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Victor?

*Also your opinion on who is stronger in the Force

Are you kidding me?

Truculent never kids about this stuff. He's serious. Dead serious I tells ya.



...



I'm so depressed.

1. Qui-Gon Jinn
2. Marek
3. Unfourtently Galen Marek

Just read Truculents location. Should say a lot.


Ok, im playing. lol

On topic, please...

Marek Overall

He's stronger in the force, which makes up for Qui-Gon being better in sabers.

Originally posted by Anon E. Mous
Marek Overall

He's stronger in the force, which makes up for Qui-Gon being better in sabers.

It seems as though people here in KMC make the force so important (not saying that it isn't), but in the movies the duelists just fight w/sabers and occasionally force pushes/throws and object...

When I played the Force Unleashed, I used the force a lot more than sabers. It helps when you can use overpowered lightning to blast at your opponent.

Originally posted by Anon E. Mous
When I played the Force Unleashed, I used the force a lot more than sabers. It helps when you can use overpowered lightning to blast at your opponent.
Game mechanics aren't canon.

Oh, well... I was just trying to prove my point that Marek pwns with the force.

Is the game itself canon? (Such as the killing of Shaak-Ti?)

The book is.

Qui gon and Qui gon

QUI-GON JINN! FTW

FTW! We talk like this! FTW!

1. Marek. He was adept at Juyo, which requires the skill of all other lightsaber styles... also Juyo was the same style Qui-Gon got wtfpwned by.

2. Um. 50/50? Marek can manipulate Star Destroyers with the force but Qui-Gon can live after death via force.

3. Marek. Death Star Marek canonly beat Vader. And then held off the Emperor for the rebel leaders to escape. I don't think Qui-Gon could do either of those.

So apparently, living after death now helps win a battle, thereby preventing death. Quite the paradox you've got there.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So apparently, living after death now helps win a battle, thereby preventing death. Quite the paradox you've got there.

Yeah. I never said it would help you win a battle, smart one. He asked who was stronger in the force, and Qui-Gon (to my knowledge) was the first to be able to live after death, and even taught Yoda and Obi-wan how to do it too. Takes a lot of knowledge/strength of the force to do that imo.

Originally posted by Hawtsauce
Yeah. I never said it would help you win a battle, smart one. He asked who was stronger in the force, and Qui-Gon (to my knowledge) was the first to be able to live after death, and even taught Yoda and Obi-wan how to do it too. Takes a lot of knowledge/strength of the force to do that imo. Knowledge and mentality yeah, but I don't think it takes a great deal of power.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Knowledge and mentality yeah, but I don't think it takes a great deal of power.

Yeah, i believe any force user could do it with proper training.

And really, Qui-Gon didn't even come back as a ghost, just a voice.

Use the ABCD format
Persuming A beats B, B beats C etc
Maul beat Qui Gon
Obi Wan beat Maul
Vader was better than Obi Wan
Marek beat Vader

Originally posted by Darth Rex
Use the ABCD format
Persuming A beats B, B beats C etc
Maul beat Qui Gon
Obi Wan beat Maul
Vader was better than Obi Wan
Marek beat Vader You get a grade of D.

D for Delicious!


But seriously, F for Fail.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And really, Qui-Gon didn't even come back as a ghost, just a voice.

A strange sense of humour the Force has, yes yes.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And really, Qui-Gon didn't even come back as a ghost, just a voice.
only as a voice in AotC, we don't even know if he came back as a full ghost at the end of RotS. unless anyone has hardcore evidence...

that however is beside the point:
1) Qui-Gon
2) Marek
3) not sure...probably Marek

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
only as a voice in AotC, we don't even know if he came back as a full ghost at the end of RotS. unless anyone has hardcore evidence...

that however is beside the point:
1) Qui-Gon
2) Marek
3) not sure...probably Marek No he was just a voice. Obi-Wan talks to his disembodied voice in RoDV.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No he was just a voice. Obi-Wan talks to his disembodied voice in RoDV.

Ok then, beaten again by books i've not read yet...

Yeah--should probably get on that.

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
only as a voice in AotC, we don't even know if he came back as a full ghost at the end of RotS. unless anyone has hardcore evidence...

that however is beside the point:
1) Qui-Gon
2) Marek
3) not sure...probably Marek

No offence, but I must disagree with the first part. No disrespect to Qui-Gon, I know he was a brilliant fighter, but it seems as if every "Marek vs" thread I read says "so-and-so wins at lightsabres but loses everything else," as if people feel they need to throw the opponent a bone.

Galen was an amazing duellist. He was a Juyo expert (which meant he was a high level master of multiple forms) and was proficient in Soresu and Djem So. He may even know some Makashi (at one point he is described as very graceful and efficient in combat, much like Dooku).

Plus he fought and defeated PROXY who was using Qui-Gon's skills. That gives him advance knowledge of how Qui-Gon fights.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Plus he fought and defeated PROXY who was using Qui-Gon's skills. That gives him advance knowledge of how Qui-Gon fights.

Although Proxy mimicked other's and their styles, he/it was nowhere in their league when it came to dueling. So, to use Proxy as a gauge of how GM would fair against said Jedi... well, it's quite flawed reasoning.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Although Proxy mimicked other's and their styles, he/it was nowhere in their league when it came to dueling. So, to use Proxy as a gauge of how GM would fair against said Jedi... well, it's quite flawed reasoning.

Beg your pardon, but no it's not.

I was simply pointing out that Galen's duels with PROXY mean that if he ever had to fight "the genuine article" he would have at least some idea of how they'd fight, whereas Qui-Gon (or whoever) wouldn't know anything about Galen. Advance knowledge of your enemy is always a plus.

Heck, Galen himself points out that PROXY can't duplicate Ataru precisely because he couldn't use the Force.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Beg your pardon, but no it's not.

I was simply pointing out that Galen's duels with PROXY mean that if he ever had to fight "the genuine article" he would have at least some idea of how they'd fight, whereas Qui-Gon (or whoever) wouldn't know anything about Galen. Advance knowledge of your enemy is always a plus.

Heck, Galen himself points out that PROXY can't duplicate Ataru precisely because he couldn't use the Force.

Beg all you want... pardon denied... mwahahaha!!!

Seriously though... Why wouldn't Jinn have an idea as to Galen Marek? Is it because he has absolutely no idea what Shien and Soresu is? Of course he has some familiarity it. So therefore he has an idea of what combat w/ GM would be like... to some extent that is. Don't say he "wouldn't know anything about Galen." On the flip side, just because GM dueled w/ Proxy, doesn't necessarily give him some great advantage over Jinn. Here (foreign analogy coming up), if I fight/box w/ a robot who's programmed to mimic Mike Tyson's peek-a-boo style, I'd still have no REAL idea as to what it'd be like to fight the real Mike Tyson. Yes, I'd know what it'd be like to fight against his particular style, but not against the real him. What I'm saying is that Jinn is likely as familiar w/ GM's style(s) of combat, as GM is w/ Jinn's.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Beg all you want... pardon denied... mwahahaha!!!

Seriously though... Why wouldn't Jinn have an idea as to Galen Marek? Is it because he has absolutely no idea what Shien and Soresu is? Of course he has some familiarity it. So therefore he has an idea of what combat w/ GM would be like... to some extent that is. Don't say he "wouldn't know anything about Galen." On the flip side, just because GM dueled w/ Proxy, doesn't necessarily give him some great advantage over Jinn. Here (foreign analogy coming up), if I fight/box w/ a robot who's programmed to mimic Mike Tyson's peek-a-boo style, I'd still have no REAL idea as to what it'd be like to fight the real Mike Tyson. Yes, I'd know what it'd be like to fight against his particular style, but not against the real him. What I'm saying is that Jinn is likely as familiar w/ GM's style(s) of combat, as GM is w/ Jinn's.

I'd say thats a very valid point. Simply because Galen trains with a robot capable of "replicating" characters fighting styles, doesn't mean he'll have the advantage. For instance, Qui-Gon could decide to completely mess his tactics around to that particular fight and completely mind-**** Galen, or he could fight like a boring old tart...

Stating that Galen has the hand because he's fought Qui-Gon before but Qui-Gon hasn't fought Galen is flawed...Galens not fought any of the people PROXY replicates...apart from Vader

There is no doubt that Galen is anything less than a masterful lightsaber duellist. Ignoring the fact that he is directly stated to have mastered lightsaber combat to its highest degree, while Juno watches him and Proxy fight she is literally awed by his skill, noting how subtle and refined his style is and how even tiny movements of his fingers create devastating attacks. Not to mention that he held his own with Vader, so unless you believe Jinn can beat him.....

Originally posted by Nephthys
There is no doubt that Galen is anything less than a masterful lightsaber duellist. Ignoring the fact that he is directly stated to have mastered lightsaber combat to its highest degree, while Juno watches him and Proxy fight she is literally awed by his skill, noting how subtle and refined his style is and how even tiny movements of his fingers create devastating attacks. Not to mention that he held his own with Vader, so unless you believe Jinn can beat him.....

And Jinn wasn't a masterful duelist? Also, Vader was but a mere shell of his former self once he had to be confined to the suit. So, "holding his own" doesn't carry a ton of weight here. And yes, I think Jinn would have defeated suited Vader in a duel. Hell, he would have given pre-suit Vader/Anakin more than he wanted. Also, Juno's thoughts of GM's dueling prowess mean little, as she hadn't witnessed other Jedi/Sith in battle, and therefore had nothing to compare him to. Anyone watching a Jedi/Sith/other force user in battle for the first time (or any subsequent time for that matter, but especially the first) is going to be floored by their speed, quickness, reflexes, and such. GM was a proficient duelist, don't get me wrong, but I think Jinn might have been more refined so far as lightsaber combat goes.

Where does this image of Jinn= pwner come from. Seriously, the guy has one failed duel to his name.



He hardly sucks. The guy took out 4 jedi knights at once in RODV, butchered wookies left, right and centre and beat one of the best duelists of the order. Not to mention he cobbled together a completely new style by himself out of 4 different forms. In fact I believe he says himself that by the end of the book he's close to his old level. Not to mention his vastly superior force powers (which is real importance in duels) would carry him to victory. The same can be said for Marek.

'PROXY didn't stay still for a second, attacking from the ground, the walls, the ceiling, even from midair. It was like watching a dance, but one in which the slightest slip could mean death. Starkiller danced with him long enough for her to worry, then he changed his style to match that of the droids- and suddenly she could see the difference between the human and the mechanical. Where PROXY had been fast, Starkiller was graceful as well. Where PROXY had simply slashed and stabbed, Sarkiller applied flourishes to his offensive strikes. Where every move PROXY made involved his entire body, Starkiller could launch an attack with one finger, or block by shifting his foot a single centimeter'

Show me where Jinn displays that level of refinement and we'll talk.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'PROXY didn't stay still for a second, attacking from the ground, the walls, the ceiling, even from midair. It was like watching a dance, but one in which the slightest slip could mean death. Starkiller danced with him long enough for her to worry, then he changed his style to match that of the droids- and suddenly she could see the difference between the human and the mechanical. Where PROXY had been fast, Starkiller was graceful as well. Where PROXY had simply slashed and stabbed, Sarkiller applied flourishes to his offensive strikes. Where every move PROXY made involved his entire body, Starkiller could launch an attack with one finger, or block by shifting his foot a single centimeter'

Show me where Jinn displays that level of refinement and we'll talk.

Exactly. Thank you Nephthys.

Took me ages to type that up.

Jinn was obviously good enough, even at a young age, to impress Count Dooku, which wasn't easy in the least, given the count's level of arrogance and own dueling superiority. Also, while not an actual combat scenario, he sparred with Mace "BMF" Windu on several occasions with neither of them coming out on top. That's a hell of an accomplishment, even if Mace hadn't reached his peak yet. Moreover, the following quote lends credence to my stance; "The Jedi lightsaber master who taught Qui-Gon had considered him the best lightsaber duelist he had seen in over 400 years of teaching in the Jedi Order." So yes, Qui-Gon was a damn good duelist. Not on the level of Yoda, Mace, or Dooku, but very good nonetheless.

And quotes regarding suited Vader, and his AWESOME accomplishments would be well appreciated. While he is definitely a formidable and deadly combatant, Vader, once he became confined to the suit, was nowhere near where he was beforehand.

It seems to me that all the evidence for Jinn being a masterful duelist are about as solid as that of Ragnos being the best.

Sorry I don't own RODV

But... Ragnos is the best!

aweno

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
But... Ragnos is the best!



Do we even know anything about Ragnos?

If this is Death Star SK, then he definitely wins.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sorry I don't own RODV

Meh... me either.

Look, I can see where you're coming from regarding your stance on this issue, and can appreciate that. Respect! However, based on my own understanding of both combatants, I still stand my ground.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Do we even know anything about Ragnos?

he's one of the earliest sith in the canon history...

If you'd all like an argument as to why Ragnos is the best, I strongly urge you to seek out Janus or Nai. I would recommend that you take note of the argument; because you'll see them both take opposite stances when similar circumstances are applied to other characters. For example, Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh fearing Ragnos was once part of his accolades, since the fear is a sign of inferiority. But Dooku being even more frightened of Sidious than they were of Ragnos is not a sign of inferiority, but bad writing. And Kreia's statement in the second KotOR game? The one about how the ancient Sith would make the duelists of that era seem as though they were children playing with toys? That's valid, because Kreia -- for that moment -- was omniscient. Now the statement given by narrators and historical councils of vast superpowers with greater resources and knowledge than one woman? Those aren't valid at all.

On the other hand, if you're looking for a convincing argument for Ragnos, you're out of luck.

No offense Gideon, but could you keep your issues with Jaunus and Nai out of this thread. Hewhoknowsall asked what is known about Ragnos and you respond by criticizing Janus and Nai yet they haven't said anything in this thread. Keep the hostility in the thread that is already in now but there is no need to spread it.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No offense Gideon, but could you keep your issues with Jaunus and Nai out of this thread. Hewhoknowsall asked what is known about Ragnos and you respond by criticizing Janus and Nai yet they haven't said anything in this thread. Keep the hostility in the thread that is already in now but there is no need to spread it.

QFT

um.. starkiller wins all three. just imo. I can't see how he loses. so yeah. plz explain

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No offense Gideon, but could you keep your issues with Jaunus and Nai out of this thread. Hewhoknowsall asked what is known about Ragnos and you respond by criticizing Janus and Nai yet they haven't said anything in this thread. Keep the hostility in the thread that is already in now but there is no need to spread it.

The tenor was the same: skepticism for an argument made for Ragnos.

I provided a response that directed the skeptics to a place where the argument could be made, while simultaneously pointing out that they wouldn't find a convincing one.

But you have my word, father, it won't happen again.

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
I'd say thats a very valid point. Simply because Galen trains with a robot capable of "replicating" characters fighting styles, doesn't mean he'll have the advantage. For instance, Qui-Gon could decide to completely mess his tactics around to that particular fight and completely mind-**** Galen, or he could fight like a boring old tart...

Stating that Galen has the hand because he's fought Qui-Gon before but Qui-Gon hasn't fought Galen is flawed...Galens not fought any of the people PROXY replicates...apart from Vader

Well stated CadoAngelus!!!

Marek knows Ataru enough to be able to duel with it and has been stated to have 'mastered lightsaber combat'. There's nothing to suggest that he would be taken aback by a style that knows inside and out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Marek knows Ataru enough to be able to duel with it and has been stated to have 'mastered lightsaber combat'. There's nothing to suggest that he would be taken aback by a style that knows inside and out.

Your quote please.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Marek knows Ataru enough to be able to duel with it and has been stated to have 'mastered lightsaber combat'. There's nothing to suggest that he would be taken aback by a style that knows inside and out.

and there's nothing to suggest that he wouldn't...they're both very powerful individuals, both with very different ways of applying their skills and power in battle...

'PROXY didn't stay still for a second, attacking from the ground, the walls, the ceiling, even from midair. It was like watching a dance, but one in which the slightest slip could mean death. Starkiller danced with him long enough for her to worry, then he changed his style to match that of the droids- and suddenly she could see the difference between the human and the mechanical. Where PROXY had been fast, Starkiller was graceful as well. Where PROXY had simply slashed and stabbed, Sarkiller applied flourishes to his offensive strikes. Where every move PROXY made involved his entire body, Starkiller could launch an attack with one, or block by shifting his foot a single centimeter'


PROXY's clearly fighting with Ataru, which Starkiller emulates and exceeds.

No... where's the source quote; "mastered lightsaber combat?" My bad. I should have been a little more clear about that. Apologies.

It's in the database of the game, which is held as having omniscient status. It was ages ago that it was brought up so all I can remember of it is that Gideon approved it.

I can't get the actual quote right now becuase I have the red ring of death, but someone else can hopefully provide it . hopes

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's in the database of the game, which is held as having omniscient status. It was ages ago that it was brought up so all I can remember of it is that Gideon approved it.

I can't get the actual quote right now becuase I have the red ring of death, but someone else can hopefully provide it . hopes

The game's official databank, the official Star Wars databank, and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia say that he "all but perfected the art of lightsaber combat" or "mastered the lightsaber" depending on the source.

Originally posted by Gideon
The game's official databank, the official Star Wars databank, and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia say that he "all but perfected the art of lightsaber combat"...

Yeah that's what I recall. The term "all but perfected the art of lightsaber combat" doesn't = mastered lightsaber combat. It means just what it says, no more and no less. Basically that he was extremely proficient, but not quite a master duelist.

........

And what about the quote that read's: 'he mastered the lightsaber'. And how does Jinn even remotely compare to either of these quotes.

Hey guys, I just learned that

the word QUOTE is a verb.

the word QUOTATION is the noun.

so ex: I am quoting someone. (verb so use the word quote)

"Bruce Lee is a God"

that is a quotation, not a quote.

just thought I'd share. lol

Originally posted by kotorfan
Hey guys, I just learned that

the word QUOTE is a verb.

the word QUOTATION is the noun.

so ex: I am quoting someone. (verb so use the word quote)

"Bruce Lee is a God"

that is a quotation, not a quote.

just thought I'd share. lol

My life has sooo much more meaning now. Thank you !

Originally posted by Nephthys
........

And what about the quote that read's: 'he mastered the lightsaber'. And how does Jinn even remotely compare to either of these quotes.

Well, what's the source? Source validity is highly important.

Originally posted by kotorfan
Hey guys, I just learned that

the word QUOTE is a verb.

the word QUOTATION is the noun.

so ex: I am quoting someone. (verb so use the word quote)

"Bruce Lee is a God"

that is a quotation, not a quote.

just thought I'd share. lol

And I just learned that one should begin the first word of all sentences with a capital letter. Damn grammar!!!

Gideon, the ultimate sauce-

The game's official databank, the official Star Wars databank, and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia say that he "all but perfected the art of lightsaber combat" or "mastered the lightsaber" depending on the source.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Gideon, the ultimate sauce-

The game's official databank, the official Star Wars databank, and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia say that he "all but perfected the art of lightsaber combat" or "mastered the lightsaber" depending on the source.



He does have that sauciness to him kinda like Roz from Frasier. Hahahaha...

Originally posted by Nephthys
"all but perfected the art of lightsaber combat"
This statement is grammatically incorrect. If you're trying to defend Galen, then you fail. This statement suggests he knew everything apart from lightsaber combat...

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
This statement is grammatically incorrect. If you're trying to defend Galen, then you fail. This statement suggests he knew everything apart from lightsaber combat... omg i wish i wur az geenyus ass u

srsly man

That's a euphemism, so it's not intended as a literal sentence. That and it's backed up by the quote that he 'mastered the lightsaber' (another euphemism).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Gideon, the ultimate sauce-

The game's official databank, the official Star Wars databank, and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia say that he "all but perfected the art of lightsaber combat" or "mastered the lightsaber" depending on the source.

Star Wars official databank: "the apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat"

S.W. TFU Databank: "The apprentice has all but perfected..."

S.W.C.E.: ?

As mentioned earlier, "all but perfected means he DIDN't perfect the fine art of lightsaber combat. It's plain as day. He was an excellent dualist, but not of the level many here believe.

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
This statement is grammatically incorrect. If you're trying to defend Galen, then you fail. This statement suggests he knew everything apart from lightsaber combat...

Thanks CadoAngelus! I also pointed this important little detail out yesterday, and again today. Details, details, details damnit.. they're there for a reason.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's a euphemism, so it's not intended as a literal sentence. That and it's backed up by the quote that he 'mastered the lightsaber' (another euphemism).

I've busted two possible sources. That means there's ONE left, and it's of a less credible status than the first two.

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
This statement is grammatically incorrect. If you're trying to defend Galen, then you fail. This statement suggests he knew everything apart from lightsaber combat...

What sort of school do you attend? Someone needs to kick your school board's collective ass.

The statement "all but perfected the art of lightsaber combat" means, quite simply, that he achieved every level of it except perfection. That's an extremely high accolade.

Do you even know what the term 'perfect' means. To have 'perfected the art of lightsaber combat' Marek would have had to be at the highest level possible with each form (think Obi-won with Soresu level) and with all lightsaber styles (single, double, dual, whip, staff and police stick thing). To even Approach that level of mastery is fantastically impressive, and nothing to sneer at.

Once again, provide proof that Qui-Gon Jinn even remotely aproaches this level of skill or get the hell out of the debate, because you really are starting to embarrass yourself now and my gloves are officially off.

And stop effing ignoring the second quote, you're not fooling anyone.

Edit: Thank you Gideon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's a euphemism, so it's not intended as a literal sentence. That and it's backed up by the quote that he 'mastered the lightsaber' (another euphemism).

Whaaaaa? Are you kidding. What qualifies you to make this kind of gramatical judgement? Of course it's meant to be taken just as it's written. It's not poetry.

Respond to the posts immediately above yours, please.

I am disappointed by this entire forum. The attempts to claim grammar and the poorly executed... well, everything is making me sad. You've driven me to my hugbox.

A quote from Wookiepedia:


Another quote from Wookiepedia: