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Location - Death Star

Emperor is taunting Luke to the darkside

Line Up:
TPM Obi Wan
ANH Obi Wan
ROTS Obi Wan

Luke is at full strength for each battle.

How far does he get?

No where. Luke sucks. And as we've seen, the only thing that pushes Luke to the Dark is when his father taunts him. Of course, why Obi-Wan's not also affected is anyone's guess.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No where. Luke sucks. And as we've seen, the only thing that pushes Luke to the Dark is when his father taunts him.

Actually that isn't true, the novel made it clear that Luke was using his anger from the beginning of his duel with Vader(before Vader taunted him about Leia) and was having trouble with his emotions when he was watching the space battle with the emperor taunting him.

I think he might be able to handle TPM and ANH Obi-Wan in a duel if pushed into a fury, but ROTS Obi-Wan fillets him.

During Star Wars History people have been known to grow in power quite quickly. Luke being one of them. Is there anyway to measure Luke's growth from ESB to ROTJ? The only thing I go by is the quotes from Yoda and Vader that state he was ready to engage Vader.

Originally posted by Kotor3
During Star Wars History people have been known to grow in power quite quickly. Luke being one of them. Is there anyway to measure Luke's growth from ESB to ROTJ? The only thing I go by is the quotes from Yoda and Vader that state he was ready to engage Vader. Yet incidentally, he was only able to defeat Vader when he used the Dark Side. Either Yoda was an idiot, or he was speaking about Luke's mentality.

Edit: Wins the first, loses to the second, loses the last.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yet incidentally, he was only able to defeat Vader when he used the Dark Side. Either Yoda was an idiot, or he was speaking about Luke's mentality.

What you said is true, I agree. Here is a thought due to Luke's lack of training in terms of controlling his anger by the time of ROTJ it seems that using aggression is natural for Luke when fighting. He does not fully know how to be fully focus without using aggression when fighting.

This is speculation but in the heat of battle especially if he was losing it would seem that Luke would automatically let out his aggression.

Luke's actual strength in the Force is considerable, but there was never anything to indicate he was better than a properly trained Jedi. A lot of people are taking his fight with Vader clearly out of context. Vader was toying with Luke to turn him to the dark side and was clearly exploiting the moment at the Emperor's bidding. That Luke overcame him says more about the lengths Vader was willing to go rather than anything about Luke's dueling skill. Let's get a quick reminder in here about Luke's fighting style:

http://i43.tinypic.com/23sjk0k.gif

He's just hacking away like a demented lumberjack. How anyone could equate that with dueling skill is beyond me. Even TPM Obi-Wan shows better footwork, offensive measures, and positioning than RotJ Luke Skywalker. If Luke's anger just makes him hit harder, he's not suddenly a better opponent. And considering the only fights we get to grade him on happen between him and his dad (read: the only person who can send him over the edge), I don't think playing the "anger" card does him any favors.

He's simply outclassed, talent aside.

I do not agree with your comment. Janus. In ESB it is clear that Vader is toying with Luke and trying to turn him to the dark side. There is no such indication of this in ROTJ. The same statement can be said about Luke who was not going all out on Vader. He did not due so until Vader mention his sister then Luke lost control.

As for the dueling it is up for speculation, you are taking about two different styles depicted in the movies for two different periods of time. Vader and Luke in my opinion fought like Knights whereas in TPM, AOTC, ROTS, they fought like a mixture of ninja and samurai.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I do not agree with your comment. Janus. In ESB it is clear that Vader is toying with Luke and trying to turn him to the dark side. There is no such indication of this in ROTJ. The same statement can be said about Luke who was not going all out on Vader. He did not due so until Vader mention his sister then Luke lost control.


I'll prove this wrong as soon as find the post I made of the ROTJ duel

Here it is from the ROTJ novel,

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Before the duel started there are quotes such as these that describe Luke being affected by the emperor's taunts him which makes Luke come to his senses.


Luke watched in impotent horror, as the unbelievably huge laser beam radiated out from the muzzle of the Death Star. It touched -for only an instant - one of the Rebel Star Cruisers that was surging in the midst of the heaviest fighting. And in the next instant, the Star Cruiser was vaporized. Blown to dust. Returned to its most elemental particles, in a single burst of light. In the numbing grip of despair, with the hollowest of voids devouring his heart, Luke's eyes, alone, glinted - for he saw, again, his lightsaber, lying unattended on the throne. And in this bleak and livid moment, the dark side was much with him .......


Luke's face was contorted, reflecting his spirit. Vader watched him carefully, as did the Emperor. The lightsaber began to shake on its resting place. The young Jedi's hand was trembling, his lips pulled back in grimace, his teeth grinding.

The Emperor smiled. 'Good. I can feel your anger. I am defenseless - take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey toward the dark side will be complete.' He laughed, and laughed.

Luke was able to resist no longer. The lightsaber rattled violently on the throne a moment, then flew into his hand, impelled by the Force. He ignited it a moment later and swung it with his full weight downward toward the Emperor's skull....


I think this further add proof to what we see in the movie of him giving into his anger to strike at the emperor and he continued using this vs Vader, especially based on his thoughts before the emperor says, "use your aggressive feelings, boy!"

Slowly, Luke and Vader circled. Lightsaber high above his head, Luke readied his attack from classic first-position; the Dark Lord held a lateral stance, in classic answer. Without announcement, Luke brought his blade straight down - then, when Vader moved to parry, Luke feinted and cut low. Vader counterparried, let the impact direct his sword toward Luke's throat... but Luke met the riposte and stepped back. The first blows, traded without injury. Again, they circled.

Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first - training by both Vader and Palpatine - before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy.

So Vader had to shepherd the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing damage in the wrong places - or in the right places prematurely.

Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again - much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader's phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously - but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees.


Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so overpowering as to totally obliterate all other considerations.

He had the power; the choice was his.

And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer.

It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil.

He took one step forward.

For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

These things were mirrored, each face, by the young Jedi who now towered above him. The Emperor, watching joyously, saw this, and goaded Luke on to revel in his Darkness. 'Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Yes! Let the hate flow through you! Become one with it, let it nourish you!'

Luke faltered a moment - then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity - gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation.

He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being.

In that instant, Vader attacked. He lunged half up the stairs, forcing Luke to reverse defensively. He bound the boy's blade with his own, but Luke disengaged and leaped to the safety of an overhead gantry. Vader jumped over the railing to the floor beneath the platform on which Luke stood.

'I will not fight you, Father,' Luke stated

'You are unwise to lower your defenses,' Vader warned. His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.




After this Luke runs from Vader's attack then hides, and goes berserk when Leia is brought up.

Ok Elite, since the novel supports that line of thought I will go with it.

To make this more interesting I will make it berserk ROTJ Luke vs Obi Wan's different versions.