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Winna?

Selene 5/10

Selene will get pwned by telepathy, that's like her only real weakness. A telepath that's stronger then her.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Selene will get pwned by telepathy, that's like her only real weakness. A telepath that's stronger then her.

And Exodus isn't that telepath.

You sure want to bet on that?

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
And Exodus isn't that telepath.

If Daniel Moonstar can do it then Exodus can with ease.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
If Daniel Moonstar and Rachel No Phoenix Summers Grey can do it then Exodus can with ease.

Rachel did it with the phoenix force, didn't she?

Never saw Daniel Moonstar do it -.-

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Rachel did it with the phoenix force, didn't she?

Never saw Daniel Moonstar do it -.-

Not the second time, but then again that's iffy so I'll give you that.

The Dani thing happened in New Mutants. Emma had to save Selene from Dani.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not the second time, but then again that's iffy so I'll give you that.

The Dani thing happened in New Mutants. Emma had to save Selene from Dani.

-.-

Who wrote that?

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
-.-

Who wrote that?

Chris Claremont.

Selene got chased away by Xavier as well telepathically.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Chris Claremont.

Selene got chased away by Xavier as well telepathically.

yeah, I know. Hardly a feat that would warrant Exodus a telepathic victory.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
yeah, I know. Hardly a feat that would warrant Exodus a telepathic victory.

Considering he was toying with Post-Upgrade Xavier in Legacy and then messed up both Pre-Upgrade Xavier and Jean(Twice) I'd say it does considering Selenes telepathic feats at best are like Psylocke level.

Maybe C&C on X-Force will fix that but so far can't see her winning telepathically.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Considering he was toying with Post-Upgrade Xavier in Legacy and then messed up both Pre-Upgrade Xavier and Jean(Twice) I'd say it does considering Selenes telepathic feats at best are like Psylocke level.

Maybe C&C on X-Force will fix that but so far can't see her winning telepathically.

Toying with him? did you read these comics?

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Toying with him? did you read these comics?

Did you?

X-Men Legacy #209

Exodus: "Xavier you only live by my mercy and my power! And now-- what? You seek to challenge me, on this psychic plane? I am not your enemy. But if you force me to this, I swear I'll destroy what's left of your mind."

X-Men Legacy #210
Magneto attempts to attack Exodus with a pole, Exodus blasts him with a TK bolt. If Exodus wanted to he could have crushed Xaviers skull with his telekinesis but he didn't. Because he didn't want Xavier dead, he wanted Xavier to lead the Acolytes, he believes that mutantkind needed a leader like Xavier.

Xavier: "These wounds are illusionary."
That entire issue, all Exodus did was use illusions to coax Xavier into his way of thinking.

Exodus: "Do you yield to me or must I go one?"

Exodus: "You misunderstand me. I didn't bring you here in order to fight me. I did those things, all of them because I want you to lead the acolytes."

Xavier: "Are you mad, after what you put me through"

Exodus: "I showed you what you needed to see"

Karima "Exodus had you beaten, you were losing etc..what happened back there?"

Xavier "His strategy was to show me my folly...every scrap of guilt that could be laid at his door. But the man who made those mistakes is dead..."

Exodus wasn't trying to fight him there, he was trying to coax him. He toyed with him the entire issue, needling him about how he was wrong and Magneto was right. And how changing his ways would have saved millions of lives.

As for the fight, she'd lose because her TP feats aren't great. I wanted to start up a respect thread and had all her appearances scanned onto my PC but I never had the time. I might to it after she's dealt with in X-Force.

Originally posted by wannabe
Selene 5/10

I see what you did there.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Did you?

X-Men Legacy #209

Exodus: "Xavier you only live by my mercy and my power! And now-- what? You seek to challenge me, on this psychic plane? I am not your enemy. But if you force me to this, I swear I'll destroy what's left of your mind."

X-Men Legacy #210
Magneto attempts to attack Exodus with a pole, Exodus blasts him with a TK bolt. If Exodus wanted to he could have crushed Xaviers skull with his telekinesis but he didn't. Because he didn't want Xavier dead, he wanted Xavier to lead the Acolytes, he believes that mutantkind needed a leader like Xavier.

Xavier: "These wounds are illusionary."
That entire issue, all Exodus did was use illusions to coax Xavier into his way of thinking.

Exodus: "Do you yield to me or must I go one?"

Exodus: "You misunderstand me. I didn't bring you here in order to fight me. I did those things, all of them because I want you to lead the acolytes."

Xavier: "Are you mad, after what you put me through"

Exodus: "I showed you what you needed to see"

Karima "Exodus had you beaten, you were losing etc..what happened back there?"

Xavier "His strategy was to show me my folly...every scrap of guilt that could be laid at his door. But the man who made those mistakes is dead..."

Exodus wasn't trying to fight him there, he was trying to coax him. He toyed with him the entire issue, needling him about how he was wrong and Magneto was right. And how changing his ways would have saved millions of lives.

As for the fight, she'd lose because her TP feats aren't great. I wanted to start up a respect thread and had all her appearances scanned onto my PC but I never had the time. I might to it after she's dealt with in X-Force.

I know what took place in the comics. The way you use "toying with him" makes it seem like Exodus was superior to Xavier, when this couldn't be further from the truth. Of what relevance is "Exodus could've beaten Xavier with his TK" to this discussion mind you? Killing a defenceless man is hardly something worth boasting about, nor is it OF ANY RELEVANCE to this thread.

Exodus' intentions are irrelevant. He might THINK he is superior to Xavier, but not wanting to kill him does not warrant superiority. Interpret it any way you like, but it's a far cry from evidence that Exodus is superior telepathically. In fact, did not Emma Frost stalemate him with her telepathy?

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I know what took place in the comics. The way you use "toying with him" makes it seem like Exodus was superior to Xavier, when this couldn't be further from the truth. Of what relevance is "Exodus could've beaten Xavier with his TK" to this discussion mind you? Killing a defenceless man is hardly something worth boasting about, nor is it OF ANY RELEVANCE to this thread.

Exodus' intentions are irrelevant. He might THINK he is superior to Xavier, but not wanting to kill him does not warrant superiority. Interpret it any way you like, but it's a far cry from evidence that Exodus is superior telepathically. In fact, did not Emma Frost stalemate him with her telepathy?

Of course he was superior, the entire time Xavier was on the floor clutching his head. Exodus was superior to Xavier and Jean in Bloodties.

Of what relevance? Exodus was holding back that's the relevance.

Do you really want to go there? Emma pwned Xavier twice since his return with the upgrade. In a fight with Exodus she contained his TK by sacrificing her Diamond Form something Xavier wasn't able to do (Mike Carey wrote both scenarios). But she still needed Dust to finish him off. What's your point?

Oh and Exodus was also superior to Pre-Upgraded Xavier, you know the one that telepathically attacked Selene and caused her to flee. So what relevance does it have in this thread? It means Exodus is better then Selene telepathically. But we already knew that since Dani > Selene telepathically.

You don't know what you're talking about.

1. Getting his brain repaired isn't upgrade. What is hard about that to understand?
2. Xavier wasn't fighting Emma in their recent encounter. And ih they did, he'd pwn her like Sinister.
3. Xavier did contain Exodus's TK as well. Exodus wasn't able to move or react consciously to real world around him, nor use TX afains Charles.
4. It took all Exodus' powers to 'make Xavier clutch his head'. Why do we know that? Because his brain activity and energy output was being measured.
5. It was a telepathic battle with all advantages on Bennet's side, since he could use Xavier's own memories against him. And he got pwned with single counterattack, while Xavier shrugged his attacks off.

Originally posted by Survivor19
You don't know what you're talking about.

I'm really not trying to be rude here, especially 'cause I don't even remember you as a user but:



http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=30430170yt4.jpg




Emma wasn't fighting Xavier in their recent encounters either. He still got pwned twice.

Umm he didn't pwn Sinister, he needed Shaw and Gambit to destroy the machine in order to defeat Sinister.



Eh...no he used it against Magneto.



Let me get back to you on this I will check if she was measuring their limits or energy output.

Just checked, Karima was measuring the output, she didn't say they reached their limits.



Xavier didn't shrug of shit until right at the end, all Exodus did was show him illusions because he wanted Charles alive. Charles broke through the illusion at the end through metaphor. If Exodus wanted him dead, he wouldn't have bothered to repair his brain, or make him the leader of the acolytes or you know he would have used more then illusions against him.

I believe having brains splattered inside one's head and then repaired can count as somewhat of a downgrade.

True. Still, his TK was verily contained. He couldn't choke AMgento with it, or attack Xavier with it.

Karima did said she wasn't sure if they both'll make out of it alive. I'd like to say it means they were both at their limit.


Oh, really? 'Casting illusions on' IS a telepathic battle, that's why i told you you didn't know what you are talking about. They WERE attack meant to get past Xavier's defences amd make him submit.
And it didn't work.

I will repeat this.
Exodus was forced into TP battle by Xavier, and could only fight via his TP. He attacked Xavier, repeatedly, but all it got Charles to put him on knees and dead to rights was 1 mindblast. It's crystal clear who is superior TP.

BTW, can you give me the first instance Emma 'pwned' Xavier?

Originally posted by Survivor19
I believe having brains splattered inside one's head and then repaired can count as somewhat of a downgrade.

Not according to Mike Carey since Exodus did a pretty damn good job.

I gave you the wrong link btw here's the right one:
http://www.comicsbulletin.com/features/1201196023194.htm



He couldn't use any TK when Emma fought him. I think he blasted Magneto with a fairly large TK blast, he didn't want to attack/hurt Xavier as stated in the issues many times. He wanted Xavier to lead in Magnetos place that's why he didn't attack Xavier Telekinetically or go all out Telepathically.



She said I don't think they'll both survive it. Meaning either one will live or both would die...and Magneto had to explain what it was to her so her knowledge on psi is limited. And I wouldn't say it means they're both at their limits.



No it isn't because as stated by Exodus, he wanted to show Xavier the error in his ways so that he could lead the Acolytes. Guilt him into being more like Magneto. They weren't attacks because Exodus as stated many times didn't want Xavier dead it goes against the premise of the entire arc....look at the Sinister/Xavier fight to see attacks (Also written by Mike Carey). You'll see astral dragons, astral shields and loads more metaphor (The pages I'm referring to are both drawn by Scot Eaton)

They weren't mean to get past his defences they were meant to get him to change his ethos. Xavier's blood vessels were about to pop (Stated by Karima) and Exodus asked him to yield. Exodus could have ended that earlier.



Correct



False. The issue makes this clear as does his attack on Magneto.



False he tried to coax Xavier. Compare this with the fight against Sinister.



False again, he broke out of an illusion an attacked Exodus with a mindblast. Exodus did not mind blast him once in the fight because he didn't want him dead. He didn't kill Xavier with TK because he didn't want him dead.

Exodus wasn't badly hurt after that mindblast just like in bloodties he got right back up. Bennit would have killed him had he wanted to.





World War Hulk: X-Men #2

This is post-upgrade.

Her first time was in her first appearance where she captured and sedated him but that was off-panel so we don't talk about it.

Ok. I see what you're thinking.

I'm also using battle with Sinister as reference. But i'm making another conclusions from it.
Both Essex and Bennet during the fight threw Xavier into 'reliving' his memories. Since that was obviously an attack for Sinister (who was trying to kill him), it is an attack for Bennet as well.
Using guilt as weapon to make opponent drop his guard and maje him vulnerable is old and valid tactic in TP battles. Bennet used that as well.

False, he was fighting him.
Because when one tries to coax, he just does that.
Bennet had intention of recruiting Xavier to his cause, but the fight broke out before he got to them. In the fight he was trying to defeat Xavier and break free from Astral plane to use his full abilities. He said at the beginning of the fight himself:
"If you force me to this, i swear i'll destroy what is left of your mind".
So, they WERE fighting, both of them.
And Bennet didn't have a chance of killing Charles, since he was owned by him.

Originally posted by Survivor19
Ok. I see what you're thinking.

I'm also using battle with Sinister as reference. But i'm making another conclusions from it.
Both Essex and Bennet during the fight threw Xavier into 'reliving' his memories. Since that was obviously an attack for Sinister (who was trying to kill him), it is an attack for Bennet as well.
Using guilt as weapon to make opponent drop his guard and maje him vulnerable is old and valid tactic in TP battles. Bennet used that as well.

Emma also made Xavier relive his memories. Xavier has made Wolverine relive past memories it wasn't an attack.

Nor was it an attack as stated by Sinister it was a divergence tactic. IRRC Sinister says he put Xavier in a psychic loop so he would be preoccupied elsewhere. Sinister wrote himself into Xavier's DNA, so when the machine was activated he would usurp Charle's body, the process was meant to be instantaneous but Xavier was strong enough to resist. The illusions were to distract him in order to wrestle control off his nervous system but even then he didn't give in. Sinister convinced him to sacrifice himself in order to save Cain and Shaw from being usurped.

In the final issue Sinister says again that Xavier is preoccupied elsewhere by a psychic loop. Which is actually different to what Exodus was trying to do since he didn't place him in a loop.

Once Charles broke out of it, we see Astral Hands, Astral Dragons, Astral Shields and an Astral Fight. Which is something we've see in most Astral Fights, Psychic Armour like in Karma vs. SK or Jean vs. Gamemaster or Xavier vs. SK or Psylocke vs. SK or Jean vs. Psylocke, Emma vs. Mastermind, Sinister vs. The X-Men, SK vs. The X-Men, Jean and Psylocke vs. SK.



No, if he was fighting him then so was Emma since she also took him through a painful walkthrough in the Walkthrough arc.
Bennit wasn't trying to kill Xavier. That's why he asked him to yield and lead the Acolytes.

He had access to both TP and TK in the fight that is fact, don't know where you're getting this Carey isn't Grant Morrison complex.

Yes before that he said you're not my enemy. And again he asked him to yield and tried to get him to see the error in his ethos.

Of course he would have had he wanted him dead, had he attacked him with a mind blast or TK blast instead of making him relive his mistakes in order to coax him.

Bennit wanted him alive that is fact as well. That is the whole premise of the arc.