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Alright here is the premise for the fight: it takes place in New York and the team mission is to neutralize Flash before he can get to them. Since there's no way they can not defeat him because of his speed they get to prepare for his attack. They can set traps all over the city but bombs, gun traps, falling and captureing traps. Now the bombs can't be too big somewhere between 5 and 60 pounds of explosives just enough to kill him or stop him. Now they have to stay immobile so to give them a better chance of winning but if they get caught they lose. The team gets 12 hours to set as many traps as they can.

Punisher- http://www.marvel.com/universe/Punisher

Nick Fury- http://www.marvel.com/universe/Fury%2C_Nick

&

Kraven- http://www.marvel.com/universe/Kraven

In my opinion, Wally will be defeated by the team, this is Nick Fury and the Punisher were using here, preparation for these guys are like giving Batman his belt.

Wally average villains like Rogue's aren't comparable to this team...

Explosions and traps will be triggered in ultra slow-mo as far as wally is concerend. Unless it's some sort of PIS Anti-Wally device they just happened to have stored in S.h.i.e.l.d hq. Team Lose.

Originally posted by vansonbee
In my opinion, Wally will be defeated by the team, this is Nick Fury and the Punisher were using here, preparation for these guys are like giving Batman his belt.

Wally average villains like Rogue's aren't comparable to this team... What seriously? Wally's average villains have insane tech and they use traps of all kinds and they still can't beat him. Besides the military edge i don't see how this team can be compared to the technological genius' The Flash Rogues usually have

Lol.

Wally 10/10 easy. Wally with his perception won't be taken down by a bomb. The explosions will be extremely useless.

Throw in the fact that he can run while vibrating the entire time, his durability etc. and this is thread is over before it even started.

Originally posted by iceman24567
What seriously? Wally's average villains have insane tech and they use traps of all kinds and they still can't beat him. Besides the military edge i don't see how this team can be compared to the technological genius' The Flash Rogues usually have

Sheild tech is good but this aint nothing a non-jobbing wally can't get out of. This is wally competent wally of KMC.

Then again if Punisher and kraven are willing to use human decoys and wally tries to save them im confident sheild might be able to cook something up. But if it's just Wally avoiding traps and crap like that then Flash ftw!

Punisher has actually shot a speedster before without prep.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher has actually shot a speedster before without prep. Marvel has other speedster other then QS?

Wally 10/10.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher has actually shot a speedster before without prep.

Wally West > Every other Speedster I can think off

Originally posted by vansonbee
Marvel has other speedster other then QS?

It was a mutant called Burnout.



Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Wally West > Every other Speedster I can think off

Yeah but Wally doesnt aways travel at top speed, and pun has prep. It was pretty impressive considering Pun had never met the speedster before.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Lol.

Wally 10/10 easy. Wally with his perception won't be taken down by a bomb. The explosions will be extremely useless.

Throw in the fact that he can run while vibrating the entire time, his durability etc. and this is thread is over before it even started.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
It was a mutant called Burnout.





Yeah but Wally doesnt aways travel at top speed, and pun has prep. It was pretty impressive considering Pun had never met the speedster before.

who was it?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah but Wally doesnt aways travel at top speed, and pun has prep. It was pretty impressive considering Pun had never met the speedster before.

That doesn't truly matter. His perception is always on based on what I've read. Some writers just tend to outright ignore it.

It's constantly on. He should see everything as if it is paused unless he wills is consciously from what I recall.

Hell, it even activates automatically when he is danger, even though he consciously turns if off.

He doesn't have to travel at top speed. Based on his powers, Wally can be walking down the street normally, and Punisher can snipe him from behind but Wally should still easily evade the bullet. It's happened before.

no Explosion will hit Wally. He will travel around the world 3 times before it even starts exploding.

The fight will probably last 0.1 seconds if wally wants it to.

Originally posted by Raoul




who was it?

Ermm did you ask me who it was? I said in my previous post it was a mutant called Burnout.




Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That doesn't truly matter. His perception is always on based on what I've read. Some writers just tend to outright ignore it.

It's constantly on. He should see everything as if it is paused unless he wills is consciously from what I recall.

Hell, it even activates automatically when he is danger, even though he consciously turns if off.

He doesn't have to travel at top speed. Based on his powers, Wally can be walking down the street normally, and Punisher can snipe him from behind but Wally should still easily evade the bullet. It's happened before.

I know its constantly on, but his perception changes when he goes to lightspeed.

I dont think that Punisher can shoot Flash like he did Burnout but he could do it with prep, lots of people have. He is vulnerable when he doesnt expect to get shot.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I know its constantly on, but his perception changes when he goes to lightspeed.

He constantly sees things at a stand still. Like a DVD.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_flash207_pyrate_p17.jpg

Even while going at speeds faster than light, he still views the world the way he wants to.

Hence why at speeds faster than light, he can move through a crowd of over half a million people, who are mostly shoulder to shoulder, and scan each, and every single face for a smile while avoiding so much as brushing any of them.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dont think that Punisher can shoot Flash like he did Burnout but he could do it with prep, lots of people have. He is vulnerable when he doesnt expect to get shot.

Obviously he can't as Flash is the Flash and Burnout is Burnout. On completely different levels.

Do it with prep?

Well, with his perception turned on, nothing should be able to catch him by surprise, not even a bullet from behind the head. Hell, even when he turns it off, it has still activated automatically in the past when he was in danger.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Speedvisionauto1.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Speedvisionauto2.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Speedvisionauto3.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Speedvisionauto4.jpg

Even when the Spectre erased his memories, the moment he got in serious danger, his perception turned on. It's just how he views the way, unless he turns it off.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Timefreeze1.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Timefreeze2.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Timefreeze3.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Timefreeze4.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Timefreeze5.jpg

In this scenario, they are placing bombs by the way, and not taking shots at unaware Flash.

Dunno if this would actually work, but if I was the team, I'd actually use Flash's speed against him. Like using oil on surfaces, sticky nets in areas with tight corners and dark corridors (so he'll get caught as he turns) or invisible, razor sharp tripwires.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Dunno if this would actually work, but if I was the team, I'd actually use Flash's speed against him. Like using oil on surfaces, sticky nets in areas with tight corners and dark corridors (so he'll get caught as he turns) or invisible, razor sharp tripwires.

That would work if we ignore the fact, that Flash's perception would mean he would be able to easily avoid all of that. Even if it was directly around the corner. If we ignore the fact that Flash has run in space, so running on oiled surfaces is no problem, and we ignore the fact that Wally West can just vibrate while running, ignoring all of it.

Wally to easy

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He constantly sees things at a stand still. Like a DVD.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_flash207_pyrate_p17.jpg

Even while going at speeds faster than light, he still views the world the way he wants to.

Hence why at speeds faster than light, he can move through a crowd of over half a million people, who are mostly shoulder to shoulder, and scan each, and every single face for a smile while avoiding so much as brushing any of them.



Obviously he can't as Flash is the Flash and Burnout is Burnout. On completely different levels.

Do it with prep?

Well, with his perception turned on, nothing should be able to catch him by surprise, not even a bullet from behind the head. Hell, even when he turns it off, it has still activated automatically in the past when he was in danger.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Speedvisionauto1.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Speedvisionauto2.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Speedvisionauto3.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Speedvisionauto4.jpg

Even when the Spectre erased his memories, the moment he got in serious danger, his perception turned on. It's just how he views the way, unless he turns it off.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Timefreeze1.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Timefreeze2.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Timefreeze3.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Timefreeze4.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Flash/th_Timefreeze5.jpg

In this scenario, they are placing bombs by the way, and not taking shots at unaware Flash.


There are lots of showings from JLA that contradict that. It just means The Flash isnt consistent.

your face isn't consistent

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
There are lots of showings from JLA that contradict that. It just means The Flash isnt consistent.

Those showings are PIS. We all know if Wally was written as he is, he would solo mostly anything.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Those showings are PIS. We all know if Wally was written as he is, he would solo mostly anything.

Those showings arent PIS if there are lots of them. It means hes inconsistent.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Those showings arent PIS if there are lots of them. It means hes inconsistent.

It's not inconsistency. Just writers ignoring his power set, and having him holding back a majority of his power to fit the plot. It happens to a lot of different characters, but when you have a power house like Wally West, it should happen even more so, in a team book like the Justice League.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It's not inconsistency. Just writers ignoring his power set, and having him holding back a majority of his power to fit the plot. It happens to a lot of different characters, but when you have a power house like Wally West, it should happen even more so, in a team book like the Justice League.

No its inconsistency it fits the defintion of what inconsistency is. Characters are never protrayed consistently you dont just decide its PIS because one showing isnt the same as the other.

In fact if hes that fast then he should never get hit and every single issue of Flash and JLA has PIS in it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No its inconsistency it fits the defintion of what inconsistency is. Characters are never protrayed consistently you dont just decide its PIS because one showing isnt the same as the other.

His been able to do this for a long time though, and it's always active. It's been shown to be always active unless he wills out.

It's in his power set. If a writer obviously ignores it to fit the plot then I consider it PIS.

Call it inconsistency if you like, but I call it PIS.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
His been able to do this for a long time though, and it's always active. It's been shown to be always active unless he wills out.


and the opposite of that statement is true as well.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

It's in his power set. If a writer obviously ignores it to fit the plot then I consider it PIS.

Call it inconsistency if you like, but I call it PIS.

How do you decide whats in his powerset?

Flash is written consistently... In his own book, which is the defacto standard we judge Wally by.

Wally wins an obvious spite thread.

Closed.

reopened... for gits and shiggles...

Team books downplay characters by huge margins (unless your name is Superman). I mean Green Lantern could handle most of what is thrown at the JLA, but they dont because its a team book. Same thing happens with the Flash. In his own book he pwns the JLA version of himself.

Besides, what Deathstroke can do, they cant (not that Deathstroke should have done it either). Deathstroke > these three. To put it simply, if these three where in a dark room, and someone simply flicked a switch, could they react/defend before the light hit them? Even in this scenario, Wally has gone intangible, and has a super healing factor. They cant touch him.

Wally wins.

wow

Flash easy win

What I want to know is why do solo books take priority over team books?

Originally posted by Blair Wind


Besides, what Deathstroke can do, they cant (not that Deathstroke should have done it either). Deathstroke > these three.


Im sorry but thats complete nonsense. For starters NW has made him look like a chump twice. Batgirl has at least one good showing against DS, im prettty sure these 3 could beat Batgirl. Batman has one good showing against him and another which had cirumstances. Hell Punisher stalemated a character that could arguably stalemate or beat DS in h2h. Damn you wanna just make assumptions like that?

These 3 > DS.

Originally posted by Raoul
Flash is written consistently... In his own book Not really. Maybe better than how is portrayed in JLA etc but hardly consistent.

At least comparing to his last 10 years of spike in power and abilities

Originally posted by kgkg
Not really. Maybe better than how is portrayed in JLA etc but hardly consistent.

At least comparing to his last 10 years of spike in power and abilities

johns wrote him for a good 40 issues pretty consistently...

Roaul you still havent given a logical reason why solo books take precedence over team books. Stating that they have more weight without stating why they have more weight is not proof.

NW fought DS long before he fought Ras and it seems he was less skilled then because he got owned by Shiva, going by that NW was significantly less skilled.

We maybe talking about prep but according to you DS didnt have any prep and still beat Flash.

In terms of h2h and prep DS isnt better than those 3 either way its still double standards.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Roaul you still havent given a logical reason why solo books take precedence over team books. Stating that they have more weight without stating why they have more weight is not proof.

i did state why. several times.



because he got owned by shiva he's suddenly weak? you do know who shiva is, right?



he prepped for flash.



in your opinion. you originated the claim. its up to you to prove it.

My intention was not to make a spite thread. I wanted to take three people with great preparation ability to set up traps and try and stop somebody who is the team superior in a straight up fight.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and the opposite of that statement is true as well.

If a writer ignores something to fit a plot, it wouldn't apply here on the vs. boards, as we use all of a character's abilities, meaning it doesn't really matter.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
How do you decide whats in his powerset?

It's always been in his power set, for a long time. Writers just ignore it, and tone him down in comics such as Justice League of America, significantly just like they do to other characters, but to an even bigger degree as the Flash is such a power house.

Originally posted by Raoul
i did state why. several times.

Not really. You said they were more consistent and they job less. In JLA they are consistently lower and as stated before in JLA hes wriiten to be less powerful thats the writers intpretation of his capabilities. So really you're just stating that JLA is jobbing and stating that you're opinion of what Flash is capable of takes precedent, its purely subjective.


Originally posted by Raoul

because he got owned by shiva he's suddenly weak? you do know who shiva is, right?


You missed the point hes not as good as Batman not even nearly if hes gets totally owned by Shiva.

Originally posted by Raoul

he prepped for flash.

Thats not what you said last time. Last time you said he couldnt have possibly known Flash was going to turn up....wow. Either way it doesnt matter because hes not as good as those 3 combined at prep.

Originally posted by Raoul

in your opinion. you originated the claim. its up to you to prove it.

Well for starters Punisher on his own has stalemated an opponet whos capable of beating DS in h2h. Hes not beating Punisher, Kraven and Nick at the sametime.

*sigh* Think im wasting my time trying to talk about Punishers prep skills but i'll try again both Dr Doom and Captain America have stated how resourecful the Punisher is. If props from two of marvels top strategist doesnt mean anything I dont know what does. Punisher would give DS a hard time with prep add Nick Fury and Kraven and its all over.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus



It's always been in his power set, for a long time. Writers just ignore it, and tone him down in comics such as Justice League of America, significantly just like they do to other characters, but to an even bigger degree as the Flash is such a power house.

JLA has shown on numerous ocassions it isnt, its there interpretation and its just as valid as his solo issues.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

JLA has shown on numerous ocassions it isnt, its there interpretation and its just as valid as his solo issues.

Did you miss the part where the writer is obviously toning down the Flash and ignoring his abilities to suit the plot?

If not we wouldn't be having this conversation. They are valid, if you consider using issues were he is obviously being downplayed.

In these forums, we use characters at their optimum and don't use a writer's influence.

Hence, this doesn't really matter. We are taking into account all of his abilities and not only the abilities the writer picks and chooses to fit his plot.

You, I, and everyone else knows how badly a character gets toned down in team books. Especially one such as Flash.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Did you miss the part where the writer is obviously toning down the Flash and ignoring his abilities to suit the plot?

If not we wouldn't be having this conversation. They are valid, if you consider using issues were he is obviously being downplayed.

In these forums, we use characters at their optimum and don't use a writer's influence.

Hence, this doesn't really matter. We are taking into account all of his abilities and not only the abilities the writer picks and chooses to fit his plot.

You, I, and everyone else knows how badly a character gets toned down in team books. Especially one such as Flash.

and im telling you again for the 100th time thats their interpretation of Flashs skills. As I stated earlier on it could damn well be argued that under JLA he doesnt view the world the same as he does in his solo issues when hes not running at top speed.

Hell even Flash 1M got punked. Hell Punisher got his arse kicked by DD in Marvel Knights I could damn well argue that he jobbed and its PIS but the fact of the matter is different writers think characters are capable of different things.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and im telling you again for the 100th time thats their interpretation of Flashs skills. As I stated earlier on it could damn well be argued that under JLA he doesnt view the world the same as he does in his solo issues when hes not running at top speed.

Hell even Flash 1M got punked. Hell Punisher got his arse kicked by DD in Marvel Knights I could damn well argue that he jobbed and its PIS but the fact of the matter is different writers think characters are capable of different things.

Flash 1 million is just a future Flash. Wally West can do things that Flash can't.

It has been shown in his own books, on different occasions, by different writers, that Flash views the world in that way all the time unless he turns it off consciously.

The fact that writers in Justice League books ignore it and tone him down is no surprise. It happens to a lot of characters unless you're Superman or Batman.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Flash 1 million is just a future Flash. Wally West can do things that Flash can't.

Every single member of JLA 1M was superior to the 21st century counteparts, its unlikley that Flash 1m is inferior.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

It has been shown in his own books, on different occasions, by different writers, that Flash views the world in that way all the time unless he turns it off consciously.

The fact that writers in Justice League books ignore it and tone him down is no surprise. It happens to a lot of characters unless you're Superman or Batman.

Again eventhough Punsiher doesnt have powers when he under performs in certain stories I could argue he jobbed or its PIS as well or I could accept that the writers interpretation of his capabilities varies.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Every single member of JLA 1M was superior to the 21st century counteparts, its unlikley that Flash 1m is inferior.

Dude, Wally West has encountered the Flash 1million before, and has shown to be his clear superior as I recall.

Wally West > Johny Fox

It might be unlikely to you, but that's the case. Wally West can do what he can't, and is superior from what I recall.

The Justice League Alpha members might all be superior to their Justice League of America members, but that's not the case with the Flash.

Wally West is the fastest man who ever lived for a reason.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again eventhough Punsiher doesnt have powers when he under performs in certain stories I could argue he jobbed or its PIS as well or I could accept that the writers interpretation of his capabilities varies.

facepalm

In the case of the Flash, the writer is obviously toning him down.

How are you even debating this with a straight face?

It's obvious that Wally is under performing in the Justice League books compared to his solo series. It has more to do with writers ignoring his power set for the sake of plot, more than anything.

That's a faulty analogy.

Well Flash 1m must be the exception but he got punked just the same as his current counterpart has.


Take it or leave it



Originally posted by Phantom Zone


Again eventhough Punsiher doesnt have powers when he under performs in certain stories I could argue he jobbed or its PIS as well or I could accept that the writers interpretation of his capabilities varies.

All you keep telling me is that you THINK that Flash's solo apearances SHOULD take priority because...because its your opinion that all.

I could also make the argument that Pun was toned down in Pun vs DD in the fact that Pun was onwed by DD twice with prep. The same principle applies.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well Flash 1m must be the exception but he got punked just the same as his current counterpart has.

Wally West, is already the God of Speed. If he had a counterpart in Justice League Alpha, who was more powerful than him, as Kal Kent is to that times Superman etc., that character would be a God.

It's inconceivable to make someone that fast. That's how powerful Wally West is.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Take it or leave it

Take what?

You're faulty analogy?

I rather leave it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
All you keep telling me is that you THINK that Flash's solo apearances SHOULD take priority because...because its your opinion that all.

Christ. Can anyone else explain it to this guy?

His solo appearance should take priority as it is more consistent, and his power levels don't jump up and down every issue to fit the plot as it does sometimes in the Justice League books.

Everyone else, except you it seems realize that a character is underwritten in a team book most of the time.

You quoted by yourself by the way.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Wally West, is already the God of Speed. If he had a counterpart in Justice League Alpha, who was more powerful than him, as Kal Kent is to that times Superman etc., that character would be a God.

It's inconceivable to make someone that fast. That's how powerful Wally West is.

and both those Flashes have been punked.



Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Take what?

You're faulty analogy?

I rather leave it.

Its not a faulty analogy, you just cant take it that your opinion is just that...an opinion. When you come out with stuff like you quoted yourself when you cant even understand that was my intention, maybe you have comprehension problems.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Christ. Can anyone else explain it to this guy?

His solo appearance should take priority as it is more consistent, and his power levels don't jump up and down every issue to fit the plot as it does sometimes in the Justice League books.

LOL it damn well could be argued that in his solo books hes powerd up to fit with the plot as well, but theres still no reason why his solo books should take priority. We dont just take high showings we look at all the showings.

JLA is consistent as well his feats are just lower.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Everyone else, except you it seems realize that a character is underwritten in a team book most of the time.

and in Pun vs DD Pun was underwritten because he lost to DD twice with prep. Under certain writers Pun would decimate DD with prep and in others he doesnt. Which one takes precedence? They are legitimate interpretations of his capabilities but in general he would beat DD with prep ( because there are more showings to prove it). It could also damn well be argued he was written down to fit with the plot as well.

The same principle applies stop pretending like it doesnt just because you want me to agree with you.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and both those Flashes have been punked.

So have a lot of characters when they shouldn't have been.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Its not a faulty analogy, you just cant take it that your opinion is just that...an opinion. When you come out with stuff like you quoted yourself when you cant even understand that was my intention, maybe you have comprehension problems.

Yes it is. I responded to you're post as you were referring to the analogy with the Punisher. I understand you're intention. I just thought you quoted it my mistake.

*Shrugs*

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL it damn well could be argued that in his solo books hes powerd up to fit with the plot as well, but theres still no reason why his solo books should take priority. We dont just take high showings we look at all the showings.

JLA is consistent as well his feats are just lower.

We do look at all his showings but when we compare them it's obvious when in one showing he is obviously powered down and his powers are ignored.

Like I said before. According to these boards rules, we use all of their abilities. We don't pick in choose which powers not to use.

Meaning we use all of his powers unlike some comics where they are ignored.

So either way this conversation doesn't really matter and I'm done with it.

According to the rules, we use all their powers, including his perception, and all of his other capabilities, and don't ignore some just because writers ignore them to fit a plot from time to time.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and in Pun vs DD Pun was underwritten because he lost to DD twice with prep. Under certain writers Pun would decimate DD with prep and in others he doesnt. Which one takes precedence? They are legitimate interpretations of his capabilities but in general he would beat DD with prep ( because there are more showings to prove it). It could also damn well be argued he was written down to fit with the plot as well.

The same principle applies stop pretending like it doesnt just because you want me to agree with you.

If Frank Castle was obviously underwritten in the comic, to support the plot, then we take the showings and compare it to the majority of his showings and if you come to the conclusion that he was being underwritten, then you can call it PIS or just say he was underwritten. Either way on these boards, we use them at their top capabilities so it doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Not really. You said they were more consistent and they job less. In JLA they are consistently lower and as stated before in JLA hes wriiten to be less powerful thats the writers intpretation of his capabilities. So really you're just stating that JLA is jobbing and stating that you're opinion of what Flash is capable of takes precedent, its purely subjective.




You missed the point hes not as good as Batman not even nearly if hes gets totally owned by Shiva.



Thats not what you said last time. Last time you said he couldnt have possibly known Flash was going to turn up....wow. Either way it doesnt matter because hes not as good as those 3 combined at prep.



Well for starters Punisher on his own has stalemated an opponet whos capable of beating DS in h2h. Hes not beating Punisher, Kraven and Nick at the sametime.

*sigh* Think im wasting my time trying to talk about Punishers prep skills but i'll try again both Dr Doom and Captain America have stated how resourecful the Punisher is. If props from two of marvels top strategist doesnt mean anything I dont know what does. Punisher would give DS a hard time with prep add Nick Fury and Kraven and its all over.



JLA has shown on numerous ocassions it isnt, its there interpretation and its just as valid as his solo issues.

good god. you're like cartman. you just hear exactly what you want to hear.

Nick Fury wins

That is all, now proceed back to your little topic.

Juggernaut loses.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Juggernaut loses. Kris Blaze loses uhuh

Originally posted by Newjak
Kris Blaze loses uhuh

Try your best Newjackshit ahah

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Try your best Newjackshit ahah If you're gonna add shit unto the end of my name at least spell it right biscuits

With 12 hours these guys have the time to plain a strategy with their weapons. They could set up fishing line for a clothesline, mines or just traps all over the city.

Originally posted by Newjak
If you're gonna add shit unto the end of my name at least spell it right biscuits

You bastard.....

Originally posted by golem370
Alright here is the premise for the fight: it takes place in New York and the team mission is to neutralize Flash before he can get to them. Since there's no way they can not defeat him because of his speed they get to prepare for his attack. They can set traps all over the city but bombs, gun traps, falling and captureing traps. Now the bombs can't be too big somewhere between 5 and 60 pounds of explosives just enough to kill him or stop him. Now they have to stay immobile so to give them a better chance of winning but if they get caught they lose. The team gets 12 hours to set as many traps as they can.

Punisher- http://www.marvel.com/universe/Punisher

Nick Fury- http://www.marvel.com/universe/Fury%2C_Nick

&

Kraven- http://www.marvel.com/universe/Kraven The team fails using boms ONLY works if you have the reaction speed like Slade has to keep up with Flash in the first seconds and can roughly predict where he is going to be nobody on this team has those reflexes.

Flash could end it in 5 seconds literally if he goes in halfassed . 01.seconds if he is serious.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher has actually shot a speedster before without prep. A Speedster like flash a LIGHTSPEEDER ?.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So have a lot of characters when they shouldn't have been.



Yes it is. I responded to you're post as you were referring to the analogy with the Punisher. I understand you're intention. I just thought you quoted it my mistake.

*Shrugs*



We do look at all his showings but when we compare them it's obvious when in one showing he is obviously powered down and his powers are ignored.

Like I said before. According to these boards rules, we use all of their abilities. We don't pick in choose which powers not to use.

Meaning we use all of his powers unlike some comics where they are ignored.

So either way this conversation doesn't really matter and I'm done with it.

According to the rules, we use all their powers, including his perception, and all of his other capabilities, and don't ignore some just because writers ignore them to fit a plot from time to time.



If Frank Castle was obviously underwritten in the comic, to support the plot, then we take the showings and compare it to the majority of his showings and if you come to the conclusion that he was being underwritten, then you can call it PIS or just say he was underwritten. Either way on these boards, we use them at their top capabilities so it doesn't matter.

To cut a long story short. Im not picking and choosing anything. Im not ignoring the fact that he sees the world like DVD, im just pointing out he doesnt always do that. You are just looking at the high end feats and choosing to ignore the lower ones.



Originally posted by Raoul
good god. you're like cartman. you just hear exactly what you want to hear.

Look stop trying to twist things around like im the one with a problem here. I cant remembr exactly what you said about DS and the JLA but you didnt think that DS beating Flash PIS, you self serving hypocritical so and so. At least other posters are consistent.

Cant be arsed to get into the rest but apparently I need to prove that Nick, Punisher and Kraven are better at prep than DS.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
To cut a long story short. Im not picking and choosing anything. Im not ignoring the fact that he sees the world like DVD, im just pointing out he doesnt always do that. You are just looking at the high end feats and choosing to ignore the lower ones.

But that's the problem. He has shown that he always views the world that way. Every moment unless he consciously chooses to turn it off.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
But that's the problem. He has shown that he always views the world that way. Every moment unless he consciously chooses to turn it off.

You dont think that the loads of times he gets punked in JLA implies that he doesnt?

Hence why I said that the writers ignored his abilities and toned him down for the sake of plot.

Wally has shown on different occasions, it's always on by different writers, during different periods of time etc.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hence why I said that the writers ignored his abilities and toned him down for the sake of plot.

That can work both ways. I could argue that a characters could be amped for the sake of the plot, why would I only take the high showings?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Wally has shown on different occasions, it's always on by different writers, during different periods of time etc.

Obvoulsy he views the world slower in JLA and im pretty sure he still has those capabilties even in JLA but certain writers think that he can still get punked if he least expects it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
That can work both ways. I could argue that a characters could be amped for the sake of the plot, why would I only take the high showings?

Obvoulsy he views the world slower in JLA and im pretty sure he still has those capabilties even in JLA but certain writers think that he can still get punked if he least expects it.


So you're going to ignore the fact that he has had this ability from decades ago, and it has been shown consistently in his own comics to an extent yet when it comes to the Justice League comics, it's obvious writers tone him down and ignore some of his abilities to fit the plot?

What is wrong with you?

I think at this point you're debating for no other reason than just debating it self.

He still has the ability, writers just ignore it.

Do you not know that in team books strong characters get toned down all the time?

How can you be debating something that is so obvious?

I will say this for the last time and I am done with this argument as you just don't get it.

According to these boards rules, we use characters and all of their give abilities. We don't pick and choose like the writers do.

So it's really rather pointless, and this is just a waste of my time.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So you're going to ignore the fact that he has had this ability from decades ago,

Again for the 100th time im not ignoring it im stating that he shown differently in different comics.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

and it has been shown consistently in his own comics to an extent yet when it comes to the Justice League comics, it's obvious writers tone him down and ignore some of his abilities to fit the plot?

What is wrong with you?

1. Hes been consistently shown to be weaker.
2. I also stated that characters can be amped for the sake of a plot. Please now explain to me why we should take amped examples for the sake of the plot and ignore the weaker examples.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

He still has the ability, writers just ignore it.

Thats one way of looking at it. Wolverine has enhanced hearing but he gets jumped all the time. As far as im concerned its tough luck that heis enhanced hearing gets overlooked because its been shown 100s of times he can get jumped and sneaked up on when distracted.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Do you not know that in team books strong characters get toned down all the time?

How can you be debating something that is so obvious?

In solo books they get amped for the sake of the plot why do we only go for the solo books?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

I will say this for the last time and I am done with this argument as you just don't get it.

I dont agree with you.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

According to these boards rules, we use characters and all of their give abilities. We don't pick and choose like the writers do.

So it's really rather pointless, and this is just a waste of my time.

You are contradicting yourself. If you are choosing to ignore JLA then you are obvoulsy ignoring that representation of his abilities.

Wow, 4 pages of debate, that must mean people are actually arguing a full capacity Wally West will be incapable of dodging guns, bombs, trap mechanisms and energy projectiles. I guess running around the world in a panel isn't the feat it used to be.

meh!

Originally posted by Juk3n
Wow, 4 pages of debate, that must mean people are actually arguing a full capacity Wally West will be incapable of dodging guns, bombs, trap mechanisms and energy projectiles. I guess running around the world in a panel isn't the feat it used to be.

meh!


My point is that despite his powerset hes been shown to be vulnerable to traps.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again for the 100th time im not ignoring it im stating that he shown differently in different comics.

His shown differently in team comics as the rest of the characters are for the sake of plot.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
1. Hes been consistently shown to be weaker.
2. I also stated that characters can be amped for the sake of a plot. Please now explain to me why we should take amped examples for the sake of the plot and ignore the weaker examples.

1) In team comics, to fit the plot as everyone else which is obvious as he gets toned down. He doesn't run as fast, doesn't hit as hard, and basically is toned down like everyone else is. This happens in Marvel too, like Thor gets toned down in Avengers. Unless you're name is Superman it usually happens.

2) We aren't ignoring any weaker examples. We are ignoring examples where the writer is obviously ignoring a part of his core power set to fit the plot.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats one way of looking at it. Wolverine has enhanced hearing but he gets jumped all the time. As far as im concerned its tough luck that heis enhanced hearing gets overlooked because its been shown 100s of times he can get jumped and sneaked up on when distracted.

Faulty comparison.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
In solo books they get amped for the sake of the plot why do we only go for the solo books?

It's because in the solo books all of his abilities are taken into account. Either way like I said it doesn't matter, because we follow the board rules, and the board rules say we use, all of their abilities, which means all of the abilities they have shown.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dont agree with you.

That's because you are just to stubborn to admit that the obvious.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You are contradicting yourself. If you are choosing to ignore JLA then you are obvoulsy ignoring that representation of his abilities.

facepalm

Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

Read the rules.

We use all of their abilities making this conversation pointless.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
His shown differently in team comics as the rest of the characters are for the sake of plot.


You know something...im not actually denying that, im telling you thats its tough luck, if hes been shown to be like that.

In some cases I suspect some writers really see the Flash that way. He isnt always toned down in JLA and has uber showings as well.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

1) In team comics, to fit the plot as everyone else which is obvious as he gets toned down. He doesn't run as fast, doesn't hit as hard, and basically is toned down like everyone else is. This happens in Marvel too, like Thor gets toned down in Avengers. Unless you're name is Superman it usually happens.

Tough luck really its still canon, its still happened consistently.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

2) We aren't ignoring any weaker examples. We are ignoring examples where the writer is obviously ignoring a part of his core power set to fit the plot.

Tough luck really its still canon, its still happened consistently.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Faulty comparison.

Of course it is, its an example of a character whos powerset is being ignored.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

It's because in the solo books all of his abilities are taken into account. Either way like I said it doesn't matter, because we follow the board rules, and the board rules say we use, all of their abilities, which means all of the abilities they have shown.

Well in JLA if they dont want to do that and even if its for the sake of the plot, then its tough luck. I hate the fact that Champion jobs but unfortunately thats the way hes been written and has been done for the sake of the plot.



Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

facepalm

Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

Read the rules.

We use all of their abilities making this conversation pointless.

The problem is CIS is also part of the forum rules and that contradicts that rule and its part of Flashes character not to go at full power.

*Sigh*

I give up after this post because at this point I believe this isn't going anywhere at all.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You know something...im not actually denying that, im telling you thats its tough luck, if hes been shown to be like that.

In some cases I suspect some writers really see the Flash that way. He isnt always toned down in JLA and has uber showings as well.

If you aren't denying it, then why do you keep disputing the fact it over and over again?

At this point I think you're arguing for no other reason just to argue.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Tough luck really its still canon, its still happened consistently.

That's an interesting way to dodge my statement.

It may be cannon, but it doesn't really matter. According to these boards, we use all of his powers as shown, which includes his perception always being on, so this just a waste of my time.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Tough luck really its still canon, its still happened consistently.

Nice way to dodge my point.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Of course it is, its an example of a character whos powerset is being ignored.

facepalm

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well in JLA if they dont want to do that and even if its for the sake of the plot, then its tough luck. I hate the fact that Champion jobs but unfortunately thats the way hes been written and has been done for the sake of the plot.

So we use Champion at his optimum levels, not when his clearly jobbing.

Flash gets toned down and some of his powers are ignored for the sake of plot in the Justice League of America comics which is obvious to everyone but yourself it seems.

Even in those comics, his perception has to be on, for his power set to work, and he has showings when it shows that his perception is clearly in play.

What don't you get?

When the need the power set, they use it and allow Wally to do amazing things, but when they don't, they don't use it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The problem is CIS is also part of the forum rules and that contradicts that rule and its part of Flashes character not to go at full power.

Take it up with the mods.

Like you said, CIS is on, meaning we take into account the character's abilities and personality, and Wally has shown on different occasions on panel that he has this ability on, and uses it. Meaning in the vs. boards we use him as having this ability constantly on, as he has consistently shown that has it on.

While all the time he does job in the team comics, it never shows him turning it off. It's just ignore altogether.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Look stop trying to twist things around like im the one with a problem here. I cant remembr exactly what you said about DS and the JLA but you didnt think that DS beating Flash PIS, you self serving hypocritical so and so. At least other posters are consistent.

Cant be arsed to get into the rest but apparently I need to prove that Nick, Punisher and Kraven are better at prep than DS.

you are the one with the problem. you tell blatant lies in an attempt to justify and defend weak arguments.

you're the hypocrite.

Originally posted by Raoul
you are the one with the problem. you tell blatant lies in an attempt to justify and defend weak arguments.

What did I lie about? Hell it was discussed three months ago, if I got what you said wrong thats just memory.

Originally posted by Raoul

you're the hypocrite.

Please get over yourself. Dont post shit like this....

Originally posted by Raoul
ok...

Deathstroke Vs the JLA:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_IdentityCrisis3pg01.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_IdentityCrisis3pg02.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_IdentityCrisis3pg03.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_IdentityCrisis3pg04.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_IdentityCrisis3pg05.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_IdentityCrisis3pg06.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_IdentityCrisis3pg07.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_IdentityCrisis3pg08.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_IdentityCrisis3pg09.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_IdentityCrisis3pg10.jpg




and then talk about how he jobs in the JLA, it could damn well be argued that the feat you posted is jobbing as well. For once just admit you dont know what you're talking about.

Lets me ask this would the Flash change his way of fighting if he knows he is not fighting powerful metahumans and that one is only moderately superhuman.

Originally posted by golem370
Lets me ask this would the Flash change his way of fighting if he knows he is not fighting powerful metahumans and that one is only moderately superhuman.

I think so.

Originally posted by golem370
Lets me ask this would the Flash change his way of fighting if he knows he is not fighting powerful metahumans and that one is only moderately superhuman.

He could well do, which is why I stated earlier on in this debate CIS is applicable. Some examples of him being punked may not be due to ignoring of powersets but him applying it accordingly to a situation.

Like Spider-Man not using full strength when dealing with human villains.

What I want to know, is how that issue got published?

I mean "Identity Crisis" was well written but that fight was just stupid. What the hell do editors get payed for?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What I want to know, is how that issue got published?

I mean "Identity Crisis" was well written but that fight was just stupid. What the hell do editors get payed for?

I at least respect the fact that you're consistent. I'll respond to your post later and im going to have to agree to an extent I think you may be right.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I at least respect the fact that you're consistent. I'll respond to your post later and im going to have to agree to an extent I think you may be right.

If you aren't consistent, you probably don't know what you're talking about or you're probably trying to dig yourself out of a hole. I found this to be the most common case in my experience.

Cool. Take you're time. I'm at work at the moment so I can't respond to any long posts, because I have to frequently close the browser from time to time. Don't want to get caught.



I knew you would eventually.

Seriously though, I understand what you're trying to say, and you do make a good argument getting you're point across, but I unfortunately don't agree. If all else fails, we can at least agree to disagree.

Fortunately, it seems I've convinced you.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What did I lie about? Hell it was discussed three months ago, if I got what you said wrong thats just memory.

you lied about what i said.



this coming from the guy who doesn't read the regular books and can't understand why they take priority.

yes, you could argue flash jobbed. that's not the point of the posts i made, even if you want it to be. flash was a minor part of that, a part i seriously didn't give two shits about.

if you honestly believe wally (or any other member of the jla) doesn't job MASSIVELY in jla moreso than they do in their own books, then it's you that doesn't know what he's talking about.

Flash has the power to defeat people of herald to trans level yet he has villains like Girder who is brick like somebody like Ironclad now on a powerlevel since doesn't make sense a speedster vs a brick but its because the fight isn't always won on power.

Yeah flash wins with ease.

With prep Kraven's beaten Hulk.

That was one epic necrobumping.