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This is a term very familiar to those of us who participate in the Vs. forum. It is a highly controversial point and often the deciding factor in a fight.

I would like to use this thread to discuss, debate, and perhaps arrive at a consensus on just what exactly constitutes a speed-blitz and maybe a list of characters who are capable and have the proclivity to use a speed-blitz in a fight (I'm sure the list won't be too long).

Anyways, I'll start by posting examples of what I consider to be true speedblitzes (performed by non other than the king of speed-blitzes, Superman )

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/2492/combatspeedts0.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8537/69520627tb6.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9351/86331340gw5.jpg

So, the thread's purpose is to elaborate on what a speedblitz means, and list characters who can do them ? ermm

I define speedblitz as being able to hit your opponent multiple times before he has a chance to react. Now whether you only do it in short bursts, or do it continuously until your opponent is down, it's still a speedblitz.

Characters who are capable of doing it, and would probably do it a majority of times are Flash related speedsters (Wally, Barry, Jay, Bart, Zoom etc) since it's their primary power, Superman, Batgirl () etc. Characters who are capable of, but seldomly do it are the likes of Captain Marvel, Sentry etc It generally depends on the writer, and the respective character's adversary.

I think it does not matter if your opponent cant react...if flash/wally was fighting flash/bart..and they went all out speed attacks..they would still be speedblitzing...right?

Originally posted by Starscream M
hmm...interesting. I agree about the hitting opponent multiple times.

I have a slight difference with yours in that I also require the attack to be in superspeed...so for me, batgirl hitting someone multiple times wouldn't qualify as a speedblitz.

Agreed with both of you. I think obviously you have to be faster than your opponent to speedblitz them, but the degree must be so great that (like in the scans) you are in superhuman speed, usually like a blur.

The problem arises when writers have peak human characters use speedblitz so it seems they have superhuman powers (for example, Batman appearing like a blur to his enemies.)

It's certainly interesting because it's a very subjective and obscure term that has become so important to our VS debates despite often not holding a lot of importance in the actual comics (like the fact in a VS debate Superman should easily beat Batman via speedblitz whereas in the comics Batman often wins, even with minimal prep.)

Being able to fly really fast in a straight line (as the second scan shows) doesn't constitute a speedblitz to me. That's just flight. Human Torch can do that and not that I pay attention but I doubt anyone in the Vs. forum has given Johnny a win via speedblitz.

Clearly Superman can speedblitz, but are all of those scans in the opening post the Big Guy? It's impossible to tell for sure in a couple, and his look just seems...off...in the first one. Maybe it's just me.

Originally posted by Vally Doosh
Being able to fly really fast in a straight line (as the second scan shows) doesn't constitute a speedblitz to me. That's just flight. Human Torch can do that and not that I pay attention but I doubt anyone in the Vs. forum has given Johnny a win via speedblitz.

So would you say you can't just simply fly fast in a straight line to speedblitz? Interesting.....

Because if that can just be attributed to flight, what about things like agility?

This whole threads purpose is to help you figure something out relevant to the vs forum?

Shouldn't this have been made in the vs forum?

Originally posted by Starscream M
This is a term very familiar to those of us who participate in the Vs. forum. It is a highly controversial point and often the deciding factor in a fight.

I would like to use this thread to discuss, debate, and perhaps arrive at a consensus on just what exactly constitutes a speed-blitz and maybe a list of characters who are capable and have the proclivity to use a speed-blitz in a fight (I'm sure the list won't be too long).

Anyways, I'll start by posting examples of what I consider to be true speedblitzes (performed by non other than the king of speed-blitzes, Superman )

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/2492/combatspeedts0.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8537/69520627tb6.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9351/86331340gw5.jpg
You're never going to get a solid answer on the term because the definition hasn't made it into Websters yet and I don't even think there IS a recognized usage of the word "speed" as an adjective. But if you get right down to it...

blitz
Noun
1. a violent and sustained attack by enemy aircraft
2. any intensive attack or concerted effort
Verb
to attack suddenly and intensively


speed
Noun
1. Physics The rate or a measure of the rate of motion, especially:
a. Distance traveled divided by the time of travel.
b. The limit of this quotient as the time of travel becomes vanishingly small; the first derivative of distance with respect to time.
c. The magnitude of a velocity.
2. Swiftness of action.
3.
a. The act of moving rapidly.
b. The state of being in rapid motion; rapidity.
4. A transmission gear or set of gears in a motor vehicle.
5.
a. A numerical expression of the sensitivity of a photographic film, plate, or paper to light.
b. The capacity of a lens to accumulate light at an appropriate aperture.
c. The length of time required or permitted for a camera shutter to open and admit light.
6. Slang A stimulant drug, especially amphetamine or methamphetamine.
7. Slang One that suits or appeals to a person's inclinations, skills, or character: Living in a large city is not my speed.
8. Archaic Prosperity; luck.


If we combine the second definition of blitz with third for speed(since they seem to be the most appropriate uses for our purposes) we end up with something like...

Speedblitz
Noun.
1. Any intensive attack or concerted effort preformed in a state of rapid motion.


Personally, I've always considered a speedblitz to be any attack that can't be defended against due to the speed at which it's preformed, but I'm in the minority on that because most supporters of the tactic insist that the characters have to be drawn a certain way, using h2h attacks, against a certain number of opponents of a certain size in order for it to "count" as a speedblitz .

Okay, I have a question.

People list the Flash all the time as a character who can beat opponents he would never beat in an actual comic.

I really want to see ANY Flash hitting an airborne opponent... not just a bit of the ground, but actually flying, without some PIS circumstances.... or fighting in space (like when he's matched against the Surfer in the versus forum).... and so on.

I'm kind of tired of the unbeliavable wanking Flash gets on here.... I get it, he has an astounding power-set.... but it's NOT PIS when he can't beat an opponent if they're outside of that set.

Originally posted by tjcoady
Okay, I have a question.

People list the Flash all the time as a character who can beat opponents he would never beat in an actual comic.

I really want to see ANY Flash hitting an airborne opponent... not just a bit of the ground, but actually flying, without some PIS circumstances.... or fighting in space (like when he's matched against the Surfer in the versus forum).... and so on.

I'm kind of tired of the unbeliavable wanking Flash gets on here.... I get it, he has an astounding power-set.... but it's NOT PIS when he can't beat an opponent if they're outside of that set.

Good question.

In Teen Titans when they fought the Evil future versions of themselves possessed by Starros, the evil future Bart Allen wasn't possessed. He defeated the giant evil flying Starro by jumping through it and bursting it.

I think it was Teen Titans #54(?) Sorry I don't have a scanner.

However your point still stands cos even if it wasn't P.I.S (which it may be) it was future version who could have arguably required a skill the current Flashes don't have.

Speedblitz: a compound attack which occurs so quickly, multiple targets are struck before an opponent can launch an effective defense (if any at all). Speedblitzing can range from close-quarters multipunching to an open, multivector flight attack. The point is: multiple strikes occur before a defense does. As a rule, superspeed helps.

Very generally speaking...
Best multipuncher: the Flash (or at least, he should be).
Best multivector flight attacker: the Surfer.
Best overall speedblitzer: Superman.

Cases in point deserving special mention:

1. If the Flash, eg, attacks another speedster with superspeed punching, is that a speedblitz? Only if the other speedster can't launch a defense while it's occurring. Even if the two are punching and blocking too fast for the eye to follow, neither is getting speedblitzed. They're speedfighting, but nobody, technically, is getting blitzed.

2. Batman, eg, wails on an opponent with multiple strikes before the opponent can react. Speedblitz? Yes, though not the kind we generally think of, with superspeed.

However, as shown with the Flash example, speed is relative. Therefore, as a criteria for a blitz, superhuman speed is secondary as compared to the primary constituents:
- multiple strikes
- no time for a defense

Originally posted by tjcoady
Okay, I have a question.

People list the Flash all the time as a character who can beat opponents he would never beat in an actual comic.

I really want to see ANY Flash hitting an airborne opponent... not just a bit of the ground, but actually flying, without some PIS circumstances.... or fighting in space (like when he's matched against the Surfer in the versus forum).... and so on.

I'm kind of tired of the unbeliavable wanking Flash gets on here.... I get it, he has an astounding power-set.... but it's NOT PIS when he can't beat an opponent if they're outside of that set.

I don't have the scan, but Wally did run in space during OWAW

Originally posted by Mindship
Speedblitz: a compound attack which occurs so quickly, multiple targets are struck before an opponent can launch an effective defense (if any at all). Speedblitzing can range from close-quarters multipunching to an open, multivector flight attack. The point is: multiple strikes occur before a defense does. As a rule, superspeed helps.

Very generally speaking...
Best multipuncher: the Flash (or at least, he should be).
Best multivector flight attacker: the Surfer.
Best overall speedblitzer: Superman.

Cases in point deserving special mention:

1. If the Flash, eg, attacks another speedster with superspeed punching, is that a speedblitz? Only if the other speedster can't launch a defense while it's occurring. Even if the two are punching and blocking too fast for the eye to follow, neither is getting speedblitzed. They're speedfighting, but nobody, technically, is getting blitzed.

2. Batman, eg, wails on an opponent with multiple strikes before the opponent can react. Speedblitz? Yes, though not the kind we generally think of, with superspeed.

However, as shown with the Flash example, speed is relative. Therefore, as a criteria for a blitz, superhuman speed is secondary as compared to the primary constituents:
- multiple strikes
- no time for a defense

For the sake of evidence...two speedsters speed fighting (multiple punches, kicks etc)....IS evidence of speedblitzing..there is no other point to it then.....there never should be the criteria that no defence is required.it does not make sense...it might be a successfull speedblitz...but when trying to determine if one can speedblitz....that criteria...is wrong i.m.o

Here is Wally saying he could outrun gravity, meaning he could run into the air too fast for gravity to pull him down:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff164/WallyWestRespect/wallyflashtick.jpg

Oh and here are the scans of him running in space that I found:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/runspace.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/runspace2.jpg

Originally posted by starlock
For the sake of evidence...two speedsters speed fighting (multiple punches, kicks etc)....IS evidence of speedblitzing..there is no other point to it then.....there never should be the criteria that no defence is required.it does not make sense...it might be a successfull speedblitz...but when trying to determine if one can speedblitz....that criteria...is wrong i.m.o
Speedfighting, of course, enables speedblitzing, and a speedster can certainly attempt to speedblitz another speedster. But if the latter was able to strike back and hold his own, he has not been blitzed (ie, the attempt failed).

I'm focusing more on results than intention.

Originally posted by Mindship


However, as shown with the Flash example, speed is relative. Therefore, as a criteria for a blitz, superhuman speed is secondary as compared to the primary constituents:
- multiple strikes
- no time for a defense

No, I strongly disagree with the speed relative aspect of a speedblitz. To me, a speedblitz MUST be over a certain speed, that majority of comic characters cannot handle...so say over the speed of sound at least. One safe rule of thumb is that you are moving faster than the eye can see.

If you make it relative...then if I punch a fat old man, that would make me speedblitzing him, and it shouldn't be categorized as such.

you would be bastardizing the term 'speed-blitz' and it would be meaningless.

i think he's actually running on a beam of light on that one....could be wrong tho..

to the point: speed blitzing always came across to me as some have already mentioned....multiple attacks with no chance for a proper defense.... thats why writers usually go out of thier way to show characters as a blur regardless of whether they have true superhuman speed or not ppl we've seen:
Batman
Batgirl
Deathstroke
Spiderman

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Here is Wally saying he could outrun gravity, meaning he could run into the air too fast for gravity to pull him down:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff164/WallyWestRespect/wallyflashtick.jpg

Oh and here are the scans of him running in space that I found:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/runspace.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/runspace2.jpg One of the reasons that I so hate the Flash and DC in general

Originally posted by Starscream M
If you make it relative...then if I punch a fat old man, that would make me speedblitzing him, and it shouldn't be categorized as such.


Yeah, I was pondering something like that when I was composing my first post (I was picturing two old guys flailing away at each other).

On the other hand, if Bruce goes batty on the Joker, unleashing a flurry of rapid blows which take him down, wouldn't that count as a speedblitz?

Obviously, speed has to be a component. I'm just saying the effect of that speed (in an attack) is more important than the actual fact of it when calling something a blitz.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Here is Wally saying he could outrun gravity, meaning he could run into the air too fast for gravity to pull him down:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff164/WallyWestRespect/wallyflashtick.jpg

Oh and here are the scans of him running in space that I found:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/runspace.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/runspace2.jpg

I'm pretty sure that in the first scan he's referring to the fact that he can run faster than the 32 feet per second "falling rate" of what gravity exerts on a body. Or at least that's the only way what he's saying makes sense.

And in the second two, he's running on Kyle's construct.

Originally posted by Mindship

Yeah, I was pondering something like that when I was composing my first post (I was picturing two old guys flailing away at each other).

On the other hand, if Bruce goes batty on the Joker, unleashing a flurry of rapid blows which take him down, wouldn't that count as a speedblitz?

Obviously, speed has to be a component. I'm just saying the effect of that speed (in an attack) is more important than the actual fact of it when calling something a blitz.

The way I've always seen is it that a "speedblitz" is when a character uses his drastically increased speed offensively against someone who doesn't have the ability to match that speed.

IE, Quicksilver hitting Captain America counts as a speedblitz. So would Quicksilver hitting Wally if Wally didn't know the attack was coming and was at rest. But say, Spiderman hitting Captain America, who is prepared for the attack, but just not quite fast enough to block it, isn't really a speedblitz. Spidey might be a bit faster than Cap, but the differential isn't intense enough to warrant calling it a speedblitz.

Originally posted by tjcoady
The way I've always seen is it that a "speedblitz" is when a character uses his drastically increased speed offensively against someone who doesn't have the ability to match that speed.

IE, Quicksilver hitting Captain America counts as a speedblitz. So would Quicksilver hitting Wally if Wally didn't know the attack was coming and was at rest. But say, Spiderman hitting Captain America, who is prepared for the attack, but just not quite fast enough to block it, isn't really a speedblitz. Spidey might be a bit faster than Cap, but the differential isn't intense enough to warrant calling it a speedblitz.

I'd agree with that for the most part, but I think the Spidey vs Cap example isn't a good one. I'd argue that Spidey has "Speedblitzed" characters like Daredevil in the past

Originally posted by tjcoady
The way I've always seen is it that a "speedblitz" is when a character uses his drastically increased speed offensively against someone who doesn't have the ability to match that speed. IE, Quicksilver hitting Captain America counts as a speedblitz. And in this instance, not having the ability to match that speed would mean being unable to launch an effective defense.


So would Quicksilver hitting Wally if Wally didn't know the attack was coming and was at rest. But here, Wally does have the ability to match Quicksilver's speed. In this instance, though, he wasn't prepared to launch an effective defense.

Either way, the blitz aspect was successful.

since tehre is a lot of talk about super pseed here i had a question ; in this instance(Lending his speed to the Flash (Jay Garrick), racing with the Flash, being clocked at MACH 500


http://img146.imagevenue.com/img.ph...7697_flash1.jpg
http://img14.imagevenue.com/img.php...cd15_flash3.jpg
http://img7.imagevenue.com/img.php?...b1fd_flash4.jpg
http://img144.imagevenue.com/img.ph...fd2f_flash5.jpg
http://img136.imagevenue.com/img.ph...53b7_flash6.jpg

...)


up until adam buckles is BA keeping up with jay at superliminal speeds on foot? Or does jay accelrate from mach500 to superliminal?

Black Adam reaches Mach 500 which is the point where his strength "began to flag". Once he stumbled, Jay stole his speed and reached lightspeed. So no, Black Adam was never lightspeed in that race.

Originally posted by ankur29
so was jay also at mach 500 and accelerating (is't he meant to be sub light speed?)? or did black adams speed + jay going at mach 500 = jay at light speed?

That's why I put an emphasis on the began to flag, as that is practically the point where he started fealing the strain of those speeds.

What that instance tells us is that..

Black Adam can reach the speed of Mach 500 at which point he begins to strain.
Flash (Jay) is faster than Black Adam.
Flash's velocity + Black Adam's = Lightspeed.

oh cool...

i hope black adam can fly faster than that

Originally posted by ankur29
so was jay also at mach 500 and accelerating (is't he meant to be sub light speed?)? or did black adams speed + jay going at mach 500 = jay at light speed?

Jay was also much faster than he is often depicted during that particular portion of JSA chronology.

Originally posted by Mindship
And in this instance, not having the ability to match that speed would mean being unable to launch an effective defense.


But here, Wally does have the ability to match Quicksilver's speed. In this instance, though, he wasn't prepared to launch an effective defense.

Either way, the blitz aspect was successful.

Right. I figure that you can count it as a blitz even if the character does have the ability to counter it, but doesn't. For instance, Wally hitting Superman, if Superman isn't relying on his superspeed abilities would be a blitz; but if they were moving at more or less the same speed, and Wally was moving marginally faster and tagged Clark, that would not be.

Kyle's construct was next to him, he didn't touch it at all.

Also I think it would count as speedblitzing if I ran up and started beating the crap out of some old guy in a walker

During his race with Krakkl, Flash was running through both time and space.

Examples:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1617499_f1.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1617500_f2.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1617501_f3.jpg

I could blitz an old guy but I wouldn't call it speedblitz.

I'd only refer to it as such if it was (far) in excess of what he could potentially defend against.

Potentially, with training I could defend myself against the best fighters in the world (maybe not well but you understand I hope). There is no level of training that would allow me to mount a sliver of a defence against Quicksilver or Flash.

('far' probably not being necessary as the 'in excess' kind of covers that too)

Originally posted by lft4ded
I could blitz an old guy but I wouldn't call it speedblitz.

I'd only refer to it as such if it was (far) in excess of what he could potentially defend against.

Potentially, with training I could defend myself against the best fighters in the world (maybe not well but you understand I hope). There is no level of training that would allow me to mount a sliver of a defence against Quicksilver or Flash.

('far' probably not being necessary as the 'in excess' kind of covers that too)

No, I understand what you're saying. A normal human would have no chance of beating Captain America.... and Captain America would be clearly MUCH, MUCH faster than any of us... but it wouldn't be a speedblitz . In a fight, he would be using his speed offensively, and we wouldn't be able to guard against it.... but it would be more or less "within" our level. That's why it wouldn't exactly be a speedblitz if Spiderman attacked Cap really, really fast- Spiderman is much faster than Cap, but he's not so far outside of his speed "level" that Cap couldn't possibly guard against it.

Someone like Wally moving far in excess of the speed of sound, attacking Cap, though, would be a speedblitz: Cap can never HOPE to match those levels of speed.

Originally posted by Galan007
During his race with Krakkl, Flash was running through both time and space.

Examples:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1617499_f1.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1617500_f2.jpg http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1617501_f3.jpg

Yeah, I see what you're saying. All I mean to say is we get things like "Flash versus Magneto" in the versus thread, and people just state "speedblitz"... But the instances of Flash hitting a target that's even just flying low to the ground are rare, and involve him jumping off a hill, or a construct from GL in JLA, or something like that. And him hitting someone who is flying pretty high up? Practically never.

Basically, my point is that Flash is tremendously, tremendously overrated based on his "possible" powers, rather than how he ever acts.

If a cheetah takes down a human being, is that a speedblitz?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Here is Wally saying he could outrun gravity, meaning he could run into the air too fast for gravity to pull him down:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff164/WallyWestRespect/wallyflashtick.jpg

No, he's explicity stating that "out running gravity" is what lets him seem to walk on water. That panel is all one sentence.

Originally posted by tjcoady
No, I understand what you're saying. A normal human would have no chance of beating Captain America.... and Captain America would be clearly MUCH, MUCH faster than any of us... but it wouldn't be a speedblitz . In a fight, he would be using his speed offensively, and we wouldn't be able to guard against it.... but it would be more or less "within" our level. That's why it wouldn't exactly be a speedblitz if Spiderman attacked Cap really, really fast- Spiderman is much faster than Cap, but he's not so far outside of his speed "level" that Cap couldn't possibly guard against it.

Someone like Wally moving far in excess of the speed of sound, attacking Cap, though, would be a speedblitz: Cap can never HOPE to match those levels of speed.

I guess we're in agreement here. Just phrasing it differently.

You may not be able to outrun a cheetah but you defend against the same as against a tiger or cougar or any other big cat. I wouldn't classify it as a speedblitz.


Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No, he's explicity stating that "out running gravity" is what lets him seem to walk on water. That panel is all one sentence.

It seems to read as a brief list of three things that his speed allows him to accomplish, each separated by ellipses: outrun gravity...run on water...race light.

Originally posted by tjcoady
Yeah, I see what you're saying. All I mean to say is we get things like "Flash versus Magneto" in the versus thread, and people just state "speedblitz"... But the instances of Flash hitting a target that's even just flying low to the ground are rare, and involve him jumping off a hill, or a construct from GL in JLA, or something like that. And him hitting someone who is flying pretty high up? Practically never.

Basically, my point is that Flash is tremendously, tremendously overrated based on his "possible" powers, rather than how he ever acts. I do agree that it is not 'in character' for Flash to run on thin air, or in space, to engage a flying opponent. The only reason I posted those scans is because it seemed as though Flash's ability to do so at all, was being questioned.