Question about Revan

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chilled monkey
I've never played the game myself, but I've seen several pictures and scenes from it.

In some of them Revan is wielding a pair of lightsabres. In others, just one.

So which was Revan's preferred fighting style? One sabre, or two?

Lord Lucien
Probably one, but knowing his Stuness, he could use both.

Captain REX
There is an in-game cut scene that shows him using a single lightsaber to take on a trio of Jedi, though that fight is interrupted.

darthbane99
revan uses one,and uses the vaapad or juyo form,he used it against the trio of jedi.

Elite Hunter
Kotor 1 has him using one saber in every cutscene. But in Kreesh's tomb on korriban the Exile's memory/vision has him using two.

darthbane99
yep...wasnt kreesh the one that developed the meditating sphere to create illusions,i know off topic.

Captain REX
No, that was Naga Sadow, I believe...

But yeah, haven't played KOTOR2, wouldn't know about that vision/cutscene.

chilled monkey
Thank you all very much.

Eminence
Originally posted by darthbane99
revan uses the vaapad or juyo form How could you possibly know that?

Nephthys
Jar'Kai's a variation of Juyo. And Revan used it in Kotor2 Ghost form

darthbane99
i read and write and look up grammar,thats my secret...not hypothetics

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by darthbane99
i read and write and look up grammar,thats my secret...not hypothetics

That confused me.

darthbane99
then your thinking,most people arnt confused,in a staggering way,so they never think...at least you think. All i meant was that i read about ....who was i talking about?....oh..revan,so i read his bio,thats how i know. I didnt know by pretending.

Red Nemesis
Go away.

edit: stick out tongue?

Barringer
What source has Jar'Kai as a variation of Juyo? Wookieepedia claims Jar'Kai is a variation of Ataru and Niman. I am, however, aware of Wookieepedia's shortcomings. I'll see if it has the claim sourced.

Edit: Apparently Path of Destruction has Ka'sim's Jar'Kai used in conjunction with Ataru, whereas I know that the Saga edition core book has Niman as a prerequisite for Jar'Kai.

Captain REX
I haven't seen it stated that Revan used Juyo. And Vaapad was way after his time, because Windu invented it...

Niman is mostly commonly the prerequisite for Jar'Kai. I dunno if it is absolutely required, of course; Anakin did not practice Niman when he used two lightsabers in AOTC. Nor did Dooku (though that was cut and it was possible he could have practiced it in his long life).

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by darthbane99
then your thinking,most people arnt confused,in a staggering way,so they never think...at least you think. All i meant was that i read about ....who was i talking about?....oh..revan,so i read his bio,thats how i know. I didnt know by pretending.

Ehm, thanks. I guess.

Eminence
You actually understood that?

Slash_KMC
Yup. You just get used to some things. And I actually used to do the exact same thing.

It's all good as long as I don't relapse.

Nactous
1

Captain REX
Don't make spam posts, Nac.

Darth Angel
Some people think that Revan's lightsaber form was juyo due to the juyo stance he adopts when he was about to fight the jedi strike team, just before Malak blasts the bridge of his ship.

darthbane99
well thats all i can state about vaapad,yes it was invented by mace,and though it was still known as juyo form in kotor.

Barringer
What has established that as a Juyo stance? I'm not questioning whether it's the truth or not, but I am curious about the lightsaber forms. It seems that a lot of writers latched onto the concept without any regard for consistency. Such as the mention of Vaapad in Path of Destruction, Form V being called Shien in KOTOR 2 which IIRC was the first instance in which Shien was identified with Form V, and just the overall history of Form VII. Previously Shien was merely Adi Gallia's form in which she held the lightsaber like an ice pick, which Ahsoka and Starkiller also use, which it's my understanding it still is, but now it's no longer rare.

Shatterpoint seemed to suggest that there never was a Form VII until Mace invented Vaapad, but then KOTOR 2 had Juyo. I'm not sure if Juyo was mentioned before KOTOR 2.

I don't profess to be an expert of, or even very familiar with any martial arts, but it seems that the writers that do tend to use Lightsaber Forms aren't either. From the comic Jedi Mace Windu: "That move... it was a form seven maneuver. Vaapad." That just seems an odd thing to say to me, like saying a "move" is a maneuver exclusive to a specific martial art would seem odd, I suppose. I also suppose that quote also serves to illustrate how some materials set during the prequel period treat Form VII and Vaapad as synonymous, while others such as Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, has Cin Drallig regard Juyo as Form VII, and Vaapad as distinct from that. It even seems to regard Juyo as a complete form IIRC.

Allankles
Originally posted by Barringer
What has established that as a Juyo stance? I'm not questioning whether it's the truth or not, but I am curious about the lightsaber forms. It seems that a lot of writers latched onto the concept without any regard for consistency. Such as the mention of Vaapad in Path of Destruction, Form V being called Shien in KOTOR 2 which IIRC was the first instance in which Shien was identified with Form V, and just the overall history of Form VII. Previously Shien was merely Adi Gallia's form in which she held the lightsaber like an ice pick, which Ahsoka and Starkiller also use, which it's my understanding it still is, but now it's no longer rare.

Shatterpoint seemed to suggest that there never was a Form VII until Mace invented Vaapad, but then KOTOR 2 had Juyo. I'm not sure if Juyo was mentioned before KOTOR 2.

I don't profess to be an expert of, or even very familiar with any martial arts, but it seems that the writers that do tend to use Lightsaber Forms aren't either. From the comic Jedi Mace Windu: "That move... it was a form seven maneuver. Vaapad." That just seems an odd thing to say to me, like saying a "move" is a maneuver exclusive to a specific martial art would seem odd, I suppose. I also suppose that quote also serves to illustrate how some materials set during the prequel period treat Form VII and Vaapad as synonymous, while others such as Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, has Cin Drallig regard Juyo as Form VII, and Vaapad as distinct from that. It even seems to regard Juyo as a complete form IIRC.

From what I gathered Shien was supposed to be an older version of Form V. Juyo is Form VII and was associated with the Sith (an agressive style that used the dark side).

Vaapad like Juyo complements the properties of the other forms but it's used by a Jedi who revels in the fight without falling to the dark side. Juyo is also the established Form VII, ancient and used mostly by dark Jedi until Mace's Vapaad.

Janus Marius
You may have answered your own question in a sense. A lot of the lightsaber styles are kind of maimed in interpretation by various authors in EU since the original Fightsaber article, which, IMO, should be taken as gospel since it's the original piece of work.

I wish I had the link at the moment which details its words exactly, but I can't find it at the moment. Suffice to say that it greatly simplified what has become an incredibly complex and yet somehow vague collection of lightsaber "traits". Apparently, if you hold your lightsaber above your head like a samurai, you're a Juyo practitioner, despite the fact that Juyo is a fighting philosophy and not just a set of moves.

From what I do remember of Juyo's intents, it's a fighting style comprised of traits from most of the other major lightsaber styles and combines them with elements of unpredictability. Because of its tendency to use both the Force and one's emotions as fuel, it's a risky and reckless fighting style. Vaapad is said to "complete" Juyo, but KotOR II shows that Juyo was already used well before being completed, and folks like Darth Maul are said to be masters of Juyo, so I think there's an important distinction there. It may be more correct to think of Vaapad as an offshoot of Juyo, kind of like how Jeet Kun Do is an offshoot of various martial arts that Bruce Lee idolized. To say that Mace Windu officially completed a particular fighting style would be like saying he invented it or that he understood it better than its creators ever could; obviously Stover has no real idea of what martial arts really means besides a system of attack and defense.

I used to know the exact answer to the Shien/Djem So problem, having researched it in the past. My original conclusion was to separate them, and think of them as similar but ultimately separate styles. One focused on parrying and dueling, and another focused more on reflecting blaster fire back at the opponent. Which is which, I couldn't tell you tonight. I'd have to do it another time when I'm more awake.

Another problem I'd like to bring up is Kit Fisto's idea of "Form I". Now, The Cestus Deception is one of the better Clone Wars-era novels out there. But this bastardization of what is essentially a basic learner's form, made from basic swordsman drills from eras long before lightsabers were the norm (Which brings up an interesting question - for how long did the denizens of the SW galaxy stop using swords before lightsabers were invented? How much was kept, do you think? German and Italian swordsmen were among the most prolific in the Middle Ages, and yet their works are practiced almost nowhere today!) bothers me greatly. The "animalistic" and "unpredictable" nature of Kit's attacks could almost be Juyo, yet it seems like Steve Barnes was completely ignorant of the distinction. Or even the definition of the form he was portraying. Ultimately, the entire idea seems so out of place I've stricken it from the explanation of Shii-Cho in all my descriptions of it.

Working back to Vaapad, a lot of hot air has been built up over this lightsaber form which is never truly fleshed out properly. If Vaapad is just "Juyo plus Mace's own home-brewed recipe", what is the distinction? Where does it come into play? Riding the edge of one's emotions was always considered part of Juyo. So was being unpredictable. Does he take it to new levels? Is it inherent in his command of the rather rare "Shatterpoint" ability? Is it possible Stover didn't do any research into it before he pitched the idea? Your guess is as good as mine.

Barringer
When Stover writes about Vaapad, he writes stuff like "Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat" which is stupid.

The problem with specific opening stances being assigned to different forms is that characters that are said to use different forms use those stances. Dooku and Anakin both use the stance you describe as a Juyo stance on Geonosis, for instance. Anakin's stance in that image is described as a Djem So stance in the AOTC Visual Dictionary. And the ROTS novelization describes Dooku's stance in that image as a Shien stance: "Skywalker brought his lightsaber to a Shien ready: hand of black-gloved durasteel cocked high at his shoulder, blade angling upward and away."

Here's a brilliant line from the Soresu article on Wookieepedia: "Rahm Kota may have also been a Soresu practicioner as it was stated that he took a defensive stance while in combat." Apparently you can't take a defensive stance if you use Juyo or Djem So. Sadly, this seems to exist in the EU, and isn't just limited to Wookieepedia.

The other issue I have with forms is that some don't make a lot of sense. The basis of Ataru seems to revolve around leaving your feet, which to my understanding is the last thing you want to do if you're fencing. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are said to use it in TPM, but they rarely leave their feet, with mostly Obi-Wan leaping. And nothing is said about the actual bladework or grip or footwork, although I suppose the "acrobatic" stuff could be considered "footwork".

Shii-cho is confusing as well, since it is derived from sword techniques, so presumably has no "blaster deflection" component like Makashi in addition to the fact that Form III: Soresu was developed in response to blasters (but then Fisto uses it to deflect blasters), but at the same time the Essential Guide to the Force says "Form I does not address lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat." What is it for, then? Attacking unarmed targets? Attacking opponents wielding swords?

Mace Windu's fighting style in the movies, to my untrained eye, looks nothing like how he is described or depicted in the EU novels and comics, respectively, and also has nothing in common with the brief period in which Maul fights with one blade, despite the original Fightsaber article claiming both use Form VII. The original article didn't apply names to the forms besides their number, and Stover seems to have ignored it by claiming Mace Windu invented it despite Maul using it as well, which I imagine necessitated the creation of Juyo.

I don't know, I just feel like lightsaber forms are really half assed. Do the Jedi really need two separate forms dedicated solely to blaster deflection (Soresu and Shien)? Nevermind that Shien is apparently also used by Anakin in the ROTS novelization while dueling Dooku to throw him off, despite what apparently has been established as Shien being the blaster deflection variant of Form V, and Djem So being the melee variant. And of course Obi-Wan using Soresu against Dooku and Grievous, despite the books describing it as blaster deflection and not addressing its use in melee. And the original Fightsaber article heavily implies that Niman is the worst form, but as a combination of most other forms, one would think it's the best.

Darth Angel
Yeah, I agree with both you guys, lightsaber styles in star wars have some misunderstandings. For exemple, why would a lightsaber style be particulary good for duel and bad against blaster firing? I mean, what's the logic? A good lighsaber form would create mechanisms and stances who would allow to defend against blaster fire AND during dueling. I mean, it's not that a jedi will be doing both actions at the same time, as far as I remember a jedi is usually or fighting enemies with blaster or fighting enemies with a lightsaber, so why not develop a style which gives you a good defence against blaster fire and still gives you good combinations for dueling by switching stance or moves for example?

By the way, other thing that bothers me is all this bullsh*t that a style is better then other against blaster fire. As far as I know the jedi's ability do deflect it is surely based in the fact that can predict the attack with the force. In that case, their defence is purely made due to their ability to predict that attacks, due to their "jedi sense". So, how a lightsaber style can give an edge on this matter? For example, Obi-wan generally puts his lightsaber over his head. What if I just blast his feet? How this stance gives him an edge on this matter over other lightsaber stances from other lightsaber forms?

In my opinion all this concept behind lightsaber style is somehow flawed...

Janus Marius
Some aspects of Stover's writing are very good. That which pertains to fighting is not always so good. If we were to take his word as gospel, Depa would be better than most swordsmen in the series.



Again, we should cite the misunderstanding of existing EU authors as the culprits here. Stances, while a trait of some forms (See current martial arts forms) are not indicative of the same mindset. Soresu, for example, "emphasizes reducing a combatant's target area, as opposed to some of the more far-reaching, open styles" and has a "focus on short, economical movements that provide complete coverage from incoming strikes". (Source). If someone uses a Soresu defensive posture (Which I seem to remember someone citing Kenobi's ninja stance in RotS as one) this does not automatically make them a Soresu practitioner. If the fighting mindset does not emphasize the above description, it is not truly Soresu, period. Guessing that one uses a certain style based on form alone is not a reliable method.

Also, we shouldn't assume that certain styles only have one stance, or that stances cannot be adopted to confuse or mislead the enemy. And fighting styles like Juyo and Niman are composites of many different styles, so the knowledge of "the basics" is understandable. The very description of Niman implies that before its creation, all Jedi spent a year or two studying the forms before choosing one to implement and the possibility exists that they may still do so. If this is the case, then no one can said to be truly "one style" or another.

Certainly, senior Jedi like Dooku, Cin Drallig, Anoon, Yoda, Mace, etc. all show knowledge of, if not outright proficiency in most of the existing lightsaber forms. While Niman sacrifices lightsaber training for focus on diplomacy and study, the other forms make no such sacrifices.



A lot of this is misconstrued from the original works. The recent incarnation of Fightsaber is mostly untouched, with only additions being thrown on just to make it more relevant to RotS. I'll quote:

The most acrobatic form of lightsaber combat. It draws upon the tight physical control of Jedi physiques and Force-assisted leaps, runs and spins. Masters of Form IV incorporate all of the ways in which the Force helps them go beyond what is physically possible. As such, it is often a marvel to behold. Qui-Gon Jinn was a practitioner of Ataru, using it to leap to advantageous positions while dueling against Darth Maul. His apprentice, Obi-Wan, followed suit. Obi-Wan's transformation of a kick to the head into a backflip to redirect the kinetic energy is a perfect example of a Form IV recovery.

Watching Yoda use Form IV is most impressive. His tiny frame and incredible leaping ability transformed him into a miniature tornado of cutting energy as he used Form IV in attempts to overwhelm Count Dooku and the Emperor's defenses. Form IV is also called the Way of the Hawkbat, or the Aggression Form. Those classically trained, like Count Dooku, dismissed Form IV as ridiculous acrobatics with exaggerated flourishes meant to mask obvious exposures of vital contact zones. Anakin's last leap over Obi-Wan in Episode III which resulted in him losing his limbs would support Dooku's assessment.

I seem to remember the original wording being a bit different in the first paragraph when the article came out. Basically, Ataru is all offensive with the use of Force-aided motion to overwhelm an opponent. Yoda is a living embodiment of the form's philosophy, and he was the original topic of discussion in the first Fightsaber (Which I was unable to find; SW.com apparently scrapped the article for this one). After watching TPM's final fightscene many many times, one of the things which struck me as stupid was the reckless abandon both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon used in their attacks. No defense (Which, if you remember correctly, was the main reason why Obi-Wan embraced Soresu; he realized that Qui-Gons defense was nonexistent) and at one point Qui-Gon even spins completely around in order to unleash a simple swing. I seem to recall it happening more than once, but this particular instance struck me as stupid because he did it when he didn't have Obi-Wan's support.

Go have a friend spin around while you try to punch between their shoulder blades. See how many times you win. Professional fencers and fighters do not expose their backs to enemies for the simple reason of getting off a single strike. Nick Gillard thought that it looked cool, therefore he put it on-screen. Ataru is an attempt by the creator of the Visual Dictionaries and a professional fencer to rationalize this stupid blunder. That's probably why it seems to awkward.



Good points brought up here.

Firstly, any game mechanics applied to the forms through KotOR II and subsequent gaming manuals should be thrown right out of the window. ALL Jedi must learn to deflect blaster bolts as a basic part of their learning. It not only helps increase their reflexes, but it's the number one thing they'll be doing with their lightsabers to begin with. Although Soresu represents a trend in Jedi fighting (You'll notice that with the exception of Juyo, all of the lightsaber fighting styles seem to go in order from first to last created, reflecting social trends just as much as mindsets) to work to make a better defense, this just means its focus is more on being defensive than say Ataru.

No one would argue that Yoda can't deflect blaster bolts because his fighting style isn't explicitly said to be good at it. And the idea that Shii-Cho can't help one deflect blaster bolts is a serious error; the original screenshot beneath the first Fightsaber article depicting Shii-Cho showed Yoda's younglings deflecting blaster bolts from remotes. Younglings are the ones learning the basic drills, attacks and parries. This kind of thinking once made people think Dooku couldn't handle blaster bolt deflection because his fighting style was made for saber-to-saber, because apparently one cannot possibly be more than a basic description of what their style works best at.



You're correct on that last part. To address the former, Mace Windu's style looks nothing like what it was intended to be by Stover in RotS, mainly because Nick Gillard didn't know nor care about Vaapad. Also, GL's lamebrain decision to let the actors fight instead of the much better trained professionals made the fight look outright horrible. However, the original Fightsaber was made right after AotC, so it's understandable that Maul and Mace, both of whom don't use typical Jedi fighting styles, might be lumped into a catch-all fighting style made up at the last minute. RotS just pissed all over established EU and right in Fightsaber's ear, unfortunately.

I'm dangerously close to my word limit; the rest of my reply in a bit here.

Janus Marius
The descriptions were basic; a ten page article complete with pics compared to what should be something better thought out. Then, the EU authors were left to maim it as best as they could. The problem is that a lot of folks were mistaking the idea that each 'form' represents one's goal in a fight.

If I'm Soresu, my goal is to minimize harm to myself, and eventually work to take the offense. However, Makashi has a similar goal. The difference lies in implementation; a Makashi expert is more of a fencer, working to keep his opponents off balance while keeping himself in the best position possible. Defense consists of an efficient and intelligent offense or redirect of oncoming attacks, versus Soresu's complete backpedaling, turtling variety. Soresu has a heavier emphasis on blaster bolt deflection being important, so it's small wonder that while all Jedi are great at deflection, Obi-Wan casually defends against rapid fire bursts at extremely close range, something we don't see very much of elsewhere. Also, Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu allowed him to last a long time against someone who is apparently a better fighter, even in close range such as the latter half of the Mustafar duel. Also, Soresu's fighting style is less like traditional rapier fencing than Makashi, with the blade itself being kept relatively close to the body at all times.

As for Niman, it's implied to be the worst form because of its lack of specialization. Less than ten years are spent on fighting after Form I, whereas other forms continue training always. This is because Niman practitioners aren't expected to be a jack-of-all-trades fighter, but rather have the basics down so they can focus on being diplomats. They fight when they have to, but they aren't really great warriors. Juyo is probably a better representative of what a mixed lightsaber form would be, since it includes knowledge of almost every form available.

Looking back through, not all of this is very well worded. I'm a bit hungry and tired, so I apologize if I messed anything up.

Nactous
Originally posted by Captain REX
Don't make spam posts, Nac.
1 Lightsaber

I was answering his question.

Captain REX
Then specify. Just posting a single character is spamming.

Nactous
Originally posted by Captain REX
Then specify. Just posting a single character is spamming.

I'm sorry, I thought I was just answering the question, but next time I shall elaborate more in detail then.

THE JLRTENJAC
Originally posted by Captain REX
Then specify. Just posting a single character is spamming.

As stated in KMC's Rules



Nowhere in there does it say anything about posting single character posts. smile

Originally posted by Nactous
I'm sorry, I thought I was just answering the question, but next time I shall elaborate more in detail then.

Now, Nac. You know as well as I do that people don't like to think. You have to specify exactly what you mean so that they can wrap their little minds around it. smile

Nactous
My apologizes.

Captain REX
Not going to take this. I've been dealing with you constantly this week, Nac, with your off-topic posting. See ya. Jac, you just got your third warning, and so a temp ban.

Back to the thread, please...

Peach
And for the record - making pointless posts is also considered spam. Something which Nactous has a long record of doing. And don't forget this part of the rules:

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Some aspects of Stover's writing are very good. That which pertains to fighting is not always so good. If we were to take his word as gospel, Depa would be better than most swordsmen in the series.


Not necessarily. Remember the story was told from Mace Windu's POV. Stuff like "Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat" etc could be chalked up to Mace's fatherly pride clouding his judgement.

Eminence
I don't think Mace ever said that.

Barringer
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Not necessarily. Remember the story was told from Mace Windu's POV. Stuff like "Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat" etc could be chalked up to Mace's fatherly pride clouding his judgement.

I agree that it could reflect Windu's own thoughts, rather than the objective truth. The problem tends to be that later EU writers take it as gospel rather than a subjective belief.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Eminence
I don't think Mace ever said that.

Barringer
It's in an entry of "From the Private Journals of Mace Windu" in Shatterpoint, pages 26-34 of the hardcover edition.

This was a large part of Depa's argument for coming here in the first place, and why she insisted on handling it personally. Untrained Force users can be exceedingly dangerous; wild talents crop up unpredictably in such populations. Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat, and her own cultural training-in the elegant philosophico-mystical disciplines of the Chalactan Adepts-makes her uniquely resistant to all forms of mental manipulation, from Force-powered suggestion to brainwashing by torture.

That paragraph is on page 33 (hardcover edition). Yes, Mace Windu did write that in his journal.

Red Nemesis
Huh. What do ya know?

Eminence
Oh.

Even he did, though, I don't understand why you would just try to dismiss it as conjecture; Mace states outright that she surpassed him as a swordsman over a decade prior. Are people just uncomfortable with the idea of a relatively obscure EU character being good?

Barringer
Originally posted by Eminence
Oh.

Even he did, though, I don't understand why you would just try to dismiss it as conjecture; Mace states outright that she surpassed him as a swordsman over a decade prior. Are people just uncomfortable with the idea of a relatively obscure EU character being good?

No, I'm uncomfortable with the line of reasoning that "mastery of Vaapad" makes someone "virtually unbeatable in personal combat". Does mastery of Shaolin Kung Fu make someone "virtually unbeatable in personal combat"? Would any legitimate martial artist ever claim that?

Eminence
Originally posted by Barringer
No, I'm uncomfortable with the line of reasoning that "mastery of Vaapad" makes someone "virtually unbeatable in personal combat". Does mastery of Shaolin Kung Fu make someone "virtually unbeatable in personal combat"? Would any legitimate martial artist ever claim that? This martial art happens to be the deadliest ever created and has only three practitioners, all of whom are master swordsmen of the highest calibre. It also requires a high-level mastery of other forms, meaning that practically every opponent they could possibly face would be both unfamiliar with their style and considerably less skilled than them.

^ That's also ignoring the fact that those three warriors are some of the best in history amongst Force-sensitives, who make up a miniscule fraction of the galactic population. With the rare exception of individuals like Durge, Jango Fett, or Grievous - none of whom would take Mace, nor presumably Depa or Sora - you pretty much need to be a Force-sensitive to even compete with another one, so that right there rules out 99.9999999% of the galaxy's potential combatants.

And there's a difference between "virtually unbeatable" and "invincible." How would the overwhelming majorirty of the planet fare, one on one, against Randy Couture? You could bring up the fact that Couture isn't a purist, but then again Vaapad is an off-shoot of Juyo that requires mastery of multiple other styles to learn and master, so the case could be made that Mace, Depa, and Sora aren't necessarily purists either, as their mastery of Vaapad requires all that other stuff.

Barringer
Are there real world martial arts that require mastery of other martial arts to be able to learn and master them?

It sounds like an RPG "prerequisite skills" thing to me.

Eminence
Originally posted by Barringer
Are there real world martial arts that require mastery of other martial arts to be able to learn and master them?No, because real world martial arts are developed by particular and unique cultures and civilizations. Kung Fu has no relation to Krav Maga. The lightsaber forms were developed by the Jedi Order and used by Jedi. Djem So is an answer to Soresu, Niman is a compilation of the forms, etc.

The closest thing to this would be progression within a martial art. As in, you need a white belt to be able to get a black belt.

Barringer
Originally posted by Eminence
No, because real world martial arts are developed by particular and unique cultures and civilizations. Kung Fu has no relation to Krav Maga. The lightsaber forms were developed by the Jedi Order and used by Jedi. Djem So is an answer to Soresu, Niman is a compilation of the forms, etc.

The closest thing to this would be progression within a martial art. As in, you need a white belt to be able to get a black belt.

Well, if that's the case, why do characters choose to use "lesser forms" like Shii-Cho? I understand that Niman was the most popular at the time of the prequels (despite the fact that pretty much no named characters use it, which kind of defeats the purpose), but why don't characters that choose not to use Niman study Juyo? Why "settle" for Ataru, Shii-Cho or Djem So?

I dislike the concept that Juyo or Vaapad is a "better" form than the others, because if that were the case, everyone would want to use the better form. And those that wouldn't want to study combat to that extent would use Niman. Forms 1-5 would be obsolete (edit: for the purposes of specialization).

Edit: To clarify, for example Anakin wouldn't specialize in Djem So, he's learn it to specialize in Juyo or Vaapad.

Eminence
Originally posted by Barringer
Well, if that's the case, why do characters choose to use "lesser forms" like Shii-Cho? I understand that Niman was the most popular at the time of the prequels (despite the fact that pretty much no named characters use it, which kind of defeats the purpose), but why don't characters that choose not to use Niman study Juyo? Why "settle" for Ataru, Shii-Cho or Djem So?

I dislike the concept that Juyo or Vaapad is a "better" form than the others, because if that were the case, everyone would want to use the better form. And those that wouldn't want to study combat to that extent would use Niman. Forms 1-5 would be obsolete (edit: for the purposes of specialization).

Edit: To clarify, for example Anakin wouldn't specialize in Djem So, he's learn it to specialize in Juyo or Vaapad. Mace Windu is a prodigy; he had mastered multiple forms and created and mastered Vaapad before he turned forty, and was on the Council before he was thirty. Depa Billaba was a prodigy; she had surpassed his master in the form that he created, and also ended up on the Council at a very young age. Sora Bulq is heralded as one of the greatest lightsaber instructors in history, a master of all classical and experimental forms.

^ That was convoluted, because I'm trying not to quote things piece by piece. Sorryz.

Those are three extremely martial Jedi. Most Jedi are, by nature, diplomats. That's why most of them practiced Niman; it required the least intensive lightsaber training, to allow focus on diplomacy. The rest of the Jedi, most of whom probably lie somewhere between the Niman crowd and the Vaapad trio as far as dedication to combat skills go, focus on a style that either enhances their strengths or covers their weaknesses. Obi-Wan took up Soresu to compensate for the lack of defense inherent in use of Ataru. Anakin took up Djem So for the sheer power it afforded him. Yoda took up Ataru for the speed and mobility, to make up for his diminutive stature.

And you seem to be forgetting that, as I said, only three people knew Vaapad; its creator, his apprentice, and the lightsaber instructor who helped refine it. Mace Windu was notoriously selective about who could and couldn't learn the form, as evidenced by both Jedi: Mace Windu and Shatterpoint. He believed that without enough mental fortitude and control, the user would be too susceptible to the pull of the dark side; Depa and Sora proved him right. Can you imagine Anakin trying to learn that form other forms to even qualify, and at best he was a master one]?

Barringer
I suppose you're right, that is how it's laid out by the EU. I do think they've left it open for Jedi Knights other than Windu, Bulq, and Billaba to have some proficiency in Vaapad at the time of the purge, since it does make note that they're the only ones to master it, but lines imply that others do study it. To quote Yoda:

"Deadliest of all... But dangerous it is-- to its master, as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone to mastery has risen."

I must admit I'm not a fan of the way Stover portrayed Windu in Shatterpoint, but I suppose it's also consistent with his portrayal in the films. I.e. he's a jerk, especially to Anakin. He seems to exude self-importance in the novel though, and I do think his assessment of Vaapad overstates how great it, and he, is.

I could see Anakin wanting to specialize in Vaapad, and Windu being a jerk and telling him no. "Go ahead and Vaapad this, you-"

I don't know, maybe I'm biased against Windu though.

Edit: The Revenge of the Sith novel does imply that Anakin is a lightsaber prodigy himself, and possibly superior to Windu. Windu says "Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

Ki-Adi-Mundi says "We have seen that young Skywalker has the power to battle a Sith Lord alone, if need be; he has proven that with Dooku. If he is indeed the chosen one, we must keep him in play against the Sith-keep him in a position to fulfill his destiny."

Agen Kolar says "And even if the prophecy has been misread, Anakin is the one Jedi we can best hope would survive an encounter with a Sith Lord."

Perhaps their reference to "power" refers to his aptitude with the Force, but when he defeated Dooku it wasn't with the Force.

Eminence
You must hate minorities. yes

Barringer
Originally posted by Eminence
You must hate minorities. yes

But I love Lando!

Eminence
Exception to the rule. Like Hitler wasn't Aryan or something...

Janus Marius
I have to wonder if it's the mindset of Vaapad (which relies on almost falling into the Force) rather than any set moves. In Shatterpoint, you hear surprisingly little about the moves of Vaapad, with a huge emphasis on the mental aspect of the style. Whereas Soresu is identified by its actions as is Makashi and Niman, etc., Vaapad is identified more by a primal, instinctual understanding which marries with some subconscious problem-solving part of the brain. It's worth noting that Mace Windu uses the same mindset in all of his combat roles, regardless of the means, which correctly implies that Vaapad is not just a lightsaber style; it's a fighting philosophy.

Barringer
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I have to wonder if it's the mindset of Vaapad (which relies on almost falling into the Force) rather than any set moves. In Shatterpoint, you hear surprisingly little about the moves of Vaapad, with a huge emphasis on the mental aspect of the style. Whereas Soresu is identified by its actions as is Makashi and Niman, etc., Vaapad is identified more by a primal, instinctual understanding which marries with some subconscious problem-solving part of the brain. It's worth noting that Mace Windu uses the same mindset in all of his combat roles, regardless of the means, which correctly implies that Vaapad is not just a lightsaber style; it's a fighting philosophy.

But he uses his reconstructed Juyo when he uses a lightsaber?

Janus Marius
Possibly. The original Fightsaber article had Mace Windu showcased as an example of the Juyo style (This was before Vaapad). The idea of "bold, direct movements" adequately describes his behaviors in AotC, which was the latest movie when the article came out.

Nactous
Anyway, he is seen in different media using only one lightsaber.

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