Darth Sidious v. Obi-Wan Kenobi

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Kodiak
1. Lightsabers
2. Force
3. All-out

And here are some follow-up questions I have:
1. How much stronger than Obi-Wan is the Emperor?
2. Is he even stronger or could Obi-Wan actually beat him?

This is what I think:
1. Obi-Wan- well... he's the master of soresu and pretty accomplished at ataru also.
2. Sidious- the lightning pretty much says it all stick out tongue
3. Sidious- his force powers make up for his lightsaber skills.

Eminence
1.) stomp
2.) lolwutstomp
3.) lolwutstomp

And the Emperor as of RotS is far more powerful than Obi-Wan. Yoda didn't think it was even worth the effort for Kenobi to try and challenge him.

Kodiak
far more powerful? I don't think so. Tell me how Sidious would "stomp" Obi-Wan in a lightsaber battle. I don't like it when people say who would win and not explain why. smile

Eminence
Originally posted by Kodiak
far more powerful? I don't think so. Tell me how Sidious would "stomp" Obi-Wan in a lightsaber battle. I don't like it when people say who would win and not explain why. smile Palpatine blitzed two of the greatest swordsmen the Jedi Order had ever produced in about three seconds; a couple more, and he killed Kit Fisto, who personally overpowered General Grievous in single combat. He was almost too fast for Mace to handle before he slipped into Vaapad.

So yeah, Obi-Wan gets stomped in a duel because he is simply outclassed in speed. As Lucas said, only Mace or Yoda can compete with the Emperor.

As far as power goes? Note that Obi-Wan was casually dismissed by Count Dooku twice in their RotS duel. Palpatine > Dooku.

Elite Hunter
^and that's ROTS Sidious, I would hate to think what DE Sidious would do to him.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Eminence
Palpatine blitzed two of the greatest swordsmen the Jedi Order had ever produced in about three seconds; a couple more, and he killed Kit Fisto, who personally overpowered General Grievous in single combat. He was almost too fast for Mace to handle before he slipped into Vaapad.

So yeah, Obi-Wan gets stomped in a duel because he is simply outclassed in speed. As Lucas said, only Mace or Yoda can compete with the Emperor.

As far as power goes? Note that Obi-Wan was casually dismissed by Count Dooku twice in their RotS duel. Palpatine > Dooku.

ABC argument!

And George Lucas (the ultimate canon) as well as Yoda said (though GL said it indirectly) that Obi Wan can't take on Sidious.

Eminence
That's actually a valid ABC argument. Force power boils down to a combination of raw reserves and mastery. Unlike combatants as a whole, elements like those can be individually quantified with respect to each other. For example, if A can squat more than B, and B can squat more than C, A can squat more than C. That's different from Anakin beat Dooku and Obi-Wan beat Anakin so Obi-Wan beats Dooku.

So I win.

ares834
You guys don't give Obi-Wan enough credit. Lucas states that Darth Vader is 80% of the emporer. Obi-Wan is roughly equal in power to Vader, thus Obi-wan is roughly 80% the power of the emporer. As such it won't be a complete PWNage. As you guys make it seem.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by ares834
You guys don't give Obi-Wan enough credit. Lucas states that Darth Vader is 80% of the emporer. Obi-Wan is roughly equal in power to Vader, thus Obi-wan is roughly 80% the power of the emporer. As such it won't be a complete PWNage. As you guys make it seem. Kenobi is NOT equal to Vader in power. Or Anakin. His lightsaber skills are proficient, but he doesn't come close to the Sith.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Kenobi is NOT equal to Vader in power. Or Anakin. His lightsaber skills are proficient, but he doesn't come close to the Sith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI

And most people seem to think that ROTS Vader > OT Vader in sabers (and the above battle was 99% sabers)

Eminence
That isn't the Darth Vader who was eighty percent as powerful as Palpatine. He was a deranged psychopath with practically nonexistent control over his power.

Kodiak
Obi-Wan was considered one of the greatest jedi the order had ever seen, and one of the best swordsman. He was a master of soresu, and could block a max of 20 strikes per second. I don't think Sidious can strike that fast... And force powers don't come into this, unless they are only used to enhance speed/strength.

Master Crimzon
Which is exactly the point: Sidious' very forte is not his technical prowess over the lightsaber (which is highly impressive, regardless), but rather his ability to use the force in order to enhance his speed to a frightening extent.

In fact, that speed was far more than Mace Windu had the ability to handle before submerging into Vaapad; he was forced back with the sheer ferocity and speed behind Sidious' style. He also did not have the speed to react to Sidious' slaughter of two Jedi Masters with one blow each, only being capable of engaging him once Kit Fiisto blocked his attack. Note; this is the same Windu that is noted to have a spectacularly powerful physique and force abilities outside of his usage of Vaapad, substantiated by feats. This is also the Windu that, without the aid of Vaapad, was capable of forcing Grievous on the defensive within their short fight, although of course it can be argued that Grievous wasn't able to use his full might in that fight.

Similarly, Grievous' style played directly into Obi-Wan's hands: it lacked any precision and finesse behind it, the traits that have been shown to be Obi-Wan's bane (his battles against Count Dooku). And even then, Obi-Wan was eventually overpowered at 20 strikes per second. It was to his fortune that Grievous did not have the sufficient skill to parry his attacks. Sidious? He's hardly of the same caliber. On the other hand, Anakin, using the force of the dark side, was able to force Obi-Wan back during their duel and lead him to a point of desperation and physical exhaustion (this can be seen from his expressions in the movie, his entire body language, whatever). Obi-Wan knew Anakin's every movie, while he would be completely unfamiliar with Sidious' erratic and unpredictable form of combat; not to mention that Sidious, having far superior control over the force than Anakin, is capable of harnessing speeds that far eclipse Anakin's own.

Moving with speeds that transcend those of opponents that heavily challenged Obi-Wan = definitive win. It's speed that is superior to Anakin's, Mace's, whatever, both Jedi said by George Lucas and Nick Gillard to be level 9's- above Obi-Wan's level 8 by a considerable margin.

Another argument is thus: when Dooku battled Yoda, Yoda kicked his ass with his speed and ferocity. The count could not handle it. On the other hand, Dooku was more skilled than Grievous and clearly had the ability to defeat him in lightsaber combat. Even if Grievous did not go all-out in these sparring matches, it cannot be argued that Dooku was, ultimately, the superior swordsman. However, Sidious battled Yoda on completely even grounds- disarming speculation or whatnot, it was evident that they were well matched in speed and a closer look at the duel on the senate pods would reveal that Sidious definitely held the offensive.

Eminence
I'm booking a ticket if you cite Nick Gillard again.

And can you people stop posting in that 'empire invasion' thread? Please?

Hewhoknowsall
Sidious all three. Obi Wan is powerful all right, but I don't consider him to be "mega top tier" and instead just "top tier". By mega top tier I mean Luke, Yoda, Sidious, Mace and a bunch of ancient sith such as Bane.

Eminence
Luke, Sidious, and Yoda are in a tier of their own.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Eminence
I'm booking a ticket if you cite Nick Gillard again.

Nick Gillard is close personal friend: you must not diss him. Oh, and you mustn't attack the people who support your argument, too. You will eventually be left alone in the world.

Eminence
Bad is bad. I had a half hour argument with both of my parents about religious conflict.

Kodiak
OK, thanks for posting you guys! I know when to admit defeat... smile

mattatom
Originally posted by Kodiak
OK, thanks for posting you guys! I know when to admit defeat... smile

Could you teach how to do that to Hewhoknowsall?
Kai.Thx.Bai.

Kodiak
I'll try big grin

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Kodiak
I'll try big grin

Godspeed.

Eminence
Originally posted by Kodiak
OK, thanks for posting you guys! I know when to admit defeat... smile I think I like you.

mattatom
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Godspeed.
and May the Force be with you.
You'll need it.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by mattatom
Could you teach how to do that to Hewhoknowsall?
Kai.Thx.Bai.

Could you show me threads in which you admitted defeat? I'd like to see.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Eminence
Bad is bad. I had a half hour argument with both of my parents about religious conflict.

I agree with my parents about most issues, although I'm more of a relativist than they are. I also support drug legalization while they do not. And yes, we're constantly arguing this.

mattatom
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Could you show me threads in which you admitted defeat? I'd like to see.

Thats due to the fact I'm never defeated, I'm too impartial.

Red Nemesis
Here's one:

Eminence
Prove it.

mattatom
How many minutes of your life did you waste typing that?
Also I still don't know who Faunus or Neb are I just keep seeing there names pop up!

Red Nemesis
Faunus = Eminence

Just look at his user profile. (Click his name on one of his posts.)

Nebaris = no one.

mattatom
Originally posted by Eminence
Prove it.
Wait your Faunus!?!?

I never knew that.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Faunus = Eminence

Just look at his user profile. (Click his name on one of his posts.)

Nebaris = no one.
Thanks Red, but that takes effort and with a pet helper like you theres no need for it.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by mattatom
Thats due to the fact I'm never defeated, I'm too impartial.

You claim that I never admit defeat, but you're so arrogant that you claim that you NEVER lose, which basically the same thing (both never admit that they've lost)

impartial? "What if the empire invaded modern day earth" were you impartial? No. And even if so, then that means that the only way you don't lose is that you never strongly debate anyway, and you can't lose if you don't "compete".

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by mattatom
Wait your Faunus!?!?

I never knew that.



laughing

mattatom
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You claim that I never admit defeat, but you're so arrogant that you claim that you NEVER lose, which basically the same thing (both never admit that they've lost)

impartial? "What if the empire invaded modern day earth" were you impartial? No. And even if so, then that means that the only way you don't lose is that you never strongly debate anyway, and you can't lose if you don't "compete". Actually technically thats untrue, if the empir did invade modrn day arth and i didn't tak part in ither sides battle, and got blown to smithereens, thn i lost.

Sorry about words with the letter 'e' in it's a tad dodgy at the moment.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
laughing

Don't laugh at my ignorance!

Red Nemesis
False. Never admitting defeat means that one continues in spite of certain failure. Never losing means just that- that one has not yet failed. You're attacking Matt the wrong way- he has failed and continues to fail against Faunus Eminence. Pick on that.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Pick on that.

Don't make it too easy for him.

mattatom
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
False. Never admitting defeat means that one continues in spite of certain failure. Never losing means just that- that one has not yet failed. You're attacking Matt the wrong way- he has failed and continues to fail against Faunus Eminence. Pick on that.
Wait how do I fail against Eminence? Am I missing something?
We joint this place at the same time Red you should be defending me!
In fact I joint this Abyss two days before you!

Eminence
ROFL

Yeah. I changed my username to Publius II to pass myself off as Nebaris, he came on with a sock named "Faunus" that same day. Hilarity ensued.

A few weeks later, I got to here.

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by Eminence
ROFL

Yeah. I changed my username to Publius II to pass myself off as Nebaris, he came on with a sock named "Faunus" that same day. Hilarity ensued.

A few weeks later, I got to here.

You're starting to go through names like Manslayer use to.

Eminence
Nah. This one sticks.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
False. Never admitting defeat means that one continues in spite of certain failure. Never losing means just that- that one has not yet failed. You're attacking Matt the wrong way- he has failed and continues to fail against Faunus Eminence. Pick on that.

You claimed that the modern day earth vs star wars thread was a spite against star wars, and I supported earth, and now you say that I lost?

And it's OK to not admit defeat if you haven't lost. In the modern day earth thread I still give arguments, and sure you think that they're stupid, but that's opinion just like according to you you've never lost (but that's an opinion that can't be 100% proven)

I'm tired, so I might be a little bit off.

Happy_Sith
Kenobi drew with Vader in a Force Push contest.

Kenobi looked unfocused as well, so I doubt Vader is more powerful in the Force.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You claimed that the modern day earth vs star wars thread was a spite against star wars, and I supported earth, and now you say that I lost?
Let's examine this, shall we? While the lack of indentations on KMC (the 'tab' key is not enabled and extra spaces are formatted away) makes it a bit unclear, common convention would label this a paragraph due to the extra line separating it from the rest of the post. If I am correct (and I often am) then this was meant to be about a single topic. (Note that this is not Grammar Nazism because I've merely acknowledged a deficiency in our mode of communication, not the manner in which he presented his ideas.) If we examine the statement we find a pair of assertions:

You claimed that the Earth v Empire thread was spite against the Empire
I supported Earth

A careful observer will note that there is another clause in the above statement:

"nd now you say that I lost?"

The series of words 'and now you say' implies that 'that I lost' is a conclusion based on the previous two assertions. This simply cannot be, as neither of the prior assertions were related in any way to any kind of measure of success in presenting ideas. I submit that we are in the presence of an incredible mind; one capable of such leaps of intuition that it can determine a victor in any given thread based on the initial positions of debaters and their off topic banter. Ladies and gentlemen (mostly gentlemen) I believe that we can declare the SWVF all but obsolete!


Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

And it's OK to not admit defeat if you haven't lost. In the modern day earth thread I still give arguments, and sure you think that they're stupid, but that's opinion just like according to you you've never lost (but that's an opinion that can't be 100% proven)
In all seriousness, I strongly urge you to give it up. Your 'arguments' have consisted entirely of pointing out PIS and assuring us that it will apply in an out of narration battle. Nothing you've submitted has suggested that any of Earth's military forces would be able to destroy so much as a single AT AT, while every measure of skill, technology and tactical advantage has reinforced the Empire's position. Furthermore, when one of the most seasoned members of the forum's arguments are left untouched it seems a bit presumptuous to claim that you 'still give arguments'. You've lost.

(One's estimation of 'stupidity' may be subjective, but one's estimation of the persuasiveness of a position's arguments is anything but. Nai's arguments were superior. Unless you've got a Shonen Jump esque 'A game' that you've yet to reveal you have provided the inferior argument. You've lost.)

((I never claimed not to have lost. If you're aiming that at someone else feel free to indicate that in some way. You did quote me.))

Red Nemesis
lolwut?

Happy_Sith
delete

Happy_Sith
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
lolwut?

Vader was hyped up and full of rage. That helps when you want to push a certain amount of weight. Kenobi, OTOH, was unfocused and mentally ****ed up, given his relationship to Anakin.

Red Nemesis
backspace.

What are we talking about?


lolwut? You think Anakin was at peak, in terms of Force application?

Happy_Sith
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
backspace.

What are we talking about?


lolwut? You think Anakin was at peak, in terms of Force application?

Anakin was at 90%.

But Kenobi was at 2%.

Eminence
Yeah, but Yoda was at 36% against Sidious, who had +9 to Lightning and +23 to Influence and was at 164%, so Anakin was stronger than usual and Obi-Wan was weaker.

Happy_Sith
Originally posted by Eminence
Yeah, but Yoda was at 36% against Sidious, who had +9 to Lightning and +23 to Influence and was at 164%, so Anakin was stronger than usual and Obi-Wan was weaker.

Prove it.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Eminence
Yeah, but Yoda was at 36% against Sidious, who had +9 to Lightning and +23 to Influence and was at 164%, so Anakin was stronger than usual and Obi-Wan was weaker. Saving throw. Do a saving throw!

mattatom
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Saving throw. Do a saving throw!

Saving throw failed.
Cause(s):
Lack of Dexterity.
Over-inflated Ego- Lack of mobility.

Eminence
dhem so has a lack of miibilty but it makes up for it because it is MOR SKILLED at dueling than vaapaad and can REFLECT vaapaad power strokes back at the user and especially because you need to master soresu the IMPENETRABLE DEFENSE first and then your unstoppbale epecilaly anikan

I am POWER

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Let's examine this, shall we? While the lack of indentations on KMC (the 'tab' key is not enabled and extra spaces are formatted away) makes it a bit unclear, common convention would label this a paragraph due to the extra line separating it from the rest of the post. If I am correct (and I often am) then this was meant to be about a single topic. (Note that this is not Grammar Nazism because I've merely acknowledged a deficiency in our mode of communication, not the manner in which he presented his ideas.) If we examine the statement we find a pair of assertions:

You claimed that the Earth v Empire thread was spite against the Empire
I supported Earth

A careful observer will note that there is another clause in the above statement:

"nd now you say that I lost?"

The series of words 'and now you say' implies that 'that I lost' is a conclusion based on the previous two assertions. This simply cannot be, as neither of the prior assertions were related in any way to any kind of measure of success in presenting ideas. I submit that we are in the presence of an incredible mind; one capable of such leaps of intuition that it can determine a victor in any given thread based on the initial positions of debaters and their off topic banter. Ladies and gentlemen (mostly gentlemen) I believe that we can declare the SWVF all but obsolete!



Assuming that you're serious:

There's a reason why I had a "?" at the end. It's like when someone says "I work hours overtime without extra pay and now I can't get an extra 1 cent salary raise?". Does this imply that "I can't get an extra 1 cent salary raise' is a conclusion based off of the facts? NO. It's like a mix of sarcasm and "this doesn't make any sense".

"I submit that we are in the presence of an incredible mind; one capable of such leaps of intuition that it can determine a victor in any given thread based on the initial positions of debaters and their off topic banter. Ladies and gentlemen (mostly gentlemen) I believe that we can declare the SWVF all but obsolete!"

According to your logic, the above implies that you've made a conclusion that I know 100% for sure who wins and who loses in a debate.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Assuming that you're serious:

There's a reason why I had a "?" at the end. It's like when someone says "I work hours overtime without extra pay and now I can't get an extra 1 cent salary raise?". Does this imply that "I can't get an extra 1 cent salary raise' is a conclusion based off of the facts? NO. It's like a mix of sarcasm and "this doesn't make any sense".

"I submit that we are in the presence of an incredible mind; one capable of such leaps of intuition that it can determine a victor in any given thread based on the initial positions of debaters and their off topic banter. Ladies and gentlemen (mostly gentlemen) I believe that we can declare the SWVF all but obsolete!"

According to your logic, the above implies that you've made a conclusion that I know 100% for sure who wins and who loses in a debate. You're not very good at displaying sarcasm here. It's difficult anyway, seeing as it's all written words we have to interpret, but still...

And you seemed pretty damn sure of who would win in the Empire vs. Earth thread. A thread you made. I mean, what's the point of coming up with a scenario and resolving it so fast, and then lambaste anybody who tries to counter it? If you weren't the thread's creator, such zeal on your part would be acceptable (look at Nai). But as you were the creator... sup with that? It's like organizing a competition, entering it yourself, declaring yourself the immediate winner, and yelling at everyone who disagrees. What's the point?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You're not very good at displaying sarcasm here. It's difficult anyway, seeing as it's all written words we have to interpret, but still...

And you seemed pretty damn sure of who would win in the Empire vs. Earth thread. A thread you made. I mean, what's the point of coming up with a scenario and resolving it so fast, and then lambaste anybody who tries to counter it? If you weren't the thread's creator, such zeal on your part would be acceptable (look at Nai). But as you were the creator... sup with that? It's like organizing a competition, entering it yourself, declaring yourself the immediate winner, and yelling at everyone who disagrees. What's the point?

ME yelling? Do you not realize that half of what you guys said was to insult me? Sometimes you'd quote one of my posts and then just say "that's stupid", which doesn't mean anything really right? Hypocrites sad and it's OK if you're not the thread starter? Huh? And I don't get mad at people who side against me, as long as they don't shout insults like you guys do.

I'm not "damn sure of myself". I admit that the empire would give earth HELL, but earth would win in the end. In fact, I voted "earth wins" and not "earth pwns" when I'm pretty sure that you guys voted "empire pwns".

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
ME yelling? Do you not realize that half of what you guys said was to insult me? Sometimes you'd quote one of my posts and then just say "that's stupid", which doesn't mean anything really right? Hypocrites sad and it's OK if you're not the thread starter? Huh? And I don't get mad at people who side against me, as long as they don't shout insults like you guys do.

I'm not "damn sure of myself". I admit that the empire would give earth HELL, but earth would win in the end. In fact, I voted "earth wins" and not "earth pwns" when I'm pretty sure that you guys voted "empire pwns". I was being glib about the yelling. See? Hard to interpret the inflection behind the written word.


Again though, your sheer indignation about the outcome of the scenario is what riled the rest of us on. And no one really reacts kindly sanctimony. If your gonna start a Vs. thread, then you must wonder about the possible outcome---hence the reason we do these. If your so sure of that outcome already, why make the thread? It's the reason why no respectable member makes a "Sera Keto vs. Palpatine." We know the results, so what's the point? If you had stayed open to suggestion or perhaps created more balanced statistics...

Essentially, what I'm getting at is... "peer pressure!" "Conform!"

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I was being glib about the yelling. See? Hard to interpret the inflection behind the written word.


Again though, your sheer indignation about the outcome of the scenario is what riled the rest of us on. And no one really reacts kindly sanctimony. If your gonna start a Vs. thread, then you must wonder about the possible outcome---hence the reason we do these. If your so sure of that outcome already, why make the thread? It's the reason why no respectable member makes a "Sera Keto vs. Palpatine." We know the results, so what's the point? If you had stayed open to suggestion or perhaps created more balanced statistics...

Essentially, what I'm getting at is... "peer pressure!" "Conform!"

That's what I said.

Except that last. We need underdogs.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I was being glib about the yelling. See? Hard to interpret the inflection behind the written word.


Again though, your sheer indignation about the outcome of the scenario is what riled the rest of us on. And no one really reacts kindly sanctimony. If your gonna start a Vs. thread, then you must wonder about the possible outcome---hence the reason we do these. If your so sure of that outcome already, why make the thread? It's the reason why no respectable member makes a "Sera Keto vs. Palpatine." We know the results, so what's the point? If you had stayed open to suggestion or perhaps created more balanced statistics...

Essentially, what I'm getting at is... "peer pressure!" "Conform!"

When did I say that I'm sure of myself?

YOU guys are sure of yourselves, given the fact that you insult anyone (me) who has a different opinion of you.

I THINK that Earth would win w/difficulty, and I'm trying to see what other people think. Obviously I back up my argument, or else what's the point of the thread? You guys on the other hand (you, Nai, Nemesis, etc) probably voted "Empire pwns" while I voted "Earth wins".

And look; you're insulting me again. sad

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
When did I say that I'm sure of myself?

YOU guys are sure of yourselves, given the fact that you insult anyone (me) who has a different opinion of you.

I THINK that Earth would win w/difficulty, and I'm trying to see what other people think. Obviously I back up my argument, or else what's the point of the thread? You guys on the other hand (you, Nai, Nemesis, etc) probably voted "Empire pwns" while I voted "Earth wins".

And look; you're insulting me again. sad Because you're not getting it!

I don't care WHAT you think about a scenario. I'll argue it, but I don't really care. I care about HOW you argue it.



The Earth wins in that thread, there's no denying it. My problem with you is WHY you designed the scenario for the Empire to fail. You gave them virtually nothing to work with and you hindered their ability to even move. WHY? Why did you design it like that? What was the point of making the thread if the winner was predetermined? WHY?

Slash_KMC
He didn't insult you. He's actually one of the nicer guys. Of course second to me, because I'm on top of the nice guys list.

I voted Earth pwns btw ... I love this blue ball too much to even think about it losing.

Slash_KMC
Oh, screw you TG. erm

Lord Lucien
Ha! Language, Mr. NiceGuy.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Oh, screw you TG. erm

Who's TG? Me?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Because you're not getting it!

I don't care WHAT you think about a scenario. I'll argue it, but I don't really care. I care about HOW you argue it.



The Earth wins in that thread, there's no denying it. My problem with you is WHY you designed the scenario for the Empire to fail. You gave them virtually nothing to work with and you hindered their ability to even move. WHY? Why did you design it like that? What was the point of making the thread if the winner was predetermined? WHY?

Why do you keep on insisting that it's a spite? Let's take a look at your first post in that thread:

Ahem.

The Empire targets the nuclear powers first, splitting their forces around the globe, simultaneously attacking and deterring the nuclear powers from burning the entire planet.

Assuming of course the Empire aren't a pack of retards, they'll bring some AA with them, neutralizing our air forces along with jamming our satellite/radar capabilities.

No known conventional armament can withstand laser-based weaponry of Imperial caliber, rendering our superior number factor rather useless.

And since the Vs. forums take in to consideration the EU, stormtroopers aren't the bumbling morons of the movies, but are instead rigorously trained elite shock troops (despite Ush's zeal), our "superior training" will fall by the wayside. Especially in the wake of lasers. Take that Kevlar.

Also considering that the some 200 nations of this planet do not cooperate as well as we'd all like, chances are someone *cough*France*cough*Canada* is gonna sell someone out. Also considering that only the U.S., China, North Korea, and Russia have the military capabilities to dent Imperial numbers (ala prolonged air attacks, naval defences etc.) the rest of the world doesn't really count.

In the end, we may be able to hold out long enough to dwindle and divide the Imperials to the point that a war of attrition may arise in which case we WILL lose considering the immense likelihood of defection. The nuclear option leaves everyone dead ONLY if the Imperials do not possess or do not acquire a means to stop/protect themselves from it.

I didn't even factor in Vader.

Doesn't look like you think Earth will win.

Also, the Empire has disadvantages yes, but it's called handicapping. The empire is obviously superior to Earth, so I gave Earth advantages in order to balance things out.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Who's TG? Me?


No, it's the Canadian.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Oh, screw you TG. erm

You're a liar. As a helper I'm automatically the nicest one here.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
You're a liar. As a helper I'm automatically the nicest one here.

I manually decide what happens automatically.

By the way, change your avatar. It stopped being funny an hour before Eastern ended.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Who's TG? Me?



Why do you keep on insisting that it's a spite? Let's take a look at your first post in that thread:

Ahem.

The Empire targets the nuclear powers first, splitting their forces around the globe, simultaneously attacking and deterring the nuclear powers from burning the entire planet.

Assuming of course the Empire aren't a pack of retards, they'll bring some AA with them, neutralizing our air forces along with jamming our satellite/radar capabilities.

No known conventional armament can withstand laser-based weaponry of Imperial caliber, rendering our superior number factor rather useless.

And since the Vs. forums take in to consideration the EU, stormtroopers aren't the bumbling morons of the movies, but are instead rigorously trained elite shock troops (despite Ush's zeal), our "superior training" will fall by the wayside. Especially in the wake of lasers. Take that Kevlar.

Also considering that the some 200 nations of this planet do not cooperate as well as we'd all like, chances are someone *cough*France*cough*Canada* is gonna sell someone out. Also considering that only the U.S., China, North Korea, and Russia have the military capabilities to dent Imperial numbers (ala prolonged air attacks, naval defences etc.) the rest of the world doesn't really count.

In the end, we may be able to hold out long enough to dwindle and divide the Imperials to the point that a war of attrition may arise in which case we WILL lose considering the immense likelihood of defection. The nuclear option leaves everyone dead ONLY if the Imperials do not possess or do not acquire a means to stop/protect themselves from it.

I didn't even factor in Vader.

Doesn't look like you think Earth will win.

Also, the Empire has disadvantages yes, but it's called handicapping. The empire is obviously superior to Earth, so I gave Earth advantages in order to balance things out. I conceded my defeat. I was trying to make case for one side, because that's what we do. The parameters you set however predetermined the Empire to lose. I was simply trying to counter your obtuse choice of statistics.

This has got to be the fourth or fifth time you've evaded answering my question. I can see that you're either avoiding it on purpose or simply don't understand it.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Eminence
1.) stomp
2.) lolwutstomp
3.) lolwutstomp

And the Emperor as of RotS is far more powerful than Obi-Wan. Yoda didn't think it was even worth the effort for Kenobi to try and challenge him.

While I respect your point of view as much as anyone on here (in most matters), I have to disagree somewhat. Darth Sidious isn't going to roll through Obi-Wan Kenobi as easily as you make it seem (at least in a saber duel). Obi-Wan's saber defense is damn near airtight. He'll definitely last a while before finally succumbing to Sidious' mastery of blade manipulation. Keep in mind that I'm referring only to a saber battle. In an all-out, no holds barred combat scenerio, Obi-Wan becomes Jedi toast.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
While I respect your point of view as much as anyone on here (in most matters), I have to disagree somewhat. Darth Sidious isn't going to roll through Obi-Wan Kenobi as easily as you make it seem (at least in a saber duel). Obi-Wan's saber defense is damn near airtight. He'll definitely last a while before finally succumbing to Sidious' mastery of blade manipulation. Keep in mind that I'm referring only to a saber battle. In an all-out, no holds barred combat scenerio, Obi-Wan becomes Jedi toast.

In sabers alone, Sidious took out three masters in seconds. One of them(Kit) Kenobi admitts to being better than himself in sabers.

Red Nemesis
Kenobi made that statement at the beginning of the Clone Wars- he improved greatly over the course of time. I'd put RotS Kenobi firmly above a contemporaneous Fisto.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In sabers alone, Sidious took out three masters in seconds. One of them(Kit) Kenobi admitts to being better than himself in sabers.

To begin with, Red Nemesis makes an excellent point. Secondary to that, the matter of Obi-Wan's statement regarding Kit Fisto is typical of a Jedi. It belies a characteristic that many Jedi try to adhere to; humbleness.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I conceded my defeat. I was trying to make case for one side, because that's what we do. The parameters you set however predetermined the Empire to lose. I was simply trying to counter your obtuse choice of statistics.

This has got to be the fourth or fifth time you've evaded answering my question. I can see that you're either avoiding it on purpose or simply don't understand it.

So the winner is predetermined? Wrong; it's NOT. If it were so, then WHY DO YOU SAY THAT THE EMPIRE WINS (OR AT LEAST AT THE BEGINNING YOU DID)? Now you say that you conceded defeat and that you were simply trying to argue for a side...does that mean that you just randomly pick a side and argue for it even if you don't think that side would win? WTF?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Kenobi made that statement at the beginning of the Clone Wars- he improved greatly over the course of time. I'd put RotS Kenobi firmly above a contemporaneous Fisto.

How much did he improve? Is it fair to say Kenobi improved but Kit didn't? If you can give evidents or a source i will drop the arguement. Even if Kenobi did improve dramatically, i still would not put him too much above Kit. It seems Kit did just as well against Grievous as Kenobi did, and may have been able to defeat Grievous.

There is still no arguement that can put Kenobi close to Sidious as far as sabers. Sidious's force inhanced strength and speed would be far too much for Kenobi.

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So the winner is predetermined? Wrong; it's NOT. If it were so, then WHY DO YOU SAY THAT THE EMPIRE WINS (OR AT LEAST AT THE BEGINNING YOU DID)? Now you say that you conceded defeat and that you were simply trying to argue for a side...does that mean that you just randomly pick a side and argue for it even if you don't think that side would win? WTF?

What he is trying to say that you hindered the empire so much before the battle starts with the scenario you set up and what the empire has/hasn't to work with. So yes, it was predetermined before the battle would even began. It's like putting DE Sidious vs TPM Anakin, the battle is over before it even began.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So the winner is predetermined? Wrong; it's NOT. If it were so, then WHY DO YOU SAY THAT THE EMPIRE WINS (OR AT LEAST AT THE BEGINNING YOU DID)? Now you say that you conceded defeat and that you were simply trying to argue for a side...does that mean that you just randomly pick a side and argue for it even if you don't think that side would win? WTF? Wow, I was right. You DO evade.


Like I said about, oh, 3 weeks or so ago: I argued in favour of the Empire because I felt they could win given the circumstances of the parameters that you set out. That's what we do here, we pick a side and argue for it. But due to lack of details, we all pressured you to add some. You did. Those details you added guaranteed a victory for the Earth. We harassed you for giving unfair advantages to one side. You felt compelled to defend your decision. Then over the course of several weeks you frequently brought up the fact that "we're all big meanies who point out your mistakes". THEN you felt the need to open up several threads with the statement "some members here/I wanna prove" but which was really a cover banner that cried out "I can improve my renown with you guys if I get some members to prove others wrong, making me, the thread starter, look better for it."


You're so good at getting offended and not knowing when to take a joke or concede a point, that, despite arguing in favour of the general consensus, you STILL managed to tick off people in your Rome vs. USA thread. It's been some time since someone as dense and persistent as you traveled through here. I must thank you for spicing this place up with your insistent and witless brays.

CadoAngelus
1) I think Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu might give him a chance in Lightsaber combat...though, it's highly likely that Sidious' speed would overcome him relatively quickly

2) Sidious. No question...

3) Sidious, he wouldn't opt for using a Lightsaber when he came dominate Obi-Wan with his lightning...

nuff said

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How much did he improve? Is it fair to say Kenobi improved but Kit didn't? If you can give evidents or a source i will drop the arguement. Even if Kenobi did improve dramatically, i still would not put him too much above Kit. It seems Kit did just as well against Grievous as Kenobi did, and may have been able to defeat Grievous.

There is still no arguement that can put Kenobi close to Sidious as far as sabers. Sidious's force inhanced strength and speed would be far too much for Kenobi.

I agree that Fisto most definitely improved within the parameters of Shii-Cho, perhaps as much as Kenobi in that regard. However, it's Kenobi's mastery of Soresu that lends credence to my statement that he'll "last a while before finally succumbing to Sidious' mastery of blade manipulation". Styles make fights. Do I think Obi-Wan has a chance of overcoming Sidious in a saber duel? Hell no!!! But, like I said, his mastery of Form III will serve to prolong the fight, and thus the inevitable.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I agree that Fisto most definitely improved within the parameters of Shii-Cho, perhaps as much as Kenobi in that regard. However, it's Kenobi's mastery of Soresu that lends credence to my statement that he'll "last a while before finally succumbing to Sidious' mastery of blade manipulation". Styles make fights. Do I think Obi-Wan has a chance of overcoming Sidious in a saber duel? Hell no!!! But, like I said, his mastery of Form III will serve to prolong the fight, and thus the inevitable.

Sorry, i don't see it like that at all. Three Jedi master could not even defend themselves at the same time, even with Mace there to help. Sidious took on four blade masters without any force usage (other than inhanced speed and strength). Kit alone survived a fight with Grievous and four magnaguards, but lasted what... five seconds with Sidious, while Sidious had his attention on Mace as well.

There is just no arguement that could convince that Kenobi can do better than three Jedi masters(with the help of Mace). You can say "well Kenobi has soresu" all you want, but that is not convincing at all. If soresu was so good at lasting longer in a duel, don't you think all Jedi would use it? Different saber styles work work different for different Jedi, that why there is more than one.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sorry, i don't see it like that at all. Three Jedi master could not even defend themselves at the same time, even with Mace there to help. Sidious took on four blade masters without any force usage (other than inhanced speed and strength). Kit alone survived a fight with Grievous and four magnaguards, but lasted what... five seconds with Sidious, while Sidious had his attention on Mace as well.

There is just no arguement that could convince me that Kenobi can do better than three Jedi masters(with the help of Mace). You can say "well Kenobi has soresu" all you want, but that is not convincing at all. If soresu was so good at lasting longer in a duel, don't you think all Jedi would use it? Different saber styles work work different for different Jedi, that why there is more than one.

Woops... Why did i quote myself? lol

Meant to edit.

Higilo
Not even going to dignify that with an answer, Sidious is stronger in lightsaber skills and in the force, for god sake Yoda struggles against him and Mace Windu, a jedi is no match for this sith lord, no jedi!!!

mattatom
Originally posted by Higilo
Not even going to dignify that with an answer, Sidious is stronger in lightsaber skills and in the force, for god sake Yoda struggles against him and Mace Windu, a jedi is no match for this sith lord, no jedi!!!

Yoda struggles against him due to the environment and the bit in his office at the senate was PIS.
Mace defeats him if you remember in th scene in his office, only reason Mace delayed finishing him off was for plot advancement.

Actually GL said only two Jedi who can compete with Sidious is Mace and Yoda.

Also keep this attitude with Sidious and Gideon will hire you at some point.

Higilo
Darth Sidious loses to Mace Windu because, according to my sources, he sensed Anakin coming so pretended to lose, for Anakin's sympathy, and because it was PIS. And Sidious did defeat Yoda, with or without technicalities

mattatom
Originally posted by Higilo
Darth Sidious loses to Mace Windu because, according to my sources, he sensed Anakin coming so pretended to lose, for Anakin's sympathy, and because it was PIS. And Sidious did defeat Yoda, with or without technicalities

Just like Obi Wan defeated Maul with or without technicalities, both PIS.

Your sources being? It is true, Sidious held back so Anakin would act, and Sidious toyed with Anakins emotions at the mention of Padme, Anakin snapped. Nonetheless, without a Environment induced defeat you cannot call a definitive victor.

SIDIOUS 66
It seems rather obvious to me that Sidious never planned on defeating Mace. Remember the seen where he telepathically tells Anakin "If the jedi destroy me, any chance of saving her will be lost"? If Sidious felt so threatened by the jedi he would have tryed to retreat like he did with Yoda. Whether he threw the saber duel is still up for debate i believe. But one thing is for sure, is that Sidious would have never been killed by Mace. Lucas says he was playing weakness with the lightning.

Higilo
Thank you, my point exactly, to conclude there isn't a chance Obi Wan could destroy Sidious alone

mattatom
Originally posted by Higilo
Thank you, my point exactly, to conclude there isn't a chance Obi Wan could destroy Sidious alone

We weren't debating whether Obi Wan would dfat Sidious or not, we got on the fact you made the ambiguous statement that Sidious could not be dfated by any Jedi.

Ofcourse Obi Wan has no hope.

Higilo
Did any Jedi defeat Sidious NO! Did the best Jedi in the galaxy beat sidious in the arrest attempt NO! Did Sidious make all the jedi he fought look like pawns in his game YES! (even Yoda)

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Higilo
Not even going to dignify that with an answer, Sidious is stronger in lightsaber skills and in the force, for god sake Yoda struggles against him and Mace Windu, a jedi is no match for this sith lord, no jedi!!!

You just did (dignify it w/ an answer).

CadoAngelus
Originally posted by Higilo
Did any Jedi defeat Sidious NO!

Anakin's redeemed self with a distraction from Luke...

mattatom
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
Anakin's redeemed self with a distraction from Luke...
Adding to that DE Sidious's defeat at the hands of Luke.

Anon E. Mous
Originally posted by Higilo
Did any Jedi defeat Sidious NO! Did the best Jedi in the galaxy beat sidious in the arrest attempt NO! Did Sidious make all the jedi he fought look like pawns in his game YES! (even Yoda)

Mace had him beat. Vaapad was enough to beat him.

Higilo
I personally don't see Darth Vader catching Darth Sidious off guard a fair victory, and even then it was a tie, they both ended up dead because of it

mattatom
Originally posted by Higilo
I personally don't see Darth Vader catching Darth Sidious off guard a fair victory, and even then it was a tie, they both ended up dead because of it

Since if you want to put it in VS terms it would be...

Vader+Sidious VS Luke
to
Sidious VS Luke+Vader
to
Sidious VS Luke+Vader
to
Luke Wins.
Both team lost a member.
Overall victor being Luke.

Higilo
Luke never fights sidious, so there is no vs contest it goes

Luke vs Vader Luke wins

Sidious beats Luke down

Vader betrays Sidious

Luke wins one, Sidious wins one and Vader wins one, tie game

mattatom
Originally posted by Higilo
Luke never fights sidious, so there is no vs contest it goes

Luke vs Vader Luke wins

Sidious beats Luke down

Vader betrays Sidious

Luke wins one, Sidious wins one and Vader wins one, tie game
He fought with his heart!

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by mattatom
He fought with his heart!

And lost his father. lol

xxxpoppunker182
But DE luke still beat sidious

mattatom
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And lost his father. lol

Yes but still. my team comparison evolotuion 'thing' works, Luke fought Vader's Dark Side and brought the Light in him therfore adding Vader to Luke's team then Sidious and Vader both die. Luke's left standing Luke wins.

CadoAngelus
Originally posted by Higilo
Luke never fights sidious, so there is no vs contest it goes

Luke vs Vader Luke wins

Sidious beats Luke down

Vader betrays Sidious

Luke wins one, Sidious wins one and Vader wins one, tie game

Luke wins because Vader is slowing seeing Lukes reasoning. Luke was still very weak compaired to Vader at that point.

Sidious beats Luke like a *****...

Vader redeems himself but he's already weakened, which is why he eventually dies in the Hanger bay. If Luke hadn't bested him in the throne room, Vader would've dropped Sidious and walked on his merry way...

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
But DE luke still beat sidious

Yes, Luke did beat DE Sidious...but i'm not sure how many people have read DE tbh, so it's likely missed or ignored by most people...

Higilo
I am pretty sure Vader dies because of sidious' lightning, damaging his suit, tbh Sidious rules all

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
Vader would've dropped Sidious and walked on his merry way...

I doubt that very much...


Not by the established members here on kmc.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
Vader redeems himself but he's already weakened, which is why he eventually dies in the Hanger bay. If Luke hadn't bested him in the throne room, Vader would've dropped Sidious and walked on his merry way...

Vader died by Sidious's lightning and only the lightning. How did having his mechanical hand chopped off help result in his death? That made no sense. lol

Lord Lucien
Especially seeing as how he's had his mechanical limbs severed by a lightsaber before.

CadoAngelus
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Especially seeing as how he's had his mechanical limbs severed by a lightsaber before.

After luke finished with Vader, he was breathing like an asthmatic having a sezure...sure, the lightning helped towards his initial death...but he was seriously damaged after Luke had downed him...

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
After luke finished with Vader, he was breathing like an asthmatic having a sezure...sure, the lightning helped towards his initial death...but he was seriously damaged after Luke had downed him...

Sidious's back was killing him because he was sitting in his chair too long. Didn't you notice how he was walking really slow? If it wasn't for him sitting down so much Vader would not of been able to throw him down the reactor shaft, because Sidious would have kicked him the same way Dooku kicked Anakin in ROTS.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
After luke finished with Vader, he was breathing like an asthmatic having a sezure...sure, the lightning helped towards his initial death...but he was seriously damaged after Luke had downed him... I actually don't know if this has anything to do with Kenobi vs. Sidious. But...

Vader was breathing heavily due to just being beaten and exhausted from Luke's hammering. But he stood up just fine, and still managed to pick up Sidious. With one hand, I don't know how that works messed

mattatom
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I actually don't know if this has anything to do with Kenobi vs. Sidious. But...

Vader was breathing heavily due to just being beaten and exhausted from Luke's hammering. But he stood up just fine, and still managed to pick up Sidious. With one hand, I don't know how that works messed
He uses his flat molten metal stump of a hand to rest Sidious on.

CadoAngelus
Originally posted by mattatom
He uses his flat molten metal stump of a hand to rest Sidious on.

Yeah, i was gonna say...lol

The Ground
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I actually don't know if this has anything to do with Kenobi vs. Sidious. But...

Vader was breathing heavily due to just being beaten and exhausted from Luke's hammering. But he stood up just fine, and still managed to pick up Sidious. With one hand, I don't know how that works messed

In ROTS, it's stated that he could not control his breathing. Which means the lightning damaged his breathing machine, not Luke. I'm not sure if he was breathing heavily when Luke cut his arm off, but he didn't strike anywhere else to cause problems for Vader. If Vader was, then it's Lucasfilm's negligence.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by The Ground
In ROTS, it's stated that he could not control his breathing. Which means the lightning damaged his breathing machine, not Luke. I'm not sure if he was breathing heavily when Luke cut his arm off, but he didn't strike anywhere else to cause problems for Vader. If Vader was, then it's Lucasfilm's negligence. Yup. Not to mention... what use is a cyborg if his life support is kept in his right hand?

CadoAngelus
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yup. Not to mention... what use is a cyborg if his life support is kept in his right hand?

Point is, I'm using personal observation. When Vader is on the floor missing a hand, he's breathing extremely heavily. All the way up until the dropping of Palpatine into the reactor, where admittedly, hs breathing got even heavier.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
Point is, I'm using personal observation. When Vader is on the floor missing a hand, he's breathing extremely heavily. All the way up until the dropping of Palpatine into the reactor, where admittedly, hs breathing got even heavier.

Breathing heavy some how helped result in his death?

Lord Lucien
I once breathed heavy. It was with a fight with my son, he was trying to hit me with a lightsaber. The ensuing battle against a younger opponent fueled by rage really drained my energy, something already hampered by my personal doubts and feelings. Then the f/ucker chopped off my hand. Got to tell you, I was winded. Oh then I died.


By the rule of association, chopped hand+grueling fight=heavy breathing, but that translates to "death round the bend".

Yeah--no.

CadoAngelus
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Breathing heavy some how helped result in his death?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I once breathed heavy. It was with a fight with my son, he was trying to hit me with a lightsaber. The ensuing battle against a younger opponent fueled by rage really drained my energy, something already hampered by my personal doubts and feelings. Then the f/ucker chopped off my hand. Got to tell you, I was winded. Oh then I died.

Oh my christ, you're not seeing the point at all. You're looking but five minutes in front of you and not seeing the bigger picture. Luke didn't kill him by winding him, or making him short of breathe.

Let me lay it out:

Vader doesn't breath of his own accord, he uses equipment that aids him. When he's breathing throughout the entire trilogy, it's patternised, slow, once even so often.

Now, instead of shooting me down because perhaps i'm not perfectly clear with me exact point, hear me out.

When he duels Luke and Luke downs him, he's breathing irregularly. Now, judging by the fact that he doesn't breath by himself, when irregularity in breathing patterns occur, gotta wonder: *how did that happen*. Luke damaged the apperatus Vader uses to aid him breath while hacking at him.

When Vader decided to pick Palpatine up, the already damaged breathing apperatus would have been damaged furthermore by the lightning, granted.

Do you see my point...?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by CadoAngelus
Oh my christ, you're not seeing the point at all. You're looking but five minutes in front of you and not seeing the bigger picture. Luke didn't kill him by winding him, or making him short of breathe.

Let me lay it out:

Vader doesn't breath of his own accord, he uses equipment that aids him. When he's breathing throughout the entire trilogy, it's patternised, slow, once even so often.

Now, instead of shooting me down because perhaps i'm not perfectly clear with me exact point, hear me out.

When he duels Luke and Luke downs him, he's breathing irregularly. Now, judging by the fact that he doesn't breath by himself, when irregularity in breathing patterns occur, gotta wonder: *how did that happen*. Luke damaged the apperatus Vader uses to aid him breath while hacking at him.

When Vader decided to pick Palpatine up, the already damaged breathing apperatus would have been damaged furthermore by the lightning, granted.

Do you see my point...? Yes, we do. But as you lack any evidence that the toll on Vader's organic body doesn't alternate his breathing patterns...

Seriously, he was missing a hand. A hand. Not a lung. Not his head. A feckin' hand. If that's all it takes to kill a Dark Lord, then he was shitiest of them all.

CadoAngelus
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yes, we do. But as you lack any evidence that the toll on Vader's organic body doesn't alternate his breathing patterns...

Seriously, he was missing a hand. A hand. Not a lung. Not his head. A feckin' hand. If that's all it takes to kill a Dark Lord, then he was shitiest of them all.

Then i guess since is probably going to turn into a stalemate, due to the fact that i can see your point, but i'm adamant to the fact that something else was going on. I would say it's an error on Lucas Films' behalf...

He was obviously breathing irratically, Luke hacked at Vader violently, Vader got up breathing like a paedo in a playground...

Lord Lucien
There's just nothing that says his life support was linked to his right glove.

Gideon
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
There's just nothing that says his life support was linked to his right glove.

So much truth and wisdom to this... it's signature-worthy.

The Ground
From RODV:

Allowing his lungs to fill with air, he thought: This is not breathing.
Here the med droids had truly failed him.
From a control box he wore strapped to his chest, a thick cable entered his torso, linked to a breathing apparatus and heartbeat regulator. The ventilator was implanted in his hideously scarred chest, along with tubes that ran directly into his damaged lungs, and others that entered his throat, so that should the chest plate or belt control panels develop a glitch, he could breathe unassisted fir a limited time.

So he could breathe erratically, but "glitch" isn't well defined, so it was not nessacarlily Lukes doing.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.