Anakin Skywalker vs. Mace Windu

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Pyron_Knight
Probably been done before but what the hell.

1. ROTS Pre-Vader Anakin
2. ROTS Darth Vader

Hewhoknowsall
Uhh.... Mace wins all 3?

Pyron_Knight
There's two fights and I can see Anakin winning.

Dr McBeefington
You CAN see Anakin winning how exactly?

Pyron_Knight
Well he's already proven himself a better lightsaber duelist than Dooku by beating the Count in around a minute or less. I would hope we all agree Dooku is in Mace's league.
On top of that, in scenario 1, Vaapad is useless since Anakin is not a dark sider at this point.

Eminence
In which case Mace is faster, probably stronger, more skilled, has shatterpoint, and has more applicable Force power.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Eminence
In which case Mace is faster, probably stronger, more skilled, has shatterpoint, and has more applicable Force power.

ares834
I can also see Pre-mustafar Vader winning. Mace says Anakin may be the best jedi. However, my argument rests on the fact that Anakin man-handled the Count in ROTS and Dooku has defeated Mace.

Lord Lucien
Anakin out-dueled Dooku only when he tapped in to the Dark Side. In order to summon the strength and skill to do the same to Mace, he would have to use the Dark again, conferring upon Mace a clear and rather decisive advantage, ala Vaapad. Mace wins.

DARTH POWER
Anakin also fought Dooku to a stand-off during the clone wars..

also every time Dooku attacked Anakin with the Force in that fight Anakin got right back up and carried on fighting, which shows Mace being better with the Force(supposedly) would also be moot.

and i dnt buy this Mace being more skilled either. Djem So is Lethal in Swordfighting.. Not only does it use defence techniques from Soresu but also Deflects the Opponents Attacks back on him, and Anakin's completely Mastered it.

Eminence
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin also fought Dooku to a stand-off during the clone wars..Anakin ran away.

Notice how all but one time when Dooku knocked Anakin down, he simply stood there and waited for him to get back up.

PIS doesn't factor into Versus fights.

No one cares.

Vaapad is "the deadliest" of all forms.

Prove he mastered it. Go find me a canon source. Then prove that, like Mace Windu, Anakin had "high-level mastery of multiple forms."

We've been over this three times. You're horribly wrong, give it up.

Red Nemesis
This does not, of course, say that Anakin's level of mastery was anywhere near Mace's, just that he'd attained (at least) a high degree of proficiency in his chosen form.

ares834
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
This does not, of course, say that Anakin's level of mastery was anywhere near Mace's, just that he'd attained (at least) a high degree of proficiency in his chosen form.
But the oppisite is also true. I doubt it says anywhere that Mace was more proficent in Vaapad then Anakin was at Djem So.

Darth Angel
Lightsaber- Hard to say. I can actually see it going anyway way based on the conditions of the fight. Anyway IMO mace may have an advantage here, especially if anakin goes bersek.

Force- Definitely Mace. Liberty of Ryloth and Shatterpoint says it all

All out- Probably Mace. I see a great fight, but in the end mace takes it

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Well he's already proven himself a better lightsaber duelist than Dooku by beating the Count in around a minute or less. I would hope we all agree Dooku is in Mace's league.
On top of that, in scenario 1, Vaapad is useless since Anakin is not a dark sider at this point.

Anakin beat Dooku, but Mace beat Sidious (both used some technique/rage that gave them an advantage)

Mace's vaapad is useless, but Anakin can't use his rage like he did vs Dooku or else Mace's vaapad would become useFUL

Mace punched through an army of droids with his bare hands and dodged lasers like they were nothing.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by ares834
But the oppisite is also true. I doubt it says anywhere that Mace was more proficent in Vaapad then Anakin was at Djem So.

False. Mace is the only person to have ever mastered his form- he invented it and everyone else that used it fell to the dark side or went insane and fell to the dark side.

Furthermore, form VII requires high level mastery of multiple forms which, even if it means only one other form (which is false but I'm being generous) means that he has quantitatively more mastery of the lightsaber than Anakin.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Anakin beat Dooku, but Mace beat Sidious (both used some technique/rage that gave them an advantage)
Ignore this, ABC doesn't work.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

Mace's vaapad is useless, but Anakin can't use his rage like he did vs Dooku or else Mace's vaapad would become useFUL
False. Mace's vaapad gives him a boost regardless of the enemy he fights. Vaapad will help him, and then help him more if Anakin taps the DS.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

Mace punched through an army of droids with his bare hands and dodged lasers like they were nothing.
kewl.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Ignore this, ABC doesn't work.



And yet the guy that I was quoting was using that (oh Anakin could beat Dooku and Dooku is on par with Mace) so I was just saying that if you were to use ABC Mace still wins.

Red Nemesis
So then ignore that post too.

ares834
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
False. Mace is the only person to have ever mastered his form- he invented it and everyone else that used it fell to the dark side or went insane and fell to the dark side.

Furthermore, form VII requires high level mastery of multiple forms which, even if it means only one other form (which is false but I'm being generous) means that he has quantitatively more mastery of the lightsaber than Anakin.
I never said I doubt that Mace is mor proficent with the lightsaber than Anakin, however, Mace may not be as proficent with Vapaad as Anakin is with Djem So. Sure Mace is the only one to master Vapaad, but Anakin clearly managed to master Djem So. No where does it say that Mace's skill with Vapaad surpasses Anakin's skill with Djem So.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by ares834
I never said I doubt that Mace is mor proficent with the lightsaber than Anakin, however, Mace may not be as proficent with Vapaad as Anakin is with Djem So. Sure Mace is the only one to master Vapaad, but Anakin clearly managed to master Djem So. No where does it say that Mace's skill with Vapaad surpasses Anakin's skill with Djem So.

"you have to be yoda or mace to challenge the emperor"

otherwise, they would've said "you have to be yoda, mace or anakin to challenge the emperor" (got that argument from someone...)

ares834
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
"you have to be yoda or mace to challenge the emperor"

otherwise, they would've said "you have to be yoda, mace or anakin to challenge the emperor" (got that argument from someone...)
That serves as an ABC argument which dosn't work.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by ares834
That serves as an ABC argument which dosn't work. To an extent it does. Whether or not Anakin is the master of Djem So, it doesn't provide him with additional skill and strength, unlike Vaapad. And if Anakin didn't need anything additional, then he would have been capable of handling the Emperor. But as we all know, he wasn't.

Eminence
Originally posted by ares834
I never said I doubt that Mace is mor proficent with the lightsaber than Anakin, however, Mace may not be as proficent with Vapaad as Anakin is with Djem So. Sure Mace is the only one to master Vapaad, but Anakin clearly managed to master Djem So. No where does it say that Mace's skill with Vapaad surpasses Anakin's skill with Djem So. That's absolutely retarded. Anakin is the finest Djem So practitioner Dooku has ever seen... ergo he's more skilled in that form than a man who a.) has "a high-level mastery of multiple forms, and b.) created and perfected his own form.

And again, prove that Anakin had mastered Djem So. Go ahead.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by ares834
That serves as an ABC argument which dosn't work.

You seem to think that if it's an ABC argument than it doesn't work. Then what if they had Ben take over the NJO and become grandmaster, and then Sidious comes back even more powerful than before and Ben wtf pwns him unarmed blindfolded? And then they have a thread "Ben vs battle droid" and someone says "Ben wins! He pwned the Emperor and Sidious could pwn a battle droid!". Would it make sense for a battle droid supporter to say "that's an ABC argument and it's just the first book of the series and that's the only fight Ben's been in so he has no feats except for that which is invalid because it's an ABC! So therefore he loses by default because he has no feats!"

ares834
Originally posted by Eminence
That's absolutely retarded. Anakin is the finest Djem So practitioner Dooku has ever seen... ergo he's more skilled in that form than a man who a.) has "a high-level mastery of multiple forms, and b.) created and perfected his own form.

And again, prove that Anakin had mastered Djem So. Go ahead.
What's "Absolutley retarded"? I simply do not understand? You seem to belive Mace would destroy Anakin because he is the only one who has mastered Vapaad. I'll put it in a real life sitiuation. If I create a new Karate form and master it along with plenty of other Karate forms, it dosn't mean I would be able to best a person who has not yet mastered as many Karate froms as me, ashe could be faster, stronger, or just plain better.

However, Anakin has mastered Djem So, Dooku claims he is the finest practicioner he has ever seen, that screams mastered to me.

ares834
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You seem to think that if it's an ABC argument than it doesn't work. Then what if they had Ben take over the NJO and become grandmaster, and then Sidious comes back even more powerful than before and Ben wtf pwns him unarmed blindfolded? And then they have a thread "Ben vs battle droid" and someone says "Ben wins! He pwned the Emperor and Sidious could pwn a battle droid!". Would it make sense for a battle droid supporter to say "that's an ABC argument and it's just the first book of the series and that's the only fight Ben's been in so he has no feats except for that which is invalid because it's an ABC! So therefore he loses by default because he has no feats!"
If the Dooku>Windu, Anakin>Dooku, thus Anakin>Windu dosn't work neither should Windu>Sidious, Sidious>Anakin, thus Windu>Anakin.

Eminence
Originally posted by ares834
What's "Absolutley retarded"? I simply do not understand? You seem to belive Mace would destroy Anakin because he is the only one who has mastered Vapaad.I've made it pretty clear why I think Mace would beat Anakin. The kid is scary when he uses the dark side, but if he does Mace kicks his ass . When he's trying to fight without cutting loose and giving in to his rage, he holds himself back, and as a result he isn't as strong.

Except in this case Mace is faster, stronger, and just plain better than Anakin.

That's not proof of mastery, it's a potential indication of it. You'd never be able to actually build a case for Anakin fully mastering the form off of that one statement.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by ares834
If the Dooku>Windu, Anakin>Dooku, thus Anakin>Windu dosn't work neither should Windu>Sidious, Sidious>Anakin, thus Windu>Anakin.

In some cases, ABC doesn't work. But in other cases, it does. If a "superclonetrooper" wtf pwns 10 destroyer droids, then it can be assumed that it could also wtf pwn 10 battle droids (destroyers > battle droids) unless if him beating the destroyers involves something like causing their shields to devour the droids or something that won't apply to the battle droids.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Eminence
Anakin ran away.

To go save Aashoka after having Dooku at his mercy. You are so in denial.

Originally posted by Eminence
Notice how all but one time when Dooku knocked Anakin down, he simply stood there and waited for him to get back up..

doesnt matter because when he tried to kill him after the first time he knocked him down, he culdnt. and he tried his best. Anakin can obviously take force hits.

Originally posted by Eminence
Vaapad is "the deadliest" of all forms.

Because it gives the user extra power. Extra Power which Mace would need when going up against Anakin. But when it comes to technical skill in Swordfighting, Djem So is better. Its specifically designed for that. Vapaad is not.

Originally posted by Eminence
Prove he mastered it. Go find me a canon source. Then prove that, like Mace Windu, Anakin had "high-level mastery of multiple forms."

The Fact that Dooku who was a former lightsaber instructor at the Temple, has never seen ANYONE better at it is NOt proof to you that he completely Mastered it??? Or the fact he was as Skilled as Kenobi was at Soresu?? Your just in denial.

Oh and hows Mace being a Master of multiple forms going to help?? Dooku was also trained in all forms.. didnt help him. The fact is Mace is going to use Vapaad, and Anakin Djem So.. Theres no eveidence that Mace is better at Vapaad than Anakin is at Djem So. The fact that Mace Created Vapaad means Jack.

Originally posted by Eminence
We've been over this three times. You're horribly wrong, give it up.

Dnt need to. Youve not given any proof Mace is better at anything. Your just using your Mace fanbyism as an argument. Your Resorting to lies like Anakin ran away from Dooku. And completely in Denial about Anakins Mastery of Djem So.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
"you have to be yoda or mace to challenge the emperor"


Mace can comepte with Sidious because of Vapaad's superconducting loop. He wnt be that fast or powerful when fighting Anakin.

Notice how Lucas didnt say You have to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace

SIDIOUS 66
Kenobi and Anakin both could not even take Ventress, together.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace can comepte with Sidious because of Vapaad's superconducting loop. He wnt be that fast or powerful when fighting Anakin.

Notice how Lucas didnt say You have to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace If you can take Mace and overwhelm his Vaapad and counter his Shatterpoint, then logically speaking you have skill and power enough to take on Sidious (maybe not beat, but take on). As Anakin doesn't...

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace can comepte with Sidious because of Vapaad's superconducting loop. He wnt be that fast or powerful when fighting Anakin.

Notice how Lucas didnt say You have to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace

Note that George Lucas didn't say "You have to be Mace or Sidious to compete with a battle droid". Therefore, by your logic, a Mace could not beat a battle droid. GL doesn't say "you have to be X or Y to beat A" for everybody, infact he only did it once.

Either way, Anakin can NOT beat Mace. Mace Windu is one of the most powerful jedi or sith ever.

Eminence
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
To go save Aashoka after having Dooku at his mercy. You are so in denial.You should probably watch the fight before talking out of your ass. Notice how Dooku knocks Anakin to the ground with a Force-push , then stands back and pulls out his hologram. He taunts and angers Anakin, who then hops up and punches Dooku, who is now holding the hologram in one hand and wielding his lightsaber with the other. He doesn't overpower him, he doesn't beat him through a show of skill.

Hell, he doesn't even beat him. Anyone with an ounce of sense would see clearly that Dooku had the upper hand in that duel the entire time.

Oh, he takes Force hits all the time. Problem is that they usually end up knocking him on his ass, which is sort of a problem.

Read the earlier posts on the matter.

Again, read. It isn't conclusive proof of mastery, it is a potential indication. Mace, meanwhile, is a confirmed "high-level master" of multiple forms, plus Juyo, plus Vaapad.

Now you're just being retarded.

Reported for the fanboy remark, because it's the third time you've said it without any substantiation and, surprisingly enough, you're not nearly as entertaining as the usual trolls.

ares834
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kenobi and Anakin both could not even take Ventress, together. Wrong. Anakin has soloed her a couple of times.

Eminence
True, but only with heavy use of the dark side. She was dominating him in their second duel before she scarred him, which pretty much put him over the edge.

Kodiak
Anakin<Mace
Vaapad ftw! Mace was probably the best jedi in the entire order at that time, except for Yoda.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If you can take Mace and overwhelm his Vaapad and counter his Shatterpoint, then logically speaking you have skill and power enough to take on Sidious (maybe not beat, but take on). As Anakin doesn't...

well if your just talking about "Taking them On" with no chance of actually defeating them.... then Dooku can Take On Yoda, so it would be silly to think Anakin cant even "Take On" Sidious.

Or do you really think hed go down in a second Like Agen Kolar??

And we already know Dooku culdnt take Anakin out with the Force as easily as he could Obi-Wan, so we know Anakin has much resistance to Force Attacks than the likes of Obi-Wan.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Note that George Lucas didn't say "You have to be Mace or Sidious to compete with a battle droid". Therefore, by your logic, a Mace could not beat a battle droid. GL doesn't say "you have to be X or Y to beat A" for everybody, infact he only did it once.

No because weve seen Mace and lesser Jedis take down Battle Droids plenty of times.

My point is you cant use ABC logic like that. Just because you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious DOES NOT MEAN you have to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Either way, Anakin can NOT beat Mace. Mace Windu is one of the most powerful jedi or sith ever.

So was Count Dooku. And look what Anakin did to him.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by ares834
Wrong. Anakin has soloed her a couple of times.

Obi Wans Soled her as well. In fact he completely owned her. She ran away from him! HAHA! and she didnt go to save anyone, or decide its not worth the risk... she was just plain out loosing and Ran Away!! Just like she Ran from Mace. It just shows the denial people are in here.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Eminence
You should probably watch the fight before talking out of your ass. Notice how Dooku knocks Anakin to the ground with a Force-push , then stands back and pulls out his hologram. He taunts and angers Anakin, who then hops up and punches Dooku, who is now holding the hologram in one hand and wielding his lightsaber with the other. He doesn't overpower him, he doesn't beat him through a show of skill.Hell, he doesn't even beat him. Anyone with an ounce of sense would see clearly that Dooku had the upper hand in that duel the entire time.

Oh, he takes Force hits all the time. Problem is that they usually end up knocking him on his ass, which is sort of a problem.



Your completely Blind... Dooku culdnt outduel him.. thats why he tried Dun Moch on him. Dooku only had the advantage with the Force thats it!!
He knocked Anakin down twice. Probably didnt bother trying to kill him the second time he knocked him down, as he still had his lightsaber. Because the first time he knocked the lightsaber out of his hand, and yet he still culdnt kill him!!!! Anakin got back to his lightsaber before Dooku could kill him! and was on the floor with his lightsaber and Dooku still culdnt do anything!!! HAHAHA!!

So no wonder he didnt try anything the second time he knocked him down... he knew it was pointless, especially when hes still holding his lightsaber.

Oh and you cant even count. Dooku knocked him down twice, not three times. Anakin Staggered Dooku once and Knocked him down once as well. And that no excuse he was holding the holocron.. No one was forcing him to keep holding it, when the lightsaber duel started again.


Originally posted by Eminence
Again, read. It isn't conclusive proof of mastery, it is a potential indication. Mace, meanwhile, is a confirmed "high-level master" of multiple forms, plus Juyo, plus Vaapad.

Anakins proof of mastery is there. Your just in Denial. Hes not only masteres it but clearly "Completley" Mastrted it. But you wnt beleive it because the only way you can win this debate is by being in Denial.

Oh and Djem So is better for Sword Duelling than Vapaad. Its more skilled for Duelling. And it will deflect Mace's Vapaad Power attacks back on to him, and then follow it up by some Djem So Power attacks backed by Anakin's ever growing strength. Mace wnt be able to handle it.

and his mastery of multiple forms is impressive, but i dnt see how its going to help him, as hes going to use nothing but Vapaad. Also to Master Djem So, you have to first Perfect the Art of Soresu, because Djem So is like Soresu but deflects attacks back to the opponent, instead of deflecting them randomly. Which Means Mace wnt be able to get past Anakins Defences, just like Dooku culdnt(in duelling), not even in the Clone Wars, and just like ObiWan culdnt(in duelling)

Originally posted by Eminence
Reported for the fanboy remark, because it's the third time you've said it without any substantiation and, surprisingly enough, you're not nearly as entertaining as the usual trolls.

Its the SECOND time weve had this debate, not Third. Again im arguing with someone who cant even count.
And iv given plenty of eveidence, from ROTS novel, the Movie, the Animated movie, and just from general infromation on Djem So.

Its you whose in Denial about Anakins Mastery of Djem So.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well if your just talking about "Taking them On" with no chance of actually defeating them.... then Dooku can Take On Yoda, so it would be silly to think Anakin cant even "Take On" Sidious.

Or do you really think hed go down in a second Like Agen Kolar??

And we already know Dooku culdnt take Anakin out with the Force as easily as he could Obi-Wan, so we know Anakin has much resistance to Force Attacks than the likes of Obi-Wan. If you feel that Anakin can take Mace, then holy shit, Anakin is up on the scale. He's so far up that his chances of actually defeating Palpatine are real and tangible. But... that's not true.

Eminence
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your completely Blind... Dooku culdnt outduel him.. thats why he tried Dun Moch on him.Right. Because if you're actually trying to kill your opponent, the obvious thing to do is to whip out a hologram and laugh when he's face down in the sand for the third time in under sixty seconds.

You must be, like, the greatest fighter on the playground or something. Teach me plz.

The Force factors into a duel, genius.

Twice with the Force, and then Anakin stumbled to the ground on his knees after having his backpack slashed in half.

Are you high?

Yeah, it's not like he could've, y'know, used the Force or anything...

Again, you're pretending PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity) doesn't exist.

HAHA ur in denial!1 anikan fanboy1!!

Pot, kettle, black.

Anakin gets knocked to the ground at 1:15, again at 1:26, and then once more at 2:07. So the first time is at 1:15 (one, the second time is at 1:26 (two), and the third time is at 2:07 (three).

OR

1. 1:15
2. 1:26
3. 2:07

1, 2... 3? OMGRLY?!

HURRAY 4 MATH!

Yeah, how'd that work out?

At the end of the battle, when Dooku is goading him on with a hologram in his hand.

So you agree that he didn't need to hold the hologram, which meant when Anakin was lying on the ground he could have done something other than pull it out, right? Like, choke him with the Force, or pull away his lightsaber and electrocute him, or just shove him around for fun? And since we've already seen that Dooku holds the clear advantage in the Force department - which you've admitted to - we know he'd be able to do all of that, so we can conclude that Dooku could easily have killed Anakin had he been trying as hard as he could.

Follow?

No it isn't.

Why are you quoting something that's never been stated? You realize what a "quote" is, right?

I win this debate every time I post, sometimes multiple times per post. I only repeatedly post because people like you balance out the rampant oppression and make this place fun, so I don't want you to leave.

Yes, in a stunning reversal from yesterday, I now find you mind numbingly entertaining.

Prove it.

How does a "form" have "skill"?

That makes no sense.

You're just making shit up as you go, aren't you?

Mace is stronger, faster, smarter, more skilled, and for all relevant intents and purposes, more powerful.

More flat out lying and poorly thought out bullshit.

I distinctly remember Dooku turning his back on Anakin and kicking him into a wall.

Dooku does, Obi-Wan does.

I'd fully expect for you to conveniently ignore the first one, despite the fact that the video's linked in the very post you responded to, but pretending that Obi-Wan never breached Anakin's defenses is a new low for you.

Educate yourself. Ignoring the body hits, as well as the segment of the novel pointing out that at one point, Obi-Wan had Anakin unarmed and at his mercy, the duel ends with Obi-Wan cutting off three of Anakin's limbs at once.

Third time you've called me a fanboy, directly or otherwise (to my knowledge).

agen im arguing wit some1 hoo kant evuhn reeed Or kownt

Your "general infromation" = complete bullshit.

I'm not familiar with Djem So according to DARTH POWER.

I'm going to start picking on your spelling and grammar next post. There's a veritable goldmine there.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and Djem So is better for Sword Duelling than Vapaad. Its more skilled for Duelling. And it will deflect Mace's Vapaad Power attacks back on to him, and then follow it up by some Djem So Power attacks backed by Anakin's ever growing strength. Mace wnt be able to handle it.

and his mastery of multiple forms is impressive, but i dnt see how its going to help him, as hes going to use nothing but Vapaad. Also to Master Djem So, you have to first Perfect the Art of Soresu, because Djem So is like Soresu but deflects attacks back to the opponent, instead of deflecting them randomly. Good God, are you high? "Deflect Vaapad?" What the f*ck?


And are you saying that Djem So is a defensive form like Soresu? Or are you saying that Anakin's knowledge of Soresu will serve him well in a fight? Because if it's the latter, then why do you think Mace's intricate mastery of ALL the forms wouldn't serve him well?

Eminence
no becuz hes only goin to use vaapaad

Kotor3
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kenobi and Anakin both could not even take Ventress, together.

You can't be serious with this response. This is totally untrue.

Hewhoknowsall
Why is this even a debate? It's been officially proven that Mace Windu > Anakin. Mace beat Palpatine, albiet with Vaapad. ROTS VADER is 80% of Palpatine. Mace is said to be on the same level as Yoda. No way is Anakin.

All though Anakin and Obi Wan fought MUCH faster than Mace and Sidious did...

Eminence
No. OT Vader is 80% as powerful as OT Palpatine. I don't understand why people can't make the distinction. Or why they say someone is a person.

You also managed to pack three ABC arguments into one post. Nice.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Kotor3
You can't be serious with this response. This is totally untrue.

Did you watch the episode? How is it untrue?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Eminence
No. OT Vader is 80% as powerful as OT Palpatine. I don't understand why people can't make the distinction. Or why they say someone is a person.

You also managed to pack three ABC arguments into one post. Nice.

So an ABC argument is invalid?

Hypocrite!

My point still stands, Mace wins.

Eminence
How am I a hypocrite for pointing out illogical reasoning?

Red Nemesis
He's refusing to distinguish between ABC arguments (notice the strawman that all ABC arguments are invalid simply because his was) and by doing so he lumps any of yours that did work into the realm of faulty logic. As you certainly have constructed effective ABC comparisons and we are no longer recognizing that the transitive and substitutional properties apply to characters' characteristics (speed etc.) he makes you a hypocrite.

It isn't logical but he doesn't have to be- the audience here is all that matters- the unseen pastwatchers and archivists that have lost the art of reason and will notice that 'lulz eminence did something wrong'.

Eminence
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
It isn't logical but he doesn't have to be- the audience here is all that matters- the unseen pastwatchers and archivists that have lost the art of reason and will notice that 'lulz eminence did something wrong'. The audience will then be swiftly and ruthlessly whipped into shape.

Lord Lucien
Did Red Nemesis have to pwn a b!tch?


Yes. And he did.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Eminence
Are you high?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Good God, are you high?

No. confused

Yes, that is the only thing I got out of this entire thread.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
It isn't logical but he doesn't have to be

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If you feel that Anakin can take Mace, then holy shit, Anakin is up on the scale. He's so far up that his chances of actually defeating Palpatine are real and tangible. But... that's not true.

Yes i feel like the guy who completely overpowered Count Dooku is easily in the same league as Mace. Unless your claiming Count Dooku is no where near Mace's league, then I can understand why you wuldnt think Anakin would even hav a chance against Mace.

And no being as Powerful as Mace doesnt mean you can take down Palpatine, because only Vapaad can form a Superconducting loop to temporarly put the user in the same league as someone like Palpatine. This is where ABC doesnt work. However the ABC logic does work with Anakin, Dooku and Mace in the sense that Anakin must at least be as Powerful as Mace(whether he beats him in a fight or not).

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Eminence
Right. Because if you're actually trying to kill your opponent, the obvious thing to do is to whip out a hologram and laugh when he's face down in the sand for the third time in under sixty seconds.

Well the previous portions of the fight suggest that even if Dooku did try to kill anakin at that point, he probably culdnt considering Anakin was lying on the floor and Dooku still culdnt kill him. As long as Anakin has his Saber hes still in the picture. And the animated movie made it clear even as of the Clone Wars Anakin was a match for Dooku in Sabers at least.
Which means even as of the clone wars Anakin was most probably already the 3rd Most Powerful Jedi after Yoda and Mace. Then by ROTS he was even more powerful.

Originally posted by Eminence
The Force factors into a duel, genius.

Well it didnt stop Anakin even in the animated movie. and in ROTS novel when Anakin had let himself loose Dooku "used all the power of the darkside" to throw a piece of a durasteel table at him but Anakin simply "Smashed it aside".. There was simply no stopping him at that point.

Originally posted by Eminence


How does a "form" have "skill"?

Djem So is not a specific form itself. It is a variant of Form 5. A variant specifically adapted for duelling. Vapaad is deadly, but no where is it said to be best specifically for saber to saber duels.


Originally posted by Eminence

Mace is stronger, faster, smarter, more skilled, and for all relevant intents and purposes, more powerful.

Mace is not proven to be better at any of those things than the person who is said to be Possibly the Most Poweful, the Fastest and the Strongest Jedi of Any Generation. Mace himself argues Anakin is arguably the most powerful jedi alive as of ROTS.

And hes certainly not Stronger than the guy who completely Overpowered Count Dooku, and the guy who gets Stronger and Stronger as the fight goes on.

Originally posted by Eminence

More flat out lying and poorly thought out bullshit.

Well wookipedia says Form 5 was created by Masters of Soresu, who felt a more offensive strategy was needed to actually win a fight.
and the darkjedibrotherhood site says you have to perfect soresu before mastering djem so due to the nature of form 5 being a continuation of soresu. and ALL sites say Anakin had Mastered both aspects of Form 5, Shien and Djem So. Your gna say its not cannon but where did you get you have to be "a master of multiple forms" to master form 7, because i can only find that on sites like wookipedia.

also Vader was learning Juyo by RODV. So he must have been a master of multiple forms by then as well. So its quite clear he must of at Least Mastered his Own form by ROTS, as RODV does not take place long after ROTS.


Originally posted by Eminence

I distinctly remember Dooku turning his back on Anakin and kicking him into a wall.

Dooku does, Obi-Wan does.

I'd fully expect for you to conveniently ignore the first one, despite the fact that the video's linked in the very post you responded to, but pretending that Obi-Wan never breached Anakin's defenses is a new low for you.

They dnt get past his saber defences. Kicking is something different. Otherwise your claiming Obiwans soresu defences were breached several times by Anakin when he kept kicking him, and by Dooku when he foprce choked him???
Anakins proved several times Kicking and Force pushing him doesnt stop him. And for GOD's sakes Obiwas didnt outduel Anakin. He tactically outsmarted a guy whos head was in a complete mess.

Originally posted by Eminence
Educate yourself. Ignoring the body hits, as well as the segment of the novel pointing out that at one point, Obi-Wan had Anakin unarmed and at his mercy, the duel ends with Obi-Wan cutting off three of Anakin's limbs at once.

Obi Wan had him at his mercy when he did a tirck on his mechanical arm. Thats hardly the defintion of outdueling someone. Oh and just before that Anakin force pushed Kenobi and had him completely winded(the novel suggests Anakin was better with the force than Obiwan).


Originally posted by Eminence
Your "general infromation" = complete bullshit.

I'm not familiar with Djem So according to DARTH POWER.

Youve probably not read much on Djem So. Its lethal in sword fighting.
If you have the Physical Strength to use it, then its probably the best duelling form to use, even better than Makashi. Thats why of all the forms Kasim advised Bane to use Djem So as he had the Strngth and Power to make the most of it.

Originally posted by Eminence
I'm going to start picking on your spelling and grammar next post. There's a veritable goldmine there.

Not bothered. Whatever gives you a buzz.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Good God, are you high? "Deflect Vaapad?" What the f*ck?


And are you saying that Djem So is a defensive form like Soresu? Or are you saying that Anakin's knowledge of Soresu will serve him well in a fight? Because if it's the latter, then why do you think Mace's intricate mastery of ALL the forms wouldn't serve him well?

Form 5 was formed by Soresu masters as a continuation of the soresu, but with and emphasis of attacking back. It was seen not to be practile to wait for an openiong to attack.

Soresu deflects away randomly whilst Form 5 deflects the attack back at the Opponent, and Djem So after doing this and throwing the opponent off balance, continues to leash out powerful attacks to completely dominate the opponent. Theres nothing that suggests this wuldnt work on Vapaad.

As for Mace's multiple forms, are you suggesting hes going to slip in and out of vapaad? because if he does hes going to lose any speed or power advantage he may have.
also whatever form he uses, Soresu is the Best for defence, and Djem So the best for Deflecting Maces attack back at him.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Mace is said to be on the same level as Yoda. No way is Anakin.


How is Mace on the same level as Yoda?

In Speed? No

In the Force? No

Even in duelling? No

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Form 5 was formed by Soresu masters as a continuation of soresu, but with an emphasis on attacking back. It was seen not to be practicle to wait for an opening to attack.

Soresu deflects away randomly whilst Form 5 deflects the attack back at the Opponent, and Djem So after doing this and throwing the opponent off balance, continues to leash out powerful attacks to completely dominate the opponent. Theres nothing that suggests this wuldnt work on Vapaad.

As for Mace's multiple forms, are you suggesting hes going to slip in and out of vapaad? because if he does hes going to lose any speed or power advantage he may have.
also whatever form he uses, Soresu is the Best for defence, and Djem So the best for Deflecting Maces attack back at him.

Eminence
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well the previous portions of the fight suggest that even if Dooku did try to kill anakin at that point, he probably culdnt considering Anakin was lying on the floor and Dooku still culdnt kill him. As long as Anakin has his Saber hes still in the picture.

Define powerful.

N-Canon scene; nothing of the sort happened in the movie, so it's a contradiction by the novel.

Vaapad was conceived by a high level master of multiple forms and perfected with the assistance of a high level, legendary master of all forms. The idea that it is a comparatively inferior dueling form is ridiculous, and what's even more ridiculous is that

Which he obviously isn't.

When Anakin punches holes through durasteel, lands six blows on an equally powerful brawler before he can blink, is noted to be a "high level of multiple forms," or does anything considerably impressive with telekinesis while not under the influence of the dark side, you let me know.

This is at least the seventh time I've had to address this. No one is arguing that Anakin isn't powerful; the point is that he's almost never capable of actually using his power in an even moderately impressive manner unless he's under the influence of the dark side.

Under the growing influence of the dark side.

The fight probably won't last long enough for him to capitalize on that, thanks to Mace's significantly superior speed. If it does, there's still shatterpoint.

That doesn't mean Anakin needs to have mastered Soresu too, nimrod. It means the creators of the form did.

Prove it's canon.

With no irrefutable canon backing.

Fightsaber.

It was noted that he drew on techniques from the various forms and blended them into his own, not that he mastered any them.

Yeah.

You're limiting everything here to a pure lightsaber duel, which is retarded. The only duels in the entire saga to not feature melee or Force attacks of some sort in the midst of combat are the AotC ones; fists and the Force are factors here, and Mace is better with both.

Which doesn't mean Obi-Wan didn't breach his defenses.

Good job.

It's combat, not fencing. Anything goes.

Stop making excuses.

The novel doesn't detail the part where they're both evenly matched in the Force contest.

I know what it is, thanks. As I said, I'm not familiar with the bullshit "deflekt powur" version that you've dreamed up.

Red Nemesis
I hate this: no one is saying interesting things, nowhere else] has any threads and I can't see an argument against Mace here. This isn't any fun at all and] I have to study moar ecological science tonight than I learned during class the past two years. Ludicrous.

Eminence
Yeah, he's substantially less fun than he was yesterday. Maybe it's an even day odd day thing.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes i feel like the guy who completely overpowered Count Dooku is easily in the same league as Mace. Unless your claiming Count Dooku is no where near Mace's league, then I can understand why you wuldnt think Anakin would even hav a chance against Mace.

And no being as Powerful as Mace doesnt mean you can take down Palpatine, because only Vapaad can form a Superconducting loop to temporarly put the user in the same league as someone like Palpatine. This is where ABC doesnt work. However the ABC logic does work with Anakin, Dooku and Mace in the sense that Anakin must at least be as Powerful as Mace(whether he beats him in a fight or not). Dood. Dood! Anakin overpowered Dooku due a sudden increase in power, strength, precog. skill etc. He achieved this through "teh Z0ne." Which was a Dark mentality. Which is gonna f/uck Anakin over when Mace Vaapad's his ass.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Dood. Dood! Anakin overpowered Dooku due a sudden increase in power, strength, precog. skill etc. He achieved this through "teh Z0ne." Which was a Dark mentality. Which is gonna f/uck Anakin over when Mace Vaapad's his ass.

according to the novel he stopped holding back. previously he was always holding back.
and so fine he uses his rage, so mace will match him in strength. Then its going to be Vapaad vs. Djem So. I dnt see any evidence that Vapaad would prevail considering Djem So is designed for duelling. Perhaps Vapaad will match it at most.
and even if Mace wins due to Vappad's metaphysical it just shows Mace might win a fight same way he won agianst Sidious. It doesnt show Mace is more powerful or outclasses anakin in any way(apart from metaphysical properties in fighting against rage)

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Eminence
N-Canon scene; nothing of the sort happened in the movie, so it's a contradiction by the novel.

The novel gives a more detailed version than the film. doesnt mean you can dismiss the novel. its cannon.

Originally posted by Eminence
Vaapad was conceived by a high level master of multiple forms and perfected with the assistance of a high level, legendary master of all forms. The idea that it is a comparatively inferior dueling form is ridiculous, and what's even more ridiculous is that

Do you know most jedis dnt train to sword fight each other but to fight droids and stuff. theres nothing anywhere that Vapaad was designed for duelling. Im sure its a great duelling form. But I seriously doubt its superior to Djem So in technical duellin skill.

and your talking about Sora Bulq(with the assistance of a high level, legendary master of all forms.) right?? yeah Bulq was completely outduelled by Dooku when using Vapaad! Because Makashi is simply superior to Vapaad in duelling because it was designed for that!! As Djem So was Specifically designed for that too, and is known to even overpower makashi.

Originally posted by Eminence
When Anakin punches holes through durasteel, lands six blows on an equally powerful brawler before he can blink, is noted to be a "high level of multiple forms," or does anything considerably impressive with telekinesis while not under the influence of the dark side, you let me know.

WHO CARES ABOUT HIGH LEVEL MASTER OF MULTIPLE FORMS??!!!
SO was Sora Bulq, and Dooku tooled him!! Thats not gna help, and until you can tell me which forms hes specifically mastered, youve got no argument. Mace isnt gna slip in and out of Vapaad.. this is gna be Vapaad vs. Djem So in Duelling alone.

Telekinisis will be moot, as Anakins proven he can take telekenetic attacks form Dooku.

And who says its all about feats?? when have we seen Yoda or Sidious punch through durasteel?? But by the way Anakin did punch the crap out of an IG-88(type) Bounty hunter droid.. Anakins strngth and speed has been reffered to as possibly the best of all the jedis. Thats all we need to know. Have you seen how fast Anakins been shown in the new animation. Was Mace shown to be significantly faster?? No!

Under the growing influence of the dark side.

Originally posted by Eminence
The fight probably won't last long enough for him to capitalize on that, thanks to Mace's significantly superior speed. If it does, there's still shatterpoint.

theres nothing to say or show him to be significantly faster. If Mace is faster it will be slightly faster at most, as we already know hes no where near as fast as Sidious and we already know Anakin was a bit fast for Dooku to handle(whose been toe to toe with Yoda's speed)...

Also Djem So aims to dominate the opponent... which will nullify any speed advantage Mace may have.

Originally posted by Eminence
That doesn't mean Anakin needs to have mastered Soresu too, nimrod. It means the creators of the form did.

Dumbass it mean Djem So by its nature has the defences of Soresu incprorated into it. So it doesnt matter.

Originally posted by Eminence
It was noted that he drew on techniques from the various forms and blended them into his own, not that he mastered any them.

Including Juyo, for which hed have to be "a multiple master of multiple forms" like you keep going on about. Your being a hypocryte with your own arguments. Using them when suiting you. But denying them when not convinient to you.

Theres So much Proof of Anakins Mastery. Dooku never saw a better user of Djem So. He gave Anakin more credit in his style than he did Obi1 on his.
Anakin and Obi-wan were identical balde for blade. 2 complementary halves of the same warrior. By RODV he must have had to been a high level master of multiple forms. Not long after ROTS.
If thats what your argument is based on, that Anakin lacks technical skill, then your argument is Total Rubbish!!


Originally posted by Eminence
The novel doesn't detail the part where they're both evenly matched in the Force contest.

Yes the novel shows Anakin to be better. Even in the movie, Obiwan gets winded from the force contest, while Anakin doesnt even look like it affected him, and stright away hes all over Obiwan.
The odd force puch from mace will do nothing.

Originally posted by Eminence
I know what it is, thanks. As I said, I'm not familiar with the bullshit "deflekt powur" version that you've dreamed up.

So you dnt even know what your talking about then.
Form 5 was designed to deflesct attacks back on to the opponent, instead of deflecting them away randomly like Soresu.

Borbarad
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
according to the novel he stopped holding back. previously he was always holding back.


Can it be that certain concepts, for example "cause and effect" are completely foreign to you? Anakin didn't just "stop" to hold back. He was taunted to unleash his anger by a person he hated more than anybody else. You still act as if he could reproduce this state at will. His duel against Obi-Wan shows quite clearly that he's not able to do the job, proving your basic assumption wrong and thereby your entire argument.



This is laughable. Yoda calls Vaapad the deadliest lightsaber form there is - apparently for a reason. He even outright states that Mace Windu would be the only one to stop somebody like Depa Billaba (a Vaapad master). Was it a Djem So user that overpowered Darth Sidious and reached a stalemate with Count Dooku in terms of lightsaber mastery? No? It was Mace Windu? The Vaapad user? Thanks for the clarification.

Which is still ignoring the fact that Mace Windu had mastered Djem So, giving him a natural advantage because he knows Anakin's technique while Anakin knows jack shit about Vaapad.



I'm again waiting for you showing us where Anakin puts his fists straight through durasteel or breaks somebodys arm buy just grapping it. Until you can come up with something like that, the source material suggests that Mace Windu is - physically - stronger than Anakin Skywalker. I'm afraid.



No. The novel outright contradicts the movie version of the duel, a situation in which the movie - plain and simply - overwrites the novel. Check the Lucasfilm Canon Policy for details.



Yeah. You are aware of the fact that Djem So is a form which was tailored for deflecting blaster bolts, right? An in terms of duelling ability, I'd prefer unconnected fast movements over baseball-bat swinging action each day. Just think about it.




I'd really love to hear what Dooku's mastery of Makashi had to do with him owning Sora Bulq using force lightning. I mean, hey, is there some wierd Makashi property that grants the user +10 force lightning damage or what?



No. No. And...no.

a)
Dooku tooled Sora using the force. I don't see where you want to draw conclusions to the lightsaber ability of the combatants there.

b)
Mastery of multiple forms doesn't mean you have to "slip in and out of forms". It just equips you with a decent amount of knowledge regarding those forms.

c)
It would be Djem So VS Vaapad and the Shatterpoint ability. You really have enough confidence in Anakin's abilities to think about him being able to overcome the guy that overpowered Darth Sidious? Thus contradicting George Lucas himself? You really think the guy that has "BMF" written on the activation plate of his lightsaber will go down against Anakin Skywalker? Lmao.



Where exactly? I hope you're not referring to the scene in the RotS novel that is retconned by the movie...



No. Mace was just shown to grind an entire droid army into tiny metal pieces using nothing but his fists...



Lmao. Firstly: Mace is as fast as Sidious. The novel and the movie make that pretty clear. Second: Anakin is faster than Dooku? Where exactly? He's stronger, when you refer to grapping Dooku's arm and cutting his hands off - faster? And Dooku on one level with Yoda in terms of speed? You must have missed AotC, DR and pretty much any damn source that depicts Yoda fighting. The little green fellow manages to deflect more than 40 blaster bolts in less than 30 seconds in the scene in RotS, in which he and Obi-Wan fight their way into the temple. You really want to tell us that Dooku (or Anakin for that matter) could pull something like that off? Prove up or shut up, I'd say.



What a great argument? Vaapad aims to enjoy a fight and win it. This will nullify anything. Huargh. See...I can make up bullshit myself.



Excuse me, Lord Blahblah. You are aware of the fact that the lightsaber forms respect combat philosophys and that Djem So and Soresu happen to be the exact opposites in terms of philosophy? So I wonder, how someone should blend them? Reverse Offense? Aggressive blocking? roll eyes (sarcastic)

And it should be noted that it's explicitely stated that after Mustafar, Vader started to encorporate Soresu movements into this style. How does that fit into the picture if Djem So already includes Soresu, huh? Oh right: It doesn't because you're simply wrong on that issue.



Oh. How many Djem So users has Dooku seen, eh?



Nope. It was designed to deflect blaster bolts back on the opponent, not attacks in general. So unless Mace decides to attack Anakin with a blaster rifle...

Lightsnake
Nai, I'm mostly staying out of this, but are you really going to make the argument 'how many Djem So users has Dooku seen?' The man's a combat veteran, a legendary saber instructor and made sure to keep up with dueling abilities in an age that included Agen Kolar. If Dooku believes Anakin to be the best Djem So user he's ever seen, that does mean a lot.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Borbarad
Can it be that certain concepts, for example "cause and effect" are completely foreign to you? Anakin didn't just "stop" to hold back. He was taunted to unleash his anger by a person he hated more than anybody else. You still act as if he could reproduce this state at will. His duel against Obi-Wan shows quite clearly that he's not able to do the job, proving your basic assumption wrong and thereby your entire argument.

He was also a match for Dooku in Sabers during the clone wars. So hes at least that good on a normal day. The ROTS fight against Dooku showed what he is capable of when he stops holding back, and unleashes that Rage of his coupled with his practically unlimited force reserves.


Originally posted by Borbarad
This is laughable. Yoda calls Vaapad the deadliest lightsaber form there is - apparently for a reason. He even outright states that Mace Windu would be the only one to stop somebody like Depa Billaba (a Vaapad master). Was it a Djem So user that overpowered Darth Sidious and reached a stalemate with Count Dooku in terms of lightsaber mastery? No? It was Mace Windu? The Vaapad user? Thanks for the clarification


Deadliest is a bit vague. Deadliest in what? Duelling technical skill? Not neceesarily. Each form has its strengths. Each form has is the best at something. Makashi at Duelling Skill. Soresu at defence. Form 5 at deflecting attacks back at the opponent. Vapaad is deadly because of the Speed and Power it gives the user, as well as very technically skilled. However that doesnt make it as good as Soresu at defending, or as skilled as Makashi at duelling, or as good at deflecting attacks back to the opponent as Form 5.
And are you suggesting Yoda culdnt stop Depa. As your saying only Mace windu culd?!
Another Vapaad Master who actually developed it along with Mace is Sora Bulq who actually got tooled in duelling by Count Dooku. Why if Vapaad is the deadliest?? Because Makashi is better for pure blade to blade duelling.
And as for Overpowering Sidious, Anakin never faced him in a lightsaber duel. Of course Sidious would tool Anakin with the Force. In fact he even had Mace with his lightning which was "Beyond Vapaad"(ROTS Novel). But in a Saber fight alone accroding to Nick Gillard Anakin is "Up there with Sidious". Anakin, Mace, Yoda and Sidious were all given level9 ratings by him. And thats how he choreographed the G-Cannon saber fights of the movies.
As for matching Dooku in Sabers... After Anakin was knighted Dooku never proved himself superior in Sabers to Anakin. He matched him in the clone wars and destroyed him in ROTS.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which is still ignoring the fact that Mace Windu had mastered Djem So, giving him a natural advantage because he knows Anakin's technique while Anakin knows jack shit about Vaapad.


Prove Mace mastered Djem So and not Shien. Actually prove he mastered any aspect of Form 5 first, and then prove it was Djem So as most users of form 5 used shien.
And Dooku also knew of Djem So.. didnt help him much.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. You are aware of the fact that Djem So is a form which was tailored for deflecting blaster bolts, right? An in terms of duelling ability, I'd prefer unconnected fast movements over baseball-bat swinging action each day. Just think about it..


NO. Wrong. Shien was. Your proving your arguing without knowing about Form 5. Go read more about it. Djem So was a variant of Form 5 to be applied in duelling.



Originally posted by Borbarad
I'd really love to hear what Dooku's mastery of Makashi had to do with him owning Sora Bulq using force lightning. I mean, hey, is there some wierd Makashi property that grants the user +10 force lightning damage or what

What are you talking about? He was completely outduelling him before the FL. He even disarmed him of his Shoto, and was clear the whole time Dooku was in complete control of the duel.



Originally posted by Borbarad
It would be Djem So VS Vaapad and the Shatterpoint ability. You really have enough confidence in Anakin's abilities to think about him being able to overcome the guy that overpowered Darth Sidious? Thus contradicting George Lucas himself? You really think the guy that has "BMF" written on the activation plate of his lightsaber will go down against Anakin Skywalker? Lmao.


For GOD's sakes.. Mace has a better shot at sidious because he can temporarily match his speed and strength via a superconducting loop. A>B>C argument not working here. iv expained this a million times. why do i have to repeat myself??!

Also Lucas says you have to be mace or yoda to compete with palpatine. he didnt say you have to be yoda or sidious to compete with mace.

Maybe Mace is better with the force than anakin, so good enough to compete with sidious, whilst anakin is not. But that doesnt mean anakin is not good enough to go up against mace.
Oh and the guy who has BMF written on his wallet had to beg Lucas for a part in the prequels. Now thats Lmao!





Originally posted by Borbarad
Lmao. Firstly: Mace is as fast as Sidious. The novel and the movie make that pretty clear. Second: Anakin is faster than Dooku? Where exactly? He's stronger, when you refer to grapping Dooku's arm and cutting his hands off - faster? And Dooku on one level with Yoda in terms of speed?


Can you read? the novel makes it clear that Mace accepts Palpatines faster, so creates the superconducting loop between the 2 of them so he can match him in that. Iv expalined this to you before. Why do I have to repeat myself??
Anakin faster than dooku "that blue blade of his was moving faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric blue haze"
I said Dooku went toe-to-toe with Yoda, so had the speed to compete, not that hes as fast.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Nope. It was designed to deflect blaster bolts back on the opponent, not attacks in general. So unless Mace decides to attack Anakin with a blaster rifle...

No that was shien. Djem So was the same philosophy but a variant to be applied specifically for duelling.
Im bored by the number of times iv explained this now.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Deadliest is a bit vague. Deadliest in what? Duelling technical skill? Not neceesarily. Each form has its strengths. Each form has is the best at something. Makashi at Duelling Skill. Soresu at defence. Form 5 at deflecting attacks back at the opponent. Vapaad is deadly because of the Speed and Power it gives the user, as well as very technically skilled. However that doesnt make it as good as Soresu at defending, or as skilled as Makashi at duelling, or as good at deflecting attacks back to the opponent as Form 5.
And are you suggesting Yoda culdnt stop Depa. As your saying only Mace windu culd?!
Another Vapaad Master who actually developed it along with Mace is Sora Bulq who actually got tooled in duelling by Count Dooku. Why if Vapaad is the deadliest?? Because Makashi is better for pure blade to blade duelling.
And as for Overpowering Sidious, Anakin never faced him in a lightsaber duel. Of course Sidious would tool Anakin with the Force. In fact he even had Mace with his lightning which was "Beyond Vapaad"(ROTS Novel). But in a Saber fight alone accroding to Nick Gillard Anakin is "Up there with Sidious". Anakin, Mace, Yoda and Sidious were all given level9 ratings by him. And thats how he choreographed the G-Cannon saber fights of the movies.
As for matching Dooku in Sabers... After Anakin was knighted Dooku never proved himself superior in Sabers to Anakin. He matched him in the clone wars and destroyed him in ROTS.




Prove Mace mastered Djem So and not Shien. Actually prove he mastered any aspect of Form 5 first, and then prove it was Djem So as most users of form 5 used shien.
And Dooku also knew of Djem So.. didnt help him much.






NO. Wrong. Shien was. Your proving your arguing without knowing about Form 5. Go read more about it. Djem So was a variant of Form 5 to be applied in duelling.





What are you talking about? He was completely outduelling him before the FL. He even disarmed him of his Shoto, and was clear the whole time Dooku was in complete control of the duel.






For GOD's sakes.. Mace has a better shot at sidious because he can temporarily match his speed and strength via a superconducting loop. A>B>C argument not working here. iv expained this a million times. why do i have to repeat myself??!

Also Lucas says you have to be mace or yoda to compete with palpatine. he didnt say you have to be yoda or sidious to compete with mace.

Maybe Mace is better with the force than anakin, so good enough to compete with sidious, whilst anakin is not. But that doesnt mean anakin is not good enough to go up against mace.
Oh and the guy who has BMF written on his wallet had to beg Lucas for a part in the prequels. Now thats Lmao!








Can you read? the novel makes it clear that Mace accepts Palpatines faster, so creates the superconducting loop between the 2 of them so he can match him in that. Iv expalined this to you before. Why do I have to repeat myself??
Anakin faster than dooku "that blue blade of his was moving faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric blue haze"
I said Dooku went toe-to-toe with Yoda, so had the speed to compete, not that hes as fast.





No that was shien. Djem So was the same philosophy but a variant to be applied specifically for duelling.
Im bored by the number of times iv explained this now. Are you injecting your own feelings towards how Vaapad works to canon? Deadliest form is the deadliest form. Vaapad=deadlier than Djem So.

And Sora Bulq never "mastered" Vaapad. It mastered him. You recall it driving him to the Dark Side?

And are you not listening? Mace IS A MASTER OF EVERY FORM. Anything Anakin throws at him with Djem So is gonna be something Mace is familiar. The same can not be said about Anakin reacting to Vaapad. What's Anakin gonna do when he's fighting to the death a style he knows jack-f/ucking-shit about?

And to answer my own question, no, you're not listening. Vaapad doesn't just turn Mace's inner Darkness to strength, it also reflects the opponent's Darkness back at them. If Mace taunts Anakin into "teh Z0ne" (why a Jedi would so such a thing is ridiculous anyways), then Mace will reflect "teh Z0ne's" Dark strength back on to Anakin.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Are you injecting your own feelings towards how Vaapad works to canon? Deadliest form is the deadliest form. Vaapad=deadlier than Djem So.

And Sora Bulq never "mastered" Vaapad. It mastered him. You recall it driving him to the Dark Side?

And are you not listening? Mace IS A MASTER OF EVERY FORM. Anything Anakin throws at him with Djem So is gonna be something Mace is familiar. The same can not be said about Anakin reacting to Vaapad. What's Anakin gonna do when he's fighting to the death a style he knows jack-f/ucking-shit about?

And to answer my own question, no, you're not listening. Vaapad doesn't just turn Mace's inner Darkness to strength, it also reflects the opponent's Darkness back at them. If Mace taunts Anakin into "teh Z0ne" (why a Jedi would so such a thing is ridiculous anyways), then Mace will reflect "teh Z0ne's" Dark strength back on to Anakin.

And what does that mean its deadlier? Is it better at defending than soresu? No. Is it more technically skilled at duelling than makashi? No. Djem So is designed specifically for duelling combat. Vapaad is not. So you cant say just because its overall the "deadliest" that its better than Djem So at duelling.

And Mace is a Master of EVERY FORM now?? and every variant of every form?? when did that happen??
Theres no proof Mace has mastered Djem So. Not many people use it. Users of Form 5 usually use Shien. And Anakin does not need to recognise the style to deal with it, and do what he does best.
And Vapaad reflecting Anakins darkness back at him creates a superconducting loop between the 2 of them. So thatll keep Mace's strength up with Anakins as Anakin gets stronger. It wnt just reflect it back at Anakin and finish him off.
And even if Anakin is not in the zone we know he was a match for Dooku in Sabers.
Look Anakin was a level 9 duellist by ROTS. To think that he would not even be a threat to Mace in Sabers is just silly.
A

The Ground
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And what does that mean its deadlier? Is it better at defending than soresu? No. Is it more technically skilled at duelling than makashi? No. Djem So is designed specifically for duelling combat. Vapaad is not. So you cant say just because its overall the "deadliest" that its better than Djem So at duelling.

And Mace is a Master of EVERY FORM now?? and every variant of every form?? when did that happen??
Theres no proof Mace has mastered Djem So. Not many people use it. Users of Form 5 usually use Shien. And Anakin does not need to recognise the style to deal with it, and do what he does best.
And Vapaad reflecting Anakins darkness back at him creates a superconducting loop between the 2 of them. So thatll keep Mace's strength up with Anakins as Anakin gets stronger. It wnt just reflect it back at Anakin and finish him off.
And even if Anakin is not in the zone we know he was a match for Dooku in Sabers.
Look Anakin was a level 9 duellist by ROTS. To think that he would not even be a threat to Mace in Sabers is just silly.
A

Mace can also be in teh z0ne by giving himself completely to Vapaad. When he was dueling Sidious, he allowed his body to automatically fight for him, thus increasing his reaction time. If he wasn't in teh z0ne, I am fairly certain that Sidious would have handled him, because even Mace admits he is faster.

To make it even simpler for you to understand:
Mace+Vapaad>Sidious
Yoda-Vapaad<Sidious
Mace+Vapaad<Yoda+Vapaad

So if Yoda had mastered Vapaad, he would have beaten Sidious, and both of them are stronger than Anakin in speed and skill. As far as lightsaber forms go, Mace is definitely superior. I am not going to even mention Shatterpoint.

Your Dooku argument is useless because Mace would best him just as well.

Also I don't believe you understand how a superconducting loop works.

ares834
Originally posted by The Ground
To make it even simpler for you to understand:
Mace+Vapaad>Sidious
Yoda-Vapaad<Sidious
Mace+Vapaad<Yoda+Vapaad

So if Yoda had mastered Vapaad, he would have beaten Sidious, and both of them are stronger than Anakin in speed and skill. As far as lightsaber forms go, Mace is definitely superior. I am not going to even mention Shatterpoint.

I want to stay out of this fight but I need to say something. The Yoda and Mace Windu one is completley unfounded. Heck, I doubt Yoda would be able to master Vaapad to the degree that Mace perfected it as hYoda does not enjoy fighting while Mace does.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by The Ground
Mace can also be in teh z0ne by giving himself completely to Vapaad. When he was dueling Sidious, he allowed his body to automatically fight for him, thus increasing his reaction time. If he wasn't in teh z0ne, I am fairly certain that Sidious would have handled him, because even Mace admits he is faster.

Your only proving my point. The Speed and power mace had while fighting Sidious was only applicable to that fight. He wnt be that fast or powerful when fighting Anakin.
And Nick Gillard called Anakin a level 9 duelist for the Movie. Not just for the fight with Dooku. So saying the "one off in the zone" is the only time Anakin was a level 9 duelist is wrong.

Originally posted by The Ground
As far as lightsaber forms go, Mace is definitely superior. I am not going to even mention Shatterpoint..

Well NG has put them both in the same league.
Is Vapaad superior to Djem So in Sword Duelling? Djem So was designed specifically for that. Vapaad wasnt. And since when was shatterpoint a guranteed victory in a lightsaber duel? He has to get past Anakins defences first. And like iv already mentioned the starting point of Form 5(Shien and Djem So) is Soresu. It was created by Soresu masters who wanted to add Attacks to their own form. So Djem So has a very good defence.


Originally posted by The Ground
Your Dooku argument is useless because Mace would best him just as well...

Maybe. Although theres no proof of that. Dark Rendezvous calls Dooku and Mace equal in lightsaber combat. But even if your right, that would only make Mace and Anakin in the same leauge. Lets face it, Anakin overpowered Dooku quite badly. So if your saying Mace would overpower Anakin just as badly, then How Much More Powerful are you saying Mace is to Dooku?? Because by that argument your making Dooku into a complete amateur in comparison to Mace.

Originally posted by The Ground
Also I don't believe you understand how a superconducting loop works.

I beleive it would help Mace keep up with Anakin's ever growing strength just as it helped Mace keep up with Sidious's speed. Your free to correct me if im wrong.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your only proving my point. The Speed and power mace had while fighting Sidious was only applicable to that fight. He wnt be that fast or powerful when fighting Anakin.

*You're*

Wrong


Vaapad is fueled by Mace- it enhances his speed and strength even when not fighting a Dark Sider. (As shown by the descriptions in Shatterpoint.)



Wrong. He was only 'level nine' with the power of the Dark side. ("The dark side makes all the difference" or some such.)


1. Why is NG a canon source now?
2. When did he do this?


Isn't this an old meme? The ADs used the logik that 'Makashi is designed for dueling so the (teh) Count could beat anyone. The form is not as important as the level to which it was mastered.

By all accounts, Mace Windu has mastered the lightsaber to a far greater degree than Anakin; not only was he proficient enough with a saber to design his own style, he based his (presumably) improved style ("the completion of Juyo"wink on a style that requires mastery of other forms. Every single fact about Mace Windu suggests that he mastered his style and the lightsaber itself to the greatest possible degree. We don't have such a plethora of evidence for Anakin.

And feel free to use the 'Quick Spellcheck' function at the bottom of your screen.


Before you say what you think, THINK! Shatterpoint is a method to find the weaknesses and stress lines in both situations and items. And people. Shatterpoint would be used to break the defenses, not after it had already happened.


You are putting an inordinate amount of emphasis on the cursory explanations of style. All 'styles' will have to have some form of defense, if only to allow their user to survive long enough to attack. You didn't see Maul (who used the 'lulz aggressive' Juyo form) ignoring defense during the fight, did you? Nope. In combat each form must be able to fill all roles. The difference rises when one asks what parts to emphasize in order to win.




Mace/Dooku is another matter entirely.


Mace/Dooku is another matter entirely. Don't ABC.



The 'loop is only applicable when Mace's opponent is stronger than him and a Dark Sider. Anakin is not stronger (speed or strength) than Mace unless he taps the Dark Side. If he taps the Dark Side then he is subject to the 'loop. The only way Skywalker would have a chance is if he was more skilled than Mace. Their respective levels of mastery of their forms (and Mace's greater quantity of learnings coupled with his innovation of a high end form) suggest that this is not the case.

The Ground
Well said.

Red Nemesis
Thanks smile

The Ground
Originally posted by ares834
I want to stay out of this fight but I need to say something. The Yoda and Mace Windu one is completley unfounded. Heck, I doubt Yoda would be able to master Vaapad to the degree that Mace perfected it as hYoda does not enjoy fighting while Mace does.

Enjoyment of fighting has nothing to do with it. I was merely pointing out that Yoda, a master of EVERY FORM, couldn't beat Sidious, while Mace could using only Vapaad. Therefore Vapaad>Every other form.

Advent
Shatterpoint is a rather irrelevant factor in this fight, since we have no idea what Anakin's shatterpoint is and/or how it could be capitalized on.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Advent
Shatterpoint is a rather irrelevant factor in this fight, since we have no idea what Anakin's shatterpoint is and/or how it could be capitalized on. Padme. Just saying. The guy's a wuss.


But yeah, if Anakin has a weakness, Shatterpoint would find it.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Wrong. He was only 'level nine' with the power of the Dark side. ("The dark side makes all the difference" or some such.)

which he used in every fight in ROTS. Therefore he was a level 9 in ROTS, as NG rated him for the movie, not for a specific fight.


Originally posted by Red Nemesis

1. Why is NG a canon source now?
2. When did he do this?.)

1. Because he choreographed the fights in the G Cannon movie. You think he didnt have conversations with Lucas about how powerful they were supposed to be??!!

2. In the making of ROTS



Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Before you say what you think, THINK! Shatterpoint is a method to find the weaknesses and stress lines in both situations and items. And people. Shatterpoint would be used to break the defenses, not after it had already happened.

I am thinking. Seeing a weakness is one thing. Taking advantage of it it something else. Otherwise your basically saying Mace would win ANY Saber fight because he has shatterpoint. And yet Dooku and Yoda used to outduel him and Qui-Gon used to draw with him in saber sparring, and yet he always had shatterpoint.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

You are putting an inordinate amount of emphasis on the cursory explanations of style. All 'styles' will have to have some form of defense, if only to allow their user to survive long enough to attack. You didn't see Maul (who used the 'lulz aggressive' Juyo form) ignoring defense during the fight, did you? Nope. In combat each form must be able to fill all roles. The difference rises when one asks what parts to emphasize in order to win..

Form 5 is a continuation of Form 3. So defence is very strong. Probably better than any other form apart from 3.



Originally posted by Red Nemesis

The 'loop is only applicable when Mace's opponent is stronger than him and a Dark Sider. Anakin is not stronger (speed or strength) than Mace unless he taps the Dark Side. If he taps the Dark Side then he is subject to the 'loop. The only way Skywalker would have a chance is if he was more skilled than Mace. Their respective levels of mastery of their forms (and Mace's greater quantity of learnings coupled with his innovation of a high end form) suggest that this is not the case.

He uses the dark side.. makes him stronger than mace. The loop comes into play, so mace ends up being just as strong anyway.

Then its Vapaad vs. Djem So. Djem So is a lethal duelling form, so i dnt see any gurantee of Mace winning.
Sidious was also a darksider, and the loop came into play, then Sidious and Mace were equal, and Mace had to Physically overpower him. I dnt see him doing that to anakin.
As for the mutiple forms he may use... Anakin also has "Proficiency" in multiple forms, including Ataru and Shien + knows Obiwans soresu moves inside out.
And no matter what Mace uses, Djem So can deflect the attacks back onto Mace. And only Makashi is more "technically" skilled for duelling than Djem So. And Anakin is "a fine a user" of Djem So as Dooku has ever seen.

The Ground
When the loop comes into play, it nullifies the strength and speed of Anakins attacks which are fueled by the dark side, and are reflected back against him.

Why is this so hard to understand?

The level 9 duelist thing is BS. Dooku was raping Anakin before he used the dark side, so that's the only thing that let him beat Dooku. Not his speed, not his skill, not his strength, but by tapping into the dark side.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by The Ground
When the loop comes into play, it nullifies the strength and speed of Anakins attacks which are fueled by the dark side, and are reflected back against him.
Why is this so hard to understand?



So when Mace fought Palpatine Sidious's strength and speed were nullified?? No! His ADVANTAGES of strength and speed were nullified. The dark sides not just reflected back, but then goes back to Mace causing a superconducting loop, giving Mace the same strength and speed as Sidious. Thats why they were equal. Until Mace tactically got an advantage, and "physically" overpowered him.


Originally posted by The Ground
The level 9 duelist thing is BS.

Ill beleive NG over you.

Originally posted by The Ground
Dooku was raping Anakin before he used the dark side, so that's the only thing that let him beat Dooku. Not his speed, not his skill, not his strength, but by tapping into the dark side.

Dooku kicked Anakin to the ground once. Yes that was a humiliating kick, but i wuldnt quite call it a rape. And apart from that one kick, Anakin wasnt once losing to Dooku, Dark Side or not.

And are you forgetting Anakin already matched Dooku (in Sabers at least) back in the clone wars. Dooku was better with the Force but Anakin took his force hits and kept on fighting. He basically fought him to a stand off months before ROTS. And Anakin was growing more powerful still.

The dark side in ROTS just finally stopped Anakin holding back. And Even before tapping the dark side Dooku was "Astonished" by Skywalkers "Pure Physical Power". He called him "A Destroyer Droid with a lightsaber." He was almost too fast for him as well "his blade flashing faster and faster until Dooku "Saw the room through an electric haze.."

He was also extremely skilled. First duping Dooku with Ataru and Shien, and then finally showing Dooku he was as fine a user of Djem So as Dooku had ever seen. A form which produces masses amount of kinetic energy like Shien, but designed specifically for swordplay, which is why even Dooku's Makashi had a difficult time dealing with it.

Borbarad
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was also a match for Dooku in Sabers during the clone wars. So hes at least that good on a normal day. The ROTS fight against Dooku showed what he is capable of when he stops holding back, and unleashes that Rage of his coupled with his practically unlimited force reserves.

I wonder, why you refuse to understand a simple concept: Anakin could just stop holding back because he was taunted to do it and hated the person being in front of him. This is not a state which Anakin can reach at will. Thus it doesn't matter for this fight.



I can't even decide where I should start here. The forms do just reflect certain philosophies of combat. Soresu focuses on defense, Makashi on efficiency, Djem So on strong counter-attacks, Vaapad focuses on speed and being unpredictable.
The point is: You can't argue fights solely based on lightsaber forms used by the opponents. Otherwise, just as example, nobody should be able to beat Dooku, because he uses the "ultimate refinement" of lightsaber to lightsaber combat. This is obviously not how it works.

The key to victory in lightsaber combat is not the combat form or duelling skill, it's attunement to the force. Kas'im notes that in "Path of Destruction" when telling Bane, that the latter has moved "beyond styles" because of his force attunement. He even tells him that a superior force user can beat an opponent with superior skill in the lightsaber department. Bane later demonstrates this by defeating Kas'im - and Anakin Skywalker also proves it when defeating Dooku.

The point here is: The very basement for Anakin's archievement in that area, is not his use / mastery of Djem So. It's his attunement to the force that allowed him to defeat Dooku, noted by the novel as "nullifying" Dooku's skill. Or do you want to tell us that Anakin's pure bladework exceeds that of the master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" who practiced the art for more than 7 decades? I don't think so.



I'm not suggesting anything here. I'm merely noting that Mace, apparently, think that he's the only one able to stop Depa.




Mace is the only person that mastered Vaapad...



Yes. And the man who dictates canon in the SW universe, namely George Lucas, claimed that only Mace and Yoda were able to content with the Emperor in time of RotS, noting that Anakin would have become able to do so, if he hadn't been injured on Mustafar. The point is: RotS Anakin would not be able to do the job, no matter what Gillard says.

This is the same Gillard, by the way, that put his own character, Cin Drallig, as the best duellist of the era and also mentioned, that the saberforms don't even exists. Nice canon source there, pal.



Urm. Without even questioning your interpretation of that fight scenes there: How does it matter? A duell between force users is never limited to bladework. And when the force got involved, Dooku simply owned Anakin each time. Anakin, in turn, can't even keep up with Obi-Wan Kenobi in the force master department, unless being in "the zone". So how would he deal with somebody like Mace Windu, who does even use Dark Side powers when he thinks he needs to do so?



It's irrelevant.
Mace, through mastery of Vaapad, must be a high proficient master of multiple forms and the only master of the deadliest among them. Does the same apply to Anakin? No. So obviously, as far as technical finesse in lightsaber duels is concerned, Mace has more up his sleeve than Anakin.

And no, Dooku's knowledge of Djem So didn't help him. But it just didn't help him because of Anakin practically unleashing his entire potential against the Sith Lord. We're talking about the same Dooku that floored Anakin before. But once Anakin was in the Zone, Dooku couldn't stop him any longer - not due to bladework, but due to force powers.



How does it matter? You take a form that focuses on heavy counter attacks and put it up against a form that focuses on unconnected and unpredictable, fast movements. I wonder how somebody counter-attacks unpredictable movements. Oh yes. By force guided prediction, meaning force mastery. That was it which kept Sidious alive versus Windu and once Windu distracted the Sith Lord, the latter lost the duel.

Anakin doesn't possess the force mastery of Sidious, as you mentioned yourself. So how would he manage to stay alive against Mace?



Yes. Because Dooku was a far superior tactician, force user and duelling expert - not just because "he used Makashi!!!111".



Are you nuts?
I'm tired of arguing this bullshit. Mace draws on an inner (read: inside himself) source of darkness in order to content with the speed of Sidious. He then reflects Sidious fear back at the Sith Lord (read: superconducting loop) in order to break the concentration of the Sith Lord and after that he disarms him using the Shatterpoint ability.

Windu demonstrates similiar speed when fighting Kar Vastor in Shatterpoint, hitting him six times before Vastor can even blink. He does again demonstrate similar speed when dealing with the droids on Dantooine. Face it: Mace speed has nothing to do with that situation, nor does it require that Sidious is his opponent, nor does Mace archieve that via the "superconducting loop".



He excludes the RotS version of Anakin from the list of people being able to compete with Sidious. If Anakin was as good as Mace in overall combat ability, he would be on the list. But he isn't because he can just reach that level when being put into this nice metaphysical state of being he reaches in his end with the duel with Dooku, when he simply "nullifies" the skill of the Sith Lord through his vast amounts of force energies. The point is: Since he can't repeat that at will, he can't get on the "level 9" at will. Gillard even mentions that he just put Anakin there because of that special abilities. Otherwise it would be illogical for Anakin to be defeated by Obi-Wan.



So, let me check: In general, Mace is maybe better with the force than Anakin. And you have absolutely no idea, if Anakin is better with a lightsaber (and only statements that point in the exact opposite direction). Still you think that Anakin has a good chance defeating Mace? Based on ... what?

Hewhoknowsall
@Nai, I agree w/you for the most part, but I think you got the Kas'im part mixed up: he said the OPPOSITE of what you said.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Nai, I agree w/you for the most part, but I think you got the Kas'im part mixed up: he said the OPPOSITE of what you said.

Just to clarify, here is the quote (Path of Destruction, paperback, page 180):

"As you already know, the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation. However, the equation is not so simple. Someone well trained in lightsabre combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force."

The Ground
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So when Mace fought Palpatine Sidious's strength and speed were nullified?? No! His ADVANTAGES of strength and speed were nullified. The dark sides not just reflected back, but then goes back to Mace causing a superconducting loop, giving Mace the same strength and speed as Sidious. Thats why they were equal. Until Mace tactically got an advantage, and "physically" overpowered him.

I was referring to Anakin, not Sidious. Try to pay attention.
Anakin is slower and weaker than Mace, so the loop would nullify the dark side fueling his attacks and would be made to serve Mace. The Sidious case is different because Sidious was faster than him and the loop would only bring his speed down to Mace's, instead of dispelling the speed and power fully, like it would for Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ill beleive NG over you.

You go ahead and beleive . I don't care what NG called him, Mace is faster, stronger, and has Shatterpoint. What does "level 9" even mean? Does it mean in technical skill? In what way is that relevant?


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku kicked Anakin to the ground once. Yes that was a humiliating kick, but i wuldnt quite call it a rape. And apart from that one kick, Anakin wasnt once losing to Dooku, Dark Side or not.

Ok, I admit that it wasn't a rape and I apologize. What I meant to say was that Anakin never showed anything special (even with his mastery of Djem So) until he used the dark side. Therefore Djem So did not win him the fight, it was the dark side. Which would be rendered useless by Vapaad.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And are you forgetting Anakin already matched Dooku (in Sabers at least) back in the clone wars.

Irrelevant.
See below.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was also extremely skilled. First duping Dooku with Ataru and Shien, and then finally showing Dooku he was as fine a user of Djem So as Dooku had ever seen.

WHY IS DOOKU CANON? I mean that's just ridiculous. I think you forget that Mace is stronger, faster, more technically skilled and has Shatterpoint.

Eminence
Originally posted by The Ground
WHY IS DOOKU CANON? I mean that's just ridiculous.Explain, please.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Borbarad
I wonder, why you refuse to understand a simple concept: Anakin could just stop holding back because he was taunted to do it and hated the person being in front of him. This is not a state which Anakin can reach at will. Thus it doesn't matter for this fight.

Anakin was taunted into using the dark side. After that he converted to the dark side anyway so it doenst matter. NG rates Anakin as a level 9 Saber duellist for ROTS, not just for the fight with Dooku.

And EVEN BEFORE BEING TAUNTED Dooku culdnt beat Anakin. He described him as being Impossibly Powerful. and was Astonished by his Sheer Physical Power, as well as his tremendous amounts of Force reserves.



Originally posted by Borbarad
I can't even decide where I should start here. The forms do just reflect certain philosophies of combat. Soresu focuses on defense, Makashi on efficiency, Djem So on strong counter-attacks, Vaapad focuses on speed and being unpredictable.

Hey we agree on something!

Originally posted by Borbarad
The point is: You can't argue fights solely based on lightsaber forms used by the opponents. Otherwise, just as example, nobody should be able to beat Dooku, because he uses the "ultimate refinement" of lightsaber to lightsaber combat. This is obviously not how it works.

I never said it depends soley on lightsaber forms. Iv just been explaining how technically skilled Anakin himself is in response to people saying Mace wins because he's mastered Vapaad.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The key to victory in lightsaber combat is not the combat form or duelling skill, it's attunement to the force. Kas'im notes that in "Path of Destruction" when telling Bane, that the latter has moved "beyond styles" because of his force attunement. He even tells him that a superior force user can beat an opponent with superior skill in the lightsaber department. Bane later demonstrates this by defeating Kas'im - and Anakin Skywalker also proves it when defeating Dooku..

And exactly in which of these departments was Anakin lacking. He had Tremedous amounts of Force Reserves + was described as Dooku as being Impossibly Powerful + was a fine a User of Djem So as Dooku had ever seen.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The point here is: The very basement for Anakin's archievement in that area, is not his use / mastery of Djem So. It's his attunement to the force that allowed him to defeat Dooku, noted by the novel as "nullifying" Dooku's skill. Or do you want to tell us that Anakin's pure bladework exceeds that of the master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" who practiced the art for more than 7 decades? I don't think so...

Yeah your right. Dooku is more "technically skilled" in bladework than both Mace and Anakin. And Anakin nullified his duelling skill due to his incredible power and attunment to the force. And yet you think Mace is even more powerful. By that theory Mace would make very short work of Dooku indeed, which I find quite difficult to beleive.


Originally posted by Borbarad
Mace is the only person that mastered Vaapad......

In Mace's opinion right?? because in Bulq's opinion Bulq perfected it.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. And the man who dictates canon in the SW universe, namely George Lucas, claimed that only Mace and Yoda were able to content with the Emperor in time of RotS, noting that Anakin would have become able to do so, if he hadn't been injured on Mustafar. The point is: RotS Anakin would not be able to do the job, no matter what Gillard says.......

Actually he didnt say he would have "become" able to do so. He just said Anakin "could" have beaten had he not got beat up. no mention of a future itme period. But for arguments sakes say your right. It's irrelevant to the saber ratings, because Sidious could probably just easily dispose of Anakin with a Force Move without even engaging him in lightsaber combat. Mace can definetely use the Force better than Anakin, which gives him a much better chance at taking on Sidious.

Originally posted by Borbarad
This is the same Gillard, by the way, that put his own character, Cin Drallig, as the best duellist of the era and also mentioned, that the saberforms don't even exists. Nice canon source there, pal........

Cin Drallig may have been the best in "Technical skill".. I dnt know. But NG knows Anakin took Drallig down in a lightsaber fight. He played the part on the hologram veiwing remeber. Anyway im not saying NG knows everything about Star Wars. But when it comes to the fight in the movies which are G-Cannon, he choreographed them, had to give them ratings, so obviously must have discussed with Lucas how good each of these characters are supposed to be in Lightsaber Combat.


Originally posted by Borbarad
Mace, through mastery of Vaapad, must be a high proficient master of multiple forms and the only master of the deadliest among them. Does the same apply to Anakin? No. So obviously, as far as technical finesse in lightsaber duels is concerned, Mace has more up his sleeve than Anakin.]

Make up your mind. One minute your arguing that these things are not decided by lightsaber forms, then the next minute your arguing Mace wins because he knows more lightsaber forms??!!

Neway by RODV Vader is trained in ALL forms of combat. that didnt take place long after ROTS, so by ROTS Anakin must have been trained and proficient in Most Forms at least.


Originally posted by Borbarad
Anakin doesn't possess the force mastery of Sidious, as you mentioned yourself. So how would he manage to stay alive against Mace?

Anakin's not Sidious. Lightsaber fight wnt go the same way. Mace "Physically" Overpowered Sidious. I doubt he will do it to someone whom Dooku was astonished by his "Sheer Physical Power".

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Borbarad
IAre you nuts?
I'm tired of arguing this bullshit. Mace draws on an inner (read: inside himself) source of darkness in order to content with the speed of Sidious. He then reflects Sidious fear back at the Sith Lord (read: superconducting loop) in order to break the concentration of the Sith Lord and after that he disarms him using the Shatterpoint ability.

Im tired of this bull as well which you clearly do not understand.

"He accepted the furious speed of the sith lord, DREW THE SHADOW'S RAGE AND FURY INTO HIS IN MOST CENTRE- and let it fountain out again"

Thats the "Loop"... he drew power form Sidious, so he wnt be THAT Powerful or THAT Fast when fighting Anakin. What do you not understand?

and he didnt defeat him using shattrpoint.. he looked for his shatterpoint and that lead him to Anakin. Sidious's weakness was that he was putting his faith in Anakin to take Sidious's side over Mace's. Clearly Mace wasnt able to take advantage of that. It ends by saying (when mace dies) that he was so busy concentrating on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he failed to see Anakins.

You see thats what I keep saying.. Seeing a weakness is one thing. Taking advantage of it is something completely different and not always possible. Otherwise his Saber Sparring matches with Qui-Gon would not have usually ended up in draws.

Mace and Sidious were exactly equal with the "Loop" and Mace eventually won by "tactically" besting him (in the novel), and "physically" overpowering him (in the movie).

Originally posted by Borbarad
Windu demonstrates similiar speed when fighting Kar Vastor in Shatterpoint, hitting him six times before Vastor can even blink. He does again demonstrate similar speed when dealing with the droids on Dantooine. Face it: Mace speed has nothing to do with that situation, nor does it require that Sidious is his opponent, nor does Mace archieve that via the "superconducting loop". .

And what you think Anakin is slow?? He has the fastest reflexes and coordination of any jedi. Thats why hes naturally the best pilot in the galaxy. And have you seen how incredibly fast hes been depicted taking out droids in the animated movie. ROTS novel says hes "Perhaps the Fastest Jedi of Any generation".
HIs saber also looked like it was everywhere in his fight with Dooku (before giving in to the dark side.) "His Blade was everywhere flashin and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electirc haze.." and later after being taunted, to hold back again(i.e. slowing down) both Dooku and Anakin blades were clashing "faster than the eye could see.."



Originally posted by Borbarad
The point is: Since he can't repeat that at will, he can't get on the "level 9" at will. Gillard even mentions that he just put Anakin there because of that special abilities. Otherwise it would be illogical for Anakin to be defeated by Obi-Wan..

Gillard says Anakin was a level 9 "for this movie" not just for the fight with Dooku.

Im tired of this as well, because you simnply dnt get it. If the fight with Obi1 carried on Anakin was definetely going to win. But the "Master of Soresu's" defences are not going to go down quickly. And Obiwan "Tactically" outsmarted him. He never once outduelled him. In fact it was Obiwan giving ground the whole fight.

And NG + the ROTS novel both say that Anakin and Obiwan knew each others moves inside out! Thats why neither could outduel the other. So Thats seriously the worst use of ABC logic. Not to mention Obiwan trained him for GOD'S sakes!



Originally posted by Borbarad
So, let me check: In general, Mace is maybe better with the force than Anakin. And you have absolutely no idea, if Anakin is better with a lightsaber (and only statements that point in the exact opposite direction). Still you think that Anakin has a good chance defeating Mace? Based on ... what?

Mace is better with the Force. Thats why hes got a much better chance against Sidious. But Anakins proved he can take Force attacks from Dooku and carry on fighting, so I dnt see Mace doing better in the force than Dooku. However in sabers theyre in the same league.(Both level9's) Though if the loop comes into play then that will give Mace the edge. But not because Mace is naturally better, stronger or more powerful a swordsman because hes not.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by The Ground

You go ahead and beleive . I don't care what NG called him, Mace is faster, stronger, and has Shatterpoint. What does "level 9" even mean? Does it mean in technical skill? In what way is that relevant?

the level 9 is technical skill + power and just overall how good they are as swordsmen. But swordsmen only. Mastery of the Force is something totally different where Anakin is Nowhere near Sidious. In fact hes not even in Mace's league in that department. But he can take Force attacks from Mace/Dook level Force users(just about).


Originally posted by The Ground

What I meant to say was that Anakin never showed anything special (even with his mastery of Djem So) until he used the dark side. Therefore Djem So did not win him the fight, it was the dark side. Which would be rendered useless by Vapaad.?

Yes it was. Even before giving into the darkside it was Anakin giving Dooku so much trouble. He practically accepted he culdnt beat him. Just tried to parry off his attacks. Before giving into the darkside Dooku said Anakin was "Impossibly Powerful" "A Destroyer Droid with a Lightsaber" "Not only did the Boy wield Tremendous amounts of Force Reserves but Dooku was astonished by his SHEER PHYSICAL POWER.." "the boy was a Djem So Stylist and a fine a one as Dooku had ever seen" and then finally he notices Skywalker was actaully GETTING STRONGER...

All these things together was what was giving Dooku so much trouble even before Anakin gave in to the Dark Side. and lets not forget he didnt even Beat Anakin back in the Clone Wars.



Originally posted by The Ground

I think you forget that Mace is stronger, faster, more technically skilled and has Shatterpoint.

Well i still dnt see any proof that Vapaad is more "technically skilled" In "Saber Duelling" than Djem So.

You know I can understand people thinking Mace would have the advantage of the "Super Conducting Loop" and possibly(though not guaranteed) of shatterpoint, but to say Mace is Stronger or more Powerful in Swordplay is just total rubbish.. and just kissing Mace's ass a bit too much.

Read he quotes above about how much Stronger and More Powerful Anakin was than Dooku in Swordfighting... A>B>C does work in individual aspects like Strength and Raw Power in Swordplay.
If Mace is even Stronger and More Powerul than Anakin in Swordplay than Dooku must be a complete weakling and totally powerless in comparison to Mace, and Mace would tool Dooku in like 3 seconds. So just think about that!

If you think Mace wins via the "Loop" fair enough. But at least be open minded enough to see that Anakin is AT LEAST as Strong and has at LEAST as much Raw Power in Sword fighting as Mace any day (well any day during ROTS before getting beat up by ObiWan LOL)..

Eminence
In the interest of not going back and forth again, let's tackle one stupid premise at a time.

First up, the idea of "Anakin = Level 9, ergo Anakin = Mace." There are two major problems with your use of this "fact." One, Nick Gillard isn't necessarily a reputable canon source. At all. His version of Jedi combat is not corroborated by a single published canon source, or even noncanon or verbal sources.

Two, you've been intentionally ignoring one very significant piece of Gillard's statement:

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark."

Which also doesn't really make sense given that Mace and Yoda are apparently level 9, but what's relevant here is that - as I pointed out - Gillard made it clear that the dark side is what made Anakin "a level 9," and that he's a level 8, just like Obi-Wan. Gillard also points out that there's an "enormous" gap between 8 and 9, meaning that dark side Anakin is an greater swordsman than Jedi Anakin . And since Mace Windu is a level 9, he too is an greater swordsman than Jedi Anakin. Of course, while dark side Anakin is on an equal tier as him in swordsmanship, Mace still has shatterpoint and Vaapad.

'Nuff said.

So either acknowledge that Nick Gillard isn't necessarily a canon source and that you bringing him up in every post is stupid and futile, or acknowledge that what he actually said isn't what you said he said and is really what I said he said, meaning that you bringing him up in every post is stupid, futile, and completely counterproductive to the point you're trying to make.

Either way, I win.

Hewhoknowsall
Where does this "level X" stuff come from? Can someone give me a link?

mattatom
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Where does this "level X" stuff come from? Can someone give me a link?

I think it was on the Audio Commentary on ROTS, I don't know if thers a transcript somewhere.

Eminence
I can't expect the rest of you to be as resourceful as I am, I suppose.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

Just CTRL+F "Gillard." It comes up near the bottom of the page.

mattatom
Originally posted by Eminence
I can't expect the rest of you to be as resourceful as I am, I suppose.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

Just CTRL+F "Gillard." It comes up near the bottom of the page.

Truth though, Originally it was on the commentary.

Red Nemesis
This seems to sum up your argument and it explains why you are so mistaken. Put simply, Anakin is not 'at least as strong' as Mace and (assuming I'm understanding you correctly) is nowhere near as skillful.

Power
Power: The capacity to accomplish work. (Not scientifically but... bear with me.)

In terms of the Force, power is the strength with which one may apply the Force to one's goals. This must be further broken down into potential power and actual power. Potential power is the ideal strength with which one could apply the Force. This is primarily determined by midichlorian count (apparently), although potential power has been underestimated in some individuals (Ganner Rhysode). This suggests that factors other than midichlorians may influence the upper limit of Force mastery. Actual power is the pertinent measure for the SWVF. It describes the strength an individual has been shown to have access to. Actual power can be modified- it generally varies over time with study, emotional state and motivation.

The dichotomy becomes pertinent to our discussion when individuals' actual power does not match their potential power. This gives rise to the speculation about 'full potential Anakin' or 'Dark Side Yoda' or 'Fully Trained Galen Marek'. None of these entities exist and so may not be used. The problem here is that Anakin's actual power is so vague. At times his power level appears abysmally low; his struggles against Ventress are symptomatic of this tendency. At other times, he reaches heights of Force power rarely seen in the mythos. This capacity is generally explained by his unorthodox birth: as a child of the Force (or Plageius) or otherwise, he has the highest midichlorian count ever recorded by the Jedi. That simple fact affords him incredible power- his potential led Palpatine to believe that Anakin might surpass him. Why, then, does Anakin not outclass every opponent he meets? Aside from PIS, the explanation lies in mastery. Because of his lack of training he is unable to bring his full potential to bear in any given situation.

The few times he has been able to access his 'full potential' he has been under the sway of the Dark Side. Most notably, Dooku notices that Anakin (while driving Dooku himself back) was 'holding back' his emotions and resisting the strength they gave him. Dooku identifies it as a Sith technique, 'the gift of fury'. Next, Anakin is encouraged by Palpatine to use the Dark Side. ""Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now!" This technique of 'fury' allows Anakin to enter 'the (t3h) zone'. It is utterly unique to his fight against Dooku on the Invisible Hand and he does not regain that level of actual power again for the rest of the saga.

This 'zone' is the only form in which Anakin might threaten Mace; his baseline abilities are far too weak otherwise to even provide a challenge to the Korun Jedi Master. With that in mind, we must ask ourselves a question: Will Mace Windu, a noted member of an order of light siders provoke Anakin into using the dark side? The only possible answer is 'no'. So Anakin will not be able to access the level of power he used against Dooku.

So. Anakin isn't using the Dark Side. Lucky break, right? Now Mace won't have access to the 'loop everyone loves so much. Vaapad is useless! Right? Sadly (for Anakin) this is not the case. Aside from the technical aspects of Vaapad (which I'll hit later) the metaphysical aspects will remain effective, even against a supposedly non-dark opponent.



The implication being, of course, that Vaapad is powered (normally) by Mace's inner darkness.

But wait! We argue characters at their peak! If you want to suppose that Anakin is in this 'zone' by default at the beginning of the fight (which would effectively increase his actual power available for the fight) you are admitting that it isn't a power he possesses and requires outside assistance to reach. Acknowledging this fact indicates that 'the zone' is in all actuality a dark side mentality. Mace Windu's specialty is equalizing the playing field with Dark Siders; it will be impossible for Anakin to maintain superiority in strength or speed. (If 'the zone' grants him even that much.)

To recap: Potential =/= actual power (especially when it comes to Anakin Skywalker). Anakin's 'zone' he used against Dooku is a dark side technique. If he doesn't use it he is outclassed by Mace and if he does use it he ends up helping Mace too. Therefore Anakin is incapable of winning this battle purely by raw power.

Skill
The comparison here is laughable. That there even is a comparison is laughable. Anakin Skywalker has nowhere near the lightsaber mastery that Mace Windu has achieved.


Mace is, simply put, a prodigy. He was the youngest member of the Jedi council (ever?) and has only improved since then. As a master of Juyo, he has attained 'high level mastery of multiple forms' in addition to the one he practices. In addition, he improved that 'high level' form- changing it into Vaapad. (Shatterpoint implies that Vaapad has unique attack patterns, even when compared with Juyo.)

On the other hand, Anakin apparently has proficiency in Ataru and Shien (which is a variation of his own form, anyway) sufficient to survive against Dooku. He does not, of course, pose a threat to him using those techniques (Dooku still thinks of the fight as a joke) but he isn't instantly killed. Anakin's chosen form, Djem So, appears to be the only form he's mastered, although it seems to be to a reasonably high degree. (Dooku put him among the 'finest' practitioners of that form he's seen.)

Let's step back a moment. Mace has 'high level mastery' of multiple forms' while Anakin has (confirmed) mastery of only one form. Vaapad, Mace's chosen form, is noted to be the 'deadliest' of all seven variations of saber combat. Notice its comparisons to F.5:


Nothing suggests that Form V is 'more suited' to saber combat or in any way superior to Vaapad. Nothing suggests that Anakin is more skilled in his style than Mace in his own. Nothing suggests that Anakin is as strong as Mace (and this is ignoring the feat wars that would boost Mace) be it under his own power or augmented by the Dark Side. Absolutely nothing suggests that Anakin would be able to defeat Mace Windu in open combat.

The Ground
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
the level 9 is technical skill + power and just overall how good they are as swordsmen. But swordsmen only. Mastery of the Force is something totally different where Anakin is Nowhere near Sidious. In fact hes not even in Mace's league in that department. But he can take Force attacks from Mace/Dook level Force users(just about).




Yes it was. Even before giving into the darkside it was Anakin giving Dooku so much trouble. He practically accepted he culdnt beat him. Just tried to parry off his attacks. Before giving into the darkside Dooku said Anakin was "Impossibly Powerful" "A Destroyer Droid with a Lightsaber" "Not only did the Boy wield Tremendous amounts of Force Reserves but Dooku was astonished by his SHEER PHYSICAL POWER.." "the boy was a Djem So Stylist and a fine a one as Dooku had ever seen" and then finally he notices Skywalker was actaully GETTING STRONGER...

All these things together was what was giving Dooku so much trouble even before Anakin gave in to the Dark Side. and lets not forget he didnt even Beat Anakin back in the Clone Wars.





Well i still dnt see any proof that Vapaad is more "technically skilled" In "Saber Duelling" than Djem So.

You know I can understand people thinking Mace would have the advantage of the "Super Conducting Loop" and possibly(though not guaranteed) of shatterpoint, but to say Mace is Stronger or more Powerful in Swordplay is just total rubbish.. and just kissing Mace's ass a bit too much.

Read he quotes above about how much Stronger and More Powerful Anakin was than Dooku in Swordfighting... A>B>C does work in individual aspects like Strength and Raw Power in Swordplay.
If Mace is even Stronger and More Powerul than Anakin in Swordplay than Dooku must be a complete weakling and totally powerless in comparison to Mace, and Mace would tool Dooku in like 3 seconds. So just think about that!

If you think Mace wins via the "Loop" fair enough. But at least be open minded enough to see that Anakin is AT LEAST as Strong and has at LEAST as much Raw Power in Sword fighting as Mace any day (well any day during ROTS before getting beat up by ObiWan LOL)..

I don't fully understand what you hope to gain from these Dooku statements.
Soz if teh count sez that Anikan is teh best heaz eva seen that meanz he can beat Mace windu!!!!!eleven
You seem to be relying almost completely on what Dooku says. Let me make this clear: Dooku is not even close to Mace. Mace moves much faster than Anakin. To prove this, in the ROTS novelization while Anakin is observing the fight, he considered Windu's Vaapad to be an "oblate sphere of purple fire, dozens of blades attacking from every angle." He admits that Mace is faster so everything you say about Dooku will be discounted by me.

How is it rubbish? I have yet to see examples where Anakin rips droids apart with his bare hands, or destroy an AT-TE with ease. So yes, Mace is stronger, physically and in terms of force powers. Don't even try to ABC here. In response to your statement regarding Dooku, he would manhandle him. You are talking about the guy who overpowered Sidious. What is Sidious compared to Dooku? Think about that!

You are discounting Shatterpoint completely. Focusing on Anakin, he will find it or overpower him too soon. His defenses will not protect him from that. Anakin will not get stronger as the fight goes on, Because the stronger he gets, the more the loop comes into play, the more time Mace has to find his Shatterpoint.

Mace is more technically skilled because he CREATED the form, therefore knows it inside out. Anakin on the other hand had only begun LEARNING it when he became a padawan. His mastery of Vapaad was far beyond that of Anakin's mastery of Djem So.

There is no need to spell every fourth word with a capital letter. It's sufficient for the names, but not Strong. Half the time it's like you're trying to ABC with this guy.

The Ground
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
He was the youngest member of the Jedi council (ever?)

Anakin was, stated in ROTS.

Red Nemesis
Well he wasn't actually on the council.

The Ground
"Calm down Anakin, you have been given a great honor. To be on the council at your age.. it's never happened before."

Eminence
He means by merit. Anakin got there because the leader of the Republic put him there.

The Ground
Council=Council

Then he should have stated "youngest member on the council by merit."

Also Carlos wants his money.

Red Nemesis
But he wasn't a master. Whatever, you clearly know what I mean (and everyone else worth their IQ did/does too) so there's no point talking about it anymore.

The Ground
k

DARTH POWER
Im gna sum up the main points u lot have bin saying.

1. Mace is stronger because hes ripped up battle droids or whatever..

well ROTS Anakin was at the prime of his power. That was only for a short time. Didnt have time to display feat after feat.

But in clone wars he did beat the crap out of an IG88 bounty hunter droid.. which im sure is far tougher than your average battle droid.

Also i dnt ever remember Yoda or Sidious ripping up battle droids, so does that mean Mace is stronger than them as well??

2. Your saying my main evidence is Dooku's description of Anakin..

well that is the main evidence, because thats the main account we have of ROTS Anakin's power. That and NG's statements. what other evidence is there? None.

3. Someones talking to me about potential power of Anakin..

But im talking about his ACTUAL strength and power as applied to swordplay as of ROTS. His mastery and knowldge of using the Force in general though is limited. But when it comes to his strength and speed and mobility, he has all that.

4. Mace's mastery of Vapaad is better becuase he created it..

well not necessarily. The fact that he created it in his lifetime shows its not as developed as the other forms, which have been developed over centuries, or even thousands of years.
Also everyone has a different learning rate. Anakin was as technically skilled as Obi-wan at least even though Obiwans 15 years older and more experienced. The chosen one clearly learns and develops his skills at an alarming rate. Theres many referneces to it about Skywalkers impressive skills (presumably for his young age)
And As fine a user as Dooku had ever seen implies the highest standard of mastery.

5. Anakin went from a level 8 to a 9 in thats movie using the dark side doesnt make sense because Mace and Yoda are 9's..

well actually if you read the making of ROTS the book, NG says you have to reach level 8 at the right age, because if you reach it as young as Anakin its just too temptimg to use it to jump you up.
So Yoda and Mace reached levels 8 and 9 respectively through the passage of time and honing their skills the proper way. Not through the dark side. (although Vapaad does actually give Mace the advantage of the darkside).
But by the way even when Anakin was an 8, he must have been a very high level 8(like Dooku) as weve already seen him match Dooku in sabers during the clone wars.

6. Mace has shatterpoint. That means he wins..

Shatterpoint is not a guaranteed victory. Iv already expalined why.


7. Mace beat Sidious that means Dooku could not contend with Mace..

Well No.. because the Loop comes into play, making his fight with Sidious toltoally different to how the Loop would affect his fight with Dooku. Thats where A>B>C doesnt work.

8. Mace is much faster than Anakin because he culdnt see him when he was fighting, and because he saw his blade everywhere..

Well the novel also mentions that he culdnt see them properly but he could "Feel them in the Force".. so thats all that matters because as we know "your eyes can deceivve you. dnt trust them"(obi1 ANH)
Also Anakin also displayed his Blade looking like its everywhere against Dooku.

9. Anakin wnt keep getting stronger because of the Loop??

No Anakin will keep getting stronger.. But Mace should be able to match that strength through the loop.
So yeah this would probably nullify Anakin's main advantage, so Mace probably would win through use of the Loop.. The same way he beat Sidious.
But not because hes out of their league in swordsmanship. They are all Level 9's. But as we know Sidious and Anakin and any Darksider are at a disadvantage from the start when fighting Mace in a swordfight because of the "Superconducting Loop".
But end of the day even though Mace beats Sidious through use of the Loop, we still know Sidious is at least as good a swordsman(probably a little better) as him, and more powerful than mace.
The same way even though Mace would probably beat Anakin in a swordfight through use of the "Loop"(though I still think it would be a good fight first) I still say Anakin is in the same league as a Swordsman(both level 9's) and probably about as Powerful as Mace as well(by ROTS which is Anakin at his most powerful).

10. Mace is much stronger more powerful than Dooku and completley destroys him??

urmm.. yes Mace is Uber. He would Kill both Skywalker and Dooku together with his hands tied behind his back balancing his lightsaber on his nose. Tssk... I can see this is pointless.

Red Nemesis
You aren't very good at this.

Gideon
Stop being inept, Darth Power. I haven't seen such rampant Dooku apologia dipped in willful ignorance and sarcasm since Nai was a permanent fixture in these parts. Nick Gillard is not a canon source; deal with it and move on.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You aren't very good at this.

He's about as proficient in debating as you are in expressing condescension with any noteworthy presence, you whore.

Gideon
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
But he wasn't a master. Whatever, you clearly know what I mean (and everyone else worth their IQ did/does too) so there's no point talking about it anymore.

Oh, please.

You're just upset that he defeated you by exploiting a blatant and glaring technicality in your post, you whore.

Red Nemesis
lolwut?

lyke, that didnt make ne cents at all u d bag.

(How would my skill at conveying condescension modify my presence at all? Learn what those big words mean before you try them out big guy. Maybe you should stick to your hillbilly cousin orgies and stay retired. KMC is doing fine without you (or it was before you came back) and you clearly have slipped back into redneckery.)

Eminence
Posted again, so DP can address it and concede for all to see:Originally posted by Eminence
In the interest of not going back and forth again, let's tackle one stupid premise at a time.

First up, the idea of "Anakin = Level 9, ergo Anakin = Mace." There are two major problems with your use of this "fact." One, Nick Gillard isn't necessarily a reputable canon source. At all. His version of Jedi combat is not corroborated by a single published canon source, or even noncanon or verbal sources.

Two, you've been intentionally ignoring one very significant piece of Gillard's statement:

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark."

Which also doesn't really make sense given that Mace and Yoda are apparently level 9, but what's relevant here is that - as I pointed out - Gillard made it clear that the dark side is what made Anakin "a level 9," and that he's a level 8, just like Obi-Wan. Gillard also points out that there's an "enormous" gap between 8 and 9, meaning that dark side Anakin is an greater swordsman than Jedi Anakin . And since Mace Windu is a level 9, he too is an greater swordsman than Jedi Anakin. Of course, while dark side Anakin is on an equal tier as him in swordsmanship, Mace still has shatterpoint and Vaapad.

'Nuff said.

So either acknowledge that Nick Gillard isn't necessarily a canon source and that you bringing him up in every post is stupid and futile, or acknowledge that what he actually said isn't what you said he said and is really what I said he said, meaning that you bringing him up in every post is stupid, futile, and completely counterproductive to the point you're trying to make.

Either way, I win.

Gideon
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
lolwut?

Faunus called and he wants his catchphrase back. Grammar Nazi my ass; Hitler had originality.



That's because you're unimaginably incompetent.



Who said anything about modification, you moron? You fail to express condescension with any sort of presence; you lack the menace or superiority to convey the proper amount of disdain, largely attributed to your notable stupidity.

It's no wonder that you can't win an argument with Darth Power.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Gideon
Faunus called and he wants his catchphrase back. Grammar Nazi my ass; Hitler had originality.
You are the one that wanted me to stop that. Make up your mind woman!

And faunus can't have it.


Originally posted by Gideon

That's because you're unimaginably incompetent.
Really? That's the best you could come up with? 'Incompetent'?


Originally posted by Gideon

Who said anything about modification, you moron? You fail to express condescension with any sort of presence; you lack the menace or superiority to convey the proper amount of disdain, largely attributed to your notable stupidity.
Poor country mouse- can't even read:


I know this is a bit different from the 'my first chapter books' you are used to but try to keep up. You compared DP's debating skill to my ability to express condescension with presence. You tied ability to condescend directly to presence on the forum. Which is silly.

Originally posted by Gideon

It's no wonder that you can't win an argument with Darth Power.
Wut? When did that (fail to) happen?

Gideon
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You are the one that wanted me to stop that. Make up your mind woman!

And faunus can't have it.

Because I assumed that you would demonstrate some talent in debate; if this is the best you can offer, I'm clearly wrong.



The best you can come up with is a rhetorical question in lieu of a comeback?





Because of your reputation as a moron, your condescension is worthless. It lacks presence, menace, and the ability to convey elitist disdain. For someone who claims to be a veritable demi-god in English, you are quite the failure.



This whole thread. He seems to be better than you on all fronts; the only reason you've managed to save face is because Faunus came into save your ass.

The Ground
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Im gna sum up the main points u lot have bin saying.

1. Mace is stronger because hes ripped up battle droids or whatever..

well ROTS Anakin was at the prime of his power. That was only for a short time. Didnt have time to display feat after feat.

But in clone wars he did beat the crap out of an IG88 bounty hunter droid.. which im sure is far tougher than your average battle droid.

Also i dnt ever remember Yoda or Sidious ripping up battle droids, so does that mean Mace is stronger than them as well??

2. Your saying my main evidence is Dooku's description of Anakin..

well that is the main evidence, because thats the main account we have of ROTS Anakin's power. That and NG's statements. what other evidence is there? None.

3. Someones talking to me about potential power of Anakin..

But im talking about his ACTUAL strength and power as applied to swordplay as of ROTS. His mastery and knowldge of using the Force in general though is limited. But when it comes to his strength and speed and mobility, he has all that.

4. Mace's mastery of Vapaad is better becuase he created it..

well not necessarily. The fact that he created it in his lifetime shows its not as developed as the other forms, which have been developed over centuries, or even thousands of years.
Also everyone has a different learning rate. Anakin was as technically skilled as Obi-wan at least even though Obiwans 15 years older and more experienced. The chosen one clearly learns and develops his skills at an alarming rate. Theres many referneces to it about Skywalkers impressive skills (presumably for his young age)
And As fine a user as Dooku had ever seen implies the highest standard of mastery.

5. Anakin went from a level 8 to a 9 in thats movie using the dark side doesnt make sense because Mace and Yoda are 9's..

well actually if you read the making of ROTS the book, NG says you have to reach level 8 at the right age, because if you reach it as young as Anakin its just too temptimg to use it to jump you up.
So Yoda and Mace reached levels 8 and 9 respectively through the passage of time and honing their skills the proper way. Not through the dark side. (although Vapaad does actually give Mace the advantage of the darkside).
But by the way even when Anakin was an 8, he must have been a very high level 8(like Dooku) as weve already seen him match Dooku in sabers during the clone wars.

6. Mace has shatterpoint. That means he wins..

Shatterpoint is not a guaranteed victory. Iv already expalined why.


7. Mace beat Sidious that means Dooku could not contend with Mace..

Well No.. because the Loop comes into play, making his fight with Sidious toltoally different to how the Loop would affect his fight with Dooku. Thats where A>B>C doesnt work.

8. Mace is much faster than Anakin because he culdnt see him when he was fighting, and because he saw his blade everywhere..

Well the novel also mentions that he culdnt see them properly but he could "Feel them in the Force".. so thats all that matters because as we know "your eyes can deceivve you. dnt trust them"(obi1 ANH)
Also Anakin also displayed his Blade looking like its everywhere against Dooku.

9. Anakin wnt keep getting stronger because of the Loop??

No Anakin will keep getting stronger.. But Mace should be able to match that strength through the loop.
So yeah this would probably nullify Anakin's main advantage, so Mace probably would win through use of the Loop.. The same way he beat Sidious.
But not because hes out of their league in swordsmanship. They are all Level 9's. But as we know Sidious and Anakin and any Darksider are at a disadvantage from the start when fighting Mace in a swordfight because of the "Superconducting Loop".
But end of the day even though Mace beats Sidious through use of the Loop, we still know Sidious is at least as good a swordsman(probably a little better) as him, and more powerful than mace.
The same way even though Mace would probably beat Anakin in a swordfight through use of the "Loop"(though I still think it would be a good fight first) I still say Anakin is in the same league as a Swordsman(both level 9's) and probably about as Powerful as Mace as well(by ROTS which is Anakin at his most powerful).

10. Mace is much stronger more powerful than Dooku and completley destroys him??

urmm.. yes Mace is Uber. He would Kill both Skywalker and Dooku together with his hands tied behind his back balancing his lightsaber on his nose. Tssk... I can see this is pointless.

Rofl. All of your arguments are completeley wrong.

1. Yes physically, Mace is stronger than Yoda and Sidious, and he displayed multiple force power feats, such as push an AT-TE off a cliff with ease. The term: strength, is obviously something you are a stranger to. Let me refer you to Red Nemisis for a detailed definition.

2. So you have just proved to me you have virtually no canon. Good job.

3. Read number one.

4. This is the form that beat Sidious, which is more than I can say for Djem So. Also he definitely knows HIS OWN FORM better than Anakin. Where do you come up with this bullshit?

5. Let me make this clear: He did not match sabers with Dooku. He got his ass handed to him and that would have been the end of him had not Yoda interfered. So that was a flat out lie coming from you.

6. Your "explanation of Shatterpoint is completely moronic. But I shouldn't be surprised as it's coming from someone who has ludicrous ideas regarding Vapaad and how "Djem So is made for deuling so it MUSTTT b bettr!!!1"

7. He wouldn't need the god damned loop you imbecilic excuse for a debater. Read argument number 1.

8. I have explained this four, count, 4 times already. MACE IS NOT DOOKU. DOOKU IS NOWHERE NEAR MACE IN TERMS OF SPEED OR POWER. Vapaad is much faster than anything Skywalker has ever dealt with, yet you continue to argue this. What do you hope to get from this?

And Anakin saw Vapaad first hand and knew he could not keep up with it. Irrefutable canon right here and you simply refuse to acknowledge it. Why? (Anderson don't barge in here with your "Because I choose to" BS)

9. No and No and NOOO. You seem to have a never-ending supply of bullshit streaming out of your brain. Every 4 words I must consult the dictionary to see if they exist and what they mean.
Mace would gut Anakin right there at the beginning, and if Anakin gets stronger, Mace does too, but that is on top of his already superior strength as pointed out by number 1.

And Sidious would have fared better in their duel by a significantly large margin if Mace did not have the loop. You are stating what everyone who has common sense knows. Why?

He is OBVIOUSLY out of their league in swordsmanship, NG aside. You can't ride on him forever. As to the comment regarding Anakin's power, cocaine is bad.

Now this thread is pointless, because you are the only one defending Anakin, and you have clearly stated that Mace would win. Done.

I hope it doesn't turn into the disaster that became of the "Morality Contest" thread.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Gideon
Because I assumed that you would demonstrate some talent in debate; if this is the best you can offer, I'm clearly wrong.
k



Here's the thing. I've never claimed to be good at insults. Ever. I just can't do it. For all that DS and Nebaris (once) claim that I use insults a lot (or get flamed a lot?) I simply don't do it. I can't. More to the point, I don't want to change that.

(And even I can realize that simply calling someone incompetent is not the most offensive thing you could have said.)



Really? The whole thread? I didn't respond to him until... page 4. At that point I made one post disagreeing with DP. Then there was a long string of posts between then and when I could post again by which time (grammar there?) all his points had been addressed by Nai or Faunus. It would have been a waste of time to dredge up old points, so I made a reasonably coherent (although now it seems a bit rough) argument regarding Mace and Anakin's respective skill level and power which no one has responded to.

But whatever. Cookies await!

The Ground
With milk?

Red Nemesis
I'm allergic to milk lactose intolerant.

Eminence
Originally posted by Red Nemesis

k



Here's the thing. I've never claimed to be good at insults. Ever. I just can't do it. For all that DS and Nebaris (once) claim that I use insults a lot (or get flamed a lot?) I simply don't do it. I can't. More to the point, I don't want to change that.

(And even I can realize that simply calling someone incompetent is not the most offensive thing you could have said.)



Really? The whole thread? I didn't respond to him until... page 4. At that point I made one post disagreeing with DP. Then there was a long string of posts between then and when I could post again by which time (grammar there?) all his points had been addressed by Nai or Faunus. It would have been a waste of time to dredge up old points, so I made a reasonably coherent (although now it seems a bit rough) argument regarding Mace and Anakin's respective skill level and power which no one has responded to.

But whatever. Cookies await! You sound so apologetic. Just say "**** you" and something witty and walk away.

Red Nemesis
**** you gideon.





**** ur mom.

'n stuff

Red Nemesis
That work?

The Ground
Hes going to rape you with his thesaurus.

Eminence
... You have no idea how to handle yourself in public.

The Ground
I don't blame him, the outside world is bright and scary.

Red Nemesis
This isn't public. Nothing I do here (or anything anyone does here) matters at all. Not even a little bit.

The Ground
Except when people get banned for flaming by mods. That has an effect... I think.

And I believe what Faunus was saying is that "when you are not masterbating" or something along those lines. Regardless, in 20 minutes this has become the "Morality Contest". KMC never fails to astound me.

Red Nemesis
Nope. You are still thinking that KMC influences the real world. Outside of helping typing speed and (sometimes, under the radar) exposing people to new world views it is utterly irrelevant.

The Ground
KMC is part of "teh real world" It allows us to practice debating skills, not insults. Maybe it does influence teh real world, who knows? It depends on the person.

Nephthys
Well for me, KMC has boasted my nerdfactor in the teh RailWorld by 3 whole sizes. I've gone from merely being ignored to violently accosted in public. True story except for the lies

Gideon
Doo wop!

Red Nemesis
and the killing

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Gideon
Stop being inept, Darth Power. I haven't seen such rampant Dooku apologia dipped in willful ignorance and sarcasm since Nai was a permanent fixture in these parts. Nick Gillard is not a canon source; deal with it and move on.

If youd like to give me a reason why the sword ratings by the guy who choreographed the sword duels in the movies is to be completely ignored, then I'll be happy to accept that as non-cannon and move on.

But do you really not think NG had conversations with Lucas about how good these guys are supposed to be at sword fighting before choreographing the duels? Especially since he goes on about it in the making of ROTS, and to my knowledge Lucas has never refuted it.

Anyway Iv messaged the moderator if its a sufficient source to use as cannonicity. If he says no, then i wnt use that argument again.

As for the Dooku apologia im curious about your opinion. Do you think Dooku is so much below Mace in power that considerably overpowering the Count still does not put Anakin even close to Mace's league in swordsmanship? (Ignoring Vapaad's advantages over Darksiders for arguments sakes)

Originally posted by Gideon
He's about as proficient in debating as you are in expressing condescension with any noteworthy presence, you whore.

Well iv been debating on my own against what seems like the whole KMC here! So give me some credit.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by The Ground
Yes physically, Mace is stronger than Yoda and Sidious, and he displayed multiple force power feats, such as push an AT-TE off a cliff with ease. The term: strength, is obviously something you are a stranger to. Let me refer you to Red Nemisis for a detailed definition.


And yet Mace's apparent superior strength to Sidious didnt show at all when they were Saber Clashing. So that can only suggest to me that Strength as applied to Sword fighting is something different to Strength thats applied when punching through droids.

And Dnt talk to me about Force feats as I never suggested Anakin could match Mace with the Force. And I really hope your not suggesting Mace can match Yoda or Sidious with the Force.

Gideon
...

Really?



Because he is not George Lucas nor is he a member of LFL in a position to dictate canon policy; all he does is coordinate the stunts. He has no real working knowledge of the forms or the combatants themselves, he merely executes what Lucas wants. Hardly the stuff of high ranking interpreters of canon.



That's the problem; you can't ignore the merits of Vaapad or of the shatterpoint charism. The only way that Anakin Skywalker can contend with Mace Windu is through use of the dark side of the Force; an energy that Windu can also use to his own advantage to nullify any advantage that Skywalker may have. The only way that a dark sider could conceivably dominate Mace Windu in the confines of a lightsaber duel is to kill him within the first critical seconds of the fight or overpower him with the Force; Anakin can do neither.



Don't be dense; Palpatine visibly struggled with Mace when their sabers were locked. The only reason he was able to compete with Mace at all on a physical level was his vast connection to the Force, able to compensate for a presumably low level of physical strength, agility, and mobility.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Gideon
...
That's the problem; you can't ignore the merits of Vaapad or of the shatterpoint charism. The only way that Anakin Skywalker can contend with Mace Windu is through use of the dark side of the Force; an energy that Windu can also use to his own advantage to nullify any advantage that Skywalker may have. The only way that a dark sider could conceivably dominate Mace Windu in the confines of a lightsaber duel is to kill him within the first critical seconds of the fight or overpower him with the Force; Anakin can do neither.

Fair enough. Mace will beat darkside anakin due to vapaad's advantage over darksiders. But do you agree that a dark side anakin is naturally as powerful as mace in a swordfight say if their both fighting lightsiders, or neutral force users, or even droids for instance?

Originally posted by Gideon
...Don't be dense; Palpatine visibly struggled with Mace when their sabers were locked. The only reason he was able to compete with Mace at all on a physical level was his vast connection to the Force, able to compensate for a presumably low level of physical strength, agility, and mobility.

yeah but does force enhanced strength not count? I think it counts particularly in Anakin's case who seems to have vast amounts of force reserves. Also Dooku who has fought mace in the past was astonished by anakin's sheer physical power. and that was before anakin completely gave in to his rage.

Eminence
DARTH POWER:

Stop ignoring this. Originally posted by Eminence
In the interest of not going back and forth again, let's tackle one stupid premise at a time.

First up, the idea of "Anakin = Level 9, ergo Anakin = Mace." There are two major problems with your use of this "fact." One, Nick Gillard isn't necessarily a reputable canon source. At all. His version of Jedi combat is not corroborated by a single published canon source, or even noncanon or verbal sources.

Two, you've been intentionally ignoring one very significant piece of Gillard's statement:

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark."

Which also doesn't really make sense given that Mace and Yoda are apparently level 9, but what's relevant here is that - as I pointed out - Gillard made it clear that the dark side is what made Anakin "a level 9," and that he's a level 8, just like Obi-Wan. Gillard also points out that there's an "enormous" gap between 8 and 9, meaning that dark side Anakin is an greater swordsman than Jedi Anakin . And since Mace Windu is a level 9, he too is an greater swordsman than Jedi Anakin. Of course, while dark side Anakin is on an equal tier as him in swordsmanship, Mace still has shatterpoint and Vaapad.

'Nuff said.

So either acknowledge that Nick Gillard isn't necessarily a canon source and that you bringing him up in every post is stupid and futile, or acknowledge that what he actually said isn't what you said he said and is really what I said he said, meaning that you bringing him up in every post is stupid, futile, and completely counterproductive to the point you're trying to make.

Either way, I win.

Lord Tyranus
Mace would dominate Anakin and he'd expose Human Vader's rage and sloppiness.

Eminence
There used to be a member here named Human Vader. I liked him.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Eminence
DARTH POWER:

Stop ignoring this.

Well NG being cannon or not, its quite obvious Dark Side Anakin is at least close to Mace in swordplay, just by the way he so heavily overpowered dooku..
but because its darkside anakin, Mace would win the same way he beat Sidious(through Vapaad's advantage against darksiders).. I beleive iv already admitted this.
However im not convinced shatterpoint is a guaranteed victory in a saber fight.
Now im waiting for someone to admit that aside from Vapaad's advantage over darksiders Darkside Anakin is at least close to Mace's league in sabers. He was a match for Dooku as a Jedi, and as a Sith he was considerably more Powerful.

The Ground
So what you're saying is, Anakin would match Windu if he did not have Vapaad and Shatterpoint? You've gone a long way from Djem So>Vapaad. I congratulate you.

ares834
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well NG being cannon or not, its quite obvious Dark Side Anakin is at least close to Mace in swordplay, just by the way he so heavily overpowered dooku..
but because its darkside anakin, Mace would win the same way he beat Sidious(through Vapaad's advantage against darksiders).. I beleive iv already admitted this.
However im not convinced shatterpoint is a guaranteed victory in a saber fight.
Now im waiting for someone to admit that aside from Vapaad's advantage over darksiders Darkside Anakin is at least close to Mace's league in sabers. He was a match for Dooku as a Jedi, and as a Sith he was considerably more Powerful.
AGreed on all. Pre-suit Vader sword skill at least rival thosae of Mace. Mace simply has Vaapad on his side. Shatterpoint also don't give him an autamatic victory as it was useless in his fight with Sidious. If you took away Vaapad from Mace it would be extremley close.

Eminence
Sure. Let's take away Anakin's left foot and frontal lobe so that baby Luke has a chance. That sounds reasonable.

Seriously people, stop being... weird.

The Ground
No. This has been pointed out several times already: Mace is stronger and faster. Vader would certainly not rival Mace's Vapaad, and where is proof of this? Hell, Anakin could barely see his attacks when he witnessed them firsthand. Even if you took away Vapaad, he is still a proficient master of Juyo. I admit, taking Vapaad would rob him of his advantage, but Windu is beyond Vader in terms of force knowledge and power.

Oh and you discount the loop entirely. As long as Windu retains the loop, Vader's chances of victory are slim. But of course you look only to his skill with a blade, argue nonsensical points, give up, then return to take away his Vapaad. Why don't I take away Anakins Djem So? Because then the fight would be rigged in Maces favor. So why do the same to Windu?

Nobody stated that Shatterpoint would give him an automatic victory, just an advantage. For someone as powerful as Sidious, perceiving a shatterpoint is much more difficult than for Anakin. Regardless, at the end he saw the shatterpoint of Sidious, and ultimately the shatterpoint of the Dark Side. I guess this must be lost on you, as you have not read the novelization, or Shatterpoint for that matter.

ares834
Originally posted by Eminence
Sure. Let's take away Anakin's left foot and frontal lobe so that baby Luke has a chance. That sounds reasonable.

Seriously people, stop being... weird.
I was simply agreeing with his post. No need to get snappy.

Eminence
That's the point. Taking away one character's attributes in an attempt to make the other character look good is inane and desperate.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by The Ground
So what you're saying is, Anakin would match Windu if he did not have Vapaad and Shatterpoint? You've gone a long way from Djem So>Vapaad. I congratulate you.

NO shatterpoint's a wild factor to be honest and not any kind of guarantee..
and i didnt say if Mace didnt have Vapaad.. I said if you ignore Vapaad's natural advantage on darksiders.. as that would not affect Yoda, or Obi1 for example.. it would not affect a non-force user, or even a neutral force user for that matter.. ONLY a Darksider.

and i dnt think I ever said Djem So > Vapaad. I simply said Vapaad was not specifically designed for Duelling whilst Djem So was, so I dnt believe Vapaad to have better technical skill in a duel.

So I congratulate you for not understanding a word that iv said in the last 8 pages and twisting everything i do say.. And then you say im terrible at this.. WHATEVER

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
NO shatterpoint's a wild factor to be honest and not any kind of guarantee..
and i didnt say if Mace didnt have Vapaad.. I said if you ignore Vapaad's natural advantage on darksiders.. as that would not affect Yoda, or Obi1 for example.. it would not affect a non-force user, or even a neutral force user for that matter.. ONLY a Darksider.

and i dnt think I ever said Djem So > Vapaad. I simply said Vapaad was not specifically designed for Duelling whilst Djem So was, so I dnt believe Vapaad to have better technical skill in a duel.

So I congratulate you for not understanding a word that iv said in the last 8 pages and twisting everything i do say.. And then you say im terrible at this.. WHATEVER

Vapaad can work against a lightsider. Mace can still draw from his inner darkness and use as a weapon of light.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vapaad can work against a lightsider. Mace can still draw from his inner darkness and use as a weapon of light.

Yeah darkside Anakin also gains strength from his dark emotions. And he has A LOT of rage to draw from, as well as practically unlimited force reserves. Dooku also gained power from the dark side which is why he was more powerful as a sith.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by The Ground
No. This has been pointed out several times already: Mace is stronger and faster.

No hes certainly not stronger than a guy who completely overpowered Dooku with his strength. + Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on, especially when hes drawing power from his rage..+ hes drawing power from basically unlimited force reserves. So Anakin DEFINETELY has the advantage in strength.
In speed Mace MAY have the advantage. But you do realise Anakin is incredibly fast himself right? and probably has faster reflexes than Mace.

Originally posted by The Ground
Vader would certainly not rival Mace's Vapaad, and where is proof of this?.

It would be difficult with the "Loop" using Anakins own strength against him. Yes.

Originally posted by The Ground
Hell, Anakin could barely see his attacks when he witnessed them firsthand.?.

When Mace had a loop with Sidious giving Mace Sidious's speed right?
And why does it matter that he culdnt see his attacks? He could feel him in the force, and thats all that matters (your eyes can deceive you. dnt trust them)

Originally posted by The Ground
Even if you took away Vapaad, he is still a proficient master of Juyo. I admit, taking Vapaad would rob him of his advantage, but Windu is beyond Vader in terms of force knowledge and power..?.

No ones talking about taking away Vapaad. Im saying Mace would only win in a fight against Anakin because of the loop it creates with a darksider. But the fact is Darkside Anakin is on par with Windu as a swordsman.

Originally posted by The Ground
Oh and you discount the loop entirely. As long as Windu retains the loop, Vader's chances of victory are slim. But of course you look only to his skill with a blade, argue nonsensical points, give up, then return to take away his Vapaad. Why don't I take away Anakins Djem So? Because then the fight would be rigged in Maces favor. So why do the same to Windu?..?.

You dnt have a clue what iv been saying.


Originally posted by The Ground
Nobody stated that Shatterpoint would give him an automatic victory, just an advantage. For someone as powerful as Sidious, perceiving a shatterpoint is much more difficult than for Anakin. Regardless, at the end he saw the shatterpoint of Sidious, and ultimately the shatterpoint of the Dark Side. I guess this must be lost on you, as you have not read the novelization, or Shatterpoint for that matter.

Iv got both novelisations you moron. Mace saw Sidious's shatterpoint but wasnt able to take advantage of it. Therefore shatterpoint is no gurantee of anything.

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