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Tolkien is considered to be one of the pioneers in "midieval" fantasies. His books has spawned many other fantasy books and inspired a lot of RPG's, video games, etc.
So, my question is: Did he invent the Orcs?
How about elves? I know he probably didn't invent them, but he may have invented them in their current form. Tall, slender and great with bows.

he may have. who knows.

he inspired his works from a lot of legends. I think the elves come from german ones.

Also his works had Christian things tied in. The Ring was like sin, tempting people. See if you people can find any more...

I think he did invent the Orcs. Their cool, which makes up for their stupidity and ugliness...

orcs are indeed ugly..but stupid?..they can be great warriors.
Dunno if he inevnted them. the orx mix with other terms (like ogres) in other legends/stories

or Troll as in Norse mythology

look master frodo there's bilbos trolls..

I wondered about that. I can't remember, was Bilbo attacked by trolls in "There and Back Again"? I remember Goblins but no trolls...

Tolkien hated people like you that would take his works and make allegorical statements with them

at the edge of the wild the trolls tried to eat them but Gandalf stopped them

but he did state that it had christian values and so forth

no he didnt read the foreword in the second edition

em, yes he did! in the foreword he only says that there is no allegories to the real world and happenings at the time (WWII and so on).

allegories PERIOD it says the outside meaning by the author is NONE

Guys does it really matter,
A) he might have said and thought it he might have not, I dunno, I do believe that he might or might not have changed his opinion on that
so there for it matters lil'
B) I don't think Tolkien would have minded it if that was just someone his "opinion" (using "'s to state that I don't know wether or not I can really call it your opinion) it is not like cpt. rex is writing it in papers or using other forms of mass media
C) most of all I think Tolkien wanted ppl to read his books and while doing so enjoying themselfs and learning a few things about life and themselves

Justaguy, please tone down that attitude. Aside from anything else you are wrong. Do not confuse subtext and allegory!

Tolkien is quoted as saying that he avoided overt Christian references in his books because the subtle approach "communicated Christian values more effectively precisely because they were less obvious."

(this lot taken from a Tolkien website)
___According to Tolkien and his close associates, the writings were grounded in an unstinting Christian conviction that, at the end of time, God would finally and forever defeat evil.
___Tolkien rooted that conviction in his own faith in Christ.
___Tolkien said the only criticism of "Lord of the Rings" that ever bothered him was that it "contained no religion."
___He described his fictional Middle Earth as "a monotheistic world of 'natural theology.'"
___The fact there are no churches, temples or religious rites and ceremonies "is simply part of the historical climate depicted" in his fiction, he said.
___"I am in any case myself a Christian," he said, even if his "Third Age" was not a Christian world.
___Tolkien believed eternal truths established in creation would be recognizable even in his fictional "sub creation."
___"We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth which is with God," he told C.S. Lewis during their late night discussion that resulted in Lewis becoming a Christian.
___More insights into the hidden spiritual currents that drive Tolkien's work are found in an acclaimed but lesser-known work, "The Silmarillion."
___The bible of Tolkien's mythical world recounts millennia of history, along with the mythological structure of Middle Earth, including an all-powerful deity, angelic beings and a version of "the fall" of some of those beings.
___The deeper framework allows Tolkien to explore profound questions of destiny and free will, the reality of evil and the task to struggle against it.

Yes, he hated allegory. But none of that WAS allegory!

yes, what Ush says. and to finish it off:

From Tolkiens Letter #142:
"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like `religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism. "

DEEP
My opinion is that he did invent the orcs becase they came from twisted elves.

or he invented that sentence...only

And to add to that, I have read somewhere that Orcs came from a word in Elven meaning "Foul" thing. Or something like that. And since he made the elven language....

he did not make elven language!! Some people play at the computer in their free time (me) and others simply invent fully functional languages(tolkien). He did set one of his languages to the elves, one of his characters and nothing more.
I'm certain i have encountered elves in older legends then tolkien's works.

I meant Elven Language: Quenya.

and Sindarin

yes, yes...he needed elements of this sort to complete his very detailed work with this whole universe. I mean elves needed languages in this thing, but this doesn't eman he invented them.

he invented the languages Sindarin and Quenya yes

Bumping. this forum WILL live again

Orcs were creatures of myth long before tolkien wrote anything.
it was his works that popularised them

Were they?

I always thought Tolkien invented them... their name was supposed to be based on some old english word I dont remember
Though if coming from OE it would have had to be written "ork" - no words derived from OE end with c

Some also think the name is related to the word "orcus", a name of the underworld...

He just gave this new name to the goblins etc that already existed in mythology and gave the creatures a new origin...

No...he didnt create orcs.

No, as Melkor did that for him

But he re-invented them for us

He infringed copyright

There was no copyright

Tolkien didn't invent hobbits (they were a mythical fey like creature) , so he may not have invented orcs.

He invented hobbit as a name for them though!

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/user_sigs/customsig_12502_V3.gif whip

The name hobbit was the only aspect of them he did not invent, whippingboy!

Thats what i said.

its quite fasinating cuz he did way b4 my sistr was born yet the likeness between her an the orcs are unbelieve able.........


i am alowed to say this cuz shes in ireland 4 the week aha

Unbelievable is one word!

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/avatars/different/mo20.gif whip


Be nice to your sister, she loves you!

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/user_sigs/customsig_30686_e9.gif whip

talking bout this to my brother earlier, he's been readin the books and from lotr story orcs are apparently 'tortured elves' and that they don't want to fight anything, just being controlled by salron or whoever that eyeball is lol, infact they want to live in peace by themselves.

but who knows, i haven't read the books and mythology had such creatures long before tolkien, as said before, he gave them a new birth

From now on, everyone must call me salron.
That name kicks so much ass

pray yes master salron!

hug Thank you

okly doke salron ... but i shall only be nice to my sis if she is nice to me

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/avatars/different/mo20.gifwhip

LORD SALRON!

ok lord salron

Oh....yeah.....

plz dont hurt the lil dough man plz he hasnt done nething to you

Hey,
Please don't the the poor topic
By leaving it alone somewhere in a corner of a thread that is blocked by spam
cry cry


Topics dont like being ignored

*hugs poor, lost topic*

Soo... this was about orcs, wasn't it
And the question whether Tolkien invented them

Fact ~ he gave them their names, but evil creatures have existed in legends thousands of years before Tolkien's orcs did (yes I say Tolkien's orcs as Melkor's are probably a lot older )



*tries to cheer topic up*

He didnt give them their names, orc was a word for an evil creature LONG before tolkiens parents, parents parents parents parents ever though 'hey, lets have a baby'


http://images.killermovies.com/forums/custom_avatars/avatar8341_14.gifwhip

bag bag

Was it....?


"Orc" sounds like somebody ate a fish that has already been dead too long

not the name, just those wonderful creatures we have come to know and love

THAT WAS GOLLUM furious

heh. So very true.

The it was him who invented the word

No...it was some ancient story teller.

~~?

i dunno ... but they r bloody ugly

my thoughts exactly...

Tolkien didnt invent orcs ok

Now are we all going to accept it
or do i need to get the whip?

Whip? ...................I'd prefer an answer

i concur...but if a whip is necessary then by all means whip that answer this way...

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/custom_avatars/avatar21828_5.gif whip


I dont know the NAME of who did it, but orc has been a name in england for evil ancient creatures for a LOOOONG time, way before tolkien.
he just popuarlised it

my guess is that during the time of the early, late and dark middle-ages...a lone traveller was accosted by an ugly hooligan and upon seeing said hooligan that he was so traumatized by his ugliness that the first words he said were an exasperation that went something like this:

"erk!!!"

and yet he lived to tell that tale and those listening may have mistaken his feared expression as a name for such a hideous beast...

btw...a little harder with the whip...

That's the Old English word I talked about, I guess

Really?

myb ....

question: is there a difference between orcs and golbins? The q is driving me crazy (kinda)

In Tolkien works, the only differance I really found was that Orcs are usually used for the Orc-breed that walk abroad, and the Goblin-breed are usually referred to when talking about Orcs in the Mountains.

Yea,
But they're supposed to be the same. People often try to find differences like "goblins are bigger", "orcs are stronger", whatever, but it's just two different names for the same thing...

The usage also depends on the book
In the Hobbit for example Tolkien uses "orcs" twice or so while in the Silmarillion he nearly only says "orcs".

yup ..

I know tolkien didn't invent elves they are from Norse mythology. They also had both normal elves and dark elves, though that isn't really relevant it's just something he used. But I don't know about orcs. It really does piss me off though that now in every other book or movie they are the terrifying monsters that the bad guys seem to have thousands of.(Seriously fantasy writers, I know that some of you are reading this, try coming up with a premice that isn't a complete rip-off. )

If I remember rightly, William Blake invented the word 'Orc' in the Book Of Urizen. I believe it was played upon as a positive creature by Blake, as it was free of inhibitions, yet it was still monstrous to look at.