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standard equipment

No bumps, huh? Well, I'm curious as to how this might play out.

Originally posted by XanatosForever
No bumps, huh? Well, I'm curious as to how this might play out. i guess no one likes an old hero

Technically speaking, Link is older than Zero.

this is the only zero i can think of but are you talking about zero from mega man x? if it is zero takes it, i mean he is fast he can clib walls he is armored stonger than link and has energyblasts, but if its not that zero just let me know

Originally posted by niduin
this is the only zero i can think of but are you talking about zero from mega man x? if it is zero takes it, i mean he is fast he can clib walls he is armored stonger than link and has energyblasts, but if its not that zero just let me know

^BS. Please, browse a few of the other Link vs threads to see why your statement is incorrect.

I dunno, I think TP Link would have some trouble with teh Zero. I mean, look at his ponytail...Damn. o.O

Originally posted by LLLLLink
^BS. Please, browse a few of the other Link vs threads to see why your statement is incorrect. Nah, Niduin is right; Zero does outclass Link in physical stats, greatly in some areas. Also, he can use most of his techniques without draining his power and ammo. The same cannot be said of Link (limited number of bombs, arrows, limited magic meter).

Zero also has a huge advantage in combat experience. He's been fighting war machines and developing his skills for over a century. Link, while skilled, is still a teenage boy.

If you arent going research both characters, dont post please. Neither of you realize the reach of Link's abilities.

I know Link. With standard equipment, his strength, speed, and durability is not on Zero's level. And I just provided a fraction of what Zero offers.

This is no slam against Link, but he's up against the android God of Destruction here. And how in the world are you going to argue skill in favor of Link? He's been fighting for a very short period of time. Zero has over a century of fighting under his belt.

And yet Link is capable of going toe to toe with someone else with centuries of fighting experience.

Link seems to be preternaturally skilled with any weapon he uses, in TP he gets the bow and can immediately hit a small pole, about an inch thick, with an arrow at a distance of about a uarter mile. I have a theory about why this is, but why isn't important.

Link's also got super human reflexes and god-like strength. <--Built in. TP Link wears no special items to attain these.

I would point out that Link never competes with Ganon with skill alone. He always has weapons, upgrades, and magic to help him. Could a standard Link stalemate Ganon with just his sword skills? I don't think so.

What strength feats does Link have that do not make use of his upgrades, such as the Power Bracelets, the Silver/Golden Gauntlets, or his boots?

We know that Mega Man has been shown to have vast super human strength. He has lifted a portion of Dr. Wily's fortress at the foundational level and has tossed three-story tall robots. And Zero has officially been stated to be stronger than Mega Man. With his strength alone (no special weapons), Zero has been shown to create earthquakes and shock-waves just by punching the ground. In his Maverick state, he was tearing through walls and heavily armored reploids with his bare hands.

Standard Equipment?

So, Link is armed with A Sword & Shield combination versus Zero who is equipped with the Z-saber & Z-buster?! Here's what I see: Link gets laid out on his back in five seconds flat and if he's lucky enough to not die. Maybe just maybe, he could get away playing the "Song of retreat" on his magical instrument and live to lose another day.

You haven't played Twilight Princess? Link in TP gets no magic meter, or strength enhancing gauntlets, sorry to say. The final battle is a one on one sword fight vs Ganondorf himself, during which Link even overpowers Ganon. TP Link is debatably as strong as OoT Link, or stronger, but I haven't done the math on him yet.

Anyway, TP Link has incredible skill, and strength, and reflexes.

Also, "standard equipment" doesn't say much, let's get him back in here to tell us exactly what that is for each character.

Sadly, I haven't been able to get far in TP due to lack of Wii/Cube. ;_;

Ugh, now I really don't like TP Link's chances against Zero, since he has virtually no magical abilities.

As for Link overpowering Ganondorf (humanoid version), that's impressive, but not as impressive as if he'd overpowered Ganon (monster version). Also coloring Link's victory against Ganondorf is the fact that the latter had already received a wound from the Master Sword (which was open at the time) and had been previously assaulted by Arrows of Light.

Don't get me wrong, the fact that Link could push back Ganondorf at all is very impressive, but I don't think it stands up as a strength feat when comparing it to the stuff Zero can do (punch through thick steel and cause quakes with a blow).

Actually, that wound was not from the master sword at all :P
For TP Link to punch through thick steel actually wouldn't at all be unexpected, given that he can not only throw, but completely halt and reverse the momentum of a giant piece of living granite. I still have to math the forces involved, but I suspect it'd be sufficient to have Link casually tear I beams out of sky scrapers, it drive his fists through solid steel of any thickness.

Standard Equipment would most likely be interpreted as the default tools that each character has. I see Z-Saber cutting through his shield and Sword like a hot knife trhough butter before eviscerating him and Even if we give him a Bow & Arrows for this fight. Z-Buster still trounces him and Zero's Z-Saber in some versions is a ranged weapon. So, even with the Z-Saber alone Zero could take this. At the end of the day Zero has Superior base weapons over Link.

You vastly underestimate the durability of both Link and his sword. The Master Sword is for all intents and purposes indestructable. Hylian shield's kind of an odd subject, it's clearly stronger than regular steel, how much so we don't know.

The enchantments on the Master Sword have never granted it invulnerability to my knowledge. It can just "Purge evil" like any other vague magic plot device. The bottom line is Zero has an energy weapon which should cut through Links weapons like a hot knife through butter in a realistic context IMO. I don't see any other way we can realistically compare them.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Actually, that wound was not from the master sword at all :P
For TP Link to punch through thick steel actually wouldn't at all be unexpected, given that he can not only throw, but completely halt and reverse the momentum of a giant piece of living granite. I still have to math the forces involved, but I suspect it'd be sufficient to have Link casually tear I beams out of sky scrapers, it drive his fists through solid steel of any thickness. I was speaking of the wound the Sages gave Ganondorf, which Link took advantage of to defeat him.

I don't know TP that well, but if by "giant piece of living granite" you're talking about the Gorons, then didn't the Iron Boots have something to do with Link being able to pass them (including defeating Gor Coron)?

I have to agree with Classic NES; its not to say that Link is weak, but he's not exactly up against a Moblin here.

If the sword were something that could be destroyed it would have been destroyed many many times. In a realistic setting an 'energy weapon' wouldn't function at all, let's be honest. It's not cutting through the master sword.

Iron Boots gave him the friction to resist their momentum, but eveything else was powered by his muscles, basicly he nailed his feet to the floor and caught a cannon ball. Same principle. And Link is one of the most under-estimated characters ever.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
If the sword were something that could be destroyed it would have been destroyed many many times. In a realistic setting an 'energy weapon' wouldn't function at all, let's be honest. It's not cutting through the master sword.

First of all energy weapons do exsist, ever heard of a laser? Second of all, unless the story calls for it the sword will never break. It's the sameway that links wooden sheild can take blows from metal weapons it's a work of fiction. Sword fights in fiction are unrealistic, since smashing swords against each other in a reptitive fashion will cause them to break obviously. My two points are: 1] That IMO if we put it in a realistic context an energy Saber will cut through a Sword. 2]Master Sword is not magically indestructible. So, from that context from my POV IMO Link would lose.

Actually it is, there's a reason it never rusts, and can with stand attacks that disintegrate stone, and that it can sit exposed to the elements for centuries and remain as sharp as the day it was made, ect, ect.

This is one of the few things Nintendo has directly said, that the power of the blade protects it from damage. I'm well aware that gaming swordfights are beyond unrealistic, I'm a history buff and the forum's resident sword geek. Energy sabers to not exist, a laser is not an energy weapon, it's a beam of focused light.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Actually it is, there's a reason it never rusts, and can with stand attacks that disintegrate stone, and that it can sit exposed to the elements for centuries and remain as sharp as the day it was made, ect, ect.


Just like the Deku shield can take blows from lizardlos metal weapons or the Hylian shield can take unrealistic blows. How does that prove that they are intended to be magical despite not being stated as such and the fact that most weapons in fiction behave the same way?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste

This is one of the few things Nintendo has directly said, that the power of the blade protects it from damage.


When did they state this, post proof please.


Originally posted by ScreamPaste

Energy sabers to not exist, a laser is not an energy weapon, it's a beam of focused light.

A beam of focused light which is categorised as an energy weapon. Also I never said that energy Saber exist, the point was not if it exsit or not. Your not reading what I'm saying cool.

Originally posted by Classic NES
Just like the Deku shield can take blows from lizardlos metal weapons or the Hylian shield can take unrealistic blows. How does that prove that they are intended to be magical despite not being stated and the fact that most weapons in fiction behave the same way?




When did they state this, post proof please.




A beam of focused light which is categorised as an energy weapon. I never said that energy Saber exist, your not reading what I'm saying cool.
Wrong. Outside of gameplay the sword survives such things, the sheild can be burned and obviously doesn't survive the ravages of time.. By the way, wooden sheilds are suprisingly effective against steel weapons.

You're trying to group the sword which is a specific and unique case in with other simple gameplay oddities. The sword is a consistent element in the games and outside of gameplay undergoes stresses which would snap a sky scraper in half, to be conservative, with no damage.

I'll be back with more later.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Wrong. Outside of gameplay the sword survives such things, the sheild can be burned and obviously doesn't survive the ravages of time.. By the way, wooden sheilds are suprisingly effective against steel weapons.

Does it survive those things outside of the plot as well? Because that's the context which I'm arguing from. I've stated it multiple times. I dunno how specific I have to be since your still missing the point and not looking at the bigger picture man? Other than the properties specifically stated to be intrinsically part of said weapons E.G. Evils susceptibility to the Master Sword. I will assume all the other properties are artistic license, since they are not stated by any sources I know. What is stated in red should be given "Miracle exempt" due to what is stated in blue.



Originally posted by ScreamPaste

You're trying to group the sword which is a specific and unique case in with other simple gameplay oddities. The sword is a consistent element in the games and outside of gameplay undergoes stresses which would snap a sky scraper in half, to be conservative, with no damage.



No, I 'm not trying to do anything like that. Infact I stated what I'm trying to do, which is compare them in a given context. The above post and many others I've made are explanations of my methodology to support my opinion.

Originally posted by Classic NES
Does it survive those things outside of the plot as well? Because that's the context which I'm arguing from. I had to comment on this. Let me be the first to ask "..Wut?". Does the sword, specific to the plot of a specific set of games, survive such things outside that plot, and therefore those games? ...Wut?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I had to comment on this. Let me be the first to ask "..Wut?". Does the sword, specific to the plot of a specific set of games, survive such things outside that plot, and therefore those games? ...Wut?

Of course not, it was rhetorical man. Plot alone is a bias position because: 1] It's predetermined 2] It favors one fictional universe over the other. Debating solely with a universes respective plot isn't fair, obviously.

Seeing as the plot is all we have to glean accurate information from, it's only unfair when we say things like "this one is better because the plot says it's the best evar."

In the case of the sword, going by feats, it's atleast recockulously hard to damage, at all, period, to claim zero buster can cut through it simply because it cuts through other non magical substances is a little.. eh.. Well, doesn't make sense going by what we know of both weapons. By canon the sword has been exposed to castle busting force without so much as a scratch, this is not bias against another universe, just fact.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste

In the case of the sword, going by feats, it's atleast recockulously hard to damage, at all, period, to claim zero buster can cut through it simply because it cuts through other non magical substances is a little.. eh..

Magical is an ambiguous term which is open to interpretation, how does it prove that it's specifically resistant as you claim it is?


Originally posted by ScreamPaste

By canon the sword has been exposed to castle busting force without so much as a scratch, this is not bias against another universe, just fact.

Your premise is buried in your conclusion which you repeat via Ad Naseum. Fact is I see it as artistic license, and I already explained why. Do you have any proof that the writer intended for it to be indestructible or is it just a consequence of his writing via artistic license?

All laser beams and such can be blocked by Link's shield (i.e. Beamos)
The Master Sword is indestructable. If it can block Ganondorf's magic, a puny laser sword is no problem. To even suggest such a thing is foolish.

Here's what will happen:
Zero moves in to attack>Link uses Mortal Draw>Zero dies instantly (the move is an instant kill by its nature, not just some fanboy "speedblitz" garbage)

The equipment needed for that move is his sword and that's it. I'd call that standard equipment.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
All laser beams and such can be blocked by Link's shield (i.e. Beamos)
The Master Sword is indestructable. If it can block Ganondorf's magic, a puny laser sword is no problem. To even suggest such a thing is foolish. Okay, this is just ridiculous. The Hylian shield might be able to block Beamos, but that's beside the point, since Zero's standard weaponry does not utilize lasers, but highly focused plasma. Does Ganondorf employ plasma in his arsenal? And, dude, to call the Z-Saber puny is pretty ignorant, considering its history. That's rather like calling the Master Sword a mere butter knife.

As to Mortal Draw, this is a powerful technique, but not one that is a part of Link's standard arsenal. The Hero's Spirit teaches him how to use it.

Now, assuming that Link can somehow block both the Z-Buster, the Z-Saber, and Zero's mobility, how is he going to defend against Zero's Messenko or the Shin Messenko?

Just so we're clear, plasma is essentially just fast moving air, IE, fire. It's effect is the same as a laser, really.


Actually, creating substantial force from nothing? Pretty much, yes. Also, Master sword = win.

by deflecting, and defending, and swording. :P

Originally posted by LLLLLink
All laser beams and such can be blocked by Link's shield (i.e. Beamos)
The Master Sword is indestructable. If it can block Ganondorf's magic, a puny laser sword is no problem. To even suggest such a thing is foolish.

Here's what will happen:
Zero moves in to attack>Link uses Mortal Draw>Zero dies instantly (the move is an instant kill by its nature, not just some fanboy "speedblitz" garbage)

The equipment needed for that move is his sword and that's it. I'd call that standard equipment. though i agree that the master sword is indistructable, that is an unfair statement to prove so, the sword perges evil so if it blocks ganondorf's magic its only because its evil magic.

mortal draw is a single shot kill agains guys in LoZ universe, so how can you say that it would kill zero, zero is vastly more powerful than anything in LoZverse. how could a normal sword get thru zeros armor? or even the master sword? the mastersword has the ability to repel evil and cannot be destroyed, but 1 zero is not evil and 2 zeros armor is thousands of years ahead of anything link has ever seen.

so if zero was just standing there letting link hit him over and over again he might chip it (cuz link is no weakling) but zero wont just stand there his speed and skill and strength would make it impossible for link to hit him/overpower him. im not going to say that this will be an instant kill, link will be able to deffend against a lot of the attacks though link will be struggling the whole fight and zero would simply be fighting him like a normal maveric and zero would kill him in the end

Seriously guys. You are pitting your "vastly superior to anything in the LoZ universe" Zero against a NAKED and ignorant Link and still havent shown anything to beat him yet.

Insinuations like, "Hylian shield cant block plasma" and "Mortal draw wont kill Zero" are statements to which no proof has been provided. Until some proof shows, Im considering the lasers blocked and Zero dead.

Heh, Link can manhandle Zero with his unnatural strength (Goron miniboss fight, anyone?).
As far as armor goes, Link breaks off enemy armor in his sleep (Darknut, Iron knuckle, Argorok, ect.)
Zero's armor is far beyond anything Link has ever seen, eh? How about the Magic Armor which is impervious to attack provided the wearer has rupees to feed the magic. Seems to be the other way around to me.

Actually, Zero's not 'vastly more powerful than anythign in the LoZ universe'. Ganon>Zero, in a very harsh way.

There's nothing to suggest the master sword just turns into a normal sword when used against something that's not evil. The only part of it's power that applies to evil is the repel/destroy function, so it won't insta-kill him, meh. It's still indestructable, and Link is still plenty strong enough to use it to great effect against Zero.

high-tech =/= superior. Something unbreakable swung with enough force at something breakable will break the breakable thing, sir =P

If Zero gets hit, it'll be very damaging and debilitating. What's his best durability feat? If I recall he takes damage from sources a lot less threatening than Link.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Actually, Zero's not 'vastly more powerful than anythign in the LoZ universe'. Ganon>Zero, in a very harsh way.

There's nothing to suggest the master sword just turns into a normal sword when used against something that's not evil. The only part of it's power that applies to evil is the repel/destroy function, so it won't insta-kill him, meh. It's still indestructable, and Link is still plenty strong enough to use it to great effect against Zero.

high-tech =/= superior. Something unbreakable swung with enough force at something breakable will break the breakable thing, sir =P

If Zero gets hit, it'll be very damaging and debilitating. What's his best durability feat? If I recall he takes damage from sources a lot less threatening than Link.

^Win.

The Master sword reflected Zelda's magic in Twilight Princess.

Standard equipment, not standard arsenal. So all the learned techniques are usable. But Mortal draw wouldnt kill Zero. it didnt kill a full armored Darknut.

Ganondorf's injury was caused by the light sword not the master sword.

Sword of Sages, I believe is the proper title for the weapon Ganon stole and wielded against Link.

Originally posted by XanatosForever
Sword of Sages, I believe is the proper title for the weapon Ganon stole and wielded against Link. we're still using twilight princess feats, right?

Zero has more physical strength and better battle speed than link

Originally posted by Phanteros
we're still using twilight princess feats, right?

Well, the thread starter specified that it was Zero vs Link's Twilight Princess incarnation, so yes.

Originally posted by XanatosForever
Well, the thread starter specified that it was Zero vs Link's Twilight Princess incarnation, so yes. just making sure. anyway what will you say about Zero's fighting Speed

I will say Mortal Draw for a straight on attack,
Great Spin for anything else.

Even the lowly shield dudes in Ninja Gaiden can block Ryu's attacks considering his speed. Im just throwing that out there.

Speed>Power, Power>Defense, Defense>Speed
That is a fact of life (on a basic level).

Let's not discount Link casually chopping arrows out of the air in TP, either. Like any of his incarnations his reaction time is clearly superhuman, and I doubt Zero could physicly overpower Ganon, ever.

Lmao, even naked, Link pwns.

There's an image I didn't need, you're fired. x_x

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Seriously guys. You are pitting your "vastly superior to anything in the LoZ universe" Zero against a NAKED and ignorant Link and still havent shown anything to beat him yet.

Insinuations like, "Hylian shield cant block plasma" and "Mortal draw wont kill Zero" are statements to which no proof has been provided. Until some proof shows, Im considering the lasers blocked and Zero dead.

Heh, Link can manhandle Zero with his unnatural strength (Goron miniboss fight, anyone?).
As far as armor goes, Link breaks off enemy armor in his sleep (Darknut, Iron knuckle, Argorok, ect.)
Zero's armor is far beyond anything Link has ever seen, eh? How about the Magic Armor which is impervious to attack provided the wearer has rupees to feed the magic. Seems to be the other way around to me. sorry but i dont have to prove that mortal draw wouldnt kill him, it is up to you to prove that it will, im just saying that (apart from the magic f@#king armor) zeros armor is far more durrable than any other armor in that LoZ verse, i mean link can easily just cut it off....you cant do that to zeros armor so your statement that link breaks off armor is fail their armor has seams that are weak. and zero has done things that is way more impresive than stopping a goron that has absolutely momentum just his raw strength, i think tossing 3 story tall maverics is much much more impressive than that.

also look at the opponents zero has defeted compared to the ones link has (apart from ganon) none of them are as strong or as huge as a lot of the boss' zero has fought. and the Z-saber would most deffinitely cut thru the highrule shield, it cuts through maveric armor....wich is an extremely durrable metal alloy made thousands of years in the futur from our time...yeah the highrule shield would just melt at the sight of it.

...I meant naked as in not having full access to his gear.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Let's not discount Link casually chopping arrows out of the air in TP, either. Like any of his incarnations his reaction time is clearly superhuman, and I doubt Zero could physicly overpower Ganon, ever. you do realize that it wasnt link that was overpowering ganon in TP right? it was whats her face the twilight princes, it was her strength that did it for him, if you try to do it without her he just plows over you, also pitting someone that only link and zelda can beet just isnt fair, of course zero cant beet ganon he doesnt have the mastersword, peice of the tryforce, or light arrows. thats why when i compare things that link has done compared to things that zero has done i ignore most of the ganon fight.

Edit: and also cutting arrows in mid air is not all that impresive, ive seen real people do that.

@Niduin; I reiterate, swinging something unbreakable with enough force against something that is breakable will break the breakable thing, in this case, Zero. And Tossing a maverick vs tossing a Goron is meh, the goron is probably heavier, tbh =P eitherway it's comparable, but given that Link overpowered Ganon, my money is on him. I have yet to math it, though. Zero's been harmed by far weaker foes than Link.

As to this whole argument that Zero's armour and weapons are high tech and therefore omgtoogoodfortheZeldaverse, let's just remind you what happens anytime magic and technology try to override each other, magic wins. Furthermore; Link's equipment's been exposed to 'plasma' many times, and really he doesn't need the sheild for this, imho. The sword will peirce Zero's armour.

Massive fail on the Ganon fight reference, Niduin. Link clearly bears down on his sword and overpowers G-dorf.

Master Sword>Zero armor

Even the "Man of Steel" gets cut by magic swords. The Master Sword will eventually beat Zero, either by Link outswording him or by reflect Zero's own artillery back at him. Zero takes damage from much weaker things than the Master Sword anyway...

In these debates plot device immortality like Ganon's is considered off, and Link still physicly overpowered him in the sword fight, no assistance, kthnx.

I call much bs, sir. A slow moving arrow shot from a weak bow, with no intent to kill or wound anyone, and having someone else practice the exact timing with you to chop it out of the air is not the same thing, it's a cooperative effort using less than realistic conditions. An actual shot with intent to kill is moving very fast.

wow you guys are hypocrits, you say show proof and the last few posts have been, "link will win because he will" kind of posts, and no a goron is not heavyer than a fully armored mech 3 stories tall, a tank weighs roughly 50 tons, and one of those maverics would be at least close to that, you thing that a goron weighs that much?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
In these debates plot device immortality like Ganon's is considered off, and Link still physicly overpowered him in the sword fight, no assistance, kthnx.

I call much bs, sir. A slow moving arrow shot from a weak bow, with no intent to kill or wound anyone, and having someone else practice the exact timing with you to chop it out of the air is not the same thing, it's a cooperative effort using less than realistic conditions. An actual shot with intent to kill is moving very fast. yeah sword fight when he is normal size not the huge ass pig.

yeah its true that they arent the same thing, but who is to say that that person wouldnt do it in real life in those situations, even if they cant its not that much more impresive than what they do. my point was that link (by that feat) is pretty fast but not extraordinarily

So, Link wins then?

Actually, given that gorons are made of stone, and solid, I'm 100% positive the goron is heavier, because he was ****ing huge. OoT Link is strong enough to casually stack tanks on one hand like pie plates, I'll Math the goron's weight later, but I'm betting it's above 100 tons. Also, Ganon in his human form disintegrates beings with single punches.

I understand your arrow point, but like I said, an arrow fired with intent to kill is on a whole different level than a stage arrow. =P

Demi-gods, actually.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Actually, given that gorons are made of stone, and solid, I'm 100% positive the goron is heavier, because he was ****ing huge. OoT Link is strong enough to casually stack tanks on one hand like pie plates, I'll Math the goron's weight later, but I'm betting it's above 100 tons. Also, Ganon in his human form disintegrates beings with single punches.

I understand your arrow point, but like I said, an arrow fired with intent to kill is on a whole different level than a stage arrow. =P no a stone that big would weigh at most a few thousand pounds, and its not like he stopped him easily, btw heavy armor like the armor in tanks is a lot heavyer than just rock.

i say again, yes it is different but not enough to make that much of a difference, if someone can do it in a staged performance that same person with enough practice could do it with an arrow with intent to kill infact im certain that it has been done in some battle somewhere. so saying link can do that is not an inpresive feat as far as defeating a cyborg built for extremely fast combat situations

This is Twilight Princess standard equipment, so Link gets to use Midna and the Triforce of Courage in this fight, right? I mean, they are pretty standard since he had them for the entire game.

no it is stated in the rules tha tyou cant use something like that, something that cannot be beaten, otherwise it is spite

Edit: and as for midna, that is technicaly unfair odds its 2 against one, so i would say no, now if he was just using her like he does in the game as just a tool then i would say yes

ok how big would you say that goron was? id say somehting like 3 feet by 4 feet by 8 feet, so by using

http://www.weldonmat.com/calculators.htm

i come up with 7.111... tons thats a little over 14,ooo lbs, and thats making the goron rectangular not the round form they are so adding some weight to that, and for that fight link was strugling, and according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_(Mega_Man)#Abilities
zero "can lift in excess of several tens of thousands of pounds but the precise maximum capacity is never disclosed" now do you still think link is stronger?

I'll math it myself, you were using some bad numbers somewhere, sir.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2059jxy.jpg
6 ft = 80 pixels

The goron = 228. THEREFORE; 228/80 = 2.85
2.85x6 = 17.1 Ft in diameter.

V= pi*r^3*0.75=4007.9816296875 cubic feet.

so, let's get conservative here.

4000x100 lbs = 400 000 lbs = 200 tons.

Just so we're clear, seeing as he stopped it, then threw it, yes, Link is infact stronger.

Given that the Gorons are probably about as heavy as granite, multiply that by 1.6 to get a more accurate weight. =] I forget where I read they were granite thoguh, so I won't use those numbers until I find the quote.

oh yeah i forgot about that guy, see before you said the mini game goron, and the guy you have is a lot bigger than any normal goron so i wasnt using wrong numbers i was using wrong example.

Even tho i dont think the creaters meant it to be link being that strong i think they meant it to be his boots helping him, ill give it to you link is stronger but not by all that much.

so if link can hit zero he can win, and vis-versa, and i still give it to zero, zero is faster pluss he has his speed boost

The only reason Link needed the boots is because his own weight isn't very much compared to the huge goron, but obviously Link is very strong. "several tens of thousands of pounds" is not close to 200 tons. Link is a lot stronger than Zero.

Start durability discussion.... NOW

i know what the boots do, but what i am saying is that the writers didn't intend on you thinking it was link lifting that weight, i think that the lifting the goron is complete and utter pis if you look at it as link doing it himself, thats why they put the boots there, and dont say that the boots dont give him super strength, you arent supposed to be thinking about it that much thats what i mean by it wasnt intended to be interpreted that way.

several does not mean less than a certain amount, it just means they dont know how high it goes, so it might verry well be near 200 tons tho i doubt it.

Now, even if link is that strong, you have no proof that he is faster than zero or that he has any kind of defence against zeros attacks. plus if link hits zero his likelyhood of surviving is much higher links if hit by zero, since zero is a robot he doesnt bleed, link does.

so IF link is as strong as you say he is, zero is still faster, has more firepower, and much more durrable than link, so he still wins

Link's actually got incredibly high durability, Zero's lucky this is Twlilight Princess Link, though, less in the way of durability feats =[

STILL, he was shot out of a cannon at super sonic speed and collided with the ground unharmed, fought Ganondorf, who canonicly can disintegrate beings with his bare hands, and has generally exposed himself to incredible forces without being killed many times. Also, what's Zero's best speed feat?

Also, in terms of strength vs durability, Link so far looks to be at an advantage, it'll be very easy for him to hurt Zero with his inhuman strength.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Link's actually got incredibly high durability, Zero's lucky this is Twlilight Princess Link, though, less in the way of durability feats = zero took way more from sigma a guy who can blast through metal

Blasting through metal =/= incredibly impressive, we have guns that can puncture metal.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Blasting through metal =/= incredibly impressive, we have guns that can puncture metal. can gannon punch through metal?

As easy as paper.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
As easy as paper. still not enough to scratch zero.

Didn't ScreamPaste say that ganon could Desintegrate people with bare hands? desintegration=better than ripping through metal right?

Originally posted by Anon E. Mous
Didn't ScreamPaste say that ganon could Desintegrate people with bare hands? desintegration=better than ripping through metal right? KORREKT!

I read niduin's post that says the rules state something that is unbeatable cannot be used.

Link cannot be used.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
I read niduin's post that says the rules state something that is unbeatable cannot be used.

Link cannot be used. he is beatable.
i say zero could stop time(doesn't need an item) and cut him from behind

I'm not even sure what Zero you guys are using. I'm betting its probably all the way from X4 to these new fangled DS games, right?

It doesn't matter, Link can't stop time in Twilight Princess anyway. But, he DOES get to use Midna and the Triforce of Courage. They are standard equipment for Twilight Princess as he has them throughout the game. Neither of them are unbeatable. Midna was still torn apart by Ganon even with the four Fused Shadows. The Triforce of Courage is probably the weakest piece of the Triforce. Ganon's grants him godlike power and Zelda's piece is what I say gives her all her magical abilities.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
I'm not even sure what Zero you guys are using. I'm betting its probably all the way from X4 to these new fangled DS games, right?

It doesn't matter, Link can't stop time in Twilight Princess anyway. But, he DOES get to use Midna and the Triforce of Courage. They are standard equipment for Twilight Princess as he has them throughout the game. Neither of them are unbeatable. Midna was still torn apart by Ganon even with the four Fused Shadows. The Triforce of Courage is probably the weakest piece of the Triforce. Ganon's grants him godlike power and Zelda's piece is what I say gives her all her magical abilities. its the old games zero.
no extra help link fights alone

I call BS, but even if Midna is denied, that still leaves the Triforce of Courage.

Oh yeah, what did Zero use to stop time?

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
I call BS, but even if Midna is denied, that still leaves the Triforce of Courage.

Oh yeah, what did Zero use to stop time? himself

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
I call BS, but even if Midna is denied, that still leaves the Triforce of Courage.

Oh yeah, what did Zero use to stop time? midna isn't a thing unless you are considering women are objects

I do not remember Zero stopping time. What game was that?

i forgot

VIDS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. >.<

didn't find the orginal time stop but i did find his great speed run
G7WHtowDdxw

wow that guy was awesome

See, those are those new fangled games. And what does a Speed Run have to do with any of this?

This discussion is full of lulz.

If the writers didn't intend for Link to be made to look as strong as he IS, why is he able to physically overpower GANON of all people when they are sword locked? Or sumo wrestle gorons, or casually toss charging goat things aside or any of his strength feats in TP?

Also Zero didn't stop time in any Megaman X 1-6 game which I have beaten and own all of them... Which one did he do it in, and if he has this incredible power why doesn't he just beat Sigma with it all the time?

I must say that Zero has come back from ridiculous damage before (X5 anyone?) but Zero doesn't really stand a chance against Link in this matchup.

Not that I know what sort of science fiction technology Zero is based on, but I work with computers/electronics everyday and the hardware involved is always a very fragile thing. One small voltage change here or there, one busted capacitor and things go all wrong.

Originally posted by Cyner
This discussion is full of lulz.

If the writers didn't intend for Link to be made to look as strong as he IS, why is he able to physically overpower GANON of all people when they are sword locked? Or sumo wrestle gorons, or casually toss charging goat things aside or any of his strength feats in TP?

Also Zero didn't stop time in any Megaman X 1-6 game which I have beaten and own all of them... Which one did he do it in, and if he has this incredible power why doesn't he just beat Sigma with it all the time?

I must say that Zero has come back from ridiculous damage before (X5 anyone?) but Zero doesn't really stand a chance against Link in this matchup.

Not that I know what sort of science fiction technology Zero is based on, but I work with computers/electronics everyday and the hardware involved is always a very fragile thing. One small voltage change here or there, one busted capacitor and things go all wrong. reploids are not like that. and what are the conditions of him throwing that goron with the gauntlets i presume. zero's saber can change into many things to suit his needs.

No, TP Link never gets any strength enhancing items, Phanteros. He's just naturally that strong. My personal theory is that Nintendo retconned it so that the Triforce of Courage makes him that strong, but why he's that strong is irrelevant, because he is, regardless of why.

Edit; Furthermore, reploids tend to be hindered by missing limbs.

Originally posted by Cyner
This discussion is full of lulz.Yes. Yes it is.

Originally posted by Cyner
If the writers didn't intend for Link to be made to look as strong as he IS, why is he able to physically overpower GANON of all people when they are sword locked? Or sumo wrestle gorons, or casually toss charging goat things aside or any of his strength feats in TP?It seems the Iron Boots are an integral part of Link being able to match the Gorons. Try to get past them without them. It doesn't work so well. I'm not saying that Link isn't superhumanly strong, but he does seem to require the assistance of an item to hang with some of those guys.

Originally posted by Cyner
Also Zero didn't stop time in any Megaman X 1-6 game which I have beaten and own all of them... Which one did he do it in, and if he has this incredible power why doesn't he just beat Sigma with it all the time?If you have all the X games, then you should be well aware that Zero can stop time in X5 with the Dark Hold. You should also be aware that the reason Zero cannot simply brush Sigma aside with a Time Stop is because Sigma invented the Dark Hold. He knows how it works and has made himself immune to its effects.

Originally posted by Cyner
I must say that Zero has come back from ridiculous damage before (X5 anyone?) but Zero doesn't really stand a chance against Link in this matchup.Zero walked away from orbital re-entry and returned from having over half his body blown away. His body has a self-repair system that can heal itself. Has TP Link ever recovered from having the lower half of his body disintegrated? In the Mega Man Zero series, Zero road a nuke to ground zero with Omega as its warhead and walked away from the blast. TP Link ain't touching Zero's durability with his standard equipment.

Originally posted by Cyner
Not that I know what sort of science fiction technology Zero is based on, but I work with computers/electronics everyday and the hardware involved is always a very fragile thing. One small voltage change here or there, one busted capacitor and things go all wrong. Zero's body is complex enough to be constructed from DNA. He can soak damage from lightning and cannot be shut down by EMPs. He bears little resemblance to the technology we have today.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Furthermore, reploids tend to be hindered by missing limbs. Not so much. During "the Day of Sigma: X was missing an arm and still scarred Sigma face. You're not suggesting that Link would be able to function as well if he had an arm or a leg severed by a beam saber, are you?

Now, I have a couple of questions. First, how is Link going to defend against Zero using the Ordon Shield, since it burns when in contact with fire, which is much cooler than Zero's Z-Buster. Is the Hylian Shield being counted as standard equipment? Could it even defend against a Buster blast? What are its durability feats?

Second, how is Link going to defend against Zero's area attacks? In X2 and X5, Zero has showed the ability to use area attacks (Messenko and Shin-Messenko) as a part of his standard abilities. Nothing Link carries can stop an area attack.

Third, Link has displayed some superhuman strength, but I still don't see him on Zero's level physically. Zero can create earthquakes and shockwaves by punching the ground (X2, X5, Xtreme2). He can punch through over four feet of solid steel. He has been stated to be stronger than Mega Man, who has been shown to lift giant robots and entire sections of the Skull Fortress. What has Link done on that level?

Fourth, how is Link going to be able to defend against Zero's Heat Haze techniques (which is one of his standard abilities in X:Command Mission). With it, Zero attacks in a flurry of after images. Every single image does damage. How does Link counter this?

Fifth, how can you compare Link's battle skill with Zero's? Again, Zero has been fighting (and leading teams of Hunters) constantly for over a century by the year 22XX. TP Link has, at best, been honing his combat skills for a decade.

Sorry gents. No matter how you slice it, I just can't see standard TP Link matching up here. He's awesome, no doubt, but he's no god of destruction.

The only reason Link needs the Iron Boots is because he isn't as heavy as a Goron. If I weigh 300 pounds, and you weigh 150 pounds and we're just as strong as each other, I still beat you in a sumo match.

I think the mayor of Ordon even told Link something along the lines of "You're strong enough to match the Gorons, but you need some extra weight." before he gave Link the Iron Boots.

Link won't need the Iron Boots for Zero, unless he happens to weigh as much as a Goron.

Fair enough, but matching a Goron in strength still doesn't convince me that Link can match Zero in strength (or any of the other areas I've mentioned above).

how about throwing a 200+ ton ball? :]

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
how about throwing a 200+ ton ball? :] Yeah, I've seen your numbers. I hope you'll forgive me if I don't put too much stock in them. I'm not criticizing your technique, its just that you're making fundamental assumptions about the composition of the objects in your calculations (the guys at Stardestroyer.net make exactly the same mistake). You are assuming that you know what those objects are made out of and that you know how fast they are traveling. The truth is, its just a guess.

If you insist on going that route, I'd be happy to calculate how much physical strength Zero would need to cause a shockwave capable of vaporizing titanium from a distance of 60 meters just by punching the ground.

Now, what about all this:

This is why I round all my numbers down, so if I err I err on the conservative side. Gorons are stated to be made of stone, they're far from styrofoam.

Link's preternaturally skilled with all weapons, within minutes of getting the bow he can peg an inch thick pole at about a kilometer's distance. Then he proceeds to beat Ganon in a sword fight.


As to Zero disintegrating titaniumvid plx?

Link knows how to dodge. Just throwing that out there for dealing with Buster Blasts.

I want somebody to define for me Standard Zero equipment. It seems kind of BS that Link isn't granted some of hs stuff in this fight and I keep hearing about all these advanced Zero techniques.

All Link needs is his sword. Skill and determination will do the rest.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
All Link needs is his sword. Skill and determination will do the rest. sadly it won't help him against zero

Originally posted by Phanteros
sadly it won't help him against zero

Zero = breakable. The sword = unbreakable. Link = really feckin' strong. Sword+strong+Zero=broken Zero.

I really don't care. A fair fight is what I ask.

So please, somebody define me the standard Zero equipment?

Pretty please with sugar on top? :O

From what I understand it's just the Z saber and Z buster. I don't know whether the buster technicly even qualifies, actually. But anyway, Zsaber vs ancient artifact of untold power? My money's on the one with the title.

Just saying "Zsaber" still gives Zero all of those techniques.

About the whole "Zero stopping time" thing.

It really wont affect Link if he is using the Master Sword in this fight.
The Master Sword is "The Key of Time" and when Link has it he "holds time itself in his hands" - Shiek

How can you lock someone in time when he holds the key of time?

I never answered some points here. And if I may say so, some points need answeringOriginally posted by ScreamPaste
This is why I round all my numbers down, so if I err I err on the conservative side. Gorons are stated to be made of stone...As far as I can tell, they're stated to be "rock-like", which could cover a lot of materials. You also cannot assume that their bodies are completely made from stone (or stone-like materials) in the way that a stone statue would be. Running the numbers on an unknown quantity is still a large assumption, one that conservative estimates cannot account for.

Link is strong, I have no argument there, but I still don't see evidence for him matching Zero in physical strength. I'll give Zero's strength feats again if you wish.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Link's preternaturally skilled with all weapons, within minutes of getting the bow he can peg an inch thick pole at about a kilometer's distance. Then he proceeds to beat Ganon in a sword fight. Is this preternatural skill an officially stated fact? It sounds like conjecture. As for Ganon, has he been constantly fighting for centuries at the time of TP? Zero has fought constantly and commanded Hunter Units for centuries.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
As to Zero disintegrating titaniumvid plx?As you are probably aware, titanium is equal or stronger to low-grade steel alloys. Regardless, the use of titanium as an example for Zero was actually a mistake on my part. He's destroyed Titanium-X armor (stronger than titanium by a significant, but undisclosed amount) as well as other armored robots of equal or better durability.

As for the videos, the "Let's Play Mega Man X" series on youtube will have demonstrations of all of Zero's techniques and feats. Finding and posting them would take more time than I'm willing to give, however, I will point out exactly where you can find the feats in question:

Maverick Hunter X: Zero's first use of the Shin Messenko: At the end of Vile's game, Vile battles X and Zero. Zero uses his signature area attack for the first time during this battle.

Mega Man X2: Just before the final boss of the game, Zero uses the Messenko, destroys everything in the room, and later punches through four+ feet of solid metal with a single blow.

Mega Man X5: After the 8 Maverick stages and prior to the final stage, X and Zero have a confrontation. Zero again uses the Shin Messenko, sending shockwaves up from the floor with a single punch.

Those are the visuals. Now, Zero has officially been stated to be physically superior to Mega Man, who has himself lifted giant robots and a sizable section of Dr. Wily's fortress.

Now, can you point me to the general location of videos that might show off Link's strength?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Zero = breakable. The sword = unbreakable. Link = really feckin' strong. Sword+strong+Zero=broken Zero. And Link = breakable too. More breakable than Zero. What is Link's best durability feat? Zero has ridden a nuclear missile with Omega as its warhead to ground zero and walked away from the blast. He's also walked away from two orbital re-entries sans functional ships. Explosions that would vaporize humans do not even phase him (first boss cutscene of Mega Man Zero).

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
I really don't care. A fair fight is what I ask.

So please, somebody define me the standard Zero equipment?

Pretty please with sugar on top? :O I can tell you the techniques Zero has used without any upgrades. The thread-starter might have something different in mind, however:

Zero has used:

The Z-Saber
Z-Buster
Messenko
Shin Messenko
Heat Haze
Enkoukyaku
Soul Body

I wonder if the thread starter might define Zero and Link's arsenal for this fight? After all, the Master Sword isn't exactly Link's first sword in TP, yet several folks have made the assumption that he has it in this fight.

They said standard, the sword is practicly part of Link, people will assume he has it in any debate because of that, they're hard to seperate in anyone's mental image of Link.

Besides, you want him to fight a robot with a mundane sword? -.O;

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
They said standard, the sword is practicly part of Link, people will assume he has it in any debate because of that, they're hard to seperate in anyone's mental image of Link.

Besides, you want him to fight a robot with a mundane sword? -.O; Nah, to deprive Link of the Master Sword would make this more uneven than it already is. I just wanted an official ruling on what was being considered standard.

Uneven? Psh, the only thing hindering Link is the fact that the OP hasn't stated what's standard :P
If Link gets more than a sword this could get very fun to debate. I stand by unbreakable sword>robots.

If we agree that the Links have consistent physical attributes I can also prove he has supersonic reaction time. :]

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Uneven? Psh, the only thing hindering Link is the fact that the OP hasn't stated what's standard :P
If Link gets more than a sword this could get very fun to debate. I stand by unbreakable sword>robots.

If we agree that the Links have consistent physical attributes I can also prove he has supersonic reaction time. :] If you insist, I'll bring up Zero's consistent use of near C reflexes.

Oh, and Z-Saber/Buster/Shin Messeno >> fleshy Link.

Fleshy Link >> Incredibly damaging attacks.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Fleshy Link >> Incredibly damaging attacks.
SAIZ U

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
SAIZ U I have to agree. Link's body isn't going to match Zero's in durability. And I've already made my case as to why Zero is physically stronger.

Really, the only thing Link has going for him here is the Master Sword and that isn't enough without the durability for when Zero gets inside/behind Link's defenses or hits him with an area attack.

I'm still waiting on an official source stating that TP Link innately has hundreds of years worth of battle experience to equal Zero's. Making a bullseye and defeating Ganon is impressive, but doesn't give Link the rep to overwhelm Zero's resume.

Originally posted by Acrosurge
I have to agree. Link's body isn't going to match Zero's in durability. And I've already made my case as to why Zero is physically stronger.

Really, the only thing Link has going for him here is the Master Sword and that isn't enough without the durability for when Zero gets inside/behind Link's defenses or hits him with an area attack.

I'm still waiting on an official source stating that TP Link innately has hundreds of years worth of battle experience to equal Zero's. Making a bullseye and defeating Ganon is impressive, but doesn't give Link the rep to overwhelm Zero's resume.

Link can break Zero, and last I checked the who is stronger debate was stalemated at best. Zero throws tanks, which are a quarter the weight of the Goron Link threw.

Link has that durability, we already covered that both Link and his stuff can take 'plasma' attacks, and has been fired at the ground from a sky-city at supersonic speed without injury. He's stopped a 200 ton object in motion without getting crushed or otherwise taking damage, then reversed it's momentum entirely. He can take physical abuse from Ganon, which, essentially, is 'nuff said.

And Zero getting inside his defenses? Zero's best bet is to stay away, the author doesn't seem to have given Link any ranged weapons. If he gets close he risks dismemberment, which I don't care if he can survive it, he loses once he's out an arm, cause the next one's going shortly thereafter.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Link can break Zero, and last I checked the who is stronger debate was stalemated at best. Zero throws tanks, which are a quarter the weight of the Goron Link threw.Tanks? Zero's predecessor has moved giant, armored robots that dwarf TP's goron in size (X Crusher: MM6, SuperMechasaurus). He has lifted a portion of Skull Fortress from its foundation (a portion that surpasses the entire screen above and on either side). Zero has officially been stated to be stronger than this.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Link has that durability, we already covered that both Link and his stuff can take 'plasma' attacksWhen did we cover this? Link is hurt by fire. Plasma > Fire. Z-Buster > Plasma. And when has Link ridden a nuclear missile to its detonation and walked away? Zero > Link in invulnerability.


Originally posted by ScreamPaste
and has been fired at the ground from a sky-city at supersonic speed without injury.Special conditions? Proof that the speed was supersonic? Can you direct me to a video or the portion of TP that this comes from?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
He's stopped a 200 ton object in motion without getting crushed or otherwise taking damage, then reversed it's momentum entirely. He can take physical abuse from Ganon, which, essentially, is 'nuff said.I'd like to see the "200 ton object" example for myself. It sounds impressive. Can you point me to the part of TP in which this is featured? Still, even if the object was 200 tons, this is still less than what Zero's predecessor has lifted.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
And Zero getting inside his defenses? Zero's best bet is to stay away, the author doesn't seem to have given Link any ranged weapons. If he gets close he risks dismemberment, which I don't care if he can survive it, he loses once he's out an arm, cause the next one's going shortly thereafter. How does Zero get dismembered? He is many decades more skilled than Link (Zero has fought for centuries), more durable, and faster. If for some reason Link block's a saber strike, Zero's Heat Haze duplicates will still get through.

And you still have given me no answer for Zero's Shin Messenko area attack. No offense, my friend, but we are not at a stalemate. You just seem to be ignoring most of my evidence.

Link can get behind his sheild, problem solved.

The more skilled thing is pure speculation on your part, as is the faster.
Durable maybe, the strength debate is at a stalemate, and I showed you the 200 ton object already.

If Link hits Zero, Zero's taking damage, and probably losing very shortly therafter. his best bet is to stay away.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Link can get behind his sheild, problem solved.Shin Messenko is an area attack. Unless the shield covers Link's whole body, it isn't going to protect him.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The more skilled thing is pure speculation on your part, as is the faster. Zero being more skilled as pure speculation? Zero has been fighting opponents constantly for centuries. This is officially stated. Can you provide an official statement that TP Link is that skilled?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Durable maybe, the strength debate is at a stalemate, and I showed you the 200 ton object already.Humor me. Can you point me toward official footage of the 200 ton object? As I recall, your image was pretty pixelated. Regardless, Skull Fortress >> 200 ton object. We have an official statement saying Zero is stronger. That doesn't seem like much of a stalemate.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
If Link hits Zero, Zero's taking damage, and probably losing very shortly therafter.Shortly thereafter? The Master Sword isn't an instant kill and it doesn't exactly have a stellar record against heavy armor, let alone the kind that can withstand nuclear missile explosions and drops from orbit. Heck, Darkhammer's armor turns the Master Sword aside. What makes you think a single strike would put Zero out of commission?

A sheild will deflect the attack around him, all he has to do is point the sheild at it's center.


You're confusing doing somethign for a long time with mastering something, which while it takes a long time to do, usually, doesn't happen just because you happen to spend a long time on it. So he did it for a long time, to claim he's more skilled than Link is speculation. Link can pick up any weapon and master it, a sword? It's nothing but an extension of him which he uses to deliver his wrath. :P


Youtube, type in "goron miniboss".

Throwing>Lifting, and it should be obvious that Link is a lot stronger than that feat shows, as he overpowers Ganondorf later on in the game.


Gameplay. If the enemies couldn't defend themselves there'd be no variety and the combat would be ridiculously easy, part of the fun in fighting big badass enemies is that they're badass. Ganon wore armour and the sword didn't seem to notice that, because Ganon defended himself with his sword, he was designed to play differently.

My logic is that Link's strength behind an unbreakable object striking a breakable object will break the breakable object, especially considering the expression of PSI under that kind of force is much greater than Zero's armour has shown that it can take. One shot won't take Zero out, unless Link gets his head, but it's a lot harder to fight with one of your limbs gone/out of order, and the next hits will come very soon thereafter.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
A sheild will deflect the attack around him, all he has to do is point the sheild at it's center.The attack generates enormous energy from multiple directions at once. It has no real center. How can the shield deflect incoming energy from multiple directions at once?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You're confusing doing somethign for a long time with mastering something, which while it takes a long time to do, usually, doesn't happen just because you happen to spend a long time on it. So he did it for a long time, to claim he's more skilled than Link is speculation. Link can pick up any weapon and master it, a sword? It's nothing but an extension of him which he uses to deliver his wrath. :PI'm sorry, my friend, but this is rubbish. The longer you use a skill, the better that skill becomes. Zero has been developing his fighting skills for centuries. This is officially stated. Now, where is your official statement that Link can master any weapon by picking it up and that this translates into Link automatically mastering all forms of fighting across the board?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Youtube, type in "goron miniboss".Thanks. You're awesome! *watches video* Okay, so is this supposed to be the 200 ton object that Link halted and threw? No offense, but even if Dangoro was made from solid granite, he wouldn't weigh 200 tons. Not even close. I might buy 15 to 20 tons, which is a great strength feat for Link, but not 200 tons.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Gameplay. If the enemies couldn't defend themselves there'd be no variety and the combat would be ridiculously easy, part of the fun in fighting big badass enemies is that they're badass. Ganon wore armour and the sword didn't seem to notice that, because Ganon defended himself with his sword, he was designed to play differently.Be careful, because it looks like you're accepting gameplay mechanics when it serves your position and discarding them when they don't fit.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
My logic is that Link's strength behind an unbreakable object striking a breakable object will break the breakable object, especially considering the expression of PSI under that kind of force is much greater than Zero's armour has shown that it can take. One shot won't take Zero out, unless Link gets his head, but it's a lot harder to fight with one of your limbs gone/out of order, and the next hits will come very soon thereafter.And with that logic, you're assuming that Zero's armor will not turn the blade as did the armor worn by Darkhammer, Argorok, Armogohma and others. Are all those instances game mechanics too?

All this, and you're assuming that Zero is too slow to counter or evade a sword stroke? Again, no offense, but that is an awful lot of assumptions.

This match really isnt worth all the effort that is going into it in my opinion...

Originally posted by LLLLLink
This match really isnt worth all the effort that is going into it in my opinion... Its been quite educational for me. I've done research on all kinds of characters and materials that I would not otherwise have known about. Win.

I think you saw the wrong fight, the one on the magnetic disk floating in lava against the massive Goron in plate armour?

I mathed it in this thread, looks can be deceiving, but you can check my work for yourself.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I think you saw the wrong fight, the one on the magnetic disk floating in lava against the massive Goron in plate armour?

I mathed it in this thread, looks can be deceiving, but you can check my work for yourself. That's the one I saw: Link vs Dangora on an island floating in lava. While standing, Dangora was no taller than 20 feet, and that's being extremely generous. When he rolls up, he's less than 12 feet in diameter, using Link as the measure. (the angle of your pic put Dangora closer to the camera, giving him a false perspective of increased size in relation to Link).

Sorry, but the process for your math was also wrong. I've pointed this out before, but you assumed that Dangora was made from granite (one of the heavier types of stone) even though there is no official statements to back this up, nor are there any statements made to reveal a goron's density. Not only that, but you are assuming that goron's are basically solid stone through and through. Big assumption, considering they move and breath and eat. Your 200 ton figure is therefore a guess based on some pretty glaring assumptions.

Link is strong, that much is obvious, but at best I'd put him at the 10-20 ton class, to borrow comic book terminology.

gorons dont necessarily breathe. one was trapped in stone underwater in twilight princess.

Originally posted by SuperLuigi
gorons dont necessarily breathe. one was trapped in stone underwater in twilight princess. True, but they do move, eat, and speak, which suggests that not all of their internal components are of equal density.

Am I being too picky and detailed for a VG vs thread? Probably, but it is necessary when someone makes an appeal to mathematics. If you want to appeal to mathematics, then you must accurately consider every detail in your calculations.

For the record, Gorons in TP never feel the urge to breathe while underwater.

Really, it's pointless.
Zero is just like any other char. Hit him about 10 times and he goes down. I would translate that as every time that Link would strike him, Zero would continue to lose power until he is out. Also, Zero loses energy by merely touching an enemy whether it attacks or not, bringing up some resiliancy issues.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
For the record, Gorons in TP never feel the urge to breathe while underwater.

Really, it's pointless.
Zero is just like any other char. Hit him about 10 times and he goes down. I would translate that as every time that Link would strike him, Zero would continue to lose power until he is out. Also, Zero loses energy by merely touching an enemy whether it attacks or not, bringing up some resiliancy issues. wow you used game mechanics

and you sound like link can hit him

Originally posted by Acrosurge
That's the one I saw: Link vs Dangora on an island floating in lava. While standing, Dangora was no taller than 20 feet, and that's being extremely generous. When he rolls up, he's less than 12 feet in diameter, using Link as the measure. (the angle of your pic put Dangora closer to the camera, giving him a false perspective of increased size in relation to Link).

Sorry, but the process for your math was also wrong. I've pointed this out before, but you assumed that Dangora was made from granite (one of the heavier types of stone) even though there is no official statements to back this up, nor are there any statements made to reveal a goron's density. Not only that, but you are assuming that goron's are basically solid stone through and through. Big assumption, considering they move and breath and eat. Your 200 ton figure is therefore a guess based on some pretty glaring assumptions.

Link is strong, that much is obvious, but at best I'd put him at the 10-20 ton class, to borrow comic book terminology.

Actually, the picture is of when they're close to each other with the Goron a little farther away, math doesn't lie.

And no, I didn't math granite, even light granite is 60% heavier than the numbers I used.


Goron's are stated to be solid rock, they eat rocks, as well.

10-20 ton class is spittign in Link's face.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Actually, the picture is of when they're close to each other with the Goron a little farther away, math doesn't lie.

And no, I didn't math granite, even light granite is 60% heavier than the numbers I used.


Goron's are stated to be solid rock, they eat rocks, as well.

10-20 ton class is spittign in Link's face. Proof they are this heavy.

Originally posted by Phanteros
Proof they are this heavy. Co-signed. Sorry, ScreamPaste, but your math isn't going to cut it unless your variables (density, size) are accurate.

And class 10 to 20 strength seems about right for Link. How is that an insult? He's as strong or stronger than Spider-Man, for heaven's sake!

Game mechanics? It is what it is. We all can discern whether its PIS or not.

Aside from the Goron, Link is able to overpower the man who holds the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf.
We are talking about a guy whose full power is unknown. A guy who, in his most weakened state, was able to bring down a giant castle with merely a breathe.

It's insulting to the character because it's a gross underestimation. Link by feats is MUCH stronger than that, how it 'seems' to you doesn't matter when canon fact clearly disagrees with you.

Goron's are made of stone, this is a canon fact. The math I used is about right for something lacking the density of a rock like granite, but not quite as light as sadnstone, and given that gorons eat rocks, that is very generous of me as apparently their jaws/teeth can crunch rubies, as stated in OoT.

Link threw a Goron which must have weighed atleast 200 tons like a ragdoll, and you're claiming in the face of these facts and math, that 10-20 'seems right' to you?

Wrong. You're disqualified, fail math class, may never own a Zelda game, and must turn in your penis, and leave the internet.

Originally posted by Acrosurge
Sorry, ScreamPaste, but your math isn't going to cut it unless your variables (composition, density, size) are accurate.You guessed the variables, my friend. They were not given by the canon. Therefore your 200 ton figure is not fact.

My 200 figure is the lowest outcome reasonable, actually. :P The variables can ONLY be bigger, so your assumption my numbers are wrong only helps Link.

Also, the variables weren't guessed, they were rounded down to the minimal possible to prevent overhyping.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
My 200 figure is the lowest outcome reasonable, actually. :P The variables can ONLY be bigger, so your assumption my numbers are wrong only helps Link.

Also, the variables weren't guessed, they were rounded down to the minimal possible to prevent overhyping. You estimated the size of the goron. That's assumption one. You estimated the composition of the goron. That's assumption two. You estimated the density of the goron. That's assumption three. Rounding your numbers is not going to correct those assumptions.

We can agree to disagree here, ScreamPaste, but that's about it. Again, you cannot claim an appeal to math when the variables are unknown.

I'll add this, if your case for Link is built upon the presupposition that he MUST have 200 ton strength, then you should honestly reconsider your position.

No, the diamater of the Goron has been measured, then rounded down. The composition of the Goron is rock, that's fact. Rock has high density, also fact.

I have math based on facts, facts which I rounded down to the minimal. You have 'what seems right'. Looks logicly like the facts favour me, because if I was wrong, the number is bigger. If I'm right, it's still atleast 200 tons.

what can you say to debunk the evidence I have other than "you don't know the variables". Guess what, I already accounted for that by useing numbers smaller than could possibly occupy the actual variable's position. So...? Looks to me like 10-20 is spitting in the character's face, he's clearly much stronger than thar.

Okay, so you remain adamant about this methodology for Link's strength. Would you have any problem with me applying it to Zero, with the same assumptions regarding composition applied to Mega Man feats?

Give me a screenshot and I can math it.

Sidenote. It doesn't work the same way on mechs and the like, which are often much lighter than their size would otherwise indicate because when you're designing something to move, it's often best to build it light, IE, a steel tank, even though steel is heavier than rock, weighs less than a rock of equivelant size because the tank is mostly hollow. The same applies to buildings which have rooms, ect.

I can math it, but the variables involved are.. well a lot more variable. :P

I would say that your appraoch on the math is outstanding, Screampaste. If you're right, you're right. If you're wrong, that's even better. Nice work.

I'd pay Shin to do my taxes. Well, as long as he doesn't round down or something. >.<

Only big business gets to round down taxes.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Give me a screenshot and I can math it.Back. Thanks for the offer, however I'd like to do the math myself. I welcome you to check my work, however.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Sidenote. It doesn't work the same way on mechs and the like, which are often much lighter than their size would otherwise indicate because when you're designing something to move, it's often best to build it light, IE, a steel tank, even though steel is heavier than rock, weighs less than a rock of equivelant size because the tank is mostly hollow. The same applies to buildings which have rooms, ect.So, why aren't you applying those same variables to Gorons? Gorons move and they have spaces inside (mouths, inner ear holes, presumably stomachs or spaces for rupees to be digested)? Why have you been assuming that they are solid rock inside when you've put forth no proof that this is so? :P

Screenshots and math coming.

Originally posted by Acrosurge
Back. Thanks for the offer, however I'd like to do the math myself. I welcome you to check my work, however.

So, why aren't you applying those same variables to Gorons? Gorons move and they have spaces inside (mouths, presumably stomachs or spaces for rupees to be digested)? Why have you been assuming that they are solid rock inside when you've put forth no proof that this is so? :P

Screenshots and math coming.

This is why I take a chunk out of the goron's assumed density and don't add weight for his plate armour. :P

P.S. I really wish they'd let me use OoT Link with his gauntlets, now THAT is power.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is why I take a chunk out of the goron's assumed density and don't add weight for his plate armour. :P

P.S. I really wish they'd let me use OoT Link with his gauntlets, now THAT is power. I agree. OoT Link's strength with the gauntlets is literally nothing short of Herculean.

Impressive, I approve of your methodology. I will double check your math soon, but I have to leave skool right now.

I wish there were a way to quantify Ganon's strength, as TP Link sword locks with him. :[

zero has been stated to be stronger than this but has he ever done anything on this scale?

also megaman is only holding up part of the structure. they are clearly to separate objects.

Originally posted by SuperLuigi
zero has been stated to be stronger than this but has he ever done anything on this scale? Zero has created earthquakes and shockwaves strong enough to shatter armor by punching the ground. He's torn through armor with his bare hands and punched through 10 feet of solid metal (yes, many feet beyond the length of his arm). I'll be working on the strength/force necessary to accomplish this next.

Originally posted by SuperLuigi
also megaman is only holding up part of the structure. they are clearly to separate objects. If you look at the structure of that portion of the level, you will see that it comes down at once. Before:

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q145/Acrosurge/Mega%20Man%20Rock/Before.jpg

After:

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q145/Acrosurge/Mega%20Man%20Rock/After-1.jpg

What seperation are you talking about?

difference between the height of the ground were mega stands and wiley lays and the height labeled 13 pixels.the part that megaman is holding reaches the ground before the other half. the second half would continue until it reached the bottom proving they are separate.

Originally posted by SuperLuigi
difference between the height of the ground were mega stands and wiley lays and the height labeled 13 pixels.the part that megaman is holding reaches the ground before the other half. the second half would continue until it reached the bottom proving they are separate. I'm not sure what your point is, since Rock is clearly holding up everything, separated or not.

Originally posted by SuperLuigi
difference between the height of the ground were mega stands and wiley lays and the height labeled 13 pixels.the part that megaman is holding reaches the ground before the other half. the second half would continue until it reached the bottom proving they are separate.

*Wily.