 7 are where the story picked up.

I liked the artwork, that's about it.

But I must not have understood it, only explanation.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Surely there has to be a better scan that shows that the Flashes can go superluminal than this. It wasn't stated on-panel in this scan that they went faster than light at all. Some flash ie Wally can and have gone FTL. The debate was if BC could , he has shown in the fast that he could as well.

Even if he could go over FTL doesn't mean they are faster than the Runner.

Originally posted by kgkg
It does if he is unable to do those feat than he can no longer achieve those speed.

Especially when witter clearly put limitations on Flash's speed.

If the writers says he can't than he can't no point bringing his past feat when there are several newer feats which contradict those feats anway

We go by recent feats at KMC old feats are valid. Yes. But if the character is unable to do it than those feats they are no longer valid.

It's been many years since flash have shown with speed limitation some as low as Gorilla Grodd mind being faster than Wally

Originally posted by Enyalus
Darkseid's beams were nearly touching them, too. Supes outmanuevers them easily. Does Supes' speed = Flashes tapping the Speed Force to the limit? Inconsistencies happen in comics all the time. That's the trouble with going from what someone is capable of in one story to the next.

Flash isn't as fast as he once was. Runner is faster than the flash is currently. That may change in the future, but as it stands now the Runner is the faster of the two.