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what is he, how powerful? along the lines, i'd love to hear some thoughts on BLEED and the ALE. what is the ALE's power source, for instance? FC brought in a LOT of intriguing ideas. thought it might be cool to discuss some of them. speculation welcome.

The ALE doesn't have a power source, it its meta physical formula that rids beings of their free will. Free will, from a philosophical Satriean is our ability to recognize that we are conscious beings that comprehend the changeability of the world; and consequnetly we have the ability to effect this change. The ALE presumably prevents this from happening on a conscious level; preventing the mental processes that allow ourselves to control "change". The process that allows one to recognize that we change, is prohibited by analytical form of knowledge that deludes the sentient subect now into falesly believing they are under Darksieds control. This could be analogous to fundamentalist religious zealouts acting irrationally for religious reasons. It has no power source, because power is a physical term therefore un applicable to what transcends physics. Applying a power source to it, would be as meaningless as trying count to infinity.

Mandrakk is part of a race of monitors, that exist in what is Morissons interpretation of Plato's idealism. They are conscious living entity's that exist in the higher realm where concepts, ideas and stories become one with the physical (Plato's realm of the forms). Our reality is in fact a poor reflection of the true reality, analogous to a "still- life" painting (The physical) representing an actual landscape (The realm of the monitors). All reality is subservient to this "true" realm, in which the D.C.'s Morison equivalent of God exists. Morisson's portrays D.C.'s "God" as an infinite living computer, in which the D.C. reality enacts as its data thought processes. The Monitors seem to exist in a spatial interpretation of this "Gods" thought processes. As concepts and matter unified in this hyper realm, ideas and thoughts become one with energy and matter. This seems to be what these beings (The Monitors) use to metabolize, although only in a metaphoric sense, as metabolism is a physical process. Hence they're vampiric nature. Like a Vampire that parasitically drains and metabolizes blood from others beings, the Monitors drain Ideas and concepts of the physical subservient universes. The traditional D.C. physical world is analogues to the anti realism of our fictional, mental realms that exists solely in the mind.

As Monitors can only "truly" exist in this idealistic realm, the forms that they take in the traditional D.C. universe can be considered as inferior representations, similar to the way the picture of the Mona Lisa is inferior to her true her physical form. Hence why Mandrakk went down relatively easily. Mandrakk seems to be the Meta physical representation of evil. As Morisson notes in Final Crisis origins, the Source (Which I presume is another aspect of Morisson's Monitor) is the ontological perfection of all concepts; Good and Evil. I presume that Mandrakk is the Idealistic representation of these evil conceptions taking "Sentient" form (I've put the word sentient in " because im not sure whether its a physical concept, inappropriate as a definition for a meta physical being)t.

The Monitors seem to have come into being to allow D.C.'s God to analyze the physical realm, which he "mentally" conceives. I.e. they act almost like a Freudian, Sentient Super Ego, keeping Gods "imaginative ego" in check. Superman Beyond suggests that the Prime Monitor (i.e. God) attempted this on a previous occasion, hence the original Monitor (The one depicted in the original Crisis). This first attempt seems to have backfired (creating the anti monitor); in the same way that repressed memories can inflict physiological damage upon human beings. As the time doesn't apply to the meta-physical, the "New" Morisson monitors may existed before the previous one, this is purely in a physical temporal sense, as opposed to a contingent meta physical one.

The Monitor realm represents Gods primary thoughts, with the traditional physical D.C. realm acting as his secondary ones. If you don't know what i mean by this take the following analogy, the Monitor realm is like a fictional characters direct environment, i.e. I am conceiving of Sauron in Mordor. the traditional D.C. universe, the physical realm is comparable to the thoughts of this character. i.e. Sauron contemplates how he will use the One ring to control Middle Earth. As the Prime Monitor is an all powerful God he is able give these imaginary characters free will.

Cartesian Doubt, I always enjoy reading your posts when they coincide with comic books and philosophy, mostly just 'cause I hate Cartesian logic.

I enjoyed Sartre being turned into an adjective.

But, yeah, you're pretty much right.

Although, I'd disagree that Morrison is being an idealist (I've always hated that term. It makes it sound like believing in a Platonic conception of reality makes you more optimistic. I would have preferred "idea-list," or something along those lines).

A major portion of "Superman: Beyond" is actually derived from conceits that Morrison originally crafted for "The Invisibles," particularly the idea of "fiction-suits,"; IE, the idea that by creating Fiction we are "re-creating" reality.

Take another look at the confrontation between the Judge of All Evil (before he realizes he is a Monitor) and Metron. "Think up something new... Isn't that what you're kind do?"

If Morrison was relying on a purely Platonic conception of reality, then that sort of interaction would be impossible.

Rather than the "copy of a copy" conception of art that Plato advances in Republic and various other works, Morrison advances the idea that art is actually better than the physical realm.... which, in turn, is the completion of the "greater" metaphysical reality of the Monitors. Basically, the way I see it working out is that:

1). The realm of ideas (the Monitors, Mandrakk) creates the physical world

2). The "physical" world (DC Earth and it's various multivariates) has the capacity for imagination, rather than just observing what exists

3). These worlds influence, recreate, and rebuild the realm of ideas in (1)

In essence, Morrison is subscribing to a mixture of Platonic, Existential, and Pragmatist ideas. Platonic in the sense that there actually is a world of forms from which we derive our ideals; Existential in the sense that this world of ideas and perfect conceptions actually is NOT omnipotent, but can be changed by our beliefs and actions, and thus, leaves us more or less "alone" because the Monitors are in the same place as us, and Pragmatist in the sense that, even though these truths are subjective, it is in our interest to act as if they are objective, in order to advance our goals.

I'm a little drunk, so I'm not saying exactly what I intend to, but, I'd be way down to continue this idea... particularly because I'm sure Morrison is utilizing way more ideas than we're exploring with just Western Philosophy (check out "Vimanarama" and it's utilization of Hindu beliefs if you don't believe Morrison is capable of it), and there's way, way more it it than just this.

My Tv wouldn't work,so i kicked it.

It started working.

There should be a fan movie taking off on Being John Malkovich; but instead it should be - BEING GRANT MORRISON.
Get inside that bugger's head so we can see how he views the world and make sense of his FC crap.

"Define Mandrakk and Other FC 'Stuff"

Bad writing...bad execution of story...boring crisis event.....that about covers it

Deliberately obtuse and not well executed but the themes were interesting, Cartesian Doubt covered the basic ideas well. Mandrakk and the Monitors in general are freed from Plato's "cave" and gain their power entirely from that ability to observe a more accurate reality. By extension there is also the meta-theme that we are inherently related to the Monitors.

Regarding Mandrakk, here's my question..

In 'Superman Beyond #2', Superman notes that the Monitors have Bleed tubes feeding directly from the Orrery to Mandrakk's chamber - so they have a constant supply of the multiverse's 'lifeblood' for him to feed on (vampirism on an abstractual level.) That said, is it possible Mandrakk's feeding has been preventing the expansion of the multiverse (being that it was prophesized to grow into a megaverse during '52'?) Certainly, feasting on the bounty produced by the Bleed's 'flaw' isn't going to leave the multiverse in a particularly 'grothy' state.

amIright?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
My Tv wouldn't work,so i kicked it.

It started working.

whoa, slow down. Representation of Plato's theories and ideas within the comic book medium is a fairly straight forward concept.....

....but your TV started working again? After a kick?

Originally posted by Galan007
Certainly, feasting on the bounty produced by the Bleed's 'flaw' isn't going to leave the multiverse in a particularly 'grothy' state.

amIright?

Well it would be more clear if you used a real adjective.

WOW new word! "Grothy" is a fantastic term!!!!

Definition, please?

Originally posted by willRules
whoa, slow down. Representation of Plato's theories and ideas within the comic book medium is a fairly straight forward concept.....

....but your TV started working again? After a kick?

It's a metaphor that encapsulates every single theme present in Final crisis.


How did you not understand that?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
It's a metaphor that encapsulates every single theme present in Final crisis.


How did you not understand that?

I have a new found respect for you, sir.

Originally posted by willRules
WOW new word! "Grothy" is a fantastic term!!!!

Definition, please? Sort of late on that one, buddy.

How about the New Gods's very existence being representative of the concepts they embody? Like Orion being the god of the fight, Desaad being the god of corruption and torture, Granny being the god of fanaticism (AFAIK) and DS himself being the concept of evil personified.

I think having them actually being portrayed as inscrutable and beyond mortal perceptions was one of the best parts.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
How about the New Gods's very existence being representative of the concepts they embody? Like Orion being the god of the fight, Desaad being the god of corruption and torture, Granny being the god of fanaticism (AFAIK) and DS himself being the concept of evil personified.

I think having them actually being portrayed as inscrutable and beyond mortal perceptions was one of the best parts.

Only if you ignore their inscrutability and the many standards by which pretty much anyone can judge them as evil (or at least taking immoral actions).

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Only if you ignore their inscrutability and the many standards by which pretty much anyone can judge them as evil (or at least taking immoral actions).

Hmm ok

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
How about the New Gods's very existence being representative of the concepts they embody? Like Orion being the god of the fight, Desaad being the god of corruption and torture, Granny being the god of fanaticism (AFAIK) and DS himself being the concept of evil personified.

I think having them actually being portrayed as inscrutable and beyond mortal perceptions was one of the best parts.

This was an idea that I thought Morisson was going to Introduce, but fails at miserably. As the Monitors metaphorically act as the conceptual/incarnataion of "Gods" Super Ego, the New Gods were going to act as the embodiements of concepts such as war(Orion), Restriction/Autocracy(Darksied), Freedome(Mister Miracle), Light(Lightray) etc. Or maybe in a more Hegellian Idealistic sense, i.e. they are the meta-physical, conceptual incantions of our own thoughts. They exist in a "higher vibratory" reality, because they are beyond physics in a sense that they are a hybrid between concepts and matter.

Originally posted by Galan007
Regarding Mandrakk, here's my question..

In 'Superman Beyond #2', Superman notes that the Monitors have Bleed tubes feeding directly from the Orrery to Mandrakk's chamber - so they have a constant supply of the multiverse's 'lifeblood' for him to feed on (vampirism on an abstractual level.) That said, is it possible Mandrakk's feeding has been preventing the expansion of the multiverse (being that it was prophesized to grow into a megaverse during '52'?) Certainly, feasting on the bounty produced by the Bleed's 'flaw' isn't going to leave the multiverse in a particularly 'grothy' state.

amIright?

IMO the bleed acts as a metaphoric interpretation of the primordial supe, in which life formed. Morison's has done his philosophy home work, as its clear he is well aware of Humes attack on the principles of sufficient reason. The Bleed acts as the medium in which nothing becomes something, the nonexistent, starts to exist. No wonder Morisson refers to its unimaginable power, its the medium in which the illogical, counter intuitive occurs. we can see why its so hard to harness by anything physical, and therefore governed by the principles of sufficient reason.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
IMO the bleed acts as a metaphoric interpretation of the primordial supe, in which life formed. Morison's has done his philosophy home work, as its clear he is well aware of Humes attack on the principles of sufficient reason. The Bleed acts as the medium in which nothing becomes something, the nonexistent, starts to exist. No wonder Morisson refers to its unimaginable power, its the medium in which the illogical, counter intuitive occurs. we can see why its so hard to harness by anything physical, and therefore governed by the principles of sufficient reason. Good post. However, none of that answers my question.

Originally posted by Galan007
Regarding Mandrakk, here's my question..

In 'Superman Beyond #2', Superman notes that the Monitors have Bleed tubes feeding directly from the Orrery to Mandrakk's chamber - so they have a constant supply of the multiverse's 'lifeblood' for him to feed on (vampirism on an abstractual level.) That said, is it possible Mandrakk's feeding has been preventing the expansion of the multiverse (being that it was prophesized to grow into a megaverse during '52'?) Certainly, feasting on the bounty produced by the Bleed's 'flaw' isn't going to leave the multiverse in a particularly 'grothy' state.

amIright?

I wondered the same thing.

But on a similar theme, how does the fact that the Wildstorm Universe, which is clearly one of the 52, and its possession of the "snow-flake," with a universe for each "atom present in the world" (thus making trillions upon trillions of alternate universes), make sense?

Unless, of course, each of the 52 "Universes" is indeed a multiverse of its own.

Originally posted by tjcoady
Unless, of course, each of the 52 "Universes" is indeed a multiverse of its own. This is how I believe DC's creation will eventually be defined - I mean, with things like the whole of Wildstorm tied to the mainstream DCU, how can it not? But now I'm wondering if Mandrakk's insatiable 'Bleed-craving' is why DC's stated growth has taken so long to come about? Imo, something along those lines would tie that part of things in quite nicely. And if something like that were to happen, it would definitely solidify an uber ranking for Mandrakk.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is how I believe DC's creation will eventually be defined - I mean, with things like the whole of Wildstorm tied to the mainstream DCU, how can it not? But now I'm wondering if Mandrakk's insatiable 'Bleed-craving' is why DC's stated growth has taken so long to come about? Imo, something along those lines would tie that part of things in quite nicely. And if something like that were to happen, it would definitely solidify an uber ranking for Mandrakk.

Yeah, that's the thing. It makes perfect sense, in terms of structure, plot, and characterization: and it would tidy up everything.

There's just no actual statement that this was what's going on. And unless Grant gets around to writing his big "gee whiz! It's the Multiverse! I f***ing love the Silver Age!" storyline he's been promising for a while, I doubt we'll ever see one.

Very true.