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All Out.

Maul and Ventress, for sure.

ANH Obi Wan takes Maul

Ventress takes Luke

Obi Wan takes Ventress

Don't make me laugh.


Don't make me laugh.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Don't make me laugh.


Don't make me laugh.

ROTS Obi Wan could probably take Maul, and ANH Obi Wan is probably slightly weaker in sabers but more powerful in the force, and the common stereotype here is that Maul sucks in force, so assuming that that's true Ben wins.

So is CW Obi Wan > ANH Obi Wan?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
ROTS Obi Wan could probably take Maul, and ANH Obi Wan is probably slightly weaker in sabers but more powerful in the force, and the common stereotype here is that Maul sucks in force, so assuming that that's true Ben wins.

So is CW Obi Wan > ANH Obi Wan? Without resorting to how you feel on the issue, direct us to a source that says ANH Obi-Wan is more powerful than his RoTS self.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Without resorting to how you feel on the issue, direct us to a source that says ANH Obi-Wan is more powerful than his RoTS self.

People improve over time. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but ANH Obi Wan is 57, which isn't too old given that 54 year old Mace was stronger than his 41 (or somewhere around that) year old TPM version. He might be a tad weaker given that he's a little bit out of practice (but he still probably trained; what else is there to do?) but do force powers depend on physical strength? No, so logically he'd improve over time.

And Luke might be able to take Ventress...

I think sum1 quoted that Obi says hes become more powerful since ROTS. From ANH revised novel maybe..

I think Luke should at least be a match for Ventress though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think sum1 quoted that Obi says hes become more powerful since ROTS. From ANH revised novel maybe..

I think Luke should at least be a match for Ventress though.

Where is this stated? And what makes you think that Luke can take her on?

Both those statements support my "Crack is bad" campaign. Please, take the time to know where your kids are and what they're doing.

Originally posted by The Ground
Where is this stated? And what makes you think that Luke can take her on?

Both those statements support my "Crack is bad" campaign. Please, take the time to know where your kids are and what they're doing.
Well besides the fact that Luke managed to overcome Vader...

Originally posted by The Ground
Where is this stated? And what makes you think that Luke can take her on?

Both those statements support my "Crack is bad" campaign. Please, take the time to know where your kids are and what they're doing.


I said "i think" so stop going on about crack. If I remember correct it was darthsith19 who quoted Obi1 had grown more powerful since ROTS and he quoted it from ANH novel I THINK!

As for Luke taking Ventress. Well id like to think a Jedi Knight with the Second highest potential of ALL Star Wars charcters who overcame Vader in a Saber fight(by giving into darkside, but still its VADER) should be able to take out Ventress

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I said "i think" so stop going on about crack. If I remember correct it was darthsith19 who quoted Obi1 had grown more powerful since ROTS and he quoted it from ANH novel I THINK!

As for Luke taking Ventress. Well id like to think a Jedi Knight with the Second highest potential of ALL Star Wars charcters who overcame Vader in a Saber fight(by giving into darkside, but still its VADER) should be able to take out Ventress

No canon here. Maul and Ventress have both demonstrated lightsaber skill and speed, and ANH Obi-Wan only defeated A'sharad Hett. Since we know little about how fast and strong he was, you cannot say that he has grown even more powerful. Maul would gut Kenobi and would proceed to help Ventress. As for Luke, I can't quite say if he could kill her, he does have the advantage, but I am sure that she can hold her own until Maul comes.

Ventress would pimp-slap Luke. Chick took on 4 or 5 jedi knights at once and beat them down. She guts him and goes to help take out Kenobi, whose defensive style won't allow him to beat Maul any time soon. (if at all)

Edit: plus even Sidious was impressed by Ventress' lightsaber abilities. "The child's skills with a lightsaber are most impressive. You have found a promising disciple, my apprentice. She shall serve us well."

DP, what you're basing your argument on is that Vader > Ventress. Proof?

Which is BS, because Luke never beat Vader, he was holding back instead of killing his son.

Originally posted by The Ground
No canon here. Maul and Ventress have both demonstrated lightsaber skill and speed, and ANH Obi-Wan only defeated A'sharad Hett.

I believe Obiwan was fought Hett a lot closer to ROTS then ANH.

Strictly speaking: Obi-Wan did not do ANYTHING do demonstrate his power in ANH. That duel is the only canon I can think of.

Obi-Wan's abilities within lightsaber combat have severely deteriorated from the point of RotS to ANH, naturally; there is no indication that his combat-oriented skills in force expanded, either. With the exception of the immortality technique (if you want to call it that way), no superior abilities in the force were witnessed: he was out of touch and out of shape, as he did not train for a very long time and lacked sufficient power and skill in the force to make up for that fact. Aside from the way he was busy training Qui-Gon's spirit, I think (I'm not sure) that he did not actively train because that would inevitably reveal the existence of a powerful force user upon Tatooine, and thus attract the attention of the Empire to him, and, more importantly, to Luke. Mace was only a 'bit' younger, but he was both more skilled in the force and had the luxury of being able to train freely; he was in top shape while Obi-Wan was most definitely not.

During their duel, Obi-Wan and Vader were rather evenly matched, with maybe a slight advantage in Vader's favor. Both of them were not in their prime, lightsaber-wise, with inferior physical condition and capacity for speed: on the other hand, Maul is a beast, tremendously fast and powerful. During the duel of the Maul clone and Vader, Maul displayed superior speed to him: that would insinuate that he is also faster than Obi-Wan, probably by a very considerable amount (If X is faster than Y, and Y is faster than Z, then X is faster than Z). Maul also has tremendous technical skill that easily surpasses the untrained and rusty Obi-Wan's, and has the ability to simply physically bully Obi-Wan into submission.

His skills in Teras Kasi are perhaps the finest in the saga, and could be used as a supplement to his other skills in order to physically dominate and, essentially, brutalize Obi-Wan. The old man wouldn't know what hit him. To summarize it, he's facing an opponent who is faster, stronger, more technically proficient, and has considerable skill in unarmed combat. He gets raped.

Luke gets owned by Ventress. 'Nuff said.

Originally posted by The Ground
DP, what you're basing your argument on is that Vader > Ventress. Proof?

Which is BS, because Luke never beat Vader, he was holding back instead of killing his son.

So waht you think Ventress is a match for Vader now?? You do chat crapdnt you?!

Theres no proof Vader was significantly holding back during his duel with Luke.. All we know is He wasnt going "All Out" whilst Luke was giving into his rage..

Since there people who say Obi Wan powers did not advance by ANH from ROTS what proof do we have of that? We certainly know that Vader was more powerful in the force than Anakin. Why didn't Vader simply use the force to kill Obi Wan if Obi Wan powers had deteriorated as much as some are insinuating.

He use it on Luke in ESB but in ROTJ he did not use in on Luke at all.

Vader probably wanted to outduel Obi1 for personal reasons..

and he didnt use the Force on Luke in ROTJ, because that wuldnt acheive anything.. He was trying to turn him, not show off how easily he can own him with the force.

I agree with master crimzon about Maul taking the old man quite comftorbly. Maul was a beast end of the day. But im not convinced Ventress takes Luke.

His training was complete, according to Yoda & Vader. Thats 2 in universe characters confirming that. So he must have had some skill, and obviously has a lot of raw power.

I can agree with the logic behind Vader lost to Luke but we have no written proof of Vader being able to kill Luke with force. The point I am making is that we Luke finally went all out on Vader, Vader with all his mastery and power could not stop Luke from defeating him.

Personally I don't see Ventress ever being able to do that to Vader.

This is the Vader that used the force to destroy an AT-ST.

I feel like Im repeating myself in different threads but in the "Courtship of Princess Leia," when Luke is being blasted by FL by a nightsister he says (in almost these exact words) "so this is what it would've been like if Vader had tried to kill him on the death star, who had Luke been kidding he's no jedi....." This further adds proof to the case that Vader could've killed Luke had he used the force.

Even though Vader couldn't lightning. And Palpatine has stronger lightning(?)

ToMAYto-ToMAHto.

I prefer the former.

Originally posted by The Ground
Even though Vader couldn't lightning. And Palpatine has stronger lightning(?)

It's not the matter of the lightning itself, but that his opponent wasn't playing games with him. The first half of their duel in ROTJ, it is clear vader wasnt trying to kill him. Then Luke ran and next went into a berserk rage that Vader couldnt defend against and I believe the novel notes that he was caught off guard by Luke's ferocity. (I'll get back to you on that later) Then it was pretty obvious that Palpatine intended for Luke to die a slow and painful death not a quick one which he was certainly capable of doing.

Point taken. Though getting through to DP is nearly impossible.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Obi-Wan's abilities within lightsaber combat have severely deteriorated from the point of RotS to ANH, naturally; there is no indication that his combat-oriented skills in force expanded, either. With the exception of the immortality technique (if you want to call it that way), no superior abilities in the force were witnessed: he was out of touch and out of shape, as he did not train for a very long time and lacked sufficient power and skill in the force to make up for that fact. Aside from the way he was busy training Qui-Gon's spirit, I think (I'm not sure) that he did not actively train because that would inevitably reveal the existence of a powerful force user upon Tatooine, and thus attract the attention of the Empire to him, and, more importantly, to Luke. Mace was only a 'bit' younger, but he was both more skilled in the force and had the luxury of being able to train freely; he was in top shape while Obi-Wan was most definitely not.

During their duel, Obi-Wan and Vader were rather evenly matched, with maybe a slight advantage in Vader's favor. Both of them were not in their prime, lightsaber-wise, with inferior physical condition and capacity for speed: on the other hand, Maul is a beast, tremendously fast and powerful. During the duel of the Maul clone and Vader, Maul displayed superior speed to him: that would insinuate that he is also faster than Obi-Wan, probably by a very considerable amount (If X is faster than Y, and Y is faster than Z, then X is faster than Z). Maul also has tremendous technical skill that easily surpasses the untrained and rusty Obi-Wan's, and has the ability to simply physically bully Obi-Wan into submission.

His skills in Teras Kasi are perhaps the finest in the saga, and could be used as a supplement to his other skills in order to physically dominate and, essentially, brutalize Obi-Wan. The old man wouldn't know what hit him. To summarize it, he's facing an opponent who is faster, stronger, more technically proficient, and has considerable skill in unarmed combat. He gets raped.

Luke gets owned by Ventress. 'Nuff said.

isn't that ABC logic? even though I agree...




I knew you would say that.. mind explaining? it appears everywhere. and only u say it. xD


dude ventress isn't a chick...

1. she's bald. no chick is hot without hair..
2. I have palpatine syndrome, and I say only humans are hot.. lol

that was what I was thinking... Ventress/Maul wins

Originally posted by kotorfan
isn't that ABC logic? even though I agree...




I knew you would say that.. mind explaining? it appears everywhere. and only u say it. xD


dude ventress isn't a chick...

1. she's bald. no chick is hot without hair..
2. I have palpatine syndrome, and I say only humans are hot.. lol

that was what I was thinking... Ventress/Maul wins

Nobody said she was hot, only that she was, in fact, female.

Dude, Ventress is HOT. I'd tap that.

Originally posted by The Ground
Point taken. Though getting through to DP is nearly impossible.

whats it got to do with me you moron? i said on the last page Vader could destroy luke with the Force

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I feel like Im repeating myself in different threads but in the "Courtship of Princess Leia," when Luke is being blasted by FL by a nightsister he says (in almost these exact words) "so this is what it would've been like if Vader had tried to kill him on the death star, who had Luke been kidding he's no jedi....." This further adds proof to the case that Vader could've killed Luke had he used the force.

It seems that way Elite because you are not reading what people are saying. Without going into the same argument with you again, here are the points you seem to constantly ignore, in the movie Vader and Yoda stated that Luke needed no more training denoting that Luke had obtain a certain level. Yoda stated only if he killed Vader would he be a Jedi.

Two, even though Luke was using aggression he only went all out on Vader at the very end. In the quotes from the novel that you provided in another thread it shows that the thought passed Vader head that his son might defeat him.

Three, no one disagrees that Vader was trying to turn Luke to the dark side. No one is stating Luke was more powerful than Vader as of ROTJ or that Vader could not have killed Luke. The point is when Luke did lose control Vader who was a master Sith Lord could not handle it. With all of Vader skill and power he was not able to stop Luke. Luke was not as weak as you and some others portray him to be. Point is Ventress could not do the same to Vader under the same circumstances.

Lastly stating that Vader someone 80% of Sidious could kill Luke with the force does not make Luke weak. You can write a list or names of people in Star Wars history that would die if Vader used the force on them.

Originally posted by Kotor3
It seems that way Elite because you are not reading what people are saying. Without going into the same argument with you again, here are the points you seem to constantly ignore, in the movie Vader and Yoda stated that Luke needed no more training denoting that Luke had obtain a certain level. Yoda stated only if he killed Vader would he be a Jedi.

Two, even though Luke was using aggression he only went all out on Vader at the very end. In the quotes from the novel that you provided in another thread it shows that the thought passed Vader head that his son might defeat him.

Three, no one disagrees that Vader was trying to turn Luke to the dark side. No one is stating Luke was more powerful than Vader as of ROTJ or that Vader could not have killed Luke. The point is when Luke did lose control Vader who was a master Sith Lord could not handle it. With all of Vader skill and power he was not able to stop Luke. Luke was not as weak as you and some others portray him to be. Point is Ventress could not do the same to Vader under the same circumstances.

Lastly stating that Vader someone 80% of Sidious could kill Luke with the force does not make Luke weak. You can write a list or names of people in Star Wars history that would die if Vader used the force on them. You do take in to consideration that, aside from turning away from the Dark Side (a very Jedi like move---props to Luke for that), Movie-Luke has shown no other feat or ability that puts him at the rank of even a PT Padawan? SO---it is quite possible that when Yoda says "no more training do you require", that he was speaking of Luke's mentality (demonstrated when he turned away from Palpatine) and not his combat prowess?

I mean lol... what kind of a dick would Yoda be, sending Luke to take out the man who outmatched him, and with only like a month of professional training?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Vader and Yoda stated that Luke needed no more training denoting that Luke had obtain a certain level. Yoda stated only if he killed Vader would he be a Jedi.


All Luke did was cut off Vader's arm, so I guess he really isn't a jedi yet.... And Vader's thoughts did make it obvious that he felt that Luke needed more training before he could face the emperor.



Might and will are two totally different things, especially when one opponent is a HUGE advantage that he chose to not use, and I'm still going to find the ending of the duel so i cant get a better understanding of Vader's mind state before he lost his hand.


No, because Ventress has no way of getting that same "DS boost" as Luke did nor does she have the raw power as Luke. But she still would beat him because she is quicker, more experience, would have no issue using the force on him, and she uses two lightsabers or she could connect to them to create a DBL, both are two forms that Luke isn't familiar with and would be a HUGE disadvantage for him in saber combat.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Movie-Luke has shown no other feat or ability that puts him at the rank of even a PT Padawan?

Yeah because every PT padawan was able to Force Choke 2 Gammorean guards simultaneously with a simple hand jesture, mastered jedi mind tricks, quick enough to take out Boba Fett and powerful enough to destroy Jabba the Hutts whole gang..

Just because PT era have better choreography and special effects doesnt mean you can use that against OT characters. Besides Luke vs. Vader was much more impressive than Mace vs. Sidious.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
and she uses two lightsabers or she could connect to them to create a DBL, both are two forms that Luke isn't familiar with and would be a HUGE disadvantage for him in saber combat.

Thats a good point.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
All Luke did was cut off Vader's arm, so I guess he really isn't a jedi yet.... And Vader's thoughts did make it obvious that he felt that Luke needed more training before he could face the emperor.



Might and will are two totally different things, especially when one opponent is a HUGE advantage that he chose to not use, and I'm still going to find the ending of the duel so i cant get a better understanding of Vader's mind state before he lost his hand.


No, because Ventress has no way of getting that same "DS boost" as Luke did nor does she have the raw power as Luke. But she still would beat him because she is quicker, more experience, would have no issue using the force on him, and she uses two lightsabers or she could connect to them to create a DBL, both are two forms that Luke isn't familiar with and would be a HUGE disadvantage for him in saber combat.

You make good points Elite. You could be right but I am still with Luke for a win against Ventress. Ventress did all the things you mention to an Anakin that was not near the power level he was in ROTS during there first fight. She was still overpowered. No skill by Anakin he simply overpowered her using the force. I would say Luke could do the same. To bad we don't have more info on Luke's abilities as of ROTJ.

So what? If he kills Ventress it's going to be him against Maul, and that point is impossible to argue.

Originally posted by The Ground
So what? If he kills Ventress it's going to be him against Maul, and that point is impossible to argue.

Impossible! Why? Maul is going mess up and say something about Leia and Luke is going to go berserk on him. Luke Wins!

How didn't we see it!!herbha-son2

Originally posted by Kotor3
Impossible! Why? Maul is going mess up and say something about Leia and Luke is going to go berserk on him. Luke Wins!

Maul would feed off Luke's rage just like he did off Obi1's. Must be a metaphysical ability he has.

Thats a lot of sabers.
Luke kills ventress kenobi kills maul.
So there you go

But after she fled doukoo Ventress joined the nighsisters. A group of dark female jedi. They where shorlty killed of by luke

I'm interested in the story of "duokoo". Is it in an upcoming comic?