Juyo vs Makashi - Maul vs Dooku (lightsaber only)

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Darth Truculent
Darth Maul mastered Juyo and teras kasi martial arts
Dooku mastered Makashi and the Jedi martial arts

In a straight lightsaber & hand-to-hand fight who wins?

ares834
Dooku wins. He survives a lightsaber battle with Yoda. Maul gets trumped by a padawan...

Eminence
Dooku wins the duel, Maul does unholy things to him in unarmed combat (assuming no offensive Force powers).

Master Crimzon
Dooku wins, although it won't be easy. Maul's style and physicality is quite well-suited to combat Dooku, although he's hardly on par with Anakin on this department. Though he is far more technically skilled...

~:Mr.Anderson:~
Originally posted by ares834
Dooku wins. He survives a lightsaber battle with Yoda. Maul gets trumped by a padawan... http://nickmilne.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/facepalm2sn8.jpg here we go again.

mattatom
Originally posted by ares834
Dooku wins. He survives a lightsaber battle with Yoda. Maul gets trumped by a padawan...
Dooku ran since he knew he had no chance to defeat Yoda in the hanger. He survived because he ran before Yoda overwhelmed him.

Obi Wan tapped into his anger which Maul Did not expect therefore throwing him offguard not to mention he had spent the last what 6 minutes dueling Jinn who was on par with Windu and a Master of Ataru and in an enclosd space and on a thin ledg thre was not much space to exploit Ataru to it's best.

Expansion of Mr. Anderson's sigh.

ares834
Regardless he still survived the duel.

Show me a quote where Obi-Wan tapped into his anger. Show me. Dooku manhandled Obi-Wan with the saber in AotC. Yet Maul couldn't even defeat Obi as a padawan. Also Dooku was known to defeat Mace.

mattatom
I'm in favour yes, Dooku would win but it's not going to be as easy as you make it out to be.

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by ares834
Show me a quote where Obi-Wan tapped into his anger. Show me. Dooku manhandled Obi-Wan with the saber in AotC. Yet Maul couldn't even defeat Obi as a padawan. Also Dooku was known to defeat Mace.

OK from the jedi vs sith guide, this is from Obiwan's POV.

When the last door lifted,I gave in to my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me.

mattatom
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
OK from the jedi vs sith guide, this is from Obiwan's POV.

When the last door lifted,I gave in to my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me.
Must be sur to reference source matirel in the futur i guessed he gave in to his anger.

Janus Marius
This is one hell of an unsupported speculation. He had half of the Clone Army invading his planet, and no goons to throw up against them. Fighting Yoda showed no clear victor, and likely could have gone on for much longer (In Rendezvous, it does go on longer) so Dooku concluded the match because he couldn't risk being captured by the Republic just to appease his ego and destroy Yoda.

But I can't expect SW fans to really subscribe to that kind of logic. He ran, therefore he's inferior, circumstances be damned.



1. Obi-Wan did tap his anger, and from a movie-centric perspective (read: highest canon), it appeared his fury was sufficient to floor Maul. Of course, I personally think Maul was just being careless. He demonstrates a considerable lack of respect for his adversary, which is why he died.

2. TPM Mace is almost as nebulous as full-potential Anakin Skywalker. You can't accurately use him as a bar any more than you could call every third EU Jedi Master a "lightsaber prodigy". After awhile, the comparisons end up leading you in circles with no clear ground under you. Mace as a Jedi is amazing, perhaps one of the best Jedi in the era. But ten years prior to the Clone Wars, there's no evidence of his feats in that time frame, last I checked. And the single quote that Qui-Gon is Mace's equal always sounded bogus to me. Mace Windu never spun in a circle to land a single blow against an armed opponent in the series. That's just lame.

3. Fightsaber says Qui-Gon Jinn is a practitioner of Ataru, and that Yoda is a master. The differences in their styles is pretty apparent. Yoda's offense is so complete, he does not have to worry about openings like Qui-Gon did.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
This is one hell of an unsupported speculation. He had half of the Clone Army invading his planet, and no goons to throw up against them. Fighting Yoda showed no clear victor, and likely could have gone on for much longer (In Rendezvous, it does go on longer) so Dooku concluded the match because he couldn't risk being captured by the Republic just to appease his ego and destroy Yoda.

But I can't expect SW fans to really subscribe to that kind of logic. He ran, therefore he's inferior, circumstances be damned.
No, the one not subscribing to logic here is you. I could list off several sources indicating Dooku's inferiority to Yoda, where he most definitely realized he couldn't beat him.



Don't mistake your interpretation as canon. Maul was temporarily taken aback against a much fiercer foe, but he seized control and won the saber portion of their fight. His mistake was taking time to gloat

It doesn't matter if it sounded bogus to you. Bad choreography has always been an issue in Star Wars. Qui-Gon's got quite a few accolades that aside.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by ares834
Maul gets trumped by a padawan...

Um, no. Watch the movie and you'll see Kenobi get pushed into a pit. He prevailed only because Maul stopped to gloat, NOT because Kenobi was a better fighter.

ares834
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Um, no. Watch the movie and you'll see Kenobi get pushed into a pit. He prevailed only because Maul stopped to gloat, NOT because Kenobi was a better fighter.
Half the fight is in the brain. Obi-Wan beat him. It's not Kenobi's falt his enemy is about as dumb as they come.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by ares834
Half the fight is in the brain. Obi-Wan beat him. It's not Kenobi's falt his enemy is about as dumb as they come.

It's also not Kenobi's fault that Maul was a better fighter than him. He was just lucky there was a pit for him to be pushed into, thus lulling Maul into a false sense of security.

If they had fought in say, an arena (or just anywhere that had no environmental hazards) Kenobi would have died.

Lightsnake
Yeah. Maul trounced two of the best duelists in the Jedi order at that time. Kenobi would have died no matter what without the pit.

ares834
Originally posted by chilled monkey
It's also not Kenobi's fault that Maul was a better fighter than him. He was just lucky there was a pit for him to be pushed into, thus lulling Maul into a false sense of security.

If they had fought in say, an arena (or just anywhere that had no environmental hazards) Kenobi would have died.
"In my experience, there is no such thing as luck."

Your last statement is completley unfounded and irrelivent. Regardless, Obi-Wan beat Maul.

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by ares834
Regardless, Obi-Wan beat Maul.
....Doesn't change the fact that he was very clearly the lesser of the two.




Hell,if the was no pipe (or whatever that thing was) in the pit for him to grab hold of he probably would've died.

ares834
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
....Doesn't change the fact that he was very clearly the lesser of the two.
Lesser... He won due to Maul's stupidity. Maul, like Anakin, is superior than Obi-Wan at the techniqual aspects of fighting, however Obi-Wan is superior in the mental aspects of fighting. Thus he was able to defat them both.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by ares834
Your last statement is completley unfounded and irrelivent.

No, it's simple truth.

And how exactly is it 'irrelevant' when it elaborates on part of the reason Kenobi 'beat' Maul (environmental factors)?

Originally posted by ares834
Regardless, Obi-Wan beat Maul.

But not because he was a more skilled fighter.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by ares834
Lesser... He won due to Maul's stupidity. Maul, like Anakin, is superior than Obi-Wan at the techniqual aspects of fighting, however Obi-Wan is superior in the mental aspects of fighting. Thus he was able to defat them both.

At last we've clarified that.

Anyway, as to who wins this, I'll probably go with Tyrannus due to his experience.

Janus Marius
LS, randomly attacking me out of left field and misconstruing points? That's so out of character.

I never argued Dooku as superior in reference to Yoda, but it's quite clear that he left because staying to fight would result in Dooku potentially getting captured by the Republic forces. Remember, he was fleeing with the plans for the Death Star. This isn't an arena where he can just sit and fight for his own ego. He was an idealist. Get it straight.

So if you have sources, prove up or shut up. I don't have a whole lot of respect for your debating style when you pull this kind of crap. Everyone else here is being respectful, and you come in swinging your opinion like it's a giant belt buckle. Either respectfully disagree with me and prove up, or stow it.



I'm not mistaking my interpretation, LS. Apparently, you need to learn how to read, because you like to haul off and attack my posts without taking them into context.

Let's spell this one out for you in the nicest way possible:

Obi-Wan Kenobi's rage fueled assault floored Maul, who had his saber cut in half and was literally put on his ass.

Are you going to dispute that at all? Or do you just fly into threads and challenge my viewpoints without any intention of debating properly? You need to stop straw manning and attacking points I'm not arguing if you ever want to be taken seriously. I'm not arguing Obi-Wan >>> Maul in any way shape or form, but simply acknowledging what the movie shows us. Again, get it straight.



This kind of blind acceptance of EU statements which lack any kind of movie-canon substantiation is typical for you. The three jedi who got shish-kabob'd in RotS against Sidious were the "best of the whole order OMFG" according to some random quote, and you held it as gospel, instead of being smart enough to realize that quotes and sentences taken out of context or not substantiated aren't logical conclusions by themselves. If I say that Coleman Trebor is the best lightsaber duelist present at Genoshia and the movie canon doesn't back me up (Or even outright contradicts me), then obviously my quote has no bearing on reason, does it?

There's nothing to show TPM Mace in any way, nor is there anything to substantiate that Qui-Gon is one of the best Jedi in fighting in the Order, especially since his skill is dwarfed repeatedly by other Jedi later in the Clone Wars. This statement by its own isn't sufficient.

ares834
Originally posted by chilled monkey
No, it's simple truth.
No it's speculation. However, I also beileve Maul could've beat Obi-Wan.


Its irrelvent because it plays no factor in the fight. Should could woulda dosn't matter.

Lightsnake

ares834
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Qui-Gon is noted by one of the Jedi saber masters to be the best he's seen in four hundred years. Mace was a member of the Jedi high council by that point and was a Vaapad master then. Unless there is any proof that in the interim ten years of peace on Mace's part that there was any substantial jump in his power, then the fact he and Qui-Gon were considered equals by virtue of neither being able to outduel the other does hold weight. You cannot suddenly decide canon statements hold no weight on their own because you feel they aren't substantiated.

That, and Qui-Gon's ability to face Maul for anything resembling an extended period of time when Maul had the Order's battlemaster outmatched in seconds of engagement says quite a bit.
Clearly that quote is contradicted in numerous sources since then. A single quote holds no power over the entire EU. Jinn is worse at combat than Maul, meanwhile Mace defeats Maul's master Sidious. Sidious completley destroyed Maul in a comic, thus Mace is better than Jinn. I know ABC argumetns, or in this case ABCD, don't work but the diffrence in power between Maul and Sidious is so drastic it clearly does. Even more Mace has demonstrated showings in power that Jinn has never or could never replicate.

I guess what I am trying to say is an obscure outdated quote does not hold power over the entire EU.

Lightsnake
In 'numerous sources?' Where are these sources. Not only are you wrong on several issues:
1. Maul is one of the best duelists of the age.
2. Mace thirteen years later-we know he got better in the Clone Wars- is certainly better
3. A>B>C logic is SERIOUSLY flawed in duels.

So, no, fraid you're wrong here.

ares834
Originally posted by Lightsnake
In 'numerous sources?' Where are these sources. Not only are you wrong on several issues:
1. Maul is one of the best duelists of the age.
2. Mace thirteen years later-we know he got better in the Clone Wars- is certainly better
3. A>B>C logic is SERIOUSLY flawed in duels.

So, no, fraid you're wrong here.
1. I never said Maul wasn't one of the greatest duelest just that he is far out of Mace's league.
2. He was ridicilosly powerful at the start of the CW also. I am not stating that TPM Mace was more powerful than Jinn, even though I belive he was, but that AotC and RotS Mace is.
3. Agreed. However when there is a major jump in power as there is between Maul and Sidious it is far less flawed.

Lightsnake
You misread: We know Mace got better in the Clone Wars. IE: after three years of grueling warfare. That's different. Entirely.
As I said: A>B>C logic is not workable.

Pyron_Knight
Dooku is Yoda's inferior but not to the level some would lead you to believe. not when it comes to strictly dueling anyway.
Maul however is not that close to Yoda and never will be. Dooku destroys him.

Janus Marius

Janus Marius

Janus Marius
So bottom line; the movies define the series accurately. Everything else is speculation and interpretation. If something is backed by the movies or GL's own tongue, then it holds water. If it doesn't, it's suspect and shouldn't be held as gospel since that's just irrational. You need to learn to make logical decisions for yourself based on information you're given, not just blindly accepting it because it's there and it benefits you.



Qui-Gon wasn't alone though, and when he was finally face-to-face with Maul and the Sith Lord immediately reversed his rush, within seconds Qui-Gon was overcome because he had no defense worth noting. So I don't see how a Jedi master who literally has no defense against Juyo (Which is supposively Maul's style and the base for Mace's own style) is going to be Mace's equal in combat. If this EU statement is held as true, and Mace had already invented and was implementing Vaapad at this point, then it stands to reason that Qui-Gon had no reason to lose, seeing as Mace has the refined version of Maul's own style and the two have apparently dueled before to a stand-still.

So do you see how the contradiction arises in that blanket statement you're providing?

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
As usual, you're applying some kind of BS interpretation of a character you don't cherish for whatever reason and then attacking the weaker reconstruction that you've created. This is typical of you, and it's really kind of lame. If someone lauded George Washington as a general, you'd probably go off the deep end, talking in length about all his defeats, embellishing their details, and then ending on hating on his personal habits as if they have any bearing on the position of being a general.
Dooku's one of my favorite character in the mythos. So kindly, as in your own words? Stow it.

He's also fully aware Mace is held up by a trio of his Dark Acolytes.


Semantics. This is splitting hairs. Whether he leaps or runs, it's a charge

I think I trust what the script is saying above your interpretation of the scene. Dooku is attacking Yoda, yes? In other words, little by way of issue there. When Yoda is on the wall, he also certainly attacks. The script firmly implies that Dooku is the one at the disadvantage as his attacks are growing feebler. The adaptations imply likewise.


As as we know from Dark Rendezvous, even with greater advantages, Dooku could not best Yoda. If the script indicates Dooku was losing the fight and the C-canon adaptations back it up?

Yes, we know. Choreography is bad, how is this relevant?

How would we be able to tell this? Again: Because you yoruself do not believe it is reflected does not mean it is so. The page I posted earlier reveals Dooku's thoughts on the subject.



I'm gonna file this under 'hypocrisy.' Given guys like you, Nai, Illustrious and Traya. Let alone IKC. Don't try to rewrite history here, Janus

Don't even try to take the high ground here, Janus. The 'difference here?' Let's ask Gideon, or Faunus, or Advent or Red Nemesis or plenty people here how I am in general debates. If I've run out of patience with you long since, there is a reason. You want respect? Fine. But every time you come back, you sure act as condescending as possible in debates.



See, this is a reason your arguments can be treated with contempt. You decidedly ignore ANYTHING that contradicts your views, canon or not. Official script disagrees with what you think you see It's invalid. Novelization disagrees? Invalid. Comic adaptation disagrees? It's invalid.
How about you accept that when people are arguing, they are going to actually use official materials to support their arguments and all those things disagree with you, perhaps it's time to reconsider your position.

Yes, we all know how G-canon works. That doesn't make C-canon any less valid, nor does it compensate for deciding to declare the official script defunct because it doesn't support your view/


Please tell me another way to interpret that scene.

We know full well Lucas went over the novelizations line by line. Know what EU is higher than, Janus? Your opinion. Because that's all you're arguing from and trying to impose an artificial limit on anything that disagrees with you is kind of absurd. I could cite other sources, such as Yoda dueling Dooku at a later date or Dooku's realization he could not win, but doubtlessly you'll brush it off, so why should I bother?
Oh, and by the by, didn't Lucas write the scripts?

So, without some giant thought bubble in the movie depicting Dooku's thoughts on the subject any and everything else official is utterly invalid.
Silly me.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
No, you're just being obnoxious.

Neither Kenobi nor Maul were "fresh" since they had both fought that day. If you want to try and substantiate "How fresh" they were, I suggest you start arguing full-potential Anakin and TPM Mace for that matter. You cannot accurately determine their stamina in this situation, and really, who cares? Kenobi temporarily floored Maul with an outburst of anger. This is obvious in the movie. Maul had his saber busted and was kicked on his ass, literally. You can't dispute that unless you're some kind of move revisionist.
Did I deny it? To use it as an example of Maul's inferiority, however, is sketchier. As we know from all out, giving in to rage and aggression gives you something of a big boost, as seen by Luke in ROTJ and Anakin in almost every fight he's ever had.


It's lame as hell to list one having spent a huge deal of energy previously and also an injury? Maul was again, only overcome because of Obi-wan's suddenly burst of rage. Almost immediately after he seized control of the fight again

I think Advent's provided an ample argument on this already. When one engages one of the finest duelists in the Order and then deals with an assault much greater than the one he expected?

they had the advantages of being in nearly endless war for three years. And that's after the temple? Obi-wan didn't have to to rest on the ship, now? And as far as force reserves go, Anakin's are titanic. Obi-wan's one of the stronger Jedi around as well and his style focuses on conserving energy.


As usual, we see Janus try to remove canon and replace it with his opinion. What part of 'choreography' escapes you? Unless you think any second year kendo student could take Palpatine and Mace Windu at the same time since they could probably take Samuel L. Jackson and Ian McDiarmid.
The scene was meant to showcase Palpatine's skill. Lucas even refuted the idea Mace brought the 'B team' to fight him because, in his words, you need to be Mace or Yoda to contend with him. Anakin, Obi-wan, Dooku? None of them would've done better.
You don't see how my position is logical or how it adheres to canon? That's funny, because nothing in canon seems to indicate these three were anything less than exemplary warriors, one of whom even took down General Grievous in a fight. Do you have anything beyond your own ionterpretation? Because I've got Word of God and tons of secondary sources that contradict you. One of which, oddly the one line-edited by Lucas himself, establishes them all as amazing swordsmen and three of the best the Order ever produced.
What do I believe?



Yeah, and a four year old might have killed Samuel L. Jackson for all the ability he showed with a blade. This is just a pathetic argument. "Bad choreography means they suck!"
Then I guess anakin, Obi-wan, General Grievous, Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Palpatine, Mac,e Yoda, Qui-Gon, Maul and every single fighter shown in the movies is a terrible fighter, given they all telegraph their moves, perform numerous unnecessary flourishes that'd get them killed and leave themselves wide open as they fight, or do we actually acknowledge that the movie, as supported by Lucas himself, is telling us: thsat this is meant to show Palpatine is a talented and dangerous fighter capable of killing three men seen on the Jedi Council instantly?
Oddly enough, every bit of C canon featuring these guys, and a bit of G if we take what Lucas specifically and personally okayed, names these guys at the cream of the crop. Your opinion, Janus, at the end of the day, means nothing. Show this up with actual canon. Or sit down and accept it


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2005/05/06/DI2005050600514.html

Arlington, Va.: You've mentioned before that you met with George Lucas to discuss the book, and that he did a line edit. Your novel is full of very strong characterizations. Did Mr. Lucas's input affect any of the characterizations?

Matthew Stover: His input did more than affect the characterizations. His input was the foundation of the characterizations. All I was trying to do was find literary language that would bring his characterizations to life in a book.

Somehow, I doubt Mr. Stover is lying.

Lightsnake
Give me a break. One of the most skilled killers, someone far better than either Maul or Dooku comes at them, someone acknowledged as the guy only Mace or Yoda can hope to fight...they die. The accolades aren't contradictory. All that's contradictory here is you refusing to accept that this scene is intended to show Palpatine's ability and twisting it so it demonstrates their deficiency. Agen and Saesee have both been given ample accolades and have the ample showings to boot.

Translation: You need to start agreeing with me and stop citing this weird canon stuff to support your arguments.
Give it a rest, Janus. If SW is being argued, then SW fact should come into it. You can't seem to grasp that when official word contradicts your interpretation that you might be wrong.



No, here's a challenge for you: Don't argue from a standard that's just your opinion If SW canon disagrees with you, guess which one people will side with?

Quite so. This has what bearing on the matter at hand?

And for the last time: we know how it works. We also know what Lucas and LFL set up in regards to G. Canon. Leland Chee made it clear when he created the Holocron

Point here being? I'm unaware how this is anything approaching 'stylistically'

Then it's a good thing we haven't branched off that far.

No, they merely contradict what you think. There's a difference.

I like how you go off on a tangent on borderline unrelated issues, totally ignoring the actual canon policy laid down in that G-canon is absolute, while T, C and S are still actually valid-according to LFL's canon policy when it was implemented. Nobody is talking about how characters are represented here. We're talking straight up stated facts you're trying to dance around because it hurts your view and argument



So the Sith were the only threat the galaxy's ever faced When your order consists of men like Dooku, Yoda, Mace, Plo Koon, Agen Kolar, Anoon Bondara and others, that kind of means something. Seriously, do they need a giant sign over their heads saying 'skilled fighter' before you accept it?



Yeah, small problem. Qui-Gon's accolades are almost uniformly from the TPM novelization. Which, according to Terry Brooks, Lucas had massive impact and input in.

It's also funny how the movies never once indicate or say Qui-Gon is a bad fighter...in fact, all indicates Maul is also an incredible, nearly unparalleled one himself. Why is this? Could it be official word is that they're both really, really good and Maul is just better is right off? And everyone makes 'glaring dueling mistakes' in the movies. SW swordfighting does not correspond well to real life sword fighting.

And since nothing ever said Anakin was the best ever or Galen Marek was even better, irrelevant misdirection.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
So bottom line; the movies define the series accurately. Everything else is speculation and interpretation. If something is backed by the movies or GL's own tongue, then it holds water. If it doesn't, it's suspect and shouldn't be held as gospel since that's just irrational. You need to learn to make logical decisions for yourself based on information you're given, not just blindly accepting it because it's there and it benefits you.
Quite amusing, then, as you're actively ignoring whast does have impact from Lucas. Not even going to touch how wrong this is now


Hm, do I sense hypocrisy? Where is Juyo in the movies Qui-Gon was overcome because Maul was simply a fiercer, younger and better fighter. Why is it when someone loses a fight, it can never be because their opponent is just THAT good save when it's someone we like

Just the massive holes in your argument.

Captain REX
Keep it civil, folks. I will say that, by KMC standards, if the novels do not contradict the films then they hold precidence. Subject to interpretation or not, whatever they state can be used in the EU forum.

Gideon
I realize that we've been through this again and again, and we're likely destined to enter the ring on the same subject for the next thousand years, but this cherrypicking is ridiculous.

Janus, I'm really not understanding what your goal is. It seems like you are selecting parts of canon that support your argument and then ignoring the rest. That's not how it works; taking the fact that Mace's companions didn't perform admirably against Palpatine is a sign of their obvious inferiority is rather... stupid, don't you think? The Making of Revenge of the Sith makes it clear that, to Lucas, you have to be "Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." That's ironclad and incontrovertible. You don't get to use their lackluster performance and obscene choreography as a sign that they are anything less than what they are reputed to be in the rest of canon. Does the fact that I couldn't compete with Michael Jackson during the prime of his life mean that I can't play basketball well? Or at all? No, not necessarily. And it's stupid beyond words to contend as such.

You flat out told Advent to disregard novelizations and the narrative within. You're not authorized to do that; they have their place within the canon hierarchy, much to your obvious chagrin.

No offense, but your argument assumes that you and you alone are the arbiter of what is right and wrong within the confines of the saga and that is simply not the case.

Gideon
Jesus Christ. By Michael Jackson... I meant Michael Jordan. *sigh*

Janus Marius
Let's just cut to the point, LS. At least my novels are saying something, you're just nitpicking. I've asked you repeatedly to show me the reasoning behind your assertions, and the most you can come up with is personal attacks on me, or blindly reposting C-canon sources to dispute my thoughts on G-canon material. So basically, you've taken a piece of Star Wars material that is "foggier" than the original, and are using that to combat me instead of... using G-canon material and working from there.

So if I see a fight, and it appears A is winning, and B is not, your answer is to find a source from someone other than the creator of the fight and use it to explain away your perspective of the fight's intricacies? Do you not see the failing in that at all?

I'm not saying"C-canon is invalid all the time, everywhere." I'm simply stating the obvious - that in a situation where G-canon shows something and C-canon explains it away differently, we should rely on the movies themselves to accurately depict the truth. If a comic book or a novel says "Dooku was losing his ass", and the movie events depict the fight to not show any clear loser, why would I advocate the stance of the comic book or novel? Why should I rely first on a piece of material that is not supported by the movies? If the novel says that Dooku was on opium and stool softeners and he could not focus on the Anakin fight and thus he lost, would this be considered a legit "excuse" for the movie events? Is this somehow more valid than an objective look at the original content itself? Apparently you haven't played the telephone game before.



Choreography is relevant. These are the original depictions of the fights were debate over. If you suddenly dismiss their validity simply because of "bad choreography", you'd have to dismiss any in-movie events as well, since they all rely on the failures and short-comings of being a movie. I could argue that Obi-Wan and Anakin were fighting "faster than the eye could see all the time, without pause" simply because GL didn't shoot the movie that way, or I could argue that "Space bunnies bit Padme and gave her a space virus which explains why Luke Skywalker mastered all his Jedi skills in the time it takes to fly to Alderaan" simply because GL's budget couldn't manage that one. Dismissing a valid and important part of the movie as mere choreography is ridiculous. If you aren't going to debate about the content of the fight, why are you even bothering to debate about interpretations of it? How lame is that? Why don't you just write a story about someone's book report of Dante's Inferno then?



Watch the fight in the movie this time. Show me where in the movie Dooku was moving slowly, attacking feebly, etc. Don't point me to a book. I'm arguing with the source material here, which is more valid than anything which comes after it. You can't do that, can you?



No, I actually haven't acted condescending since I came back. Ask tdtd. He even brought up how I had debated with him over a very touchy subject without being rude. I've been pretty laid back with everyone else too, including Advent who blatantly told me to "go watch the movies again", like I'd never seen them. But hey, whatever. Then you come in the thread and the first words out of your mouth is basically I don't know how to use reason. That's combative right there. I wasn't addressing you at all, so the behavior is uncalled for this time. If you're so fed up of my viewpoints that you can't talk to me civilly, stop talking to me. I'm not here to bash people anymore. No one enjoyed it, and it didn't help any. Least you could do is respect that.



But you're missing the point - I've redefined my argument based on what Lucasarts feels is properly canon. I'm actually ignoring large swaths of EU that may or may not support my argument. I'm not even using points from Dark Rendezvous even though they do help boost Dooku a bit. The movies themselves are ultimate canon. The most recent version of the movie is the one which most closely depicts what GL feels should be there. This is his work. I used to fight that for a long time and champion EU, but I realize that it's not the right mentality. A lot of conflict comes from shoddy EU continuity. Some windows are foggier than others, obviously.

For the script? I found problems with it because it glosses over the battle and there may have been last-minute changes. This is not unheard of; the RotS script had last minute changes which involved Dooku basically throwing the fight. If GL knows Yoda > Dooku by a fair margin, the script seems to infer that and it's proper. The movie doesn't clearly show any advantage by the time Dooku disengages, but the fact that Dooku knows the whole Republic army is after him is apparent even earlier in the script. He tells Poggle that they are "surrounded".

However, what I'm pointing out is that you're not making any observations by looking at the movies themselves. When I say "The fight looked in A's favor over B" or something similar, I'm making an observation by looking at the movie. Then you counter with "This book based on the events we're discussing but not written by the original creator says this". Well, great. You've shown me an observation made by someone else who may or may not have actually considered the battle the same way I do. This proves nothing. You have to substantiate by applying reason. You cannot claim to know something if you yourself cannot think up the logical processes behind it.

If I say that Maul was hard-pressed by Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and could not quickly overwhelm them until the environment was in his favor, you cannot counter that with "Well, Book X says otherwise", unless you're going to logically break that down for me somehow, while inferring to the actual source material in question.

Janus Marius
Yes, it does. C-canon is valid only when it doesn't contradict the movies. Even then, speculation and interpretation come into play. No one can define Dooku the same way as GL, or Yoda or R2-D2 for that matter. This doesn't mean all EU should be dismissed; far from it. But we need to learn to be more selective in what we use as sources when talking about movie-specific fights and facts. If I see Yoda levitate the X-wing out of the swamp and Luke can't, I couldn't except a book version of this which says "Yoda struggled with the X-Wing, and a Jawa was hiding in the back, laughing".

I don't see how this is so hard to understand.



Here's all I'm asking; watch the fight, and interpret it in your own words. Make arguments based on your observations. Don't rely on third-party sources to interpret for you. They can be wrong. They likely are, or they're taking liberties with something that's not conveyed in the original work. I'm not coming at you with off-base EU sources; you shouldn't do the same to me.



Edit, nevermind. I'll address this further down.



He absolutely did, before he filmed them. So they do reflect his inner thoughts accurately. But the movie versions may have alterations. Kind of like how Kit Fisto's head was not on Palpatine's desk in RotS, but the script said it was. Also, cue the amnesty bit again. Lucas has a right to change his mind during production or revise it for later movies. He's done both quite frequently. So all I'm saying is that the script is not as clear-cut as say, watching the final product.

If you feel that the final product is inferior to the script which proceeds it, well... We have nothing to talk about. Dooku through the fight to Anakin, and Kit Fisto's head is somewhere on that desk, we just can't see it because of the fallibility of camera angles, I suppose.



I never disputed Maul seizing control of the fight.

Why are you bringing it up?

I said Obi-Wan put Maul on his ass. Short-lived or not, it's there. It's apparent. I don't see why it's so important to you that Maul won anyways. The whole point is that Maul can't contain the rage of a padawan; Dooku did.



Again, how are you substantiating Maul's exhaustion? He doesn't move slower in the movie. He doesn't appear feeble or slow to react all the time. He doesn't limp. He doesn't have a gas tank meter on E. I don't get where you can substantiate his exhaustion level when as you said, he immediately seized control of the fight from both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Singularly, he was better than both. But together, he could not overcome them. That was my whole point.



So being in a droid-centric war for three years makes one more able to last ten seconds in battle without losing the number of their mess? So Maul, who kills entire crime syndicates and droids before breakfast, can't hang with a padawan and a Jedi master? Because he was tired? Did he not have his energy bar before the battle? What are you using to infer his exhaustion during the fight? Again, is he limping or panting? Is he even sweating? And yet Anakin's energy is titanic. Never mind that Maul's more powerful than Anoon and Qui-Gon, both of whom are supposed to be super badasses, his energy level is somewhere around the Star Wars Kid and an asthmatic Homer Simpson.



My entire point is, while Sam and Ian actually make an attempt to fight decently (Even if they fail miserably), they still look a hell of a lot better than Agen and Saesee who don't even respond correctly to someone attacking them with a lightsaber. I don't have to be a martial arts guru to point out how incredibly stupid it is of someone to just stand there while being attacked. If you want to believe they were secretly awesome because of Random EU Book X, go ahead. I'll also wait for the new EU explanation of their partial lobotomies right before they walked into that room, because they'd have to be brain dead to not respond to a Sith Lord attacking.

Let's take a look at Stover's interview.



So Stover's writing a novelization about a movie which he didn't see. He used an older copy of the script which doesn't show all changes made in the final product, and indeed the fight scenes were so glossed over it's unreal.


PALPATINE stands, a laser sword appears out of his cloak sleeve, and he spins toward the JEDI.

PALPATINE: It's treason, then.

A close shot of PALPATINE as the fight begins. Close shots of THREE JEDI getting cut down by PALPATINE. PALPATINE and MACE continue to fight.

Jedi Master MACE WINDU and the Sith Lord fight their way down the hallway and into the main office area. PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down.

Behold, his laser sword.

Stover in his own words: "I didn't set out to write a novelization so much as I tried to back-create, from Mr. Lucas's story and script, a novel as I think it might have been if he had been making the film based on it, rather than the other way around. I wanted it to be not just a good novelization, but a good novel."

So really, why are we considering this to be the pinnacle depiction of GL's intentions? It's essentially a novelization based on a script which was later revised for the actual movie. It's like a faxed copy of a fax.

Janus Marius
You're missing the point (Which I should come to expect by now) - nothing depicts Qui-Gon as one of the best fighters in the Order. It's not a topic the movie touches on, and certainly nothing touches on Mace's ability as a Jedi fighter as of this time but later EU material. So you've taken one piece of unsubstantiated material and used it as a blanket to indicate truth, and it rests solely on the idea of Qui-Gon being the equal to someone we can't accurately depict in a fight at all during this timeframe.

I could almost understand your position if you weren't the one decrying Ragnos' powers because of his relative status in comparison with his peers which you couldn't substantiate or Revan's abilities considering you can't see any of his enemies fighting anyone. The only fight you have to judge TPM Mace on is... no fight at all. Even retroactively speculating with newer material, you're making guesses based on evidence that came after the assertion that TPM Mace = Qui-Gon Jinn. And then ignoring the fact that if this is the case, Qui-Gon Jinn should be better than Maul since Mace has further mastered Maul's style. It even comes full circle and contradicts the movie to make this assertion.



Missing the point, again.

If you accept that all EU is equally valid to be used in debate, then it standards to reason that Qui-Gon has held his own with a Vaapad/Juyo master. Maul is also a Juyo practitioner. Ergo, Qui-Gon Jinn should be one of the best Jedi in the entire series to overcome and defeat Maul, but in reality once he was isolated, he was quickly destroyed.

I'm opening the EU floodgate and arguing that stance with information you consider to be all equally valid. Hopefully now you see the problem with that kind of mentality. The assertion doesn't contradict anything in-movie by itself, but the later implications that Mace was a Juyo/Vaapad master (Which are not in the movies at all) when coupled with this equally valid EU statement then start to contradict themselves.

Escape:

So much for you being retired.



Read above. I'm making a lot of sense here, and I'm redefining my arguments according to established canon policy. If my reasoning shows there is some kind of contradiction, then the EU piece cannot be submitted as valid by itself. It's up to the opposing debator to establish the rational line of thought which makes it valid, not just throw it up and say "Look, I rest my case". Take the latter example of Qui-Gon Jinn being TPM Mace's equal; LS has estabished that TPM Mace already knew Vaapad (Something I didn't bother to double check on, simply because I'm neck-deep in other things) and yet Maul explicitly knows Juyo which is an incomplete Vaapad. If Qui-Gon Jinn can stalemate a Vaapad master, why can't he overcome a Juyo master? Obviously, there's more to it than just form, but you see the issue - it's not like he hasn't fought a similar enemy, according to EU.

Additionally, if the movie shows them as being complete idiots when it comes to personal defense and some random EU book says otherwise and fluffs up their reputations, why would I believe the EU books to be more valid than the movie depictions? Does this not go against established canon policy?



I didn't say that at all. I told her to debate on my level, using the source material, which she opted to avoid entirely in exchange for something of lesser canon value. Novelizations have their place - beneath the movies. Why argue at a lower level?



No, it doesn't. I'm presenting my reasoning in clear detail. I'm even using sources and explaining how my views are relating to established canon policy for your benefit. If you think I'm just being "Janus is always right cuz he says so", you're not correctly comprehending my points. This isn't about my opinion. It's about what logically makes sense. I'm making observations that are being combated by scans, quotes, and assertions which cannot be rationally backed up by those slinging them at me. If you don't see a problem with that, you and I can't ever begin to reach a level of mutual understanding.

Now, instead of everyone flying off the handle and assuming I'm preaching dogma here, actually evaluate what I'm saying and leave the personal evaluations at the door. You aren't here to debate my personality; you're here to debate my points. Focus on them, provide sources, use logic to establish your case. Don't just go "nuh uh" and throw a scan at me, and then accuse me of trying to dictate the truth. No one dictates the truth in this case but GL. How you work to get closer to that truth is up to you

Gideon
I hope this is an attempt at friendly banter rather than an attempt to start a flame war from someone who has just went through a multi-paragraph diatribe complaining about the perceived short temperment of his opponent; particularly when you're not exactly legendary for your single standards or forum etiquette, Janus.

But to that point, nowhere did I say that I am never coming back. I just said that I am loathe to do so.



No, what you're doing is making a not-so-veiled attempt to suborn canon policy to push an agenda. But the "I'm making a lot of sense here" line is telling; who are you making a lot of sense to, Janus? This goes back to the arbiter line I mentioned in my previous response; whether you like to admit it or not, you are laboring under the delusion that you are making sense and that no one else is.



You're trying to pass off your own observations and analysis of the movies to be in a higher standing than established canon. That is where you fail on this attempt; you and I have been round and round over the years on many issues; let's take the ones regarding Sidious. You say you're right and make your argument and I say I'm right and I make mine. At the end of the day, where we differ is that I have always had more canon to support me whereas you have always tried to push your own analysis of the choreography.

That's the fundamental difference. You think Nick Gillard, the stunt coordinator for the saga, is hardly a canon source. At least he's paid to create the combat scenarios. How valid do you think you, a random audience member, are on the subject?

You're not. No one is. I reiterate: no matter how you try to cloak yourself under the belief that you're the interpreter of canon, you aren't (Ush is). That is simply something you're not free to argue.



You'd be right if and only if the canon evidence required substantiation. The various accolades given to the three Jedi Masters who accompanied Windu do not require substantiation unless you're gauging specifically how powerful they are relative to other combatants; it says that they are "celebrated swordsmen" among other things, meaning that they are neither inept nor talentless. Again, you're not free to argue that.



Vaapad is a derivative of Juyo; it's not the same thing at all. And it depends on the circumstances in which the battle was fought, not to mention the old edict of any given sunday.



You've just answered your own question. There is more to it than the form. Combatants are not bound by the same series of feints and attacks; the technique depends on the user. Maul and Mace are two completely different fighters. The fact that Qui-Gon has familiarity with the form does not mean he has familiarity with the combatant using it.



This is where you lose my sympathy. Take your vaunted example of Sidious and Mace. When they duel, they fight like (in your immortal words) "old men banging sticks." Now take Sidious's later duel with Yoda; the fight takes place between two CGI figures or, in some areas, a CGI figure in a stunt double. Palpatine moves far quicker and demonstrates far greater agility than during his duel with Mace. I want your explanation for this discrepency.

My explanation is a logical one: choreography plays a factor. Leland Chee has made it clear on the Holocron that speeds depicted in the EU do not contradict those of the movie; the Jedi and Sith of the prequel trilogy are not slower than those of older times. That's the end of it. It clearly makes room for EU perspective and supplementation.

At the end of the day, those Jedi who went with Mace to confront Sidious were some of the finest swordsmen in the Order. This is not up for debate. Their accolades and achievements still stand.

Why were they not able to contend with the Emperor? Because they weren't "Mace or Yoda."

Why do you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor? Because George Lucas said so. That means no Dooku, no Anakin, and no Obi-Wan.

There. We've argued at "your level."



Don't take this the wrong way, but Ush would be proud of you. This is exactly how he thinks. No regard for the novelizations or other supplements. The Empire and Confederacy are absolutely, irretrievably evil; the Rebel Alliance and the Republic are absolutely, irretrievably morally just and right; Palpatine is a total genius, Yoda and the others were complete fools; there is no morally gray, just black and white; stormtroopers are simply lackluster shocktroops devoid of marksmanship.

Frightening that the two of you seem to have so much in common. But at least he doesn't cherrypick.



I'm not interested in double standards. As I recall, the line that "you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor" and not Dooku was always a hard one for you to swallow and something you completely ignored. For that, and many other reasons, I don't regard you as the harbinger of canon or of the maintenance of George Lucas's interpretation.

We'll leave it as thus. Your interpretations are not, nor will they ever be, canon. They do not overrule, overturn, or retroactively eliminate EU you don't like.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Gideon
Jesus Christ. By Michael Jackson... I meant Michael Jordan. *sigh*

I don't remember why I thought this was funny.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Let's just cut to the point, LS. At least my novels are saying something, you're just nitpicking. I've asked you repeatedly to show me the reasoning behind your assertions, and the most you can come up with is personal attacks on me, or blindly reposting C-canon sources to dispute my thoughts on G-canon material. So basically, you've taken a piece of Star Wars material that is "foggier" than the original, and are using that to combat me instead of... using G-canon material and working from there.
Perhaps you're missing the point: I'm using actual canon. You're essentially whining and throwing a fit whenever someone uses a source that contradicts you and making up some bullshit explanation why it's invalid. I'm taking a source that is used to expand upon the original and using it towards my argument when it contradicts what you say. Your response? To try to argue it's somehow invalid.

What part of "Janus's interpretation means not a thing" do you not understand? You are not the final arbiter, your interpretation is not the absolute one. If I am using no fewer than three sources to elaborate my point of what I saw in the movie, whose interpretation is more valid in the end?


No, you're merely saying it's invalid when it contradicts your interpretation of the movies, that's it. You don't believe Dooku was losing. But others disagree. So do the official statements on the matter. In the end? You are wrong. That's all there is to it.
I also love how you keep trying "But what if it said this! Or that! HAHA! INVALID!"
Please, Janus, do yourself some credit. It doesn't say that, just like the latest Legacy of the Force novel won't reveal Yoda was a Sith Lord. Who cares what it 'might' say? It just matters what it does.



The 'contents of the fight?' Since when did terrible filmography enter in here? I've asked you before, but you always manage to avoid answering it: Could any average kendo student solo every fighter in the SW universe? The fact of the matter is, bad choreography happens. It doesn't change the intent of the scene or the abilities in the context of the universe.


I can easily point to the part after Yoda throws Dooku back and Dooku proceeds to attempt to stirke back.
Again, your entire argument is centered around your interpretation being the only right one.



Given this is about the fourth time you've come back, you'll excuse me if I don't put much stock in you coming back to be Mr. Nice Guy.
And seriously, if you're going to complain how I'm attacking poor you? I don't want to hear it. Youv'e started enough arguments with needling attacks at the opposition. You want me to be polite from now on? Fine, no problem. Remember all the times you didn't extend the courtesy you now want.



You cannot suddenly declare the contnuity shoddy on the whole premise of it being used against you. Nor can you substitute your own interpretation to get at what Lucas meant. If we cannot use Lucas's personal words, we are left with what's on screen and background material. And background material is considered valid on this forum by way of the argument.
Nobody has debated the movies are not ultimate canon. That doesn't make non contradictory material less valid.

Because it 'glosses over the battle?' Why is this a problem? It merely provides a quick description of it

I want to see this proven. When, in the script, was it changed so Dooku 'threw the fight?' Not much seems to support that. Where is this in the movie, Janus? We never see Sidious telling him to. No EU now.

The problem here is we have two official adaptations as well as other sources, one of these was personally contributed to by Lucas-he had a firm hand in all the novelizations.
If the script and novelization back it up, what is there really left to argue? Can you consider that what you think you saw onscreen was not actually what was occurring?

The thing is, countering with other canon, should be taken as a given. I've given you an official observation with someone with actual canonical backing and I notice you never seemed to have a problem slinging around Word of God when you thought it made your case.

For most people who are versed in SW canon, that would be rather sufficient.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yes, it does. C-canon is valid only when it doesn't contradict the movies. Even then, speculation and interpretation come into play. No one can define Dooku the same way as GL, or Yoda or R2-D2 for that matter. This doesn't mean all EU should be dismissed; far from it. But we need to learn to be more selective in what we use as sources when talking about movie-specific fights and facts. If I see Yoda levitate the X-wing out of the swamp and Luke can't, I couldn't except a book version of this which says "Yoda struggled with the X-Wing, and a Jawa was hiding in the back, laughing".

I don't see how this is so hard to understand.
Does anything here contradict the movies? No. What it contradicts is your interpretation of them, there is a difference.
And stop throwing out the what ifs, they don't matter and serve only to make your argument laughable. They don't say that, Janus, and it's about as idiotic as anyone saying 'what if Lucas remakes the movies with Luke as a giant cat?'
You're showing a standard here only because your argument is threatened. If the EU backed you up, would you be having this attitude?



By which you mean I should agree with you as opposed to taking canon into account. Janus, some things in fiction are cut and dry, black and white. That's why Star Wars even bothers to have canon. You're adopting this wounded persona where you're hit with sources that hurt your position and complaining about it. You can't cherrypick and decide things are invalid.



So, changes in some instances throw the whole thing into question? The policy has always been what doesn't contradict goes.

What is your point here? Again, you try to throw the entire validity of something into question when you're contradicted



Then what is the issue?

And this is disingenuous. Maul was caught off guard by an opponent tapping totally into rage and anger, which we know gives you quite the boost and almost definitely not treaiting Obi-wan seriously. He almost immediately seized control of the fight and put his opponent down. Are you really going to use it as a detriment to Maul?


Would anything but a big neon sign in the background or Maul looking at the camera saying "I'm so exhausted" do?



amazing. Somehow fighting one of the best fighters alive and his apprentice together, and taking no time to rest as the other regathers his strength before expending energy in a battle to kill the other...if you're exhausted after that, you just plain suck. You could also look at Dooku apparently gasping for breath after taking Anakin's arm if you wish to use these standards



Or maybe Palpatine is going too fast for them to react to.
Again: Cherrypicking nonsense. You know what the EU has them doing? Actually fighting.
And Sam and Ian get a pass because they 'make an attempt?' Sorry, either they suck too, or not.
And again: Canon>You. Deal with it. I don't care about your interpretations, I don't care what you want. You can believe whatever you want, but by the direct canon? You are wrong and that's all there is to it. Lucas himself has confirmed sources stating their abilities. Not enough for you? Then you're deluded and won't ever change your view because you're simply not capable of admitting your premises can be flawed.

What part of 'line edited' by Lucas escaped you? How does this render his novelization any less valid in regards to non contradictory scenes? Is this just you attempting to attack validity as to avoid being wrong?

Until the whole force thing there, what was contradictory?

Oh, give me a break! It's still canon, like it or not and if you don't completely ignore the part where he says Lucas performed a line edit on it and supplied a lot of information?
How absurd. "It, uhh...wasn't based on the final copy! That's means it's totally invalid! Can't be used at all, nope!"
You've been bleating on about stuff from Lucas himself. When you get direct evidence that Lucas line edited Stover's book for him, which would presumably include the accolades of those three swordsmen, what do you do? Ignore and belittle it.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Janus Marius
You're missing the point (Which I should come to expect by now) - nothing depicts Qui-Gon as one of the best fighters in the Order. It's not a topic the movie touches on, and certainly nothing touches on Mace's ability as a Jedi fighter as of this time but later EU material. So you've taken one piece of unsubstantiated material and used it as a blanket to indicate truth, and it rests solely on the idea of Qui-Gon being the equal to someone we can't accurately depict in a fight at all during this timeframe.
You'd think a piece of literature with info from Lucas himself would be substantiation enough for most people. Apparently I'm mistaken. But no, because the movie never outright says it? Invalid. Cherrypicking. again.


When they get the accolades Qui-Gon does that applied to anything but their own time and had much to put it in context, call me. I didn't notice you complaining so much when you were arguing Marka Ragnos soloing any and everyone


Wait, that's retroactive material means nothing now? Despite being non contradictory, it just doesn't matter? So SW is no longer allowed to introduce things after the fact?
Oh, and Maul uses a rather custom style by incorporating Teras Kasi into it. Plus use of style does not equal pure skill with it. Grievous is also a master of Makashi and all other saber forms. We know Dooku eclipses him



your argument here basically consists of using their forms alone to decide the quality of the fighter?

The only problem I'm seeing is you making no sense.
Mace and Maul are both Form VII users. Maul also uses a DBL which is a different way of fighting and a martial artist who incorporates that to his style and his comparison to Mace at the time is debatable.
So, nice try

Gideon
All right. As far as I'm concerned, I'm through with this debate. Lightsnake has the point well in hand.

Back into retirement I go!

Borbarad

Eminence

Borbarad
Originally posted by Eminence
I don't actually know what your argument here is supposed to be, so I'll leave this one up to Gideon and LS, but it would seem that you're trying to simply sweep away all of EU as you see fit.


Are you suffering from some kind of intellectual blackout lately, Faunus? That appears to be the case since your entire "argument" here is based on plain and simply ignoring two statements.

a) "This is about quality and not about quantity."
b) "There is fact and there is interpretation of facts."

Which one of that two did escape your attention? By destinquishing between fact and interpretation in clear reference to the EU, I implied that the EU does contain facts. Did you just not get that? By talking about "quality" of statements, I have implied that there are different levels of quality that can be found in the EU statements. Did you also ignore that one?

And, just a question: If you, as you admit yourself, don't even understand my argument, why do even try to attack it? "It looks strange, let's hit it with sticks?" Very smart move... roll eyes (sarcastic)



See above. I don't get what is so hard to understand using a fairly easy concept. There is a difference between "fact" and "interpretation". What you are doing here is completely ignoring the topic and attempt to straw-man me. Either that, or you really didn't get it.

My point is not that all EU should be questioned. My point is that certain statements can be questioned, if one has a reason to do so. That also doesn't mean that you have to question them, nor does it mean that you're not allowed to use anything from the EU until it's has a backup in the movies. Still - questioning the existance of durasteel is notably different from questioning the judgement of a character regarding the lightsaber skills of some other characters. Don't you think so?



Why would I? Where is the basis for this ridiculous statement, Faunus?



Oh, excuse me. Mace just implies that Obi-Wan is a greater swordman than himself and Yoda, because they compensate certain flaws with their respective combat styles, while Obi-Wan is using the original form. Does that make sense?



Are you dense?
I simply stated that, given various sources, one could hypothetically come up with a rather long list of combatants exceeding the mentioned ones in terms of lightsaber ability - based on their showings. I'm sorry for the "factual" there - it was misplaced. What I meant was simple evidence suggesting that some people are better duellist which, of course, could also be questioned.



The way in which this particular scene was handed around here implies that speed is the only factor in duels, Faunus. You're pretty well aware of that fact. Do you really think that Sidious could easily defeat those Jedi this fast under other circumstances (more time to react, more space to fight in, not getting jumped by the Sith Lord)? I don't think so.



What I see, Faunus, is you playing stupid - or being stupid, which doesn't make much of a difference. What I assume is, that Lucas was referring to the group of people that either did face Sidious or had the intention to do so. That group of people would contain: Yoda, Mace and the Jedi he used as company to arrest him, Obi-Wan (who wanted to face Sidious instead of Anakin) and Anakin himself (who says that defeating the Emperor and taking over is a part of his future plans).

Any other assertion means that you must apply this statement to every single character in the SW mythos not being Mace or Yoda. This doesn't work, because the statement continues "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor." So here we already have the first exception to the "only Mace and Yoda rule" turning any under interpretation into pointless babble. And I'd also love to see the argument that results in proof for DE Sidious not being able to beat his own RotS incarnation. Because DE Sidious is also not "Mace or Yoda". roll eyes (sarcastic)



Like I said: You're apparently not getting the point. The point is that interpretation can be questioned, no matter who comes up with them. So, of course, you can feel free and dig up every thread in which you want to question my arguments, if you have a reason to do so. Have fun. But maybe you first want to open your eyes and read and - most important - comprehend before starting with that task.

Eminence
Nai
Are you suffering from some kind of intellectual blackout lately, Faunus? That appears to be the case since your entire "argument" here is based on plain and simply ignoring two statements.

a) "This is about quality and not about quantity."You've made the argument that Depa could hold her own against Palpatine based on a single line of thought "spawn from the mind of Mace Windu." His "hype" of Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto is apparently subject to intense scrutiny - possibly even invalidation - yet the same isn't true for Depa. You seem to believe that the idea that she has "surpassed" Mace as a swordsman requires absolutely no further rationalization, despite the fact that she has fewer combat feats to her name than either Kolar or Fisto and only one against a lightsaber wielding opponent.

See here. Key statement:The linked post and the one currently being refuted were made less than three hours apart. Where's the rationalization there?

Answer: It's nonexistent, and your logic makes you guilty of a double standard.

Addressed... somewhere in this post.

I didn't touch the parts I didn't understand. I pointed out the flaws and inconsistencies in those that I did.

The durasteel example was misplaced; I thought I'd edited that out before posting. My mistake.

The skill level of a stormtrooper, however, is very much a topic of note. You cited a proclamation by Ushgarak - I bet you died a little inside for that one - as support for your argument. I pointed out that Ushgarak had "decreed" earlier that "official KMC policy" regarding "why stormtroopers missed so much" was that they flat out sucked, because that's what the movie showed. I then told you that you had to pick one; you've clearly argued that stormtroopers aren't completely incompetent and that there is a legitimate reason as to why they were overpowered by Ewoks, so I can reasonably conclude that you do not share Ushgarak's views on that particular matter.

So, either change that argument or drop this one, or you'll be guilty of another double standard.

If this is what you're argument is based on - the idea that not all in-universe statements have to be taken as gospel - then we don't even disagree. I was most concerned with the myriad of double standards in your posts and the implication that something found in a C-Canon source, OOU or not, could be deemed invalid without contradicting an equal or higher canon source.

I hope that apology was also for calling me "dense." Your apparent typographical error misled me.

It was the only important factor in that particular situation. Regardless of how skilled, strong, or smart those Jedi were, in the end they were simply too slow to counter Palpatine. It isn't a complicated concept.

lolwut

More time to react? Not getting "jumped"? They were standing there with their lightsabers drawn for seventeen seconds before Palpatine jumped. There was a six second gap between the drawing of his lightsaber and his leap.

More space might have helped them survive longer, but please don't pretend that Palpatine got the jump on them.

That seems reasonable.

Right.

See the top of this post. Address the double standards. Until then, the bulk of what I'm concerned with is a problem.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Eminence
You've made the argument that Depa could hold her own against Palpatine based on a single line of thought "spawn from the mind of Mace Windu." His "hype" of Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto is apparently subject to intense scrutiny - possibly even invalidation - yet the same isn't true for Depa. You seem to believe that the idea that she has "surpassed" Mace as a swordsman requires absolutely no further rationalization, despite the fact that she has fewer combat feats to her name than either Kolar or Fisto and only one against a lightsaber wielding opponent.


Simple put, Faunus. You're trying to argue content while my basical statement was directed at form. Of course you can base statements on quotes. The point is: When somebody questions the quote, one should be able to come up with further arguments, not simply repeating the quote ad nauseam and stating "it appears in a canon source, therefore it must be the absolute truth and can't be questioned".

That doesn't mean that one has to question every quote or directly add further arguments ot have the quote accepted. If all people happily agree with the idea, that the three Jedi that accompanied Mace to arrest Palpatine are some of the best swordsmen ever, there is no reason to come up with further evidence that they are. However - once that statement is questioned it would be the onus of the one who brought it up to substantiate it.

Of course you need a reason to question a statement first. If you want to question that Mace Windu was present on Haruun Kal to search for Depa Billaba, you'd need a very good reason to do so. Likewise you need a good reason to question the judgement of Mace Windu when it comes to the lightsaber expertise of Depa Billaba in comparison to his own. And if such a statement doesn't get argued, why waste time with bolstering it. That doesn't mean it's not attackable at all.



See above.



See above.



Petitio principii is a logical fallacy, Faunus. Hence I don't have to "pick one" in this case. That Ushgarak agrees with me on a single topic (the LFL canon policy) doesn't mean that I have to agree with him on every single topic. That kind of argument is nothing but bullshit. Especially considering that the post of himself I cited makes it clear that I don't have to agree with him (because all comes down to opinion and interpretation).

The next thing is, that Ushgarak's observation (as you site it) happens to be flawed. When Luke and Obi-Wan come across the destroyed Sandcrawler in ANH, Obi-Wan utters the following lines:

"And these blast points, too accurate for Sandpeople. Only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise."

So. Obi-Wan happens to be rather able to destinguish Sandpeople from Stormtroopers based on precision in terms of aiming. That is noteable, because we see some Sandpeople hitting moving Race-Pods from a rather long distance in TPM. Conclusion: The Sandpeople don't exactly suck when it comes to aiming an the Stormtroopers are considerably better than them in that very discipline.

Thus, even if you just go by the movies alone, the idea that stormtroopers suck at aiming is simply ridiculous. The best thing one could conclude is that their weapons are less precise than those wielded against them.



What "OOU" C-Canon are you referring to, Faunus? I can serve the quotes once again:

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play." AND "The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"

So: Every source that is not the movies or coming from Lucas himself, contains interpretation of the original SW universe. Thus, when - just as example - Stover mentions that Dooku is hard pressed to defend against Anakin's attacks in the latter stage of their RotS duel, this is Stover's interpretation. If I don't see Dooku being hard pressed to archieve the task (because maybe Lucas changed the whole scene) in the movie, I can attack Stovers interpretation. That it hapens to be in a C-Canon source and given by the narrator doesn't matter

Hence I was talking about the quality of information. If the DSSB claims that Sidious was so powerful that he "blotted out the stars" and I still see the stars shining, it's pretty obvious that I will scream "hyperbole" at that statement, despite the fact that it is not coming from an "in universe" source.

So, yes, essentially one could question every single sentence appearing in the EU. The point is: You need a reason to do it. While there might be a nice amount of reasons to question that Sidious is "the most powerful Sith Lord ever", I find it rather absurd to argue the existance of durasteel.



You are still not getting the point. To even mention their expertise in terms of saber skill (them being outstanding swordsmen) is already deceptive, because they weren't able to use their particular skills in that field. They don't move at all, so why does it matter if those are Padawan's or the gods of duelling? They get blitzed, they die. And speed doesn't belong to the "expertise as a swordman" department.



Excuse me, Faunus. According to Leland Chee, the action depicted on screen could happen far faster in the actual SWU. When Anakin sees Mace and Sidious fighting, he can't hardly follow their movements according to the RotS novel. If that's to be taken as a fact, then - obviously - the movie just shows a slow-motion version of the fight, in order to have the audience enjoy it. And if that is the case, the entire "action" might have happened faster than we perceive.

Which does make a lot of sense, unless you want to assume that those uber swordsman have the reaction time of dead starfishs and really stand there and watch how the Sith Lord comes flying at them, performs some ridiculous stabbing movements in order to kill them - this all without them moving an inch...

And you would also have to assume that Sidious took some cocaine and was high on stardust when he crossed blades with Yoda and suddenly performed far better than against Mace Windu.

Gideon
Why not? She hasn't exactly indicated as much expertise with a sword. She has less going for her than Tiin, Kolar, or Fisto, since they have omniscient sources supporting their accolades.

By your logic, Depa is nothing. We expect a concession any time.

Eminence
Nai, wait until tomorrow for me. This toolbag ^ wrecked my momentum.

Gideon
sad

Eminence
Are you broken or something?

Fight back you moron.

Gideon
I haff bean abyouzed.

Eminence
Shit. I told Publius to be gentle.

Gideon
He wasn't. sad

Eminence
Originally posted by Eminence
Shit. I told Publius to be gentle. I lol'd several times. This was brilliant.

Is he like, still your "master" and all?

Gideon
Yes. sad

Eminence
'Kay.

I recommend this. Just hand it to him when starts getting feisty; it should make things a little easier.

Gideon
Your mom appreciates it.

Eminence
Only with my father!

...

There really is no good comeback for that one.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Gideon
Why not? She hasn't exactly indicated as much expertise with a sword. She has less going for her than Tiin, Kolar, or Fisto, since they have omniscient sources supporting their accolades.


That would be some good reasons to question the judgement of Mace, right? Idiot. roll eyes (sarcastic)
And you need to go and study some literature, I guess. An omniscient narrator has to demonstrate that he is omniscient. If he doesn't do that, he is just a regular third-person narrator who can be wrong. Idiot².



By your "logic" you just claimed that Sidious is nothing. Oh wait? Attack people based on statements you pulled out of your ass is something that doesn't work? Apparently it does in the brightly colored world of Gideon's Logics Special Department *cough*

Now you can go back to whack yourself on the head with a stick - or any other task that matches your IQ. sad

SIRABEN
Why must Nai always be so unpleasant? I find it upsetting... sad

Slash_KMC
There are too many sad faces on this page sad

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
That would be some good reasons to question the judgement of Mace, right? Idiot. roll eyes (sarcastic)
And you need to go and study some literature, I guess. An omniscient narrator has to demonstrate that he is omniscient. If he doesn't do that, he is just a regular third-person narrator who can be wrong. Idiot².
Don't be silly, Nai. If you say you can question Mace's judgment of the trio he brought with him-and he gives them all accolades- then that throws any judgment on Depa out of whack.




No, he's using your logic, not his own.

Janus Marius
Since Leland Chee's job is to bridge the gap between EU and movie (So as to turn a profit) I can't see his word being binding in this case. The duel between Jango Fett and Obi-Wan, or the battle scenes in RotJ clearly show Jedi moving at normal, believable speeds, with speed bursts being used only briefly to achieve evasive maneuvers. If you start to speculate on the way the media is created instead of what is presents, it's easy to lose focus of the most objective viewpoint. If you begin to make assertions about the movie as being flawed and another version "more true" than even that depiction, you're arguing above G-canon, which means you think you're God or George Lucas's father, your pick. The movies are the ultimate version of canon; you must go by their depictions as most accurate. Speculation on how it appears is irrelevant. If you allow for all Jedi to move at lightning speeds, now you must compensate for all the times that they clearly don't. And you must speed up the bounty hunters, droids, the star ships, etc. It never ends. You end up on a slippery slope of "Jedi are fastur, therefore everything else is too since it's all shown at the same speeds" and you end up nowhere.

So tl;dr, Jedi are not "blindingly fast" in combat any more than Jet Li is or Jackie Chan. Leland Chee is not GL, so his interpretation of Jedi speed is just that - his subjective interpretation. One that doesn't appear to make a lot of sense from where I'm standing.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Don't be silly, Nai. If you say you can question Mace's judgment of the trio he brought with him-and he gives them all accolades- then that throws any judgment on Depa out of whack.


Am I sorrounded by some sick parade of first grade students here?
Why to you assume that if one questions one statement of a source, he has to question every statement of that source? This is plain and simply idiotic Lightsnake.

So if I give one missjudgement (e.g. "The sky is green"wink can't agree with a single word I'm saying any longer? Vice versa: If I state something you can agree with, you have to agree with me on every single issue.

Did the lobotomization hurt much?



Whatever you're smoking, you probably want to get rid of the stuff. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Borbarad
Am I sorrounded by some sick parade of first grade students here?
Why to you assume that if one questions one statement of a source, he has to question every statement of that source? This is plain and simply idiotic Lightsnake.

So if I give one missjudgement (e.g. "The sky is green"wink can't agree with a single word I'm saying any longer? Vice versa: If I state something you can agree with, you have to agree with me on every single issue.
You're trying to cast doubt on one statement of the man in regards to the same subject. Mace has trained and fought with all four of the people he's given accolades. But somhow, for SOME reason, he's only right about one of them? No, these are double standards. Play and simple


Insults in lieu of arguments. As usual.

Eminence
Nai
Of course you need a reason to question a statement first.This is what it boils down to; you don't have a good one.

The claims being compared here are about as similar as anything I've ever seen, a key difference being that one has a degree of actual backing in more than one manner and across multiple forms of canon media; the other doesn't.
It helps to understand the nature of the source being cited in this case.

Ushgarak isn't comparable to the sort of canon material we generally reference around here. Paraphrasing him, his word is absolute. What he says regarding canon is KMC policy on the matter, as far as he is concerned; there is no contradicting him, no holding his word suspect. Think Lucas; whatever he says, goes.

So citing him as a source in this case is a little silly if you're actually going to refuse to accept his judgement on other matters; he bans people for that. It's especially pointless when I have this quote from REX made with this topic in mind:G-Canon, and it matters a lot. The idea that the interpretation of a random audience member has weight comparable to that of published material is arrogant and inane.

Yeah, Nai. It doesn't mean conversations happen "far faster" than depicted on screen. It doesn't mean Jedi walk at Mach 4 and the two and half hour movie is really only fifteen minutes.

Not that it has any relevance here, but that's an indisputably N-Canon scene. Anakin doesn't even walk in until the fight is over.

... Really, Nai? It's perfectly plausible - no, probable - that every fight we see on screen happens "far faster" in the "actual SWU" - which apparently isn't the "absolute canon" of the movies - because Lucas figured he'd like his audience to actually be able to see a swordfight, but the idea that a battle between two CGI characters could be depicted more impressively than one between untrained fifty five year old men without any relevance to the above is somehow not even an option?

Are you kidding me?

Gideon
Originally posted by Borbarad
That would be some good reasons to question the judgement of Mace, right? Idiot. roll eyes (sarcastic)

You haven't provided a reason to question Windu's assessment of Tiin, Kolar, or Fisto. Trying to conjure some of that EoD fighting spirit, you jump into the fray to defend your besieged colleague (he's actually better off without you; his words don't sound nearly as arrogant without your "help"wink and you're assuming the entirety of his contention. You're not authorized to cherrypick, Nai. Simply saying "lulz they can't beat Sidious!!1!" as means to invalidate their accolades doesn't fly. What's more disturbing is that you turn around to save face from a compliment he gave to his beloved protege. Not to mention, as I said, she has nothing to support Mace's praise; Tiin? Yep. Kolar? Yep. Fisto? Hell yes.

Provide a means to question the judgment or move on. We won't ask again.



You seem to have this crazy idea that my source is limited to the Revenge of the Sith novel.



I think you meant "Special Logics Department." Seriously, Nai, I'm willing to overlook your seriously compromised English on account of the fact that it's not your native language; but spare us your "razor sharp wit" if you can't be bothered to actually make it witty.

No one finds you funny. At least, as far as your jokes are concerned.



LOL GO ORBIT A PLANET - OR ANY OTHER TASK THAT MATCHES YOUR WEIGHT, FATASS.

Hell, that was even wittier.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You're trying to cast doubt on one statement of the man in regards to the same subject. Mace has trained and fought with all four of the people he's given accolades. But somhow, for SOME reason, he's only right about one of them? No, these are double standards. Play and simple


Insults in lieu of arguments. As usual.

What in the holy name of "You killed what, St. George?" is it, that you don't get into your head. I see, I have to start at the very beginning here. I was talking about logic here: Premises and conclusions. In this very case, my argument looks like that:

Premise A: Everything not being G-Canon can be questioned.
Premise B: Everything not coming from Lucas directly is not G-Canon.
Conclusion: Everything not coming from Lucas directly can be questioned.

Now. Refute one of the premise or the conclusion. Anything else does not belong here. There goes your "logic", unless you want to at an "al" and some "fallacies" behind that word. Got that now? Yes? Give me a call when you need a picture to grasp the concept.

You are again trying to argue content, when I just followed the above mentioned premises to demonstrate something - I didn't argue the statement itself. I just said that it can be questioned and listed reasons why that is the case. And what did you do?

a) You didn't read.
b) You didn't even care about the actual point I was trying to make (the premises and conclusion you can find above)
c) You apparently were just trying to use "ad hominem" because you can't argue what I presented.

And before you start asking: "Ad hominem, Nai? I didn't insult you?" I may also explain that for the not-educated part of the forum: When examinating the validity of an argument, all that matters is the argument itself. "But you said something different five minutes ago", is not a valid attempt to refute the argument, it's an ad hominem, trying to discredit the argument by attempting to discredit the one who made it.

@Faunus:


A good reason for what, Faunus?
Firstly: I don't think that you have any authority to tell "good reasons" from "bad reasons".
Secondly: I listed reasons why that statement doesn't automatically have to be right - which doesn't mean I think it's wrong. Can you refute any of the reasons I stated? Apparently not, given that you didn't even try to do it. So what are you trying to argue here? Obviously nothing that is related to the topic at all. *shrugs*



It also helps to have some reading comprehension, which one could use before mindlessly attempting to attack something without understanding it first.



Can you destinquish between "forum policy" and "LFL canon policy", Faunus? Apparently you can not. Ushgarak's words in regular debates is not absolute. It just is, when the policy of this board here is touched. If you question Ushgaraks words on a fictional topic like "Luke vs Sidious", you have the right to do so. If you question Ushgaraks words in regards to the forums policy, he can / might / will ban you. And thanks for not even answering my post but instead continuing with this hilarious line of thoughts.



Urm. No...it is not. The reason I cited him was that Gideon gave him authority. I didn't use Ush as "backup" for the content of my argument. Because there is nothing that Ush could backup there. Gideon and I were debating the LFL canon policy, I handed in quotes from an LFL official. There was nothing to dispute.

And the quote from Rex. Can you read Faunus? No. Apparently, you can't do the job. May I point your attention to the bold letters:
"Keep it civil, folks. I will say that, by KMC standards, if the novels do not contradict the films then they hold precidence. Subject to interpretation or not, whatever they state can be used in the EU forum."

Where, in the blue hell, does it say, that the novelizations can not be questioned, Faunus? Oh right. That quote doesn't contain a statement like that, because this would be ridiculous. It just makes clear that additional information from the novels not appearing in the movies can be used (hence the explicit reference to the EU forum). Nothing beyond that. In fact it even allows the idea that the novels are subject to interpretation (meaning Rex also apparently agrees with my statement). So thanks for not reading what you quoted, despite the fact you tossed the very quote at me three times.



No, Faunus. C-Canon according to LFLs own canon policy.
"G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon"

Emphasis mine. Unless you can prove that something in the novel comes from Lucas himself (and no, it does not matter if he gave his okay to it, according to himself he "didn't read any novel"wink - which means it must appear in either the movies or anything else directly coming from Lucas - it is C-Canon. End of story.



You are aware of the fact, that I was just trying to find an in-universe explanation for the obvious differences we see on screen, Faunus?

And no. The Movies are not the "absolute canon" of the SWU - they are just what comes closest to Lucas own vision of the SWU (which would be the absolute canon). According to the CW Cartoon DVD Commentary, Lucas imagined the action more like it happened in those cartoons but wasn't able to make the movies that way. So, apparently, in some details, the movies are also not 100 % accurate, according to Lucas himself. They are just what comes closest to his own vision (the "original SWU"wink in general.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Gideon
You haven't provided a reason to question Windu's assessment of Tiin, Kolar, or Fisto. Trying to conjure some of that EoD fighting spirit, you jump into the fray to defend your besieged colleague (he's actually better off without you; his words don't sound nearly as arrogant without your "help"wink and you're assuming the entirety of his contention. You're not authorized to cherrypick, Nai. Simply saying "lulz they can't beat Sidious!!1!" as means to invalidate their accolades doesn't fly. What's more disturbing is that you turn around to save face from a compliment he gave to his beloved protege. Not to mention, as I said, she has nothing to support Mace's praise; Tiin? Yep. Kolar? Yep. Fisto? Hell yes.

Provide a means to question the judgment or move on. We won't ask again.

Can you read, Gideon? Somehow I really doubt it. Let me just quote myself:



Now you have the important part in bold letters. I didn't say, that the statement is wrong. I just said that it isn't automatically right. You understand the difference? Apparently you don't, hence you're trying to attack me for your own lack of comprehension and ability to reason.



You seem to have this crazy idea, that I was arguing the quote when I just pointed out how it's not automatically true just because it appears in the RotS novel. Your further informations weren't even part of this argument. Technically the content of the quote also wasn't part of the argument as I was, as I told Faunus before, arguing form and not content. I just used that quote as an example for purpose of demonstration. So, again, you're attacking me because of your own lack of comprehension.



Seriously, Gideon. Does "LSD" ring a bell?



Oh, the mighty appeal to the non-existant majority again, which myself wouldn't even care about if it was the truth. Can I try it, too?

No one takes your serious, which might spawn from the fact that pubescent, hormone driven teenagers are about as useful as smoke detectors in hell. I know that, I was one myself. Your absolute belief in the written word, possible spawning from your religious education, is laughable. Your ability to grasp certain logical and philosophical concepts is non-existant. This limits your "debating skills" to tossing quotes in to threads and screaming "look - teh canon", without any thinking going on during that process, with the exception of "it's written down, so it must be the truth". The best, one could say about you, is that you are capable of compiling many quotes into one big picture, when it comes down to "Sidious is the most powerful". Which is probably the only part of your actions here, a trained monkey couldn't replicate.

With that in mind, I will just threat you like any other teenager from now on, or, to be more precise, like every other adult my age will usually threat you if you should try to reason with them in reallife (which you probably won't even attempt). Which means: I will simply ignore you, kid. You aren't somebody special, you repeat yourself ad nauseam, you can't grasp the most basic concepts, you aren't smart and you aren't funny. Thus you're not worth 5 seconds of my free-time any longer. Have a nice life.

Gideon
Kind've funny, innit? You lecture on someone lacking the authority to proclaim good reasons from bad and then assume authority to decide who isn't smart. Please. This would be another example of your limitless reservoir of hypocrisy.

All of this is to say that I happily accept your concession.

Edit: And yes, we all did notice you rehashing my patented "you're not funny" line. Originality is not one of your (limited) virtues.

ares834
So many Ad Hominem attacks it hurts my eyes, yet you say

Gideon
Oh, don't bother. Nai's always been a hypocrite. This, friends, is what happens when you become obsessed with a TV show; you see what House has done to this forty year old German?

SIRABEN
Originally posted by Gideon
this forty year old German?

lol laughing out loud laughing out loud

Captain REX
But I love House...

Keep this civil folks. I'm hearing problems regarding the canonicity of things. I will state things clearly; the films and Lucas are G-Canon, that is irrefutable. And film novelizations, as long as they do not directly contradict the films, are C-Canon, but since this is an EU section, you cannot disregard them.

Eminence
...Ringing any bells?

roll eyes (sarcastic)

So you did know what I was referring to. Makes you look like a moron for asking.

You didn't ask a question.

Gideon was being sarcastic. If it wasn't evident, so was I.

Jesus Christ, Nai.


^ I was planning on saving that 'till the end in the interest of not making an anticlimactic post, but it fits just fine. There's enough ownage to go around.

I said the source - the novelization - was G-Canon.I think the absurdity of that line is evident enough that I don't have to highlight or laugh at it.

For the record? You're still wrong. Just because something is C-Canon does not mean it can be held suspect by you if it doesn't contradict a equal or higher canon material. Dooku being hard-pressed doesn't contradict jack shit - I'm sure I'll have to explain to you in full why I'm bringing that up now - so you attacking his "interpretation" is idiotic.

Another thing you apparently fail to understand is that when an author's "interpretation" is published, it becomes canon. You do not have any authority whatsoever to argue with that.

No, that was very much an OOU explanation for what you figure should be happening in-universe based on a statement by Leland Chee.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

I'm fairly sure I win. You should probably stop now.

Eminence
And just for kicks:







Anyone?

Gideon
Why didn't you give me any credit for that?

Eminence
'Cause.

Red Nemesis
Technically, most of those weren't ad hominems. They were insults, yes, but an insult is not a logical fallacy. If he had said 'Gideon, you are stupid and therefore your argument is stupid' then it would be an ad hominem. As it is it is just an aggressive post. Right?

(Incidentally, pointing out other peoples' fallacies can be seen as an ad hominem- you use appeal to the majority ergo you are wrong.)

ares834
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Technically, most of those weren't ad hominems. They were insults, yes, but an insult is not a logical fallacy. If he had said 'Gideon, you are stupid and therefore your argument is stupid' then it would be an ad hominem. As it is it is just an aggressive post. Right?

(Incidentally, pointing out other peoples' fallacies can be seen as an ad hominem- you use appeal to the majority ergo you are wrong.)
True.
As for the second part I was never truly part of the argument, and as I learned, Ad hominems are used to switch the subject during an argument.

Janus Marius
Well, I don't have the time to review all the arguments posted since I last posted tonight, but suffice to say that where I'm coming from is that if a piece of EU elaborates on or embellishes part of movie canon, it is subject to discussion and interpretation, not blind rejection. Because I don't rabidly believe that all EU is equal, I'm being misrepresented here as someone who's attempting to redefine canon, and I'm not. I'm strictly using the canon policies set down by LFL to filter my sources and make arguments based closer to the G-canon truth. They're not perfect, but at least I'm not parroting a bunch of other stuff without thinking for myself, right?

Since not all authors and writers can depict GL's characters exactly in the true spirit he does, some of the "blanket statements" or "EU-only assertions" seem out of place.

For example, things like Agen and Saessee being the "Order's finest" and yet they can't muster a proper defense against a straight-forward attack, or Chee's comment about EU-described speeds not being contradictory (Even though this means we now have to justify why Jango Fett can fight at equal speeds with Obi-Wan Kenobi), or even comments like Qui-Gon Jinn stalemated Mace Windu in combat. Instead of taking statements at face value, further examination should be encouraged in a discussion forum which centers about interpretation of fights in the SW universe. If we just rely on blanket statements and absolutes, we're not really making valid use of our time. You may as well link a Wookieepedia article every time a match comes up.

Being a prisoner of EU assertions is silly, because again, not all EU writers are created equally with GL. They don't share his mindset any more then we do; that is, they just interpret the characters based on the movies themselves. If Stover is just applying his own stylistic description of a fight that he didn't see in the movies, how can I say his impressions were more logically sound than that of someone who saw the movies?

Or, to further that line of thinking, the movies themselves are considered the highest level of canon along with other GL-related stuff, but that somehow includes novelizations, even though those novelizations are not based on the final product, and in some places may blatantly contradict it. If we believe that the RotS novel is equally valid with the movie itself, then we have to believe that both Kit FIsto's head was on Palpatine's desk... and yet not. We have to believe that Sidious force pushed Mace into a wall... and yet he did not. We have to believe that Dooku asked for amnesty... and yet did not.

Are we seeing the contradictions there yet? The movies > G-canon material > C-canon material > writing on bathroom stall.

LFL canon policy clearly states that the further you move from the movies themselves, the foggier things get. I just don't see how people can argue the movie battle scenes by ignoring them and focusing on someone else's interpretation of the fights. Should I write my book report on someone else's report of Hamlet? Is my opinion of any note if I simply aped someone else's interpretation of events, not my own? I realize that it's easier to hide behind established EU material instead of thinking outside of the box, but come on.

Why are we debating then, if not to demonstrate our understanding of the subject material and how we see things happening ourselves?

Lord Tyranus
The Lord of the Shricken takes it. Just barely because Mace Winfield is a PIMP.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Well, I don't have the time to review all the arguments posted since I last posted tonight, but suffice to say that where I'm coming from is that if a piece of EU elaborates on or embellishes part of movie canon, it is subject to discussion and interpretation, not blind rejection. Because I don't rabidly believe that all EU is equal, I'm being misrepresented here as someone who's attempting to redefine canon, and I'm not. I'm strictly using the canon policies set down by LFL to filter my sources and make arguments based closer to the G-canon truth. They're not perfect, but at least I'm not parroting a bunch of other stuff without thinking for myself, right?

Since not all authors and writers can depict GL's characters exactly in the true spirit he does, some of the "blanket statements" or "EU-only assertions" seem out of place.

For example, things like Agen and Saessee being the "Order's finest" and yet they can't muster a proper defense against a straight-forward attack, or Chee's comment about EU-described speeds not being contradictory (Even though this means we now have to justify why Jango Fett can fight at equal speeds with Obi-Wan Kenobi), or even comments like Qui-Gon Jinn stalemated Mace Windu in combat. Instead of taking statements at face value, further examination should be encouraged in a discussion forum which centers about interpretation of fights in the SW universe. If we just rely on blanket statements and absolutes, we're not really making valid use of our time. You may as well link a Wookieepedia article every time a match comes up.

Being a prisoner of EU assertions is silly, because again, not all EU writers are created equally with GL. They don't share his mindset any more then we do; that is, they just interpret the characters based on the movies themselves. If Stover is just applying his own stylistic description of a fight that he didn't see in the movies, how can I say his impressions were more logically sound than that of someone who saw the movies?

Or, to further that line of thinking, the movies themselves are considered the highest level of canon along with other GL-related stuff, but that somehow includes novelizations, even though those novelizations are not based on the final product, and in some places may blatantly contradict it. If we believe that the RotS novel is equally valid with the movie itself, then we have to believe that both Kit FIsto's head was on Palpatine's desk... and yet not. We have to believe that Sidious force pushed Mace into a wall... and yet he did not. We have to believe that Dooku asked for amnesty... and yet did not.

Are we seeing the contradictions there yet? The movies > G-canon material > C-canon material > writing on bathroom stall.

LFL canon policy clearly states that the further you move from the movies themselves, the foggier things get. I just don't see how people can argue the movie battle scenes by ignoring them and focusing on someone else's interpretation of the fights. Should I write my book report on someone else's report of Hamlet? Is my opinion of any note if I simply aped someone else's interpretation of events, not my own? I realize that it's easier to hide behind established EU material instead of thinking outside of the box, but come on.

Why are we debating then, if not to demonstrate our understanding of the subject material and how we see things happening ourselves? *points* What he said. Right there. There! See it?

I know I sound like a grovelling shrew, and Gideon will wish me blind, but still... awesome.

Gideon
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
*points* What he said. Right there. There! See it?

I know I sound like a grovelling shrew, and Gideon will wish me blind, but still... awesome.

No, just assume that you are blind. But you're correct about the shrew.

The problem is that you're basically agreeing that the entirety of canon, the movies, the Expanded Universe, and even the statements of George Lucas should be subject to review by Janus Marius. Or, failing that, by a small group of people who can't even come to a consensus. That suggests a blatant and deep rooted arrogance that I won't assume; Project Holocron interpreted canon statements, events, and facts in a logical manner and that was supported by other canon; we did not simply discard that which we didn't like.

In our most recent argument, Janus concluded that Masters Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto were clearly not some of the Order's finest swordsmen (despite multiple sources confirming and demonstrating such) simply because they failed to take on Palpatine. How can either of you defend that contention or the failed logic to get there? The fact that they were blitzed by a Force user whose powers, experience, and attunement exceeded their own by miles is a sign that they are inept? I rebutted with the fact that if we use the same standards, Yoda's reputation as a wise sage, an experienced Jedi master, and an all around bright character is null and void; after all, he was manipulated by Palpatine easily for years and -- in a moment of spectacular stupidity -- somehow managed to not acknowledge the Emperor raising his hands to during the opening salvo of their duel in the Rotunda, resulting in his prompt electrocution and subsequent unconsciousness. Or the great Count Dooku, Lord of the Sith and powerful Jedi Master was equally inept, somehow missing the fact that his Master would betray him and leave him to die for the chance at securing a more powerful tool.

I can assure you that Janus will naturally take issue with this stance when it suits his agenda or effects characters that he likes. He'll always mitigate the "damage" taken to them; there's a predictable, but thin excuse, for why Yoda and Dooku are somehow not inept and yet the likes of Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto are.

That's the problem I have. This newfound outlook is one of deliberate cherrypicking. Because if he really were a believer in this crock, he'd have no choice to conclude that everyone in the prequel trilogy this side of Sidious is a complete moron.

Lord Tyranus
Originally posted by Gideon
No, just assume that you are blind. But you're correct about the shrew.

The problem is that you're basically agreeing that the entirety of canon, the movies, the Expanded Universe, and even the statements of George Lucas should be subject to review by Janus Marius. Or, failing that, by a small group of people who can't even come to a consensus. That suggests a blatant and deep rooted arrogance that I won't assume; Project Holocron interpreted canon statements, events, and facts in a logical manner and that was supported by other canon; we did not simply discard that which we didn't like.

In our most recent argument, Janus concluded that Masters Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto were clearly not some of the Order's finest swordsmen (despite multiple sources confirming and demonstrating such) simply because they failed to take on Palpatine. How can either of you defend that contention or the failed logic to get there? The fact that they were blitzed by a Force user whose powers, experience, and attunement exceeded their own by miles is a sign that they are inept? I rebutted with the fact that if we use the same standards, Yoda's reputation as a wise sage, an experienced Jedi master, and an all around bright character is null and void; after all, he was manipulated by Palpatine easily for years and -- in a moment of spectacular stupidity -- somehow managed to not acknowledge the Emperor raising his hands to during the opening salvo of their duel in the Rotunda, resulting in his prompt electrocution and subsequent unconsciousness. Or the great Count Dooku, Lord of the Sith and powerful Jedi Master was equally inept, somehow missing the fact that his Master would betray him and leave him to die for the chance at securing a more powerful tool.

I can assure you that Janus will naturally take issue with this stance when it suits his agenda or effects characters that he likes. He'll always mitigate the "damage" taken to them; there's a predictable, but thin excuse, for why Yoda and Dooku are somehow not inept and yet the likes of Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto are.

That's the problem I have. This newfound outlook is one of deliberate cherrypicking. Because if he really were a believer in this crock, he'd have no choice to conclude that everyone in the prequel trilogy this side of Sidious is a complete moron.

Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto were D List Jedi.

They never made any kind of noise outside of the EU.

Gideon
Originally posted by Lord Tyranus
Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto were D List Jedi.

They never made any kind of noise outside of the EU.

They were never featured outside the EU (other than the obvious scene in Revenge of the Sith).

Lord Tyranus
Originally posted by Gideon
They were never featured outside the EU (other than the obvious scene in Revenge of the Sith).

Would they have attracted enough attention though?

Gideon
Originally posted by Lord Tyranus
Would they have attracted enough attention though?

Based on what?

Lightsaber skills or importance? Logically, they'd have shit for screen time; the prequels were about three people: Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Palpatine. To a lesser extent, Padme, Yoda, Qui-Gon, and Mace. To an even lesser extent, Nute Gunray, Count Dooku, Darth Maul, General Grievous.

This is to say that even if Lucas wanted to establish them as badass duelists in the movie, they're still insignificant characters and would thus have little to no time to do it in. Thus why the EU exists: the Expanded Universe, to elaborate on that which the movie cannot or does not.

Autokrat
You know, I think a lot of these problems can be explained by Lucas being a crappy writer who spawns contradictions in his own work.

Sidious needs to appear like a badass, so everyone who opposes him suddenly gets dumb or pathetic. Yoda turns into a fool, the Jedi suddenly suck and Dooku is made an idiot. All signs or very poor writing. In short, SW is loaded with an exorbitant amount of PIS.

Lord Tyranus
lol don't get me started on the downhill slide that Grievous took in RoTS.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Gideon
No, just assume that you are blind. But you're correct about the shrew.

The problem is that you're basically agreeing that the entirety of canon, the movies, the Expanded Universe, and even the statements of George Lucas should be subject to review by Janus Marius. Or, failing that, by a small group of people who can't even come to a consensus. That suggests a blatant and deep rooted arrogance that I won't assume; Project Holocron interpreted canon statements, events, and facts in a logical manner and that was supported by other canon; we did not simply discard that which we didn't like.

In our most recent argument, Janus concluded that Masters Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto were clearly not some of the Order's finest swordsmen (despite multiple sources confirming and demonstrating such) simply because they failed to take on Palpatine. How can either of you defend that contention or the failed logic to get there? The fact that they were blitzed by a Force user whose powers, experience, and attunement exceeded their own by miles is a sign that they are inept? I rebutted with the fact that if we use the same standards, Yoda's reputation as a wise sage, an experienced Jedi master, and an all around bright character is null and void; after all, he was manipulated by Palpatine easily for years and -- in a moment of spectacular stupidity -- somehow managed to not acknowledge the Emperor raising his hands to during the opening salvo of their duel in the Rotunda, resulting in his prompt electrocution and subsequent unconsciousness. Or the great Count Dooku, Lord of the Sith and powerful Jedi Master was equally inept, somehow missing the fact that his Master would betray him and leave him to die for the chance at securing a more powerful tool.

I can assure you that Janus will naturally take issue with this stance when it suits his agenda or effects characters that he likes. He'll always mitigate the "damage" taken to them; there's a predictable, but thin excuse, for why Yoda and Dooku are somehow not inept and yet the likes of Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto are.

That's the problem I have. This newfound outlook is one of deliberate cherrypicking. Because if he really were a believer in this crock, he'd have no choice to conclude that everyone in the prequel trilogy this side of Sidious is a complete moron. Which is exactly why I like it. Personally I've always had a problem with the PT Jedi and Sidious being the best there ever was. If the EU didn't exist, I wouldn't care, but the stuff we see the likes of Bane and Revan and Nihilus do etc.... Movie-Sidious just doesn't show he's capable of that. Lol, it's actually only until Sidious is pushed in to the EU that we see it. But if the movies are the highest form of canon then one has to wonder as to just how we ARE supposed to rationalize why the movie-incarnations pale in comparison to the EU.

Janus has a point: taking everything at face value contradicts some stuff, making it that much more difficult to discern what's true and what's not. Statistically speaking, an enraged Luke with like a month of training took down a man who's 80% of the best-of-the-best, all the while swinging his saber like a club. Inter-movie contradiction ensues when comparing that to the grace of the PT Jedi. Judging by what we see on-screen, there is NO way RoTJ Vader could take even TPM Obi-Wan---the comparative speed of the two is just that different.

In all sanity, Agen Kolar WAS a moron---he was looking the other way when he was stabbed. That's justified by making Sidious "that fast" and "it's slowed down for the audience's benefit." How do we work with that?! The same can be applied to any scenario in the movies, e.g. Jango either moves as fast a Jedi or Obi-Wan just blows.

I dunno.

Frankly I feel Lucas kinda f/ucked we nerds over by some of his declarations.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Which is exactly why I like it. Personally I've always had a problem with the PT Jedi and Sidious being the best there ever was. If the EU didn't exist, I wouldn't care, but the stuff we see the likes of Bane and Revan and Nihilus do etc.... Movie-Sidious just doesn't show he's capable of that. Lol, it's actually only until Sidious is pushed in to the EU that we see it. But if the movies are the highest form of canon then one has to wonder as to just how we ARE supposed to rationalize why the movie-incarnations pale in comparison to the EU.

Janus has a point: taking everything at face value contradicts some stuff, making it that much more difficult to discern what's true and what's not. Statistically speaking, an enraged Luke with like a month of training took down a man who's 80% of the best-of-the-best, all the while swinging his saber like a club. Inter-movie contradiction ensues when comparing that to the grace of the PT Jedi. Judging by what we see on-screen, there is NO way RoTJ Vader could take even TPM Obi-Wan---the comparative speed of the two is just that different.

In all sanity, Agen Kolar WAS a moron---he was looking the other way when he was stabbed. That's justified by making Sidious "that fast" and "it's slowed down for the audience's benefit." How do we work with that?! The same can be applied to any scenario in the movies, e.g. Jango either moves as fast a Jedi or Obi-Wan just blows.

I dunno.

Frankly I feel Lucas kinda f/ucked we nerds over by some of his declarations.

The EU expands of over 100 novels, comics, and graphic novels. Of course we are gonna see more of what the force is capable of. The movies focus mostly on the story of Anakin, and not so much the force. Most of the action we see in the movies come from average force users. When we do see extreme force users in action in the movies, we see a heavily damaged arena of destroyed, vehicle sized senate pods.

If you leave out all of Sidious's force achievments from the EU, you would still have an uber force user. If you just name only his achievments in the movies, you still have him dimishing the jedi order's ability to use the force, and cloud their visions. You have him being able to foresee just about everything. And as far as his battle oriented powers, you have him ripping out vehicle sized senate pods from their durasteel restraints, and throw them around like frisbies, and of course the lightning. That alone is more than most sith from the EU.

If you go strictly how it is shown in the films, then that means Sidious really did throw his fight with Windu. He is fighting like an old man with Windu, but with Yoda he fights with superhuman speed. So that means he was giving Yoda his best with a saber, and not Windu.

Borbarad

Borbarad

Gideon
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Which is exactly why I like it.

Once again, Janus's mentality assumes a state of authority that none of us, including him, rightfully enjoy.



We could discuss this until the stars burn out, but I think Lucas himself has made it clear: the movies are on a higher plateau than the EU. They are more important and higher on the totem pole; the characters of the movies, then, are more important than the characters of the EU. Anakin is meant to represent the pinnacle of potential and connection to the Force; logically, his midichlorian count is the highest in recorded history and he enjoys a special destiny to balance the Force. Palpatine is "the revenge of the Sith" according to Lucas, the ultimate evil, the peak of what evil has to offer. For cinematic purposes, evil is intelligent, cunning, and powerful. Logically, Palpatine is the ultimate Sith. The best. And why shouldn't he be? His influence is arguably the most critical in a medium of the highest importance (the movies). He conquered the Republic, he created the Empire, he destroyed the Jedi. He's better and rightfully so; that's his purpose. Why should any other Sith be better than he is?

That's a stupid contention to take.



Again, something else we could argue until the stars burn out. Lucas himself, according to Nai, wasn't able to depict Jedi and Sith in the movies as he wanted to; his commentary in the Clone Wars DVD says that actual Jedi and Sith would be more than capable of the cartoonish, exaggerated feats depicted in that particular series. But the fights and the powers are a distant second to the story, and so the movies themselves are beset by blatant minimalism. Thus why Palpatine and the rest have been portrayed to be so powerful in the supplementary EU.

Any feat you provide for Bane and Revan and quite possibly Nihilus, I can counter with a better one from Palpatine. This is the man who, during the prequel trilogy, blunted the sensitivity and prescience of ten thousand Jedi on a galactic scale. That alone is better than pretty much anything I've seen.



The feats are secondary to the story in the movies, TG. The EU is meant to expand on the universe of the movies, only blatant contradictions are retconned. Those that remain can mostly be rationally explained and fit to the larger picture.



Janus doesn't have a point at all. These discrepencies can be explained and have been explained. It's just that he (and now you, I suppose) don't like the conclusions. Are the movies and the EU perfect? Hell no, and I have more problems with both than most people do. But they can be made to fit the larger picture; I just wish some things were done differently.

But that's where I draw the line: I don't cherrypick and disregard things I don't want to in order to facilitate my opinions. Janus does.

If you take him at his word and believe what he believes, explanations be damned, everyone this side of Sidious is a complete moron among other issues. If you're prepared to take that stance, then we'll agree to disagree.

But, somehow, I don't think you will. And neither will he. Thus why his entire premise is irretrievably flawed. He cherrypicks.



No one denied that it was a stupid decision to film the fight the way that he did, but that doesn't mean that it defies canon or his intent.



So do I. But the decision to ignore that and create your own canon isn't how it's done. Janus's premise assumes that he is the arbiter of what is right and wrong in canon and can decide what should and should not be included in the greater scheme of things.

That's arrogance in its purest form and it's foolish. He's wrong. End of story.

Eminence
Nai, I'll get to you by the end of the week or something; I've never seen so many words used for such an insubstantial argument.

Eminence
This, however, I can do now:Good job.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Eminence
Good job.





Yes. Most certainly a good job, Faunus...

...with the RED HERRING. *Applauds*

Each post a logical fallacy. Each post not remotely touching the original argument. You're so predictable. *yawn*

Nephthys
Maybe you two just have a special connection.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Nephthys
Maybe you two just have a special connection.

Ah...not exactly. But the last time when Faunus told me he would deal with one of my arguments later (in that case "tomorrow"wink happened on 20th of February. So if "tomorrow" means "not in the next eight weeks", I suppose that "end of the week" written down on a monday is equal to "see you in 2010". wink

Dr McBeefington
I've never seen anyone try so hard at sounding intelligent.

Eminence
Originally posted by Borbarad
Ah...not exactly. But the last time when Faunus told me he would deal with one of my arguments later (in that case "tomorrow"wink happened on 20th of February. So if "tomorrow" means "not in the next eight weeks", I suppose that "end of the week" written down on a monday is equal to "see you in 2010". wink lol AD HOMINEM!

See how smart I am?!

Dr McBeefington
Something tells me Nai isn't going to impress the females with his knowledge of philosophy and logical fallacies.

Eminence
Who cares 'bout females? Outwitting silly pubescent teenagers is where it's at.

Dr McBeefington
Hell yea. Nothing provides a false of security more.

Eminence
Shh! You're ad homineming!

Edit: Also, don't anyone ever accuse Nai of embarrassingly blatant hypocrisy, ever. Removing doubts and pointing out the obvious = some sort of logical fallacy.

Shit, I'm ad homineming!

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Eminence
Shh! You're ad homineming!

Damn damn damn. I'll have to tell my girlfriend i can't see her tonight because I need to memorize all of the existing logical fallacies, come up with my own, and read Plato's Republic so I have something to regurgitate tomorrow.

Eminence
Indirect ad hominem! Also! Vulgarity! "Regurgitate" is a gross word used in an attempt to distract from the original argument! Red herring!

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Eminence
Indirect ad hominem! Also! Vulgarity! "Regurgitate" is a gross word used in an attempt to distract from the original argument! Red herring!

http://www.blackfive.net/main/images/2008/02/21/confused.jpg

Borbarad
Originally posted by Eminence
lol AD HOMINEM!

See how smart I am?!

Yeah. If you'd find the part in that post where I say that your argument must be invalid because, one time, you decided not to reply to a topic, then you actually would have a point.

Now you're just trying to be funny or demonstrating that you have no idea what an ad hominem argument is - and neither of that makes you look too smart. wink

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. If you'd find the part in that post where I say that your argument must be invalid because, one time, you decided not to reply to a topic, then you actually would have a point.

Now you're just trying to be funny or demonstrating that you have no idea what an ad hominem argument is - and neither of that makes you look too smart. wink

Nai, have you ever been on a date? With a woman?

Borbarad
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nai, have you ever been on a date? With a woman?

Yes. But I have to refute this hidden offer to go out with you, not because you're ugly as sin or dumb as a sack of hammers - also not because you're a socking troll...oh...wait a second...

Have you ever been perm-banned for lowbrow trolling, TDTD? big grin

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/3225/riddickulous.jpg

Maybe I should remove you from my ignore list again - given that you furnish me so many fit occasions for random flames. I feel I'm missing some good laughs there. Hmm...I will think about that over the next weeks, months or years. Wish you much fun with the trolling until then, given it's the only thing you're capable of.

Nephthys
Lol

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. But I have to refute this hidden offer to go out with you, not because you're ugly as sin or dumb as a sack of hammers - also not because you're a socking troll...oh...wait a second...

Awww Nai that's the best you can do? Are Germans always this obvious when they're heated? It's ok bro I didn't ask for you to impress me, I asked you to impress the ladies so that you might have a successful relationship once in your life, and you won't have to come back here to get wtfpwned by pubescent kids.


It's ok Nai, I think I speak for everyone when I say you're hilarious and definitely a joy to have around when someone needs to be made fun of. Keep trying though, without you there wouldn't be much humor on here.

Gideon
The tragedy of the situation is that Nai actually believes he's witty. What he doesn't realize is that any and all humor that he might be capable of is lost in the translation from German to English; his mentor and idol, the great Dr. House, would not be pleased.

Eminence
You people are like piranhas.

Dr McBeefington
Nai makes me laugh. Trying so hard to be smart on the internet..... Damn Germans.

Eminence
Don't be racist.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Eminence
Don't be racist.

I'll stop being racist when you hit puberty.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Eminence
You people are like piranhas.



Well. I don't know, if you're right with that statement, given that TDTD and Gideon are both on my ignore list. Which results in kind of one-sided "conversation" of course. That just in case anybody wonders if they type down something I should probably reply to.

Gideon
Originally posted by Borbarad
Well. I don't know, if you're right with that statement, given that TDTD and Gideon are both on my ignore list. Which results in kind of one-sided "conversation" of course. That just in case anybody wonders if they type down something I should probably reply to.

That was a greatlame attempt to convince everyone that you have Darth Sexy and I on ignore, when the truth is that you're simply not funny or clever enough to come up with witty responses.

Dr McBeefington
Not to mention you continuously call me TDTD. That's usually your last resort before blowing up.

Borbarad
Originally posted by Gideon
That was a greatlame attempt to convince everyone that you have Darth Sexy and I on ignore, when the truth is that you're simply not funny or clever enough to come up with witty responses.

Oh well. I have removed the ignore now for both of you. The offtopic bashing can start right now. Feel free to start wasting your time trying to insult me.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh well. I have removed the ignore now for both of you. The offtopic bashing can start right now. Feel free to start wasting your time trying to insult me.

No need Nai. We only acknowledge your existence when you parade into KMC once in a while, with your "infallible" logic.

Gideon
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh well. I have removed the ignore now for both of you. The offtopic bashing can start right now. Feel free to start wasting your time trying to insult me.

No need. It was just a ploy to demonstrate my superior intellect by manipulating you into proving that you weren't going to ignore us. My objective is complete; I'll save subjecting you to humiliation for the debates, which you will participate in, of course.

Higilo
Without the force, Maul would win. Firstly Maul was young and strong, and athletic. Dooku was old and over confident, every sith's downfall. Secondly Maul took out Qui Gon Jinn, some one who I consider on the same level as Dooku. Maul could not only fend of this Jedi, he could take his padawan on at the same time. The only reason Maul didn't eliminate Obi Wan is because of that conveniently placed bit of metal (and to maintain the storyline of course.)

DUOLC OLLOPA
Not to mention the superior in technical ability by a good country mile.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Higilo
Without the force, Maul would win. Firstly Maul was young and strong, and athletic. Dooku was old and over confident, every sith's downfall. Secondly Maul took out Qui Gon Jinn, some one who I consider on the same level as Dooku. Maul could not only fend of this Jedi, he could take his padawan on at the same time. The only reason Maul didn't eliminate Obi Wan is because of that conveniently placed bit of metal (and to maintain the storyline of course.)

Are you implying that Maul wasn't overconfident? Overconfidence seems to be the main thing that lead to his demise. And... while Qui Gon was a great warrior... he's no Dooku... at least in my hunble opinion.

Higilo
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Are you implying that Maul wasn't overconfident? Overconfidence seems to be the main thing that lead to his demise. And... while Qui Gon was a great warrior... he's no Dooku... at least in my hunble opinion. sorry but Maul was overconfident with a whiney padawan, and so he should of been, i find it hard to believe Maul would be over confident with an experienced dark lord of the sith

mattatom
Originally posted by Higilo
sorry but Maul was overconfident with a whiney padawan, and so he should of been, i find it hard to believe Maul would be over confident with an experienced dark lord of the sith
Maul wouldn't have time to be confident with a DLOTS, he would be dead before he could say, 'lolwut?'. Again!

Higilo
I still think Maul's youth, strenght and speed would of given him the advantade in a duel, of course if the force was allowed Dooku could win, but this arguement is about a straight duel

mattatom
Originally posted by Higilo
I still think Maul's youth, strenght and speed would of given him the advantade in a duel, of course if the force was allowed Dooku could win, but this arguement is about a straight duel

Spellcheck is your friend. (RN influence)

Anywho... I'll give you that but DLOTS's like Kun and probably Bane would have made Maul look like wamprat.

Red Nemesis
erm
I hate u so much.
no expression

The IRONY is that spellcheck would have rejected your post as it contains the word 'spellcheck' (which, as we all know, does not acknowledge 'spellcheck' as a word).

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by mattatom
Maul wouldn't have time to be confident with a DLOTS, he would be dead before he could say, 'lolwut?'. Again!

lmao!!!

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Higilo
I still think Maul's youth, strenght and speed would of given him the advantade in a duel, of course if the force was allowed Dooku could win, but this arguement is about a straight duel

Dude, Mauls saber skills, while extremely impressive, are next to nothing in comparison with Dooku's mastery, I don't care about Maul's Juyo or his DB saber... Sorry, Maul loses... badly!!!

Lord Lucien
Maul was a muthafecka in sabers. He may not be at Dooku's level, but the "next to nothing" comparison is unfounded.

DUOLC OLLOPA
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Dude, Mauls saber skills, while extremely impressive, are next to nothing in comparison with Dooku's mastery, I don't care about Maul's Juyo or his DB saber... Sorry, Maul loses... badly!!!

WTF?! Dude, Maul's mastery of Juyo, high end mastery of multiple other forms, and ability to use the double bladed lightsaber, Jar'kai, and the regular single lightsaber wield literally smashes Dooku's one form mastery (you can not argue this, it can be quantifiably proven). They're not remotely comparable, Dooku gets destroyed in sheer lightsaber ability, and even moreso in overall fighting ability when you take Teras Kasi into account, the edge it gives Maul in sheer martial arts ability as well as giving him a rather alien overall form. Even if Dooku were actually able to take Maul out in a pure melee battle, it would be because of his superior Force ability, despite how severely he gets outclassed in sheer melee technique.

Higilo
My point about Maul's speed and strenght still stands, Dooku's mastery was skilled no doubt. But are you telling me Anakin was a more experienced duelist than Dooku, If Anakin canb defeat Dooku because his strenght and youth Maul certaintly could.

Jinsoku Takai
Of course I can argue it. Now, I challenge you to prove your statement/stance (quantifiably of course).

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Maul was a muthafecka in sabers. He may not be at Dooku's level, but the "next to nothing" comparison is unfounded.

Granted Lucien, the "next to nothing" statement may have been a little out of place (I will rarely give ground in a debate, but thank you for the check/balance, much appreciated). However, I stand my ground that Dooku's saber ability outclasses Maul's own. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind about it.

DUOLC OLLOPA
((Firstly just making it clear that this comparison is based on what can definitely be said about the two of them))

Maul:

1. Mastered Juyo.
2. Mastered at the very least two other forms to high degrees.
3. Is trained in the use of the standard single lightsaber, Jar'kai, and the double-bladed lightsaber.

Dooku:

1. Mastered Makashi.

To recap, Maul's mastered more forms (some confirmed to be to high degrees), and is capable of employing them in a number of different manners (Jar'Kai, single blade style, double-bladed lightsaber). If you really can't see how, on paper, Maul's mastery of the lightsaber is quantifiably greater than Dooku's, you're hopeless.

DUOLC OLLOPA
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
However, I stand my ground that Dooku's saber ability outclasses Maul's own. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind about it.

...Would you mind explaining why?

Higilo
Originally posted by DUOLC OLLOPA
...Would you mind explaining why?

Thank you, someone who can explain what i think

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